Your Original State Is Higher Than the Highest, and Everything Else Is Just a Mask – 8 October 2021

I cannot see it.

So actually, because it is so beyond this manifest play, it is so beyond this play of light and sound, that even to say that the universe is a speck of dust actually is not true. It is just to shake our notion about how large it is and how we are an object contained. Okay, so actually to put yourself in any sort of size or dimension is impossible because we are beyond all dimensions. So when the masters feel that even the universe is nothing but a speck of dust for me, actually it is just something that is so beyond our imagination that it allows us to let go of our deeply held beliefs that I am an object in this universe. And then when we are shaken out of these deeply held beliefs, we come to a deeper recognition in our heart, which is that actually not even a speck of dust this universe is for what I truly am, because it is not at the same level of comparison at all to look for ourselves in this kind of dimension.

It seems like the sound is coming from there, let's just try that. So, it's like the Vedantic approach is like this: they will tell you in the scriptures that you take yourself to be just this body with two hands and two feet; actually, you have millions of hands and feet. That is what you are in reality. Then once you've shaken that old belief system of ourselves just being this lump of food, then we get shaken out of that and we may start visualizing ourselves to be some very large entity or something like that. And then it is said: how can you have hands and legs? You can't have hands and legs; you're so beyond all manifest. So that's the idea: to shake us out of deeply held notions into a branch that we can hold on to provisionally, and then even the branch is chopped away. So actually, we are left with no real grasping or possibility to hold on to anything.

So how to paint a picture of ourselves then? How to paint a picture of ourselves?

I don't know. I cannot paint anything. And this is the good news: that without the possibility of this painting or this sort of reference mold, we are not lost, we are actually found. That is the beauty of this.

The world tells us, points tells us that the representation still... you know, like this week I had such moments, beautiful moments, but I'm sorry... idea one and one... sorry, yes. But in spite of all this, like strong beautiful revelations inside, somehow I feel that there's still some part of me in me that which goes, you know, how to see the mind or with some all the habits and which feels boring—not boring, but finds those old things interesting. Some just instead of listening to satsang, just picking up and reading some book, like not a spiritual book, or watching TV, or just... I understand that this is such a waste of time, or engaging in some, you know, mind stuff. Sometimes this is... I really would like to get rid of this, but somehow I'm not able to do this fully.

So no activity in itself is a problem, okay? And I want to tell all of you this: that it's not the content of the perception. It doesn't matter whether in front of you there is a TV, or whether there is a book, or whether there is anything else. It doesn't really matter. It is only when we forget what we really are, or we will put it even better than that: if we take ourselves to be that which we are not, that is the only troublesome aspect, you see. So the content of the activity is not what is being pointed at here. I am not suggesting to anyone any sort of life. If you feel like a sadhu life is better for you, then do that. If you feel like the life of a householder is better for you, do that. If you feel like a life of full-on work and just busy with whatever else is better for you, do that. But none of that compels us to take ourselves to be the false, you see. No content can appear in front of you, you see, which already carries the misidentification. You as consciousness have to take that content and use that to misidentify, you see. You have to believe your ideas about what you are as a result of what content is showing up to misidentify.

But it seems that this belief happens, that I'm, you know, just a person, just this small one, like mother of my children, housewife and so on. And yes...

So if you are like this mobile phone, no, then anything can happen to you. Anything can happen, no, because you're being controlled by a greater force. So things can happen. So if you were just little old Ordon, or you were just like whatever body—whatever the body is called—then in this vast universe anything can happen to you, you see. But when you say it just happens, are you referring to yourself as consciousness? Because nothing just happens to consciousness. First you have to identify as some object for which something can happen to. So see, come to the recognition of your being and see if ever anything has just happened to the being. Can some thought come which is so strong that our being is forced? 'Ah, this thought is too big for me,' you know? So then the thought would be God, isn't it? If a thought could come which was stronger than consciousness, that consciousness is forced to believe that to be true about itself, then thought should be taken as God, you see.

So already in the subtext of what you're saying is a hidden belief that, 'I am... yes, yes, consciousness is here, but at the end of the day, you know, really all this just happens to me,' you know? But in that representation of 'me', what is it that you're taking yourself to be? And is that natural to your existence right now? Is your being already limited in this moment? Is your being limited? Identify its boundary. See if you can find a limitation to your beingness and see if anything can just happen to it. Like a thought can come along and it is so compelling that the being itself is now shaken up and says, 'Ah, yes.' Or is it that the being is playing with that identification still, you see, but not held hostage to it? What can appear in this play of appearances which is too strong for the being to handle, including the thoughts? With me? And all of you can jump in, I have allowed you to unmute.

So important points. Many, many for many years I've heard this, that yes, yes, it is only after I believe in a notion about myself which presents a picture of myself being limited do I get into this. But that belief in the notion just happens to me. Who told me? What can I do?

But then this would not be consciousness speaking with consciousness. Then this would be consciousness speaking to poor old me. But that is not how it is. If there was a step needed for you to become consciousness, then whatever I'm saying is all rubbish. If naturally what is here now is not full-on God, then just forget about satsang and everything that is being said. I think you take away the godliness of God in this very moment.

Yeah, than consciousness, because what you're saying is that it could constantly abide in the fact that you're consciousness then, and then just put the... so reality in this moment is not really different. I know what you're saying, yeah.

So it's like, my dear, I'm just going to mute you for a moment because still that sound is coming. So it is just, in a way, we have to call it habit. We have to call it habit to go to a representation. And it is a habit that we learned under great protest. Maybe as children we were told that we must, we must take ourselves to be this body, we must take ourselves to be this limited entity, you see. We didn't want to learn all of that, you see, but you're forced because we were told that this is how you can live a productive life, you can live an effective life. And that is fine at that stage, you see. Now it is like the tree has to grow up and become strong before it can be cut, you see. So if it is just too flexible, then it's not too easy to cut anyway. So it develops first in that way and then it comes to a point where it can be chopped.

So this habit, which is a learned habit, is a nurtured habit that consciousness itself has been playing with when we come to satsang, you see. And that is why usually it takes a few satsangs before we defrost out of that conditioned habit that the thought is proposing this notion to me, you see. It's proposing that I am an individual, I'm the separate one, and the desire... so it proposes these notions about myself and we take them to be true out of habit. But it is not as if once we decide that I'm going to remain with my true insight, then consciousness can be forced by these projections, because they are its own projections. It's part of its own, its own play, you see. So nothing that it is projecting can be stronger than the light itself. Just in the same way like the movie projector cannot project anything on the screen of the movie which can affect the actual projector itself or the light which is being projected, you see.

So I'm fully aware that the habit can seem very compulsive, but to take it for granted that, 'Oh, and now we are stuck like that,' you see, is just reinforcing that habit because that is what your mind is proposing to you even right now, you see. So even right now it will say, 'You know, buddy, easier said than done. Maybe easy for you to see, but...' But I'm pointing out to you that actually if you just look at yourself as pure beingness right now—and I've given you the tools to see that—then observe without any sort of rush and see what thought has to come to compel you into that identification. See what thought has to come that pulls you in so deeply that you have to identify with it. And once you identify those, actually you will be met with your greatest attachments, and that itself is a great contemplation in itself, you see. Because not every thought then will compel you once you're just okay, let it all come, let me see what gets me. If you try this for two minutes, just let it all come, then let me see what gets to me in my belief.

Yes, something about you, the one that wants to get it. The one that wants to get it, get what is said.

Okay, okay. So what identity is that who wants to get it? What aspect of your ego wants to get it? It's a spiritual seeker. There's a seeker identity which wants that completion and is saying, 'Ah, now listen, listen, get it now, get it,' you see? Which itself is an invitation to not get it, you see the trick? No? That it's saying, 'Now you better listen carefully because this is it, don't miss it this time,' is causing you to miss it this time, you mean? So this is the tricky nature of this. Your being was just chilling, no? Just being being itself, okay? And then the notion came, 'Okay, you better find a way to stay like this because this is so good,' and then have you... you've taken on that thing. So what I'm saying is that you'll discover your greatest attachments in this way. So we are attached to spiritual finality or spiritual seeking or spiritual enlightenment or coming to the resting, final resting place, whatever we may want to call it, you see. So good, so you notice that. Now let's try again. Allow everything to come in. Don't have to meditate, nothing, just chilling. Thoughts are coming, thoughts are going, you're just being.

Because this is so good, and then you've taken on that thing. So what I'm saying is that you'll discover your greatest attachments in this way. So we are attached to spiritual finality or spiritual seeking or spiritual enlightenment or coming to the resting, final resting place—whatever we may want to call it, you see. So, so good. So you notice that. Now let's try again. Allow everything to come in. Don't have to meditate, nothing. Just chilling. Thoughts are coming, thoughts are going. You're just being. You're just conscious. Now I'm going to allow you all to unmute. Tell me what gets you and what would you like to see.

A good point, yeah. Yeah, and if I get that acknowledgement from me, from the rest of the sangha, then what would you be like? Very smart, very bright, really listening, getting it, you see. Not together, yeah, like sorted, sorted.

But is that greater than consciousness? Suppose everybody in the world took care, super sorted. Is that greater than God? Is that greater than just Atma, just being? No. Because this is the great thing about this: your original state is higher than the highest, and everything else is just a mask. Everything else is just a persona. It's just a facade. But our habit—and this is called vasanas, conditioning—is to compel us to put on a mask because we feel like that is the only way to move forward, make some progress. But in the idea of progress, we build a notion of problem: if something is wrong or something can be resolved or something has to get better. And in that, we are missing the beauty of what already is.

So even if you decide now that 'I'm just going to be,' that's already a position, you see. So the emptiness of the nakedness that I'm talking about is empty of even that position. We feel like we need a conclusion to come to rest. Actually, it is your own conclusions which are making you suffer. And often I have spoken about this, but today's conclusion is tomorrow's confusion. So you may say, 'I figured this out. This is what all of this is about. I am going to just be.' And anybody who decides to just be, have you ever been able to do it? 'I am going to just be.' But what you're taking yourself in that construct of just being is still little old me. Does God have to decide to just be? Does Atma? So already we take the mask to be real and then say, 'Okay.' You see, already the idea is that 'I'm far from home, how can I get there? I can get there by just being or by just living in the moment or just being open and empty or not believing my next thought,' whatever spiritual guidance you've heard, you see.

