When Does a Concept Become Wisdom? - 13th February 2026

So let's say that in the play of God's will, all of this is happening. The entire process is happening. But in the first part of the process, there seems to be some agency, some presence with myself, and I follow that agency to repeat the name of God or to do the self-inquiry. Now if you were to apply it to the self-inquiry, 'Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?' That is not the right way to do self-inquiry. But suppose you say, 'Who am I?' Done. Done. My practice for 20 minutes is done. I'm going. So suppose we do this for years. And then after 50 years somebody says, 'But I have been doing who am I for 50 years every day regularly. Why am I not coming to self-realization, self-recognition?' You see, what would you say? Like you're asking the question, but you're not waiting for the answer. Isn't it the same way with invoking God's name? You're taking His name, but you're not waiting. You're not listening to Him at all. You're just not allowing Him to take over the conversation ever.

So, what is focus prayer? Focus prayer is when we know that for this time it's only about God. So usually that eating happens only during the focus prayer time, at least initially. So taking out that time specifically for focus prayer is therefore helpful. So now we allow ourselves to listen. Now it may feel like nothing is happening, but you just wait. That waiting is different.

What if my mind is going crazy?

If it's going crazy, you return to the name.

Yes. This is what I do.

Yes. So if it's going crazy, it means that it seems to be strong that the thoughts are coming. 'Uh, what do I reply to this one? Something, something.'

It is more like stupid crazy stuff. No meaning. Like it's like I want to attack everyone or something. This is from childhood. Yes. Wild.

Okay. So let's, in faith in God, let's presume that we've done the cooking part. Now you're eating. So close your eyes and just wait and then tell me what is happening. You can say the thoughts coming.

Yes. If thought is coming and it's live and you can let it go.

Then that's fine. You just wait. If a thought becomes repetitive—

It does sometimes.

You see, then you can go back to your prayer. So sometimes just one... Like in my case, I would just say Ram. But if the thoughts are persistent and they seem strong, then I may say it the full seven times: Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram. And if they still continue to be strong, then I would do the full ads. You see? So maybe if they continue to be strong, I do the full ads with breath. So you do the full ads in that way. And we leave the... So if you return back to the cooking part, when to leave the cooking part? Where it feels like we are allowed, where the silence seems simple.

It is easy for me to see that if it happens, but it's not happening often. It becomes very silent and empty, but not often.

Yes. And do you feel like that's linked to the fact that you're not taking out time for focus prayer?

Probably. I feel it could be related with that.

Yes. Because to be in day-to-day activity and to fall into stillness is after a lot of exercising this muscle. So, so that's why focus prayer is very important. Initially, where we allow ourselves only God at that time, no other distraction, no other activity, at least for a few minutes. And if you can do two to four hours, then that would be really nice. It's not so difficult. At least if you look at it as two hours, then out of 16 hours of waking time, two hours—one hour and one hour—it's not that difficult. Not that difficult when we remember that it is the most important project of our life. When we feel like this work can be done after all other work is done, then it may not seem that easy. So, sorry, I'm going zigzagging a bit.

But in the eating, then what happens is we wait in silence and many times nothing may happen and you try to remain in silence using the prayer. But sometimes we find that effortlessly our soul is pulled into the heart. So earlier where it seemed like a slight effort to keep ourselves empty, now it would be effort to try and come out of it. Notice this distinction, all of you. Like how initially when you want to sit in silence, or if you were just following open and empty, you would feel like you have to try and be open and empty and you have to actively let go of thoughts. So you're sort of exerting a weight downwards, you see, to sit in silence. Then after that pulling in has happened, how do you know that you're pulled in? That it's effortless. But if you want to return to the mind, if you want to return to the world, then it seems like you have to exert a tiny snap. A tiny snap to come out of it. Also moving the body is not easy if you really...

Also moving the body. Yes. Also moving the body happens especially when I'm listening to the satsang with you, attending the satsang.

Yeah. That's good. So, so both modes of eating are good. Which is, one is the active eating where we are actively remaining in silence using the tools that we have. Second is where God is active and we are passive, you see. So He's actively working on us and we are just passively witnessing. So initially it may seem like the world is present, my body is present, my breath is present even when we actively recollected in this way. But as that deepens, you will notice that there comes a stage where the world itself seems to be absent. And it's all a spectrum. So there may be the world is absent but the body sensations may still be there. Body sensations may go absent. Breath may still be there. Then breath may become absent. But the sense of me, that separate me-ness, may still be there. So as long as me remains and the world is absent, that is called Savikalpa Samadhi. And when there comes a point where the 'me' also we can't place at all, there is nothing except that I am aware—not as a concept, but as a recognition—everything else dissolves and that is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi. And all of these are a deepening of our love relationship with God, a deepening of our insight about the truth.

That is why to allow space for God to take over, because He will not do it without our consent, is very important. So what we've been calling eating, let's call it the beginning of our giving consent for Him to take over. So initially we are actively pursuing the silence and He's witnessing, and then He is actively pulling us into silence and we are just witnessing. You see that for most of us it is very difficult to actively pursue the silence without some cooking. First cooking in the form of whatever spiritual practice has been given to us.

What is heart knowledge? Why is this place called the Atma Gyan Kendra? Translated, it means the center for Self-knowledge, capital S, or knowledge of the Holy Spirit, because that is when our spiritual project really begins in its sincerity, in its momentum. The spirit starts to be tasted, starts to take over. And the sages have shown us the highest intention with which we do the practice of contemplative prayer, of Advaita sadhana. The highest intention is not even that I get a place at His feet, it's not even that something happens and my life becomes at peace, but the highest intention is that I offer my heart to Him unconditionally and fully with full consent so that He may rest in it. Not something for myself, but something for Him. Which sounds like an absurdly ludicrous thing to say, like why would God need rest? But it is the nature of love, and because we have to deal with our capacity to love. In our capacity to love, the highest unconditional love is to not want anything from the beloved but just to offer ourselves fully. You see, the good thing is that with God we can apply the same principles of love that we are well aware of.

Huh? And Father, to learn these principles then I feel like the Guru comes and that we can practice that in this way and then that becomes then possible inside also, no, isn't it?

Yes. As long as the teacher makes sure that he or she is constantly pointing to the true teacher within the disciple's heart, and he's coming or she is coming from the true teacher within their heart and the expression is being an instrument to that, then that love is a replica of our love relationship with God. You see, and it gives a taste of that unconditional love which then we find truly by being with the presence of the Atma within. So we are cooking ourselves in the ingredients of love, humility, patience, faith. And it is in this eating of this meal that our insides are transformed.

When does a concept become knowledge?

Ah, good point. So one route that a concept can take is the route of belief, and it gets stored in our belief system and we call that knowledge. You see, so let me use another word which is popular. When does a concept become wisdom? So if you hear a concept... One of my favorite concepts is that God prays in our heart. God prays in our heart. So if you just believe God prays in your heart, don't you know God prays in your heart? God prays in your heart. Who prays? God prays in your heart. You see like that, and you can maybe even pick up additional concepts around that and be able to have a full debate about it. You see, but has that concept become wisdom? But you can replicate that doubtless state by repeating that concept over and over where it becomes like a strong belief. And many times in religion, the conviction becomes a trap instead of the doorway to a true meeting. Like religious concepts sometimes can, when relied just on belief, can become a trap rather than a doorway to a true realization of what is being shared. So one simple thing is if somebody says, 'God prays in your heart.'

