We Don’t Need to Know – We Just Have to Love - 4th December 2024

So the starting statement itself was very explosive. So you said once the self is realized, then you know that this is a projection, you are not any of that. You know, in a way, once actually the self is realized or you see that you are that self, then even labels of perception or not perception, projection or not projection, 'I am that' or 'I am not that,' they lose their value. We are not determining, we are no longer segregating and saying, 'This is me, this is not me. I am not this, I am the light, this is a projection.' So it becomes a very natural, almost infantile way of existing. And the question about then what to do next doesn't occur or doesn't really arise because you're not so invested in time. And the identity who wants to know what to do next or how should this life unfold is not so enticing for us. So in a way, it can be trouble or the mind's way to try and pull us back into Maya to say, 'Okay, now that this is clear for you, what are you going to do about it or do next?' You see? So what you're saying is once you know that you are beyond time and space and you're none of this, then what are you going to do in time and space? Nothing. Nothing in the sense that not passivity—not a passivity—but the activity which is always then Grace. We are saying that our individual doership did not come into the picture, then the realm of activity can continue by the same motor, the same engine power that was always running it. It is consciousness itself. So as we are losing the shape, then something invites us back into the shape. But then what? Where then all the questions come? The self will never say, 'Now that I have realized myself, what should I do next?' See? Because one of those statements has to be false. That there is a 'me' to do next has to be false, or that 'I realized myself' has to be false. See? So stay in the first and do what has to be done next. What is missing is... it's like, let me make it understandable to the broader audience. So if you're very happy with the meal that you have with you, you will not ask what is in the next course. So if the self is here, which is the highest of the highest, then we can safely throw away the 'what next'.

Just so you know that now, unlike earlier, there's perfect joy in just sitting in a room, you know? Doesn't matter, you know, you don't need anything. You can just... it doesn't matter, you know, because what you're feeling is not the room or the thoughts, but it's just feeling the great, you know, inner joy. So it doesn't matter where you are, right?

So who is sitting in the perfect joy? I mean...

So authentically, the joy is just there within the wholeness. And then, for the sake of like having a conversation, now I'm having a conversation. So there's now, you know, to respond to the question, I'm taking on the identity of somebody trying to answer. So this kind of switch in this case...

Yeah, becomes... who is compelling the questioner? In the sense that something wants to get into that shape. Because the question was not provoked. If the question was provoked, then you could say that for the sake of communication, then we have... true. But since the question is unprovoked, then either the provocation is happening from the mind or from the people around us. Somewhere the provocation comes and we say, 'Okay, now to be able to communicate, we need to share a common construct.' And the common construct is the notion that 'I am sitting in a perfect joy' and it's easy to live like that, but how is that acceptable to those around us in our lives? But given that in this particular case the question was not provoked, where is the provocation to take the shape coming from? Just be totally honest.

So, you know, now I'm just... I have some travel coming up right now from tomorrow. And you know, I've chosen in this life, while this is a most important inner exploration, not to give up everything else that was sort of happening and maybe change the way in which I look at it. So rather than looking at things as, you know, okay, being hassled by a thought that being out in the world will pull me into a state away from where I was previously, look at it more like it's all happening and my job is still to stay detached and not to let it bother me and nothing changes. So I've kind of adopted that sort of daring attitude. But at the same time, I don't often... sometimes, you know, don't feel the pull to do things. You know, like when you're traveling, the old avatar, you might be, 'Okay, I got to do all this stuff, I got to see all these people, I have all these things,' you know, like curiosity, right? A lot of those things are not there. So then you also have trouble sometimes prioritizing, you know, like what... because a lot of the juice, if I may say so, the juice goes out because you're feeling happiness just in the now. You know that actually even the travel itself is sort of something happening, some song and light show that's happening within you. It's not really actually changing the one. If you're authentically experiencing, you're still experiencing presence, isn't it, all the time? And okay, now you may be seeing... but these thoughts then, they don't make it easy to do anything. So if I were to say, 'Okay, I'm going to be a sadhu,' and I mean, I'm just honestly saying that I could just not do anything. But then, you know, as you rightfully said, there are relationships around, both direct relationships as well as other relationships. And there's joy in exploring the world too, from travel. You get joy from travel, you get joy from freshness of experiencing. So I'm sometimes... I don't know if I'm just... now this is just thought that's coming, and I'm getting trapped in that. But sometimes I wonder about how to prioritize the next 40... or how to live the next 40 years of life, because we're all young, right? So then, is it going to be just being in the now and not doing anything much? Will stuff show up? Because I haven't felt any deep calling for stuff to pull me into doing. Okay, from time to time, yes, actually that's not exactly true, but certainly no great pull that I need to pursue something. So just wanted to expose this and get your feedback.

