Without Your Representations, You Are Completely at Home, You Are Completely Free - 1st October 2021

So when we look at everything that we can perceive, that which you call fear and dread also is in the realm of perception, isn't it? And also that it is here right now, right now in some way. So just see if you can meet that without the sense that this has to go, or this is not good for me, or this has to be fixed in some way. Like, none of the messaging around it, just the meeting of the sensation, the perception itself. Don't shy away from it or run away from it. See if it can be met just for what it is. To check where it is appearing. When you really check, what is the relative size of this appearance in contrast with the space in which it is coming? How much of the space is it taking?

Well, none right now, but you're with me. Like, you're calming me right now. But when it's there, it's blocking and kind of debilitating.

Yes, yes. Now you will notice as you come to more and more pure perception that it is impossible for a perception in itself to block anything in reality. Because you, the witness of that whatever may be being perceived, is not in the same realm as the perception may be. It is not at the same level. It's not that these dancing images is where you are as well, and therefore then these dancing images may be able to hold you or control you in some way, you see? It's when we insert ourselves at the same level as the realm of perception then it can feel like, 'But I am just another part of the play of sensation just like they are, and therefore then I can be constrained by them,' isn't it?

It's just like if there's too much traffic on the road, can it constrain a cloud? Or can it limit the cloud? Very obvious, absurd sort of question, of course. But just drawing a metaphor, just defining this sort of level difference between what you are and what our mind conveys us to be, you see. In fact, you are the entirety of the space which includes the sky and all of that, and the road is just a tiny aspect. Now, what makes us believe that these sensations are something which have to go or they constrict us? So if it's not there at the moment, you can just imagine it to be there and just represent from there, saying that just the sensation in itself, does it have the power to really convey to us that this has to go, or this is bad, when will I be over this? No.

So what is the first step you need to take? So suppose the project was the opposite. Suppose the project was you have to take a sensation and make it meaningful enough so that it can stop you or it can constrain you in some way.

Well, definitely my focusing on it.

Okay. Suppose now that all your attention is on something. Okay, suppose the attention is on this hand. Now how will this hand constrain you or constrict you in any way? You cannot do it. You can't do it just with attention. You can't. So if by focusing you mean just attention going to it, and therefore then spirituality seems to be a big project about trying to control attention, which seems so effortful—and I've honestly never met someone with that kind of mastery over their attention anyway—so then therefore spirituality cannot be about that. Although there are some sadhakas who may claim they have that kind of mastery, we have yet to meet one, so I won't rely on those kind of reports. So what else is needed besides attention going to it?

Well, when I'm in it, I'm definitely like feeding it. Like there must be a story behind it or a belief in it, whatever it is.

Before we're reconstructing this for everyone, so let's go really slowly. So before you can insert it in your story—this is the sensation—how will you write a story, put it in a story?

My job's too hard.

Well, okay. This sensation, this one, this—oh, just that one. Yeah, put it in your story in the sense that you would then have to say that Ananta was sitting in front of me on Zoom and he was shaking his hand. So all these labels would have to be inserted first before you can include this in your story. Just this in itself, can you do it? And all of you can try. Just this in itself, put it in your story. Can you do it? Nobody can do it. And our sensations are just like this.

So before the claim of knowledge about what this is, you see, doesn't come before that, we are innocent. You see, before that we are spacious, we are free. Once the claim comes, 'I know this is fear, this is anxiety,' now once we called it that, then it's easy to answer. But we have to not only label this, we have to label ourselves, we have to label other things which are in our perception. And then this harmless perception, play of sensations, once we have decided what it means, then that can be inserted into our story in a seemingly negative or a seemingly positive way.

Is it too much for everyone? Is it okay to look like this for a minute? You see, I'm saying something very simple actually. I'm talking about the claim to knowledge which we really don't have, or at least the mind doesn't have in that way where it converts a dance of imagery, a dance of sensations, a dance of perception, because it cannot deal with it. The mind cannot understand or fathom any moment of our existence. It has to then label it and say, 'Ah, this is fear happening to me,' or 'This is joy with me,' or 'This is anxiety happening to me, and it is because I am in satsang or because I am not in satsang or because of my job' or any of this.

But what is the mode of knowledge using which we can confirm that that is true or real? What can we rely on truly to say, 'Yes, this is really what is happening'? This is the weeping. We lost electricity, so that seems to be okay.

It's the belief in the thought around it. Like, but it's—I know, I hear what you're saying, I understand what you're saying, and the intensity of the sensation in the body in that moment, I don't know how to isolate that from the belief or thought.

Yes, so we will deconstruct that. So first the proposal has to come from the mind, isn't it? That this is fear and this fear is happening because of this, and therefore in the 'because' you have inserted it into your narrative, you see. Now, I want to tell you this, and all of you can experiment with this. You see, I'm just showing you freedom actually. Many of you may feel like, 'What is he talking about?' I'm just showing you what freedom looks like.

So you will notice, if you really notice, you will notice that no two sensations are ever the same. No two sensations are ever the same. Just like the philosopher said, you've never stepped into the same river twice. Every moment of our perceptual experience is completely unique. But the mind, whose mechanism is to try and make stories out of everything, it cannot do with that. It needs to have these broad frames in which to frame things and to conclude things, you see.

So even right now, can you look at any sensation, whether it is joyful, painful, pleasurable, anything that is experienced at this moment, and can you just look at it with pure perception and then tell me whether you really can say you have an idea about what this is? And it can be a perception of sight or it can be a feeling, it can be at any layer of your existence.

No. The sensation comes first and then the thought comes to link up with it.

Yes, and the order of it doesn't really matter. Sometimes the thought comes first and then the sensation comes. 'Ah, see, I'm here,' says the thought, right? This can also feel like, you see. But the thing is that differentiation in itself is not decipherable to our mind. It's not something that can truly be understood by our mind. And if even this much we can see today, it is a worthwhile satsang. It's a worthwhile satsang because this false meaning-making, false idea about what is happening to me, is what makes us involved in our egoic limited identity. And to allow yourself to be just naked of these representations is actually what freedom looks like.

Can any of you truly look right now at any level of perception and tell me really if you know what that is? Look at any feeling which is arising and tell me whether you truly have a way to measure and to conclude that this is what something means.

Not without mind, you can't.

Okay, very good. So the mind has all the labels and the ideas about what something is. Without that representation, what are you? Who are you? Where are you? Why are you? Without mind, then there's no answer. Now, without this apparent answer, what is your condition? You may say that without mind I can't even say that, so let me say it for you. So you actually are completely at home. Without your representation, you are completely at home. You are completely free. Including the tears appearing on the body. But one thing has to change, because all of this is completely allowed, it's completely done.

So we have relied on ignorance as if it is knowledge. You relied on mental concepts as if they are true knowledge. And it is only in these ignorant stories that we have about ourselves—that we are this character who has his body, then has his things to take care of, and then relationships and money and jobs and freedom and all of that—are about this character who actually has no real existence. Has no existence even in the realm of the play of the manifest, you see. So what is the error, in a way, is the taking the false representation to be true.

See, now what happens is as you empty of the false representation that is trying to tell you, 'This is what is happening to me,' because without that we are too open and we feel like, 'I don't know what I have to fix because first I have to determine what is happening to me.' So the purpose of the narrative is to keep us trapped in this constant sort of journey. But empty of that, I'm telling you that you are not lost. In fact, the divine intelligence is completely apparent. It's just like a culture shock, just like a culture shock.

