BOOKS BY ANANTA Welcome to Satsang with Ananta

We were talking about the instruction on Self-Realization, which is the first chapter of the Ashtavakra Gita, where Janaka said ‘Master, how is Knowledge to be achieved, detachment acquired and liberation attained?’

What is this Knowledge with a capital ‘K’? It must be pointing to that which is true, the truth.

What is it we can truly say is the truth?

What can we define as the truth?

Because this is the only kind of Knowledge which will point directly. So, that which is unchanging, timeless, and verifiable. What is the point of that which cannot be found directly? If it is not direct, verifiable, then it is just like saying that the Earth is so much distance away from the sun. We cannot directly verify it; at least right now without the instruments.

So, this ability to find this true Knowledge for ourself must be important. So, we’re moving away from conceptual knowledge with a small ‘k’ and moving toward direct recognition of the truth, coming to the Knowledge of who we are in the most direct way.

So, this is Knowledge. This is Knowledge which I’m presuming that Janaka wanted.

Q: I want to check with you about Awareness being Aware of Itself. I don´t know actually what to say, but something was pushing here to come up. How it is experienced here…, (there is an urge here that you jump in, when something is not right here. You know what I mean?)  [Laughing] So, Awareness being Aware of Itself. [Pause] The experience here is somehow that when the attention is going to Awareness being Aware of Itself, only This is. There is no content; no content can be experienced.

A: Actually, can we make it even simpler? Can I help to try to make it even simpler?

Q: Yes, please.

A: So, like we were sharing earlier, we can say that ‘I am aware of the sense of Being’. For you, you can make a statement like that, you can say ‘I am Aware. Of course, I am aware of the sense of Being which is here’. But in that statement what are we really saying? We are really saying that ‘I am aware of this Awareness, which is aware of the sense of Being’. So, already Awareness is aware of Itself.

Q: Yes.

A: Not Itself in any tangible way, not Itself in some attributional way, but just to be able to say ‘I am aware of Being’. It means first I must be aware of what Awareness is. Isn´t it?

Q: Yes, of course.

A: Yes. Therefore I must be aware of this Awareness. Therefore this ‘I’ is seen also to be not separate from Awareness itself. I say ‘Awareness aware of Itself’.

Q: I forgot. What did you say? [Laughing]

A: It´s okay.

Q: Not the last sentence, but the sentence before the last sentence felt strange.  [Laughing] I forgot…

A: So, when we say ‘Awareness aware of Itself’ it is not with the sense of duality, (although in the words it can sound like it´s a bit dual or something).

Q: No.

A: It is just with the simplicity of seeing that there is Awareness of something (including Awareness of Being) already implies that Awareness is aware of this Awareness, which is aware of Being. You see? It is not blind to Itself in that way.

Q: No. Yeah, that´s my point. [Laughing] Here I want to jump in. Awareness by Itself is everything. It doesn´t need this content of Beingness. But the experience here is somehow flowing, you know? There is just a flowing going on. [Laughing] Awareness and Beingness as such are not separate in that sense, and yet (like you always say) the quality is very different. Because Awareness doesn´t have any quality; Beingness has quality. And there is a flowing going on, you know, when there is only Awareness here. There are times when there is really only Awareness without even Beingness.

A: Okay, can we pause on this one for a second, just to clarify this?

Q: Yes.

A: There are two types of experiences where we can say something like that. One is that which we call deep sleep. That there is just Awareness here, there is no content, there is no Being, there is no quality. So, of course, within the sleep state we cannot say anything at all, because there is no Being, but it is our experience of sleep, we can say.

There is another experience, which is called turiya or some very high levels of meditation where it can seem like there is no Being. But actually what is the difference between this turiya state and the sleep state is that there is a glimmer, there is a tiny strand of Beingness which is still there. So, it doesn´t seem like I am asleep. But it still feels like there is no Being, there is only Awareness here. This is what the sages in the past have called the turiya state, highly meditated state, where even the sense of Being is very, very transparent. You cannot really find it. It´s a very thin strand. And yet it is different from sleep.

Q: Yes, and when I listen to you now, it gets very clear. Even when Awareness is totally in the foreground somehow, the Beingness must be very subtle there; because when it is not there you would just sleep, like you said. But I am not sleeping. There is no sleep there then.

Yeah, this was somehow the clarification. And in This, you know, it´s flowing. It is just flowing. It is not something stable. There is just, from this Awareness it is just flowing to neutral Beingness.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much!

A: Thank you.

Let me say what my expectation for you is (because I keep hearing expectations that everyone has for me…, [Chuckles] ‘Give me freedom, take away this, give me that’). So can I say, before we start this time, [after the break of 10 days due to Mooji retreat] what I want you to do? And it’s more of an invitation actually. The invitation is to really look deeply. Just to Look. Look without interpretation and judgement as much as possible. Look without conclusions. Can we do this? Just to look. And to discover whether this looking is all there is; or whether there is a deeper looking which is looking even at this, looking at Itself. If this attention is all there is; or if there is awareness even of this attention.

Just to look like this. And no running to conclusions, no running to debating, no running to any sort of judgment about ourself, the rest of the sangha or the rest of the world. Just to look like this.

Because what happens when we are in satsang also many times (and in the rest of life) is that we are running away from this looking. Our conclusions also are a ‘running away’. Conclusions are a very tricky; running away from just looking because there can be a sense of fear of wobbliness which comes in this looking and then we’re quick to come to a conclusion ‘Yes, this is what I saw. Yes, this is the truth; I got it! No, then I lost it’. You see? Even the getting it, losing it; all of this game is part of the same running away from What Is. And some of us have been exploring like this.

So, can we say now, that this time my expectation from you [Chuckles] (It’s not real, but I want to say it) [Laughs] is that we just look? All of us look together at what is going on. What is this really about? And we continue our way of questioning and say ‘What is it that is really going on? What do I want?’ To be able to look like this and to see…, ‘Is it that I truly just want to Be?’ Because many will say like this ‘I just want to exist’. But nothing is stopping your existence. To exist, what is it that we need to just Be? What is it that we need?

It comes automatically, isn’t it? Beingness. It comes on its own. So, if it was just the will to Be, the will to exist, then there is nothing that we need. Consciousness is being conscious right now. Isn’t it?

Is it just a will to Be, or do we want something?

Do we want to feed this sense of Beingness something specific?

(If you start to lose me, tell me.) We said that ‘To just Be, nothing is needed’. Then where does need come from? Need must come from a specific idea that this Beingness needs this additional quality or something phenomenal for it to become better. But in our looking, have we seen that Being actually becomes better or less better? Can it be? Being is just Being.

So what is it about? Is it possible that this Being Itself is playing one big game with us/with Itself? This game of pretending to be something personal; and this game of dropping the seeming-sense of ‘person’? Is it possible?

I also feel like I must not make so many conclusions. [Chuckles] Advaita is very absolute-ist, so it’s very easy to just say ‘This. This. This’. Sometimes it is helpful, and sometimes it just becomes another concept. So, what if I just propose ideas to you, concepts to you, and then you explore those concepts for yourself and look deeply?

‘Could it be that this is true?’

‘Why would Consciousness want to do this game?’

‘What is it getting out of it?’

‘Why would it want to take all the trouble of the pretense of personhood, and then all the trouble of the dropping of the pretense?’

‘Even if it is the urge to drop the pretense, why does it have to go through all this rigmarole of satsang for years and years?’

‘If it wants to drop the pretense, it should just drop it’. [Chuckles]

So, look; before we come to any conclusions, before we want to say that ‘Yes, yes. This is how it is. This is what it is’.

So, what have we said? We said that ‘If it was just about wanting to exist, then nothing can prevent that wanting; nothing can prevent that existing’. And when there is tiredness of this existence also, then sleep comes. We go from this time and space into something which is timeless. So, it is immaterial there whether we say we slept for one second or for a million years. As long as there is no urge to experience or exist, it doesn’t arise again. (We call it an ‘urge’ but I don’t know what the accurate term is.) But when the urge is back, then again this Being comes into existence and the so-called day happens, our waking state happens.

So, if this is all there is, just the urge to exist, then that is fulfilled on its own. So, surrender must be this, just to say that ‘All I want is to just Be. I don’t want to direct the flow of this day in any way’. Let’s not even say ‘Life’ because we don’t even know anything about life. This might be the only day we experience. To direct the flow of this day is the opposite of surrender. Because just to Be must be just a simple surrender. Being already IS.

I’m very happy whenever I hear anyone say that ‘I’m allowing this burning to happen’. This allowing is very important. This allowing is IT actually. We’re allowing the moment to unfold as it is unfolding. Allowing is the opposite of ego. Because resistance means ego. Allowing our own reactions also.

She was saying also before…, not to fall into the trap of belief in guilt. With integrity, you see? There’s a fine line (but from the ultimate perspective it is also irrelevant). The fine line is that Advaita is very useful if our urge is for full freedom. But Advaita can also be very harmful if you are looking for excuses. So, this allowing; this ‘Everything is just happening’ can also become a very potent excuse, because anything that we do, we can just say ‘I’m not the doer’.

That is why, in the play, this integrity. I used to always get confused when [Nisargadatta] Maharaj used to say ‘You must have full integrity’. I’d go ‘Who is here to have full integrity? Isn’t this contrary to what he’s been saying in the rest of the book? Where does this integrity come from?’ Then I realized why the pointer is made, because we don’t run away from our looking, we don’t fall for any concepts, some excuse. And Advaita can give us the best excuses.

So, like I said at the beginning of satsang, my invitation now is just ‘Can we look without conclusions? Can we look without proclamations? Can we just look at what this is?’

We’re truly here just to look; to look at the looking. Who is aware of looking? How many of us experience this world? How many of us actually See? How is this world experienced? Most of humanity is saying ‘Outside, then thought, then pain, then some other visual comes outside’. It’s a very scattered sort of existence. Just to see this itself is very useful.

He asked me ‘What is it that changes or seems to have changed?’ [for Anantaji] One is this; that it doesn’t seem so scattered now. Of course, thoughts still come, feelings still come, sensations still come. But there is memory of where it used to be one second here, one second thought, one second feeling, one second idea or something, one second this will to do something. It’s a very scattered sort of existence. And most of us don’t even realize we live like that. We have to be able to see ‘What is really happening? One second I’m with the words that someone is saying, one second I’m with my thoughts, the next second I’m with the pain in the body, the next second I’m with this…’ It’s a flow like that. Then the flow sort of stream-lines also, in a way.

As we just look, and we’re not buying the voice of the interpreter anymore, then it can seem much more settled, much more relaxed.

Q: I don´t want to hide anymore. I don´t know what to say, but I feel to come up. Yesterday I wrote something on Heart Altar [A message to Ananta] and it is still here and there is still the feeling here that I can´t drop it completely. On the other side the mind tells me ‘Oh, come on, it´s nothing’ and stuff like ‘You don´t have to come up, it´s all good; all will be sorted out by itself’. You know? And I don´t know what to say actually, but I don´t want to hide anymore.

A: Yes.

Q: I don´t know what to do.

A: Yes. So, let me share a little bit about what you are speaking about. So, there was a sense that, the experiences that we went through in our lives as children (or something like this) now we don´t want our children to experience the same thing. And actually in the trying to protect them sometimes we can take it too far.

[Speaking to sangha] This is what was bothering her also; that in trying to protect them from things that could happen in the world we take our protective instinct too far (is the feeling that she had) that she took it a bit too far. And that´s why maybe the children are more fearful then they should be or she is experiencing more fear.

Q: I am sorry, I am even in this controlling thing. It´s somehow controlling and it doesn´t feel natural anymore, what is here and also with the kids. So, you summarize it very beautifully.

A: Thank you. So, what to do now that something had revealed itself and it still seems to have some life? Actually, it is grace which has showed us; because many times we go through our entire life and we don´t see the conditioning, we don´t see the tendencies which are operating. We only go through life with the sense of righteousness. But here what is happening is that through the grace of satsang, through the Satguru´s grace, you are able to see that maybe this is what the tendency is which is playing here, the conditioning which is playing here.

Then the point comes that ‘Okay, but I saw it and it is still not going, it is still not that light, it is still not dropped’. And the mind wants to come in and say ‘No, no, it´s dropped now. Forget it’. Things like this. But actually when something like this reveals itself we must allow for it to burn. We must allow ourselves to feel vulnerable, to feel scared, to feel guilty. All these sensations will come. Don´t try to fight it away. Because we are talking about these long term tendencies, this long term conditioning, you see.

So, allow yourself to burn in this fire. Don´t run away from it too soon. And you’ll find that actually it is true that in your seeing it, it is losing its power. But we don´t have to expect it to be in a finger-snap. It can take some time, it can take a few days for it to settle, for us to see. Because it´s a beautiful realization actually. And one day you will be very grateful that you were able to see this. And the mind will come and say ‘No, no, it´s too late, it´s too late’. It´s not too late; it´s never too late. It is beautiful whenever it happens. So, as we see ourselves in this way (and I was talking to some other mothers also) in that, as these tendencies are being seen, and in the light of your seeing, they will be dissolved. It might take some time. It´s okay.

Then you’ll find that your children are finding the blessing of having an un-associated being as their mother, having a courageous mother who is open to look at all of these things. Because it takes some courage. So, I am very happy for your children actually, because although these might be some tough times right now, you´ll find the truth of this grace and you´ll find much more openness and fearlessness in your relationships with each other. That is where true love can blossom, you see. Otherwise, if you are just coming from a place of fear all of the time then it is not love; it is more of ownership, it is more of fear and guilt.

So, now you see this. Now don´t run from this. Allow it to burn. I am with you through this. Nothing which is real will be burned. Allow all of this to burn itself. Then you’ll find that very soon the fuel for this burning is running out because you’re not feeding it with your concepts, your ideas. All of our past ideas are being burned now. We are here for this, to allow this conditioning to burn. Sometimes slow fire, sometimes intense heat but we are not to run from this situation. It´s an unfolding and we must allow this unfolding. [Silence]

I don’t want to give you any reassurance. Because if I give you reassurance then it seems like I take the fire out of the burning. [Chuckles] Sometimes you must allow this fire to burn, because all that is burning like this is beautiful; because it´s maybe lifetimes worth of conditioning And it´s breaking away a deep cycle of conditioning, then future conditioning and then it can go on endlessly, even in the phenomenal play. But I can tell you that if you allow this to unfold, to just remain with the witnessing of it, then the kids (and the world actually) is very lucky to be in your Presence because you had the courage to let this come and let it go.

