When You’re Fully Empty, Your Absence Is God’s Presence - 24th March 2023

Because the thing is that I think that resistance came not from me. It came out—you just—it's like a flashback scheme, let's say. Yes, if you can say it into the field, yeah, that all this traveling and then all the things, yes, it was a kind of avoidance, you know, and yeah.

So who's tracking all these avoidance, resistance, lack of fit, coming out, not coming out? And who's bothered with all of this? Is there an aspect of yourself that wants to be free?

I think yes, sir. Yeah, yes.

So you must lose that. Must lose that also because you said you wanted nothing. Remember? Just now we said we wanted nothing. We wanted nothing, then to want freedom is to want a very big thing. You see, how many people do you know that have got—you see, how many people do you know that have got freedom? Very few. So when we say 'I want nothing' and then in the next breath we say 'I want freedom,' it is going from wanting nothing to wanting something which is very, very rare. And what makes us so special that we should have freedom? What makes us so special that we should have freedom, even that God should reveal himself to us? Any of our spiritual desire—what makes us so great? Nothing does, you see.

So all we can do is to be empty. And if it is Grace, then whatever has to unfold by God's grace can unfold. But when we have an expectation or an outcome, only then can we have things like resistance. If you are not trying to go anywhere, can there be resistance along your path? Here is sitting, it is sitting, and then you see there's a lot of blocks, roadblocks in the way, but you are not going anywhere, you see. So are you happy not to go anywhere, not to get to anything? Be fully empty of all desire, all will, truly satisfied. Hmm? Yes or no? I mean, it doesn't matter because even that can become an outcome. So if you say 'I want to be fully satisfied,' then something will come and say, 'No, I'm not still fully satisfied,' because the mind says, 'What about relationship? What about something?' Believe all that. What makes us so special that we should be fully satisfied? How many fully satisfied people do we know?

Some of you I have met over the years and you can get caught up in this sort of spiritual conditioning and the 'checker guy' which keeps saying, 'Okay, this is happening to me now and this is being revealed and this is being stopped and this is avoiding and this is resisting.' Nobody cares. You have to stop caring about you. Okay? If you're completely unimportant, if it is true that all you want to do is to be empty—and that you really can't do, it's a non-doing doing, you see, to remain empty, it's a no-path path—then if it is true, then all of this is unimportant because it is just showing up, because he's just showing up.

Now what are you going to do with your time? You'll have too much time now on your hands if you don't track what is happening there. It is what is causing this resistance and avoidance and how come you are not free or satisfied. We're all in spirituality, but all of us live as if God is not real, actually. I want to say this to all of us: that we are all in spirituality, but we all don't live as if God is a reality. And therefore, then God and religion—not spirituality—becomes a belief system and not a true matter of faith.

Now what is the difference between belief and faith? Belief is a notion that we pick up so that we can use it to feel better or to become special or to become somebody. Faith is to give up everything for the insight that we have in our heart. You see, it's a huge difference, although it sounds similar. You see, belief is something that we use—'Oh, I believe in God, I believe in my master'—so that it helps you, if you feel it helps you. Faith is that which allows you to sacrifice your head at God's altar because you're willing to take the risk of giving up on everything inwardly. And I'm talking about the inner renunciation, the inner sacrifice, because you have had an insight into God's reality in your own heart, or even that which is aware of God's presence in your heart.

Is this true for all of us or no? You see, so how much faith do we have in that insight, that that is really God? And if God is really living within ourselves, then is this how we would live, with so much concern and so much fear and so much tracking of what's happening to us? Or have we made God into another sensation or perception? What have we actually discovered? That is the key question, right? Have we become just a beautiful room in a house which makes us feel peaceful, or have we really found God? Of course, we claim that we have found that which is beyond even this manifest aspect of God, the manifest aspect, the Nirguna Brahman itself, you see. Now that is the discovery. Do you have faith in your own discovery? You see? And if you have faith in our own discovery, how is it that so many of us are just running around like athletes, you can say, worrying about sensations and perceptions? Who have we found? That is the question. Who have we found?

Another child was asking me the other day that when we refer to God, how is it that, like in some traditions, God is called a personal God, and what is your feeling behind that? So I said that many times we may come to a conclusion that the Absolute or awareness or even beingness is just like a force of nature like gravity, just like we've discovered this force within us but we cannot relate to it, we cannot bow our head down to it, we cannot pray to it, we cannot be in service to it or devoted to it. It is just not true, you see. That does not mean that you're discovering something personal as we define it to be personal, that means individual. But it is not a force of nature like gravity or electricity or magnetism. God is the Supreme intelligence from which all the functioning of this universe sprouts all out of. And therefore we can trust that when we bow down and we pray to God or when we long in our heart, 'Oh God,' our prayer is being heard.

You don't need to do this by ourselves. We don't need to check on our progress. We don't need to push ourselves along the spiritual ladder. We don't need to fix our energies. We don't need to fix any of this. Otherwise, our discovery would be a complete lie. Have we found God or no? You see, that is the question. Have we found God or no? And if we have found God, then what are we doing? It's like we have found the fastest escalator in the world and we're still trying to run. Or we have not found God's presence, or we don't have faith that this is God's presence, you see.