Because of the way that appeals to you in your heart, you really have to authentically answer this question: who is having trouble with all of this? It's the person. It's the person. And the fact is that without belief in a thought, remaining empty, then none of this really affects you in any way, affects your reality in any way. So it is identification which calls us back because it says, 'Yes, yes, all this is fine. I know I am that light of Consciousness, or I know I am even beyond this I Am which is aware of even the light of presence, but let's get real for a minute.' It has that kind of temptation. But when it says 'get real for a minute,' it is not saying capital-R Real; it is actually saying 'let's get unreal for a minute.' Because I've seen you over so many years and I see that this is the road of inquiry, the road of Jnana, the road of Atma Jnana is what is appealing to you. You must really, when the mind bullies you with these kind of questions, you must really use inquiry and say, 'So who are we talking about here?' Because when it is crunch time, it will put that recognition aside and say, 'Yes, yes, that is clear, but still, you see, on a day-to-day, what should I do?' But that is when the rubber hits the road. It is in the day-to-day that our recognition is important. The mind then paints these pictures of saying, 'Oh, then you become too passive, you won't travel, you won't do any of that.' But that's not necessarily true. But you surrendered yourself to your own insight then.

Who are we talking about here? Because when it is crunch time, it will put that recognition aside and say, 'Yes, yes, that is clear, but still, you see, on a day-to-day, what should I do?' But that is when the rubber hits the road. It is in the day-to-day that our recognition is important. The mind then paints these pictures of saying, 'Oh, then you become too passive. You won't travel, you won't do any of that.' But that's not necessarily true. But you surrendered yourself to your own insight then, because the path of insight is not one where you can make compromises on. You can't say, 'That is my insight,' but you hearing just trust that it will unfold according to the will of the Supreme One. The surrender, yeah, just let go. Let's maybe just reinforce the basics sometime. Just let go of your next thought. It's sounding like something from twelve years back, but sometimes it's good to just revisit what seems like covered ground and say: Is that pulling us back in in some way? So any thought, whichever it may be, is pulling you into individuality unless it is just a sheer remembrance of God Himself. So don't get involved with whatever narrative it is plotting for you. Remain like you.

What this polar coordinate... no one is the radius, then the angle, then that plane, how it moves. One is the radius. There's a center, from center origin, radius. Uh-huh. Now it can go like this, that one angle. Okay, got it. Then the plane, it goes like this, these two lines. Okay, the whole plane. It's like, okay, got it. So these three coordinates. Okay. Now this radius, as it goes deeper and deeper like this perception, yeah, then somewhere at one point, the body, then radius lesser, then emotion. Is it this picture? I've been stuck with for many times because emotion, it seems like that is within the body.

Yes, it's not. It's not that spatial in the sense that you can't actually locate an emotion. Yeah, if the doctor was to do an X-ray or a surgeon was to cut up the body and you say that, 'Okay, I'm feeling a lot of lust' or 'I'm feeling a lot of hatred' or 'I'm feeling a lot of whatever,' then nobody can say, 'Okay, I've cut up the body and this is the location of that emotion.' Now the scientists will say it's all happening in the brain, and the spiritualist will say that it's happening in our inner realms or inner being. But as you said experientially, if you leave aside the cutting open exactly, emotion, it is contained within the body. You can say that it feels like, yeah.

And this going within, are you seeing that that radius is reducing, reducing, and just put the focus here? Yeah. And then you go to the being. Is it like when you say in facing this stay as close to the center as possible and then something will get revealed?

Yes. Okay. What is the most intimate place there is? The heart temple. Before the first thought arises, before the first emotion arises. And remember that I'm saying not because we are sharing a construct doesn't mean that it's a special place. It's a special place, but it's not a special place. It is a place, in quotes, that we have always known actually, but Maya has made us forget. Who lives there? Whose presence do you feel? And to stay there is also a strange construct because you should ask, or you would ask, with what instrument do I stay there? That's also very difficult to explain. With your heart. Stream of which maybe sometimes attention is a tool, but your heart stays there. You stay in your heart. Is your heart staying there? In a way, I don't know how to say these things, but I hope you have a sense. The first step is to be unconcerned about what is appearing. That is the most difficult step.

So a bhakta will trust that it is God who lives there and therefore dedicate their entire life to remaining with God. And in the Gyan path, we may say that I want to find out who that is, whose presence is this. And it leads to the same point. Both require us to remain in the heart temple quietly. Yeah. So my whole job actually is to help, whatever little way I can, for you to remain there quietly in love with God.

But asking for... no, I'm sensing a... like the intention. We may feel like our intention is to always stay there, but oh yes, is it some... like I look for perceptual evidence that I'm staying there? Like if there's a sensation of the origin or if there's some love and staying there correctly?

Yes. So after how much time do we look for perceptual evidence? Few minutes? So if I told you there's a famous Ram temple five kilometers away and if you go to that Ram temple, after some time you have a beautiful experience, see? But I don't tell you after how much time you have. Then by when do we start to say, 'Okay, I'm here'? And in that process of saying 'I'm here,' what am I seeing? Do we continue to remain there? Oh, it's like I'm there, but then I put my periscope out. I'm in the submarine of my heart, I put my periscope out to see, 'Okay, now is there joy? Is there bliss? Is there peace? What is happening for me?' So don't... after how much time should we put our periscope out there?

Right location only. So if you stay there, look for a perceptual evidence, how will you do it? There, the origin, some sensation. I'm not saying it's the being, or looking for perceptual feedback or evidence confirmation.

Yeah, where is it looking? Perception, I can say looking, what is... no, no, no. Okay, so let's go slowly. It's a subtle point. So the looking that you're talking about, at least the way I heard it, is not the pure perception. It is an invested looking. It is an interested looking which needs the involvement of the mind, like 'What is happening to me now?'

