Without Believing the Construct of Your Thoughts, You Cannot Suffer - 17th December 2025

If you're lucky, we might find a fragrance of love, a fragrance of the feeling that you may get—some of you may get when you come to satsang, you may get when you turn inwards as well. So that is grace because that gives us an anchor to rely on. Okay. Otherwise it can seem like a limbo type situation. We don't know whether we are up, down, what is happening.

Now when we hear the mind in the form of thoughts, Maya in the form of its lawyer, which is the mind in the form of thoughts, will try to convince you to take any position about yourself other than being empty, being nobody for God, like a nobodyiness in love with God. That is what you have to come to. No, it's very strange, like you have to come to a lack of a 'me', preferably in love with God, and there we have to stay. But the mind will try to convince you that you are somebody. You are even the spiritual practitioner. You are trying to find God. You're trying to love God. So we have to be empty of all of these notions.

All these notions, if they're helpful to get us here, it is good. Otherwise they can be discarded. Get us here to the quiet stillness of your heart in a humble love for God. Not as a somebody but as a nobody. And if nobody is impossible, then as a humble servant, humble beggar open to receive the morsel from God. God is everywhere and yet somehow there's an ancient rendezvous point where you can meet Him. There's the ancient meeting place where thousands and thousands have reported that the holy meeting happened. That is where we have to stay.

So if the sun is shining but your eyes were closed—so if the sun is shining and your eyes are closed, does that mean that you will not get tanned? Doesn't mean that. So you don't have to... the beauty of satsang, the beauty of what the sages have told us is that we don't have to wait for a palpable Atma Darshan before the Atma starts working on our antahkarana. The Atma, the Holy Spirit, starts working on our soul. It doesn't have to become something that we can report about or testify to, you see. It is enough to follow the teacher's guidance, the sage's guidance, God's guidance to turn inwards and stay there.

Now, if somebody came to you complaining saying, 'I'm not getting a tan because my eyes are closed,' what will you tell them? They make sense. No. How does it not make sense? See how... okay, let me change the question to make more sense. How do I know I'm getting tanned? My eyes are closed. I can't see. Huh? Yeah. But I have no mechanism. You see, because the sun is too bright, it is impossible to open my eyes. But you say that all this holy light is permeating my antahkarana and I'm being transformed. How do I really know?

You see, so in one place you can never really know and in another place you can never really not know. So where are we looking from? And the eyes of the heart are not that unknown to us. You see, we have fallen in love by God's grace. We have experienced a love which is not attachment or lust. Yes, at least for few moments we must have. So that love which is neither grasping nor desire fulfillment—same thing—is known only to that heart which I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the emotion of love which can be felt. I'm talking about that which is beyond emotion.

As a parent, your child may frustrate you. You may be very angry with them at the moment. You see, but someone comes and says, 'Do you love them or hate them?' 'I love them.' That is not the experience of the emotion at the moment. You're experiencing anger, frustration, all these things. But you know somewhere that you would probably do anything for them. The love for that love is unconditional. So how is that known? Even after this first time of satsang getting really bored, when you come a second time, where do you know you have to come? Your mind doesn't tell you, 'You have to go to satsang, it's so much fun.' Somewhere you feel drawn to come. There's nothing to learn here. There's no entertainment here. There's nothing which will help you in any outer way. And therefore to the mind it can sound very, very, very tiresome.

Where you know you want to be here is where you know everything. Now from there tell me if something is changing when you stay there. From there we have to see. It's difficult because we have five senses, we have unlimited imagination, we have superb memory. You see, so all this gets us into trouble. So somebody says, 'No, don't rely on any of this to know the truth.' Then that sounds troublesome. So maybe today it's coming to say the simpler thing just now, which is that don't use your modes of knowledge. Use or allow the Atma to tell you. How would that be?

What do you know about your life? That knowledge is not helping us, not helping us in the Darshan of God at least. And mostly in the world if you see our brothers and sisters, they're not looking happy just in that knowledge of what they think their life is—chasing money, relationships, pleasure, find some intellectual meaning to things and die. So we are not finding any true joy, contentment, satisfaction in the false modes of knowledge. Now we must come into the discipleship of the Atma itself. Allow it to tell you everything.

How to allow? So Juta told me, 'I have got chai for you, Father,' and I said, 'Thank you, thank you, good, good. Wait, I pour my nimbu pani first.' Then what will she say? You say the glass has to be empty, no? For the old Zen saying. So if my glass is not empty, then how will the chai be filled? So if I'm not empty of garbage, then how will nectar be filled? Garbage is what? Avidya. Avidya is a nicer way of saying nonsense, isn't it? Yeah. Ignorance, if you want to be politically correct, polite, but ignorance is nonsense. So we fill ourselves up with the nonsense narrative of our life which the mind has provided us. And that keeps us in a hypnosis of egotism, selfishness, desire.

So think and buy into any thought. Believe any thought, what happens? Let's take an example. What is an example? Any, most harmless: 'I'm feeling cold.' I'm not really, you see. Now, 'I am feeling cold' seems so harmless but actually is full of misidentification because what am I in this case then? I am this body alone. Now in the body, if I am the body, then I am full of flesh and blood, not full of Atma. If I'm empty of that idea, then what am I? If I'm empty of all ideas, then what am I?

You see, so for years I would get a response saying, 'But Ananta, the body is still here.' No. So maybe that's what you want to say, but I'm being polite. So yeah, the body is still here. Now, what is your experience of the body? Perception, hands, feet, perception and sensation. Now if I was to propose to you that these are not containing you, but you are containing them, what would they say? If there is a container, it is not the body and it is not you that is contained. If there is a container, you are the container of not just this body but this entire Maya, this entire Leela. But if you hold on to the idea that 'I am the container of this Leela,' then it is no longer your experience. When you are empty, you see this and you see that you are beyond.

How do you know that this is working? A few moments of being empty, that which you are suffering from no longer seems so important. That immediate prasad—you want instant gratification in this world. So in not believing the construct of your thoughts, you cannot suffer. Try. And I've tried for many years now, maybe 13, 14 years, to ask so many of you to try this. Without taking yourself to be what the thought is conveying, try to suffer. The thought will tell you, but... there can be pain, but start to notice the difference between pain and suffering. This is very, very important. So don't suffer for some time.