And how to come to God's presence is to be empty to yourself. Die to yourself inwardly. Everything else is just a way to get the self-inquiry answer. And our prayer, our devotional singing, or yogic practices—everything is a way to come to an emptiness so that God's presence can be possibly discovered, recognized. And you recognize that in the palpable vibration of God's light, there is an unbounded being which is recognized beyond perception. All that is needed is your emptiness. And can you start a moment not being empty? Start a moment being full of something. Be full now at one moment. So God is already empty. Now it is completely our prerogative—it is our prerogative to operate as a limited 'me' or to be empty. That is the only prerogative that we have: to take up the false 'me' using whatever pretext. It may sound very true and humble, and the narrative we have, a super true story—none of it is real. Only God's light is reality. And this is moment to moment.

So we have to stop being somebody, anybody, including a spiritual somebody. And that is naturally what you are: a nobody. Not really a nobody that is—not bad news to the ego. It sounded like an insult, but actually it is the greatest gift because you are nobody. The Master's only attempt is to help you come to your nobody-ness.

Yes, just by the habit, maybe it's just by the habit that I identified all those things, you know.

Don't have anything that you want to do for yourself. Don't want anything for yourself. Don't do anything for yourself. Be empty and then life will show you, God will show you how you can serve. And in fact, that service will happen, unfold on its own through you, through your life. And if one day you have to be guided in some particular way, then your heart will also guide you through that. So we can talk about the highest intuitive insight. This is the highest intuitive insight. But if there is somebody there to claim it, it will just become a conversation. So our nobody-ness is the fertile ground in which the recognition can happen. And the recognition is the easy part. It is the nobody-ness which is the seemingly difficult part, is it? Because many of you have grasped at the recognition also to make you a somebody. You have grasped the recognition that 'Now that I have it, now I should do that.' So the question about what do you really want is really helpful. It's really useful. Okay? I feel like we don't have to go in a linear fashion. You can just keep it spontaneous in some sense that will feel like something is coming up for them to see. They should be able to unmute their mics and come up and share. Thank you. It's more of a group conversation rather than a linear discussion.

May I come up, Father?

Yes, come please.

Hey, I really feel like I need to talk to you.

You tell that you wanted to talk to me. Now here we are.

Yes. Now is that what time I told you that my father was okay and I just couldn't talk about that at that time? I don't think he's okay, you know, and I just wanted you to put him in your heart.

Yes. Can you repeat this part too? Somebody's not well? My father.

They take their Max and come up and share. Thank you. It's more of a group conversation rather than a linear discussion.

May I come up, Father? Yes, this company. Hey, I really feel like I need to talk to you. You tell that you wanted to talk to me, now here we are. Yes, now is that what time I told you that my father was okay and I just couldn't talk about that at that time. I don't think he's okay, you know, and I just wanted you to put him in your heart. Yes, can you repeat this part too? Somebody's not well. My father, my father. I see. I feel like he's like really deteriorating and I there is like I don't want to talk, you know, without knowing, but it feels it seems like it's like he has some restricted himself, you know, the way his father mistreated him physically and now it's like going down. I don't know what's going to happen, but I just like want to put it that you put him in your heart because thank you.

Thank you so much to come and put this one here and just ask for blessings or anything, any ignorance that is not being seen. Yes, just asking for help or anything that may need your guidance.

Very good, very good. He first to ask you the same question: what would what do you really want? What would your answer be?

It's very, very suspicious that you ask me this. And I really, I hear you when you say if you want nothing, then also you have to renounce this one that wants to be free. Yeah, and actually some days ago I spoke with Mooji and the first thing I said is I want nothing.

Why do you want nothing? Why do you want nothing?

I don't know.

You want something after you have nothing? No, like you want if we you want to be enlightened, if you want to share satsang, you want to... why do you want nothing?

A few of things come up like but it's it's only so like which one? I want to be very happy, not suffer. Yes, you're saying that none of them are attractive. They don't believe any of that. I see there's like some openness and surrendering it comes very naturally like this is this is it. And something like is very tired of the same thing over and over and suffering all over again. But it's not even the suffering that is like because something was really attractive to suffering also. It's like something really like it's not even me choosing it, not even someone and something.

Yes, yes. Okay, so let's presume that mostly you're quite empty and you don't want, you're not grasping at things, you're not afflicted with desire. Now as you are empty in this way, have you found God?

It's here, no? Even if the mind is still here. Yeah, yeah.

And this 'it' that is here, who is it? What is it?

Has no name just but because it has no name or we can say that every name is it's alone. Does it mean that it is like electricity or gravity, just a force sitting there, or is there an existent being which is limitless within yourselves?