The falsity of the false representation that is trying to tell you 'this is what is happening to me' is because without that, we are too open and we feel like 'I don't know what I have to fix because first I have to determine what is happening to me.' So the purpose of the narrative is to keep us trapped in this constant sort of journey. But empty of that, I'm telling you that you are not lost. In fact, the divine intelligence is completely apparent. It's just like a culture shock. Just like a culture shock, we're so used to being spoon-fed ignorance, you see. So as we let it go, we meet our intuitive intelligence. But for a while, it can feel too like 'I don't know what to do with this. How will this help me?' because the grasping of the 'me' to still seem relevant can still go on for a bit. So the messages will still come to mind in this way. But if you just allow the wobbliness to wobble—and all of this is just symptomatic of the wobbliness, you see—all of this which is happening, using the job as a pretense, is very symptomatic of the wobbliness of coming to freedom in one way or the other.

So this is what happens. Then it makes this, and it makes us a tiny little thing contained in this tiny little story, you know? Wakes up in the days and goes to jobs and has a bad day at work and then comes back and, you know, all the things happening. And then little old me is stuck in all of that. Whereas in reality, what are you? You are the shining light in which this whole universe is appearing right now. You're even beyond that, but at least you are the shining light in which the universe is appearing right now. And how far we are from that representation—that is the shocking part about the Leela, or how compelling it can seem that we can seem to become so tiny, you see. Just this bucket of food that we take ourselves to be. And then, empty of the stories, empty of false knowledge, allow your divinity to shine through. And it automatically does; you can't stop it. The only way to sort of blur this inside is to take the false representation to be true.

So what I'm sharing with all of you is the antidote to all seeming problems. It's not just for one problem that Kisha has brought out; it is to all seeming problems. And remember that the doorway to the error is the false claim to knowledge about something that we don't know, you see. Conceptually, you don't. Now, the same sensation or perception, what does it mean to the heart? What does it mean empty of mental representation? Just pure experiencing. It's not bad, just pure experiences. In the pure perception you're experiencing, is there a boundary to you? Can something happen to you? Can there be such a thing as a problem? Who is sitting in your heart now? Who is breathing your breath? Whose light are you hearing these words? Which light are you seeing this light? The light of the sun, the light of the light in your room—and whose light is that? What can dim that light of your Atma, of your being? What can appear in this play that can dim the light of your being itself?

The only thing that seems to blur it or dim it is our knowledge—not true knowledge, but our conceptual knowledge. Isn't that a shock? Because we felt like knowledge is meant to help us. It only robs us of our innocence and makes us believe that we are something that we can never be. Then does that mean that there is no true knowledge? It doesn't mean that. There's a universal intelligence which is the very core, very center of yourself, you see. But that only becomes apparent as we let go of the false. And it is not translatable into words, and yet, like in the words of Satsang, it can be pointed to. So it is not as if we are left without knowledge, but without truth. In fact, it is the coming to truth. But the instant you insert the false into it, into this, then it is inevitable that we buy the story about ourselves.

Then what happens is once I know—once I know that this appearance is fear—I also claim to know what I am, isn't it? This may be a bit subtle; I don't know if it's going too far. Once we label anything, we've also identified ourselves to be something, isn't it? So once you say 'I am experiencing a lot of fear,' which we don't really know because the sensation is just unique in this very moment. And this is in no way running away from the taste of the sensation; it is to embrace it fully. And the only way to embrace it fully is not to meet it through preconceived ideas, you see. And a preconceived idea is a label. You have to probably transcribe this conversation because I see that a lot of points this mouth is making, but it may be a bit fast to assimilate, you see.

So what happens is we meet someone, we say, 'Ah, American. American. Ah, British. Ah, yes, yes, Indian. Ah, yes, yes, Jamaican,' you see. So what are we doing then? Okay, what are we doing then when we do that? What are we doing? Is that helping for us to meet that one? Suppose a visitor comes to your house. How does it help to say American or British or Jamaican or Indian? It only helps—it seems to help—because the mind has no way of dealing with that one completely. It has to put people in a box and say, 'Aha, oh, this one man, this woman, this one young, this one old.' So based on these determinations, the mind suggests the next move. It says, 'Ah, hello, you know, howdy,' if you look Midwestern or something. Which part of America? But this is the whole play of time, isn't it? The play of the false insertion of yourself into this narrative called time is based on what we may consider to be just the simple knowledge.

So the minute we've determined, 'Ah, this is fear,' then all the baggage about fear—about how it should not be, how it is oppressive—all of this comes. It's the same thing as just somebody coming to your door and you label them something: American, Indian, whatever. But does it really help in the true meeting? No. It seems to happen so fast, though. So when it is not happening fast—because when it's happening fast, I know this trick of the mind will say, 'But it just happened. I have no power over this.' And that, of course, is a representation of not you as consciousness, but as you as somebody. Okay, I can understand that there are times where you can feel like it just happens. Nothing just happened, for God's sake. But provisionally, suppose we just take that to be true. We take that. But now, at least being in Satsang for some time, it cannot be that it always just happens, you see. There must be at least one time out of a hundred where you can notice the proposal and you can notice the acceptance of the proposal, you see.

So in that one time, let that proposal come and go. That one time with that proposal, that much is enough. See, that much is checkmate for the mind. So you don't have to—this is good news—you don't have to fix it for always. You only have to fix it for the next one, see? And the ones that are gone, you are stuck, you identified, and it's okay. That's fine, it's gone. But the freshness of God is so immense in this moment that one moment of meeting God without any of these constructs, mental constructs, is healing all your lifetimes. So what the mind will do is try to bring the problem back in the realm of time and say, 'Now it's fine, but tomorrow? What about tomorrow when you're not there?' You see, it will try to bring the problem back into the realm of linearity, whereas the solution is to transcend time.

It wants to use what you're hearing in Satsang as if it will help you personally. But it cannot help you personally because only your idea of yourself is in time. You cannot be in time. And all of you can actually try this: just insert yourself into time. Can you do it? Your body can be in time, apparently. I can't confirm that, but it can seem like it was here, now it is here, now it is there, now they're saying this—all of this. But can you be in time? And the thing is that even the body actually is not problematic because the body doesn't have a job, does it? The body is not worried about the boss at work tomorrow or whenever. The body doesn't have a bank account. But there is a representation we have about ourselves that does. So apparently, the one in time has no problem. The one out of time can have no problem. But the imagined one, which is trying to straddle both these realms, seems to have all the problems. Is the audio clear or unclear? I just read a message.

So do I have a solution for Kisha? No, I actually don't. But I have a solution from Kisha. No appearance in life, and in fact, no life is ever oppressive to what you are in reality. At best, it's just a plaything to what you are in reality. But if we take ourselves to be a limited object within this play of life, then suppose it's too much. Nobody can handle it. It's too much. How can one tiny little thing, you see, handle this life where you're sitting on this ball which is running at such fast speed around the sun and rotating around itself in a vast universe of trillions of these planets, you see? And looking for God, who we try to find everywhere, you see. And there are so many people, seven billion people, and how to deal with all of them? And then all climate change is happening and pandemics are there. How can one little old thing then deal with life? Life is too big. But you are not that little thing.

And this I'm not saying as a matter of belief; I'm saying as a matter of true insight. And I'm speaking of your highest insight. I'm not saying something which only I have had an insight about and I want you to believe and follow me. I am showing you the way. And all of you had, in one way or the other, these insights which I'm talking about, where the truth of what you are is apparent—at least it seems to be apparent momentarily. And that much is itself. So I'm using this conversation as an opportunity to take a broad sword and chop off all problems. It's not just Kisha's struggle at her job and her feelings of fear and dread as a result of that. It is all apparent identities, their suffering, and their ideas about themselves. It is taking this broad sword.