But really at the core of it all is this idea that you are lost and you have to be found. Now what I'm proposing to all of you is that just here and now, you are it, you see. Unless you put yourself in an intellectual construct, including the concept of 'you are it,' that is disappointing. It is not a truth with me. Yes, it can be, it can be a bit strange for a person. But you look a bit troubled, man, because it's a point of high accountability if I say I'm divine. Yes, I have zero doubt about it, zero doubt. And I don't care what you say about it actually, or whether you believe it or not, because it has nothing to do with belief. It is just what you are, you see. This is just what you are. But it is not meant to pressurize you because you don't have—it is not about any sort of like, 'Now I have to be divine.' Nothing. It's just what you are.

So in fact, it is meant to free, not meant to expect a larger-than-life sort of impression or something to come out of the functioning of the body-mind. You look at the ones on the walls and then the day to realize their day-to-day life, they don't have to have an image to maintain and say, 'Ah, now I am divine, I have to present myself in a divine view.' How would we do that? What can this little mouth say? What can these little hands say, these feet say? Do that, that can be divine? Then we get trapped in the notion of all this kind of spiritual experiences and miracles and all of that. They're missing the miracle of what is. In having to look for divinity in aspects of this creation, then it makes us feel like we need to find the supernatural, mystical sort of experiences and things like that.

But in that, are you seeing the beauty of just this one ray of light? One ray of light from that tube light. It's not even an expensive tube light, just a regular tube light. One ray of light. Have we imagined the beauty of it? Can we fathom how we'll feel it? One sound, even of the traffic from the street, if you don't put it in the box of our mind, have we really tasted it? Just tasted it fully? There's so much joy, there's so much beauty in every moment of this. But if we're living in our narrative, what happens then? We're living as if we are living in the black and white photocopy version of this one here. 'I have come to satsang, this man is saying some things, now I better listen carefully and then I may understand and I may go out better, better than what I started.' That's the narrative which the mind wants to present.

Or if the mind is really bored: 'What is happening? Why do I come? I decide every time this is the last time I come to you.' Yeah. Or even the other way, you can say, 'Oh, so many years I haven't come, I should have come, you see, but I fell for my mind tricks.' You see, it could even be saying that. Now all those narratives are fine, but they're just fairy tales, just primitive storybooks, you see. Because when you take yourself to be that, are you capturing, are you assimilating the beauty of what is in front of you right now? What is perceptually in the vastness of your being? How much there is in your being! There's this worldly play, there's sensations, there's being itself, see, pure presence. And then beyond all of that is that pure awareness which is aware of all of this in this moment. But where are we living?

See, that is the contrast that will give you small thoughts, just any thoughts. Because a thought which can decipher reality to its full extent does not exist, you see. By definition, any definition is limiting. It is able to define because it limits the outer constraints, like the parameters. But you are the unlimited one.

I was just thinking...

Yeah, that's the trouble. But you know what came to... I won't say. Isn't that possible only for one who has already had a darshan? Okay, it's possible for you. Yes, let's forget it. See, there are many thoughts, some thoughts that are coming, but none of them are getting that God is ego. Yes, those if you can identify, it will save you a lot of trouble because these pedestal-type thoughts which affirm your spiritual progress are just the drop of the spiritual. There's no good garbage and bad garbage, which is all garbage. 99% of what you think is as if we are left helpless. For those who are not used to satsang, it can just be like, 'But without that, I have no reference to what I am. What am I supposed to do? You see, what is my next action going to be?' All of that seems lost. But that loss is actually very auspicious because you meet the divinity, the divine intelligence which is running all of this life.

I mean all of this life. This guy, this one. How do we decide which leaf to grow next? Is his life going in the right direction? Don't worry that it sounds absurd. Is the life of this plant going in the right direction? So difficult. Is the life of the plant going in the right direction? Not applicable, exactly. You know, because whichever direction it goes in is the right direction, if you have to frame it in the right and wrong, you see. So who is determining that? How many thoughts will it have to think? 'I will grow my next leaf like this, to these many centimeters, and after that will be too much, but this will make me happy and comfortable.' It has to think like that? How is it able to convert light into food? How many thoughts? Yes, yes. But how many thoughts needed for that photosynthesis to happen?

We give so much value to thought, but what are the processes happening even in this body at this point without thinking? How many processes are? And so suppose now you could pick between whatever you can do with thought versus what is happening without thought, what would you pick? No, no, no. If you could pick, you say, 'Okay, now I have to go to Mumbai, I have to do this, I have to do that,' you see, versus all the activity and processes which are happening in this body apparently without having to think about them. See, which would you pick? The latter, no? Because without that, heart will stop beating, blood will stop pumping, that digestion will stop happening. All that will be big trouble if it stops, isn't it? So in any case, 99.99% is happening without thinking, you see. Now the .01% whatever we think is happening because of thought, just evaluate if that is true. Evaluate whether that is true. You will see that it's wrong, you see.

Many times we think that if everything that we thought about 20 years ago actually happened, then it would be so disastrous here. That's a good one. God is not that unkind. Guru, God is not that unkind, and he doesn't make every one of your desires come true. All with me? I'm liking this format, a bit more interactivity. Let me see what... anybody with your video on, I can just call on you. Okay, so if you don't want to be called on, at least for now, just put your video off. See who haven't I spoken to in a bit. Let me hear from... I haven't met Laura, have I met Laura before like this? Let's see if she has something to say.

My first month, first time.

Yes, you're very welcome. Very welcome. How is it now? Where are you with me now in terms of what is being said?

Very much. Are you completely lost or not? No, no, no. Very much just here with you.

Yes, tell me what you are stuck with, if at all anything.

You know, what I've been noticing most recently is there's making this into 'other' and playing like a spiritual object, guru game, spiritual path game. Even though it's seen that what's been found has already been found, then something turns it into an object outside and tries to like grasp onto it and make it into a new path and gets all... and when what's been seen is just this, and then something keeps trying to like turn it into something, like turn it into an object. Am I being clear?

Yes, yes, it's very clear. Thank you. I see that you're from that name, you're from the USA, it's written in your Zoom profile. So there's an American comedian called Newhart, and I don't know if you've seen this video, you know where he has a video on YouTube, you can search for it: Newhart, 'Stop It.' You see, so his advice—I'm gonna spoil it for you, sorry—but his advice, he just says, 'Stop it.' You know, it's very irritating to hear that advice because I can't just stop it. What do you mean by stop it? So he said, 'This is the trouble, just stop it.' 'I am taking what appears in front of me to be another.' You see, that is not good news. Stop it. Stop. And you say, 'But it just happens, how can I just stop it?' You see, but if you believe that it just happens, you're taking yourself to be what God cannot have this complaint. 'It just happens,' no. So already in that narrative, you're already taking yourself to be something that you are not, isn't it?

Yes.

So in this moment, don't take anything appearing in front of you to be another. And I'll tell you something which is: don't take what I'm going to say next to make yourself guilty in any way. It is not meant to inspire guilt of any sort. But what I just want to say is that if you did not desire anything from this world, you see, then anything in the world could not compel you into any sort of subject. If you did not have an expectation about how this world should be, then a thought cannot come and compel you. It's because you have a construct. We all may have a construct about what my life should be, what my spiritual progress should be, how free should I be, you see. If the seeker identity is now the number one, numero uno identity, then...

What I just want to say is that if you did not desire anything from this world, you see, then anything in the world could not compel you into any sort of subject. If you did not have an expectation about how this world should be, then a thought cannot come and compel you. It's because you have a construct. We all may have a construct about what my life should be, what my spiritual progress should be, how free should I be, you see. If the seeker identity is now the number one, numero uno identity, then the thoughts about that will be compelling. If a parent identity is the number one identity, even thoughts about that will be compelling, you see.

But if we did not want anything from this world—and that is, I'm not talking about any sort of renunciation, because that is also a very strong position that I take myself to be this body-mind and I have to renounce the world. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that whatever all this glimmering, shining light and sound appearing in front of me, I trust that which is doing all of this to present the next frame in the most beautiful way because it is the best director of this movie. Then I don't have to manage it and say, 'Okay, now this should not come, only this should come,' you see. 'My freedom should be like this, my children should be like this, my husband should be like this.' All of this idea. If we didn't have these desires, then tell me what could get you?

And that's what I meant when I said if we start with the intent in our heart to be open and empty, and then you notice what gets you, you will notice your desires and attachments. And that's helpful. Again, not meant to make you feel guilty, but just shine the light of your consciousness on it. The light of your being on it is not meant so that you can consume more thoughts about it and say, 'Oh, I'm still so spiritually egotistical, I have so much spiritual desire.' It is not meant for that. It is meant to see: who should be free by now? Who should not be behaving like this by now after having come to satsang for whatever period of time? This is a common one, isn't it? 'I've been with Guruji for so long, I've been listening to so much YouTube, all of this, but by now I should be through this.' Whose story is that?

It's true. Something hides in the—I don't want to call it a victim exactly, but in the 'I don't know how I got lost' feeling, you know? That maybe not taking full responsibility, yeah, from the vigilance required to...

Well, even that is to go a bit far, and it's okay professionally, but even that is like painting paths, you know, that I have to then now walk on this path. If the best food in the world was always available every moment to us, you see, what excuse could we have for complaining of being hungry? Does it require vigilance, or is all that is needed just to snap out of it? Not create a five-year plan, not create a roadmap: 'Okay, this is where I start, now my way back home is done and I'm going to be truly dedicated to that and get to it.'

But what is here right now? What can prevent you from clicking your finger? Before the click, you are free. Before the click, God is here. In whose light are you experiencing the world right now? In whose light are you experiencing the world right now? Whose light? Don't look away. Whose light are you experiencing the world?

Yes. What is that? Is that individual? No.

Investigate further. Go deeper. Dive into that light. See whether it has a boundary.

Light... the light that is getting to me is the perceptual light.

In whose light are the perceptions appearing? Whose light are the perceptions appearing? Start with that. It's very good that you are aware. I've pointed you to this: that the truth of what you are is not possible to witness in a perceptual light. Very good. Now, but I am asking you that even the ability to have perception is because of His light, yes? And which light is that? Is it something that it's just naturally... how big is it? How small is it? Where is it? Always there? Is it separate from you? Can you see?

Very good, very good. So when we say 'mine,' are we speaking of it as possessive, like 'this phone is mine'? See, this phone is mine. Is it like that? Is the mind like that?

No distance. No distance. It's not a relationship. It is what I am. Self-illuminating. And in the light of that, all of this worldly play also appears. Have you ever had an experience when you were not there?