You see, but has that concept become wisdom? But you can replicate that doubtless state by repeating that concept over and over where it becomes like a strong belief. And many times in religion, the conviction becomes a trap instead of the doorway to a true meeting. Like religious concepts sometimes, when relied just on belief, can become a trap rather than a doorway to a true realization of what is being shared. So one simple thing is if somebody says, "God prays in your heart." You say to someone, "God prays in your heart," and they say, "How do you know this?" You see? Then you say that, "Oh, it just appeared to me in my mind, then I sounded very cool so I just picked it up." Will that have credibility? No. If you say that, "I have seen this for a fact," you see, that has credibility. Now, with spiritual concepts, how do you see them for a fact? This is unfair. No, you say unfair because you say like you should say to me that I say that when you enter the temple of God, then you have to leave your perceptual knowledge, conceptual knowledge outside. The mind is not a participant in that transformation that happens in the heart temple. And sometimes when I want to be a bit stronger, I may say the bedroom of God. You see, so the mind is not privy to that conversation that happens in the secret chamber. You see, so then how will we know that He prays in our heart?

Yes. Yes. But suppose He has revealed in the heart, but the mind has no access to this. It is when something is revealed, minds can grab it at that.

Ah, good, good point. So I want to tell you something crazy. Okay. When you come to the Atma, the spirit, the spirit is never hiding anything from us. You see, it is always telling us everything. I know as much as the mind cannot fathom this. Always telling us everything. We know everything in our heart at that point. You see, but why are we not able to talk about it? See, why do you see all the beautiful sages, teachers, they seem to be focused on one type of spirituality, their own type of spirituality? They should be able to tell us about every branch of spirituality, every type of spirituality. So like if you look at Anandamayi Ma, she is more known as a bhakta although she could talk about Jnana. Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi is more known as a Jnani although he could talk about Bhakti. So and each of them have their own unique expression. Nisargadatta Maharaj would say, "Stay with the sense I am." So what happens is that although the truth is revealed in the heart fully, God's will determines what that instrument will be able to express and convey. You see, so the articulation of that, the ability to put it conceptually, is then God's will that determines that what will appear on the surface of this one, you see, to be able to express. And He does it so beautifully in the way that in that expression, based on their temperament, all of these things, so that most can be helped by that, you see, or whatever. I can't presume to know how God determines these things, but you will find that some, their life becomes thematic in some way, although it may be broadly thematic, like a theme. You see, like if you ask people, "What was Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi all about?" then most of us will say he was like about self-inquiry. You see, what is the method? Self-inquiry. What was Chaitanya Mahaprabhu all about? He was about chanting God's name. What was Saint Teresa of Avila all about? It was about contemplative prayer.

So how, although the truth is revealed in its entirety in the heart, how God makes His instruments thematic in these ways is based on what comes up as expressible for them in their outer expression. Isn't that so beautiful? That the truth is universal and it's known in the heart to its fullest extent, and yet most sages for most questions will say, "I don't know." You see, what if you were to ask them to expand on that "I don't know"? They would say, "In my heart I know, you see, but I cannot really find the words to express this at least as yet." So a short version of that is, "I don't know." I don't know in the compartments which I can give you access to. Yeah. I don't know in the compartments of what my mind is thinking or my mouth can speak. I don't know in those compartments because He's not translated it into that. That process has not happened here. So the easier way to just say it is, "I don't know." So and then that can seem strange because how can that who has come to universal truth say, "I don't know"? Are they trying to avoid answering it? It's not possible. So that's how it works. Only God Himself can express the whole truths in every different aspect possible. There is no sage who has given, and who He has given that authority to, to talk authoritatively on every single type of spiritual path. And that is according to His will as He knows best what to do.

So what heart knowledge comes into language to be expressed by the instrument is just the process of continuing grace, not a process that we can determine, you see. And it is organic where you start to get like here what happens—and I'm not at all comparing myself with these sages—but whatever little experience I have is that here what happens is that something starts to sprout up. Like I want to say something more about this thing, you know, but I don't know what to say yet. You see, some inarticulation starts and then over a period of weeks, months, years, then that gets more and more crystallized. He offers more and more for it to be expressed in words. But only now am I learning a little bit how to contemplate. Even that is, you know, slowly. I don't even know if I can say that actually, but I feel like all I'd known how to like... see, for example, you would say something like, "Arcs of universes come and go in you."

And you know you're untouched.

You are the one from the Ashtavakra Gita. You are the boundless ocean for God, and the arcs of the universes come and go within you. And this is the description of the Self which is God itself.

You know when you said that, Father, I was just looking at how my mind may... so when you said something like that, for days it would play out here, but I would keep waiting for something to come like fit, like an insight would come. Sorry, somebody's clicking to get my attention. See if there's something in the chat. Thank you. I would keep seeing, so not like I would keep seeing for it to come and fit as an insight in my head. But the insights are so subtle, I can't place it anywhere.

It's very good. Yeah, that's very good. No, because if you could place it, then it's gone. Yeah, you need to find a new instruction. But that's the only... so basically our life is just frames looking for fitting. No, like our grown-up lives, let's say when we lost the childlike innocence and wonder, our grown-up lives mean we know that we have enough of our frames, so we think we know a lot. So we carry our frames around and then we try and squeeze everything into that frame. Thank you. So it's working. Thank you. So what then happens is that if I think I know about Advaita Vedanta, then I'll carry the Advaita Vedanta frame everywhere. Whatever you may say, I will force that into the Advaita Vedanta frame. Just force because I know this, you see, and I think now I have, I know the secret of the universe. You see? Or if I think I know Bhakti, then with everything I force it into the Bhakti frame. Or if I think I know Zen—then which it is not Zen then if you know Zen—but then you try to force everything into the Zen frame. Like that, we carry our frames around, you see. So when we are listening, we are constantly looking for which frame can I put this into, which frame of understanding.

Okay, so I was calling this like putting the fresh pickle in the old pickle jar, but then that becomes old pickle. I don't know if it works like that, but it seems like that. We don't allow any fresh knowledge to sprout because we already have the jars to capture everything that comes our way. So we force it into those conceptual frameworks because what happens? Fresh knowledge is scary. Fresh knowledge is scary. Somebody says, "It's not the arcs of the universe don't come and go inside of you. It is you that come and go inside..." stupid thing. "It's you that come and go inside the arcs of the universe." And at some level, it is met... something new which seems to contradict our concepts initially is met with resistance, which is like, "I don't want to look at it." Then for those who are mature in spirituality, they become comfortable with holding opposites in the intellect. Become comfortable with holding opposites in the intellect because if you try to resolve every opposite which seems true, you will spend your whole time doing that. Your whole life can easily go in resolving. Is it like this or is it like that? Is it like this or is it like that?