Yes, I see the mind guy fighting against or whatever it was. Whole job with the entire job description by this design for this. Who is this existent unlimited presence being within ourselves? Who is that? Is there such a being? He's gone. What the... I don't want to plot the answer. So there are only two possibilities. The first possibility is that we have not found it. We have not found this. We have been truly sincerely seeking but we have not come to this. So everything now in our lives should be devoted to coming to this discovery before death comes, because death is coming. So before death comes, this discovery should happen. How to devote everything in our life to this? It is very difficult. It's very difficult, you see. It is difficult because without the discovery of God, you have to have that much trust and faith in your Master's words that you're willing to risk everything. All your desires, all the events you want in your life, all the outcomes, just because you trust your Master so much, you have that much faith in your Master. You should be willing to inwardly become empty so that you can come into the darshan of the unlimited being within yourselves. And once you have had the darshan of the unlimited being within yourself, then it is a little easier because you can dedicate your life to the faith that you have in your own insight, your own darshan. Is it? But many times because the temptations of the mind can even be very strong, even then it doesn't seem like a cakewalk. Even then. So if anybody comes to spirituality expecting an easy life, then they can forget about it. It's not an easy life when we accept that the mind will resist with all of its might. And even the Buddha said that one may overcome a thousand armies, but even more difficulties to overcome one's own mind, you see? Right. So we must not accept expect life of ease as we are spiritual. That is just sort of a new age type notion about spirituality. So if it comes, it is God's grace and it is very welcome. But things are difficult then things are difficult. It's all right. That's the test of our faith because there is no point having faith unless we are willing to risk all difficulty. So as your as the light of presence is getting apparent for you, you must now dedicate everything in your life to it. Everything must be in service to God now. Be fully empty. Your self-will, self-desire, anything that you want for yourselves, that is how God will take you in God's service and that is the true spirituality you've gotten.

Hi, can I have a small request for me here? That's been like causing a lot of things that are not true. But sometimes I see that something else into like the story and it's aware of something or into that story or that illusion. And because of ignorance, the pointing that is so simple is like so difficult in that moment. And something is like like trying to, you know, like stay as awareness, but it's like too strong, the ignorance in that moment. And something is like fighting, fighting against that ignorance and I just pray.

I just stop fighting. Stop fighting. And as you said, they want nothing. Yes, very good, very good. My blessings are with you also. I want to tell you that as you want nothing, when you come to the point where you truly want nothing, then the mind will find it very difficult to tempt you, see, into ignorance. The mind's whole design is to pull you out of God's light. You see, God's light is natural to you. It's natural right now. Natural, isn't it? Just as you're empty. And if you can go even a step further, it is in a manner of speaking you realize that even beyond that primordial vibration, you are aware that you are aware without any effort, without having to even do anything with your attention, although naturally it may tend to get withdrawn, you see. Now how to get into ignorance from here? What is the way to get into ignorance? Suppose you were trying to get into ignorance now instead of trying to avoid it, how would you do it?

Do you think exactly?

But just the arising of the thought 'I am something' or 'I want this, I need this, this is good, this is bad,' whatever the thought may be, in its arising have we lost self-recognition? This is very important to see that in the arising of the art, in the mirror arising of it, it is not just perception still. You look now. Did I ask in the broadcast the other day, did I ask whether like do you feel awareness is the same as perception? Yeah, awareness and perception are the same thing like that. Actually, the VR for him that it's impossible to say yes now. So the question literally, but if awareness is not perception, you know, or not just perception, then what is there to awareness which is beyond perception? And please don't make this an academic question, although it sounds very academic and philosophical, it is not at all so. Either we take awareness to be perception with inside, smell, imagination, memory, thoughts, emotions, all these perception, you see, or we recognize that awareness is beyond perception. So I want to ask all of you: what is that awareness which is what is there to awareness which is beyond perception? Yes, the the primordial vibration of presence. Let's include that, you see. Let's include that, not the unperceivable nature of unlimited being. Shall we start there? Maybe you can start there to like you to remind me to go really slowly because I go very fast on this stuff. So let's go really slowly. How many of you experience your presence? Experience the presence? Anyone who doesn't experience questions?

Okay, you can just start speaking whoever is like they don't know what I'm saying. So you can experience the presence. How is it experienced? Anyone wants to volunteer and share?

Bless their Father. Yeah, can you hear me? Yes, yes. How do you experience the presence? Peace, peace, peace. Nobody presents itself, just the presence itself. Not peace, love, joy, which is very good, very natural for you to experience in the presence, but the presence itself. How do you experience civilization?

There is a... I don't understand what do you mean by presence, if you mean something perceivable or you mean...

Ah, this is what I'm going to unravel for you. Is your being perceivable or is it unperceivable? And I know that I've answered this for at least 10 years now, but let's really look at it together today so nobody is left with any confusion about this. So your you can experience the presence of your being, isn't it? The presence of your being. In what ways that presence experienced?

Like a vibration. There's a like a vibration. Okay, openness as a it just feels more open, broader. Yeah, empty. Yes, yes. A constant um yes yeah it's like a constant um Reverb which is there when attention goes out in tasks and in the daily humdrum it's still there, but then it's not perceivable. But when attention comes back and rests in the and there is nothing and the mind is not occupied with anything, it it's it's there and it's there which it's constantly there and it doesn't change no matter what.

Very good. So we'll come to that point about what happens in activities in a moment. For now we're just trying to see if everybody's on the same page about the primordial vibration of the presence of God. Anyone, anyone unfair about this?

Yeah, um I see everything, the mind, this I thought that I believe that is this me or something. So everything is perceived then I am really nothing. Um I don't know what do you mean by the presence of God. Nothing, not even openness or or anything at all. Nothing at all.

Yes, you feel or you think I am I am, huh? I mean I feel I feel the life, the body, the thoughts, the sensation, everything. I can experience everything that I am really nothing at all. Even if there is this either that comes and say, 'Oh my God, I feel like this,' this seal that is just thoughts and sensations like illusion that comes appear in gold. So what is the difference? The I and I am. The difference in the m. What is the difference between I when we say I am nothing, you see, I'm nothing versus I am here? Is there any sort of difference when I ask you: can you stop being? And are you aware? Is there is the other question pointing in in two different ways or the same way?