The experience in this Maya is never enough in itself to make us suffer. We think, 'This is happening so I'm suffering. That happened so I'm suffering. This happened at work so I'm suffering. This happened, my wife said this so I'm suffering. This happened.' None of that can make us suffer. So that is where you're... so when you're becoming empty, no, then that is where your mind... what your mind is using to make you land back in the 'me'. I know. Third. Yeah, exactly. Because if you try doing the second, no, like say whatever you want, I won't be affected—that's probably the quickest way to get affected. So unless it's a reminder and then that reminder pushes us into God's love or the empty posture, no, positionlessness. Okay. Then let's go. Yeah.

When you see the teachers, do they seem aloof? Yeah. So is that not a position? Say that I don't want to have any construct. Okay, good. Now you also please don't have a construct about me. That's like an invitation to suffering, designed to have construct about us to feed us the construct through having constructs. They can have what they want. But now they have what they want. Shivang has to be like this.

Then that is your position response. You see, now one beautiful thing I heard from some sage, I don't remember who, they said that if you want freedom, you have to give complete freedom. Think what you want about me. Take whatever understanding you have about me to be true. Your construct doesn't become my construct.

They want to have a construct about us, to feed us the construct through having constructs. They can have what they want. But now they have what they want. Shivang has to be like this. Huh. Then that is your position response. You see, now one beautiful thing I heard from some sage—I don't remember who—they said that if you want freedom, you have to give complete freedom. Think what you want about me. Take whatever understanding you have about me to be true. Your construct doesn't become my construct. You see, but the minute you get the checker guy into the picture saying, 'When I become empty, then this, this, this,' you see, that is where the trouble starts. Okay. Become empty and then tell me, then what?

Okay. Now become empty now of everything.

Is that from a place of emptiness?

What?

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So then what happens is that we are used to taking the determination of what is happening from the mind. That is only the checker guy. Don't go to the mind to inform yourself about what is. Don't use your mind to be the source of information about what is. You see, just like the cars are driving on the road, they don't carry information about what is being said in satsang. They don't pretend to also. That is the difference. The mind pretends to. Now, now you went to the wrong place. I saw you just took your chance. Stay here.

That came from where?

You see, that also comes from there. That he's asking me to keep quiet. You see, because we think that thought is the only way to speak. You see, then satsang would not be possible. Satsang would not be possible because who wants to come and hear more thought? We don't know. We're looking for a different texture. That's why we come. Nobody wants to hear a discourse. Well, maybe somebody does, but this is not the place for a discourse. Allow the heart, when it is ready, to use your mouth to speak the words. It doesn't have to even take a detour to the head and then to the mouth. Just be from heart to mouth. We come to meet the guru because we want a glimpse of the true guru, true teacher in the heart, or the Atma. Why do we get a glimpse of that? Because at least the attempt is to not let the person interfere with the Atma when the words are being shared. Now the false custodian of knowledge is Maya's servant. And then Maya said, 'What may I? May the me come is Maya.' Don't draw any conclusion, inference, label, nothing. Like this, even with eyes open, you are antmuki, inward facing. With eyes closed, if you're thinking a lot of thoughts, believing them, identifying, thinking about past and future, wanting desire and aversion, then you're outward facing even though your eyes may be closed.

And there's being empty also, we have to like be completely just... Now where is others? Where is me? Soon.

What others think about you will become as much as you care about what somebody three buildings away is having for lunch. Does it matter? You lose interest in your own thoughts and positions. Others' thoughts and positions are irrelevant, and our judgment about them in any way is very primitive from the mind. So when you drop, you may become a sadhu in a cave or you may become a hugging saint. Which one you'll become, we don't know. You also don't know it. Nobody. Some is going, 'But, but...' The 'but' is how we get caught. There is no value coming after this 'but'; it's only a trap. 'But how will I do my job? But how will I live with my family?' See, empty like that. Allow me to say you don't have to take that position. Empty like that is when you are fertile ground for God to reveal himself to you. The glass is empty. Now, if there was no Atma without the mind and senses, we would be lost. But that is nobody's experience. That's not your experience. Your mind may try to convince you that 'I'm so lost,' but you actually feel quite at home. If somebody is driving a car and suddenly the windshield gets cracked so you can't see anything through it, the rear-view mirror is all broken, so there's no GPS, you see, then that one would feel very lost. But what happens in the human condition when we stop relying on our mind and our senses? We find like a peace which is supernatural. There's a different texture to it.

Dealing with something. Just stand.

So now, whatever you take yourself to be, that will only get in the way of this transformation. That 'I am something' is going to be pride. So we have to remain in an utter humility. It's not me being humble; it is me being nothing. What is the mind version of being empty? 'Am I empty? What happened? What happened? What is she thinking about me? What is she thinking about me? What's happening here? Is it making sense? Is it empty?' More interested in the outcome. More interested in deciphering through the wrong instrument what is happening. You see, like impatient children in the back of the car. 'Are we there yet? I'm empty. Are we there?' Sometimes our spiritual frustration looks like that. 'I'm empty, but what's happening?' Even if you say, 'I'm empty and I don't care what's happening,' it's caring too much about what's happening because you're determining your position with regards to what is. But till you care, it won't go. That's the thing. You see, because that caring will be held on to here. We won't be empty. We'll be a bit like that. 'When will it go? Okay.' You see, now I have some excellent news for all of you. You see, so this part can sound like we are on our own and we have to do this on our own and empty and this and that. You see, but the good news is that if you have faith that God is here, all this is natural. Food is ready, being eaten. You see, but the trick of the mind is it has convinced you that God is 'meh.' See, when you ask the question, 'Suppose if Ram Ji walks into the room, what will be your first reaction?' My first reaction will be, 'I will doubt whether he is really Ram Ji.'

I'm speaking. Suppose it's like undoubtable.

Okay. When he appears, it won't be like a magic trick that somebody can pull off. Huh?

I was wondering, on the contrary, the 'me' thoughts that come to mind... So I was thinking, why don't I doubt my mind? The thoughts that come to my mind, I fully embrace them as if they are true and ready to work it out in the mind. But when God comes, my first action is doubt. So it is exactly 180 degrees opposite how things should happen.