So we will not drop into the heart unless we lose the addiction to resolve the opposite. We feel like resolution of an opposite into a position gives us a lot of relief, gives us a lot of knowledge. You see, but actually it is a refusal to fall into the heart, a refusal to meet the truth. So is it like this or is it like that? Is it like this or is it like that? Now how many of these do you think that are there to resolve in the world? Gazillions. You can spend many lifetimes just trying to resolve these things. You see? So then what happens is because we realize it's an impossible project, everybody picks their favorite set of concepts and makes positions about them and says, "This is how it is. This is how it is." And then like anybody comes and says, "Oh, actually, do you want to explore whether it is like..." "No, no, I'm fine, leave me alone." "Do you feel like there's something wrong with..." "No, you don't go there." You see? Why? Because it's scary. You see, it's a lot of work to weed out the things which we don't want, keep the stuff that we want, and those positions that make up our entire personality. And we don't want anything entering and shaking us up. "Don't talk to me about it."

So I said to someone that instead of this, which she was finding very valuable, I said, "Why don't you take the name of God?" And she told me—it's not a satsang member and it's possible that all of you tell me also inside you—that she said, "Just shut up. Just shut up. I don't want to like... don't put this new thing now. I know that this is worthwhile activity. Don't tell me to take God's name." That is a non-satsang environment. So we feel very threatened when somebody suggests a new way of looking at something or a new way of life. Like God forbid if somebody suggests a new way of life anyway. So once you become comfortable with like these opposites don't bother you anymore. See, and the love for God is very helpful in that. If you love God, then let anything happen in the mind. Why are you so busy enjoying the love in your heart that you're not trying to resolve, "Is it like this? Is it like that? Is it this? Is this better? Is this worse? Is this right? Is this wrong? Is this you?"

So these are the after-effects of eating the forbidden apple. Good or bad, right or wrong? Good or bad? Right or wrong? Is it like this? Is it like that? So what should I do? Should I do this? Should I not do? All of this is the same thing. So to just let that go and to allow life to unfold, to reveal itself, is to give ourselves the opportunity to live in love. To give the opportunity for ourselves to live in surrender. The opportunity for us to meet the stillness which I'm talking about where the magic happens. Magic being that which is not a natural phenomena. It's godly in nature, holy as we call it. Now in our mental obsession, we don't meet any holiness. Okay. So if I say, "What is holy?" you will give me a definition of holy. I say, "Have you met this holiness?" Then we scamper a bit. You see? So the posing of a belief as true knowledge gets in the way of that possibly developing into wisdom.

In surrender, the opportunity for us to meet the stillness which I'm talking about is where the magic happens. Magic being that which is not a natural phenomena. It's godly in nature, holy as we call it. Now, in our mental obsession, we don't meet any holiness. Okay. So if I say, 'What is holy?' you will give me a definition of holy. I say, 'Have you met this holiness?' Then we scamper a bit, you see? So the posing of a belief as true knowledge gets in the way of that possibly developing into wisdom. Therefore, a concept placed in the heart can go either way, isn't it? It can just remain at a surface layer of conceptual knowledge, but if deeply contemplated, it can become a living insight that can transform your life.

So this is like Atma Sadhana, or what the Christians may call the Lectio Divina, where the concepts are first read, they are mulled over, they are squeezed. This is taken out, which is like the cooking process, you see. Spiritual concepts are squeezed in our heart and then we say a prayer: that this is beyond our ability to understand, only God can help us through this process. 'Please help, Holy Father, please help this process of unfolding.' And then we rest in the heart in silence. So, same cooking and eating. See, all of spirituality is that cooking and eating. Asking actively, 'Who am I?' Letting go of thoughts. Cooking and then just listening in silence. Not listening through these physical ears. Listening in the heart. Receptivity in the heart.

Yeah, I just want to say one last thing before you ask. Is there a shortcut out of this? Is there a shortcut? It sounds like too much patience is needed, maybe many lifetimes are needed, too much humility is needed; I have hardly anything ever to show for it. You see, so it sounds like too difficult a project. Is there a shortcut? No, there is no shortcut in our hands. In God, every shortcut is in His hand. He can take the gravest murderers and make them into saints in one finger snap. We have some examples in our Indian history. But it is not in our hand. We cannot try and bypass this process. You see, so in spirituality we are often accused of spiritual bypassing. So now, we cannot do this spiritual bypassing. There is no bypassing the spiritual process.

I don't know. So just to force that analogy, what is spiritual bypassing? It is when we refuse to meet what is showing up in our lives by applying a spiritual concept forcefully. 'No, no, I am the Self.' Anger is coming very clearly, irritation is happening, and you are just like, 'No, I am the Self, no, I'm the Self.' Refusing and resisting through spiritual conceptualization is the term spiritual bypassing. So then, to try and subvert the spiritual process, the holiest of holy processes, mentally—then we should call that mental bypassing. That which is spirituality, that which is a gift of the grace of spirit, when we try to mentally subvert that, then we are doing mental bypassing.

Father, when you said all is known in the heart, of course it's not about the information, but Father, can you talk more? What is known? What do you mean by all is known?

This is a good illustration. This is a good illustration of that. Like, if you were to be more forceful in asking that question, you could be saying, or maybe you want to say, 'How do you know that all is known? Can you tell me the capital of Timbuktu or something like that?' I don't know the capital. So how do I know that all is known? Because this is known in the heart and He has given the words to express it like that. How can I prove it to you that all is known in the heart? I can't. How can I prove it to you, before you see it for yourself, that God prays in your heart? I can't. How can I prove to you that anything that I am, before you see it for yourself? I can't. How can I prove to you that God is the source of love, beauty, truth? Until you see it for yourself, I can't. You see?

So now, what is the intention behind saying something like that, that all is known already, always, in the heart? See, the hope is that something will inspire you and you catch on to that, and then that becomes something that you want to see the truth of. Okay. And you realize the mental and perceptual incapacity to see the truth of that, and that leads you, like a Zen koan leads you, to something deeper than the intellect where the truth of that can be found. Now the good news is—well, it may sound like good news in the heart but bad news for the mind—is that we cannot use this as a superpower. You see? 'The all is known in the heart, ask me, ask me anything. What's going to happen in the stock market tomorrow?' You see, this I can tell you: it's closed. But otherwise you can't say, you see, because He doesn't want to. There are many examples in India, in our history, where some sages were able to predict things, predict the future, predict all kinds of things, because He wanted that expression to be able to express in this way.

See, what is clear in my heart is that for the one who knows the Self, nothing in the universe is hidden from them. Now, how to prove this to you? I can't. And the idea is not for anything but for you to get inspired to stay with God's presence in your heart.

What would be the good way to say the opposite of cooking and eating?

Vomiting.

Ah, good. Something like that. So, what would they say? So vomiting would be the eating opposite, and the cooking opposite would be memory?

Huh? Memorizing?

No, in the same reference.

Something... so I'm just saying that when we—we'll find a good metaphor—but when we engage in the 'me, me, me, me, me,' it is the opposite process of what we just spoke about. When we engage in attachments to Maya, when we engage in purely worldly pursuits, when we engage in selfish pursuits, loveless pursuits, then that is the opposite of this process that we spoke about.

Listening is putting attention somewhere.