Same.

Okay, you try to stop being. What do you notice? Okay, just try to follow. Don't worry, don't have to come up with the right answer very fast. Just try to follow as you as you listen. So the first question is: can you stop being? Can you not be?

No. What is noticed for us to confirm that I am? May I say I can notice my presence as a perception? I know, but even in deep sleep something is constant and this is unknowable but it but I know it. Yeah, and so and I know also that I I perceived think I'm distracted and I go through all states and is it may seem like a deduction that I I include that I exist because I perceive, I think, I I deep sleep, I do everything. But actually there is a knowingness of of this presence. Yeah, and I cannot say it is a perception because perception happened in it and and and non-perception also happening if I may say so.

Okay, so let's go really really slowly and really short short answers so that everybody is together in this discovery. Okay, so what show

I think I'm distracted and I go through all states and it may seem like a deduction that I conclude that I exist because I perceive, I think, I deep sleep, I do everything. But actually, there is a knowingness of this presence, yeah. And I cannot say it is a perception because perception happened in it and non-perception also happening, if I may say so.

Okay, so let's go really, really slowly and really short, short answers so that everybody is together in this discovery. Okay? So what shows us that we are awake right now? Is it just that we are able to perceive sight, sound, taste, smell? No. How do you know that you're awake and not asleep? If all sight vanished, sound vanished, taste vanished, touch vanished, smell vanished, would you say you were asleep? No. So how do you know that you're not asleep? Anyone? Anyone here also? Yes.

The knowing that I exist is annoying that I existing is it there's a here, Father, something fills life.

Okay, so if I said to you all you have to do is, like many Masters have said, all we have to do for example if I was to say is to stay with the sense of I am-ness. So this sense of being, would you say that that is impossible? And if it is impossible, then why would somebody as great as that say so? And what would that mean? Okay, I'm going to mute everything. Should I mute everyone and then people used to speak and then come back up? You can unmute yourself. We're really coming to share an answer from your heart, but observe the question first. The question is that if there is nothing to hold on to as far as being is concerned, then the Master's instruction to try and stay with the sense of being—although I don't usually give that instruction, many great Masters have given it and it is a beautiful instruction—then what could they be pointing to and what would the method of staying be? Yes.

Yes, so for me, to stay in the presence would be to not identify with thoughts, to let go of the hypnosis of the thoughts.

Yes, yes. But in that case, what happens is as you let go of the hypnosis of the thoughts, you're just staying with the presence and the absolute. Everything is apparent to you, isn't it? It's not just staying with the presence; you might as well say you're staying with absolute as well, you see. And that is what open and empty is really. But when an instruction is given specifically, if somebody especially says that they are very distracted or they're too enamored by the world, then a Master may tell them: just try and stay with the presence of your being, stay with the sense 'I am.' What is that instruction then?

The presence of being is formless awareness. The presence is even beyond the presence of being. It is beyond being, not being, you see.

So we're coming to that point, but first I want to today make sure that everybody is coming along with me in this insight and we are not just... so the first element is what I have called the tip of the iceberg, you see. That which I have called the primordial vibration. We've called it Om, we've called it I am-ness, we've called it the light in which this whole universe is born. Is that a theoretical construct or is it palpable?

I think I feel it feels for me this pointing which is given is the way to grasp the ungraspable because the effort to stay in the I am and perceive the I am, yeah, is kind of answering your first question because we cannot perceive it, yet it can be witnessed somehow.

Yeah, beautiful. If most of you may remember, and I hope you remember, that many times I called the being on the cusp of the unmanifest and the manifest, you see. I see it is on the cusp of the unmanifest and the manifest. And sometimes I call the palpable part of the being the tip of the iceberg, like the primordial vibration, you see, which in some sense can be tasted, but you cannot really say it has a color, it has a taste, it has a size, it has a quality. And yet, just the primordial vibration, before all the qualities have taken birth, just the primal sensation itself, which is 'I woke up.' We say 'I woke up.' We may not experience the sensation of the body, we may not experience a perception in the world, we may not see the words 'I woke up,' but we recognize the wakefulness because of the presence of this. Yes?

May I just put something in this place? Many times I have the feeling on this point that I compare it with the sense of balance, because we know the movement and we are not conscious that the movement is possible because we have a sense of balance. And when we stop moving, we almost stop living, but still we perceive something very special which is unmoving. There is a similarity; I just wanted to bring it as an echo.

It's a decent metaphor. You can apply it as well at times. Right now, I want us to just meet it without any metaphor or analogy. Just, is there a palpable vibration of your presence? Is this palpable vibration of the presence in the body but also beyond?

No, no, wait, wait. Okay, you will come to the body in a moment. Yes, I... is a question, yeah, that's weird, that's weird on that. First, let's come to the insight into the vibration itself.

Father, when we are not taking any effort, simply we just be and there is no thinking, nothing, then that thing is very palpable. That there is no effort on our part, simply we are just being, so it is very palpable when you are empty, when you are just being. No, there's no effort, that thing is there on our part.

Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly. So we may all say that we have an experience of this vibration in this presence, you see. And yet at the same time, when I ask you, is your being limited or unlimited? All of you will say it is unlimited. It is unlimited. And therefore, because attention itself is limited, you cannot perceive that which is unlimited, you see. So that is why you have an experience of the tip of the iceberg. The presence sort of sends a hook like a bit.

Is it because we got so used to name and form, maybe that's why the being is there so that it is available to us to hold on to in our heart? But what where it comes from or what is not perceivable and yet intuitively apparent is the unlimited nature of this being.

Everyone with me? Everyone with me? And I don't want any intellectualization, just what you're seeing, just like an innocent child.

I think you also called it the toe of God, this... that the toe of God, I think you also called it the Lord.

Yes, yes, like you can hold on to God's toenail in the form of the holy presence, which is available in this way. Is this true for everyone? The limitedness of the unlimited, or the unlimitedness? So if, for example, many will say that I experienced this vibration or presence in my heart, you see, in my heart, although it's not the biological heart or the body, you may say in the heart region I experience such a vibration or a presence, you see. And then if I tell you that okay, now this being whose presence you experience in your heart, is it limited or unlimited? For you to answer, I'll just move. Is it limited or unlimited?

It is not limited. It's limited by itself. It is limited by itself but ever-expanding.

It is limited by itself in the sense that... are you saying that your experience of it may seem limited but your insight into it is actually unlimited? Is this something like what you're saying?

I don't know. I see it is limitation, but its limitation is not like in the world; it is ever-expanding, so we can say it is limitless.

So what is it expanding into?

Itself. It's just expanding.

Okay, so if we take that also to be true, that it's ever-expanding into itself alone, therefore itself itself is the unlimitedness nature of it. No? That which can expand into itself unlimitedly must be unlimited. Yes, it's beautiful. Keep intuitively checking in this way. It's very beautiful. So you're together in this? Yes. So at the same... what is happening? It's a very strange discovery which at the same time you say, 'I can experience it because it's right here,' and at the same time you say, 'But it's unlimited, it's everywhere or nowhere,' you see. So this is the absurdity of the discovery of being. That's why I call it on the cusp. You cannot say it is manifest, you cannot say it is unmanifest, because it is like... I feel what comes close is the metaphor of the tip of the iceberg. It's sort of jutting out, the vibration, out of the pure holiness and the pure innocence of God itself, and it is available to us to hold on to. And what amazing grace is that, you see.

I feel it's somehow it's very easy to confuse the presence with the body sensation. It's still like this kind of problem that I am not true, I cannot really feel it in a pure way, like it is always a little bit confused.

Yes, yes. So when I ask you, can you stop being? Do you find it easy to confuse it with like pain or pleasure or something in the body? No. And yet you can point to that which you cannot stop as the presence of being and say that is like a non-sensational sensation, no? Like a... that's why it's called the primordial vibration, you see. So is it easy to confuse actually? Can you check and tell me again? Just do this with me with the innocence of a child. I say to you: just try to stop being. Don't be for a moment. What do you notice?

I have no choice but I... I have no choice. I am.

Yes, but can you stop being? No, I cannot stop. What is that being which cannot be stopped?

Awareness.

Okay, let's say if it must be even subtler than a vibration, yes? Subtler than the subtle vibration we encounter in the world, you see. You may encounter a very subtle... if you come from the air conditioning, you may go to a room which is a little warmer, and the minute you put your hand out into the other space, you may find the vibration of some heat on your hand and you may find that very subtle. But this subtlety is so much more subtle, like a million times subtler than even that subtle vibration of temperature change. So do you agree? And yet, can we say it is not there? Is it that subtle that it is not palpable? Is it like a pure absence, like awareness would be pure nothingness which is known purely intuitively? Am I losing everyone in this? I feel like I... you can tell me, you can try and make it simpler. These are very subtle grounds, otherwise all this talk of God, awareness, Self, being, all this will just remain conceptual and we will make intellectual conclusions to ourselves and we feel like that is the truth. So I want to... I mean, this is a living experience for all of us.

The word comes that, and it's not necessary, but the only word that keeps coming is essence. I don't... an essence that doesn't just belong here. It's an essence that is pervasive, it's everywhere. It doesn't have a location, it doesn't stay with me, it's not mine. Just essence, yeah.

Yes, this is a good word. Now, is the essence, or the taste of this essence, or the sense of this essence, a complete absence? I don't understand. You could use a complete absence because then you would never call it presence, no? Yes, it's here, it's very, very present. You must contemplate this deeply because we call it presence, and yet pure awareness is a complete nothingness which is known purely intuitively. Then awareness we could never call presence, you see, because it's not the presence; it's a pure absence of all that can be conceptualized or perceived. And yet this being, or the presence of being, we call it a presence. So what is it the presence of? The essence is a beautiful word. I think it's a beautiful word. It is the presence of this essence. What is this essence? This presence is what?

Another life. This presence is the bliss. Is the bliss?

The bliss? No, bliss is like a feeling or joyfulness or much later. What is that... what is in the background? I come to the word spirit because I don't find any other word than spirit there. Yeah, yeah, but this is also...