It changes the perception if that's that you're saying, like just change the perception, it takes you out of the holy place. This I don't...

So let's, okay, let's try there. And then if you say, let's combine all the questions. So if you then say, 'Okay, I'm here, now what next?' From the 'here,' can you see 'I'm here, now what next?' or 'I'm here, now what is the evidence, what is the perception?' You try it again. Look confused.

I feel I'm staying with the perception, not with the perception. Okay, so return to that which is prior to everything. Then what has to happen for that kind of investigation that you mention? What is the first step?

I didn't get you. Prior to everything, that part? Okay, so that radius, for radius is zero. Stay in that origin. Yeah. Now what is the next step that is needed for you to pursue the investigation about what is the perceptual benefit?

Have to do some practice like prayer or inquiry and...

Okay, that is to get there. That is to get to the origin.

I can go by attention there.

You can go in whichever way I'm saying. But to undertake the investigation into what is the perceptual evidence of something happening to me, like what do I see which proves to me that I'm in the right place? So that's... can that happen from the place of just in the prayer of quiet, in the remaining empty?

I can't relate to what you're saying. Can I just give you an idea about what I use? I put my attention there, that origin. Okay. Then I try to do some practice like prayer or the inquiry. That's good. Then eventually I feel something there and I take that to mean that I'm doing it all right.

Ah, okay. So tell me from that 'take that to mean' part. Take that to mean something is happening there, so it must be... just slow it down. So you're here, yeah, and you feel some love or you feel just presence or you feel just peace, whatever, let's not even label it for the moment. Yeah. Okay, you're here and this is unfolding in this way. Now what next?

Keep doing it as long as it's there or strengthen it a bit.

No, you're going too fast. Okay, so you said you're there, origin zero. Yeah. Now after you're there for some time, suppose some experiences start to show up. Yeah, they start to perceive something. Yeah. Okay, then?

Then super slow-mo, right? Thought came like... yeah, like I'll do it again. Yeah, some thought came here.

Have to look away to come to a thought, right? So you have to look... all the thought sort of pulls you, like tempts you with a certain sort of draw, with a certain gravitation. And then we just have to hold our horses in this still. What is that we heard the other day? This inward posture. No matter what tempts you there. Because to take something to mean that you're doing well or not doing well and all is already... we've lost the plot in some way. Yeah.

And by the way, it is not necessary that all of you have to do it like he is saying. It's a very... I have no problem with this process. It's sounding beautiful to me. He's using attention to anchor himself. You may use love to anchor yourself. You may use God's name to anchor yourself. You may use the inquiry to anchor yourself into what? The emptiness, the silence of your heart. I come to that place and there's absolutely nothing happening. Nothing. But is there a conclusion that nothing is happening? No, no, it's a no perception. It's even... and you are not concerned with there is perception or no perception?

Yes, I'm concerned. You are concerned? Yeah, yes. Mind then comes in and wants a certain or peace. Yes. And then I'm completely out.

Yeah. With the mind coming, you are not out. With going holding its hand, you are out. Let it come and let it go. You're making a relationship with God. Then a handsome man comes as a distraction. He says, 'Give me your hand.' So refuse the hand of that handsome-seeming man who's actually the ugliest one, but just let him go. It is well within your power to do it. Otherwise, there would be no spirituality. It is difficult, it's not easy, but it is not impossible. We revere the sages only because they were able to... they were just like us and they were able to resist the temptation of this narrator, the one who is weaving these narratives which seem very compelling and it seems like we want to go with them instead, so in the process breaking our connection with God, breaking our relationship with God. And then all of us will fail many times. We'll be tempted. I get tempted every day with the narratives of the mind. But we just in humility then return. In humility, just return.

So in this process, a deep love may come, deep visions, experiences may come, things may start happening to our chakras and all of these things. All of that is fine, but you keep your eyes on God alone. Some beautiful prasad comes and some beautiful distraction comes, you keep your eyes on God alone. One of the most tempting ideas is: 'So what does this mean for me? Am I enlightened now? Am I a true bhakta now?' You don't leave the Beloved.

Mostly is it the 'some in for me' and is it the one I like most?

Ah, so that... yes, 'I would like more prasad.' It is not prasad if we get to pick. But I know the temptation, of course. It can feel like that. 'Where is the love? Where is the sweetness? Is that experience, you know, whatever, whatever, something from the past?' So we all have to admit that what appears when we remain surrendered in the heart temple is not in our hands. But the question is: Can we trust the hands of those who give us or don't give us? Can we trust His hands, the Divine Mother's hand, to feed us whatever She feels is best? These are very practical things. Those who are practitioners of trying to remain in God's presence, these are the questions that will come up. And I'm very happy with this line of questioning.

And because the project is difficult, it is not easy, therefore a teacher on the path is helpful because you need somebody to just honestly tell you that this is the attempt and it's difficult like this, but this is the way you can follow. And that is helpful. Otherwise, it can seem too far-fetched to be able to live like that. And contemplate this. Contemplate means nothing complicated. Just look at what happened. Attention is drawn like this, event happened, attention got drawn outside. Did that change something on the inside? Did you leave? It doesn't have to be, but it can be. So just observe for yourself how it moves. Like you can live in your heart temple all the time. Can I live in my heart temple all the time? Do I? No, I don't.