So all of you here, God is here every day. If nobody was looking, what would be your reaction to that? Suppose you heard it on YouTube. That one who's talking is not looking. Nobody around you. You're sitting in your room. Somebody on YouTube said, 'God is here.' Huh? Okay. What has happened? Because we've heard this so often, the mind has built up enough defenses. It prevents us from the... So if I said, 'Fire, fire, run!' 'God is here.' 'Oh, just that.' And yet, and this is my... If I said to you, 'I promise you Krishna will walk in through that door in the next one minute,' if that whole setup was not... So why has the sensory apparency become more important than the heart knowing? That's the point of that experiment, to say if he were sitting in front of you or Sita Ma sitting in front of you. So his presence in our heart is not a lower way of being. It is the highest way of being. Who is he or she? Whichever way you want to relate, who is she? Lord of the universe. You see, now the mind keeps us in a way strained sort of state where it doesn't tell the sages, 'You're lying.' All the sages have told us he lives in our hearts. So neither does it say, 'You all must be liars. You have a secret society of liars. You've decided to just fool all of humanity for some reason by telling us this garbage.' Neither does it become fully skeptical like that, and neither does it jump in fully to the truth of this. Neither the exploration of this truth nor the jumping in in faith. You see? So it is that lukewarmness which keeps us stuck, kind of a mental lethargy, you know, just like a hypnosis. We just become caught up in this stuff rather than what is really here. Who is really here? Many times many of us say that, even I say, when I enter the side of the house I feel like there's something, you know, something. I come to the satsang hall, there's something. No material can create that. No special lighting which can create that. What your reality is and who your reality is is way beyond our mental comprehension. But we should be willing to let go of our mental house of cards. If you allow a teacher to come into your house and blow it away. What is that house? Story of me. Then your true love story with God can begin. Your original design is to be with God. That's why it is the most effortless thing which has been made effortful by conditioning, but actually the most natural way. So your original design is to be with God. So your original design is to be saints, sages, mystics, whatever you want to call it. But if you spend your life not being present to his presence, then will you be? Okay. Now it's another matter if his presence was difficult. But all that is asked of you is don't bother about yourselves. Don't keep your cup full of that which is false. You see? Or if that seems too difficult, keep your cup full with yourself as the side character and he or she as the main protagonist of this movie. That's all that Jnana and Bhakti is. It's not two different things. Anan Buddha Ji said in Manhattan, I heard him say that to be free from all topics of the mind is the path of Jnana. You see, but he said, 'I have seen most get stuck in the topic of being free from all topics of the mind.' That is tricky. So what is he saying? Just everyone wants to be empty, but we get stuck on being empty. 'I am being empty' or 'I want to be empty.' You see? So then he said, 'Okay, if it's difficult, then just make your life about God. Don't be empty, be full of him. Everything. Praise God. I love God.' So even if he lived as if he is holding our hand constantly and with us, that would be it. I don't devalue who he is. How to say? I feel like shaking everyone. Do you know who's here? You know who's here? So just what else is needed?

Father.

Yeah.

I feel I need a shaking.

Do you know who's here?

But really, do we know? We know. What?

Yeah.

But can you all say actually what is the 'but'? We don't feel it. Is it like that? Is that the 'but'? Right now the body is...

But if I only felt it to be true... But your feelings change every day. If you rely on feelings for him, then that's going to change every day. It's going to be a very unstable love. One day feeling like this, one day feeling like that. Today I love God, tomorrow I don't love God. You see, so if you rely on feeling, then that is not going to get us anywhere. What is deeper than a feeling for you? What do you... No, no, no. Like really deeply. You know, not conceptually, not feeling, not perception. Somewhere in the most primal place, what is apparent to us? You see, our problem is moderation. You become too moderate.

What do you mean moderation, Father? It's like, yes, I know, but you know, I think I lost you.

I don't know if everyone else did too. Okay. Okay, you're back. It should be... There's some strange green light, but okay, seems to work.

Mhm. We can see your beard.

What do I mean by moderation? The same question, you know, that how would you be if suddenly you were talking on the Zoom meeting and next instant this phone, computer, whatever you're looking at turned into Jesus? And there hopefully will come a point in our lives where I would not have to use that example of God having to show himself within this phenomenal play for us to accept his full reality right now. Okay. So, what would be a good symptom of us living in that faith? What would your story change into? There would be a letting go.

No, there would be a letting go. I'm just going to turn my camera on. Um, there will be a letting...

If Jesus was holding your hand for the rest of your life, like physically, then what would your story about tomorrow be? Exactly.

The idea of God having to show himself within this phenomenal play for us to accept his full reality. To right now. Okay. So, what would be a good symptom of us living in that faith? What would your story change into? There would be a letting go. No, there would be a letting go. I'm just going to turn my camera on. Um, there would be a letting go. If Jesus was holding your hand for the rest of your life, like physically, then what would your story about tomorrow be?

Exactly. So you would say I woke up and he was still there and then he said should we go for a walk and he took me here, he took me there. It would be about him much more than about us, about me.

Who does this world belong to?

To God.

To God. Now is anything happening in this world that he doesn't know about?

No.

Is there anything happening to you that he doesn't know about?

No.

You see now, he knows about it and still it's happening to you. So that means he must not love you so much.

No. It doesn't mean that he doesn't love me.

Okay. So, what is your feeling? He loves you. You just called Godfather. I couldn't hear you.

I was saying, so what is your feeling then? He loves you. Yeah. No, I'm just letting the present moment or the present situation cloud my...

So he doesn't know about the situation.

He knows.

He knows. And he doesn't care enough to do something about it.

Yes. He cares.

He cares. Okay. And in spite of him knowing and his caring, the situation is still there in our lives because obviously he's helpless. He's written it somewhere. It's all predestined to happen. So he couldn't change it even if he wanted. Right?

I don't know if it's meant to be changed or not. I don't know anything like that.

Yeah. Very good. So who knows?

God.