Listening is putting attention somewhere. Listening is putting attention in a way like if you actively want to listen to me and there's other sounds happening, then you may say, 'I'm putting my attention towards him so that I can really listen.' Otherwise, the natural process of just hearing, you see, is that attention just naturally spreads. And you see, at the other end of attention is our consciousness. So it brings to our consciousness whatever needs to be perceived.

So do you mean specifically, when you said being empty and there's no bypass in that listening? Yes, that's what I said. It's not the audio listening. It's not the hearing.

Attention, where to put it?

I see. I see. That's a good question. You can rest it, like practical advice, to rest it in the heart, to rest it inward-facing. Just be receptive to what is showing up inside of us in that way.

You could... like thoughts can come in, holy-grained, in love.

Yes.

That's what I'm asking.

So I'm putting attention in the wrong place or...

Yeah.

So remember that to fight with thoughts with the tool of attention is a very difficult process. To not fall for thoughts with the tool of belief is the easier path. Huh? ATM.

No, I know. But belief is also... I can't tell when I'm believing and not. It's nothing perceptual that can tell me whether I'm believing or not, nor conceptual, I guess.

Yes. But you know.

I don't know.

Okay. So try, wait for the thought to come, just let it go. And the first one that you believe, tell me. Because if it is a question of perception of thoughts alone, then it would be very tough.

Yes. See, I said, 'I can't do this,' and I stopped.

You believed that?

I believed, but it also had a perceptual thing. I stopped doing it. I put the thing down.

So you cannot tell when you give truth value to something?

There's nothing perceptual telling. No evidence. I really can't tell when I'm... so if I'm doing focus thing, thoughts are many times...

There is no difference between a thought which is given no truth value and a thought which is given truth value. Like, you can't tell?

Nothing perceptual, yeah.

No, no, you can't tell any difference. So when I say you know, I'm not saying you know perceptually. Like, you cannot say when you let a thought go and when you grabbed at it. Is this true? So all the sages who told us, 'Just let the thoughts come and go.' We can't really tell whether we let it go or we believed it? So just be the Sakshi, or all the teachers saying, 'Just be the observer of your thoughts. Don't buy into them.' What would be your response to them? Like, given something that you said before, that we had this idea that we were being open and empty but subtly were believing thoughts, that's when you said try praying the entire day.

And I mean in this sense, if it was evident when I believed, then this wouldn't have been required.

Yes. But subtly is not unknown.

It is that, isn't it?

Like, so we subtly believe them must have a different texture than saying we can never come to know whether we do.

What is that? What is that? It's not even a subtle difference. It's quite a stark difference to say that these are thoughts which subtly get believed in, versus to say that we can never tell between a belief or not belief.

It's not never, not never. Yeah.

Okay. Then how?

Sometimes I can tell. How can I tell?

How do you tell? We know when we give truth value.

Mode of knowledges. At best, pointers to the higher mode. At best, incomplete, not 360 degrees.

The mode by which I know that I'm either believing or not believing, that mode of knowledge is very subtle. Maybe I know what is with you. No, that mode of knowledge is belief. Belief.

Yeah. The two primal instruments, remember, consciousness has attention and belief. What is belief?

Yes, 'This is true.' The tongs. 'Let's make this concept mine. This is true for me.' See? And we hate it if it is true only for me. We want it to become the universal truth. So we put it on Facebook and we hope that everybody else will also accept this. So it gives us safety in numbers because we don't want knowledge which is true only for us. What is belief? Is there belief? Like, attention is easy to answer. Is there belief? What is belief?

Getting involved in involvement of me. Small me.

Yes. So that mechanism of loading that 'me' with position, with what we take to be truth value, as a constant nourishment of this egoic one, of the ego itself, is the process of belief, is the power of belief. What is faith as distinct from belief? These are subtle realms. I'm so glad we're talking about this. So what is the distinction between faith and belief?

Yes. And the power of faith doesn't, like you said, doesn't add to the ego. It brings us closer to the presence of God. So the power to follow what the Atma is guiding us to, what the spirit is showing us, is faith. The power to pull into the 'me' what our mind is telling us by giving it truth value is belief. Isn't it absurd that we spend our entire lives and—so I've spent almost 51 years apparently in this realm and these things are so unexplored.

This belief, do we mostly base it on that something which we perceive through the senses?

Yeah, so how in that sort... so interesting. No. How do you perceive your thoughts?

There's only one type of perception that you can believe.

Believe this.

No, I can't. It has to be a thought.

So, but this is still a perception.

So, every perception cannot be believed. It has to be just language. It has to be just the thoughts. The energy construct called thought which can be believed. You see, so the perception of an object by itself cannot be believed. It needs messaging. It needs language.

You're saying what comes from the spirit can't be believed.

Yeah.

One type of perception that you can believe. Believe this.

No, I can't. It has to be a thought.

So, but this is still a perception. So, every perception cannot be believed. It has to be just language. It has to be just the thoughts. The energy construct called thought which can be believed. You see, so the perception of an object by itself cannot be believed. It needs messaging. It needs language.

You're saying what comes from the spirit can't be believed. Only thought can be believed. You're saying what comes from the heart can't be believed.

Impossible. We can have faith in what comes from the heart as long as it is—but that faith may not yet have a constructed articulation. So that's what the first part of satsang was about: that although in the heart we know everything, but how is it that every sage seems to have a particular theme which becomes their focus? It is because in the discipleship of the Atma that the Atma decides only to give us articulation about a certain aspect of what is known in the heart. So that which is articulatable is believable.

I wanted to ask you about this also, that I've noticed many times I say something that doesn't align with what you're saying, and I can't figure out what it is, and with time it gets clarified. And that seems to mimic what you say about heart knowledge. It just seems more—I don't know what to call it. Cognitive dissonance seems close, but I'm not sure that's the right word. But there are many times when I have a question and I don't know the answer and it formulates, and sometimes I know the answer in a very vague way.

No.

Vague that there's something there to it. And what do you mean by no?

No. That's what I mean. There's something there which is not in language. Something that is dissonant. I don't agree with your words. When you know the answer, what do you mean by know? Have it in language?

So if to have the concept of something in our belief system or even in our memory is to know, would you call that to know?

To have—can you repeat? Sorry. Yeah.

To have the conceptual construct of something in our belief system or even just in our memory. Would you call that to know?

Somebody said to Bob Marley that, you have been such a famous performer all this time. Are you rich? I'm still on the same topic. Are you rich? So he said, what do you mean by rich? They said, have you made a lot of money? So Bob Marley said, money make you rich? It's a good question to ask. You see, what makes a rich life? So in the same way, when we say 'I know,' this is a very fundamental question to ask. What do we mean by know? To have the concept of something stored? Is that knowledge? And if you call that knowledge, let me say, what is wisdom then?

Like say I know when I empty this glass, water will fall on the floor, and then actually I do it and it happens.

So how do you know that?

Perception first. First is just unconfirmed. It's a hypothesis, and once it's here, the water, then it's confirmed. Then it's a belief—it's confirmed. Belief is still not there.