It is helpful, otherwise it can seem too far-fetched to be able to live like that. And contemplate this. Contemplate means nothing complicated; just look at what happened. Attention is drawn like this: an event happened, attention got drawn outside. Did that change something on the inside? Did you leave? It doesn't have to be, but it can be. So just observe for yourself how it moves. Like, you can live in your heart temple all the time. I can live in my heart temple all the time. Do I? No, I don't. Something comes. It may not just be this event; it may be something which has a stronger seeming narrative, and then you get pulled out. But then, just to remember and return, that's all.

So Ram Ji is sitting in the library over there, but we are under some spell. When we go there, we are like, 'Ah, I'm never going to leave.' See? But because there's a spell also at play, when something comes and calls us—it could be the sound of our children, 'Papa'—then you forget about the spell. You get drawn into it. And then after a while, you may remember Ram was there. I forgot. I'm never going to leave, no matter what sound comes. Something—your bank account is empty. Bank account is empty; you forget. So this is the Maya, this is the spell of Maya. Then you remember. Is it so? As we mature in our spirituality, the remembrance is usually faster. Some of the biggest sages are also tested in very strong ways, so we can't always say faster, but usually. Usually that outward movement then... and is it a bad thing to say 'I'm never going to leave'? No, it's a good intention because you say, 'Yeah, I'm here now, Ram.' But you know, I don't know really like that. It depends on the texture, but our intention always has to be: He's here, why would I ever leave? And if you take this literally, He is literally here. That is why the best news ever is that He's right here in your heart. And it doesn't matter what tradition, what religion, what type of sadhana, nothing. That truth of the Atma's presence in your heart is undeniable for anyone who spent any amount of their lifetime looking truly in this inner exploration.

There's, you know, first one, there's a knowing of the presence. And then there's the inquiry as to who knows the presence. And then there's that, you know, there's a... and that sort of dissolves the duality. There would only be the presence—not the presence, but only the Self would know. Only the formless that's all-pervasive, all beyond space and unchanging, would know the infinite unchanging presence. And that's so, that's sort of established. And then, you know, then sort of the internally a voice says, then if that is the case, then everything else that's in that vast infinity, that vast infinity that's being experienced... and while this is happening, a space is kind of opening up that, you know, all the stuff happening in there is like objects. They're like objects coming in because, you know, only the one—there's the one that knows, and the one that knows is the infinite, formless, unchanging one beyond all time and space. So everything else, the body sensations... and then the body sensations also, they're fickle. In other words, there are times when they do the vanishing act, Houdini, right? So sometimes they'll, you know, morph. So then again, you know, you're like, 'Okay, thank you. Thank you for the little cooperation.' That this can't be the Absolute, right? Can't be the experiencer for sure. So all that is happening, and then you don't want to leave that place, right? So it just doesn't matter whether your eyes are open or not. I'm just... I don't know why I keep coming back to this, but maybe because I'm so new to all this that it's just this wanting to just be and not be caught up in the external side. Then you have to edit to the... you have to be very... I guess what I'm saying is it's difficult for me to actively do things from that space. And so I feel like now maybe I don't have to do anything because there's nobody to do.

No, no, don't worry. So this one that comes in and makes a framework—what if you're going to forget about that one? Maybe that's a trick. Just forget about that. Nobody can explain any of this in reality because you're enjoying yourself. Like, you're not saying 'I'm enjoying myself,' but that Ananda is just inseparable from just the ease of being. So then the framework maker sometimes poses as a very accomplished spiritual one and presents like the structure to us. The structure itself then leads to an ending like this, which is that, 'Okay, given that that is the case, then when I have to be external and I take on this shape, it's difficult to resist the temptation.' So okay, let's do an experiment. I'm here with you now. You are external. Shake me out of here. You're not being very shaky right now. It's very good.

What I want you to convey, what I wanted to convey, is that actually without our permission, we cannot leave this place. The mind comes, but they will want you to, you know, dance at their party and all of that. So even the dancing can happen—not that you have to—but if it is happening, then even that can happen, metaphorically speaking. But you can still be at the heart temple. What if they say, 'I have a few drinks with me'? Then I draw the line over there. I'm not going. Please tell them that you're high enough already. God is good here. Soon you'll stop getting the invitation at the office party. If I'm walking around meeting from group to group, you can see that the groups I haven't met are having a blast, but the trail that I've left behind... so then because you have that effect, then this call of wanting to ask more. Thank you, Father. I recognize it's all mind. It's all mind, okay? It's all thoughts. Just resist every framing because the scientist in us, and some of us have been framework-oriented, so the mind uses that sort of presentation of a very valid-sounding, high-sounding framework that can just take us away from the simplicity of being empty. And the framework also becomes like the mind's way of answering: 'So what did you understand? What did you get?' So we have to resist that temptation also. It's not about really what did I get in the form of understanding or insight. Don't try to frame it to me.

I wanted to... sorry, I forgot, not able to unmute. Yes, hi, hello. I was not here from the beginning, so if you just want to take questions from the ones present, then it's no problem. I don't need to.

That's fine. Maybe it's the same essence what you shared before, to just be without framework in the end also.