You know, actually satsang should be like this…, [chuckles]  it should be:

‘There’s nothing you can do to be free.’

And the next line should be:

‘You must constantly strive for freedom.’

[Laughs]

‘You are not the doer at all’ but ‘You must do the inquiry’

[Laughter]

We must reduce the gaps between the contradictions [Laughs] then we’ll know what we’re really talking about. [Laughs]

Why is it like this? Why is it like this? Because to come to a point of neutrality, I require sometimes a whack from the left and sometimes a whack from the right. Otherwise, we go this way too much or we go that way too much. So, to keep the neutrality, we say ‘This way’ sometimes; then go to ‘No, no, too much to the left. Come to the right’. I have to whack from both sides so we keep the center. There’s a Guruji [Moojiji] satsang that says ‘Keep your eyes on the road’. Sometimes I say ‘Nothing you can do’ and sometimes I say ‘What are you doing? Do the inquiry’.

So, what are you doing here in satsang? If you’re trying to calculate your way out of the contradictions of satsang, you will not be able to. Because there is no verbal truth to be spoken. There is nothing can be said. If there was something that could just be said and that would lead to your freedom, that would be just published; done. ‘You don’t need a living master, you don’t need anything; just one book’. And they would have figured it out. How long have humans been on this Earth? A few million years? So somebody would have figured it out: ‘This is the master key to freedom’.

It doesn’t work like that. Because what is being ‘worked at’ is the fundamental presumption that we all end up making which is that ‘I must be a separate individual’. And there is nothing that the individual would want more than something like a master key. It is only making the sense of being an individual stronger.

So anytime you feel like you found the way, you got it now, know that it is not true.

[Someone asked: ‘Ananta, how is it for you?’ then someone made a joke about super-powers and laughter happened until this next question came]

Q: Can you tell me how a master lives?

A: I don’t know. I can tell you what seemingly-changed here, without using any labels like ‘master’ or anything. What seemingly-changed here (and I’ve said this often) is that it seemed like before this change happened I would go into every situation believing the mantra ‘What’s in it for me?’ So, everywhere (everyone) I was going to, I was interested in those situations where there was a sense of a ‘me’ getting something from them; from the situation. Even when I was meeting people, it was more about ‘What am I getting from him? What am I getting from her? What am I getting?’ So, life seemed to be rooted in this mantra ‘What’s in it for me?’ This was the primary intent, to try and get something out of this life.

Now this voice has settled down. Now it doesn’t feel like I walk into situations with this sense of trying to grasp at something, trying to get something. It seems a lot lighter. And that is another way that I say that our vision becomes more global. Somebody here said the other day ‘But you’re still seeing through these two eyes; yes?’ I say [Chuckles] the senses still function the way they used to function but the sense of focus doesn’t seem to be on that which I feel I can get something from. So, everything becomes lighter, everything becomes brighter; or at least seems to have become brighter. Because also we say that when our attention is so much into our thoughts and we’re trying to engage in the outer world, it can seem like the vision becomes blurry.

You can try to do that right now also. Try to think of something clearly and pay attention to something outside, an object outside. You will find that some blurriness will happen, both in terms of the thought and the outside external vision. This blurriness seems to have reduced to a great extent, so everything seems much more light and bright.

There seems to be much more time. Many times when I interact with some of you it can feel like you’re not listening because you’re contemplating what you’re going to say next. Already the mind starts functioning in that way and attention gets distracted towards that. For a master, it seems like they’re not worried about that at all; they’re just allowing the flow to flow spontaneously. That’s why they can be completely with you in the interaction…, (mostly; it’s always good to not put any 100% about things).

So, what does this mean? This ‘What’s in it for me?’ actually is a very subtle form of desire, isn’t it? Because this desire is also an amplified, magnified form of the same ‘What’s in it for me? What are the experiences I want from life? What is it that I desire?’ So, this sense of desire seems to get very light. We’re not asking; making specific requests from the Universe or giving specific orders to say, you know…

So, many have this misconception also, that once you are free you can just command the Universe to give you this or to give you that. Everyone also grew up reading some kind of stories like that. But you find that there is nothing specific that you really want from this life. So, you find that those kind of desires settle down.

What is the second mantra which is the mantra of the mind? ‘Now, what should I do?!’ the first is ‘What’s in it for me?’ and the second is ‘What should I do?’

So, this ‘What should I do’ mostly with the dissolution of doership, this sense of ‘What should I do?’ also becomes very light. Both are inter-related in a very strong way, but this ‘What’s in it for me?’ and ‘What should I do?’ starts to become very light.

The rest of life remains pretty regular. This body is this body. I’ve not got the ability to project this body into some railway station. [Chuckles] If I want to pick up somebody from the airport, I still have to get in a cab and get there. The senses seem to be working normally.

Okay. Importantly also, I find that after some time, there was the arising of this voice that speaks. This voice that speaks in satsang was different from the voice which was usually speaking through this mouth. And when it first started speaking through this mouth, there was a great sense of reverence, even here, to this voice. When it started coming, first there was a sense of ‘Wow. This is great stuff’. (I have to admit that.) So when this mouth started being used by the intuitive Presence, there was also the mind which was still kicking around saying ‘Wow. This is good stuff!’

There is a development of trust in this voice. So, after the 600, 700 satsangs that we’ve had, I find that this voice can be completely trusted to share this truth, so-called truth, of satsang. The company of the truth is shared in words through the Presence of this voice; which is not the person’s voice, which is not Ananta’s voice, it is my Father’s [Guruji Mooji’s] voice.

So, I feel one of the greatest gifts in this life has been the arising of this voice here, my Father’s voice here. This has so much reverence that is felt here.

To put it simply, the dropping of desire and doership (these D’s which are troublesome, the ego- D’s, desire and doership) and the arising of the intuitive voice is what seems to have changed here.

[To the questioner]: No other supernatural abilities. [Smiles]

Q: Too much love arises…

A: You’re going to make me cry now. [Silence] [Hand on heart]

I feel most importantly what I want to tell you is that there is no difference. We are the same. We are One, fundamentally, of course. That is why this is Advaita. But even in our phenomenal functioning, fundamentally we are the same.

It’s just that most of humanity seems to be believing itself to be something that doesn’t exist [a person]. And all of us have that power. Then there are some that are not believing themselves to be that which doesn’t exist. That is It, actually.

You see what I’m saying? If we can keep it simple like that. Because the point of satsang is to reduce the seeming-distance between us. I don’t want to tell you things which make you feel like ‘Oh, but that is too far from me because I still have desire, I still feel like I’m the doer’. You can feel like that if you hear me say things like ‘The desire reduces and doer-ship reduces…’

So, rather than focusing on that, I’ve given you a pointer which does ALL of this on its own, which is: As we are not believing the false, then all the truth is revealing itself on its own.

And what is the voice of the false? It’s only the mind; which is also Consciousness and yet it is the ‘trickster’ part of Consciousness [Chuckles] designed in the way to make us feel that we are personally involved in this game.

So, as we’re letting go of this voice, that’s all that is seemingly-needed for the game.

A: Let me ask you my favorite question. I feel that this is a crucial question. After all this [being in] satsang:

What is the recognition?

What is the truth?

Q: [Silence] It feels like nothing is coming because the truth is This. Just This. And the fragrance of this truth is silence. It feels like nothing can really be said that would really be meaningful in any way. To sit in silence is really the best that can be done.

A: What would be the difference between a school boy that has been asked by his teacher to sit in silence verses a sage sitting in silence or someone coming to satsang being in silence? Is there a difference between the two? Or is it the same silence?

Q: [Silence] I would say that ultimately it’s the same silence. But maybe for the school boy there’s an idea of someone that needs to be silent, someone that needs to maintain silence. Whereas satsang with me, [they] may come to the understanding that silence is what is already present and that there’s no one needing to keep silence or maintain silence, because it’s the natural space in which things appear and take form from.

So, even in satsang, maybe if people are new, maybe there is a feeling that ‘I need to be silent and my mind is so busy and I need to quiet my mind’ and then there’s a claiming or a blaming, I guess of a ‘me’ that can’t be silent. And it’s that belief in this ‘me’ that takes ownership of thoughts, the mind, and sees the mind as evidence of this ‘me’ that creates this sense that ‘I need to be silent. I need to sit in more satsangs and go to India and bathe in the Ganga (or whatever) to really, fully feel this silence or to be this silence’. But it’s just this belief; this belief that who I am is ‘other’ that creates the illusion that it’s not really present.

A: So, when the Master says to ‘Be quiet’ what is he really talking about?

Q: [Silence] Drop the belief in this ‘person’ and don’t pick up any belief. And notice that this quiet, this silence, is already what you are fundamentally.

A: [Quietly] Yes.

Q: Don’t entertain, don’t engage with any thought or any idea. As soon as it’s said ‘But I always do this or I already do that’ you’re already in the question. ‘I have trouble with this, I have trouble with that’…, already you’ve bought the assumption that what I am is other than the pure space of the silence of This; nothingness, emptiness. You made yourself into a thing.

A: [Quietly] Yes. [Silence] For the reality of what You Are, is it possible to not be in silence at all?

Q: [Joyous Smile/Soft laughter. Namaste hands]

A: Outward silence, or even our inward silence (which is the dropping of the sense of individuality) this being in silence, both outward and inward, just is like a beautiful invocation to the silence we truly are. Isn’t it? It’s like the bhajan to That Truth must only be silence.

Someone in satsang said ‘Can we sing a bhajan about That Truth’. And the truest bhajan to that One is our silence. Because actually in the ultimate reality, we cannot even say it is silent…, because silence or not doesn’t matter. And yet if you have to pick between the two, we have to say that It Is completely silent. Because that which is non-phenomenal cannot be said to be communicating in that way. Therefore, all these forms of phenomenal silence are just a beautiful invocation to That which we Truly Are. And that is why the sages must have said that ‘My highest teaching is silence’. Isn’t it?

Q: The computer screen froze and I didn’t hear that last bit.

A: That’s why the sages have often said that ‘My highest teaching is actually in silence’. They have not said ‘The highest teaching is in the words’. They have not said that the highest teaching is even in the energetic transmission. They said ‘The highest teaching is silence’.

Because words can do a nice clean-up job of bad concepts, a transmission can bring you to the recognition of this Beingness, it can still the mind; but this silence of the sage (Your truest silence) can show that which has never actually been lost. But it is not a phenomenal seeing.

Would you like to add something to that?

Q: [Shakes head ‘No’] [Big smile]

A: It was very beautiful, your sharing. In fact I was enjoying so much hearing that even the words in this deep silence were struggling to arise. [Chuckles] [Whispers]: Very beautiful.

Q: Thank you. Really good to speak with you. Thank you.

A: Same same, my love; same same.

Q: I was just thinking about [what you said earlier today] and looking at, you know, [the idea of] bondage; if there is bondage in this moment. And there is no bondage here, when I look in this moment.  The mind (Oh, my goodness) [Laughs] the mind has been on a rampage lately throwing out every negative thing it can think of that it has always gotten me with over the years [Like] ‘Well, you may be fine now, but you can’t keep this kind of life going. If you want to have…, I mean, you have to be more…, whatever’. Right? ‘In this moment, yeah sure; but you should be saving money for retirement (whatever, whatever, or you know) or not going to satsang so much (or, or, or…’) But really, truly, everything is wonderful, splendid, in this moment.

A: Yes. [Nods] That is why it is so beautiful that we only experience life in this moment, right Now. And really it is the best news because unless I reach out for it, unless I believe it, there is no story, there is no conditioning, there is no identity.

Yes, it can be that, in the moment, the voice which sells you this identity appears. But just seeing it like this, we can also see that it can be allowed to just come and go. But even if it is bought…, just Now, already it is gone.

That is why this pretense is actually so much hard work and effort because you need to keep juicing it up. You see? You need to give it more and more belief, feed it more and more thoughts. So, really, this false identity is the one that is fighting a losing battle.

Because in the Now, this Now, how we will experience starts completely fresh, free from all identity.

It’s a very beautiful secret; one that the mind will resist in a very big way, because all of its efforts are gone now.

That is why, when you are asked to check on whether there is any bondage really Now, we come back to say ‘No, there isn’t’.

But what about the future? The future will also be experienced just Now.

And no matter what our material circumstances are, no matter what else is happening, you will find that (in any moment when you check, you will find that) you are free from any sense of bondage.

So, nothing really can happen to you. And this actually brings us to the simple neutrality, the simple allowing to let all things happen and emerge as they might. There is not a resistance or an aversion to making money, nor a special desire to make money. It can just unfold on its own.

To see this is a great source of strength; to see that no matter what my material circumstances are, what I will experience in every moment Now is complete freedom.

A: [Silence]. Okay, why are we in satsang? [Silence] Or we can make it more specific, why are you in satsang?

Q: Well, the first thing that came when you said ‘we’ [Laughter], it’s a little bit different…

A: [Laughter] You can answer that. That’s okay.

Q: …is that truly we cannot be out of satsang.

A: Yes. How do you mean?

Q: We can only pretend to be out of Truth. So, we need to clarify, remove the fog from the glasses so to speak.

A: Yes.

Q: And that’s probably the answer to the second question. Every day, or every other day, there is a new fog.

A: A new what?

Q: There is something supposedly blocking the seeing, the clear seeing.

A: A new block, yes. What form seems to block the seeing? What is the forms of these?

Q: Just thoughts.

A: Just thoughts. So the appearance of a thought, does it become a block?

Q: No, only when believed in.

A: And once we believe in a thought, what does it actually block?

Q: [Laughter] The one who believes in the thought.

A: The one that believes in the thought is which one?

Q: The person.

A: So, what does this person look like before it believes in a thought?

Q: It’s not there.

A: But we just said that the person believes in a thought, so it must be there to believe in it, no? Therefore it cannot be both. So, the person believes in a thought, but the person itself is not there before the belief?

Q: It feels like Consciousness is taking the shape of a person when that belief is…

A: So, now what actually got blocked? So if it is Consciousness that is playing as if or taking the shape (as you say) of a person, has Consciousness now blocked Itself of Itself?

Q: Clear seeing. There is a belief that keeps resurfacing (it’s like the Japanese restaurant analogy, metaphor that you give) and once you start believing a thought all of a sudden you’re eating the whole seven course meal or what not. [Laughter] And once you eat the seven course meal, there is a belief ‘Oh, I lost it’. And that resurfaces.

A: Exactly.

Q: Such that the mere presence of thoughts is believed as an indication, even though it’s known that it’s not. Indication is that there is no clear seeing, but obviously it’s Seen.