How come? Yeah, very good. It sounds absurd. It sounds absurd. What it is... how can I have an experience? I have to be there. But which 'I' has to be there? And the only thing that can never be switched off and you are the only thing that is of... like sometimes this contemplation happens: what is arising and therefore what is not always?

Yeah, there's no answer to that. What is not arising is here. See the question and the answer is that. Which level of our existence? And how is it that in the human condition we become so dependent on the intellect that we feel like our life is a huge mess if we don't have all the right answers, or life is very good if I have these seeming elusive moments where we feel like 'I got all my answers'? Why does life have to be so tiny that it depends on these few concepts?

And further, it also feels like rather than the small mind trying to come back to its source, it feels as though the bigger mind or consciousness is actually sucking a part of it back in.

Yeah, just about time to, yes. Whether you call it a longing to come back home or whether you call it a pull towards self-realization or the freedom, it exerts a certain... there's almost like an alarm clock, like we're done with this game, just want to wake up now. Wake up. Okay, now Laura, how are we?

Very happy. It's such a helpful... just to stop. Just stop. Stop. Just stop the narrative. Stop the narrative and don't even make that part of the narrative. You want to spend this entire life like so many others, like so many other lifetimes that we may have had, just living in the story of our life? Or just for a change, experiencing this great life in front of us? Does the story keep changing? The same old stuff.

Okay, forget it. Forget. Only laughter can come. Forget nothing now. Just love, devotion. Forget it. So holy love and... yeah, either in Sanskrit or English, just don't bother with it. Just don't bother. You also just also watch that. Don't bother. Stop taking yourself to be something. Stop any narrative. Like, let the narrative flow, but you don't take it to be real. What is a belief? What is the ability to give a sentence in a story the degree of truth, isn't it? Isn't that a belief? 'I'm a pink-haired watermelon.' If that thought crosses your mind, not true, you see.

But 'I have to find freedom.' No, both are as absurd. Okay, now this may sound absurd, but both are as absurd. So we give two values: zero to the first one, but we give truth value one to the second one. That is the process of belief. So when I'm saying 'forget it,' you as consciousness have the power to not give it truth value one. Is it so? When this comes, then what are you taking yourself to be? Who has to find his freedom? Who has to find freedom? This is still the idea, the non-existent one, whether it is tree or it is a pink-haired watermelon.

Mooji says that all these thoughts come auditioning for our attention, and they audition so well because they know the buttons to push. Even the mind is not wasting too much energy, just know, 'Okay, now this one wants to be free, so let's now dangle that character, dangle that character. Do like this, you stay like this, then you will be free.' But the representations it is making of you are still small. Now it will say, 'But what am I taking myself... oh, I'm taking myself to be Atma. Atma, I'm not a person, in the Atman is freedom.' Okay, even that is all right, because confusion is the whole Zen way anyway.

So, suppose that your intellect is completely confused. What about the rest of you? Okay, so there is a confusion, and the analysis of that confusion—is that all there is to you? Is it not effort of dropping it in that? It's completely fine. Sometimes for some, 'ignore' gives a feeling of trying to hide, you know? That's fine. So it doesn't matter what word you're using as long as it points you in this openness and emptiness, it's fine. Don't try to determine what is the best pointer that will get you home, okay? Whatever pointer seems to be working at the moment, just use it, okay? You're not trying to solve it for the rest of humanity, just solve it for yourself.

So if you ignore it... not ignoring, now what's the problem, you see? But don't try to make a mantra out of it that everybody can use and say, because another will hear 'ignore' in a different way. How you look at 'ignore' is very different from how another may look at it. Otherwise, one template, one scripture, one set of words could have solved it for all of humanity. But there's nothing like that. You keep trying, trying, trying; everybody reads it in a different way. Yes, yeah. Even the world doesn't exist by its own units, so we cannot templatize it. That's why we cannot templatize it. And the source of all religious conflict and spiritual conflict is the effort to say, 'My template is better than your template.' But every template is met with a different set of conditions and has its own case.

But then again, at my confidence level, I always need the validation of my... validation of my time, and I start evaluating and then thinking again was in that section...

But you're at this beautiful point. You said there is confusion, there is analysis of the confusion, and what else is there to you? So even to make a statement about your level of confidence, is there an analytic process which is like due to that conclusion? So, part of that whole mind-intellect case. Now, what else is there to you? So suppose you don't step back right now. Is your mind-intellect all there is to you right now? Without any movement of any sort, is your being completely full with the mind-intellect? And is that which is aware of being just obscure and somewhere way back, or is that just a visual your mind itself is planting through?

So, are you aware right now? What allows you to conclude that? Is it... are you saying that you are aware because you perceive, therefore you must be aware? Is it like that? No, it's more direct because the 'yes' came fast. Now, I don't know what will happen after that, because at least that was very innocent. After that, the mind may take it on and say it is only because this becomes that, but it wasn't because anything. What is that knowledge which allowed you to conclude that you are aware?

Let it happen. Like, let it happen. Whatever confusion, clarity, cloudiness, full clear, allow all that to happen. Is there an aspect to you where all this is not happening? All this movement is not like that. Okay, let's take it simply. Maybe it sounds in the mind a lot of confusion. What if what is happening in your stomach? Confusion? No. So there's an aspect even to your body which is beyond the confusion. What is happening to your hand? So there are various aspects which we just take to be ourselves, but we rely so much on this that we have to resolve it here that we miss even the simplest thing, you see.

In fact, the Buddhist practice of mindfulness, it's just about bringing our attention to things which are not the mind, you see. It could be body sensation. When you're walking, just walk, which means pay attention to the sensation in your feet. What happens? You start giving value to the other aspects of your being which it seemed like in the human condition we have been neglecting, neglecting for so long. But even beyond the body sensations, isn't your being apparent to you now? Can you stop being? The mind will keep us fixated on this aspect, on itself. It wants all the attention and 'look at me,' although you'll see that it's a medicine being, yeah, because you're still using the mind as a determinant of the truth or what is happening to you. I'm showing you that the whole point of... see, before you came to satsang, you were clear you have the mind, yeah? So allow me that you come to satsang to...

For so long, but even beyond the body sensations, isn't your being apparent to you now? Can you stop being? The mind will keep us fixated on this aspect, on itself. It wants all the attention and 'look at me,' although you'll see that it's a meddling being, yeah? Because you're still using the mind as a determinant of the truth or what is happening to you. I'm showing you that the whole point of—see, before you came to satsang, you were clear you have the mind, yeah? So allow me that you come to satsang to show you what else you have that you don't need to learn by coming to satsang. That you are an expert—all of us were experts before coming to satsang—how to use the mind. All the tricks of the mind, we are experts at that. You come to satsang to discover the truth, which is beyond just the ability to conceptualize, the ability to interpret the world. So all of you can, any of you can understand. So come, let's keep it like this. Let's keep it like this. Let's keep it like this. Keep it alive and full.

Nothing prepared to say but just a glimpse or insight, if you want to call it that. Nothing can actually affect this, even the idea of the contents affecting this. Actually, it's not true either, whether it's satwik content or tamasic content or any content. And this is nothing personal, actually. And if I even in memory go back and recollect those moments, this has always—the contents changed at every age, at the age of ten, fifteen, twenty—but this has been constant. And it's nothing I can claim that I have which seems to play out in this world, and it is not as simple as it usually is defined to be. But even these notions of satwa, they may have their own place in the play of the manifest. It's fine. And sometimes you might feel like if you're in a very satwik environment, then to contemplate what is being pointed at in satsang is simpler. But if you're in a non-satwik environment, it just can seem very almost like an attack, you know, in the sense like that. But ultimately, even through all of this play of the gunas, our reality remains unchanged through that.

Not the sakshi of all of this, the witnessing of all of this. This is exactly what you're saying, unaffected through all of this, isn't it? So the idea in satsang is not to say, 'Okay, then I can lead any kind of life and it doesn't matter if I'm fully...' because in reality nothing happens. That is just like Advaita excuses. But the thing is that just to come to—and you notice many of you will say, 'When I come to satsang hall or something happens, you know, that I just feel like all of this mind stuff was so heavy before I came, but easier. I wanted to ask you about this problem, but I come and sit in front of you and the problem is gone.' So what happened? Some energetic support is being provided in some way.

I know. I have noticed that, you know, there was one conversation which you had, I think two satsangs before, with a man called, I think, Sreekanth. And he said, 'I have seen it, that this is my nature, so then I can do whatever I want.' So he started drinking and then you pointed out it's not—it's not mukti. But yes, so this can be—I can see that it plays. 'Oh, now I know what my nature is,' the mind plays like that, 'so I can go and dive into tamasic stuff and nothing...' But actually, it's an excuse. It can become an excuse.

It can become. Most of the world, you say, 'What is your idea of freedom?' then they'll say, 'Freedom for me means whatever comes to my mind I should be able to do. I should be able to get whatever comes, do whatever comes to my mind.' So it is freedom for the mind. The mind is proposing to us as freedom, but true freedom is freedom from the mind. So when you free your mind—all these popular songs and culture, we have this idea of 'free your mind'—it is actually to get free from the oppression of the mind, to be freed from mental slavery. See, that is freedom. And the mental slavery is very, very oppressive because its representations of what we are are so limiting compared to what we are in reality. So freedom is freedom from mental slavery. But the mind itself convinces us, 'No, no, freedom is for me. I should be the king.' And we've seen where all those stories go, mostly, isn't it? Mostly in the world we see where those stories go.

Thank you for your presence, Father. Yes, so your question was—does what comes up—and there's been like a seeing recently that there's a psychological energy of there being a problem and then the urge to fix the problem. But there's not actually a problem, but just the habit of needing to fix an energy that can't be fixed because it's not a problem to begin with, but just the energy of it. So that's been really interesting. Very devious.

Thank you. Thank you for pointing that out because one very devious version of this is the mind convincing you that your very being is the problem. Like who was saying last week or the week before that, 'But the problem is I am still here. I have to go.' And when we dug in, we saw that this 'I am' is I-amness itself. So the mind has played this trick. It has used spiritual pointing itself to make the being itself the problem. That which we are looking for has become now the villain of the piece, and we feel like, 'Till I am, then till then I cannot be free.' But how can you be awake without you, without your being? How will the waking state be? You see? So this is probably the most devious form of the mind, but it plays in the same way with everything. Because everything ultimately that shows up is your being, and to take that to be a problem or to take that to be what should not be is the trick of the mind. It's always a mind attack. Can you see as well?