To what I was going to look into with you is this: because we speak and it's so beautiful, this intention to always be with God. And in the same way that the intention to get to God was very important, and He was very focusing everything and bringing... it's actually God Himself pulling the mind to Him. Also, this intention for us to be with God, I feel it's God's pull actually, to absorb everything of us, of whatever 'us' means. Yeah, but then from... so this intention, beautiful as it is, in the actual moment of abidance in God and where there's nothing else, the intention to always be with God also is not there. And anyone who would be with God or would not be with God also is not there. It's only God is there, and that feels like everything then. It also has... it feels like freedom, it feels like truth.

Yes, right. And actually, nothing... that space or that place or that time is so ineffable that we can't really say anything much about it. The point is only that: what can we guide as pointers for us to come to this point and to remain there? Because that which cannot be spoken, then we speak only in terms of pointers or helpful advice. Like, we can't really, really speak about love. So if somebody says, 'How do we fall in love? I want love in my life,' we can't really say. But because love itself put some words in our mouth and we want to help our brothers and sisters, then we just say that this is what happened. Because can I really say that when I'm here, what happens? That which is the heart sees, I feel the mouth has great difficulty in speaking. And if the speaking is going to be something which then makes us feel that we have determined the nature of this in some way, then that can also become just troublesome, like I was talking about the frameworks earlier.

So if it is utterances which naturally come from that place, and in that way it becomes a holy sharing, then that's the most beautiful, maybe next only to silence. But if it makes us at all conclusive and makes us lose our innocence in some way, then we can just let it go. We can't really know, and we definitely can't really say. We may know in our heart, but that knowing is not something in which natural language can express.

Yes, because to say then, to have the mind draw a conclusion, 'Therefore I'm always there,' it's also is not true, even though in the actual being you see that that's the only truth. I feel the humility what you speak of again, and I also feel as a... whatever the mind is here needs more of this humility and this outlook to always be with God is much higher than the state 'Yes, I am always there.' That's just not... it doesn't ring of truth because so many times we deny that deeper insight. And to have the humility to recognize that is... I pray that that stays, by God's grace stays alive. And that's... I feel I need you so much in this path for this.

Bless you, bless you so much. And I have to admit that this lesson of humility is very, very important. And it's here at least learned the hard way; maybe for everyone it is learned the hard way. But like, this is a very good example of what you were saying. Like, many times, unless it is just sheer utterances from there, many times I need to be conclusive about what happens in emptiness, which itself is an absurd sort of notion. To be conclusive about what happens in emptiness can be from this place of, 'Oh, I understood it,' or 'I have seen it,' or 'I'm progressing really well,' or to convey how much we have progressed. And many times it's just to convey to ourselves because the spiritual path can seem difficult and lonely, and many times it can feel like nobody really understands me. So when the mind offers us conclusions about what emptiness is like, then they can seem attractive because it feels like I'm getting somewhere in this whole process.

But what I realize in my life is, or I'm realizing, starting to realize in my life, is that it takes away from our freedom. It takes away from our love for God to rely on conclusions and frameworks instead of just relying on Him to move our mouth in the moment without the pretense of there being a teacher who is sharing or a disciple who is listening. All of these garbs, all of these masks have to go, and our life has to just become empty of ourselves and to allow His love and His life to flow through us without knowing what is going to come out of our mouth next. To surprise ourselves, maybe, in terms of what is being shared itself is a great gift I received by God's grace. And it also creates a nice softness in us, a nice softness in us which is away from the intellectual battle of knowing better or knowing something. Just that softness—tenderness may be a better word—like a tender, just tender love which doesn't want to be first in class or, you know, this childish conditioning. So just tenderness allows us to love God deeply, and we realize more and more that I don't have to rely on conclusions from past insight. Right now He's alive and He's here. If something has to be spoken about it, He will.

That softness in us, which is away from the intellectual battle of knowing better or knowing something—just that softness, tenderness may be a better word. Like a tender love which doesn't want to be first in class or, you know, this childish conditioning. So, just tenderness allows us to love God deeply, and we realize more and more that I don't have to rely on conclusions from past insight. Right now, He's alive and He's here. If something has to be spoken about it, He will put the words. I hope that is helpful in some way.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. The only thing I notice when we speak like this, when you speak like this in Satsang, the good thing is this softness and humility gets, and this love of God gets more and more activated. I feel it's so beautiful. But also, this fear of being egoic, fear of making mistakes, like this constipated way of looking at life a little bit. Like, oh, now it's again playing in the same old kind of patterns. And the only place where I really feel it's finished—but not like in time—is in this alive seeing. When it's alive, not when I'm speaking about it, that there's only God and the Self is the pure awareness that we are. So, maybe there's a holding there to that. There's something holding to that, maybe not letting go into not wanting to let go in the one who wants to stay with God, because I know that's a project in time and it's not possible 100%. So, the only 100% I found so far is this that you can't speak about, which is not a percent. So, yeah, so in a way, naturally something is oriented to that.