A: But even the sages have thoughts. So if having the thought would mean that there is no clear Seeing then that would make it just too difficult; because I have not met anyone who doesn’t have a single thought.

Q: There is a belief that the sage doesn’t pay attention to thoughts, whereas…

A: A sage doesn’t what?

Q: Believe or pay attention to thoughts.

A: Believe, yes. So, it is not the presence of the thoughts but whether they are identified with or believed in that makes the seeming-difference. But what we were talking about was something even more fundamental, which was that even if Consciousness does get identified (believes Itself to be a person) what does it actually block?

Q: It cannot block anything. It’s just a different experience.

A: Yes, yes. Therefore speaking from the same level then, if Consciousness wants to experience Itself as a person, nothing can stop it, And if Consciousness doesn’t want to experience Itself as a person anymore then nothing can make that happen. But as long as you see that nothing fundamental changes, only the appearance (level of appearance of physical matter) in the sense of how this life is experienced.

So then what is satsang? Only a reminder that Consciousness is making to Itself in the play (not that it needs any reminders). Just like everything; most other things in the world are making it believe, or selling the belief that it is our ‘person’. It has also created some play, some parts of the play, which remind itself that it is not a person. And then in the monologue, Consciousness says from one side ‘But what do I do? I am suffering’. And then Consciousness says from the other side ‘It’s just because you’re believing your thoughts’. So, this is the game that Consciousness is playing with Itself when it puts on the personhood hat. Suppose you put a hat on which says ‘Okay’…, (I might get you in trouble in the US) [Chuckles] Suppose you put a hat on that says [Laughter] ‘I love France’. Does that make you a Frenchman?

Q: Francophile maybe; but no, not a Frenchman.

A: Yes. [Laughter] Yes. And you can try to increase the pretense by starting to speak in a French accent, talking about the best French wine; take on all the pretenses but in reality does that really change the fact that you are not French?

Q: No.

A: So, Consciousness has this power to pretend as if it is something limited. But the reality does not change in that. So, the idea of the block is a big part of the pretense. That’s what we are looking at today. Because it can feel like something is really getting in the way and we give more reality to our beliefs if we say that it actually can block something. That’s why I love the word pretending, or pretense a lot more. Because in the word pretending; it is much lighter. It is just a pretend. Just to look at it in this way that makes it not as much of a struggle as it can seems like sometimes. You see this?

Now if we are never blocked (you can only say this from the perspective of Consciousness, and ultimately say this from the perspective of That which is aware of Consciousness)…, but as [your name] these words might not seem to have full resonance. Because if you’re in the Frenchman pretense and I say ‘Oh, they have some nice vineyards in California [Laughter] you’ll say ‘No, no, no. French vineyards are nothing in comparison’. [Laughter, attempting to make a French accent] Now the pretense is not happening. So, from that perspective of the pretending one, then it can seem like a concept. It can seem like a fact that ‘There are no blocks and that you are free already’ itself would sound like a concept. So, if you step back from this pretense and check right now if you’re truly bound in any way, what do you find?

Q: [Nods side to side]

A: If you didn’t have a single idea about how…, and you were just to check right now can you show me the bondage or the block?

Q: It’s not possible.

A: It’s not possible. Isn’t that great news? [Laughter] Firstly, you’re searching for Freedom, but when we check for bondage right now we don’t find it. So that itself firstly must be a cause of big celebration, because that which I’m looking for presumably is already here. So, if the Now is like this, what possible trouble can there be? Can we experience a moment which is not Now?

Q: I think what’s happening here is that, there is a movement, this famous oscillation that Guruji [Mooji] talks about between being in ‘formal satsang’ (whether it’s with you, or just reading a book or listening to whomever, other teacher I follow).

A: [Laughter] you can name them, you can take names, we are not shy of…, if you follow Rupert…, I like most of…

Q: Yeah, you know. But then when I’m in activity somehow and I can’t really necessarily draw a line when the pretense begins, and then all of a sudden with the pretense comes the seeker with a bag full of beliefs. ‘Oh, in Consciousness there is nothing; so obviously you are not there Now because you have this agitation in front of you’. Now all of this is happening in a much (I should say) lower volume than before. But I guess maybe there’s still a belief in ‘the magic pill’ kind of seeker, you know? Once this is Seen, I don’t know if all the conditioning would drop or these questions would become ridiculous; to the extent that it sometimes it feels like there is still a sense of choice, of doership. And sometimes it feels like there is no doership, in the sense that I can’t; like Consciousness takes over. I was planning on doing one thing but it’s not happening. [Laughter] And there is a real opening to that. ‘Okay, I really want to go fully into that’. [Laughter] But at the same time, a knowing that I don’t have any say in what pace this is going to happen (if at all) and it doesn’t ultimately matter. But there is still some seed in that, I guess, that is believed. So, mostly I just want to put it at your feet.

A: So, when these activities happen, there are usually two ways in which we experience them. One, the happening it seems is just automatic that belief is going to things and the response is coming that way and I’m playing the role of personhood completely in auto pilot mode. It can seem like that. Isn’t it? So many times we pick up guilt about these things, the 1-2 punch, all the ‘multi-course meal’ is like this. It just moved like that and truly there wasn’t the sense of choice at all…, ‘just was so caught up in the situation’ that the sense of belief and everything went. And there can be sometimes where it can seem like a real choice. ‘Okay, these thoughts are coming, saying I must do this, I must confront this, I must say this’. These thoughts are coming like this and it can seem like there is a choice whether to pick them up or just allow them to come and go.

Now, as we have been coming to satsang, the times where it seems like a choice becomes more…, there is more space, more distance; where these times seem more and more. That’s why we allow ourselves to let go more and more, and that’s how things have become lighter than before. Then as these moments become lighter, then you’ll find that even in those times (which seem to be so automatically here) now this sense of choice comes. I can just allow them to come and go. So, as space is opening up for the rest of it, then more space is going for those which our so-called identity seems to be just so reactionary about that we didn’t have a sense of time or space to believe or not to believe. Then more space comes to believe or not believe.

Then you’ll find that in most situations it can feel like there is simple choice whether to get on the bus of these thoughts, or whether to let the bus just come and go. So it will become lighter and lighter in this way. Then you’ll find that that which was so sticky earlier now is losing its stickiness; as Adya [Adyashanti] says the Velcro-thoughts will start to lose their Velcro-ness in some way. They’ll start to become less and less sticky. Then you find that it’s a very, very rare thing which will get you to give it some belief. And there is no 100% in this. Everyone, every expression that I have met, has bought some identity, has bought some story from the mind. The time from which it was bought and the quantity in which it is bought, that keeps reducing, so that it becomes almost momentary. It becomes very much less.

The funny thing with this is that it is very rare when things are picked up. Even this sense of seeming choice starts to dissolve, let go. And that which seemed like the choice I was making, that is also clearly seen; and seen that no it was not a choice, it was just a play of grace, play of Consciousness itself. Because we are realizing there was not a person here anyway.

It’s a virtuous circle in some way, as we continue to make the choice of not believing our thoughts. Whenever; just make that choice. And don’t feel guilty about, don’t buy the guilt- thoughts about the times where it just seemed like you had no choice in the matter anyway. Because many times this second punch, mostly this second punch is much more. [Guilt is the second punch in the 1-2 punch example; punch 1 is ‘it happened’.]

So what are we saying very simply is that there will be moments where it just seemed like it happened; the whole thing. And what is worse is that we believe we have not really found our Self in satsang, that we are not free yet. All these beliefs get bought. What to do? Let go of those at least. Because it is a very natural functioning of Being inside this. That is why I started making so much the distinction between the recognition which is becoming so clear for all of you, and the dropping of all conditioning. Because there can be this idea (which itself is an idea) that ‘The instant the recognition of Who I Am should happen, and that in that instant all conditioning should be dropped’. Now when it doesn’t play like that, we start questioning our own recognition.

There is no way when you answer the question ‘Are you aware now?’ that the recognition has not happened actually. If you are answering this from a place of looking, then there is no way the recognition is not happening. So, the recognition is there! But we question our recognition because the conditioning is still continuing to play. What to do about this conditioning is only this: whenever it feels like I have a choice, don’t believe your next thought.

[Laughter] Maybe I should just add this: Instead of just saying ‘Don’t believe your next thought’ I should just say ‘Whenever it feels like there is a choice, then don’t believe your next thought’.

Because when I say ‘Don’t believe your next thought’ maybe there is a lot of potential for guilt, that ‘I’m still believing the next thought; I’m still there, I’m not free’. So maybe we should just say like this from now on: ‘If it feels like there is a choice, then in that case, don’t believe your next thought’. If it doesn’t feel like that, then in any case there is nothing to do; it is just going to happen anyway. So, that I feel will make it lighter.

There are some comments coming from the room then we can continue.

~ ~ ~

Q: [Another questioner in room] It’s more of a question, especially now for me: Does involvement by default mean that I am believing it?

A: Involvement in what? In the physical activity?

Q: In the physical activity.

A: No it doesn’t.

Q: Yeah, so many times it feels like a flow.

A: Of course, of course.

Q: And I’m doing stuff….

A: This is a very important point because the mind can say that ‘Not believing the thoughts must be a very inert state’. Therefore when the functioning is happening, it therefore must mean that you are involved in your thoughts…, but this is not true. Great functioning can happen. Many of the sages (not all but many of the sages) have done great activities, great seva; like Bhagavan [Ramana Maharshi] himself cooked a lot of food for those visitors to the ashram. Being deeply involved in an activity can happen. Deep involvement, deep engagement in an activity can happen without our picking up the ideas, picking up this conditioning.

Q: For me it feels like a flow, but also I cannot say for sure there was no intention. So, some intention that occurs needs to happen, and then that arises, and it becomes a flow. But I’m not sure whether that’s a belief there or this is doership there sometimes; that it is nothing, it just a flow.

A: To check whether it is [inaudible] vs a strong sense of what it must be or not, you can just check (whether the outcome was not in the way that the intention was) does that come with suffering or is that light?

Q: No, there is probably no prerequisite even for an outcome. There is just an intention or desire to move; that’s all there is.

A: This sense can be there. But if there’s not this strong sense of how this intention should turn out, then it is the way of the karma yogi.

Q: But there is a kind of…, I just leave it and it happens sometimes. Many times I don’t do it and I actually see it happening from somewhere else.

A: As the movement is happening, do you experience it to be a joyful movement?

Q: No, I can’t say. More like…

A: Is it like an enthusiastic movement?

Q: Yes, very enthusiastic.

A: It’s fine.

Q: I get enthusiastic?! Yeah, it doesn’t feel there is resistance, it just feels like resistance if I forcibly don’t do it.

A: Yes, exactly. So, in this way all these movements can happen. We can say like this, that there can be a mild intention, you can say. Like Bhagavan saying ‘I want to cook food for my devotees that come to the ashram’. But if it doesn’t come that way and another questioner comes with burning things, if it goes another way, he’s not suffering because of that. So, it’s just like playing the game in some way but very lightly. It is not a really strong feeling; not coming strong that way. When we talk about intention usually it is ‘Yes, yes, this is my goal, this is my ambition’. Like that. And when it doesn’t show up in that way then we feel like ‘Oh, that didn’t happen!’ And we feel like suffering.

Q: It’s almost like a feeling like movement itself.

~ ~ ~

A: It’s fine.  Coming back to first questioner.

Q: Yeah, I think a lot of that resonates with me as well. In the grand scheme, I can’t say that even in moments supposedly there was some guilt even bought; or it’s still a flow. There’s much more space. Like I’m intending to do one thing and some other thing happens and there’s so much more space than before. I can see that. But I can see the energy in the conditioning. I’m what Adya [Adyashanti] would call a ‘relatively functional ego’ so managing my life. And it seems (perhaps it’s redundant to even interpret it, but it seems) like somehow there is a re-orientation and trying to lose that functional ego and control of supposedly-life and daily activities. When the activity is mundane, then there is definitely a flow and no thought, if I’m cooking or whatever. But there are some places, I guess, where there is fertile ground. What you were saying before. I think the root is the sense of choice. Because when there is a flow there is no sense of choice, or it really doesn’t matter; like if I’m cooking and I’m opening the refrigerator to pick up whatever is there, there is no strategy on what vegetable is going to go in the pot.

A: Exactly, yes.

Q:  Whereas in other things the mind says ‘Oh, wait a second. You should think. There are two ways or three ways to go, or four ways’. And that easily blooms into a whole symphony of thoughts.

A: Yes. What you find, what I find mostly is that choice comes between ‘this and this’. And just an inner clarity is there, that ‘It’s not really an option at all. This seems like clearly what feels like could be done’. So, this inner clarity emerges. And when that inner clarity doesn’t emerge what I usually do is I ask everyone else [Laughter] ‘What do you feel we should do?’ Many of you have seen like this, in satsang also. So, if it’s not clear, I ask someone else. Because I know ultimately, all is grace; so even that seeming-burden of picking up these choices (then contemplating them, evaluating them) seems like it is too much, So, I just ask someone. Now if there is no one who can be asked about it then I just let it emerge on its own. Then, although it might seem like a choice, it really isn’t. I just make this seeming-choice of not choosing until it is completely clear from the heart that ‘This is the way to go’. Then that makes it quite light.

When these conflicting ideas about choice come, then to get involved in that and try to pick and choose, and evaluate those decisions…, that seems quite meaningless mostly here. So I just ask my family; whatever they feel in their heart to do, I’m okay with that. Even if their choice is coming from the mind, I’m actually okay to go with that because I know ultimately it’s all one flow of grace. I just can’t trouble myself to go to my mind and say ‘Okay, option A is 50% percent better than option B and what should be done?’ [Laughter] It seems like too much work! I’m too lazy for all that. Then if there is actually nobody who can even guide like that, in that way, I just leave it until it emerges. And many times it’s also seen that what was decided on the sense of this was the way to go. This feeling is there at the last minute; the feeling was ‘But no, the feet are moving in the opposite direction’. And that itself shows you that this seeming-choice making, decision making, actually is really nothing. Because in spite of choices, many times you’ve just done the opposite of what was decided.

Q: Yeah, it’s kind of like that. I mean sometimes I feel like there’s still some mental noise going on and decision-making, but a deeper sense of keeping quiet and just waiting for that intuition to come. But of course, sometimes it’s not (or at least for me here) it’s not always clear; that intuition (or at least it’s not coming in, let’s say, the timeframe that the mind thought of).