The essence is a beautiful word. I think it's a beautiful word. It is the presence of this essence. What is this essence? This presence is what? Another life? This presence is the Bliss. The Bliss. No, no, blissism like a feeling or joyfulness or much later. What is that? What is in the background? I can only... this room thing is not going to work out very well, is it? I come to the word spirit because I don't find any other word than spirit there. Yeah, yeah, but this is also intuitive because I don't know how I choose that. Yeah, okay. I just moved everyone through a moment. So spirit is a good word. It is a good word.

So it's very, very beautiful to come to this discovery that being is here, presence is here, Atma is here, spirit is here. Because otherwise, I keep talking about this Satguru presence, the Holy Spirit, and without it being recognized, then it will just become a concept, a notion for us. So when I say you must live under the guidance of this Guru presence, if it only remains conceptual, then it's not going to help us, you see, because we will keep returning to the mind. So, can we take a poll where I just get a sense of how many of you feel that what I'm saying is absolutely clear to you, and how many of you feel that it's a bit up and down, and how many of you feel like no idea what's going on? Yes, none of us to do... let's do this poll. Absolutely clear? Middle somewhere? No idea? Middle. Middle part. Moderation.

So then we must make the question... can I stop being a very close friend? You must make this question a very close friend for ourselves. Because in this, the primordial vibration of being, which you want to rely on as the Holy Spirit within you, the Satguru presence within you, as well as the unlimited nature of the being which takes birth within awareness, which is beyond limited, unlimited, being and not being, the whole iceberg will become apparent to you—the tip of it as well as what is hidden under the surface of perception.

So we must become a little devoted to this question because even the discovery of awareness happens only in the light of the Satguru's presence. So we must resist the temptation to jump into the absolute, because many times we may be conceptually pulling ourselves using some dark empty space or perception, because it is not possible for us to recognize the absolute except in the light of the Guru's light, in the light of the Holy Spirit.

At some point you said that it was a million times more subtle, million times more subtle than even the vibration of easy-to-temperature change. Yes, so you were referring to the awareness?

No, the presence of being is what you said that you experience in your heart. What is that experience?

Yeah, I wouldn't have said that it's a million times more subtle.

You would not have said that?

Than a sensation. What would you have said? It's as tangible as the sensation of the body like that, or...

Well, don't have to worry about the word million. That is not that important. But it's very subtler, isn't it?

You said all right, but it's still the vibration she felt in the heart.

Yes, well, this is where the focus is. Yes, and even to call it vibration is just because we have to use a word. It's not really vibration like that. It's just you run out of words then you just... but why do I feel like I've lost everyone? Speaking about this for quite some time, it's true. But it's okay. It's okay if you have to start fresh like that, let's do that. So maybe I've just been presuming many things and we can just re-look at all of this.

So when I say to you, or when you heard the instruction to stay with the sense 'I am,' did you hear it like Irene was saying earlier? Did you all hear it? Just remain open and empty, don't identify. Is this true like that? So they feel like many of you heard it constructively, like to stay with the sense of being with your attention. None of you heard it... there is attention is used to some extent, right? 'I am' is not recognized with attention, but there is a diversion of the attention which is not used for awareness like exactly.

So when the instruction is given to stay with the sense of being, many times when the Masters have said it—and I'm not a fan of using attention so much, so that's why I don't share that instruction so much—but many of the Masters have referred to it as to place your attention in the subtlest primordial vibration of being. Just in the way that another Master may say you must keep your attention on a mantra, on your breath, or something like that to try and control your attention from going to the mind so much, you see? So it's a method to keep our attention more fixated on that constant vibration rather than going to the thoughts.

It is quite delicate. It is quite delicate because we may stay focused on something unconsciously with a kind of focused attention holding something. And I guess that's why Guruji gave us the invitation to leave, to drop and not to hold. Because when the 'me' wants to hold, he creates a kind of thought in unconsciously, a kind of even sensation. So that is the tricky thing on that point.

Well put. But I would say that if—and this is probably my reference to Maharaja also speaking—that if we feel that we are very distracted and it seems natural for us to somehow give our attention the anchor of the sense of presence, then it is a very beautiful, beautiful practice. And Guruji has also spoken about it. At one point he was advising everyone to spend 20 minutes, 30 minutes every day just holding on to the sense of presence, the sense of being. But you're absolutely right that the invitation to be open and empty and to be in the Unborn is to completely let go of everything, all attempts to keep the attention on anything at all. Absolutely right about that.

So but it's very important to recognize that this palpable being, presence of being, is here. So many times I say we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater because it's a very important discovery that God's presence is tangibly, palpably here.

Yeah, and we see clearly this presence. I mean, this here in... it's not the body sensations. No, there's a real like a vibration that is beyond the body also.

Yes, again, yeah. That's why most of the mantras, they start with Om. So Om is a representation of that vibration which is not just beyond the body, but it is beyond the manifest worlds or the manifest earth.

Father, may I ask? Many times I hear this Om. I hear it clear with my ears. I mean, I don't know if it's my ears, but I can hear it like a song, like a sound. And for a long time I thought that I was imagining or maybe it was something from the neighbors or something.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Many have had this experience that as they go deeper, deeper within, many of you will hear the subtle vibratory sound Om. Many of you may experience it as a light which is very different from the world's light. So yes, it's completely fine as long as we don't get attached to any of the experiences by themselves—the audio and the sight, the visual. We're not attached to any of that. Then we get deeper, deeper, and deeper in the primordial itself which is, again for the want of a better word, both manifest and unmanifest, you see? It's at the cost of it. It is like... who has not come here? The ones who have not come here can come. So if I can... yeah, whoever has not come here. Can you hear me?