Very good. So if we simplify and say that with perception, let's call that perceptual knowledge. It's true, but let's apply with just conceptual thinking. Let's call that conceptual knowledge. You know, like we've talked about it, the world being—the earth being spherical, all of these things. It's not our perceptual experience, but it's conceptual knowledge that we picked up from apparently credible sources. And I'm not a flat-earther. Okay. I'm just saying in the reality of things, what is the earth? So, now the sages have thrown a difficult situation at us saying that in these two modes of knowledge, God will not be captured. Atma Darshan, Atma Gyan will not happen. You see, so what would you say about that? No. K-N-O-W.

That's where my problem is because you only say it's none of these two, but you don't say positively what it is.

So if somebody was unaware of a perceptual way of knowing, if they were without senses, then in what way could you explain to them what sensory knowledge is? You can only keep saying, 'No, there's something else.' You see, go somewhere else, go beyond this. You can only try with these ways. There's so many examples in spirituality where we say if somebody has not tasted chocolate, then what will you do? You'll say—they'll say, 'Is it spicy?' You say, 'No.' 'Is it bitter?' You say, 'Maybe.' So it depends on what you want to convey.

What's the solution to that? Just—is there something like, how do you know unconditional love? Is it just a feeling? That is one universal thing.

No, that we can say that we know only from the heart. What we call the heart knowledge is unconditional love, which is not a desire, it is not a wanting, it is not a grasping. Now you may say that I don't know if I've ever felt that unconditional love because I've only felt a feeling love, or a wanting love, what I call love but actually wanting. And then I wouldn't know what to tell you. But my hope is that everybody's got a sense of this unconditional love. Is it known perceptually?

I feel after coming to satsang and doing ads and all, I find a love which is very different.

How? What do you mean by find?

Find. Yeah. Perceive.

Perceive a love which is a felt love. What I'm calling felt love. Now unfelt. See, felt is conditional. No, felt is conditional in some way. Like I keep taking this example that my felt love for even my biological children, you see, is not there when they're irritating me or they're doing something silly or putting themselves in harm's way. Then I'm not feeling a lot of love for them. But if somebody was to say, 'Do you love your children right now? Right now, do you love your children?' I would say yes.

When that felt love is there also in that moment, you don't want anything.

Yeah. But I'm saying even when the felt love is not there, in fact it may be the opposite of that, which may be anger or fear, then somebody says, 'But do you love your children right now?' You say, 'Yes.' On what basis? Is it a lie? It's not a lie. How do you know this? No, this one. How do you know? Why this is important? Because our love for God will be like that. It will not always be felt. That you might not actually love God. Never.

But I was an atheist for so long. There's something there to like—this is an example. Now I see something there and I don't have the words for it.

Yeah. Then how do you know something is there?

It's something. Yeah.

How do you know? You see, and soon it'll become like this. As you keep exploring this, you will see that conceptual knowledge seems to be just floating on the surface. You want to dive into the ocean, dive deep, you see. But what happens for a long time, the waves can seem very exciting on the surface. There's enough—like we can spend millions of lifetimes just on the waves. But once you get a taste of diving within, no. So now two questions. You have one you gave yourself, one I gave you, which was that love which is not being felt in that moment. In fact, fear may be being felt in the moment, and yet you can confirm that love, which is not a lie. How do you know it? And you say something there but I don't know what. How do you know?

Something I want to ask. That's what I meant.

Yes. Yes. Whatever to ask or not ask, but something there which is not articulatable yet, then how is it known? It's not perceptible. It's not articulatable. Then how is it known?

On the theme of knowing, Father, that means from heart there can never be a question, Father? Or can be? Or from that space?

There can be. There can be a question arising which will melt a part of our identity. What you mean is that I realize the tension that you're talking about. The heart knows everything, then how come the heart presents questions sometimes? The heart may say to us, 'Do I know the merciful nature of God?' And how do we know? So that it presents questions to us to melt us more and more, to melt the false me more and more.

So, Father, when I'm closer in prayer, definitely there is no questions. But whenever I'm asking a question, it's definitely—I feel that it's coming not from heart.

From heart?

Not from heart.

Not from it. It's like—that's okay. Either you present the question to the heart or the question comes from the heart. Either way is good. If the heart is uninvolved, world energy is mind to mind, then it's mind. So we just have to hope that this one is not caught up in some stupidity and answering from his mind.

And the answer to the two questions you gave me?

How do I—I gave an answer?

No. How do I get to the answers to those two?

How do I tell you about chocolate? That's success. You see what is happening? Let's observe what is happening. What's happening is that you're hitting a dead end. That dead end nobody likes. You see, so when the Zen master gives the Zen koan to the poor disciple, you feel the disciple saying, 'Yes, thank you. This is so nice.' You see, they are bound to hit a dead end for year after year after year. You see, they hit that. No, you know all the Zen stories. So they hit that dead end. They get frustrated. They get angry. They have tantrums. In fact, the Zen stories sometimes are overtly violent with slapping and sticking and all kinds of things, you know. So, all this happens. Why? Because there's a box. We try to go that way, it hits a boundary. Try to go that way, it hits a boundary. Try to go that way, everywhere it hits a boundary. Then we are tired of that thing. No, we are like, 'Okay, solve it for me.' Now, if I give you just a concept which will seem to provide you a band-aid for the moment, you see, then you'll just add that to your intellect and that's all. But will that permanently solve anything? No. You remember the leaky roof analogy? So that dripping roof is very irritating. Tuck, tuck, tuck, tuck. This way or this way? This way or this? This way or this way? So when we say very simply things like comfort in opposites, you see, it's a great spiritual depth because you're not dying this way or this way, this way, this way.

Clarify. You're saying that it's not just the answer that can't be supplied. The way to get to the answer is also not communicable.

All sadhana is the way to the answer. Okay. So, let me—the danger is it becomes a concept. But okay. Let's say that Atma only can give you a spiritual answer to a spiritual question. Now how to meet the Atma that—

I won't know when I found the Atma.

You will.

How do I not mistake other things to be the Atma?

How you know love? How you know belief? That way you know the Atma. Do you feel like the world is flat or spherical?

Really, I've explored this quite a lot. I really don't.

This is payback. You know, to really know, you need to go up in space and see it. Or I've just heard other people's supposed experiments, their confirmations, their arguments, even pictures I've seen.

How many fingers? Five. Yes.

Okay. So, if I say four, then you'll fight that. Yes. You see, so how do you know the concept of five versus four? Conceptually and perceptually it's not such a difference. So you know, like you said, water dropping, inductive knowledge, all that stuff. So now, ever since we were little children, we were told perceptually if you see five distinct things, we call that five. If you see four distinct things, we call that four. So perceptually and conceptually, isn't it? Now how do you know that—what supplies life energy to move this hand like this? No, neither. You may have a concept about it that God supplies us with prana, life energy, then moves, but it's not yet a like capital-K known knowledge. No, just a concept we may have. So how do we come to that? By not attaching. If you refuse to leave—on one hand you have a hammer, in the other hand you have a drill gun, drill machine, how will you cut your nails? What is the first step? Huh? At least one you have to leave.