A: Yes, yes. Because it doesn’t. Which is actually a great blessing that it doesn’t dance to the tunes of the mind. Just imagine if the intuition were to start being a servant to the mind…., mind saying ‘Okay, intuition, what you got?’ And the intuition is standing up and nodding ‘Yes, yes, Master, this is what I have’. Then it is the reverse position, when the mind gets like this genie that should answer all requests and say ‘Yes, yes’. Isn’t it? So intuition doesn’t dance to the tunes of the mind, like ‘Oh, I really need my intuition now, where is it?’ It will become completely quiet; because it is not meant for that. In fact, as I’ve seen it here, I found that to go to intuition about things that are just seemingly-personal, just like this worldly phenomena, that the impulse to go to intuition for that is very minimal actually. That intuition is this voice which is speaking these words in satsang now. And to go to it for something sort of very selfish, decision making, seems like, just feels like, it is not what the purpose of this intuition is for. It is not meant to make the life of Ananta better. It is just meant to share this; sharing in satsang, sharing of the intuitive truths which are being discovered here, sharing of these insights. And most of you know anyway that I don’t pray for anything specific usually. My prayer is usually ‘Let my Father’s will be done; in whichever way he wants to is completely fine’. Because to let the intuition or Satguru dance to the voice of this mind would be a blatant mis-use. But it doesn’t even dance to it so we don’t even have to worry about it.

So just to put it simply, what we are saying is: If this is personal, don’t expect intuition to necessarily help you.

Q: So, [Laughter] it doesn’t matter basically.

A: Yes. This sense of choice making itself will go. To be honest and say that if one day it felt like there was no intuitive guidance felt for anything anymore, even that would be completely fine here, because I know that every single movement of every blade of grass is happening only through his will.

Q: I think one thing that I interpreted or misinterpreted from Rupert (that might have been causing too much havoc or noise) is when he talks about the outward path and living from your deepest love and understanding. I think for me it’s very easy for the mind to take over on that and say ‘I’ll figure out what’s the deepest love and understanding, just give me a second’ kind of thing. [Laughter]

A: [Laughter] So, let’s presume for a minute that it was not Rupert’s guidance (because I don’t want to saying anything disrespectful to anything what these beautiful teachers are sharing). There can be this too much pressure. So, if this was your question ‘So, how do I live this?’ then I would say ‘Don’t try to live this, because nobody can really live this. Because trying to live this is coming from this sort of personal place and you really cannot live this. It has to live itself’.

Therefore when Guruji [Mooji] says ‘Hand over your existence to existence’ this is what is meant. It is not that we are trying to now live from this ‘place of existence’. It is just a simple handing over, that ‘It is not my concern anymore. Now it’s all your problem, Highest place, lowest place; I don’t understand any of this. I’m just going to allow your Presence to move’.

It is not that in every moment I am doing this audit and saying ‘Okay, is your Presence moving? Or is mine? Is there too much person here?’ It’s not like that; that’s a very constricted state. We just let go of it in that way. And we’re not trying to ‘live it’ because trying to ‘live it’ would seem like too much pressure, too much burden. The one that has been living it is this Beingness itself, Consciousness itself; and Consciousness is playing the game in this way. But don’t you take on the burden. See what is really happening:

Awareness is exhibiting Itself in a phenomenal form of Consciousness,

Then putting on the pretense of personhood,

Then this person is trying to behave as if it is this Consciousness (if not Awareness itself).

This is too much, too much pollution! [Laughter] So, it is not like that. Because many times it can be that spirituality brings on additional burden of trying to personally live ‘as if’ we are Consciousness.

Q: Yeah, there’s been that a lot. The mind picking up what a sage should do or should not do, or pretending to be somebody spiritual, or whatever.

A: God-pretending-to-be-a-person-who-is-then-pretending-to-be-god is the biggest burden that anyone can carry. Therefore, coming to the truth is removing this sense of personal existence, personal identity, in the first place. Then all pretense is stopped.

So in some way or the other it is said (many times it is said) ‘Fake it till you make it’. But this ‘fake it’ is a lot of burden. [Laughter] If you are faking it to try to be god, then the person pretending to have got it, and now pretending to move as if it is god…, is too much. Just drop all of this.

Don’t try to live in any particular way. Because even if you were to tell me here that ‘Ananta, you must live from your deepest place’…, oh just thinking about that is like taking on something which will become additional pressure. If you try to live like an awakened being, if you try to live like an enlightened person, it’s so much struggle, so much burden. I actually wouldn’t wish a burden like that on anyone.

I won’t say you must live your life in any which way. And we have beautiful examples where every expression of every sage has been so different. Isn’t it? And it would be so confusing to try and emulate any one of them, because some sages have been full of love and kindness in their outward expression, some have been so angry in their outward expression, some have been completely silent in their outward expression, some have just been talking and talking in their outward expression; so what would it mean to try and emulate that? Then it cannot mean the outward. Then it would mean that every moment you have to listen to what your intuition is saying. But if that comes like this, like a mental guidance, that ‘I must listen to what my intuition is saying’ then when it doesn’t happen (because it cannot happen all the time; unless we drop the mind completely there will be moments in which something mental will be picked up but) if there is so much about living in a certain way then that would come with a lot of guilt, a lot of remorse about picking up from the mind, a lot of trouble about ‘Oh, I didn’t do it right. I’m supposed to live in this authentic way, it’s too much pressure.

For me it’s easier to say that we can drop this mind, we can not believe our thoughts. But even if belief is happening, all of that, still belief and the movement of this expression is always in accordance with God’s will; nothing can move out of it. It’s all God’s play anyway, So, anything which gives you the potential for more guilt, let’s keep it simple; anything which gives you the potential for more guilt, safely drop that. Either it is a misinterpretation or it’s better to drop something that we have heard in that way. Anything that you hear also in satsang, if it gives you potential for more guilt (like if ‘Don’t believe your next thought’ ends up making you feel guilty more and more) then better we even drop that. Because these pointings are meant to dislodge all this stuff, not to give you additional things to be guilty about.

Now, in the same way, this is what happens when we give it to the mind. The greatest sages have come, the greatest Masters have come, prophets have come; Jesus spoke very beautifully but now Christianity can become like the biggest cause of guilt for many, for a lot of humanity. It is not because of what Jesus says but because how the mind has interpreted it over generations. So, it’s become what, many Christians have called the religion of guilt. That was not Jesus’ intent.

Q: There’s a lot more space and understanding now of ‘I don’t know anything’ and it’s so, I mean, looking from Consciousness so to speak, it’s simple and it’s obvious; there’s no knowledge. And it seems like every time there is a strong conditioning to get more conceptual knowledge (not necessarily related to satsang or teachings but even that seems like just a burden because) it serves again that guilt trip of ‘Oh, I should behave in such and such a way’.

A: Yes, yes, yes. So, I feel like we have a beautiful litmus test now; if you sense that this has some potential to make you guilty. Because somehow maybe in this expression, in this life, something is more attracted to this feeling guilty sort of thing.

Q: Maybe I was Catholic [Laughter] in a past life.

A: [Laughter] So, this is a good litmus test: If you sense something you pick up from satsang or you hear from anyone…, but actually what is happening is it’s giving you some excuse to feel more guilty about yourself…, then you can safely drop it. There are enough pointings out there, there are enough questions, inquiries, that will point you straight to the truth, without you having to pick up this burden of doing something properly or not doing properly and feeling guilty about it.

And sometimes even those things which have made us feel guilty, when I say drop them, there might be this feeling ‘No, maybe I can hold on to this one’. Actually we can also feel like guilt has become like a comfort zone; guilt itself a zone of comfort. I say ‘Okay, drop any pointing which has this potential of making you feel guilty’ then something might feel like ‘Oh, he’s making me give up all my candy’.

The point is to come to this place where we see that ‘I really don’t know anything. I tried this, I tried this, but none of this works, from the perspective of this personal identity’. Now, if your deepest urge is at this point of time was to get something for this personal identity, then you’ll find many things which might seemingly work for that one in the play. There are many self-help teachings. You can have all of these things which will seem like you can make this personal identity into a giant of a man or something like that. [Laughter] Awaken the giant within you or something. So, like he had earlier said very beautifully, that if within the functional life, you want to play in this personal way then there could be a lot of local truths in that. He was talking about programming; there could be a lot of local variables which might be true in that particular function. But if we stepped out [away] from this intent to operate as a person and are moving into our universality, then the global variables must become all tending to zero. We must empty out all our ideas, And this not knowing anything is very, very beautiful.

We might even feel like ‘Not only don’t I know anything, I’m not even understanding anything that he is saying’. Many of you beat yourself up when that happens. ‘Oh, when I came to satsang I was understanding everything that he was saying’. Not really, you were creating a basket of concepts and you were creating a beautiful house of cards full of spiritual ideas. You were making this house-of-cards of spirituality. And once this gets blown away…, ‘It’s so frustrating now! As I’ve been in satsang longer I just feel like I don’t know anything. I’m not even understanding any word that you’re saying’. [Laughter] But this is a very auspicious part of the process. It can seem frustrating to the mind, saying ‘My house-of-cards has been blown up!’ We didn’t expect for it to happen; because these words were not meant to be understood in that way. In fact, they were only meant to demolish all of our concepts so they are doing their job.

As we get more and more okay with not knowing anything, then you’ll find that life becomes an expression of this, on its own without trying to do it. As you live your life not knowing, just try…, [Laughter] not as again an opportunity to make yourself feel guilty (‘Oh, I was supposed to live as if I’m not knowing’). [Laughter] Not like this. This inherently comes with any pointing. So, if anything gives you that guilt, then better to forget about all of it. But if you find that it’s possible just to live our life without knowing anything at all, you might find that it becomes very light. And yet everything can seem to happen. (Maybe this was the place that Rupert was referring to.) It cannot be that to live authentically it can come from a place of mental knowing; not even from a place of mentally trying to live authentically.

Have I confused you completely now? Or is there something left to confuse? [Laughter]

Q: No, it’s just the mind is still sticky with ‘Okay, so what does this actually mean? [Laughter] So maybe you have confused me. [Laughter]. It keeps coming back with whatever decision point there is supposedly. But what I heard was ‘Just keep quiet’ and…

A: Ok, so let’s dive a little deeper into this. Why to keep quiet and to let it flow? Because and to presume ‘I have a decision to make’…, which ‘I’ am I presuming myself to be?

Q: The person.

A: The person. And we found that there is no person that exists; we looked and looked. Therefore this presumption of being an individual decision maker is a fallacy. The only end to this ‘God’s will vs so-called free will’ debate is to see there is nobody apart from God, apart from Consciousness, who would have any will in the first place. Therefore God’s will must be free will. It is not two but One.

But also, practically speaking, I said: Isn’t it that there is a sense there is a decision to be made? And sometimes great clarity is Seen, that actually it is not really a decision. It is just like a game being played and I already know that ‘This is what feels right’. So, this sense can come sometimes. We can call it intuition. If that sense is not there, at least what I do is I ask someone around me, my family, the sangha. If it doesn’t seem appropriate to ask them this question or they’re not there, or they don’t have an answer, then I lose that idea that I have to decide something. And sometimes I just wake up knowing ‘This is what it feels like. It is the right next step’. There’s a sense of clarity which will emerge on its own. And if it doesn’t emerge right till the last moment (sometimes it feels like there is no clarity about what I’m going to do or say next, and yet when you find yourself in a situation) then your feet move, your mouth moves.

I’ll tell you a funny story. When the sharing of satsang started here there was a sense that something wanted to say ‘Okay, what is going to be shared today? Do you have any idea?’ And the mind would come and say ‘But you’re just going to make a fool of yourself today because you have nothing to say. It’s all done’. These kind of things would try to build some fear about the sharing of satsang.  So, what would happen was I would just come and just wait for the mouth to start moving on its own. And I would find some days it just moves immediately; some days it takes a few moments. So, this was great satsang for me here because you can just let it go and see; just watch if the mouth would move or not. And I always found that this voice for the purposes of satsang has never really not shown Itself. Although there would be openness to admit if one day nothing came; I would just say ‘It’s quiet here. There is nothing that wants to move’. So, even in the sharing of satsang, the mind can come and say ‘But what are you going to say? But you are completely out of things to say!’ [Laughter] These kind of fears it can try to even create. So, it used to do that a lot in the first few months of the sharing. So, now I don’t know if it still does, but at least not so much attention goes to it. So, I’m not even sure whether it still comes before satsang, this voice. [Laughter].

And if this Presence can speak from this space with such beauty, then I’m sure it can figure out what to do with these small decisions in our life. And what also used to happen here was the words would come out from this mouth and there was a hearing of these words and something was (the mind still was) going, saying ‘Wow! This is pretty good stuff ‘. [Laughter] I have to be honest and admit that. When the sharing started and the words would come, there was something that was still evaluating the words ‘Not bad, not bad’. [Laughter]. So, all of this is part of the normal human play. Nothing to worry so much about that.

Q: And going back perhaps to the original question you asked me. One of the decision points that supposedly is coming was how to “architect” life. And it was seen that it’s complete rubbish in the sense that ‘Oh, I should find this kind of job so I have enough hours just to be in satsang. It sounded very romantic for a little bit, maybe an hour or two, and then I was like [Laughter] ‘If I was meant to work (I don’t know) 50 hours a week then I’m meant to work (I don’t know) then that’s kind of what it is. But it is my joy to be in this form of satsang, fully knowing that satsang never ends.

A: Yes. This is very good, very good. And like Guruji [Mooji] says ‘Life is not vindictive in any way’. So, whatever is the best response to what our inner urge is, that will show up for us in our life; whether we recognize it in that moment or not. As we look back at our lives, we mostly see this, that ‘This was just what I needed at that point of time and it showed up’. The same acceptance is not usually for what is appearing now. [Chuckles] But more and more, as we start looking at it and seeing that everything in the past has been such a beautiful flow; even the hard wax which I got from life was exactly what was needed…, when it is Seen like this, then you start also trusting what is appearing now. And we’re not trying to micro-manage any of this anymore. We have really no tools as a person because we don’t exist in that way. But we have no tools to manage this life.

I used to joke earlier and say it’s like with the twig we’re trying to control the flow of the river. We don’t know anything. Tomorrow some crazy dictator can explode in a nuclear test or something. It’s not so far from reality what I’m saying [Laughter] from this so called reality. It can just be that they were doing a nuclear test and the reaction went out of control (the control is a small minor detail) [Laughter] and it’s all ‘Game over’. Finished

Q: Thank you, Father.