It's there. There's space to see the inner, to see it. There's like a space of seeing it and knowing that there doesn't have to be a story attached to the psychological energy that was once seen as negative. Like it just appears as a bubble. It was seen that it appears as a bubble and that that seemed to need to be resolved. It's a habit. It was a habit, like a disease. Yeah. And that same seeing that sees that is just—there's more clarity to see that everything is just seen. So it can just go and there's more space for that to happen.

Yes, I just so much related to what she was saying because this is what's happening. Or it's like the only thing is that the idea that the sensation shouldn't be here, something like that. Yeah, like there is not like a—even though if there is a thought, 'I don't want to feel this,' I don't know, I'm just imagining the thought right now. Yeah, it's like it's seen. It's like this is when it's not true and it just goes. But like this is like, yeah, what she said. This is the only—

Yeah, the mind can convince you that something is a problem only when it has a claim to understanding what something is. The thing in itself, if it was determinable by the mind, then we would reveal the mind. But it cannot be determined by the mind. So it has these broad buckets like sensation, perception, emotion, body, world, consciousness, awareness, self. These are the primitive sort of constructs which the mind has to try and make some sense out of this world. But actually, it just makes nonsense out of this world. Is your experience of the world lacking without—if you did not have the label 'world,' is there experience of the world lacking because you did not have the label 'world'? So we are experiencing—let's call this the word—we use the label 'world' to get rid of the label 'world,' okay? So experiencing this, is your experiencing of it lacking in some way? Suppose you were a baby. You're still experiencing the world. You did not have to know, 'Okay, this is world, this is body, this is mama, this is papa.' And without that also, you are experiencing them. You know that you feel comforted in the embrace of the mother. Did you have to be told, 'Oh, this is your mother, that's why you feel comforted'? So everywhere we look, divinity is just playing in its most natural way. But we have got this like idea that only once I'm able to decipher, 'This is what's happening here, this is what's happening to me, this is what I can do to fix it.' Now if you remove that stethoscope, if you remove that self-diagnosis, what is missing? If you took your mind to be an instrument which cannot measure anything truly in time and space, although it claims to be the measurer of that, then what problem could you have? Okay, let's look at it this way. You have one life, okay? And you have one storybook life. Now the mind is telling you the storybook life. It has nothing to do with life and it cannot have access to life, but it can give you the storybook any time you refer to it. So now if you see it that way, are you able to look at life for life itself, or you always read the storybook alone? Our habit has become to just, 'Ah, okay, he's looking at me. Ah, angry.' Yeah, the interpretive device, the dictionary, which is the storybook itself.

Namaste and Pranam. Hello. This is, yeah, beautiful to be in satsang with you for the first time. And I just, ah, something's just it's been alive for basically my whole life. And actually the other day I started to write a letter to Guruji about it, but you know, it's sort of coming up now so I'll bring it here. It feels good. So my whole life, living memory, like my whole life, I've always perceptually experienced this world, like life, as very much dream-like. Like it's a very surreal perception and it's been like that—I can't, there's no beginning to that. It's all like the waking state is totally dream-like. Like it's just been a very interesting experience. And basically, like even when I was a child, I used to ask other children, 'So how much are we here? Like how much do you reckon you're here percentage-wise? Like how much are you hurting?' Like this kind of very inquisitive thing from that young age. And in the experience of that, I suppose it's been quite in a way kind of isolating because I hadn't found anyone to relate to about that experience. And obviously now being in satsang, it's making a lot of sense. And when I was in the beautiful last Rishikesh season and Guruji said the story about the child that said to his mother, 'How do we know this isn't all just a dream and we're already in heaven?' and in the satsang hall my body literally stood me up and said, 'Can I speak about this?' like I had no control over it. And just said, 'Not now,' and I just sat down and had such an intense shame about that. But it was great because it brought everything and I ended up in supportive presence with—just give me a moment. It's okay. Goodbye to my mom. We're joking with her that she preempted our visit so we don't come and give—yes, I can go and—yes, so she said in the supportive presence, she said, 'But you're aware of this.' And that was just like, it just changed it because, yeah, just that it was like, 'Yes.' So even that is clearly just perceived and I'm the awareness. Nevertheless, the kind of question of like, why? Why is it like this? Why is it like this? Because the, I suppose, the intensity of experiencing it's quite strong like this. Because when things look really beautiful, it's very, very beautiful. And when things are very difficult, it's so extremely hopeless and horrible. And so horrible because everything's so, you know—and so in the past to take me to the point of, you know, very dark places and suicidal and all these sort of things and pregnant and all these, you know, intense things and just, 'Well, it's clearly not real, so what's even the point of being here?' because the mind was grabbing it in those dark places. So now obviously I'm clear of that and it's wonderful, but—and yeah, so now it's like, 'But I'm the awareness.' But it feels for some reason that I just want to share this and expose this way of being, and that's really all. I don't know.

The point of, you know, very dark places and suicidal and all these sort of things and pregnant and all these, you know, intense things. And just, well, it's clearly not real, so what's even the point of being here? Because the mind was grabbing it in those dark places. So now, obviously, I'm clear of that and it's wonderful. But, and yeah, so now it's like, but I'm the awareness. But it feels for some reason that I just want to share this and expose this way of being, and that's really all. I don't know what else to say about it.

This is very good. And it's important to talk about this in a way because this 'why' question, or 'what is the point' question, it's very compelling. It's very compelling in the human condition. It's like, why, why, why? If you have played with this question, and we are playing with this idea that everything must have a point, and if it doesn't have a point, then it's a bad thing. It's meaningless. 'Meaningless' is a horrible word in the human claim. 'Oh, you have no meaning for me anymore.' Yeah, that means I'm completely indifferent to you. So these kinds of ideas are terrible in the human being.

But really, to examine whether the instrument that we have has the ability to determine the point of God's creation, or God's play, or God's will, you see, is a worthwhile contemplation. Where would we be able to determine the meaning of this? And many meanings have been provided to us in spirituality also. In some groups, they will say it is a Leela; that means it has no point, but it's not meaningless. It is a play, the play—this is the play of consciousness. Okay. Another will say it is so that God could experience itself in a manifest way, or God wanted to experience itself in a manifest way, or so love can be experienced. Some have even called it an evolution; consciousness is evolving, so it has to manifest itself. But all of these answers are nonsense. They're useful only to the extent that they help us take the question away.

But behind the kind of the question is the human arrogance that my mind can determine what God is playing as or God is playing with. But letting go of this limited instrument, in your heart, you know what this is. You know what this is, but you are not able to translate that into a mental model which makes sense to the mind. This is the thing. So trust implies that we trust our heart, our intuitive knowledge, our intuitive insight. Sometimes it makes us go left, and we don't know why we're going left. We're not able to translate that into any concepts; it just says go left or look here. This guidance comes, but it doesn't come many times as 'go left because there you will find' or 'go here because then...' It doesn't even many times say 'go left.' You just find yourself going left. See? You're right or whatever. I'm not going in you, whatever.

So this trust or devotion implies that you don't need rationality to follow. If something was rational already, then why would you need devotion? We are used to following reason. If somebody gives you ten reasons to come to Satsang—one, you will be like this; two, you will live at; three—then you will come anyway. Devotion means I don't know what's happening, and yet I find myself in Satsang. And don't worry about it; it can be a development of trust and devotion. But this comes to a point like that where we don't know anymore. We're just allowing our heart to determine. And when the mind says, 'What are you doing? Are you being stupid? What does this actually mean?'

When you have showed up from the doorsteps of sages or in Satsangs just like that, you don't know what brought them. There was no rationality. Even if someone else asked, 'Why are you going there? Are you doing that?' She told him, 'You stay for fifteen minutes and come and talk to me,' because after fifteen minutes you'll... If we could determine everything that our heart says in our head, then we need no devotion, we need no trust, because we are programmed to follow rationality anyway and something is already rational.

In Satsang, you hear that you will not get anything. One friend of Garima's who came to Satsang a few times, he told her, 'Thank you so much because I got nothing in Satsang.' Yeah. And he said, 'Do you understand what I'm saying?' She said, 'Yeah, perfect.' So who can understand that conceptually? You discover the new thing that you are discovered. So that explanation makes it more palatable to the intellect. But without that explanation, 'Thank you so much, I got nothing in Satsang'—not sarcasm. It sounds like very sarcastic, but this true gratitude the mind cannot understand at the end of the research.

Why do you come? Isn't it? You don't know why. I like these reports. So you spoke about it last time: 'I decided I'm not going to come. I don't know why I'm here. My car just got me here.' Was it you? Somebody said, 'You can see.' See, nobody wants to purposely come and hear the absurd thing. So something greater must be driving this here if we are coming like a second time, third time.

Even to jump in and speak or not speak. At the beginning of the Satsang, I sent you a message asking you to make a prayer for Lucia. Yes. And when you didn't answer, because I had in my mind that how it would go a certain way, and when it didn't happen like that, then the mind came and said that I failed. And so it's a very upset saying.

Yes, it's very good to see it like that. In fact, I read the message and I'm grateful for the reminder. And we'll, of course, full, full prayer for Lucia and all her, all the suffering and physical suffering that she's undergoing. I'm fully aware that grace is completely with her and all of us. And our full love and blessing, everything that she needs to make this scene light and easy be available to her through my Master's grace. Amen. Thank you. Thank you.

But also very good that grace worked in this way, that this conversation moved in this way so that it gave you also some food for contemplation and to inquire. Because sometimes you can have a temperament: 'Okay, I put this there and, you know, I will read that and this is how it will go and such a nice thing, so my mission accomplished.' But anytime life doesn't go like that, see, it doesn't go to plan. Even when it is the simplest, most innocent request we have from life, it can just be like, no, that decides to dance another way. And how do we deal with those situations? And even those we met with openness. Can those be met with acceptance? Thank you. Thank you for sharing that and thank you for this request for our sister.

Hello. Yes. The girl that spoke before about, like, feeling that the world is a dream or... yeah, it hit me so hard like a brick of wall. So thank you for sharing. Thank you. Thank you. I don't know, but because most of my life I have felt like this as well. Like, I don't know, what am I doing here? Yeah. So nothing changed and it's like, like, yeah, maybe the reason is not needed. But I'm able to expose like I was saying before, and it's like just like I have like that—it's not like a desire, but like a quite a strong feeling that I don't want to be here. It's not like a suicidal feeling, but more like... sometimes it is, sometimes depends on a mood on things, but in general is more like...