You know that what supplies life energy to move this hand like this? No, neither. You may have a concept about it that God supplies us with prana, life energy, then moves, but it's not yet a like capital K known knowledge. No, just a concept we may have. So how do we come to that? By not attaching. If you refuse to leave—on one hand you have a hammer, in the other hand you have a drill gun, drill machine—how will you cut your nails? What is the first step? Huh? At least one you have to see. Or you say that no, I am going to find a way to do it with either the hammer or the drill machine only. You see, now this sounds absurd in this context, but it doesn't sound absurd to most of humanity in the spiritual concept.

It seems like it's always something else. It's the same those two tools but new versions of it which gives the impression of a different tool.

Of course it'll provide all that. The mind is not going to give up easy. Maya is not going to give up easy.

Say what about this?

So even that can't be avoided. It has to—it can't be avoided.

Yeah. So that's why like stay with your japa or stay with the real inquiry on who you are. These are time tested. Thousands and thousands of years. Time tested. No, there's value in time tested. The first reference to 'Who am I?' that I am aware of is in the Yajnavalkya. The first reference to chanting name is also in the Upanishads, but I'm not sure which one were maybe the earliest, but it's in the Gita as well. So thousands of years of time tested practice.

I don't like being tricked and there's nothing I can do about it. It's okay. I have to suffer it or risk.

No, no risk, no fees. It's a risk. It's a huge risk. I'm not hiding that risk from you. You are betting your life on this. It's a huge risk. This guy could be fraudulent, just talking about all of these things because he wants to look reverential in your eyes or something; could be completely fraudulent. So it's a huge risk you have to take. It's not a small one.

I'll go, please go. So this opposite seeming notions that you are talking about. So this was what was happening for the last three years. Uh, mind used to propose both opposite notions and I couldn't get any conclusion, so maybe the tendency was to remain in conclusion. But gradually when I couldn't find any conclusion, so gradually the attention stopped going towards any notion of that proposal from the mind. I thought what was happening, but now I'm realizing that that was grace, I think.

Yes. Yes.

So very, it was very difficult. I thought like, what is happening? And then if we are not at Master's feet, then it takes form of doubt. We start doubting and then it can take like mind starts winning after that. Yes. So it seems very important in such times to remain at feet and I also want to thank you for your infinite mercy and compassion. Yes, Father, I want to apologize for not being obedient. Yes. And for my arrogancy, anger, and pride, everything.

Bless you. Bless you. May God's grace constantly be upon you in this.

Yes. So basically the doubt won. Doubt won in the past. But your grace brought me back somehow. It was indeed your infinite mercy. Like the mind, in the end, the mind lost. Mind loses the battle and it surrenders kind of, that if somebody is loving so much, not stopping, infinite love, then mind is bound to give up and doubt loses its power if I am at your feet, God's feet always. My faith got shaken, Father, that's why.

I understand. Don't—

It was all grace. I think all grace. All weak, very weak, very happy. You kept my faith strong somehow. So, weak. I also like, you know it the best, that feelings just come and go. Especially when we are grateful to the Master. One moment we are grateful and when the burning starts happening everyone runs away, but still it's very important that I speak the current feeling. So I'm at your feet now and this life belongs to you now. Whatever way you want to use it. I'm not capable, I am helpless, but I have faith in God is not stopping, so that's the only option. You know, this life belongs to you and I want to repent, I want to do everything like whatever I want to, being obedient first of all, you know, without questioning the arrogancy that was here like, 'Oh, that happened because of that, not your grace.' This was the arrogancy here. But now I'm realizing everything and you are the only doer. I'm not doing anything these days. Even when I take God's name or inquiry, I do as I do. Sometimes I feel like I can't do it. God, you do it. I want to rely on God more and more like this. The communion that is happening with God. I am finding myself more and more connected to God. This constant communion with God. I can't do it. You do it. That one percent we think like we are doing it, that also He does. It is His mercy. Yes, Father. And I want to be obedient to the extent like right now it's just current feeling. You know it the best that it doesn't work like that when the burning—right now if you tell me to go become a beggar somewhere, you know, I will follow you and I'll not pay any attention to mind's any complaint, any anger, anything for the rest of my lifetime. I'll become a beggar happily. I will not give attention to the mind. That's my promise to you. Speaking too much like this. It's very important to speak the current feeling. It doesn't work like that. I know it's very important because I keep the feeling, good feelings in the heart like it is known from the heart to the heart already. And when the mind comes strongly I only used to speak that, but it's time that I speak what is in my heart. So that's all that I want to speak. I'm at your feet. Whatever way, I'm not capable, but faith in God. Like life is also directing me in this direction now. That's all I want to say. Thank you for your infinite love, unconditional love.

Very good. Very good. This is so much God's grace. This is so much—I'm so grateful to God for blessing you in this way. So happy to hear your words today. Very, very happy.

So, it's no less than a miracle actually.

Yes. Thank Him.

It's brought so much joy to my heart. Thank you.

You can take anything from me like everything you can take now. Full, full blessings, full love. Yes.

And Ananta, I have this ongoing idea that I need help spiritually and I don't know what that help is or where to get it or if it's my mind constructing these obstacles from full awakening and full surrender. Like, 'Oh, you need a secret ingredient for this cooking.' Um, or you don't know what it is or where to buy it or you can't wake up until you have it. You can't fully realize, you can only see it a little bit now and then. And so, I need to know. I would like to know what it is. Do you know? Is it—I don't even know if you can—I'm answering a question, asking a question. I don't even know if you can answer.

Yeah. Even I don't know yet. Let's see what comes. See what come.

So, but I feel willing to fully surrender like there's nothing in this world that I really want anymore. Um, and the times I feel there's no separation between me and God are—there's nothing like that. But then of course, you know, the commentary begins. It starts up.

Everybody experiences that, right? Yeah.

And I feel so annoyed by that and so frustrated by that.

So go ahead. The gap between the commentary appearing and the annoyance of frustration. You see, is that fully organic that it happens? The appearance and the frustration.

Yeah. It seems to be the order of it happening.

Order. Yes. But is there a step in the middle?

Um, I would say yes, there is a gap in the middle.

There's a step in the middle. A step which is that like the appearance of thoughts will continue for everyone. See, the appearance of resistive thoughts may also appear for everyone. Continue for everyone. Yeah. So it is not in the appearance itself organically by themselves that the frustration can come. It is in believing the construct of those thoughts. And that's exactly what we were talking about earlier. Isn't it? So if the thought is saying, 'You'll never get this, it's never going to happen. It's a waste of time. You're just—you're just not worthy.'

Unworthy. Yeah. Unworthy. And definitely every—all kinds of thoughts just in their appearance is enough to cause frustration. Say it again. Just in their appearance is enough to cause frustration in my case. Yes. That's my experience. I—there's something keeping me from full realization. And I—I don't spend enough time in the day. I don't—I—I don't know. It's just supposed to come when it comes. Maybe 200 more lives. I—I—I don't know.

What if the notion of full realization is not helpful but getting in the way? Like, do I know something called a full realization? I don't.

It's those moments of profound peace where everything is fine. Even though there are objectively problems that need to be ironed out in life, but it's like I don't care. And then this feeling of doom will come or this feeling of sadness or I'll be like, 'No, I don't want that. I want to remain in the place where I feel there's no separation between me and my Creator.' Like there's no—it's the place of no words, of no—

Yes, so let's—

Like to live there.