A: Thank you, my dear. For many, this example can sound very despondent almost. But for me, there is a great sense of freedom in that; [Laughter] in this sense of what are we trying to control and manage. That’s why as Bhagavan [Ramana Maharshi] said if there is a sense that we have a choice, then make a choice not to go with the mind. That initial portion is very important now, we are discovering.

Q: I have this question actually. So, basically, technically, if I am not a person here at all, then this is just a body. Because I think it’s only a problem if it is my body and I identify; like thinking how my body should be, it’s health and what it should eat and all of those things. But if there is not even a person here, then this is just a body. Isn’t it?

A: ‘Just a body’ has the sense that it’s not something beautiful. I’d like to refer to the body as a beautiful instrument. If we were to enter into this realm and we did not have bodies, or maybe we had a very few molecules, just a bare-bones sort of body literally, and then we had to go to a superstore to get this body; then you look at all the features and the functioning of this body and you see that ‘Wow! It’s quite an instrument’. And I’d be willing to pay big money for this body. It’s quite something. It’s quite some technology.

So, it is not Me. It is not Me; enough to see this. Why I’m making these points is that very often in spirituality the body is put down in some way and many times it is blamed for a lot of things when it doesn’t deserve the blame. It is just a simple, beautiful instrument actually.

Q: So, the reason I was thinking about it is because for me, at least here (I mean I don’t think there is a ‘me’ but I’m so used to talking like that) exercise is just something that the body does. It’s actually not something hated or disliked; it just Is. So, when I started contemplating more about the body, does that mean that I’m attached to the body? Because I know that there is no person here. It’s beyond even knowledge; it’s like a deep insight that no person is here. [Chuckles] And really this morning, it was like ‘Holy crap. Who is driving this car?’

It was not a problem; it was fine. I was totally driving the car; crying to a Justin Bieber song (which is horrible but I really like it) but at the same time I’m like ‘Oh, my God, there’s never been a person here; ever’. Then the mind immediately came and said ‘But listen, you like to exercise, so does that mean that, you know…? Like what is this realization? It doesn’t mean anything’. So, the mind immediately came and attacked. And I was like ‘You know what? I’m going to ask’. And I almost didn’t come tonight. But I’m like ‘No, I’m going to show up and I’m going to ask this question’.

A: Yeah. Very good. So, it’s very good what you say. You say that ‘I see that there is no individual ‘me’ like this anyway, and this body is just functioning in a very normal, natural sort of way. And if exercise is happening, then exercise is happening and it’s good. Does it mean that I’m over-attached to the body?’

Let’s take the car example again. So, for most of us, the car is not Me. The car is an instrument that we have that does a particular task. It’s an instrument and it’s not ‘me’. It doesn’t mean that I don’t give it for servicing, I don’t take care of the car. You see? So, all this can happen. But for some of us, our identities our deeply in the car. So, if something scratches their car, for example on the road, then they’re more furious than if somebody were to scratch their body even. Some can be so attached to their instrument. So, that is something we just have to look at and to see whether ‘Am I caring for this instrument and wanting to make sure it is functioning right, without it being Me anywhere?’ And if it’s clear that ‘No, no, it is not Me, it is just an instrument and it is being taken care of naturally’ then no trouble. Then, no trouble.

Q: It happened this morning. So the other thought was…, I guess that for so long the feeling has been here of identifying with the body. I mean obviously. Because if you think of [her name] or of a person, you automatically think of the body because that’s physically present and you’re like ‘Okay, that’s me’. Like if somebody were to say ‘Okay, that’s her, right?’ So, the point is that technically, I guess, we’re all bigger than that, in a way. We’re not just the body; or we’re not the body. So, does that mean that Consciousness just decides to just take on any body?

Again, I don’t even know if this is mental, I’m just going to say it out loud. So, does that mean that…? Anyway, the whole purpose of this is to shed any attachment to the movie scenes that may have happened in this life which is like a storybook and have a deep sense of ‘Oh, that happened to me which is really bad’ or ‘This happened to me which is really good’…, and again, attempt to be (for lack of better words) to just be as clean as possible (again, for lack of better words, really). And it’s not to throw away the parts you don’t like, because you think about yourself or about your story and keep the ones that you like. But it’s literally like kind of going ‘Hey, this is a moving train. None of this is Me. My job is to just make sure that whatever shows up, I do the best of it’. And if it’s bad [Chuckles] because eventually it goes away. And if it’s good, (whatever the convention is). Because even the notion of good and bad is kind of changing because it’s a matter of perspective. I don’t know if that makes sense. I’m just rambling; I feel like I’m just saying stuff. But even that actually has shifted here and I don’t know if it’s just because I’m old now, but …, because you can’t really say anything is good or bad for a fact, because it really depends on what side of the table you’re on. Because if you are thinking only of yourself, then it’s good or bad, but if you start looking at it from the other person’s perspective, then…, you know what I mean? Then that doesn’t even hold…, I’m sorry, I’m going to shut up now.

A: [Chuckles]. It’s good. So, a few points you made, which were, firstly, there can be a sense that because something happened to the body, it happened to me. But if we look at this even a little more closely, we find that ‘Okay, something happened to the body when I was five years old, something happened to the body when it was in school, something happened to the body in later years and something is happening to the body now’. But if we look at the body itself, every cell of this body which is here now is different from every cell in that body when we were five years old or ten years old or…

Q: Exactly.

A: So, there is nothing in the body which is resenting or feeling pride about something that happened. It is only coming for this sense that ‘It happened to me, as a person which is called [her name]’…, which is where the ‘something happening to me’ comes from’.

Now, you are absolutely right when you say that in terms of the phenomenal evidence that this sense is here that ‘This body is the me. What do you mean, there’s no me? This body is the me’. But when we look at most of the things which have happened in this life, which have bothered us in some way, most of those things have not had anything to do with the body. The body is not concerned about (like I say) if there is money in the bank, the body is not concerned about how a neighbor is behaving. The body is not concerned with any of this.

So, with this mind, we are giving evidence of an existence of a ‘me’ by pointing to the body, saying ‘See. I exist [as a person]’. It is not true. Because the things that the mind makes us feel (proud, guilty, regretful about mostly) have nothing to do with the body. So, this ‘me’ that we have been carrying about, in our belief in a separate existence; that is the root of all this trouble. Even this one mostly doesn’t say ‘I am the body’. It says ‘This is my body’. So, who is the one that claimed that ‘This is my body’? This false owner of our belief. This non-existent owner of our life, which only the mind is representing. Even the body is not representing it; only the mind is representing it. That is the one that we are giving up our belief on.

Then we see that the true owner of this body, of this life, is Consciousness Itself, is Being Itself, is God Itself.

Q:  [Expressing how intense fear can feel; fear of death, fear of dissolution in awakening, fear of thoughts of wanting to die, fear of mental/emotional states like sadness, anger, abandonment, unloveability, aloneness, fear of body issues, sense of constriction, weariness, fear of the world, etc.]

A: This fear is very, very old; very primal, very primitive. This fear…, even now if I tell everyone (like Papaji used to say) ‘Be quiet’. What does it mean? It doesn’t mean ‘Don’t speak’. It just means that ‘Be quiet’. Allow all things to come and go. ‘Don’t stir an inch’ he would say. It means ‘Don’t use any belief; nothing’.

Then for some of you, you might feel some strong urge to get back to a thought; an urge to hide behind a concept, because it feels too wide, too open. So, this ‘Be quiet’ is not a constricted state. You were talking yesterday about ‘Be quiet’. It’s not a constricted state.

So, when we stay like this, you will find that something, something wants to…

Q: Be angry…

A: Something…

Q: Some problem…, not to be allowed to come to you…

A: Yes. Why? Look closely. Why?

Q: To distract.

A: To distract. From?

Q: The fall…

A: So, allow yourself to fall.

Q: But distraction is coming. The mind is saying …

A: Don’t distract; don’t distract. Now, allow yourself to fall. You said very beautifully ‘To distract from this seeming-sense of falling’. Don’t worry. Allow yourself to fall. See what happens.

Q: There are two things; some relaxation and like I will be a deception for you, like I was for my father. [Chuckles]

A: So, don’t go with that. Just go with the falling, with the relaxation.

Q: [Silence] Nothing is happening; just I can be quiet. And somehow there is some joy. And I can look for the …, I cannot force. I cannot say (mind says) ‘Fall now, fall now’.

A: Not like that, not like that.

Q: Something is aware of this.

A: Let that also go. No effort is needed.

Q: Because Awareness is here; it’s so evident. Yesterday, when I asked my question, afterwards I was ashamed; I was so angry. Mind was angry at Awareness. Awareness is here; of course it is here.

A: [Silence] Just allow everything to dissolve within this Awareness. Don’t try to escape from it, don’t try to run. See if you can let the distractions just come and go.

Q: I just feel very tired in this moment. This tiredness has come. Not the fear of falling but something primordial.

A: Yes, even this tiredness; allow it to just be here and see if it dissolves into Awareness Itself. But no rush. Don’t try to do anything. Just watch.

Q: [Silence] [Sighs] I feel too much pressure.

A: Yeah. Just see if you can just witness it, even this pressure.

Q: Yes, I can witness it. I cannot do nothing about this distraction of the mind.

A: Yes.

Q: And I feel also in the front here, like in the heart.

A: Yes.

Q: And there is a big fear of a big fall. But I can do nothing about it. I can be Aware.

A: Just remain as a witness of this; all of it.

Q: [Silence]

Q: I’m really happy for you to question me. But also just wanted to check. I was listening to yesterday’s satsang and (I can’t remember who you were talking to but it was Devi) and you were looking at whether the ‘I’ changes, and whether the ‘Am’ changes. And you said something along the lines of ‘Why don’t we just say I?’ (something like that). And I wanted to look at that because the ‘I’ doesn’t change and the ‘Am’ doesn’t change but they’re both different in my experience of them. So can we just look at that together quickly?

A: So, what is the difference?

Q: The ‘Am’ is like a.., it has like an attribute, of a feeling, a feeling of being here.., whereas the ‘I’ has no feeling to it; it’s Aware of the ‘Am’.

A: The sense of Being, the sense of Am-ness, is independent of the ‘I’. But is there ever the sense of ‘I’ without this ‘Am’?

Q: Yes.

A: You see? They must be distinct in some way, at least qualitatively.

Q: Ah, okay, yeah.

A: So, you also say that in your experience both.., did you say they’re both the same? Or what did you say?

Q: No. [Silence] It was something like; do either of them like stop? Or…, it was something like that. I’m sorry, I have such a bad memory. [Laughs].

A: Yes [Laughs]

Q: Is there ever a break in the experience of the ‘Am’ or something like that? I can’t quite remember.

A: Is there?

Q: Only deep sleep, but..,

A: But?

Q: Yeah, because I’m looking now at this sense of Presence and [Silence] this sense of Presence isn’t there in deep sleep.

A: That which knows this, is which one?

Q: The ‘I’.

A: Yes.

A: So, this is unchanging, isn’t it?

Q: Right.

A: That which knows that even the Presence of Being is unavailable in sleep state; to know this It must exist in sleep state.

Q: What the ‘Am’?

A: This ‘I’.

Q: Sorry, it’s so many words [Laughs] I’m just like..,

A: It’s okay, we can simplify. This Awareness remains constant and everything else is changing.

Q: Right.

A: In the phenomenal realm we cannot say that ‘Am’ is changing or Being is changing because everything is appearing only in the light of this Presence. You see?

Q: Yeah.

A: So, this Presence, when it plays along with the power of attention, then this phenomenal realm comes to life. Attention goes on an object, they seem to be real for me; they seem to exist for me at least. So, this is the phenomenal play. Now the entire reason we’re able to call this a phenomenal play must be that there is something which is beyond this phenomena.

So, how should we find That which is beyond phenomena? Because the tools we seemingly have; the senses we have, even the sense of inner perception we have, seems to be only giving us phenomena, isn’t it? So how do we find That? Is there something which is not phenomenal?

Q: [Silence] Father, I have to speak from the truth.

A: Yes, yes.

Q: It’s just Grace.

A: Ah? [Laughs] Was that the answer?

Q: Yeah.

A: Okay. [Chuckles] So, when we look at the two questions ‘Can you stop Being now?’ …, can you stop being?

Q: No.

A: Is it the same question as ‘Are you Aware now?’ [Silence] What is the distinction? First talk about ‘Can you stop Being?’ What happens?

Q: So ‘Can I stop Being?’ is like.., can I stop this, like this feeling of Presence, of being in the phenomenal?

A: Sense of existing, isn’t it? Who is Aware of this?

Q: The Awareness.

A: This Awareness, so when I check on ‘Am I Aware Now?’ isn’t it pointing straight to this Awareness?

Q: Yeah.

A: Which is Aware even of Being.

Q: Yeah.

A: Of Consciousness. Now is this a phenomenal experience? ‘Am I Aware now?’ What phenomena did you experience to be able to say ‘Yes’?

Q: There’s no attributes of the Awareness.

A: And that which is without attributes is not phenomenal.

Q: Just letting the words.., because I’m not very good with hearing these words, so I’m just.., can you just say it again for me?

A: Would it be fair to say that everything phenomenal has at least one attribute? Can we point some phenomena that has no attributes? Think of a phenomena with no attributes. Can we think? Think of an apple without a color?

Q: Yep, there isn’t.

A: You see? Even if you think of a transparent, there will be a sense of transparency (at least). Think of an object without any weight, no weight at all. Even the lightest feather will have some weight, isn’t it?

Q: Yes.

A: Without a shape…, can you find a phenomena without a shape? So, color, weight, shape, size; all of these attributes. Everything phenomenal must have at least one attribute for us to be able to report that it is perceived.

Now when we ask ‘Are you Aware now?’ what is the attribute that is found? [Silence]

Does this Awareness have a size, weight, shape, color? [Silence]

What are we seeing to confirm this?

Q: It’s not. It’s not even a Seeing, it’s a complete removal from this phenomenal world.

A: Yes. So when we say ‘It is not even a Seeing’ it means that it’s not even perceived like other objects. Not like ‘I see this hand or I see a memory, imagination’. It is not seen in that way.

Q: No, but It sees everything.

A: Yes. So, that which sees everything, how do we know of its existence?

Q: [Laughs] I can’t.., because.., I’m just really looking, at myself and [Silence] ‘How do I know of its existence?’

A: We can profess to the existence of Being-ness because we can sense the Presence. You might not be able to name some attribute but at least you can say Presence or Being is experienced.

Q: Yeah.

A: But is there such a Presence for This which is Aware even of Being? Is it experienced even in the subtlest way?