I hear you, I hear you. Just keep exploring what that something is. Your inner heart is flowering very beautifully, so that will keep guiding you towards your true north, which is His presence, His light. And if you feel like whatever you find that comfort in—in that sense, if in that comfort you find yourself closer to His love and life—then that is beautiful. If that comfort is like a reassurance that 'I have finally understood something clearly,' then no, it's not that. Bless you, bless you.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Welcome, welcome. Thank you. I hope I get this sense—I don't know whether I should be speaking like this—but often I have the sense, I don't even know whether it's often actually, but it's coming like this to say that there's like a teenage Ram who is just sitting around me and He's just looking at me. So, it is very beautiful in that sense. It's very, very reassuring that He's always there with me in this way. But also, it keeps me humble. It reminds me of the audience of one. It's very easy to get carried away, especially when you have an audience, just sitting there like this young teenage boy who is asking Sage Vashistha all these difficult questions, looking very lovingly and with a childlike demeanor. Sometimes I just imagine if I try to be fancy, I'm just imagining Him saying, 'Accha?'

This is good. You would wonder how these sages in the past would just like Mirabai. In such a conservative society where people would have veils that are this long, in that kind of society, she would just dance openly. She would say that she has forgotten everything about these worldly things, 'lok laj,' all of that. It is because we see that the audience is elsewhere. The true audience is somewhere else only. So, this sense, when it started growing here, that God is with me and He's looking at me—not necessarily in that outer form as Ram Ji or whatever, even inwardly—you start developing the sense that He's with you. He's holding your hand, He's carrying you, but also that He's a witness to everything in your life. It's a very helpful thing.

I never understood these things when I was younger. So when they say 'God is my witness,' it just seemed like something to say. Really, God is my witness right now. What is my intention in sharing with you right now? He's the witness of that. Who am I doing this for? He's a witness of that. And if some of this sounds like 'Big Brother is watching you' type scary stuff, then just contemplate why it is scary. Because this is a truth that we can't deny: He's with us always and He loves us more than we can ever imagine. He is the source of this little bit of love that I feel. It seems to overwhelm me a little bit; from His perspective, it is nothing for Him. He is the source of that. He's the light of that, and He's always here with that.

What you said about God knowing everything, He's the audience of one—is it related like, if God is the true Self, I can't hide from myself? We say many times, is it that? Like, I can't fool... is it something like that?

In a way. Let me try and clarify a little bit also. I was reading some of this also yesterday, that many times we look at God as if God is a force field. That there's a force field, so in that force field there is love, so that love is then equally distributed in the form of just there being a force field. You enter the force field and you taste the love. It's not like that. God is that and much more, but He's also a very loving parent to each of us. Is it? So when the mother needs to teach us something, when the mother needs to guide us in some way, she knows exactly what is needed for each and every one of us. And she cares like we can't understand what that care would mean. And He cares about the outcome, leading us in the right way.

So human parenting, or even animal parenting, this parenting is a reflection of His love for us as a parent. Like the mother is not just a force field where, of course, mothers are, you enter the force field and you feel love, but the mother can also give you a whack if you are out of line, you see? But it's out of His love, concern, intelligence. So in a way, in making God into a scientific object or a phenomena, we lose the ability to make a relationship. It's very difficult to make a relationship with gravity. Like, what is the relationship you have with gravity? You can say, 'Please be kind to me and hold me to the Earth,' and those kind of things, but it'll never become like a love. So we'll miss what the sages are trying to show us.

The life of Mirabai, Tulsidas Ji, Namdev Ji, Tukaram Ji, all the Saint Theresas, Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint John of the Cross, all of these—and I'm sure so many in the Sufi tradition and the Muslim tradition, so many of the Sikh tradition and every tradition—they're trying to tell us that He's here and He knows you and He is loving you like a parent, like a beloved. So don't relegate Him to just, 'Yes, He is there, Consciousness is there.' He is His presence, His Consciousness. He is Consciousness. But when you make it into these big words, then you just feel like... can you fall deeply in love with Consciousness? You can, but it's much easier to say, 'I fall deeply in love with God' or whatever you prefer: Ram, Krishna, Jesus, Devi, Allah, whatever you prefer. Or Consciousness, if that works for you, that's fine.

So do you feel—before you ask—do you feel like this loving beloved or parent, or whichever construct is your favorite construct about God, is a living reality or is it hocus pocus? That is the development of love and faith. When you trust and you have faith, you will see that God is the most responsive relationship, most responsive partner, parent, or child—whatever way you want to look at it—that we have in our life. The most understanding, the most kind, the most intelligent, the most faithful. So don't miss out on the greatest love that is possible in your lives.

I'm not saying that for you to love Him and for Him to love you, you must give Him a shape. I'm only saying that don't look at Him as if He is a mere natural phenomena. Are you getting that distinction? Like, He's too big for us to draw Him out, no? And our drawing Him out is very beautiful. And when done with devotion and love, to look at Him as Ram, Krishna, Jesus is very, very beautiful and devotional. But it doesn't mean that you have to frame Him in any way to love Him. But one way to not love Him is to think of Him as gravity or electricity or magnetism; then it becomes very difficult to love.

And for me, the highest love—and it's not prescriptive, whichever way you love Him is the highest—but for me, the highest love for Him is that beyond perception, beyond conceptualizing. A light which is so bright that I can't perceive it. Even the light of the sun I have to turn away from. So He is that light which, when I encounter, my senses cannot operate, cannot really perceive Him. But He is known in that nothingness. He is known. And from that no-thingness, which is the highest, comes all His expression, all this universe. So He has that. Everything that He is, is the highest love of my life. But as I'm discovering all the various ways in which we can fall in love with Him, they all seem so sweet and beautiful, and I want to taste and be in every one of them because it only grows. It is not yet... did I answer your question?