Um, yeah. Yes, yes. You can go first, then you can go on. I think this conversation brought more questions than insight here. Yes, more confused than ever. Like one of the things when you were asking about the presence and Adrian said something like just not following thought, and you said, 'But no, that's the absolute.' But it's very beautiful because the presence of your being, the unlimited nature of this presence, as well as that which is beyond being and not being, all of them are apparent to you as you're open and empty.

And then okay, but then also you said something like we shouldn't... is the 'okay' an affirmation of this or is it like a doubt about this? So let's look together at that. No, I see what I see what you're saying, but I think I need to keep asking to like, not... yeah, because you said let's not try to go straight to awareness or something, to the absolute at one point or something like this. Because something... it is interpreted here as it activates the mind, of course. So it's interpreted as, yeah, like we were skipping a step or something. But haven't you always told us to be open and empty?

So in the open and empty, if you feel like, 'Oh, there's no being, it is just the absolute,' then I would question that open and emptiness. No, I would... that's what I'm saying, that don't feel like you can skip over the being because the primordial vibration, its unlimited nature, and the absolute all are apparent to us at the same time. I don't see how we can have just one without the other.

Okay, can I look?

Yeah, please. Okay, so let's be, let's just be fresh, open. Don't worry about any confusion. We will just be open now. Are you here?

Yeah.

Now that 'I am,' this would you say is the absolute absence of everything, or is there a presence?

There is a presence.

Yeah, so that presence is the presence of being. Now where is that presence experienced? I know it is not within the body, but is there a particular center that you could say it is, or how is it experienced?

No. Or if I was to say where does it seem to arise from? Is there a particular area which seems to be at the core of it? No, sometimes I go like this. I don't know.

Like that. That is the common experience with Bhagavan shared with us, that he would say that in the heart—not the physical heart but the spiritual heart—that is the core of where this vibration seems to emanate from, you see? So it is not within the body and yet many... sharing of satsang, you see so many Masters, the hand naturally goes to the heart region. We just feel like there's a very, very pure pulsating core or vibration over there. But that is not as important as long as you can see that it is. So this experience that you have, is it the experience of something manifest or unmanifest?

It's not manifest. And that is another question that came up when you talk about vibration.

Yeah, so when you said that sometimes you feel like something here, what is that?

I don't know what it is. I just go like this.

Yes. Do you experience something there or what is it?

No, I don't know. It's what you call intuitive. I don't know.

So you would say that your being is a purely unlimited nothingness, or is there a subtle 'something else' about it?

I don't know if it's unlimited.

If it is unlimited or limited?

I don't know the reason you just said... you're saying that it's unlimited, but I don't know if it's unlimited.

But then you are saying that you are experiencing it in a manifest way?

No, no, I'm not.

Okay, but isn't that an inference? If I say it's unlimited just because it is giving a clue... no, it is giving a clue to us where to look. So on one hand, if we are able to say that I can't say that it's unlimited, but it's here. Yeah, but anything that is noticed or recognized as limited in a particular unit, we call that manifest, isn't it? Like the unmanifest cannot be localized in any way. Okay, so because there is a 'hereness,' there is an aspect... what is the 'hereness'? How is it experienced?

It's a good question because you asked that before at the beginning and I couldn't say how it is experienced.

Yes. What changes when we wake up? How do you know that you're awake now? Let's leave what changes when we wake up. Is it purely perception? No. So what is that which is independent of perception which shows you that you are awake?

I am.

Yes. What is that 'I am'?

It's I, but I cannot refer to it as something.

Slowly. So that 'I' is there even in sleep state? Is the 'I' there in sleep state?

Question, um, because you asked that before at the beginning and um, and I couldn't say how that—how it is experienced. Yes, what changes when we wake up? How do you know that you're awake now? Let's leave our changes when we wake up. Is it purely perception?

No. So what is that which is independent of perception which shows you that you are awake?

I am.

Yes. What is that I am? It's I, but I cannot refer to it as something.

Slowly. So that I is there even in sleep state. Is it?

The I is there in sleep state. You notice the change from sleep to waking. What is the most primal change that you notice that you could say, 'Ah, even if the world is not there, this is there, and therefore I notice that I am awake and not asleep'? The I is unchanging throughout states—sleep or waking, it doesn't matter. So what is the primal change that happens that we can call waking state came or wakefulness came? How are you awake now?

I'm here.

Yes. How do you know? In what way are you here? Is it body?

No, I know because it is I who is here and that I knows.

Yes. So, so try to—try to link it with the question. That I is always here and that I always knows it's here, whether it is sleep state or waking state. But how do you know that you are awake? Is there a difference in the two questions: how do you know that you are aware versus how do you know that you are awake? It's just one alphabet change, but it's a huge difference in the question.

Um, I don't know what happens during sleep. Yes, but right now, how do you know that you're awake? Suppose the lights went out, all the sound went—at which point would you say you are asleep?

I wouldn't.

Exactly. Because—because what?

Because I wouldn't be conscious.

Yeah. So what is that? Um, how do you know that you are conscious versus aware?