So to claim to know conceptually is arrogance. Yes, you do not know more than a plant. Arrogance knows how to make food out of sunlight; does it have to think about it? What is that intelligence which it has? The same intelligence we have. Same intelligence. But the human condition is that it has lost sight of that intelligence—that raw, naked, open intelligence, universal intelligence—and we just started relying on primitive conceptual ideas and take that to be knowledge. What claims are you making? They're peaceless. Even the claim that they're baseless is peaceless. To suffer, you must be making a claim. And that's the only purpose. There is no happy ending in the story. The happy ending is without this one. The story is fueled by unlimited desires, unlimited arguments, unlimited desire, unlimited ignorance.

Tell me a true story. The truth is chosen. Everything in the realm of perception comes and goes and therefore is false. Then what is true? Can the truth be included in the story? 'I woke up this morning, I went to... and I came to Satsang.' Seemingly harmless to you. Work is in the realm of perception. This Satsang is in the realm of perception. So what is true? Do we need to understand that this is a glass to be able to drink from it? It's feeling a bit thirsty. A monkey came into my house maybe more than a year ago and he sat at the kitchen sink. He opened the water, he drank water from it. Do you think he thought, 'Oh, that is this, this is tap, open tap, drink water'? Still was able to do it. What intelligence makes that happen? I imagine that monkey had called that his job and said, 'See, my job is so tough. I have to enter people's houses and then I have to find their kitchens and do their things and then they may come after me with sticks.' Suppose you didn't know any of that, but some intelligence was just guiding that and making it happen. The same intelligence which makes the earth go around the sun apparently, and makes the sun produce light apparently, is the same intelligence which guides the...

Intelligence makes that happen. I imagine that monkey had called that his job and see, my job is so tough. I have to enter people's houses and then I have to find their kitchens and do their things, and then they may come after me with sticks. Suppose you didn't know any of that, but some intelligence was just guiding that and making it happen. The same intelligence which makes the earth go around the sun apparently, and makes the sun produce light apparently, is this is the same intelligence which guides the movements of these bodies. So we've got stuck in the primitive children's story of this dog, this dog giving babies to the mother, that kind of story, and we've taken that to be real. Why am I feeling this fear? Because of my work. Or why, why does this happen? It's all very, uh, grasping for conceptual knowledge, whereas the reality of causation itself, we can never confirm that something can happen because of something else. Then who must be a victim to that for the consciousness itself?

I was just speaking a lot of absurd things today. I should go back to sleep. What do we take to be true? Seekers are the worst of it because they are also known, so they're in conflict. They're just like, oh, but I can see this, this is perceivable, therefore not true. What are bothering you? Out of the realm of perception, has anything ever bothered you? But if you can take it to be not true, then how can you be bothered? So this internal order of concepts, you see, is what makes spiritual seekers suffer more than many others. Another one may say, for example, that okay, my job is terrible, I hate it, I don't like it at all, it's too much politics and all of this. But I'm not saying this is happening to you, I'm just, I'm just extrapolating. So I'm just saying that a spiritual seeker may say, oh, but I have to learn how to accept these people, but I'm not being open enough, I'm also believing all my thoughts about everyone, not noticing that all these are also thoughts.

So you have thoughts of one variety and then you have thoughts of both another variety, and then you're trying to reconcile both of those and trying to make it a coherent picture that you can then nicely put into your story and say, aha. There's another one who is not spiritual in this way, we'll just put in the narrative: I joined the job and it has been terrible, man, you know, I just go have a drink with friends or something like that. So that's it. That's how, uh, I'm making it more simplistic than it is, but we have a lot more conceptual ideas about what, what, what it should be for us now. Same thing for families, same thing for a relationship. So we will just fight with our partner. We're done. We will fight with a partner and fight with ourselves. We will fight with a partner and fight with ourselves without that aspect of us which is doing the fighting. I think you should be more accepting, you are not open enough here. You see that internal, right? And also the, so that is the pain of spiritual knowledge. But the, the, the good part is that if you can use it as a disinfectant, if you can use it as a cleaning agent, then it can clean up all of this.

Now let's hear something true. Let's hear something that can point to something true. Whose life is this? Whose presence is here? Who's aware of presence? What doesn't come and go? What isn't affected by states of waking, sleep, dream? What remains untouched, as untouched as an ocean? No matter how many storms come and go, all the waves may be in upheaval, the ocean is just the ocean itself. At the surface, all this play may happen. When is the Master not with you? Can your presence ever leave? What is the true basis for our stories? Can we really have a problem? So is God not here? That could be fun. Does an inheritance have a narrative about God and me, or just is? What is here? Can that which is here ever not be? So whatever you want, who do you want? If you want in reality, what does it mean to you? What is the meaning? How is it achieved? With what do you know that you are? What do we need to confirm your existence? So why do we need to make sense? What if all of us had a life of 100 years and on the last day of this hundred-year life, we realized that we are catering, we have been catering for 99.99? God, what is everything you have collected so carefully in your head but just pieces of garbage? Every idea that you take to be true is not even one ray of sunlight. Thank you. You are higher than anything that you can. How would you be if the universe feels like a speck of dust for you? What story would you have? All that is manifest goes on. Is waking up okay? Let's hear now. How is it now? But you are not good. Okay, how is it now?

I think God had to do to break that rambling. Audio is clear now. Are we far at least from where we started? What is the most compelling part now, compelling story now, and why is it? But what about me? Like my son sent me, knows, uh, there's a popular way of talking now where my son sent me a message saying, what is the worst workout day and why is it leg day? Legs, legs. What is the most compelling story now and why is it? What about me? That was just a joke. You can see what the, what is the messaging. There's still sensation is here now. It's like, um, yeah, a little bit in the chest. Good, good. Now meet that, meet that and tell me if your space is 100, how much space does this sensation take? Let me ask the even more difficult sounding question: if your space is a hundred, how much space does everything that is manifested, all that is manifest, this what we call the universe, all that is our experience, compared to the space of your being, how much space is the universe taking?

So you cannot measure it in universal space terms, and for some of you this question will be completely absurd, but some of you can achieve this. In the space of your being, how much space does that which is manifested now? Don't think your way to it. You cannot imagine your way to this answer. You just have to go to your inner inside. Okay, let's start with simpler. What is greater: the manifest universe or the space of your being? All of you agree. And now you'll agree because it's the right answer, but you feel like you feel like you have a sense of this in your heart. Yeah, even then there's no avoiding this in spirituality. Questions are loaded as if they are correct. So if that premise we take it for a moment to be true, that everything that is that we call the universe, this universe is nothing but a tiny speck, not even that for my truth, for my reality, then what is the meaning of a sensation experienced within time, within a small space in that universe? How large is that for us?

And if from this construct it is very, very tiny, then what is the way in which we can confirm that this is more true than our original idea about how great something is or how large something is? Is there a way to conclude? Is there a way to check for ourselves that this is so? Do you want me to repeat my thing? So I'm saying that if for a moment we just take the construct to be true, that the entire manifest universe is a tiny speck of dust for our reality, then all these tiny sensations within the body would be super, super small and meaningless, isn't it? But now that happens when we take the construct to be true, that is the original trends. So is there a way that we can confirm that it's not just a construct, but it is our intuitive insight that this is how it is, isn't it? That should be the question, isn't it? Because when I take that to be real, then all these fleeting sensations and perceptions really for my truth, they are meaningless. If the entire universe is just a fleeting firefly, then within that these tiny things should be meaningless.

Now you should say, okay, now agreed, but the base construct has to be taken to be true as a belief first for this thought experiment. So can, is there a way in which I can know this to be reality, isn't it? Only then can I conclude that actually all of this is just fleeting appearances. So when you ask yourself, am I aware now, what do you mean as yourself? That which you meet as yourself, what is the relationship that that can have with the manifest universe and how big is the manifest for that? That which is aware, what is its relationship with the manifest and how large is this manifesting play? How big is it in relation to yourself? And don't try to solve any of this conceptually because we cannot meet there. These are impossible questions for the mind. Stay with that self-knowledge of you yourself as awareness and then look upon anything that may appear in this creation. What does it mean?