Yes.

Sorry, sorry, I stopped again, but it just comes with such force sometimes. The path of spirituality, in my view, is to be as open-minded as possible without losing the plot. Losing the plot in the sense that sometimes we are too open-minded, so then we dig a hundred wells but we don't dig any well deep enough. Sometimes we are too close-minded, we get too caught up in our own framework of what spirituality is. So just open, open, open, but in an integrative sort of way where whatever the lake of your heart you're filling with the holy waters, it just adds to more and more.

If somebody says to me, for example, that I should not say 'Allah Hu Akbar,' I would say I would fight with them because it's just the same God that is my beloved. I'm calling Him the greatest. Why would I refrain from using that beautiful expression just because some cultural or traditional or geographical differences are there? If someone says you can't love Jesus and Ram both, this is a sheer absurdity to me because the one I find in my heart has come as both of them. He's the same one. But you have to check for yourself: what is that point at which you're deepening the well? I'll take his question because I've stopped him twice. I'll take his way.

And if you start relying on your Atma, then even though sometimes the Atma's guidance is very different from how the world may be constructing things, you're really left with no choice but to follow the Atma within. And all of that helps us to be in His presence. Suppose we want to stay with the Atma within but we don't listen to His guidance, then it just becomes a painful tug-of-war session. Like children, we used to have—we don't want to listen to the teacher, then we will not fall in love with Him. Everything about Him starts to feel so full of love and so sweet and beautiful.

Some of that reverence does go down, like in the way I was... I don't know if I should... I'm just... I don't know if it's deepening, but like when you say God knows our deepest intentions, and when I can also to some extent know my intentions, He's more me than I, than this false self you're talking about. The Self—is it all right to say that?

Yes, capital S Self. And a Nirguna encounter with God, all that which is Absolute, is life-changing for all of us. So it is not possible that you come to the Self, the capitalized Self, and say, 'Oh, myself.' It's never casual. You're not saying it in a casual way. You're not saying, 'Yeah, that's just myself.' Nobody comes to that encounter—whether we call it awakening or a spiritual insight, whatever we call it—and leaves saying, 'Yeah, that's just myself. He's like my bro, just like myself.' It's never... no. Nobody has come out from that kind of an encounter without a deep, deep reverence and a deep, deep love. Maybe later when the frameworks start falling...

The Self, the capitalized Self—when you say, 'Oh, myself,' it's never casual. You're not saying it in a casual way. You're not saying, 'Yeah, that’s just myself.' Nobody comes to that encounter, whether we call it Awakening or a spiritual insight, whatever we call it, and leaves saying, 'Yeah, that's just myself. He's like my bro, just like myself.' It's never that. No, nobody has come out from that kind of an encounter without a deep, deep reverence and a deep, deep love. Maybe later, when the frameworks start falling into place and we think we've really unraveled the reality or something like that, then we might start saying, 'Oh, that's only myself,' you see? But there's no real difference between saying 'myself,' 'my higher self,' 'He knows,' or 'She knows,' and by saying 'God.' Whether we say Nirguna Brahman, or we say Self, or we say God in the unperceivable yet deeply known way, that terminology doesn't make a difference. That insight itself brings the reverence with it.

It usually brings a lot of things with it, like an inability to conceptualize, an inability to really frame thoughts for a few days at least, and comes with a lot of other byproducts. But nobody can have that deep insight of the Nirguna reality of God and say, 'Oh, that is just... that is cool, cool.' It's never like that. It is the highest of highest, the mightiest of mighties. Whichever aspect of the Lord you resonate with, whether you say God, or you say Shiva, or you say Vishnu, or you say Devi Ma, it's all Him. He knows that we can't frame Him, you see? He knows that we can't frame Him, and yet He must be looking at us like we look at cute children when we try to love our parents without being able to frame Papa or Mama properly. It's very sweet. So, I'm hoping, and I have a feeling in my heart, that it's sweet to Him as well.

Like we feel, 'Oh wow, thousand names of God,' but for Him, a thousand is just like among the gazillion ways in which you can refer to God. But it is my very deep feeling in my heart that all these forms of reverence are pleasing to Him. So, if you take Him to be just like a force field, then you say 'pleasing'—we want to deprive Him of even the capabilities that we have as humans because that seems, in a way, more comforting to us. So we can be pleased or displeased, we can judge right and wrong, we can say 'good, good, bad, bad,' but God? So we remove the parenting aspect of our relationship with God, which is a disservice to us. And the only way you can check this for yourself is to try it for yourself and see whether He is truly there as a parent, as a beloved, as whatever construct, and see. Report back in two months. Some patience will also be needed. You can't just say, 'Okay, I'm trying now.' No, He's available to us to love Him and to be loved, to behold and to be held. Beautiful line: that He's available to behold and He's available for us to be held in whichever way.