Q: [Silence] I can’t find a way to.., to word it.

A:  But is it tilting…, is the answer tilting more towards ‘There is some phenomenality experienced in this Awareness?’ or it’s ‘No’? More towards no or yes?

Q: Um.., I know the sense of Presence because that’s felt, but to say ‘How do I know’ or ‘How am I Aware of this Awareness?’…, I can’t find any.., I just want to say ‘It’s all there is’.

A: Yes. And yet, if we can’t really find any phenomenal evidence of it, what is it that makes us say ‘Yes, I am Aware’ rather than ‘No’ or ‘I don’t know’?

Is there something else like this; like Awareness, where we can say (except it just being a blind belief in some sense) is there anything else like this which we cannot find phenomenally but we confirm its existence?

Q: Sorry, Father. [Laughs]

A: It’s okay, it’s okay. The question is the same actually, I’m just rephrasing it over and over: How do we say ‘Yes’ to ‘Are you Aware Now?’

Q: Because it’s all there is; just Aware. I can’t find any other answer.

A: Yes. When we say ‘All there is’ what does it mean? What about this whole phenomenal realm?

Q: But It’s aware of the phenomenal realm.

A: Yes, yes. [Silence] And this ‘It’ which is aware of the phenomenal realm, who is aware of ‘It’?

Q: ‘It’.

A: ‘It’ is Aware of itself.

Q: Yes. [Laughs]

A: And where are you in this equation?

Q: It. [Laughter]

A: Okay, so you have this One. You are this Awareness. Then why did you create this world? [Silence] Or did you? [Silence] What is the purpose of existence?

Q: All that’s coming is.., [Silence] Sorry I’m just watching these thoughts coming now. It’s very much they’re seen as just thoughts but they’re trying to get attention and identification, so I’m just..,

A: Yes. [Silence] Okay, let’s leave purpose aside for a minute. What happens when you start to exist in this way? What changes for You in reality?

Q: In reality nothing. And actually the body carries on moving the way it’s always done, and has conversations and has thoughts like it’s always done; just knowing that it’s not You…, and the same feelings, but there’s not identification with them.

A: Do we truly know that it has always been this body and these feelings?

Q: No, because it’s the One experiencing through so many different bodies at the same time.

When Anil was speaking the other day and he said something along the lines of.., he was talking about the waking and the dream state; and it was so obvious that it’s the body mechanism that wakes up, and it feels like You’ve woken up out of the sleep but it’s actually the body/mind wakes up and then Awareness and the Being the Being-ness get identified with that body/mind and believe it is that separate existence waking up.

A: How is it that this attribute-less One, that we can’t find any phenomenal attributes to, can bring Itself to believe it’s either Being or this body/mind?

Q: It’s conditioning and the role of the ..,

A: What is this power of belief?

Q: Yep, belief; repetitive exposure to conditioning which is all written, all part of the play and then it’s believing the thoughts that comes through the mind…, but You’re aware of these thoughts, but you start to believe them because they’re so repetitive.

A: So are you saying that if this power of belief was not here, there would be no pretending or identification or conditioning?

Q: I haven’t contemplated this so I don’t know if there’s any other power apart from belief that would…

A: Okay, so maybe we can look now. So, right now, now, now, is there any identification?

Q: There’s some.

A: Right now, right now [Chuckles]

Q: There’s some. [Laughs].

A: If I didn’t give you a moment to think about the identification.., without a thought arising, would you be able to tell me what the identification was?

Q: [Silence] Yeah. Identification is feelings in the body arising which causes some sort of contraction or feeling of being limited within this skin, plus thoughts, feelings believed in and thoughts believed in that make the Being-ness feel like it’s contracted in a body.

A: Yes, so let’s slow it down. How do we believe a feeling?

Q: The feeling will arise and then there will be some sort of memory of that feeling, causing some sort of discomfort or something.

A: So a feeling arises.

Q: Yeah.

A: The memory arises.

Q: Yeah. And then the belief that it’s happening to a ‘you’.

A: What gets belief? Because there’s an arising, just like there could be an arising of a candle, there could be an arising of a flower. [Picks up a flower] So, this flower is there and there’s a memory of many flowers also coming. What gets belief?

Q: You believe that flower is you. (…actually you don’t believe that…)

A: [Holds up the flower] Suppose this is what is arising inside you.

Q: Okay.

A: And there is memories of all the flowers. What gets belief?

Q: The thought.

A: It’s a thought.

Q: Yeah.

A: So, the object in itself; can you believe an object by itself without the label? So, a label has to be a thought, isn’t it?

Q: Yeah.

A: So, the arising of a feeling is just like the arising of some sensation but the sensation itself without even labeling it cannot get our belief, and therefore cannot become part of our egoic identity. You see?

So it could be the most constricted sensation, it could feel like all of our life energy is getting constricted but without any interpretation what would happen to it? It would just be watched. So, as it is just witnessed there is no identification with it. For identification to happen there has to be at least a label, at least a thought. So, therefore if you were to not identify, what would we have to do?

Q: [Silence] I know the ‘answer’.., what you would say.

A: Yes, but you’re looking fresh.

Q: Which would be ‘Don’t believe your next thought’. I’m looking fresh, but I know from experience it’s not like that. It’s either that the energy is either there to come and believe it, or the energy doesn’t arise for that belief.

A: Yes. So, the energy; is it separate from what we call the power of belief?

This energy of belief is what?

Is it the same as what we call the same as power of belief?

Q: [Silence] I can see something is wriggling, something is.., is trying to wriggle. But it’s all watched from this space of Awareness but there’s something here that’s just wanting to just get away now.

A: Yes. Because something says that ‘Because of this energetic movement, either belief goes to it or it doesn’t go’. I am saying ‘Is there this energetic movement and separately that which we call the power of belief?’ Or are you referring to the same power of belief as this movement of belief?

Q: I can’t hear your words sorry.

A: Do you remember what you said last? [Chuckles] Okay, let me remind you. We said that when a thought comes, the way not to get identified with it was not to believe it. But you say that ‘I don’t see it that way actually. I see this energetic movement of belief (which goes to it or not’.

So I said ‘Is this energetic movement of belief not the same as what we call the power of belief?’ Is there a power of belief and also this energetic..?

Q: No.

A: It’s the same, it’s the same. So, this power of belief, you’re saying ‘Is just an arising. It is actually no power that is in your control as Consciousness, to believe or not to believe’. That what you say. Okay, so if I was to say, or the thought came to you ‘Hey, your nose is suddenly turned green’ would you believe it?

Q: No. Well, actually I would probably check.

A: [Chuckles] (Give her some other example.) If the thought was that ‘You’re actually right now you’re on a plane to Timbuktu’ would you believe it?

Q: No.

A: So, this is the power of belief or disbelief. If it was completely random then it would be a coin toss whether you would believe this thought or not, you see? So as the non-existent individual, obviously you don’t have any power whatsoever. But as This Consciousness Itself which is playing the game of pretending and not pretending, there is this seeming choice; to not believe your next thought.

There comes a point where you’re able to say that ‘Even all of this is just happening on its own’. There are two times when you would say this. One is when you’re lamenting as this person, lamenting as this person ‘But I have no control over my belief. What am I to do?’ At that time I will tell you ‘No, you do have that power because you’re not this person, you are Consciousness. This power of belief completely belongs to You’.

Then there is a second way of saying this where you would say that ‘Yes, this is just part of my play, and there is belief which is going to the personal identity, and it is getting withdrawn from the personal identity, and truly I am not concerned about it at all’. So, is this the way you’re saying it? Or is it the first way you’re saying it?

Q: No, it has to be said that it’s this, it’s the latter. But then there is re-identification after these openings, where the energy contracts and at some point there is belief in the person; and then there’s that ‘Oh, what can I do?’ And that’s believed, that thought is believed ‘What can I do?’

A: Yes, very good. So, when the thought is believed. ‘What can I do?’ or ‘What choice do I have right now?’ then you make the choice to not belief your next thought. Then you can do it. But then this sense of doership itself is not there and it’s just operating from the Witnessing perspective, then nothing; no trouble at all.

Q: No trouble, no trouble. But it’s seen that…, [Silence] It’s okay.

A: So, ‘Don’t believe your next thought’ is a pointing which will extinguish the sense of doership actually.

There’s an old story in India where the elephant trainers.., the elephants are very troublesome because when they walk in the market then they disrupt everything. They pick an apple from here, bananas from here; they disrupt everything where they walk. So what does the elephant trainer do? He makes them hold a stick in his trunk. When he’s holding the stick in his trunk then he remains steady, he doesn’t go here and there.

So in the same way our need to ‘do’, our need to perceive ourselves as the doer of something is one of the strongest legs of our separate identity. So this sense of doership gets extinguished when it’s turned onto itself.

So, when we say ‘Don’t believe your next thought’ that includes ‘What should I do next? ‘So in this way, as we are not believing our thoughts, allowing them to come and go, we will find that this doer perspective starts dissolving more and more. Then there comes a point when you say that ‘There is nothing, truly nothing to do’. And if there is truly nothing to do, we find it very, very, very difficult actually to identify as a person.

I’ve spoken recently about these two D’s. One is ‘Do’ership, and the second is Desire. So, these are the strongest two legs of the ego.

How does the desire manifest? Not necessarily just as ‘Okay I desire this, I desire this, I desire Freedom’ …, not necessarily just in the big ways, but in every situation that we walk into. Mostly for humanity, it is just checking this question: ‘What’s in it for me? What’s in it for me? What’s in it for me?’ This is the most basic form of desire. Everything it comes into [contact with] it says ‘What’s in it for me? What about me? What’s in it for me? What about me?’ So, as we are not giving belief to these thoughts, we find that this doership gets extinguished and this desire gets lighter and lighter.

And you will find that many of the thoughts that most people seem to be believing right now, now are not given belief; but some still get you. So, which are these? These are the ones that have gotten a lot of nourishment from us in the past that you have believed. That which you have believed yourself to be in the past, when it comes up, something still rushes for believing that. So the better way then (rather than trying to resist those) is to find out ‘Who is this one? Who is now constricted?’ (for example). There can be a sense that ‘I am now constricted’. But is this really true? Can it ever be true?

It cannot be; because this Awareness (which we are not able to find in space at all) can never expand or constrict. So, that which is constricted cannot be ‘I’. And as we see this, that ‘As Awareness I remain un-constricted’ then all this energetic movement can come and go, but you are not identifying with it.

As you see this often, then even when a thought comes ‘Yes I’m getting constricted again’ it will not hold onto you because you know it’s not possible. So, these deep identifications can be inquired into.

So there can still be an idea that ‘I will be completely free when this constriction stops happening’ but it’s not true; because as Awareness you were never bound actually. The seeing of this is the recognition of your Freedom.

Q: And I’ve also come to see that there was this ide

a playing out that (in the time bound part of the play) that all of these constrictions and energies and everything, that they would all be gone, and I was just like waiting for them to all disappear but actually it’s okay; even if they come back (I mean it’s not enjoyable some of them obviously but) now that there’s not this waiting for them to all be wiped clean it seems like the goal has been removed, so now I’m just here with whatever comes.

A: Exactly.

Q: But that doesn’t mean that identification isn’t, you know, coming in and out.

A: Yes, but with this itself, this recognition itself, makes the identification lighter, isn’t it?

Q: Yeah.

A: So, it could be anything. Whatever it is, (for you, it could be this energetic constriction; for someone else it could be some other identity, the work identity, security identity, relationship identity) all of these are basically beliefs that we have that ‘Something is happening to me. I am, so this is happening to me’. And once we see that this ‘me’ doesn’t have any reality, then everything is allowed to happen. Then we are not picking and choosing our experiences also. Then everything we are open to experiencing.

So, you don’t mind if a constriction comes or an expansion comes. There can be a sense of [Gestures a constriction] then comes to [Breathes out]. Something expands, but even this ‘Ow’ and ‘Oh’ is also just seen. So that, that which Sees is not touched by any of this phenomenal movement. That’s where we started, isn’t it? That which has no phenomenal attributes cannot be effected by a phenomenal movement. Isn’t it?

How can you suffer right now? Show me the way [Chuckles].

Q: Cannot suffer as a person, but can experience pain and emotional discomfort.

A: Yes, yes. That is part of the masala of life, because if it was not there and everything was just sweet, sweet, sweet, we would not appreciate the taste of sweet at all. I don’t feel there is anyone who doesn’t experience pain.

Any other way to suffer?

Q: [Silence]

So, you yourself made this thing today, this nice image which said that ‘The minute you find a pinch of suffering means there is some attachment’. So what is attachment?

Q: [Laughs] Sorry. I’m not very intellectual when it comes to saying things.

A: I’m not asking for intellectual answer.

Q: Attachment seems to be the belief in a ‘me’ or a belief that something is mine or belongs to a ‘me’.

A: It’s very good, that’s exactly it, isn’t it? So, the sense that something is mine implies I’m believing that there is ‘me’. And this itself is cause for trouble.

Q: But still there’s like, when I look and say like the word ‘me’, it does…, when I think about attachments, or there’s an image arising of something belonging to me, like say this ring (okay, this ring is not a good example because I don’t really care about it) but yeah, like the word ‘mine’ or ‘me’ has a vibrational frequency of a [Makes a noise of contraction] [Laughs] but that is Seen. But that contraction of a ‘me’ is still experienced,

A: Yes. Well, what happens when you hear the word ‘me’?

Q: Or, like, say my name, for example. If someone says my name Ziya, there’s an immediate…, the body responds automatically to whatever. Even if someone says a word that sounds like Ziya (like ‘See ya’ or something) there’s an immediate body reaction to it and it seems like for that split-second the identity snaps back into play until there’s a natural noticing of that; that it was just an energy arising within me.

A: So I say ‘Ziya’…, then?

Q: It did just happen then.

Q: I don’t know, it was like, just an energy. It was just an energy, it was just an energy that arose within, I want to say within this body but it was just..,

A: It was just experienced.

Q: Just experienced, yeah, yeah.

A: So what was the identification?

Q: That the energy was a ‘me’. It was a belief in the energy.

A: Is the arising of the energy identification? No. The labeling of it as ‘me’…

Q: The labeling, yeah.

A: This is ‘me’. And this ‘me’ came to fore[front] when my name was taken.

Q: Yeah.

A: So, if we don’t even buy this interpretation?

Q: Yeah. Then it’s just energy arising and playing and moving. Ah, that’s nice. Thank you.