So if you were a body-mind, then of course a strong seeming sensation could, could mean a lot of things. But if you were that in which this entire world is born, is experienced, then is there a problem for that one? What if, and I rarely suggest this but maybe we experiment with it for a few days, what if I ask you to take my word for it that your reality is that the manifest universe is just a speck of dust for you? Live as if that is true for a few days even if you don't see it. I never say this, it's the first time I'm saying it. It's almost like who said the other day, you have to fake it till you make it, right? Okay, so how would it be if you were just like, okay, he is my Master, I'm going to listen to what he's saying and this manifest universe is nothing but a speck of dust for me? Then is it more true that you are a speck of dust within the manifest, or is it more true that the manifest is a speck of dust for you? What seemed more true?

If it is that you are a speck of dust in the, in the manifest, raise your hands. Does that seem more true? You are a tiny little thing, one among trillions of organisms on this small planet. If you are that, if that seems more true, okay, thank you. Thank you for your honesty. And if it feels more true among the two that actually this manifest universe could be just a speck of dust for the reality that I am? No peer pressure, nothing, just something to clarify. And the undecideds, like a presidential poll, undecided in both. What is the way in which you can get to the right answer? In which way can we conclude what is true? I'm going to allow everyone to unmute for a few moments and see if that experiment can work at all. So all of you can, any of you can unmute whenever you feel like you want to answer something, and the rest of the time we'll mute you. And then if the experiment doesn't work, we'll mute everybody. But, but what is the way to, to conclude? Because this is a serious thing, no? This is a serious thing. It's a, it's a, it's a huge universe of a difference. Are you this tiny body-mind, or is the universe tiny for you? Both are at extreme levels. So how can we come to this answer? What tool do we have that we can conclude on some, on a question like this? Because it impacts everything. Do you hear me well?

Yes, my dear. Yes, yes. Um, I just noticed when I go to sleep, the entire universe is disappearing and I enter a huge dimension and I, I have a feeling of this dimension, yeah, even during the sleep and when I awake also because it is, it, I have this sense actually all the time with me even if I can forget it for completely. Yes, I can recall it and, and it is there. So that's what a kind of experiment, natural experiment and daily experiments I'm doing. And, and and then in this, in the, on this side I, I would answer the, the universe is a tiny speck in, in, in the space I am actually experiencing.

Yes, yes. Very good, very good. Thank you, thank you for that report. So now this brings us to this question: so with which eyes can we see the contrast between sleep state and waking state? With which eyes can we see the contrast between the sleep state and the waking state? And Atma is free to answer, everyone is free to answer. Anyone who feels like you have an answer can come. With which eyes can you, can you tell the difference between sleep state and waking state? Based on his beautiful report, he can see that as sleep is coming, the entire universe is speeding away. It means nothing to the reality of that means. But, but eyesight, perception, all of that is also resolving with the disc.

With which eyes can we see the contrast between the sleep state and the waking state? Atma is free to answer. Everyone is free to answer. Anyone who feels like you have an answer can come. With which eyes can you tell the difference between sleep state and waking state? Based on his beautiful report, he can see that as sleep is coming, the entire universe is speeding away. It means nothing to the reality of that. But eyesight, perception, all of that is also resolving with the discretion of the world. So what remains for us to be able to conclude?

Yes, I would say the eyes—the eyes that can see that or tell the difference—I would say it is absolute awareness, because it is the only way I can put it in words, but I'm not used to that. Yes, whenever I think, I reflect upon the fact that I can recall the space of sleep and see it is far bigger than my usual waking stage. I must say it must be something like—the only concept I can find is absolute.

That is good enough. That is good enough. So, it's just in a way a play of words, whether we say it is intuitive insight, which is just an aspect of this Self, you see, or we say it is just awareness itself, you see. Just the words that we use. But the intelligence of the universal and beyond universal, in this example, intelligence of this awareness itself. And the good news is what all of us have had this. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

Yes, yes, my dear. Yes. Okay, there's a sense that this which is here in the waking state, there's something there in the sleeping state as well. It's the same. You can't put a finger on it, but it's a continuation of something more basic which is here. Yeah, you can't understand it. You can't put words even on it. It's hard to describe it. Yes, but there's a sense even in the waking state that this, whatever this is, it continues even in the sleeping stage.

Yes, very good. Very good. Now let's continue this sort of group discussion. So now, if this is true, then that which appears in the waking state, what effect or can it affect in any way that which is continuing independent of what states there may be? What has to appear here in this manifest state or waking state that can affect that which is continuing even in sleep?

Here, this is so tricky because I see—I can see that—but the pull, somehow you get pulled into this person, personal 'I', body. And the one that is getting pulled is—is that the same one that is in the sleep state, or is it the one that woke up?

Is it the one that woke up? Yes, the one which got woke up gets involved. The one which is always is, is not—it doesn't get really. Yeah, yeah, it is not even the one that woke up at this point.

Yeah, the one who came after. Yeah, I think it's the symbolism which has been used for thousands of years about the ocean and the waves. Yes, this wave of this personal 'I' which rises up from this ocean bed in the morning and its stories and agenda of circumstances, physical manifestation with identification with this machine, with the shell. Yeah, and it goes on in the day, me and my life somehow.

So yeah, so the one that is there—for want of a better word—is there even in the sleep state. Let's return to the question: what can appear that can really affect or attack that one in some way?

Nothing.

And so did you become something else when you woke up?

Yeah, definitely.

Did you actually become something else? So you're not the one who was there in sleep still? So does that one transform itself? Does that one—okay, let's put it another way. Is that one missing right now, the one who is there in sleep state?

No, nothing, never. So I want to check with you what I'm saying. Yeah, okay, is what I see is the consciousness.

Okay, for a moment we'll give the mic to Zenapp. We'll just mute everyone.

Yes. Now there's a sensation like I'm at the presence of Master and there's some excitement here. So whatever awareness is always here, which we are—all that we cannot be the awareness. This is not optional.

Yeah, yeah. But you are speaking this not from knowledge, not from concept, as per your direct insight, isn't it?

Yes, this is what I want to say. My direct insight—what I see as direct insight is like the knowingness of awareness is the direct insight.

Yes, yeah. Let me help you, let me help everyone with this. So some may be also feeling like they don't have direct insight. So let me help you all. So, are you aware now? Yes. Don't think. You are. That's it. That's it. That's direct insight. Yes. So nobody doesn't have it. Okay, you want to do it again? Are you aware now? That's it. That was the direct insight, you see. The minute you get your mind involved, all messed up. Maybe all messed up. So, are you aware now? Okay. So don't—I know sometimes to put the same thing in words we may say, 'Okay, this is awareness of awareness' or like a 'knowingness of awareness itself' or some term like that. But sometimes behind these terms the intellect can start to... so that's why, before the click. Before the click.

So from there now, see—now see, I don't know what I—I don't remember what I was saying, but it's very awareness. I don't have to know anything. So just knowingness is there. Yeah, like it is like an inference.

I see. The knowingness—it depends on how we are using it. If you're just using it as a signboard to the direct insight like that, then it's not an intellectual inference. If you're using it to say, 'Aha, see, now even then I was aware of this, therefore this knowing must be always here, our knowingness is always there,' then it becomes an inferential thing. And this becomes a problem with all spiritual experiences. The mind will take on the spiritual experience and say, 'See, it was there then, it is here now, it is continuing to be there, you see, therefore something.' So that is all intellect mixed up with the direct insight, you see. And we feel like that is the only way we can help ourselves see. But direct insight—nothing to help for the Self. Nothing to help.