God knows. God knows and he cares and still we have it. What must that tell us? Whichever construct we put it in, it has to be an auspicious construct. Isn't it? You see, does it sound too airy fairy, too simplistic? I can use some more high-flying language if that helps. He knows everything that's happening to us intimately. You see, that's why it's very important to remember him not as a force field like nature or gravity or something like that, but as someone who is with us and knows us intimately. Where does he find the time for seven billion of us or eight billion of us? You see, he's not constrained by time. It's like the author of the book knows every character and every movement that the character in their book makes. He knows us like that.

Father, what if we still worry? I'm sorry. I need to... what if we still worry from there?

Stop it.

Did you say stop it?

Yes. When you come next week, you come. Yeah. Saturday with you. You see, so as a symptom, if we say that I know this somewhere but I'm still worried, then that is a clear sign that we have to go deeper in our prayer, go deeper in our sadhana, and deepen in our faith. It is only when we sit in that stillness of his quiet presence will his reality become more important to us than what is appearing in Maya. His love for us will only become more and more apparent the more time we spend only with him. Otherwise, this radical faith of just let anything happen in Maya, I don't care as long as he is with me, that will not happen. It'll happen only by being with him because it's infectious. This love is infectious. Tulsidas Ji said what? I'm paraphrasing that satsang is infectious and kusang is infectious. Huh? If we immerse ourselves in kusang, which is we don't even have to go outside for bad company, if we immerse ourselves in just negative thinking in me-me all the time, then that will grow. Anxiety will grow. Trouble will grow. If we immerse ourself in God, the intention to love God, to be with God and to follow his will, then that will grow. Of course, it applies to outer company also, but really it's about our inner. What do we value on the inside? So what to do with worry? Because I'm talking to you and not someone who's new to satsang, I can say stop it.

Someone new, obviously they need the tools to learn how to stop it and what are the ways in which they can bring themselves to stop.

But you have the tools. You have the tools. You have God's name which is such a mighty tool. What a privilege. What a privilege. It's like our friends, they can pick up the phone or just yell if they're in the building and say Ananta, and yes, that's me. In the same way we can say Ram, Jesus, Allah, Krishna, Christ, and he has told us that he hears it, he responds. What a privilege. The problem is we normalize too many of these things, especially in India because all these people on the wall said nam japo, nam japo, you see, so it's become like a thing. But every time you say Ram, he is available to you. And that is when we are feeling distant from him, we need to say his name. It's not that by saying his name, he is distant from us, so he comes to us. You see, ideally we can just sit and love with him in silence. We don't have to do anything at all to have him. What is it? Ram Sukhdas Ji said or Bai said, God is the quote-unquote thing in this universe you can get just by turning towards him. Yeah. He said like that and also he said that we only need to turn towards him and he is ours. Nothing else in the world is like that. We have to do action. We have to exert our intention. We have to do a lot of things. But the highest is available to us if we just turn towards him. Maya continues to be real, but God help me win that. So that's not turning towards him. That's saying that I will live in Maya, ignorance, falsehood, egotism, pride, but then in spite of all of that, without me turning towards him, he should be mine. Are you seeing it like that? Do you belong to God at this moment?

Yes.

I'm using this tone only because you said you want to be shaken.

Yeah. I need that. I also have this big physical pain and I remember you talking about it this year and I know you talked about it before, but I thought it would help to hear you.

Yeah. This is beautiful time. Beautiful time. Easy for me to say, my body is not in as much pain as it was. But even when there was or there is pain, nothing can stop you from being intimate with him. It may seem more difficult. It may seem like attention struggles because attention gravitates towards the pain, but he's so intimately in your heart that nothing can stop you diving into his love. I do wish... at which moment do we normalize God? We make it too complicated, then it becomes just regular. God is here, oh I'll go to satsang, he says God is here. Who said? Somebody said...

I said, Father, when I believe one thought I am in Maya, just like that.

That's it. That's it. You see, but then don't believe the next one and you're out. It is Maya that needs to do the constant hard work. It needs to constantly keep adding things to the narrative, constantly keeps giving you things to worry about. That's why I was saying that if you observe his patterns, it'll give you a theme for the day. Today it is about this. Yes, somebody... what is the theme for the day? She didn't realize you. So it gives us a topic and all this. I'm not speaking from a perch on top. This is from my direct experience every day. Today is about this. Today is about this. Today is about relationship. Today is about pain in the body. Today is about children. Today is about work. Today is about money. Today is about something else. And we have this feeble... we as in I have this feeble fight back saying no, today is about God. You see? And then when we give into the hypnosis of the thought like she said, we start to take this outer world to be so important. Then at the end of the day I say tomorrow another day like this, my life is gone. But something I want to do with all of us which is that I don't know somehow... what happens when I remind you that he's here? Is it just social, like I have to be a little proper inside? I'm just full of joy but outside I have to be shanti like that? Is that what it is? Is it not the best news ever?

Could you please check if the internet connection is the right one because we have some problems on microphone. Thank you. Are we back? Looks like we're back. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. That's very helpful to me.

So, what I'm meaning it to sound like is that we are drowning and I'm saying the lifeboat is here. You see? Now what we are saying is that but I don't see the lifeboat. And I'm saying if you can't see it, then what is our next move? No, I mean you can't see it. You just have to jump in. Yes. Then what is the move? Now on the other hand, say slowly, slowly it has drowned, isn't it? So, if I don't want you to waste another minute, I'll say but he's here. And we are waiting for an apparency where... yes, but these children, some of them ten, twelve years now. I'm saying that we are waiting for an apparency in what way? Huh? And our heart is where in our list of modes of knowledge? What is it telling you now? Okay. So if you leave perception and you leave thought, are you lost? What is there for a moment? Just don't bother with it. I mean, you don't have to go to samadhi, but if you don't bother with it for a moment now, so stay in that comfort. Stay in that comfort until from over there all of this gets revealed. I'm glad you said it's comfortable because then it makes my job easier. Because if you said it's uncomfortable, then I'd just bear the discomfort, you know? But if you're saying it's already comfortable, do not fall for my... stay there.

Something in me just resists it so much. I mean, it might be my mind, but just to... like I'm faking it. I'm pretending. I'm like hyping it up.

I can relate to this. I was a lot like that. So did Krishna pick up the Govardhan Parvat or is it hype? I have spent most of my life thinking it's hype, like deeply believing it's hype. Right and wrong is the belief.