One rule I have for all sangha members is that anytime you want to jump out of a window or something, don't jump out of the window; jump into an aeroplane and come to Bangalore. Okay? So all of you must, must accept this rule if you're going to be here.

Yes, yes, yes. But, I mean, this feeling, it does not depend on anything that happens in my life. Again, I mentioned this before.

Yes, yes, my dear. So let's look at this today. It's very good. And I also want to speak to Lania—I don't know how to pronounce her name—but I don't feel like we finished that conversation. But I feel like because we are on the same theme in some way, it's good to really talk about this. So if there's a sense that this is unreal, why is there a real... why does the unreality of this experience have to mean that within this unreality I have to find a way out of this in some way?

It's unrealistic. I'm real. Maybe because there are senses, there are like, let's say something like there is life, you are here, so things do happen. Yes. It's like there's no escape from it where you can, let's say, escape. I would say in you know, is to go within or go into some, let's say, stages of—I wouldn't say like Samadhi or something—but go some almost to other dimensions, kind of stay there if possible, you know.

I want to say something. If one dimension is unreal, then every dimension is unreal. Yes. And only reality is that which is beyond dimension. Now, there is no guarantee that you jump out of one dimension and then you will come to a greater dimension which is more real or something like that. So we don't know how that is going to play out, and I'm not advising anyone to risk that. So for the moment, it is enough that you find the reality of your unchanging selves in spite of whatever the play of unreality may be, isn't it? Because if there is a play, then it will be the same level of unreality. Everything that you can perceive, you can take it to be unreal from the Vedantic perspective if you look at it from that perspective, you see.

But ultimately, I also want to tell all of you that even that, you see, is provisional. In fact, the distinction between real and unreal ultimately is also in the intellect alone. It's not that God is saying, 'Okay, only awareness is real, you see, all of this is unreal,' because real and unreal is also part of the play of the manifest itself.

It's so beautiful to hear. It's not my joy because you said it's this sensorially... it's so sensory in this way. It's not just a mental experience, a mental... it's literally just like, what is this, you know? It's so dreamy.

I can just say something more about this before I forget, because my memory is so bad. So when we say, 'Okay, this is so dream-like,' you know, there's nothing wrong with the dream unless there is still fear in the dream. You see, we only want to escape the nightmares, don't we? We don't want to escape dreams. Dreams are fine. So unless there's an element of fear which makes us want to escape, like we want to run away from our scary dreams. If the dream is nice and everything is fine, then there's no trouble.

Now, in the discovery of what you really are, it is not possible for us to have fear. I mean, the experience of fear may still come, but the elongated psychological fear because of the experience of the taste of the emotion called fear is just not possible. Because you notice that nothing can appear in this manifestation which can truly attack us in any way, you see. And many of us have the experiences of what the world calls lucid dreams and things like that, but it's just like the waking state except that it becomes very weird—what we call weird. But so does this waking state. So it's not really that different, and there's no impulse to want to escape that unless something really fearful or scary comes, isn't it?

So examine whether the impulse to escape it is because of the unreality of it, which I don't feel like should provide any of that impulse, or there's a feeling that it is pointless and therefore I might as well just escape it. But this is a false notion that something can have a point which I can determine conceptually. Are you with me on that? That seems a bit absurd, isn't it? So unless you have an idea that in this creation, this realm of perception, I should be able to, I have the ability to determine the point, the meaning of life... we cannot determine it to be pointless unless we still rely on the same instrument, isn't it?

Like what is telling us that life is pointless? Only the fear and, yeah, the discomfort for the... yeah.

But even the discomfort is part of the dreamlike appearance and doesn't really tell us anything like that. It's still the interpretive mind which says, 'Ah, okay, now there's fear also. What's the point of being here? All I'm experiencing is this fear.'

The ability to determine the meaning of life—we cannot determine it to be pointless unless we still rely on the same instrument, isn't it? Like, what is telling us that life is pointless? Only the fear and the discomfort. But even the discomfort is part of the dreamlike appearance and doesn't really tell us anything. It's still the interpretive mind which says, 'Ah, okay, now there's fear also. What's the point of being here? All I'm experiencing is this fear' or something like that. So the urge to put it in the box of meaningful or meaningless—both those boxes are only in the intellect. And then if we rely on that kind of determination, then the mind says, 'Okay, now because your current state is meaninglessness, what is the escape from this meaninglessness?' But without the initial determination of meaninglessness, there would be no urge to really escape, unless your constant experience was so much fear. But it's not like that. Nobody has a constant experience of anything, but they have a constant interpretation of everything as something.

Maybe we can read the transcript of it. I can see this mouth is going by really fast. But you're with me? Tell me, I can repeat some of it. Both of you, how is it?

I don't know. For me, it's like, I don't know, it doesn't resonate so much. I don't know why, because at least I don't feel like I have too many kinds of concepts of real, not real. Or I might, I might not be aware, but it's not experienced like that, like it's escaping or fear. I think those things may be natural to feel time to time in life. Throughout life, everyone on this earth will experience something like that. But this feels like something I want to say like deeper, but there's like a tiredness. And it's been like most of my life. Like, I always felt like older than anyone else and always somehow different, somehow, I don't know.

Yes, yes, I have a deep sense of what you're saying. And yes, sometimes this is an unexplainable sort of thing. But I want to take it even deeper and say, in my insight, it is not possible for consciousness to be projecting something unless it wanted to really experience it.

What do you mean?

In the sense that when you sit deeper—let's go even deeper and say, okay, now you say that beyond the mind and its notions of meaning or meaninglessness, something deeper just says, 'I'm done with this, done with this thing.' But let's go even deeper and say, okay, now is consciousness itself saying this? Saying that, 'No, Father, no, no, no'?

Because if I wouldn't see that, they wouldn't meet here today. Because I am able to see that here I am in front of you today.

See what? Just repeat that for me. What are you able to see?

That even just like—it's not that I'm tired like life has no interest or something. It is being seen as another, like something, let's say, in consciousness as a happening. But it can never be my reality. It can never. But still, it's, I don't know, it's just like maybe the relationship with it or just somehow it's a lot lately. It became a lot. Like even if something very beautiful would happen in my life, this feeling doesn't go away.

Okay, let's look at the feeling then together, and then we'll come back to what I was saying. So you say it doesn't go away. Tell me about it right now. What is the feeling in itself, with as little interpretation as possible?

Just a thought. It's not even a feeling. Maybe some sensation in the body of like nervousness, but it's just the thought on reality, the dream itself. Like it feels like it.

Stay with this for a moment. It can feel a bit strange, but just stay with whatever you are experiencing. And just when you are communicating it, as lightly—sometimes I say just describe, don't explain. Just describe, don't explain. Because explanation needs a lot of knowledge. To describe like a five-year-old, you know? Like five-year-old children, they say, 'I have a pain' or 'Something is hurting in my tummy.' Something like that without knowing, 'Okay, I think I have some gastric issue' or something like that. That requires knowledge. So can you look at what is here and tell me? Just describe it, don't explain.

Honestly, I cannot. It's just something... I cannot because it is difficult. Maybe I thought of my reality, me. So these thoughts are coming and going.

What else? Mute this for a moment. It's because I'm looking for something. It's because I'm looking for something.

So that's an explanation, to infer and put causes.

Just tell me the content of your experience right now without any derivative interpretation.

Feeling sensation of the body. Yes, yes.

What about your being itself?

It's like, I don't know, like even being can be perceived and in a way you are aware of your being.

Yes. So is there any sort of notion of reality and unreality, dream-likeness or waking state, any of that? But even—it's like, remember not to explain, just to describe.

Now the feelings of like, I don't know, some pleasant feelings are coming up.

And good. It doesn't mean because it's pleasant or unpleasant. It's just that you're able to stay with as simple a description as possible. Now the thought, 'But it does not solve my problem.' Yes, all is saying, 'It does not solve my problem.' And the thought will also say what the problem is if you ask. But it also proposed to you some time ago that the problem is always there. But in just looking for it right now in the most simple, innocent way, what did we find? Just a set of sensations. Just that set of sensations which we call the body, maybe some even pleasant feelings. But it doesn't matter whether it was pleasant or unpleasant. It's a set of feelings, you see? But no conceptual problem about any reality, unreality, or being here or not being here. All of that is not relevant to just your pure state of being.

Yes, but somehow I wish that I wouldn't have this. This makes life quite interesting, you know? Maybe not.

I understand that, but maybe this itself is a tool that you could use. You could just notice for yourself whether you're just staying with a direct seeing of what is appearing or you're falling into some sort of even subtle interpretive tendency. And that is all that freedom is, actually. That is all that freedom is. And these interpretive tendencies will get subtler and subtler till they seem like, 'But I really am, I'm not interpreting. I'm not interpreting at all. I don't feel like I'm interpreting.' But even that is an interpretation. If you are able to put yourself in any limited construct as if you are a body-mind, there has to be an interpretation. Otherwise, that construct is not possible without even the subtlest. So when the mind proposes to us that, 'It's always like this,' and 'I don't think I'm being conceptual at all right now, but I am always like this,' if you notice that 'I' is what in that? And you can notice very well then there must be mind. It is just that the tricks of the mind become subtler and subtler, and sometimes it tries to speak as if it is the heart itself. 'Hello, I'm your heart calling,' you see? 'I feel like I always have this problem because I...' as this 'little me' as I've been calling it, is a representation which has to be an emotional representation or a limited representation. So now, maybe the tool could be just to remain in as much as possible this pure perception. And consciousness is not making a mistake by presenting itself with all of this play of light and so on. When it is done with it, it goes to sleep. Then it wants to taste it again. I mean, I'm putting it in primitive terms, but once we taste it again, it comes up again. So we do not conceptually have the capability to be able to determine, 'No, no, this is all about you.' And that is the trouble sometimes you can have because of the notion of unreality, you see? You can just feel like all of this is a big mistake.

No, actually I do feel like if I do sit down and really like concentrate on—it's not that it disappears, but the world disappears. Then all these things disappear.

Yes, but not disappear in a conceptual sense. Is it that the world disappears like the notion which could say, 'Okay, this is body, this is world, this is being, this is self'? All that disappears. Duality disappears. It's something like, maybe Papaji said, that nothing ever happened.

Yes, you started going. Does the notion of 'happened' also disappear? The notion of something and nothing also disappeared. Yeah, but I'm so grateful that this came up. Thank you so much. And maybe lately that again, it's something again, maybe a similar question I had before, but like, it's not that I'm trying, but naturally, naturally I want to maybe stay and some things, I don't know, I just don't want to pick. Just leave it all together. Leave it, leave it, leave it, leave it. There is that's what's happening. And maybe, I don't know, maybe sometimes like I think maybe it's irresponsible, maybe I should look deeper, but I don't know.