Do you feel like the 'I want' helps or gets in the way?

Well, I think that's a great question because I think that it's the greatest desire, you know, I think to want that is like the most auspicious.

Okay. Okay. That's—that's not right. So if it was to happen or if it was already true, how would you know?

By unshakable peace.

Peace. Now unshakable peace or let's say difficult to shake peace because I cannot talk about unshakable peace because I don't have unshakable peace. I have difficult to shake peace. And I feel like if anyone except God Himself were to—was to speak with integrity, they would say that what—what we have by God's blessing is more and more difficult to shake peace. You see, it is the finality many times which causes the problem because the slightest shakiness then we say, 'I don't yet have unshakable peace.' You see, maybe the better way to see is: Is my peace better than it was last year? Is it deepening compared to five years ago? You see, and if the process is that of ever deepening, yes, then am I going on the right track in that process? You see the difference?

Yes, I do. I—I do. And I—I do see that happening.

So—

But I'm 70, so the clock is ticking.

Yeah.

And I know that it happens like—it can happen like this. Like this permanent.

Yes. There you are. You know, but again that is not my experience. So although I had what many would call an awakening experience in January 2009, was that something which led to a peace which was permanently unshakable? No. I have lost my peace since January 2009 to now thousands of times. But is it ever deepening? Yes. Did that event take out a lot of the garbage, a lot of the identity? Yes. Did it take out everything? No. So, there isn't a sage on the walls or in the books who has said that the 'me' never showed its head ever again. You see, now the idea of the permanent dissolution of ego is very dangerous because the slightest shakiness then the mind uses to say, 'See, you're not there yet. What is the point? It's not working. I want that permanency.' You see, whereas in reality all that we can hope for is an ever deepening love, ever deepening peace, ever deepening joy. So I'm not going to sell you snake oil, okay? By talking about something which will be a permanent fix to everything, okay? That is not my experience. And I'd be very suspicious of anyone who's offering that as their lived experience because it's very possible here that somebody here in satsang says something that aggravates me and I leave that peace and get into irritation. You see, so you can see a live example of that. Yeah.

Ever deepening peace, ever deepening joy. So I'm not going to sell you snake oil, okay? By talking about something which will be a permanent fix to everything, okay? That is not my experience. And I'd be very suspicious of anyone who's offering that as their lived experience because it's very possible here that somebody here in satsang says something that aggravates me and I leave that peace and get into irritation. You see, so you can see a live example of that. Yeah. So I'm not going to sell you a medicine which hasn't worked here as a permanency.

Okay, that helps a lot because you know I saw the video in 2009. And you know, being around Mooji, I'm seeing a lot of people crack wide open. I'm like, what do I need to do to have that experience?

Yeah. And that's why I want to answer you with full integrity because when we see the video, then that conveys like something permanently got transformed, but that is not the reality of it. And many videos like that—in fact, there's a very popular video of that four-minute enlightenment with Papaji. Have you seen that or this?

No, I don't think so.

She just kept laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. Yeah, thank you. And I just felt when I saw that video that this one must be like on some other planet by now. You see, but she came to satsang by God's grace and we spoke to her and she said that it didn't last. You see, it didn't last. And she wasn't seeming very impressed with the whole process, which was a great wakeup call for me. But then I felt more grateful because she seemed more skeptical. In my case, at least I saw that it was a great gift. That moment of that awakening experience was a great gift. So, I wouldn't look at the visuals of what takes place in those moments to extrapolate into the permanency of life because I can see how detrimental it can be because you will find it so difficult to forgive yourself. You want a permanent peace. Now the auto-rickshaw charging double the amount—this is a famous example in Peru and Bangalore—so that can shake our peace. Then we say that look at this, 15 years of this, 20 years of this, and still no permanency, you see.

Mhm.

So I feel like a better way to check without it being oppressive is: is my anger, is my reactivity better today in the same situation than it would have been last year or the year before that? And if you're progressing on that journey, then okay. And even if we say sometimes our mind says, 'No, you've not changed at all, there is no point to any of this,' you see, then we really learn how to slow down, not to go with the judgment of the mind, and really look in the heart. And I know that somebody sincerely on the path like you are, it is not possible that God's grace is not with them and transforming them. Maybe not at the rate which we want, right, but the transformation is happening on His time.

Like I've watched it happen with you over the years. And I think it was last year that I came and I was angry about many things, and when I was sitting in this room, it couldn't exist here. Like, the peace in you was so strong that it didn't have any hold on me. It couldn't exist in the same room with you. And also here I have, you know, kind of a big problem back in the US and it's just, I don't feel the emotions with it when I'm sitting here. So that's a huge testament to what you have inside. And I'm sure everybody else in here is affected by it or they wouldn't be here. And that's that deep abiding peace that I just really, really want it. So that I don't care what the tuk-tuk charges me. Yeah. I don't want to care about it. Like sure, take it. 2,000 to go up to the Leela Palace? Sure, I'll take it. I don't care. And I have days like that, but many a days I'm like, 'You scoundrel!' I want to hit him with my bag. Yeah. So, thank you. You've helped me a lot. I have one more quick question. Do you think that it's necessary to be in the proximity of a living Guru to have this deepening or...

That's another tough one. So just a little more on the first one and then I'll answer this one also. If the Lisa that I first met—how many years ago was that? 15 years? Yes, around that then. To the Omati that is here now. If that Lisa was to meet this Omati, would she not feel, 'Wow, you've grown so much'?

I don't know because the voice that was tormenting me then is still with me. Yeah. You know, so I can't tell. God, you know, I can understand. Maybe you can see a difference. I don't know.

I see the difference very starkly because you know when you came to Namaya first, I had sold it to you and said you must come to the mountain. Huh? Remember this? Do you remember?

Yes.

I said you must come to the mountain and then you came and then I met you after a few days of you being there and I said, 'How is it?' Do you remember what you told me?

No.

You said it is a pile of garbage.

We have better mountains in New Hampshire. It's a pile of garbage. I don't know why anybody would want to come here. Okay.

So, between that...

I don't remember saying it out loud, but...

Yeah. No, no, you told me and I felt very responsible because I had sold it to you. You took me there. You drove me there. My, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I didn't remember that but I do remember saying, 'Just come to the mountain, everything will be fine.' You see, so sometimes from a distance helps. As I see you from a distance, it helps. I see you on Facebook, the kind of love you have for Arunachala, for Tiruvannamalai, for Bhagavan, all of that is so beautiful. So it's definitely, definitely made a huge difference. And if you keep along this path, if you keep going at it without falling for the unworthiness which the mind offers, without falling for the obstacles, without falling for the promises of finality which the mind itself offers to us, you see, and just deepening, then that will help. Secondly, I just feel I want to offer to you that involve God in your narrative more and more. That 'I am not growing as fast as my mind wants, but God knows best what should happen to me.' God has graced me with so much holiness in the last 15 years that at least every couple of years you're here, if not every year, isn't it? You see, so He has blessed you with that. And He who is taking care of you in this way will also take care of you in the rest of your life, you see.

Okay.