Right and wrong is the belief. Yeah. So how do you... which is that is what is in question. It's like somewhere I don't know if this is heart or it's just my mind, that insistence on...

Where do you go to say this? That'll tell you whether it's heart or mind.

Where I feel the presence.

But where do I... because I know that the one who rushes to speak is usually the... rushes behind the mind is usually in the rush, usually. Okay. So if you slow down, we take away one of the mind's tricks. Okay. Now can you see when you go to what the thought is offering you? Can you see that? What the thought is offering, that's me. What? What often? I love that. Like what is a what? I knew it somewhere. No, no, don't go. Stay there. See, we know that on a camel you will not go to Alaska, right? In the same way, on a thought you will not come to Atma Gyan. No matter how high sounding that thought is. Imagining the camel, I don't know where these examples... no, don't go there. Don't use a thought to determine what is happening. Is there a higher knowledge? Is there a higher knowledge? Is it a sacrifice to go from head to heart? The instruction was to just stay with what seems like a force field, that would have been okay.

But all the other stuff, it feels somewhat fake to me. I mean I'm not denying it but...

As somebody who was an atheist for most of their life, now I can't say I'm too old but um... it's not... it's about what... why you prefer force field than best friend? That's what I'm asking you. Why it's... that's what I'm asking you. You said just to stay with the force field. Yeah, I'll give you consciousness speaking with consciousness. If you feel it like it's a force field, why would you prefer God to be a force field and not your best friend? Seems like me. Does the presence say my, my, my then? That's a very good point. So when we say feels like, seems like, we are actually not saying yes.

It's about why you prefer a force field than a best friend. That's what I'm asking you. You said just to stay with the force field. I'll give you a consciousness speaking with consciousness. If you feel it like it's a force field, why would you prefer God to be a force field and not your best friend? Seems like me. Does the presence say 'my, my, my' then? That's a very good point. So when we say 'feels like' or 'seems like,' we are actually not saying yes. So who's reporting that? Is it the enormity, or is that what the narrator is saying?

Obama went to Nelson Mandela's funeral. You know this story. Now, in South Africa, same things happen like India. So they've got somebody who is doing the sign language of the one who was making the speech—Obama's speech. So Obama is talking over there that Mandela was like this, such a great man. And people in the audience who were looking at the sign language just kept saying that she's doing like this, like this, like that, like that, like that. It seems like there's some repetitive hand movements that seem to have nothing to do with what he's talking about. No. And then they found out that she was not—she was just, you know—and then later she said that she had some medical issue. She's actually fine. But anyway, so what is the point? So the mind is like that interpreter. What does this seem like now? This moment is there or nothing like him. No.

Now, with what instrument will you gauge the size of the presence? Are you lost? Are you not seeing clearly? If you look at the world through the lens of a kaleidoscope, how will it appear? So through the lens of our mind's narrative, it seems very different. Yeah. Go ahead.

You're saying that if I'm feeling good when you say that God is here and then this lovely feeling is coming, that is not the indicator that God is here. If my point was if it is not coming, it's not an indicator that he's not here. So if the negation is meaningless, it doesn't mean the affirmation also has to be. Enjoy the prasad but don't feel like I have darshan only when I get—

Very, very dangerous. That's the only—what is the only safe thought to keep in our mind? Who did you hear about this conceptual spirituality from? So now, I'm willing to hear that from you. I'm not willing to hear this from you. It's like in the Book of Job. If we take gladness or joy from His hand, why would we not take sorrow? When we get good things in life, then we say, 'Oh, God is so kind.' But when we suffer, we feel like, 'Oh no, no, no, this God has turned away from me.' Not that I'm equating myself. I'm just saying that if you can remain concept-free, then come and hear satsang like music. But if you decide that you're going to be concept-free only in satsang, you see, which means that I don't have to do the hard work of meeting concepts which could be the opposite of which I'm tempted to hold on to—but if you're empty through the day, I'll be the last one to complain. Okay, I'll make it simpler for you. Concept-free. Best you. Okay.

Something in me feels like if I can't express, if I don't use my mind as a description of what is happening within, and if I'm asked to just drop it, I don't know what to do next. Concept-free spirituality, which is—

He was saying that if I'm asked to drop what my mental narrative about what is happening to me is, then something resists that. But just five minutes back you said you wanted a concept-free spirituality.

No, I'm saying my description is it's a force field and I'm okay with that. I'm not concept-free in that sense. An accurate description of what is happening within me as I see it. That 'me' is the one observing the presence.

So that one prefers the narrative of the force field. Slowly. So the one that witnesses has a preference for force field versus best friend? Preference or description?

That one has—observe means observe and description. Observe means presence is there, that is observed.

Okay, is what you mean perception or awareness?

What? I didn't get you.

Perception or awareness of the presence? What do you mean by observe?

Perception, yes. I mean, I don't know the difference exactly what you mean.

Okay, so let's first come to that. To perceive is to use sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell. Perception. Now, how do you know about sight? Okay. That which witnesses sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell—is it sight or hearing or taste or touch or smell? You're hearing these words.

Yes. You are not confused about whether you're seeing them.

You see, it is not the sense in itself which is making you clear about it being hearing or sight. Hearing is not saying 'this is not sight.' You are aware that it is hearing.

I can confirm that sight and hearing are known through the same—

Yes. Through the same what?

Same person.

Okay. Person means has some past, future, history, attributes, likes, dislikes. This one has any? No. Nope. What does it have? But right now what just happened? Wait, wait. So that which is aware—let's say, let's use the word aware—of sight, of hearing, of taste, touch, smell, at what distance from you is that?

Yes. What's the relationship between that which is aware of these perceptions and you? I can quickly just say it's the same. But I'm waiting for something. I don't know what I'm waiting for.

Yeah, I'm also waiting for—because we both are saying the same thing mentally. We both know the answer. But what are we recognizing? I don't have an answer. Right. So you're clear that there is an awareness of perception.

Yes.

You see, now how are you clear about that? In what way is that awareness communicating with you? It's okay if I just stay quiet.