Well, to leave everything conceptually is your greatest responsibility. How did you put it like that? So I'm taking my responsibilities very seriously. Space is all open and empty, you see? Whether outward activity is full of work or just sitting on a couch already, it doesn't matter. The beauty of the simplicity of just saying not to interpret—I mean, that was just really potent.

And yeah, when there's something came up in the current Sahaja Yoga Express satsang about—I just jotted down some, you know, to do with this—the dreamer in the dream. And it's more like clearly there's a dream happening, and now through the grace of Guruji and satsang, it's that the dreamer is actually the unreality. The only thing that's real is this awareness. And so that is the beauty. And so when you're saying just don't interpret, it's so clear. As simple as that.

As simple as that. Thank you, thank you. One says, even without the feeling of jumping out of the window, I wish to jump into an aeroplane and come over to Bangalore. Yes, you're very welcome. All of you should be able to unmute yourselves.

I was at home. Hey, Father. Hello. No idea. Hello. I have one question I want to check with you, so maybe you guide me a bit. Okay? Yes. The thing is, so right now the second bird is there, and the third bird also there. Suppose it's there and it's beautiful, but the person thinks it's the person. I don't have the recognition that I am the Self. I see, I see. Okay.

Thank you. This is a beautiful, beautiful question. So let's really look at this. So there's a body-mind in the realm of activity and it's doing all of whatever happens in the realm of the waking state. So that is the first bird. There's a mind which interprets that first bird to be 'me, myself.' That interpretation or belief in that interpretation is what we call the person. Yes? But that which is perceiving all of this, you see, the being which is perceiving all of this remains untouched by any of that play. And beyond even the being, there is awareness which is aware even of the perception that the being is having, isn't it? Now all of this that you're saying, you say that you recognize this, isn't it?

Yes, I recognized them.

Both who? The witness and the Absolute? I recognize right now.

Yes, yes, yes.

So when you say the recognition is not here, just because the mind continues to take itself to be, or tries to present the proposal that you are a person, doesn't mean that you have not recognized the truth, isn't it? Because you are saying that, 'I recognize that I am this awareness which is aware of fear, which is perceiving the activity of this body.' Yes? As Guruji said, the truth is even beyond two and even beyond. My question is now...

So I have right now a bit of feeling of oneness and a bit of feeling of person. It's like the mixture. And of course, the truth is that Absolute is there.

Yes. So don't expect your feeling to confirm your oneness. Expect only the truth to confirm your oneness. And you're saying the truth is always there. So why? What effect...

I realize that I am this awareness which is aware of fear, which is perceiving the activity of this body. Yes, as Guruji said, the truth is even beyond two and even beyond one. My question is now, so I have right now a bit of feeling of oneness and a bit of feeling of person. It's like the mixture. And of course, the truth is that Absolute is there.

Yes. So don't expect your feeling to confirm your oneness. Expect only the truth to confirm your oneness. And you're saying the truth is always there. So what effect does the change of feeling have on the truth? No effect, isn't it? So our job then is not to provide a set of feelings which the mind can interpret as your stability in your freedom, because those benchmarks are not ones you can use for your freedom. It is just to see that in reality, it is so apparent to me that I am this pure witnessing that is aware of this immense Beingness that is here, within which this play of the body-mind and all the activity of the universe happens, which includes the play of feelings, thoughts, emotions—all of these things. It has nothing to do with which branches the world can pick up or not, isn't it? It's nothing to do. No, no. So then to say that because the nest looks like that, I am not fully free because it doesn't have the right leaves and branches, you see—which means it doesn't have the right emotions and feelings or thoughts—then that would be a fallacy.

Yes, but sometimes I have like more that in the mind it appears that somehow I'm not so much the doer and somehow even the doer is less there. So it's like the dissolution of the doer, a little bit. But then the mind likes it and says, 'Ah, this is oneness.' Then suddenly I'm out of that and I'm totally the doer, and I know truth is there and then I want to have the oneness, but I think...

Yes, I'll tell you that you're using the wrong measuring tape. Is it okay? The measuring tape will only take you in a loop all the time. Sometimes it will tell you you've got it; sometimes it will tell you you lost it; sometimes it will tell you you're almost there; sometimes it'll tell you you're not getting it at all. All of this will come in the mind. So whatever you can use to measure your freedom, if you throw that away, then that is freedom. Even throw away oneness or twoness of the mind. So definitely, in fact, that you can throw away through it. Yes, yes, that is free. Yes, yes, yes. No, no, you were doing very well and then you started going to the measuring tape again. So don't do that. Let it go. It's fine.

Are you so on my eyes that I could go to the mind again? Okay, okay.

Yes, I suggest so. Just recognize truth all the time. No, and no, even this idea you can throw away. Oh yeah, yeah. Which is, tell me about yourself which doesn't include the mind or intellect.

I can't. I don't know. Um, yeah, there's maybe...

Okay, okay, pause. So whenever you went for that answer, just forget about that. Forget about the place that you went to. Let's call it a place where you went to for that answer, you see? Don't go there. Don't worry about that. Whatever is happening in that playground, let it happen. You don't be bothered by it. It is not telling you the truth over there. It's a conceptual version of the truth. It's a mind version of the truth.

And yeah, yeah, but the mind is what is called false.

Yes, yes, of course. Of course. Even of the truth, of the truth.

Yes, but then it will come. So right now I have really the feeling to be like one, but it will come.

I have a feeling... are you just hiding a thought on the word feeling?

Yes, yes, I did make the mistake again that I took the mind versions of oneness for the truth. Thank you, thank you. That's my version. Don't make any conclusion based on that.

Yes, yes. I try to jump in here because I have the feeling that we are touching all the time again the fact that I'm looking at the fact that we are in Satsang. Even if we don't want anymore what we want, as you said before, it will just come because something is happening here. And I'm always fascinated by that because it is the fact that makes us meet here. And just now what happened is so beautiful for that because I observe that we have all our experience that what makes us touch is that the person or the mind goes into all sorts of scenarios and the storytelling, as you say. And so we are always putting things together and doing them together in a special way in the moment for the necessity of being somebody and expressing something coherent and so on. And so even in Satsang it happens over again and again. We are trying to hold things together, to sort them out in a special way and so on, because otherwise what are we doing here, you know? But actually we come because we don't want that, but we do it because it's a habit. So we wish... and so that's why the image came to me a few weeks ago: we come to look where there's light because we lost the light there. And of course, there we lost Atma. Hello.

Okay, first Satyam can speak and then I will come. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So yes, what he's sharing actually is very beautiful. Before Satyam says that, we are here in Satsang not to make any conceptual pictures of what is happening, or what this is, so that we sort of try to create a coherent version of the world or what is here. And yet there's a temptation even in Satsang to use spiritual concepts to make that same house of cards in some way. And that is when in Satsang many times I use the word 'provisional' or 'just for now' we'll use this concept so that it replaces the previous sticky concepts. And then also it is my job to clean up the newer ones. So any concepts that I have given you, it's also my job to clean those up when they have done their job. But a beautiful insight by Satyam.

Yeah, and so that's why I want again to look at the fact that what is happening in Satsang is, as you just said now, steering again and putting away what is conclusive. And here I see that the light of now is just irreplaceable by anything else. Something is like, you know, the German poet Goethe, he said something like, 'What is more precious than gold? Light. What is more precious than light? Dialogue.' And Satsang is a perfect illustration of that. So I feel I'm attracted to this place and to this happening because it is a cure. It awakes the true life in me which is not conclusive, which is not grasping. And so I'm always so grateful even if I'm lost many times, just feeling the energy because many times the sound is not good enough and so on, and my English and so on, I'm swimming a bit. But I'm always happy even if I'm struggling or sleeping even, you know. But the energy of this meeting now around this is irreplaceable. But I must say I'm longing, I feel it is contagious and grace is happening, you know. It's coming, it's freeing, it's freeing. Thank you.

Thank you, David. Thank you, thank you. I would like to talk. Yes, Jada was coming after this. After that you can. Okay, thank you, Father.

Um, sorry, I don't know now. Sorry, Father. It's fine.

Jada is contemplating her question. The mind actually never proposes something which it claims is false. Even if it says, 'But this is false,' it's saying that this is true, that it is false. So when you were saying to the sweet boy before that the mind's version of truth is what we call the false—no belief is believed because we consider it to be false. We believe because we consider it to be true. So consciousness has the ability to take the false to be true or the limited representation to be a good enough representation. To play with those representations is called playing with ignorance or believing in Maya. So just like that. But outside of the mind, there is no such thing as false. So when I say, 'What else is there to you without your interpretive tendency?' what do you mean? Even when you meet the body sensation, there's pure perception, there's no trouble. There's no real problem for the mind to fix for us to deal with. The tiny playground of the mind where all this game is happening and we are missing the rest of ourselves in that dream is also part of the whole play.

It's... I just want to cry.

And even as you cry, you notice that the crying in itself is innocent. All of us may say, 'Oh, why is she crying?' and that is the need for the narrative. What does that mean for the narrative which all of us have? It's like we need a reason behind everything. Sitting there, all the tears and everything else is coming out, you see? And because the mind doesn't know how to grapple with it, you feel like it will only be satisfied once the 'why' is answered. But suppose Jada just doesn't tell us why, then something else comes which is more exciting for us to resolve. Have we noticed this tendency? It's like the need to be able to determine why, right? Why she's crying, like a big mystery that all of us have to solve. But we don't have to solve because even she doesn't know why she's crying. Nobody knows conceptually what anything is. And I feel so comfortable with it actually. So this is the magic: once you learn to leave the 'why' alone, then we are free no matter what is happening. The notion of causation is very much linked with the 'why' question—that this, therefore then, because of that, this is. It keeps us in that structure of these frames which keep moving forward like a comic book narrative. If you ever read a comic and the next screen has nothing to do with the previous one, you just want to see some pages. What is linearity in our thinking? That something which seems like outside our realm of rationality can seem too much.