These types of questions, I know that they are, for instance, like they really trigger the mind. Let's not trigger it now. This is important.

No, I'm with you. Can you ask again?

Yes, my dear. You said something very beautiful, and I was hoping you would get to this point. You said, 'Because I am conscious,' you see? And to be conscious is—is qualitatively different from being aware. What is that difference? How do you mean conscious versus aware? Are you using it interchangeably?

These are one of the things that I don't understand. What do you mean? I don't know the difference between aware and conscious, sorry.

Well, you said very naturally that you are conscious. Yes. Could you have also said, 'Because I'm aware'?

Yeah, I know I'm awake because I'm aware.

Okay, no, it's—we're getting there. We're getting there. It's very good. So what—what is the distinction, qualitative as it may be? It's a very beautiful discovery. So you say this Consciousness is my being. Yes. Consciousness, joking Consciousness is—that's why the teachers have said, no, that even God takes birth within myself. There has to be a relationship with the world that's in there. We will come to that. We come to that little world. What is this consciousness?

Okay, sorry, I don't want to interrupt you guys. You guys finish the conversation or I'll jump in later. Go ahead. What did you say, Father?

I was saying that we'll come to the connection or the relationship to Consciousness in the world later, at a later point. Let's—okay, first you're—you're discovering, unraveling something very beautiful, which came out to feel very naturally because he said, 'I'm conscious.' Okay, this is not the same as saying, 'I am aware.' So what—what is that determining distinction?

Yeah, I understand. Yeah, um, and that consciousness is the only being, the true being, the Father. The question still remains: why—why not what Adrian said about just being open and empty? Why not? Is that skipping a step? Because I—that's how I understood it.

Does it all mean that I will not go on for years about being an opener—being open and empty? If I felt like that was skipping a step, I only meant that as you open and empty, it is impossible that we only recognize awareness and not consciousness. Because if I'm open and empty, yeah, are you aware that you are conscious as well? Or your being is here, your presence is here? Okay, yes, yes. And would you say that even that being is not the most primal? Like the awareness is independent even of this being or consciousness? Or if I was to push a little further and say, if I was to force you to answer, which one of these rest on the other and which is independent? Which one does—I lost—which one—which one rests—rests on the earth or the other is the substratum for which one? And which one is independent of the presence or absence of which one?

Yeah, Consciousness comes after.

And you see that intuitively. You know that without awareness there can be no consciousness. Yes. Without Consciousness, you are still aware. So awareness is an independent of being and not being. But in the waking state, as you open and empty, you can never see that, 'Oh, I—I recognize awareness,' with what? Consciousness. That is just not possible. Oh, okay, okay. This is what I was saying. Okay, easiest to be. Yes, because many times I have heard you or—or guruji or others talk about like, 'Don't—don't try to go straight to the absolute' or something like this. And—and there are moments in contemplation without you being there where I can't tell the difference or—

Yeah, it's good to see this because that is just so that you avoid a mind trick or trying to create a visualization of some limbo-type dark empty space and time to get you to conclude that that is the awareness, which is—which is um, just basically a visualization. Just because you said it is beautiful when you say, 'Because I am conscious,' and here I—I miss—I—I kind of need a more—a bit more clarification. What is happening? It's to me that I'm saying I am conscious because to me, if I—I need to put it in—in to formulate it, I'm doing what we asked—you asked us to do. I'm holding myself, even if it's—I'm closed eyes then and nothing happens. I'm aware that I am here. I am kind of holding myself consciously. This is the happening of—of becoming conscious. Is it right?

In a sense, the holding—yeah, holding is a very strong word, but yeah, yeah. Just what shows you that? What do you recognize? What do you notice on the basis of which you can say that I am awake? Even if you were in a turiya state of meditation where all your senses were reporting nothing, in the deepest meditative state, yeah, even the body sensation is not experienced, we can still notice that I am awake. Yes, I am conscious, you see? So what is that wakefulness or consciousness as opposed to that I which is independent of even turiya state or sleep state? It is there and unchanged, untouched no matter what state experience you're having, you see? So what is that conscious? 'I am conscious, I am awake.' Otherwise nobody would value such a great meditator, you know? It's just like, 'Oh, you just went to sleep.' I say, 'No, no, no, the world vanished.' Is it the world vanished? But I was still awake, you see? All sensations, even breath, funny, but I was still awake. You call that the greatest meditator in some sense, you see? What is so great about that? Because Consciousness is still there, you see? What is that consciousness? That is the exploration.

Doing something wrong or something because I feel like Mindy, yeah, yes.

Okay, you must not rush at all, my dear. What happens in your case that if you feel that you—you're not getting something or something is this thing, you—you try to rush to make sure you have it because maybe some insecurity or something may be there about spirituality. So just become fully innocent like a child for us and don't try to get the answer very quickly because this exploration is very beautiful, actually. The experience is very beautiful. But I have sense that what happens is that you don't want to explore because it's—it's a bit scary. You want to come to the answer fast. Is it like this or what is—what is happening for you? One minute.

So when we were—when I was having that conversation with Georgie, were you able to follow? No? Okay, why is that? I was like, thank you, peace, trying to be not thinking. Give me one moment. My daughter is calling repeatedly, so I'll have to think—I'll just be back, everyone. My daughter seems to be unwell, so I'll just check on her.