Yeah, I could say the rehearsed answer, but another point I wanted to make is what we just went through. I gave a description of—that's why I keep asking, what is this? Give me a description. What is it? How many words you need to describe it fully or even close to accurately, and what will be that benchmark to say it is accurate?

Even that should be dropped. Is it? But without that, there's nothing that can happen in satsang. Without relying on the mind to give a description—without that only everything will happen. A description will never reach the height of what satsang is for. Like the description is that it feels like a force field. Isn't it? And if I were not allowed to say that because it is from the mind, then somewhere it just feels like something.

I had a cousin, you know, probably I repeated the story, he's only one or two years younger than me. Once he came to where we were in Roorkee, all cousins were meeting up. So he said, 'Last week Kapil Dev had come to our village and he bowled a ball and I hit him for a six.' Is he allowed to say it? Is anybody going to buy it? No, it's not. Allowed to distill what is beyond description into description—nobody can take that power away from us. But is it leading us where we want to go?

Feel led at all without that. That's what I mean. I just feel I'm not even met. When you say 'feel,' what you mean is what is within me. For it to reach you, it has to be through a medium of words. And unless that happens, there's no connection. It's just you saying and me listening and nothing meeting.

So Bhagavan used to come to the hall; 90% of the time he would not say anything. Waste of time? Nobody's meeting? You're not meeting him?

But we're trying to meet something. Aren't we in satsang? No. Is it a waste of time that you did? I don't know. How would I know? What I'm saying is that without my description of this, I cannot meet you and you cannot meet me.

Yeah, like let's take a concrete example like what you said about that presence and that is Ram Ji. Now, there's a gap there. Is there a presence?

Yeah.

Is there a gap there on that fact?

Hope not. I hope we're not meaning different things.

Okay. So whose presence is it? Where will we go for that answer? Let's find out. No, these are the critical things to find out. One is: who observes all these perceptions? What is the nature of that? That's the first question. Second question is: whose presence is there? Why is everybody going crazy—presence, presence, presence? Everybody Atma, Atma. Brother Lawrence saying, 'Be in God's presence throughout your life.' No? So let's find out whether they're justifiably—exactly, finding out for that. Without descriptions, it can't happen.

No. Okay. That depends on the type of knowledge this is. If it was 'What is the capital of Gibraltar?' then without communication, not possible. Yes. But this knowledge is not that. Like you said, conceptual knowledge is not—this is kind of perceptual.

That's whose presence is that—that it's not perceptual. I just perceive it as a force field.

Perceive a force field. I mean, I would diffuse out and if I have to really describe—no, no, right now tell then.

There's something bigger. I'm feeling something.

I'm not feeling that thing. Yeah, exactly. I'm on this side, you're on that side. The other times when you like—but this force field I'm not feeling. Not feeling. How do you feel the presence? How do you describe it?

Just like a being, a love. Well, it has its core here. And it's just being, just it's not. It's not relatable to things of nature. Not like gravity, electricity, not like sometimes you touch a light switch and you get a bit of a jolt. Not like that. But something diffused out, would that description fit? No. If I have to paint a picture of it, maybe I'll do something like that. But before, if we leave this aside, what we just did just now where I describe what I'm seeing and you describe what you're seeing—when you do that, isn't that the means by which we meet?

No, we can start our meeting like that. You see, but the meeting has to end at a different place. I just feel left out. Yeah. I don't know how to say it. Can we meet on this one? Saying that maybe our meeting starts with words, but if it ends with words, then that's not the point. What happens afterwards in the next stage? I just hear without trying to get it. Like, is there something beyond perception right now? Is this realm of perceptions all there is right now? Again, I know the answers, the conceptual ones, but I feel that subtle perception that is different that gets added on.

Within the realm of perception, there's a subtle like vibration. Force field seems apt actually. I don't—something like that. Force field—just forget about that. That's not leading you to—if you're just like—just leave that. You see, that is your imagination trying to keep up with Atma knowledge. Just drop it. It's not helping me. Okay. So, that is dropped now. Now is the only perception. All there is is this. What is being perceived right now? Is it like that?

Yeah.

Who said who watches this perception? What is being aware of? The one that is aware of all of this perception—can it be perceived? Then you just said everything is perception. But without that question you asked, perception was—I don't know what it is.

You see, that is your imagination trying to keep up with Atma knowledge. Just drop it. It's not helping me. Okay, so that is dropped now. Now is the only perception. All there is is this. What is being perceived right now? Is it like that?

Yeah.

Who said? Who watches this perception? What is being aware of? The one that is aware of all of this perception—can it be perceived? Then you just said everything is perception. But without that question you asked, perception was... I don't know what it is. I don't know how to suddenly like...

Because the question was asked and suddenly Nirguna also came.

Nirguna, I don't know, but...

I don't know what to say. It's like...

Is there only perception? Like just organically, just this much. Is there only perception? Is there only perception right from seeing or from knowing the right answer? All of us know the right answer. What do you see? What are you aware of? If Nirguna Brahman came and went, it would not be Nirguna Brahman. Everything that comes and goes is in relation to that unreal. The Vedantins have said so. That can't come and go from where? From here.

The recognition does come and go. Right? Okay. So if you don't want to hear God is here, at least we have to know that that which is aware of all of this plays here.

Yeah. Who is that one? Who is that one? No, who... like, what's your relationship with them? Is this like a pesky neighbor? Okay. So, something is witnessing all of this play unfolding. How do we know that fact?

Feels like one thing unperceivable is perceiving and there's another 'I' which is not perceiving. Then you equate the two. It doesn't feel like a... what you say? Feels like some 'if this, then that, then this' calculation. Argument needs time.

Timelessly is the only perception right here. Okay, can you perceive this answer? Can't perceive this answer. That's a struggle. No, otherwise it'd be a simple line: this side Nirguna, this side Saguna. I can see both sides. You see, but you can't perceive this answer because...

Okay. You know, I think it's like when I expect that once you ask the question, something will suddenly become evident and I say, 'That's the answer.' But it's not that. It's like it's always there, so that's why it's missing.