A: So, if we just say that something, some energy within me just automatically stands up to respond, but we don’t say that ‘Oh this was ‘me’ and the ‘me’ came back’ or something like that.

Q: Yeah, yeah. It’s enabling the [Inaudible]

A: It’s very natural. If someone says ‘Ananta’ it moves energetically like that. Yes.

Q: Is there anything else you want to..?

A: No, it’s good. Thank you.

Q: Could you maybe ask something so I can look inside with your help?

A: Yeah. Is there something that you are absolutely certain about?

Q: That ‘I Am’. That something is here.

A: Is this an idea? Or is this your experience?

Q: It feels like it’s not just an idea. It feels like it’s something alive; it’s live.

A: Yes, yes. Who is aware of this aliveness?

Q: Whenever I look there, it’s like a black hole. I can’t find a ‘who’ but everything that would be believed to be a ‘who’ is kind of sucked in that hole in a way. It’s like something opens, but there is really no end to that. And it doesn’t have a form by itself. Somehow it feels like everything is like dancing in it.

A: So, that which is aware of the black-hole, is that also black?

Q: No.

A: You see. So, ‘black-hole’ also is seen. That which is aware of this, where everything seems to be moving about, dancing, or this big black space; let’s go to that which is aware even of this. What is the color of this one?

Q: Yeah. There is no color.

A: If there is no color, is there a size, is there a shape? Is it a void? Is it a thing?

Q: No. It’s nothing.

A: This no-thing, where are you in relation to this one?

Q: Somehow, there is a certain shyness to say that ‘I Am’ truly, actually That. There is a sense of localness somewhere. It seems like I am switching either I am looking at it, or I am actually looking from it at what I believe to be me.

A: Try to look from a localized me. Try to look from there and tell me who is aware of that? [Pause] First you try to look from this localized sense of me. And then see whether that which is aware of this localized sense of me is actually enclosed locally somewhere.

Q:  No. I cannot really look from that localized me.

A: Cannot really look. You see, the mind is giving you some visuals to convince you that the painting of the truth or the painting of awareness. First it gave you some big black space, for some they see some white light. The mind is trying to fulfill your request right now, saying that ‘These pictures will show you the truth of who you are’. But the mind cannot win in this because That which is aware of these pictures, can we make a picture out of That one?

Q: No.

A: Cannot make a picture of that. So, it is painting all kinds of paintings, it might even give you many interpretations, but there is awareness of all of this movement, which in itself you cannot paint or describe, isn’t it?

Q: No.

A: You see? So, This, if it cannot be seen like this, if it cannot be found through logic also, then how do you know of its existence?

Q: [Laughs] Well, if I cannot experience it, I must…, I must be It.

A: Well, you can’t experience the moon, or let’s say you can’t experience Pluto. Does that make you Pluto?

Q: No. That’s true. Let’s say it exists, but it doesn’t exist as an experience.

A: Yes, this is very good.

Q: Yes, but there is a tremendous certainty. There is a living certainty that it exists, not an intellectual certainty. It’s like everything that would know something is penetrated by that. I don’t know how to put it…

A: Yes, very good, very good. So, therefore, when you check ‘Am I aware now?’ on what basis is this answered?

Q: On what basis?

A: Yes, I am presuming you will say ‘Yes’. So, on what basis do you say ‘Yes’?

Q: It seems so like…, it is unescapable, in a way. There is nothing apart from That. That I could not, not be aware. That’s what I mean.

A: Yes, yes, yes. And yet it is not seen as an experience. It’s not experienced phenomenally. Isn’t it?

Q: I just want to make sure that you are not going with some visual again.

A: Yeah, yeah

Q: Ummm, no. It’s not seen as an experience.

A: Very good.

Q: And still certain states come up for the dynamic Consciousness, when attention moves to that point. To the pointless …, I mean, like a sense of vastness. All these sensations come up and I see that sometimes I kind of mistake awareness for a sensation, for a kind of spiritual sensation, which has led me back to the person many times before. Because there were some very beautiful spiritual sensations and they were… in everyday life they are not present sometimes. There are very earthly sensations. Then the sound comes ‘Okay, you are not in it anymore’.

It’s a very limited thought actually.

A: Yes, yes. So, now speaking from the perspective of this Awareness, where are these sensations in relation to you?

Q: Well, I am aware of their beginning and I am aware of their ending. I am beyond them. But they come from me; they are not separate from me.

A: Yes. Is there a sense of a primary sensation which seems like a basis for all other sensations?

Q: Yes. It’s not a very concrete sensation. It’s not a sensation with a lot of attributes.Yes, there is some kind of primary sensation. It’s like a reference point of the other sensations. What I perceive comes, is reported to this. Similar as attention; but also attention reports to this sense of Presence.

A: Very good, very good. So, can you find a point of intersection between Awareness and Presence? Is there a point at which they meet?

Q: I don’t know how they cannot meet. I don’t know if there is a point where they do not meet. It’s like, I don’t know. I can give some pictures, but I feel this Awareness was there before the sense of Presence was there.

A: Yes, yes. And yet they are not two now. Isn’t it? Although the sense of Presence is there, it is still one with awareness.

Q: Yes. Yeah. It is still made of this Awareness. Now, there are some very strong sensations; like space, expansion, all those things coming up. But I see I don’t need to prioritize them to this neutral seeing; not because they are stronger. They are more significant. It feels like the most beautiful is that still that it’s all being Seen.

A: Yes. And from the perspective of this Seeing, is there something as strong or weak?

Q: No. Not really, no. I see how still something is reporting strength and weakness; something is still measuring, something is still…, ummm.

A: Yes, yes. So, this form of interpretation, this one is the one I call the checker guy. So, you leave this checker guy with me today, because this checker guy will give you a lot of trouble otherwise. You see? It keeps checking ‘How much is this? What percentage of Awareness are you? How free are you?’ It will keep checking all of this. It will keep evaluating the different experiences you have, the spiritual experiences also. And it will try to keep giving you a report card. But it is also ‘the same guy’ operating as the checker and reporter, which you have to make sure you leave here today.

Q: There is a lot of identity connected to that.

A: Yes, yes. Because vigilance has been confused to be this checking, which it is not. You see?

Q: What is vigilance?

A: Vigilance is just remaining open. And once there is a sense of some prick (the sense of a pin prick or suffering or something) we are not to be in denial of that, but just to remain open and check: ‘What is it? What rotten food have I put in my basket again? See which belief have I got in my basket again?’ To look like that and throw it away. That is vigilance.

Vigilance is not a constricted state of constantly checking, checking. Constantly we are checking ‘What is what’. It’s not like that. It just this simple remaining open. But not to be in denial of something. If something feels like there is suffering, then we check ‘What is the mis-belief? What is the identity I have picked up in my basket again?’ And we look at that and we throw it away. That is vigilance. You see, many have confused that to mean some sort of a constricted state of constantly just checking, as if you are a scared soldier in a war zone or something like that. But it is not like that.

Q: There is no fear in the vigilance.

A: Yes, yes. There is no fear in the vigilance. This is very good; a very good way to put it. It is just a simple, open allowing and just a simple checking of this, without the ‘No, no, I want it to be this way. I hope no identity comes’. It is not all of that.

Q: Yes! Yes! Ah, it’s good news. I don’t need that checker. [Laughs]

A: Yes. [Laughs] Because that can’t be freedom. If we are constantly, just fearfully checking for everything, that can’t be freedom. Freedom must mean allowing everything, all states to come. But openly looking; not to be in some sort of Advaita denial of things. Just check. ‘What is the experience here?’ And we know that if there is a sense of suffering, if there is a sense of ‘ouch’ or yuckiness or something, then we know that we have picked up a wrong idea. So to openly look for that bad apple and throw it out is simple. That is vigilance.

Q: Because, the suffering will announce itself. Don’t need to…

A: No need, no need. And our sensitivity will become so much that the slightest pinch of suffering now is experienced. So, unless we try to repress it or push it under the carpet, or just fight with it saying ‘I am Awareness, I am Awareness, I can’t suffer’. But just to be open and to look and say ‘No. There is this belief here, there is this identity here. Who is it? Who am I?’

To then use the inquiry to throw away these rotten beliefs is simply vigilance. But we don’t have to be constantly just in this fearful state. It will announce itself (like you said very beautifully). Very good.

Q: I am so happy this is possible. Thank you very, very much for sharing the satsang like that.

A: That you so much, my dear. I am also very, very happy to see you.

Q: Logically, step by step, it makes sense, but the day to day experience is so strong, it seems that (the experience) is also part of ‘I’. It seems that (experience) is also part of ‘I’. So when I try to say ‘I Am’ it seems like it is pretty much the same as the experience that is being registered.

A: This ‘I Am’ when I ask you the question, Can you stop being?

Q: No.

A: Cannot stop. Now, whatever be the content of experience, does this sense of being change?

Q: [Inaudible]

A: So this being is unchanging. Something appears. Let’s take an example [chuckles]. Let’s say that a crazy woman comes here now, and she starts breaking some things, will it really affect you?

Q: It would affect from an external sense, yes.

A: From this external sense. But if [questioner’s wife] started behaving like that? [Everyone laughs] and she started saying some crazy things like ‘I don’t know who you are! You go home!’ (Something, something) will it affect you?

Q: Now I have to think! [Everyone laughs]

A: You see? There is a distinction in these two things, isn’t it? Why? Because [inaudible]. This woman sitting in front of you is an appearance, and the other woman sitting would be an appearance, then why is that when something like that happens with one particular appearance, it has more impact than when something happens with another appearance? They are not sending any light waves, which are different, like that [Gestures with hands]. Why is it that this distinction is there in the realm of appearances? Because you said very rightly, that, in the sense of Being nothing is changing, some appearances are coming and going, but they are just appearances. Now why is it that some seem light?

Q: I would [Inaudible] that the experience involved with that appearance is different?

A: ‘Experience involved’ means what?

Q: Well say for example the experience I have with her is different from the experience I have with someone else. And that is true for any other appearance.

A: Yes, but what do you mean by experience?

Q: Just the perception of interactions (this that) those kind of daily experience, memory.

A; Because there are memories of something…, there are memories of various things, we have had many things which have been constant in our life, for many years, do they all have the same impact on us?

Q: No.

A: You could also be meeting…, you could be seeing some people at work, there could be a receptionist at your office, there could be your fellow staff member in your office. You might see them every day. Maybe sometimes we are longer at work, than we are at home. We still see them for long periods of time. So, memory can be there [of those people at office]. It still doesn’t truly answer the question ‘What is the distinction? Why is it that something [some appearance] would be different from what some other appearance would do?

Q: Not sure. [Smiles]

A: Suppose you had the same amount of memories of [another sangha member]? Number of memories would be same. So, all these ideas would be there with you; that she has been there. [In memories]  Maybe we had enough memories implanted in your brain about her also. Still there will be a distinction if [Questioner’s wife] was to do something and if [Other sangha member] was to do something.

Q: I will say theoretically it should not.

A: There will be, because there is a sense of ownership about some appearances and no sense of ownership about others. If my children were not ‘my’ children, then they would just be ‘children’. I gave this example of when we got this garden outside, I went and planted some seeds. There were many, many plants in the garden, but, automatically what would happen is next day when I would go and check the seeds, I would see what happened to those seeds first. Why? Because there is a sense of ‘me’ and ‘mine’ attached to that.

Now, how is it that Awareness remains unchanged, Beingness remains unchanged, but appearances come and go…, how is it that some appearances become mine and some I am not concerned with?

Q: Attachment is definitely there.

A: Attachment; this sense of something being mine, this is attachment. And this itself is inherently painful because in the realm of appearances everything is constantly changing. So, when we say something is ‘mine’ then we are trying to attach to something which wants to change. In our own persona, in our own personality, we have seen many changes over the last 10 years. We say ‘Oh, I used to be like this, now I am like this’. So, that is changed. How is it that when an appearance comes, that we have this ability to attach to it? What makes this happen? Then maybe we can also figure how to not suffer from attachment. So, how is it?

Q: I would say the attachment is with the idea of a person.

A: Idea of a person! Very good! We are now in this phase now where I am questioning and drilling down on everything. So, what does an idea mean?

Q: So, idea is a mix of what I saw years ago and what I thought I would expect years ago, something like that; a mix of expectation and ‘What is’.

A: Yes, let us take a simple example. Let’s say a new one walks in the door right now and he comes in the door and the idea comes ‘Nice person!’ Or the idea could come ‘But they’re not so nice’. Are we the creator of this idea?

Q: The mind is the creator of this idea.

A: Yes, but can you say what your next thought is going to be before the thought comes?

Q: No.

Q: Cannot say; right. Therefore it just arises. Now mostly in our lives, and mostly in the world, what has happened is that, these ideas have come about certain appearances, and we really have no way of telling why it came with some and not others; why which ideas come. But they have been believed to be true, and they come.

So, to wrap it up so that it is clear. There is this ‘I’ which is unchanging, there is a sense of Being which comes and with it comes all of this world of appearances, the entire play starts. With every appearance, for most of humanity, there is an idea / interpretation of those appearances that come to most of us. When these ideas are bought, these thoughts are bought, then the capacity to call them ‘mine’ is there. That becomes an attachment. Now, anything that appears in this realm, that we call ‘me’ or ‘mine’ has the potential to cause suffering, because we have seen that this realm is a changeful one. It’s constantly changing. Even if we try to keep it completely constant, it changes one day. So, that which we say is ‘me’ or ‘mine’ must go one day; sooner or later it is going to go. So, what should our approach be, if we come to a point that ‘Living a life of suffering is not what I want’?

Actually, you are the only one in last 3 years of satsang, who has told me that ‘I actually have no suffering’. [Smiles] So maybe for you that impetus is not there. But mostly they all come to satsang and say ‘A life of suffering is not what I want, so how do I be free from this sense of suffering?’ What is moving in this realm is moving in its own way. Even our thoughts are coming and going. Without giving ‘belief’ to these ideas, is it possible for us to suffer?

Q: Not possible.

A: When we look at the basket of ideas that we have, you don’t have to do anything about the really strong ones you have right now; like the husband idea, keep it. But at least the small ones, like ‘I have an idea about how my work should go’. I have an idea about…, anything. People have ideas about their houses, their cars. Everything is planned out. And we see that life doesn’t dance to the tunes of our ideas about life, and that causes suffering. So, if we start by dropping those and just experiment like this and see ‘What happens? Does life stop in its functioning? Does this body become inert? Will my work stop?’ And you will mostly find that life continues with some beautiful flow. But our attachments, our potential to suffer becomes lighter and lighter and lighter.