I don't know now, Father. I just... I was being triggered at the beginning of the Satsang first when you talk about thoughts. I just thought that, what is thought actually? You know that you thought that? No, yeah, yeah, that's a thought. Then, Father, what I realize is that before I met you or maybe even Guruji, it's like we just read, you know, like 'this is a thought' and 'thoughts are not real,' all these things. And after that, of course, some misunderstanding happened and I just remembered this, and that's why I triggered. Like whatever arises within my perception, it turned into like, 'Oh, this is a thought,' and it turned into a kind of rejection, you know, whatever it is. And then of course, the insight is also something which appears, and also intuition is also something that appears. And what I realized in my life is that I actually don't reject thoughts—I didn't reject the thoughts, but I reject all the intuitive voice within me and it caused too much trouble. I just realized that. And this was the first trigger. And then you were talking with Satyam and you said something to him also like Advaita causes... I don't remember now, but this one also was the second trigger within me because I saw how I played them and how I really suffer. And I don't know, it's like the tears of this... I laugh because I explain my tears anyway. And when I come to you, I just realized that at the same time how being with you, even though they are still playing, I can see them and I still suffer them on some level, but at the same time I couldn't speak with you because I see how, I don't know, being with you just removes all these things at the same time. Like something else has taken over my life and they are not so much relevant anymore, but they are still there. So I don't know.

I laugh because I explain my tears anyway. And when I come to you, I just realized that at the same time, how being with you—even though they are still playing, I can see them and I still suffer them on some level—but at the same time, I couldn't speak with you because I see how, I don't know, being with you just removes all these things at the same time. Like something else has taken over my life and they are not so much relevant anymore, but they are still there. So I don't know, just this for now. Is this something which takes back its own life? I don't know, just so much crying comes, messes it up.

Yeah, just because you explain your tears doesn't mean that that is exactly what the tears are for. So was the storybook life? Was it live in storybook? We know why and why not. In life, there is no such thing. Many times we take storybook life to be live.

Yeah, that's why I struggle with talking.

But you know why you struggle with talking? Like, I don't know anything and I don't struggle with talking.

I couldn't understand you. I think that many times I can feel that because I don't know, that's why it's a struggle to communicate. But many times because we don't know, communication is not a problem. I feel a little bit distant to you, I don't know why, and that's why I cannot open myself in this conversation and it doesn't go anywhere.

Wow. What do we mean by feel? Is 'feel' a term for thought? No, it's just something so stupid. Is there a reason? 'Feel' is another excuse, like 'I'm just feeling' because we know that he's... Your mind is clamoring for something to hold, but your heart's longing is being fulfilled by making you completely naked, completely empty.

Let's just take my thoughts seriously.

Yeah, exactly. Just like any other perception, no feeling is actually decipherable by the mind. It can only be met in your openness and in your heart. So embrace everything that you feel and you experience in your heart and don't try to determine what it is so much in your head. Think that this is what this is, this feeling is creating this, it is creating that. Our mind doesn't know what anything is.

Without any doubt, I put something. This conversation doesn't go anywhere and I can't, Father. I'm close to you. The storybook live, all storybook live. Okay, done.

Okay, next one. This is the funny thing that many times I've had this experience where somebody will come to me, they will say, 'I'm close to you,' and if I say 'Okay,' then they feel like they're rejected. But you said, 'I'm close to you.' I'm not saying that I am close to you. This is the funny nature of the mind. 'Oh, I'm so close to you, I don't want to talk right now.' 'Okay, we'll talk later.' 'Oh, he's rejecting me!' But you said you were close. It's hilarious. Okay, let's go to Gemma.

Hello. I want to talk about something that for me is very serious. Very serious.

So is the intent of your saying 'it is very serious' so that I should take it seriously? No? Good to clarify that. Good.

The point is that I've been feeling better, like as a mental and physical and myself, yes. But there's something, there's this attachment of all this time of suffering, yes, that I cannot take it out of mind. Like, I cannot say, I cannot stay like, 'Oh, I feel fine now.' And but all this suffering is there some way in memory, of course, but it's there, you know? And it makes me feel like anger, anger, anger and sadness. And also, it was here for a moment so something is coming up to say.

Firstly, I'm very happy to hear that you're feeling better. I'm very, very happy to hear that. Now, on the point about almost like there was a habitual suffering in the past and there is suffering which is in the memory now, I want to just point out that if something is in the memory, what does it mean? If it is only in the memory, even what does it mean? That it is gone, isn't it? Yes, only in the memory, so it's gone. So not the conclusion that it is there because it is there in memory, but actually the conclusion that it is gone because it is only there in memory, which means it is past. Only past is in the memory, therefore it is gone. So it is something that is worth celebrating if you can say, 'All my suffering now, there was a habit of it, but now it is only in the memory.' That means, wow, this is gone. It is only in the past. So there is nothing to fix in the memory, nothing to resolve in the memory, because memory is... it is gone. You don't have to keep memory, you see? Memory is just so-called images from the past, you see, which one we can't even confirm. So best to leave that too, past alone.

Yes, but it's not only in memory.

Oh, I see. I thought you said that's the point.

The thing is that, well, of this only suffering, you know, because I explain you many times about mental health and my experience in mental health. But the thing is that I'm with an association in mental health where there's only working meeting people that have mental health experience in themselves. So we meet and we make different projects. Now the project we are doing mostly in this association is peer-to-peer, which means...

Peer-to-peer, yes.

Like we give some, I don't know, is it like a one-on-one?

Yes, one-to-one.

Yes, yes, okay. And so like yesterday we had a meeting via Zoom, and of course when we meet, it's like we see each other as a first person in mental health experience. So it's there, you know? So it's there and I can rely in my own memories somehow. And yes, if I'm feeling okay I can say, 'Okay, I'm fine,' but there's this thing of wanting to solve somehow all about mental health. And it's like, 'Okay, I don't want to be more with these people because I don't want to feel this way anymore,' and meeting with them reminds me in memory or even projects me in things that in future it can happen, many things that happened in the past in me. So, but is the reality of being with them and with my own experience and the experiences that are similar that we are working in this material moment? So I don't want to quit that and so it makes me a complexity in mental. We get you, but it gets the mind complex like that. It can, no, no, no, not all the time, but it can, like this complex of... no, I don't want to say this. Actually what I want to say is that it's like I have to be here as a human or as a person also to be able to... how is my life unfolding? If I'm okay, my life seems is gonna be unfolding in this subject, right?

So we don't have to predict or preempt or try to determine what the content of life has to be. You stay with this sense of beingness, the presence and the guidance which is making you feel better, and you're very clearly better. So you stay with that and leave whatever has to unfold to grace. You don't have to say, 'Oh, should I be in that? Should I do the peer-to-peer? How should I be in the world?' That really is not your business in some way now, because it is to remain with presence, remain with this light in your heart and let that light take care of what shows up. And you don't have to manage that kind of thing in this way because the mind doesn't have the capacity to manage it and will only create more problems, more stress.

But I see it's because I have in my life I have a dream, I don't know in English because I feel more work, but anyway. Oh yes, I wanted to say that I've been since last November just doing nothing, yeah, just being on the couch feeling very bad, doing many things very, very bad and staying in the hospital after depression or being very bad. Okay, and now that I'm feeling good, let's say this way, it's like there's this energy that wants to move, right? So like I applied yesterday to the meeting when I haven't been applying to this meeting that is one time for many months, but yesterday I could apply, I could stay there, right?

And I just wanted to say something about this, which is that as the energy comes very naturally, some life force will come. If consciousness wants to move this body in this way, it will also provide the life force, the life energy for it to move. So even that you don't have to trouble with, because if the energy is there, then it will make the movement also happen. It is not a half-energy which will just be there and then somebody there has to decide, 'Should I move?' Because the energy is there, the energy itself will move you. It is intelligent enough to move you if it has to, and it is intelligent enough not to move you if it doesn't have to. So even that is not something that you have to think about or determine, you see? Maybe this energy just goes up and then it will move the body in itself. It will move the mouth, it will move the hands to type or to go with the feet to go somewhere. The same thing, the same consciousness, the same being which is providing that energy also will provide the intention behind the energy and move the body in whichever way it has to move.

So there's something else that I don't know, it comes from mind, that is that it's like if I can rest here in this peaceful place, it is like I'm more... there's more wisdom without wisdom. And it's like I want to take this wisdom to... because there's a lot of anger about mental health. So it's like on one hand it's like I have to control I don't get crazy again, and on other hands I have to...

Okay, my dear. So both of these opposites, whatever the alternatives may be being provided, they're just conceptual and in the intellect now. Going beyond the mind, going beyond the intellect, what is making you feel better? So don't get involved in any of that problem solving or determining, 'Should I do this? Should I do that?' Allow grace to provide whatever intelligence, whatever energy is needed for this life to flow in whichever way grace wants. You don't have to say, 'Okay, should I share my wisdom about mental health or should I just remain peaceful on the couch?' None of those problems are for you to solve. Nothing is for you to solve, like 'I need to know which direction to go.' You see, the mind will say, 'I want to know, should I be more like this? Should I be more like that?' But allow it to be undetermined and the movie to play out fresh, every scene to play out fresh. If you were able to predict every scene of the movie before it happened, then it would not be a fun movie to watch. So don't determine. Let's see what the director has in store for you.

But it's like I don't have this feeling of myself this morning, or if it's moving by itself and it's kind of a craziness or something.

The homework for this week is to see if you can find somebody who is moving the body. See if you can find the 'me' or the 'I' which is moving the body.

You mean doing activities or thinking or memory or any more feeling?

Any movement which I take to be mine, any action which I take to be mine, then to see if you can find the doer of that action.

But this can break me to crazy state.

Ah, okay. So then you don't do this. Then you do what we're doing, it's fine. We'll do this later.

Because there's like an attention there that gets very confused and then I can go to the hospital and they...

That's right, and then that's fine because I'm... there's no homework for you for this week. You're good. Okay?

Yes. I don't know, I wanted to ask you a question which is very clear but it's completely... I don't know right now. That doesn't come right now. I'm very happy.

Ah, okay. So then you don't do this. Then you do what we're doing. It's fine. We'll do this later because there's like an attention there that gets very confused and then I can go to the hospital and they... that's right. And then that's fine because there's no homework for you for this week. You're good. Okay, yes.

I don't know. I wanted to ask you a question which is very clear, but it's completely... I don't know right now. That doesn't come right now.

I'm very happy. I'm very happy to see that you're feeling better. And all my love, all my blessings.