And plus, if you have your eyes on the wrong instrument, you are expecting this to be like Archimedes or something, like somewhere in the intellect the answer will emerge and you will say... but this is not about the intellect. When the question is asked, okay, let's ask the same question in a different way: Who am I? What is the answer we are expecting? Like one day in our intellect it'll be clear: 'I am pure awareness, I am that, I am Nirguna Brahman.' I will just ask myself often enough, 'Who am I? Who am I?' And one day with conviction in my intellect I will know I am that. Is it like that?

It means like I get an answer, but which instrument is not within, I can say...

But the difference... it's this 'me' is which one? You just said 'this with me.' This is what one are you referring to? It's like... you don't have to finish this song in a way, it is true. Somewhere maybe you can trust me to tell you that both ways, either way, you come to the same point.

Both ways as in...

As in to take 'God is here' or to ask yourself who you are. But there is one slight... it's a major difference between the two.

You come to the same point. There are lots of differences in the path, but the outcome is not different.

But in the 'Who am I?' path, I can rely on something I have access to to get me to this point which I don't have access to. Is that...

I don't... once that's... I'm assuming...

Rely on what?

Sorry.

You said you can rely on something. What is that?

Rely on something.

You said you can rely on something. The question is, who is 'Who am I?'

Who am I?

How is that different from 'God is'?

I can start with whatever I'm perceiving and say, 'Where am I in all this? Is it this? Is it that? Am I that? Am I this?' So I start with something I have access to. And in this case...

In this case, I just say 'God is here' and I am like... He can't be here, here, here. Where do you start there? Then this becomes inquiry. This is something... I start with something I have access to and then maybe...

In satsang, you're just left with 'God is here.' I don't tell you where He is, how to turn to Him, how to be with Him. I don't tell you any of that.

You say all that. Yes. But I have not said look for Him here, here. Look for Him here. How to turn there, how to be there also. You know, pause for a minute. So I'm saying that like we have that Bhakti which comes, the feeling which comes when we remember He is physically here with us. When we deepen in our faith, when our inner insight becomes so strong, we will not need the outer apparency to live in that love, that joy, that peace. So I'm saying that the outer will always be a reflection only, you see? And yet it has such a potent effect on us, you see, that it can take us to the inner. But I'm happy whichever way. If you love the inquiry, I love the inquiry also. How to do the inquiry? So you said that it gives you access to that. Okay. So you ask yourself, 'Who am I? Who is this I? Then am I... am I the one saying these words?'

And I really look into it.

Yes. Are you the one?

The words aren't there now and I'm here.

Am I this man? Again, at a distance. Then I close my eyes. I feel a sensation in the chest. Who watches that? Who witnesses that? Any thought we perceive, any sensation, you can just ask, 'Who witnesses that?' Witnesses that is here. That I see the point of your sitting in silence and listening.

What is the point? To allow the question, the answer to form.

Where?

Through observation and also slowly...

So this part is very important, so beautiful. So you say, 'Here I see the point of what we are saying, to sit in silence.' Let's not even call it heart temple for a moment. So we sit in silence. Then if in our intellect the answer comes, 'I am this blank empty space that I see,' then what to do? I see it. Who witnesses that thought? Bhagavan has not said that one day you will come to a thought which will be the answer. He has said to look at every thought and say, 'Who looks at that thought? Who witnesses that?' Then the thought itself will be discarded in that question. So the answer will come in the form of... is anywhere Bhagavan said that after a point there will be a thought that you cannot refute?

I haven't read him, but...

So take my word for it. He's not said that. Okay. This is suppose my contention is true, which is that Bhagavan has never said that one day one thought will come which you will have to accept. They said any thought that comes, ask who witnesses that. Then...

Of course, this is how you are taught it, but somehow ended up making it more free-flowing instead of just...

Free?

Like I just said, 'Is this me? Is this...'

Fair. Fair. Like you said, we have to come to that silence. Yes, silence we come and...

I guess the value of...

Come silence, come for it to go.

For what?

For the silence to go is, I think, that's the observation phase. You're just looking.

Right. And how the answer comes, it sometimes it comes, but from where and...

What is... give me an example of the answer coming. Live or like something I remember.

Something I remember you're supposed to do in the inquiry. If you see a Buddha on the road, kill him. That's the inquiry basically. So the Buddhists also said the same thing. Nisargadatta also said the same thing.

The inquiry also said the same thing. Like say a memory comes up. Thomas Keating said that even if Holy Mother Mary wants to come and talk to you during your contemplation, say, 'I'm sorry deary, I'm a bit busy right now,' which is an adaptation of 'If you see Buddha on the road, kill him.' So you got to the silent...

Yeah, I'll give an example.

Silence doesn't have to be disturbed by any concept, any good. That's why it's valuable then.

But somewhere the answer comes. I'll give an example of that. Like if I have a memory, like say being on a beach in Goa rather, and I say, 'Is this me?' It's not. Then the next question is, 'Is this mine? Did I create it?' And then I look for the one who created it. After a point, it's like it's just nobody's doing it and I don't... it's not so much that nobody's doing it. I can't find anyone doing it. No separate entity doing it.

Okay.

And somewhere...

You found nobody. Who are you again? Silence. I'm just...

You are that silence.

No, I don't have an answer. And I again, 'Who am I?' Who doesn't have an answer? Do you get the drift of what I'm trying to say? Like I don't have an answer, but this is this, and here somewhere it's more free-flowing and also it isn't a leap where I...

The point of the question is that...

It's something revealed to me. It's not something I just...

Yes. What is revealed so far from memory? Again, I say that they're just coming. There's not somebody who's doing these things, thinking or imagining or saying things.

But what is the answer you've got to the question, 'Who am I?' I haven't. But of course, sometimes it feels like that force field also it comes up.