Yes, yes, very good. Everything that is true is always available. So we don't have to make pattern recognition sense-making, all of that, and say, 'Ah, this is my conclusion.' So that's what you're saying. There's nothing to help because everything that is true is ever available. Okay, just have to show up and trust the words to just point in the right way. Still, identification is happening during the life and that's it. When I say it's—I just see it.

And we'll come to that in a moment because we are at this very pristine point. We're at this pristine point where we're just talking about this discovery. They are saying, 'I am aware of my sleep state, I am aware of the waking state.' The 'I' that is there in sleep state is untouched by whatever may come up in the waking stage. So then the question is, are they then two of you? The one that gets affected and one that doesn't?

No, for awareness there's no discovery at all. For the consciousness, there's no two. Two is just in the here when we are speaking. There is as two seems like we are speaking.

Yes, yes. It's a great seeming, as Guruji would say. That's a great seeming. But actually it's Advaita, non-duality, no two. So can we find the one that is here in—that is there in the sleep state? Can we find it truly here in the waking state as well? Are you aware? If you go there to the mind and say, 'One that is sleeping here, one that is awake, how to find that one which is sleeping in waking state?' Mind is lost. No chance. No chance. You cannot infer your way to it. Okay, let me allow everyone to unmute themselves. So actually, this is what is always here. It doesn't need any support from anything. Nothing.

Yes, yeah. It's itself. It has—what happens in here all the time is—okay, let's go to the age of five when this body was small, such and such date at such a good time.

Let's pause. Let's pause that. This was that adventure for a moment. Let's explore a little bit of what I'm saying and then we see whether we want to go back there. So let's try this live. Are you aware now? Don't think. Don't think. Are you aware now? Right now, are you aware? So did you see something? Did you see something perceptually to confirm that?

No, no, no, no.

Same as in the sleep state, there is no perception. See, the same 'I' which is beyond all perception is here now. He is here now. And that is the only Self which you are. The only Self. Even when you are—okay, I'm introducing another concept. Even when you're being like the waking state, what wakes up? The sense 'I am' wakes up. A being wakes up. But it is the same 'I'. It is not another. It is not that 'I' was asleep and then you woke up. So 'I' was asleep and then 'I' woke up. It means the sense of being arose, you see. The sense of being arose. And now within the sense of being, all this play of light and sound, all this play of creation, all of that happens, you see. Now the 'I' which is now being, what can affect that 'I'?

Nothing. Nothing. Unless there was another 'I' which actually is born, which actually is born and is real and is part of the manifest state only, which can then be affected by the manifest itself.

Yes, yes.

I always—it came to me. It's in some way it's very simple because for my experiences, if you don't hold on to any thought, if you just don't hold on to any thought, it's absolutely obvious then. The limitlessness is absolutely—it's there just.

Yes, yes. If there's no thought, it's automatically there. Automatically no limits. Yes, it is apparent. It is so apparent. They're obvious.

Yes, Father. I—so I have to go to work. But this last bit of inquiry and who's there in the sleep state and the waking, and who's aware of the unconscious state and when I lost consciousness and consciousness—like, it's yeah. I just—it—yeah. Thank you.

Oh, so welcome. So welcome. Do an experiment like you don't go to work, okay? Don't work to go to work. Allow the scenery to change and if it becomes work, it's fine. Okay? Yes, the words appearing on the screen can change. It can become the road, it can become the school, it can become the classroom, whatever it has to become. You don't move. I love you so much.

I love you too. Love you too. Thank you for enabling this experiment. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

The only thing I would say is that—the only thing I would add is that if you're not speaking immediately and if you just mute yourself for that time and then something comes to speak then you can, otherwise it interferes with the audio. But maybe we do this for a few days. Let's see. Let's see how it goes. Who wants to jump in? Thank you, my love. Have a—I'm scared to say have a good day at work. Okay, yep.

I do. Yes. I'd like to jump in if possible. It's concerning this—if there is no thought at all, there's no thought. So this thing of limitlessness, it must have come after reasoning. I don't know how to—I don't know how to...

Yes, I did. It's just a word to point. It's just a word to point. If there is not—yeah, so if there's no thought right now, there's no thought. No thought, you see. Now somebody says, 'Now please pick one.' I put a gun to your head and say, 'Pick one. Was that limited or was it limitlessness?' And you have to pick one, you see. You will go with limitlessness. Yes, of course. These are just like words like that. They are not representing a truth in themselves. They're just pointing you beyond an existing idea that you may have. I don't know if that was audible.

No, I didn't do the last...

Words are not like any claim to the truth in themselves. It is just like this way where it seems like initially you have to provide some signboards, you see. So the signboard is: will you discover in yourself something limited or will you discover in yourself something limitless? It would appear that the better point is that you would discover in yourself something limitless because so far we've taken ourselves to be something.

You may have—I don't know if that was audible, no, I didn't do the last—are not like any claim to the truth in themselves. It is just like this way where it seems like initially you have to provide some signboards, you see. So the signboard is: you will discover in yourself something limited, or you will discover in yourself something limitless. It would appear that the better point is that you would discover in yourself something limitless because so far we've taken ourselves to be something limited. But not that it itself is a word that contains some truth, because everything that has an opposite is untrue. So, what I'm inviting everyone to come for the moment is to this insight about yourself as awareness. This insight, because I know that many of us seem to struggle with that simple discovery, and that is the only worthwhile discovery actually, and it's the simplest. So anyone who doesn't feel like they're meeting the question 'Am I aware now?' and coming to this insight, can you please come up?

Hello. Yes. Yes. Okay, there are a couple of sounds. Go to Muni first. Let's go to Muni, yeah.

Yes, Guruji. If I can be honest with this question, it's like not that I am confused, but I cannot say I am confused. Not—this is the first time I'm seeing that. And if it means what I think it means, it's not that.

Okay, now we can come to this. So what are you saying? If you can be honest about, yeah, just simply discovery like that seems to like the most important and—

Yes, yes. I like—I remember like—okay, maybe, maybe it's too fast for me.

So what you're saying is that when you ask yourself 'Are you aware now?' what you discover yourself to be, it's apparent or no?

I don't discover anything. When you asked me before, like, yes, I'm aware. And even like, yes, yes.

Are you aware?

Yes, I'm aware. Yeah, yes.

Okay. So this 'I' that is aware, how did you find it?

No, I didn't find—no, I didn't see it.

You must have found it. That's why you said yes. You could not have been lying to me.

No, no, I wouldn't want to. I'm just—

I'm just pushing. So, are you aware now?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you are aware. You are confirming that. But you say you did not find this 'you'. That is the time between the simple 'yes' of the innocent child and the 'but I did not find this me', you see? Something happens. What is that? What is that trying to locate perceptually or with some evidence, this 'me'? And because the mind cannot fathom that unperceivable one, it says 'but I didn't find anything'. But you already confirmed that you are aware. You didn't say Warjo is aware or Sebastian is aware; you said 'I am aware'. So which one is the lie? Both cannot be true. You cannot say 'I am aware'—that statement you can only make once you find yourself. If you don't find an 'I', how can you say it is aware or not, you see? So that has to be true, or the other one has to be true, that 'I did not find this'.

Could it be only that in both statements we are looking from different eyes? Not eyes, but 'I's?

Yes, yes, yes.

May I say something? I just feel it's what happened just with Muni and just now is we can witness the birth of the second 'I' just in between. Because the one who answers 'Yeah, I can't find, I can't find it'—this is just born.

Yes, yes, very good. Very good point. So the response 'Yes, I am aware' comes from a very simple place, simple place. The response 'But I did not find this I' comes from a place which is expecting a phenomenal experience to be able to confirm the 'I'. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

How is it that in the instant when the first question is asked, that consideration is not there?