Can you hear me? Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. I didn't know how to jump in. So I just came now for my brother, actually. Not for myself, actually for myself as well, because the suffering of my brother just leads me always to a limited somebody who wants to help him and wants to do something but doesn't really know what. Because I really tried a lot of things, nicely and forcing and everything, to make him listen to satsang or Guruji or you, but he has a lot of resistance. And with my force, his resistance is just growing up. But I can see him in so much pain in his heart and so many scars, and he's so lonely, actually. And he's very angry at all the world and he doesn't know where to find the peace, and he doesn't want to hear about the truth. And I don't know why. I don't know how the grace is working to get somebody and doesn't another body. I'm just praying for him, but I don't feel it's enough. And all this limitation is here because it's lots of pain in my heart as well. And he is not open to the truth, and I don't know why. I don't want to ask why because you say it's not a good question. But I mean, you know, you say we always leave the universe, time, and space in satsang, but now I just don't want to leave without him because I don't want him to stay here to suffer and I just leave. I don't feel it's fair. I just want him to come with me. He can be with you, with Guruji. I don't know. I just now think maybe the best thing is to ask you if you could pray for him, please, in the best way you can, but like to get the freedom and the highest truth, I mean, as soon as possible. Yes, thank you very much for him.

But I want to tell you also that the idea that 'I don't want to be free without my brother being free' is not helping his freedom. So the best gift that you can give to yourself, to the world, to your family, to everyone, is your freedom. And if all the ones that are free would have said that we don't want to be free unless our full families are free, then we would not have any satsang happen ever, no? Know that the mind can trick you in this way. So you leave time and space conceptually, and that is a better gift that you can give to him rather than to give him necessarily a lot of advice as to what to do. Think about that. That is a bad thing. You can follow your heart about that, but the greatest gift to anyone in this world is to come to the presence of one who is free, who is beyond these constraints of time and space. So why would you not want to give your brother this gift? I find there may be this idea that that is being selfish or something, and this is alone, but I'm not that selfish. But it's not selfish at all. It is the greatest gift that you can give to the whole world and all of humanity, past and future, that you allow yourself to remain in the truth of your discovery and then not get caught up in the false. It will not make you empty of compassion or kindness. In fact, the truth, when it meets the world, is full of compassion and kindness. Reminds me of a picture of us saying, 'Oh, but when you left the time and space, you're just like so aloof and so out there, you see, with glassy eyes and nobody can talk to you.' Then this is just not true. So my full blessings to your brother through the prayers. And I want to also say that when somebody is suffering, the suffering will open up some doors for them somewhere in their heart, you see? It will open up because nobody enjoys constant suffering. And if they enjoy it so much, then they are enjoying it, then we don't have to worry, you see? But if they're not really enjoying it and they're really suffering their suffering, then some door has to open somewhere. And whether it's this type of satsang, some other spirituality, some other search for God, some inward looking for truth, it has to open up because it is not designed to withstand so much suffering. Our systems in this play cannot withstand that much suffering.

Unless... I just would like to say that I knew a lot of... can you hear me? Yes, yes, yes. Sorry, I just have a new tablet now and I'm not sure how it's working. So for example, I know people who were really suffering a lot all their life and actually they died and they never met anybody who told them everything about who you are or what you are. And it seems to me it's like a meaningless suffering life. And yeah, I couldn't help them either and now they're just not here anymore. And I don't want this to happen to my brother as well.

Yeah, but death is not the end of the story.

I know. Yeah, yeah.

Only freedom is the endless truth. So don't worry. Death is just... yeah.

Yeah, thank you. And please, could you ask Guruji's grace as well for my brother?

Yes, thank you so much. When I ask for grace, I'm always asking Guruji's grace. Okay. If you want to come, you can come.

Well, I actually have not much to say or actually I have no questions. I just feel like things are unfolding. Just actually, I'm turning this phone because then I have you in a picture, one second. Yeah, and I can see you better now. Okay. Yeah, although I haven't spoken to you for a while, and I also had maybe some resistance to come up, I still see that shifting is happening. And so, I know, no questions. And no questions for that because I'm just a harmless little lamb. What am I doing? I know it's just the mind part that is well, but I just thought, well, if there is some resistance, I just want to come up. I don't want to listen to the mindset turning up, but I have no question and everything is just fine. Not much to say. Yeah, I still see that there are these subjects in which the identity is playing. I can see that then I need some time to step back into consciousness, so to speak. But that will be solved as well. I just trust that.

You're doing very well, my dear. I'm happy, so happy to hear your report. And thank you for my love. Thank you, thank you. Here, I didn't understand what you're saying, but I had resisted. What's not to like? Because so many of you have been reporting about resistance and things. I know, I'm just messing around.

I have this sense that I'm living my... or I'm living life based on mind projections and stop it. It's very clingy and I can't... I can't stop it here, but I don't stop it tomorrow.

Where is it? It's gone. Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. It's gone.

Can you stop it for me?

If I can stop it for you, I'm already stopped. Stop it tomorrow and the day after and always? No, stop it now. There's only now. Stop it now. Don't put 'always' because 'always' is the biggest trick from the mind. You say that 'I am suffering from mental oppression.' I am telling you that you are consciousness, and consciousness can never really be trapped in mental slavery. But when we take ourselves to be that which we are not, then it can feel like it can really happen that way. So I say stop it. You drop your dependence on the mind for an instant and what you are is freely apparent to you. Whether your mind agrees with that or not is not the question here. But in your heart, it is completely apparent in you. It is unmissable for any of you. Now, if you need it to be only in the mind, then nobody can help you. If you need that obviousness of your reality to be translatable to the mind and your mind to give you the certificate that you have stopped, then nothing can help because the mind is not built like that. It's not built for that. And even when it says those things, it is only as a trap. So I don't want you falling into those traps. Right now, you are free and in your heart you know that. And you know what your heart is in spite of all the resistances from the mind, because the mind will keep pulling you back in the narrative and say, 'Okay, what about when I'm not in satsang tomorrow, next year, always?' All this is about the storybook life. Tell me what your heart is saying now.

My heart wants to cry now. Hot tears available. My heart wants to say you are beautiful.

That's why I keep asking, what does your heart sing? I'm wondering if there's another version.

My heart feels like it wants to take the children and just break up with this world of illusion.

The children, break up with the world of illusion? Your heart is saying like that? I think so. I don't know. Or is that just an interpretation of some feelings? So you and that are not in the illusion, or everything else in the world is illusion? It's like a simulation game where only three real entities... I can accept that the three entities might not be real in your world. I'm just using your reference point of the world of illusion. The world of illusion, everything else except the three. I have to say ultimately that even the notion of illusion and reality is illusion. Even these are provisional to point you to something that... the witnessing which is beyond the realm of perception. So the pointing about the reality of the Self is so that we can bring some focus into this aspect which has been missing in the past. But it is not so that at the end also we are left with a notion of illusion and reality. It's also provisional. That demarcation is also just provisional. As you forget all opposites, even these opposites have to be gone.

Can you help me to see clearly?

There is no you and me. In your sight, it is already clear. It's only in your interpretation where the separation arises. Just allow your perception to perceive what we call perception here. So you heard this often. Allow all perception to happen and see if naturally in any perception there is separation inherent. When you say perception, anything that you can see, anything that you can hear, anything that you can taste, all perception. Okay? So the guidance is to allow that to happen, yes, without interpreting, without judgment, without labeling.

I feel there is nothing without labeling and interpretation.

That nothing is very good. I mean, so is that not how you meant to go?

Sorry, what did you ask?

I said, is that not how you meant it? Did I hear it a different way? You said there is nothing without interpretation. That nothing is your reality. That nothing, nothing. Someone told him, 'Thank you so much, I got nothing by coming to satsang,' and hopefully he wasn't being sarcastic. What is the problem in that? Nothing to allow, just the pure perception to be there without labeling categories of good, bad, must change, not right, all of these things. Okay. Let's give you this and I want to hear a report next Friday on this remaining pure perception. Thank you, thank you.

Hello, Ananta.

Yes, yes, my dear. I was just putting a bhajan, but you can come.

Could I ask you one question again, even if I ask? Okay, perfect. Um, yeah, thank you Father for your help. Yes, um, so I'm all the time really one, beyond the conception of oneness with that and ah, not even that, not even there. Where do you know that? Don't go there. Yes, it makes me so happy because it's so simple. Yes, very good. I'm glad. I'm so happy. For some time some fear can also come, which is also natural. It's okay. So either way is good. Yes. And my question is that now, um, should I be aware of the second bird even, or should I just let go and do nothing? Because I don't know now if there's a second bird or no second bird. It doesn't matter for the truth. And if there is a seeker, or if the seeker is like less in the view of the second bird, it doesn't...

Art makes me so happy because it's so simple. Yes, very good. I'm glad. I'm so happy. For some time, some fear can also come, which is also natural. It's okay. So either way is good.

Yes. And my question is that now, should I be aware of the second bird even, or should I just let go and do nothing? Because I don't know now if there is a second bird or no second bird. It doesn't matter for the truth. And if there is a seeker, or if the seeker is less in the view of the second bird, it doesn't matter to the truth as well. So should I even do the second bird, or everything which is in your intellect, just leave it?

It's fine. So even not the intellectual one of the second bird. Practicing nothing. Nothing.

Yes, okay. Yes. Because before, my practice was, of course, like staying more or less in the second bird while truth is there. And now you say all this practice, no.

Go only saying that anything which is in your mind or intellect, leave that. Then if practicing has to happen, practicing can happen. If practicing doesn't have to happen, it cannot happen either. It was okay. I'm just saying that don't determine what you are and what you should do, what you should be intellectual or conceptual of doing, or time, or any of these things.

Yes, yes. Okay, okay. Yes, yes. But now, even if practicing the second bird took place, I kind of would now start as truth practicing, as before I started as a person practicing.

Yes. You don't have to determine your position. Okay? In fact, you cannot. Just about what I think is your question, no? No, seriously, I'm just having some fun. Okay, what do you think about number two?

I didn't understand because the internet connection...

Don't worry, don't worry. It's fine. That's fine. I was just making a joke about thinking about not thinking.

Ah, yes. Now you thinking about it. Yes, I talked about it, how I often think about not thinking. Yes, stop it. Yes. Yeah, kind of the person has no more fear to lose it because they don't control the enlightenment and the mind.

Do you know this? You know this without the mind? Do you know the state of the person, right?

If I know the person without mind? Yes. No, without the mind I cannot know a person.

Then we cannot report on the state of a person. If it is only from the mind, it is just conceptual.

Yes, yes. Has now some fear comes from the person sometimes. I have it when I talk with people, this insecurity and fear.

You're doing well. Don't worry about this. Allow it to come and go. It's fine.

Yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you very much. See you.