You can forget about that one. Sorry, that's not meant to hurt it. I'm just making sure you don't get... yeah. If any of you have this feeling that there's a sort of force field feeling, it's not like consciousness is not like... huh? Yeah. It's tricky. So one is the peace of the still holy place that we are talking about. The other is... you know the story, one time this girl who was from Germany, she was here. She had this very vibrant expression. So she said, 'Father, Father, I have to talk to you today.' So I said, 'Yes, please tell me what happened.' So she said, 'The inquiry stopped working.' So I said, 'That's not possible. The inquiry has to work.' She said, 'No, it stopped working for me.' So I said, 'Okay, tell me what you mean.' She said, 'Earlier I would just have to ask Who am I? Who am I? and there'd be so much peace and contentment. Now I can keep asking Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? No peace, no contentment.' So that is not the peace hopefully which you are talking about. You see, because this can come and go. The inquiry is not to be done for spiritual goodies in a way. But if your peace is what I feel it is, then that is where we have to stay. Who are you? If we don't know that, then what other report can we have that is valuable? Somebody says it's too cold up here. If I say, 'But are you a giraffe or a rabbit?' and if you say, 'I don't know whether I'm a giraffe or a rabbit,' then I don't know what credence to give to your report of it being too cold because I want to know at what level it's too cold. So at the center of our narrative structure is the 'me.' You see, who is this 'I'? Are you seeing the point? Because if you say, 'I don't know who I am, but I feel, I think for me this is better for me,' but who? All right. If you love this question, then don't leave it. Like in my life, I fell in love with this one question: Who am I? Just don't leave. But not only in satsang, because the mind has many tricks. So if you say, 'Yes, I'm in the inquiry all day,' and then it continues when I'm very happy. But if I'm not liking anything you're talking about, I just feel like I would rather ask myself, 'Who am I?' Who is that one? We talked about this. He said that anyone who truly inquires will never have a problem with love for God. Bhagavan built a temple first before the home. I'll return to that earlier.

Like I think it's an act of love to be true to what is most true in me.

Someone comes to your door, says, 'Show me your ID proof.' I'll say, 'First you tell me who you are.' That's it. So for your testimony to have freedom, it has to be backed up with who you are. Because otherwise the 'I think' is such a word; everybody can think something. What is the power behind that opinion or perspective? It can't be taken from the false to the truth. It has to be just... it feels very right to just completely drop it.

Love to be true to what is most true in me. Someone comes to your door and says, 'Show me your ID proof.' I'll say, 'First you tell me who you are.' That's it. So for your testimony to have freedom, it has to be backed up with who you are. Because otherwise, the 'I think' is such a word; everybody can think something. What is the power behind that opinion or perspective?

It can't be taken from the false to the truth. It has to be just... it feels very... to just completely drop it. This is happening only after the silent transmission stuff you're talking about, when it's only one way you're saying and just receive. I don't know if it's just my mind resisting or something in me.

What else can resist?

That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't know. Something, I think it's deeper.

In all the layers of that you have, what can resist? Just try.

I'll take some time on it and I'll just... but something, it's like sometimes you say that, no, if in your heart you feel that there's something wrong. I feel there's something deeper. It's not just me not having a say. Something just doesn't sit well with me. I want to sit with it more and then I don't know what it is.

Sit well with you about... to abandon myself? I know, I mean in your language that is what you're saying, but it feels scary. I'm exploring.

I don't know. I take time here.

How will we know? That is the main thing. What is the irrefutable source of knowledge?

Spending time on it? I think spending time with the question.

Yes, and not rushing to a...

Absolutely. But so, like this for example, for me to voice what I think was true, it's somewhere very innate to me. I think I can't just discard it. It feels...

Yeah, yes. But what we are asking is: what do we mean by true? What is the irrefutable source of truth?

But that truth you talk of, I have no access to. And for me to abandon what is most true to me seems... I'll spend more time on it. Yeah. Thank you.

It's very good. So, if you take this concept to be true that I have access to some truths which you so far don't have, suppose, then would it be... if you say you are in Shimla and I am in Tokyo and you want to come to Tokyo but you want to feel the weather of Shimla, you are still set. I will say, 'Just drop all your cold clothes, sweater, all of that. You don't need it here. Just take the flight this way. Go to Delhi airport. Take a flight.' What will be the one who lives in Shimla? What will they lose? The Shimlaness. No, they lose their Shimla-ness. It's true. The feeling of being in Shimla, the cold clothes, all of that. You see? So that's the question. That's really the question. Like, of course, it doesn't sit well with us because nobody wants to lose ourselves without having a guarantee of what's there. The whole path is about that. Many times when we are in Satsang, we at least used to hear this report: 'Chop my head off, you know, let it all burn,' all this. And then after a few days when it starts to burn: 'Stop! This is not what I want.' You see, like with you.

I'd like to explore why I don't like this burning. Some like that inward look and to be in contact with it just to... it feels very violent and also something, I don't know what, I don't know what, I just don't know.

Being violent? Take your time. But this is somebody who loves you, then sees, who apparently walked on a similar path, sees a hundred pathways in front of you. When they say, 'No, no, don't waste your time on that. Don't want to waste your time on that,' it is not because of a lack of love or a wanting to force their opinion or way. It is just trying to make it easier for you. So if I push, if I'm like, 'What's happening? What's happening?' then it's just because I feel like something valuable is here and the way to miss it is through this sort of hedging our bets, lukewarm sort of armchair spirituality. That is the intention. It is not out of, 'No, I'm so great, come my way only.' I feel like at least this much all of you would have seen by now, that is not my expression or intention.

I agree, Father. But even this what you just said, it doesn't sit well with me. I have that idea and I would want to sit with it. Why? Without... that is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that you're deceiving me. I'm saying I can't stop doing that. It matters to me somehow. I want to, and there's some moral or ethical or temperamental or something there that is not deeper than just wanting to just speak. It's a disposition. Maybe it's how I was made. I don't know. Or it's this... I don't know it. I don't.

It's okay. I'm just clarifying my intention. I'm not saying you must not sit with it and just go home and don't think about this question. That's not what I'm saying. Later they contemplate, and to get resistance from me on contemplation is... today isn't that. If I want to disagree, I will disagree. Even if I want to agree, I will just... today I will disagree. It's like, it's not that...

I also like... I think that's an act of Bhakti, even if I'm wrong, to say how I see it, to not manipulate that to fit to the right answer.

Very good. Very good to speak openly because I get to know what your perspective about it is. There's no fire, just making it clear that there's no... Hey, when have I said you can't speak? In the so many years, have I ever said, 'No, we've heard enough'?

Yes, I'm sorry about that. You are going, you're hurting me. I'll go now.

No. Okay, tomorrow as we can do after whatever. All right.