So the danger of this idea of instant enlightenment, persistent permanent freedom, all of that will just get in the way of your deepening love and light. So, I can tell you that also what will happen—like I'm so touched by your report to what you said about what you experience in satsang. But what will happen is that as you deepen your peace, your sensitivity to your lack of peace will also go up. You see, so as I'm deepening in my peace, and by God's grace I know that I'm deepening in my peace as time is going along, my sensitivity to my irritation, my sensitivity to my lack of peace is also going up. You see, and that's why I'm not able to say that, 'Oh, I'm so peaceful, I'm so peaceful.' And that is good because it keeps us humble. See, imagine what we would be like if we were just permanently out of all of these things. I feel I'd be so arrogant. I'd be so arrogant, full of pride. You see, just 'me, me' all the time. 'I am so great. I don't have these things that you have. What, you still have them?' You see, so much pride would be here. And thank God that He didn't give me anything which I can call permanent. Thank God that He gave me that which I need to constantly deepen in because there's a great propensity for pride here. There's a great propensity for a sheer absence of humility here. You see, so just like the loving mother, He knows how much to feed us when. So, trust in Him more. Keep offering everything to Him as much as you can. One of the banes of modern spirituality is that a lot of modern spirituality has become spiritless. So who is the provider of peace? Remember how we first met? We met because of A Course in Miracles.

Yes.

Yes. And A Course in Miracles is all about meeting the Holy Spirit and living in the light of the Holy Spirit. Although it sounds like some woo-woo type book, it's not some strange handbook about witchcraft or something like that. It's really about coming to the light of the Holy Spirit itself. So I'm realizing that all the pathways are to the spirit, to Atma. Whether you call it Atma or spirit, it's the same thing. So maybe it is just in your report, but I didn't find any mention of God, spirit, any of that, which then makes it seem like 'I have to do the enlightenment project on my own,' which I cannot do. You see, then that's what I was saying. What can I do? I can turn inwards towards Him. The rest of it He has to give.

Yes. This is what I'm feeling is that I feel like I'm doing my part, but it sounds so silly. It sounds so arrogant, but I'm just wondering where the help is. Spiritual help. I'm wondering where, because He must know. He knows the yearning in my heart, right?

Yeah. So this plane has to fly. So the first question I usually ask—you answer the first question I usually ask—is: does God not know? You said He must know. It's not possible that He doesn't know. Then the second question I usually ask is: does God not care what you feel? The answer is yes, He cares, right?

But then I think I'm not worthy or else He'd be... okay. Like there's some vasana or something in me that needs correction or that's where this goes as I go around and around.

Then the first part wouldn't be true. You said He must know the deep longing in my heart.

Yes.

You see, now if there's a deep longing, then that deep longing is worth a million times more than any unworthiness that we may have, and we all may have. No? So He knows about your deep longing. I propose to you that He cares about you much more than any human idea of love. So He knows, He loves you deeply. The third thing is that maybe He's just too busy. What do you feel?

I don't know. I don't know the mind of God. I just know that my sense is that, almost like a prisoner, the prisoner wants to get out. He's done his time. But no, it's not time. You have to just sit there and serve it. You know, I'm sorry, but I'm not letting you out until... does that sound crazy or just aware of...

I feel that somewhere in our heart we know that He is not bound by time. So it's not possible that He doesn't know, that He doesn't value it, or He doesn't love us enough, or that He doesn't have time. None of these things are possible. You see? So then the fourth thing is that unlike a human parent which would not give their child even one grain of suffering more than what was needed for their growth, God must be a little less kind than a human parent is.

It's also not possible.

You see? Okay. Now what has happened, in my humble submission, is that the idea of that finality and permanence is causing most of this problem. So let's change that if we can to this moment. This moment. This moment. Not a freedom which is permanent in time, but a freedom this moment. This moment. This moment. Not a permanent freedom from the mind, but a letting go of this thought. This thought. This.

Very good. Thank you. Thank you.

You're welcome. The second question was about the proximity to a teacher. I'm asking for trouble by reminding you of the second question. So it is not a prerequisite. It is not a prerequisite. God would not be that unkind that there are millions who don't have access to a living teacher. So He would not make Himself inaccessible because of that. But in my experience, it is helpful. It's helpful. Now that proximity can be in the form of Zoom.

Very good. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. The second question was about the proximity to a teacher. I'm asking for trouble by reminding you of the second question. So it is not a prerequisite. It is not a prerequisite. God would not be that unkind that there are millions who don't have access to a living teacher. So he would not make himself inaccessible because of that. But in my experience it is helpful. It's helpful. Now that proximity can be in the form of Zoom. It can be in the form of the room. It can be in so many different forms. It can be in the form of recordings. It can be in the form of just listening to a little bit of satsang every day. The proximity doesn't have to be physical fully, although honestly even that helps. I will not deny the helpfulness of that. You see, but depending on the space life is making for that to happen in our lives. If we say that I will be as close as possible to a living master, then that helps, you see. So suppose that you have to be in Boston, you see, then just to join as much satsang as much as possible or to watch as much recording as possible, you see, it's proximity.

So there's a great Indian sage called Tulsidas Ji who's written one beautiful version of the Ramayan. He said that just like bad company is contagious, good company is contagious. So the more we keep the company of the saints, the sages, the more helpful it is. God. Okay, the body is feeling the tiredness. But I want to hear from Mukti because oh my god, it's been so long. I miss you so much. I miss you. Oh my god, I miss you guys so much. So happy that you're here today. So happy.

Thank you, Ananta. I don't have a question or anything. I just wanted to like say hi, see how you were doing and your family and stuff like that because I haven't been in satsang in forever. Yeah. I just I miss you and I have a lot of appreciation for your existence. Like you've always been Father to me. You've always been Ananta and I just I have so much love. So much love.

I love you too, my child, so much. Fullheartedly. I love you very much.

Yeah, me too. Me too. I love when I'm watching a Mooji video and I see you sitting next to Mooji. I'm like, there's Ananta.

Sweet. So sweet. I hope you'll be able to join from time to time so that we can—

I'm going to make sure I join. It's Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, right? I'm in the Dominican Republic right now. So that's 8:00 AM for me. So, I'll be making sure I join in.

Very good. I'm so happy to hear this and we'll chat more. I just love you so much and I'm sending you all my love. All my blessings. I'm just sending you all my love and all my blessings and now we must make this a habit, okay, of coming.

Yes, I'll make sure I come. I really I miss being in the presence and just like saturating my mind and soul with the presence of satsang, you know. You have so much wisdom in you and I see that and I've seen that over the years, how much wisdom and integrated you've become with your teaching, then I just have so much appreciation. I love you so much. I love satsang members. I love everyone in here. Bless you. I was wondering, can you send me that video where you called me Mukti for the first time? If I could find the link to that video so I could rewatch it? I would love to rewatch it because I was only like 15, 16 and you called me Mukti.

Yeah. Do you have a sense of what year that was? How long ago? We'll try and look for this one.

Probably like 2015. I think it was 2015 or 2016.

2015 or 16. Okay, we'll try and look for this. We'll look for this. Love you. Love you so much.

Thank you. I love you too.

Bless you. Bye-bye. Bye for now.

Bye.

Okay, let's go to Radham Ji. Ram Ram.

Ram Ram, Father. Oh my god.