Because I don't give any time. I don't give any time. You can say, is there anything—

What I think also, awareness can say 'I did not find anything' because, yeah, awareness doesn't find anything.

Oh yes, in a way, you know, we can say like that. But what we are saying is not finding itself; it is the consciousness sees the awareness and says 'Oh, I see'. Yes, yes, yes. Nothing happens. And even this talk is not happening for awareness, so it can say 'I did not find anything'. Yeah, yeah, yes. But again, then consciousness has to come into the picture to even say that. Yes, of course, it's talking at the moment, you see. That's a good point. But let's just return to the contrast between the two statements. The first statement is: 'Are you aware now?' 'Yes.' Is he undeniably aware? Then, if you give yourself a moment: 'I can't find this I that is aware.' But you already confirmed. Now, this will sound super absurd to the mind. Which eyes are you using to confirm that you are aware?

One can also say that there is just awareness, but there's no one being aware.

Yeah, but we can say a lot of things. The only difference is which eyes are we confirming that with, you see? If it is the eyes of the mind, the intellect, the inference, relying on phenomena, you see, then it is still in the realm of the stale sort of knowledge. But if it is like an insight from this intuitive intelligence which is unreliant on any of these traditional modes of knowledge, then from there you can just say anything. And that's why masters have said everything; there's nothing that's left unsaid. Because when you say 'Are you aware?' so naturally it comes, 'Yes, I'm aware'. Yes, don't even have to think, it's just 'I'm aware'. Yeah, but that question and the answer is a bit different from if the question was 'Are you in Greece right now?' because to answer that question you will still take a moment of intellectualizing, you see? Versus 'Are you aware now?' is very different. So even if I say 'Are you sitting right now?' you take a moment to see the state of the body and to be able to conclude. But 'Are you aware now?' is much more immediate. It's more immediate than immediate. You cannot take time over this question even if you try, you see? Because there's nothing you can meet phenomenally that you can grasp and say 'Ah, there it is, I can confirm it', you see? If anybody is doing that, then you're visualizing like a dark empty space or something, and that is not awareness. Find out who is aware even of the perception of dark empty space, you see? So know that there's a qualitative difference between the question 'Are you aware now?' or 'Are you sitting?' or 'Are you in Greece?' you see?

All these questions—actually it is before even any effort to know it.

Exactly. Even before the effort to know it. Yes, absolutely. That's very well put actually, that's very well put. Because if there's an effort to know it, that means that you are going in the wrong direction, you see? If you can point to some evidence and say 'Yes, yes, it's all dark and empty and spacious here, that is why I am aware', you see, it is all wrong. It is not that. It's even before the thought kicks in. It's before the thought, before the visual, before the intellect operating on the visual saying 'That must be it because it's all dark and empty and spaciousness', you see? Anyone else want to jump in also? And also Muni and others who are saying can come back into this if they like.

So yes, I got the answer.

Very good, very good. So Muni was saying—now can you see the difference in the two questions, my dear?

Yeah, yeah, I can. It was actually my mind is trying to comprehend.

Yes, very good. All of you are silent, you can also participate. They all want to sleep. So I want to just zero in on Muni for a moment because we are at this crucial point. So 'I am aware now', but 'Who am I? I can't find this I', you see? That is the conclusion, isn't it?

Right now there is no confusion. Like, I haven't—I don't know. And like when we were speaking, I tried to be as present, but now there's like, I don't know anything.

Yeah, yeah. Is confusion gone because you discarded the point of confusion or it got resolved? Usually it's discarding. But just to look together, we can just look. So what I was saying is that the first answer comes from a point of just pure seeing, you see? It's seeing. The second, that 'I can't find this I', is coming from an inference that I must find the 'I' in some sort of phenomenal shape, only then can I conclude on this reality, isn't it?

Yes. What can make anyone say 'I cannot find I'? Then the thought comes, 'I cannot find I'. But the basis for that thought is that I cannot find a representation or a phenomena which is 'I', isn't it? When they say 'I can't find a phone', they say 'I can't find something that looks like this', you see? The same way when you say 'I can't find I', you're saying 'I don't find anything that I can hang on to which I can call I'.

Yes. I'll come to this audience in a moment. I have a question here.

Yes. Yeah, actually what I am feeling for two, three months, I am actually in a loop in this only. When I ask 'Am I aware?' then just my mind jumping and trying to comprehend and I just cannot go beyond that. I cannot drop it. I just go and then get frustrated, then there is a lot of resistance, then I feel like I am actually putting my head into the wall and I give up. No, I cannot do it.

Yes, but do it with me now. Are you aware now? Now, now, now, now. Are you aware?

No, no, it does not happen. It happens in between. It happens in between for a second, then again not.

What happened? I'm not taking it personally, but it cannot happen, you see? It cannot not happen. So because it's not happening, actually you are aware. You are aware whether you like it or not. So like the 'not happening', we can explore that and say: was it the absence of a particular phenomena, or the presence that there was some phenomena which we are labeling as 'not happening'? What do we mean by 'not happening'? Okay, what should happen for it to have happened?

Actually I'm just visualizing the space and everything that happened.

What you visualize is just like visualizing this phenomenon. So you don't have to visualize some phenomena for you to confirm that you are aware. Are you aware of the perception of this hand or not?

Yeah, yes.

You see? So that 'you', how did you discover it?

I just know.

That's it. That's it. Your mind will never agree, but that's it. You just know, you see? And it is that 'just know' which is intuitive, which is intuitive intelligence. It takes no step. There is no movement required. There is no step, there is no thought, there is no perception needed.

Yeah, but my mind is trying to—

Don't invite your mind to this party. We are having a good time without it. Let the mind party on the ground.

Again I get involved in that mind, then I get frustrated and then cycle begins.

I'll give you a tip. I'll give you a tip. The mind can only operate in its playground. It cannot leave that playground, you see? You can decide to jump in into that playground or not jump into that playground. And when I say 'you', I'm talking about you as consciousness, not you as Puna, you see? So let the mind take its playground and jump as much as it wants in this playground. You don't join in that playground, okay? If you don't have to resolve anything in your mind, then you will have no trouble with any of it. Your job is not to convince the mind. Your job is to leave it alone.

Yeah, that is what I am doing actually. I'm convincing myself.

Don't convince anything. It doesn't have to be convinced. Do you have to convince yourself that you're sitting right now? Because it's apparent to you. But that you are aware is even more apparent than you are sitting.

May I? We are challenging ourselves to leave habits away for a while, yeah, in this moment. And just because what we are trying all the time since we are in satsang with you and before is to come in contact with each other. And it is the challenge now, which we can use this situation so beautifully because we can see: can we meet each other without the mind or not? Can we listen to each other in any situation of life without the mind or not? So if you can notice this immediacy of evidence of non-questioning, even only conversing, only meeting each other without inferring, without questioning, without expecting especially.

Satsang with you and before is to come in contact with each other. And the challenge now is which we can use this situation so beautifully because we can see: Can we meet each other without the mind or not? Can we listen to each other in any situation of life without the mind or not? So if you can notice this immediacy of evidence of non-questioning, even only conversing, only meeting each other without inferring, without questioning, without expecting—especially without expecting and projecting—then we can use this sleeping eye. Let's say we can even say his sleeping eye; it is not, it has never been sleeping. It is just the presence and the awareness. Okay, the daily presence is not the same like the night presence, but we have noticed with Muni just now, we can be awake and having like we are here, and we can be awake and looking if we are here. A question if we are here, and then already the second eye is jumping in. And this one will complicate the whole game because he has knowledge, he has experience, and he will find solutions for everything, and all these stuff. So thank you, very good. Thank you.