So don't get into that trap of undermining Him by making Him just into some phenomena like nature. Like people would prefer sometimes to say 'Universe.' Let's say 'Universe,' let's not say 'God.' But the Universe is nothing; it's just His peanuts, the Universe. So why are we trying to... I don't want to use the word 'depersonalize' because then it's like the person, in our ways, is called the ego usually, but I just mean to devalue the love that we can have for Him and He has for us. So let's not do that.

Yes, somehow I'm not able to put God in a form, and so Consciousness is... as long as you can love, yes. But the highest what I feel is the Holy Spirit. So that is the pervasion, or to be involved by... fall in love with the Holy Spirit more than... and as a child of God, there are many forms. There's Jesus, there's Krishna, there is David, there's Mother Divine. So blessed we are. So the Holy Spirit is...

Yes, yes. Fall in love with Him as the Holy Spirit, as Jesus, as Krishna, as little Devi, whatever. But the Holy Spirit, taste and see, is God. Of course, the Atma is the presence of God, is the Holy Spirit, of course. Yes. Because in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—so whether we say Nirguna, Saguna, and Atma, or we say the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, right? Whether we say Awareness, Consciousness, and then the presence of Being, or we say Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, it's equal. There is not... yes, it's neither equal nor unequal. Yeah, but we don't have to know, we just have to love. We don't have to say, 'Okay, Atma, the Son, Beingness, or Ram, Krishna, Jesus, whatever, and then Nirguna God Himself,' because that must be the highest. Our heart tells us, and it would be so strange for us, mere nothing, to look at the Atma and say, 'No, I feel you're a little low for my fifth grade.' I feel these questions naturally come to us, but it's good to look at them a little from a distance.

And we are talking about who God is expressing Himself as, being present to us as. And anyway, the Holy Spirit you cannot bypass in any way on the spiritual path. That is why it is spirituality. Maybe it's because you make this sign, so it's like it would be a different location. I don't know, I have to study a little more about why the sign is like that. But you cannot do this without the Satguru presence within, and that is the Holy Spirit, that is the Atma. It is the same one. And if you love God, then it is not possible that you don't love His spirit, that you don't love the Atma. If you love the Atma, it is not possible that you don't love God.

Maybe this child believes God is there, Jesus is here, and the Holy Spirit is everywhere. So this concept is...

Well, they also say God is there, Jesus is holding our hand next to us, and the Holy Spirit is within us. So there are many different constructs to make that relationship with God. But the simplest thing I'm saying is that then you go within yourself and you reach a place which feels holy. It is holy because of the presence of the Atma there. And there is nothing in you in that moment which can deny the fact that this holiness is where you're meant to be, the highest that you've ever come across, no matter which universe you're inhabiting, which lifetime this is. And then it is up to this holy teacher to tell us. But can anyone really come to this holy place and say, 'Now I'll go only for the Nirguna for me'? These are just intellectual speculations.

So if you were to tell that one that you will never taste your Atma within unless... only if they tasted it. If they never tasted it anyway, then they'll say, 'Yeah, okay.' Really, the only reason to be alive is so that you can be with Him. And imagine that, okay, let's suppose that there is a category. Okay, there is God, then there are all the incarnations, the Word which was with God right from the beginning, which take the form of these incarnations, including He who is the Son of God. So then those... then the lowest category, forgive me, say suppose the lowest category is the Spirit. Is it? So are we going to say that the lowest category of being able to meet God is not good enough for us?

I'm in no way saying that the Atma is in any way the lowest. I'm not at all saying that. He is my Guru. But I'm just saying that only in our intellect can we come into those kind of things, that 'I will only my part.' Who are you? You were born a few years back, you will die in a few years. What are you talking about, making conclusions about God for whom this universe is nothing at all but a plaything, a tiny toy? If God sent us a nail, the nail got too big and He cut it with His nail cutter, and that came to us, we would hold that and worship it with all our might. Only through the Atma can you really see the greater truths—not greater than Atma, but the greater truths which are inaccessible through perception and through thinking. So that which we call intuitive is actually spiritual, Spirit-guided.

It depends on our intention. If it's coming from a place of pride, then maybe... if it is more like a child exploring what is really what I feel, that's completely acceptable. And God is not sitting there judging and saying... I'm nobody to speak about what He's doing, but Ram Ji is not sitting over there saying, 'Oh, you want only Nirguna, is it? Let me show you. Here's one bow, one arrow coming to you.' My simple point is that because of some self-limiting idea, don't get in the way of your own love for God, because the mind will love to offer you these kind of ideas. So be as open-minded as you can while keeping your heart steady.

When satsang started, I felt like it's going to be a satsang from twelve years back, but I loved the way it turned out also. That was also very beautiful. It is like when old Ananta was speaking. But 'Who are you?'—Atma's favorite question—is a very potent path. So many beautiful gifts from God, so many beautiful pathways to Him. Stop it at least for today. No, the point is you can't. The point is you can't. The point is that we can't make a point. Our point-making ability is too limited, and usually we make points just to make points. So to let go of that is your inner life.

Last question for today and then we can close: Is your inner life as important to you as your outer life? At least, I mean, then we start working the life of spirituality. Just try giving your heart to Him. I promise you, you will not regret it. Leave the high hearts of pride, become like innocent children, and offer yourself fully to Him. Even if it seems absurd, just do it. You will not regret it. Jai Satguru Charan.