Q: I see that to detect whether attachment is there to certain ideas or not, that is sometimes… [Difficult]

A: This is something you don’t have to do at all! Because the minute you find a pinch of suffering, know that it is coming from attachment. You cannot experience a pinch of suffering without there being attachment. So, life is showing you; it’s a big mirror which is showing you everything that is being held on to. You’ll find that all our ideas about how life should be then life shows clearly that that causes suffering. So, when you look at it…’Why am I suffering? Because this (something) happened. Why am I suffering? Because this happened’. This shows that it is being held onto. Because it is not possible for us to suffer, without holding on to some idea.

The mind will come and say ‘No, no, at least this idea, I’m justified in holding’. It will come and say ‘This is going too far! This idea, at least, I should be entitled to hold’. But you find that nothing actually can be held onto in this realm. Why? Because we don’t know whether we will wake up in this realm tomorrow!

That-which-we-truly-are remains unconcerned with the movement of this world of appearances; that which we are presuming ourselves to be. Maybe more important aspect of it is that can we call something ‘mine’ without first having a ‘false’ idea about who this ‘me’ is?

Q: Couldn’t understand?

A: Can we call something ‘mine’ without having the wrong idea about who the ‘me’ is?

Q: I see.

A: So, when we see that all these attachments belong to this imagined person that I considered myself to be, that never was born…

We talked about Awareness, then we talked about the birth of Being within that and the dissolution of it (in deep sleep). Then we talked about this realm of appearances coming and all of the ideas coming. Where was the person born? It was not actually born! It is just a bundle of beliefs.

So, that which we are believing right now, is that which we are calling the person. We mix up this person identity. It has no tangibility! No reality!

Q: So, there is an attachment to an idea of a ‘me’, and then there is an attachment of idea about others?

A: Exactly! So we can say get rid of this ‘me’ around which…

So, this ‘me’ is the basket, and all the wrong ideas are filled up in this basket. Once we drop this basket, and we see that this ‘me’ itself is the basic wrong idea, then all the false attachments will drop!

Because is there something you are attached to as Awareness?

Can you attach to something just being Awareness?

Q: No.

A: Can you attach to something as just pure Beingness?

Q: No.

A: So, first we must be attached to the idea that ‘I am something’ to then to say this is ‘mine’. So, either desire or aversion first implies that ‘I must be an individual or separate entity’.

Q: As a sage, you know that your highest position is the awareness of Awareness. Okay. You know that ‘you’ never woke up. When you wake up, there is no separation. Everything is You only. Now, why do you say that there is a separate higher power which takes care of everything?

What does it mean? Is it not You?

A: Yes. There are many questions which you asked in this one statement.

Firstly, just phenomenally speaking for a minute, I want to say that (and you know this, but just so there isn’t somebody who might get confused)…, a sage is just that which, at this moment, is using this voice to share the words of this Presence; unadulterated, uncontaminated (as much as possible, although it can never be zero percent); speaking from this direct-ness of unassociated Being. So, you right now, if you’re speaking from the un-identification of personhood, then you are also as much a sage as anyone else.

Then the second question was ‘This truth that Awareness is aware of Itself; this is the ultimate truth. Then why is it that we say (to those who come to satsang sometimes) ‘Don’t worry. Grace is taking care of it. There is a higher power which is Grace which is taking care of it’?

Now, there are two reason why. One is that (it is Seen here) that as this Beingness is the light of this world, it is not vindictive in the way that this world has been created. It is Seen that everything seems to flow in a beautiful way. And we have experienced this in our own life. Most importantly, when we say that ‘Yes, yes, you don’t have to worry if the sun is rising from the East tomorrow’…, we are not speaking the truth. But we are speaking to someone at that level, at that point of time. So, if you’re talking to a kid who has got some affliction, you will tell them that (even if you know that it is going to last for a few days) you say ‘Don’t worry. It will get better day by day’.

Depending on what level of resonance is there, then all this speaking happens. Why is it sometimes a sage will say ‘Okay, you, don’t do anything. You just surrender’. And sometimes a sage will say ‘Yes, yes, yes. You just chant this mantra’. Sometimes a sage will say ‘Just only inquire. If you feel there is something to do, just do the inquiry all the time’.

Why? Because in this play when you have those who are still presuming themselves to be people, then the role from here seems to be to play that ‘doctor’ role and say ‘Okay, what is this one afflicted by? And what is the solution for that seeming-affliction?’ Although one day, they will have the realization that there never was an affliction. But if you see they are not in that state and you say ‘Oh, but you’re not afflicted by anything’…, for some, they might experience the directness of it and see that, but those ones are very rare. Therefore, the sage in his compassion will say ‘Okay, what is it that is seemingly-afflicting this child right now and what will move them in the direction of the truth? What will point them in the direction of the truth?’ But [he] might not always be saying ‘Only Awareness is aware of Itself’. They might not even understand those words. ‘What is this awareness?’

Q: So, for you, as a sage…,

A: [Big smile] That term is not so attractive to me, actually. But it’s okay. You can say it.

Q: No, Father, something has to be communicated like this. No? What to say.

A: You know why? Let me also say why. Because when we use words like that…, (it’s fine, I know the space where you’re coming from. I also know what you’re referring to)…, the point is that movement in this expression [Ananta] has always been to try and show you that there is truly no distinction between us.

Q: Yes, yes. There’s no doubt about it. I have to become You!

A: You Are. We are One. Only there is a misbelief which tells you otherwise, and that has to be dropped. That’s all.

A: For me to be able to say that things are coming and going, I must be outside of that. As a passenger inside the plane, if all the windows were closed, if I could not sense the turbulence of the plane, then it would not feel like the plane is moving at all. It is not coming and going. You see?

So, to be able to spot that something is moving or coming and going, there must be already a seeing from the outside [of that something]. So, what are we really saying? We’re saying that all objects in this phenomenal realm and the phenomenal realm itself is coming and going. So, there must be something outside of this phenomenal realm which is able to report that ‘Not only are the objects themselves in this realm coming and going, but also the entire realm seems to be coming and going; and different realms I’ve experienced’…, so we don’t even know for sure whether we are coming, going and coming back or [whether] there is just coming and going.

So, for this coming and going, we see that this unchanging witnessing (this Awareness) which is outside of the phenomenal realm must be present for us to even know of it.

Then you say that so many great sages have come to this point of ‘I do not know’. And it is enough for them. They’re not reporting and saying that ‘I Am Beingness which is made of this Awareness’. They have no need for such reports and this is completely fine, because ‘I do not know’ means that ‘I do not know who I am, therefore I can have no attachment’.  You see?

First there has to be an identity with a ‘me’ for there to be something which can cause suffering. [There is no identity for] those who are beyond their suffering. It doesn’t matter what their expressions are like; whether they are speaking Advaita or they are talking about love or they are just the poor fakirs walking from door to door. If you have lost individual identity, that itself is enough to be free from suffering.

So this ‘I do not know’… ‘I do not know who I am’… is very, very, very beautiful and not to be looked down upon.

Okay, so this was the second thing. A related point which you said is that ‘You have to believe me when I say that you are Awareness’. No. Therefore, you must not make these kinds of beliefs. You must just say ‘Okay, he’s proposing that I’m this Awareness’. I’m giving you a hypothesis, you see, and you must validate that for yourself.

So don’t take it as a belief. You must not take it on as a belief, as an idea, because no belief is the truth. Even the belief that ‘I am Awareness’ is not the truth because Awareness does not capture the reality of what I Am.  So, anything that I can say after ‘I Am’ is not true (‘I Am whatever’ is not true) and ultimately even ‘I Am’ is not true. There is great power in [Nisargadatta] Maharaj’s words when he says that. So, let’s not take these as the gospel truth of something; we’re not getting into a new religion here.

So I’m not saying ‘Just accept’. I have never said ‘Just accept; I am saying you are Awareness, so just accept’. No? We are NOT saying like that. [Chuckles]

We are saying: What do you find, when you check?

What do you find, when you check? Then all the reporting can happen and you see that ‘My report is that everything is coming and going’. But you’re not making up this report. You are aware of this; that everything is coming and going. That which is aware of this (that everything is coming and going) is THAT coming and going?

And you’re finding that THIS is not coming and going. So, whether you label this Awareness or the Absolute, it doesn’t matter. THAT which can report, THAT which is aware that everything is coming and going, is THAT itself coming and going? And who would be aware of THAT, if even THIS was coming and going?

Is it possible to see or experience or even intuit something without there being this Awareness?

So, therefore, the words in satsang are not to be taken as beliefs but just (like you said) to be taken as pointers; to check for yourself. And then what to do? [Contemplate, look] Simply check; with what is being shared.

Then we can feel like ‘Yes, this is in resonance with my direct experience’. And when they don’t seem to correlate you can come and say ‘Yes. What you said; like this…, that which is coming and going.., but in my experience it is Awareness which is coming and going, but Being stays’. You can come and make this kind of question and then we can look at it together.

Then we [Anantaji] can say ‘Okay, to report that Being is here, must not there be an Awareness that Being is here? If you are unaware of anything (including even Consciousness) has it ever existed for us, in truth?’

Then these kind of interactions can happen. Those are the beautiful ones because the interactions here are not meant to be that ‘Oh, I believe this’ and we are fighting for our beliefs. Because the worst thing…, like the world, to kill each other for their beliefs.

So here what we’re saying is that ‘This is what is seen here. What is seen over there?’ Can we see whether there’s some blind spot that is not clear? So, it is here to clean up our eyes, you see; our true eyes.

Q: Now I’m asking you how the world happens. Out of the Being; but in the world…, we have bodies and everything, Universe and everything…

A: [Audio cut out clarity of words during this first sentence]: So, with the birth of this Consciousness, the appearance…, so there is nothing…, whatever we say is at the same level of reality and unreality.

Whether it is experienced as this sense of touch, experienced as a sense of smell, or experienced even as a sense of visualization, imagination or memory; all of this is just appearances in the light of Consciousness, isn’t it. So, just like with the birth of Consciousness comes all this phenomenal world, emergence of all of these powers like attention, belief, gravity, electricity, magnetism, light, sound, time, space… all of these are appearing.

Now, how to answer how these are created, nobody can answer. There’s no answer to this ‘How does Consciousness…? What tools does it use, what mechanism does it use to create the sense of time or space or gravity or light or electricity?’ At least I, don’t have a good answer for that.

All I can report from my experience is that when This is here, when Being is here, then all of these seem to come into play. How it is created by Being, what steps it uses or is there even something like steps we can say for Being…, I find that only we have to say that they just appear; made up of Being Itself, all aspects of Itself.

So, just like when you mix up all the colors, this Awareness or this primal Witnessing is now experiencing itself as if it is existing, as if it is a Being. And still it is made up of all the colors. And with the appearance of This, then all these colors seem to spill out and are seen. All the powers, phenomenal experiences as well as the content of this world seem to appear.

‘How’ is a question beyond answer, I feel.

Q: It is all appearance. The one who is trying to understand is not the true one.

A: So, let’s look at it like this. The ‘I’ that is aware of even this Being is the Truth. The ‘I’ which is prior to the ‘I Am’ is the Truth.

Now, what happens is…, what you’re saying is that the play of this super-imposition (as you call it; very nice)…, the super-imposition on this Being is the play of this realm.

Now, in the play of this realm, most are considering themselves to be objects within this realm. It is never true.

Now, in this realm you have all this…, it’s one big super-market that shows up. Now most of the shops are selling one story, that ‘You are an individual, separate entity’.

And there are some, a few shops which are selling this story that ‘You are not this. Look for who you really are’.

Both are phenomenal. Both are shops. There is nothing in this phenomenal realm which is the ultimate truth.

Yet, there is (as far as we are speaking from within the realm) there is also the appearance of great devotion, great love, great joy…, these come when we are coming to this kind of shop which tells us ‘I don’t have anything except this mirror’. And this mirror will transcend your phenomenal existence and show you that which is the Truth, your ultimate Truth…, which you have always known (is the funny thing). [Chuckles]

Just to put it in worldly terms, I’m selling you something that you have already known. Always.

Q: The choice of not believing our thoughts…, that takes a lot of effort not to believe; in a way, right?

A: For all thoughts, does it take a lot of effort? Or do you find already that if you say ‘I’m just going to let them go’ you’ll find that some will go? But some will stick; those which have been nourished a lot in the past with our belief. So, what to do with these? Is that the question?

Q: Uh, no. What I’m saying is that when we choose not to believe our thoughts, it is because we don’t want to suffer or go through…, follow the mind …

A: Just because they’re not true. That is the best way.

Q: Yeah, because they’re not true. Or I don’t want to follow the path of the mind, to not go there. I don’t know whether it’s true or not true; I don’t want to think about it, because it’s just too much to do.

A: It’s a very important point. Unless it’s clear that the mind is not selling us the truth, there will be times where the mind is able to ‘sell us some tickets’. You see?

So, we must be able to look at this and say ‘Why is it?’

Because every single thought has a presumption that the separation happened, that it is speaking to a separate entity.

If it is only One, only One, then why do I need a voice to talk to myself? You see?

So we must See now that these thoughts are referring to you as if you are [her name], as if you are a separate entity.

Q: Oh, I see. Okay.

A: They are not saying that ‘You are Awareness’…, ‘Hey, Awareness, you better pick up the groceries’. [Chuckles] You see?

They’re not referring to you as the truth of what you are. They are referring to you as if you are a separate entity. Isn’t it?

Q: Oh, I see.

A: So, that is the basis for not believing thoughts. Not an ulterior motive to be free of my suffering also (although it can be that).

But the true reason is because they’re not true. They’re not speaking to the truth of what I am. They’re speaking to the pretense of what I am.

Q: Okay. I see.

A: So, when we are done with playing that pretend role, we are done with the false…, because we cannot find this person; so I’m done catering to the needs of that one which we cannot find.

Q: Wow. You said it so well. It’s like a voice talking to my own Self. Why do I need confirmation from some other…, the mind to tell me what I have to do?

A: Yeah. Exactly. If it is you, then why do you need a voice to communicate with yourself?

It’s just like you pick up the phone, and the voice on the other end is saying ‘Hello. It’s you calling’. So, that’s what is happening with the mind.

You are already You. Why do you need a voice to talk to yourself? [Chuckles]

So, it’s just this wrong number that you picked up, saying ‘Yeah. It’s you. What do you have to do?’

And because it speaks authoritatively, we’ve given a lot of power to this, without really saying ‘But who is this? Whose voice is this? Who is speaking to whom?’