I would like to say something. Yes, me. And I just... it has been so many words that have to get worse for me. And like, I don't sometimes when there are words that actually... because the language, it's a problem also because sometimes like when you talk about a parent, I was like, what does it mean in Spanish? I don't know, I didn't understand. So I okay, let's go, well, whatever. I just want to say that if I ask myself, 'Am I aware?' and when I'm awake as a... okay, I can see the body and the world around and everything with my perception. I can be the one who's perceiving everything, or however you want to say. But there's a something that comes in mind as a question like saying, 'Okay, I can ask: Am I aware?' I like to say yes because am I aware even if it's only because I'm perceiving or even because I know I exist. But I cannot say, I cannot ask when I'm in a deep sleep, 'Am I aware?' I'm sleeping. So where I am? Or am I there? Who is that 'I'? It's the same 'I' that I'm aware now?

So is there a time where you are not awake? Is there a time where you're not awake?

Well, when I'm sleeping, I'm not awake, yes.

So how do you know that?

Just I know. I perceive, I go to the bed, I lie down, I fall asleep. I don't even perceive how falling asleep and then I perceive that...

You fell asleep? Sorry, how do you know that you fell asleep?

I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I'm missing this conscious and then it's blank, you know? But I don't know the last thing in memory many times before we go to sleep is like a blank space.

But is it a constant blank? You notice a blank which is there?

No, no, no, no. There's nobody who is not seeing anything when I'm in deep sleep, yes.

Is there a time where you're not awake? Is there a time when I'm not awake? Yes. Is that the time where you're sleeping? That is the time where you're sleeping. You're meaning that sleeping is being awake also?

No, no, I'm just saying that during the time that you are asleep, you are still there, I guess?

No, no, you don't have to guess, my dear. That's what I'm asking. If you only know yourself and you're awake, you could say, 'I'm always awake.' You see, I'm always over you will... but everybody will say that I am awake except for the time when I'm asleep. So you have to be there to be asleep also, isn't it? So you have to know that, otherwise you would say, 'I'm always awake.' No, I don't understand, sorry.

Revisit this conversation. It's actually very simple. Is there a time where you're not looking at a wall?

When I'm sleeping.

When you're not looking at a wall? When I'm sleeping? Another time when you're not looking at a wall? Even when you're awake, you may not be looking at a wall. You may be looking at a computer, you may be looking at a... not the world, the wall, wall. And the language is... no object of perception is constantly there, but you are there as the constant one who can say, 'I looked at the computer, I looked at the people in the room, I looked at the wall.' You see? In the same way, you have to be there to be able to say, 'I was awake, I am awake, but last night I went to sleep.' If you did not have the quote-unquote experience, you would not be able to confirm that there is something called sleep unless you were there to experience it. But how do you know that you were there? There's nothing phenomenal to experience. There's no shape, there's no size, there's no color. You see? Now, like I said, it is you that woke up. You say, 'I woke up.' You see? 'I was asleep, I woke up.' It is not like I was asleep but another one woke up. You see? It is that there's an aspect that wakes up which we call our being, 'I am.' You see? Wakes up. But the 'I' witnesses the absence and presence of this being, but it remains untouched by this. And all of us know this, you see? But we cannot understand this. So we must just see from which aspect we are trying to meet this. If you're trying to meet it mentally and intellectually, it will... but really to meet it is to meet it beyond the mind, to meet it in our heart. And it's like a simple conversation with the child, actually. 'Did you go to sleep last night?' 'Yes.' You see? 'What time did you wake up?' '7:00 AM.' You see? So who went to sleep? 'I did.' How do you know? 'I was there.' But not as something, not as something, but as no-thing itself. Of course, the child won't say all that last part; that is my paraphrasing. Okay, now we'll allow everyone to unmute if they want. Okay, anyone else in that point?

Yes, yes, Father. Yes. In this question, no, it's very clear, no? I'm aware, no? Yeah, I'm saying it's not diverse. So you say already know also, but if I want to ask the question, I have to have or must have a form or something because mind is just form. So mind needs a form to confirm anything, you see? At least it needs one. If not a physical form, at least it needs a conceptual form. It's not a physical form, but your intuition doesn't rely on that.

Doesn't mean that... yes, yes, yes, there is the seeming difficulty or something there is because there is a feeling of truthness in the form or something. It is an idea that we have taken to believe, which is 'seeing is believing.' You see? We've taken that thing must be represented phenomenally for it to be true. And yet in Advaita Vedanta, it is the first thing we learn: that if it is perceived, all perceptions come and go and therefore they are not true. You see? So in one stroke of Vedanta, the first principle, it takes away all our conditioning, conditioned knowledge, because everything that we believe as conditioned knowledge is based on perception, based on phenomena. Yes, Atma Gyan is not based on any phenomenal conclusion because you cannot meet yourself phenomenally to answer this question, isn't it?

Yes, I am aware of everything that is seem happening to the picture.

Everything doesn't come into the picture. Everything only comes in the picture when I give you time. You see? It is not that you are concluding or inferring that you are aware because you are aware of everything. There is no everything right now. Are you aware now?

No, no, yes, yes, yes. I mean, when you say 'Are you aware?' I hear this directly. I don't have to think it. Or I see the screen, I don't have to think of seeing.

Yes, yes, yes. But also the mind can come and say, 'I don't know.' Yeah, let the mind come and let it play in this playground. You are that in which that playground is there. You are that consciousness in which the playground of the mind can play in whichever way it wants. But you as consciousness don't have to take its limited representations of you to be true, isn't it? And if you keep saying, 'But mind comes, but mind comes,' we know mind comes. So leave mind, believe that we know it comes. Don't relationship with the mind. Don't try to change the quality of the mind. Don't try to change the quality of your thoughts. Leave that whole playground alone. Meet God in your heart. Meet God in your heart, and then it's God's problem whether the mind has whatever conditions or not.

Okay, Ananta, I don't know, maybe I want to go further, just just a bit further actually, not not far from where we are. I just want to look how it can be in the daily life because now we are just at the wake between the awakening and the sleeping. And what what is the next step? Because I was saying before, it is about our challenges, is about how can we meet each other and live together.

Wait for it. So suppose you did not buy into that construct. Suppose you did not buy into that construct and right now you are aware of the one that you are that is unaffected by sleep state or waking state. Now what needs that assistance of how to be in daily life? That one that is naturally awake here, is that short on some intelligence to be able to run this daily life? Is there something missing in that that it needs guidance on? That it actually doesn't, you see? It doesn't. It doesn't have a lag. That's why the most innocent child with the fewest concepts is as as natural in this day-to-day life as somebody who studied for 50 years. You see? Or actually much more, much more. So actually I would not say that it is to take it further because once we enter into that realm, we are bordering on the realm of 'how to be.' Bordering on the realm of how to be. And that 'how to be' is a question not really of being itself, because being is not confused about how to be. It is being a plant, it is being an insect, it is being a bird, it is being a building, a couch; it knows how to be, you see? But once it falls into a representation of itself which is limited, like 'little old me' or a person or the body-mind, then it is completely at sea as to how to be. There's no idea as to how to be, you see? So to try and resolve that question actually is to first pick up a more limiting representation about ourselves. So I won't really say that it is to go further. It is to leave it in the innocence of the discovery of what you are and to trust that that which awakens, awakens with the full intelligence of how to run this universe, which includes the functioning of this little body. You see? It's all included in that. It is to trust, is to be, is to be surrendered absolutely.

Thank you. It's exactly what I was feeling. I meant further just in the sense because we're used of thinking in time. But what your response was absolute. Well, thank you so much because we are very used to... because our problems come when we're thinking further.

Yes, yes, my dear. This is what is it totally called meeting the Master in the heart somehow. Yes, can you speak more, my dear, so we can zero in on where you are? Ah, there you are. No, something wrong with your audio today.

Father, may I come?

Yes, yes, everybody can whenever you feel you can jump in, okay.

So I feel like I need some clarification on some level. I'm not right in the beginning because...

Your mind will scream for clarification. It is completely confused after the kind of satsang we've had, you see? It's like a scrambled mash right now, you see, like potatoes that have been mashed up. So don't try to get clarification there at all. Yeah, the clarification I can provide at another level.

Then please provide clarification on another level. Is there another level which can be confused?

Yes. So it's like there is no bridge between the mind and where you are pointing to, and something tries to find a bridge between them like...

Don't try to resolve problems which are not there. No such problem. Nobody needs to create a bridge between the mind and the heart. Whatever God is giving us is enough. No bridge building is required on top of that. May I? This is very important. This is very...

Is there another level which can be confused? Yes. So it's like there is no bridge between the mind and where you are pointing to, and something tries to find a bridge between them like...

Don't try to resolve problems which are not there, no. Such problem—nobody needs to create a bridge between the mind and the heart. Whatever God is giving us is enough. No bridge building is required on top of that. This is very important. This is very important, okay? And what will happen many times is that after a satsang like this, the mind is just so unclear, it's confused. I feel like, 'Why did I even come to satsang? He left me more confused than when I started.' You see, all this can happen. But actually, it is in service to what we are pointing to that you're feeling a lack of clarity in your head.

So when you feel that lack of clarity in your head, see if there's another place where there is clarity, where there is no confusion. Just like if a sign is all messed up, you see, instead of trying to repair the sign—because you don't know what it is pointing to anyway—see if there's another sign. Sorry, so if you're going to a particular destination and one sign is all messed up, you see, somebody has made graffiti on top of it, they've messed it up, it's not clear. So instead of trying to clean it up, quickly look and see if there's another sign which is pointing you very clearly to your destination without having to refer to the first sign.

Yes, and yeah, this is what's happening to me. And so, if other people just come up and I'm distracted, I cannot see you also. Okay, yeah, thank you. May you please speak further for me to see you? Yes, yes, right here. Right, so this is what's happening, Father, recently. Like, there is too much restlessness in this body, but it's just so obvious that it has nothing to do with me. Sorry, give it to it now. Are you still referring to the wrong signboard to convey to me what is happening to you?

Okay, yeah. So look at the right one. Or how to look at the right one? Don't look at the wrong one; that is enough. All that is needed to go to the truth is to let go of the false. How to refer to the right intelligence is to stop looking at the wrong intelligence. How to find the truth is to stop looking at ignorance. And what problem remains? And why is it? What about me?

Thank you. Yes, something has hit here for the first time. It's between—I'm not sure, let's try to put that in words. Between the question you always ask is, 'Are you aware?' right? But let me try to explain this. Anything that is witnessable, meaning aware of it, is not, is not, is not. So you're always possible to have your—impossible to see you or not? If it's not I, no, because I haven't got enough network and it's very—and the connection is poor, I'm sorry. But I want to say then the one thing that if the question leads to the process as you are starting the explanation, then that is not the intent of the question. Now the question that is here is between awareness and being, something like... or is it that 'I am' is the sense of being, and beyond that it's not the sense, it's just being? Is that it? Awareness means 'is it' and being is the same, but the sense of being is the sense 'I am-ness'?

It is that which wakes up in the morning. I am. See, I wake up. 'I am' that wakes up, you see. The 'I' is the unchanging awareness, the witnessing of even the sense of beingness, you see. So before 'I am' is the pure 'I', untouched even by the sense of beingness. But it's the same, yes. But life, existence—I know these are all concepts—but awareness is awareness. I think there's some lag in the connection. Is there a quality difference that you feel between the two questions: 'Can I stop being?' and 'Am I aware now?'

No, it is the same.

Yes, and that is fine. That is fine, true. That is fine because ultimately, with this speaking here, it is just the one Self. Now whether you want to make a qualitative distinction of the manifest aspect, the primordial vibration appearing, or you don't want to make a distinction between that and the unmanifest—in fact, it may be even more auspicious to not make that distinction. So it's fine. Sometimes there's a teaching tool to ask a question like, 'Who's aware even of your being or of your presence?' But sometimes that question just doesn't resonate, and then that is fine too. That's okay.

But it does, I think that's the thing that has hit at the moment. If you say even if the sense of being is witnessable, then it still makes one level purer. I don't know how to say. So when this is not even raised, it's not even experienced, but it either is, or suddenly if there is awareness of it, it's like it's stepping into it. It creates—it's not duality, but it's 180, let's say 180 instead of zero. How can I say?

Okay, so the aspect of yourselves where you're meeting this right now, just leave that aspect. And if some words come from a different place, just get those. And I'm with you in this; I'm with you from a different place. If something comes from a different place, not the current aspect which is based on inference and understanding. Now let's see.

Well, here what comes... now anything that is observed outside in the 3D sensorial world or inside in dream and dream and dream is, yes, not this place, not this place, not this place. But then nothing.

Let that place operate in whatever it wants to say. Now allow that to just come and go, all the proposals from there. Now don't rush to say 'nothing'. Allow to see if something wants to just naturally unfold from another place.

What rises now is it was all coming from trying to understand. Yeah, again, it cannot be understood and can never be. So stay in this place. And what I mean by stay in this place is don't go for the playground of the conceptual understanding. Yes, yes, it's been a play lately. It's like fighting, it's like pushing hard to... yeah, something resisting not knowing anything. Don't even understand what it has been. I can see you now. Without you, now I see. Yes, yes, oh yes. At your feet.

Eat the falafel, you haven't eaten it all here. I had an urge and I was keeping it. Maybe now it's already in the mind, but like, not that we are trying, but how to speak and communicate without using your mind? That this was, and then we are silent in a way. Everything that you are speaking, are you thinking about first?

No, I wasn't. Awesome, that's it. It's too simple. If you're not referring to your mind, everything—even when you are referring to the mind—all... so but there is a qualitative distinction between the representations which are so limited from the mind, you see, which doesn't really impact anything in reality. But it seems like a human life filled with these false representations seems to be a magnet to suffering, and empty of these false representations seems to be free from suffering, you see.

And that is why we label this emptiness the coming to the heart when you're absent of these false representations. And absent of these false representations, this mouth can move, the hands can move, feet can move. You don't have to make a special strategy as to how to not speak from the mind, no. We don't have to cancel the Holy Spirit; actually, the Holy Spirit is always here, you see. We just have to stop channeling the mind.

Yeah, but I recognized that always it was like fear here, like what to say, that I had to think about it first. And now it's the first time like that I can speak just like directly.

And this is very good. And this trust will start to develop more and more and more and more, you see. And that is where the sharing of truth can happen because you just come into a space and start sharing without referring to the mind. And initially it can seem a bit scary—what will people think, what is that thing, you know, all of these things. But I can tell you from ten years of sharing in this way at least, that this intelligence knows how to use this mouth completely fine, knows how to use these... it's really beautiful.

It's so off, like, I don't know, like things are like the whole world I was carrying on my back is off now. And it very, very... hey, thank you. It works, it works, thank you.

That's the new marketing slogan. Good, good. Okay, shall we call it a night? It's been a good format. Maybe for a few weeks we try like this, it's more lively. Remember that here we have some time for one bhajan, something traditional or something more contemporary or fun. You notice that I play various types of spiritual music from India just to give you a taste of the vast culture of spirituality that we have here. But what do you want? Some fun one, some peppy thing, or some traditional? Fun, peppy? I heard, I saw some nodding with the fun. I'll play this one in a while.

There you go. Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. All my blessings to Anna; it's her 18th birthday today. Full love and full blessings to all of you.