What is Contemplation? - Thomas Merton - 17th January 2025

So we can point to the fact that there seems to be an inner calling in all of us which brings us to satsang, and that calling does not come from a mental conceptual space; it comes from the Satguru calling within the heart. 'Leaving myself, I sit in the unreachable abyss of my soul, looking lovingly at him, feeling him loving my heart, seeking his light without worldly eyes, unmoving except at his command.' So how many of us feel that we can meet these words by ourselves with our understanding? Can we meet these words with our understanding? We may meet the traditional meaning of these words, we may be able to interpret the meaning in the mental dictionary and say, 'Oh, this is what this means, this is what this means,' but at best that meaning is pointing to the truth which is being pointed at, and that truth itself is ineffable. With me in this? Feel free to stop me and say, 'What are you saying?' My answer may not be satisfactory because that's the whole point of what I'm saying—that we can't really explain it in words. But if something I can try and point in a deeper way, I'll try and do that.

So let's say that we came across a spiritual passage like this. What is it meant to do? It is meant to bring us to that nididhyasana and ultimately to a samadhi, which is a complete absorption in God, complete absorption in his light and love. And we are exploring the pathway to come to that true spirituality, true spiritual union. Yes? So this is what he says about contemplation, and please excuse the sexist language; it is a question of time that in those times it was tradition to write in this way. If it was written today, it would not have been written in this particular way, but read it with that forgiveness.

Contemplation is the highest expression of man's intellectual and spiritual life. It is the highest expression of man's intellectual and spiritual life. It is that life itself fully awake, fully active, fully aware that it is alive. It is spiritual wonder. It is spontaneous awe at the sacredness of life, of being. It is gratitude for life, for awareness, and for being. It is a vivid realization of the fact that life and being in us proceed from an invisible, transcendent, and infinitely abundant source. Invisible, transcendent, and infinitely abundant source. So that's great news, but it's also very bad news. So shall I read this part again, or at least the relevant portion? It is the highest expression of man's intellectual and spiritual life. What is the highest expression of our spiritual life? What do you feel? Atma and a deep loving relationship with Atma, and maybe leading to a divine union, a oneness emerging. Whether it is a recognition of that oneness or a feeling of a spiritual betrothal with God, a spiritual espousal with God, which is just difference in vocabulary based on jnana or bhakti, but it is the same. To recognize that we are one and to participate and merging is actually the same inward process; this is just different external words.

So this is the promise of contemplation: to bring us to our highest spiritual life. Contemplation itself, yes. So it is like prayer; we can look at it in that way. It is itself the process as well as the fruit. It is the process as well as the fruit. In different terminology, we may say that sitting in nididhyasana we come to samadhi, but we don't have to actually conceptually make that distinction because sitting in that empty contemplation, empty of concept, what do we do to bring ourselves to samadhi? Nothing. There's not a clear delineation saying this is where nididhyasana stops and this is where samadhi starts. It's not like that. So when we are doing the inquiry, for example, 'Who am I? Who am I? Who witnesses this thought? Who is asking the question?' that is the extent of my capabilities, isn't it? After that, the insight of myself as Brahman has to be seen in a different light, which is not a worldly light. So although I have to do my dharma, which is to give this time and attention to God, it is up to his grace whether the true insight comes or not.

Okay, so we are digressing a bit. The way I read this is even the contemplation feels like an action.

Okay, let me explain that again. So whether we call it sadhana or we call it Lectio, there are certain things which seem to be in my hand. What are those things? Those things are—the first step is shravanam or hearing. It's also Lectio, which means reading. But whether you say reading or hearing, it's the same thing, which is to imbibe those words, immerse yourself in the words of spirituality and the words of the sages who have pointed to God. So that is the first step, shravanam. Then what is the next step? It is to do the mananam; it is to do the meditation. Now don't—this is confusing terminology because what in Vedanta, or the usual translations of Vedanta, what we call meditation, in Lectio Divina is called contemplation, and what is called contemplation is what we call meditation. That's why the confusion comes, but it's not difficult. So just—but as we're doing it, it doesn't matter what you call it.

So what is the next step? Suppose that you heard this beautiful line which is from St. Teresa of Avila, where she says that there is a place in our hearts where the Divine One, God, loves to rest, delights to rest. There's a place in our heart where God delights to rest. So upon hearing this, we may be sent straight into a deeply meditative state. But for most people, we have to really look at this, have to say, 'Okay, what is this heart?' It can't be the biological heart, it can't even be the emotional heart; it has to be something deeper than all of that. How can I meet this heart? Because I want to meet him; that is my heart's desire. And if he delights there—he who is the Lord of the universe, he delights to live over there—then what a beautiful place this must be. And a sage is telling me, a very high sage is telling me, that there is this place in my heart where he lives, loves to live, see? So we can do the mananam on this part, the meditation as it is called in Lectio on this part, and squeeze out so much more just in that exploration, you see? And it really makes us focus; it really makes us one-pointed towards what we are truly contemplating.

Then in Advaita sadhana, this part is not mentioned specifically, but it's understood. But in Lectio, it is mentioned specifically that we make a prayer, because you come to this point of helplessness to say, 'I can't go to this place myself. I can't go to this place myself. It is not possible. My intellect can't do it. I may be a doctor in theology, but I can't do it,' you see? So we make this prayer, either in words or silently, saying, 'God, Ram Ji, Krishna, Jesus, Allah, please, please help me meet you in my heart because I am unable to, but there is nothing more that I long for. I want to spend this life in your presence, and Mother has told me that you are right here. I don't want to spend this whole life in my ego. I want to set it aside. I want to keep my selfishness aside and live with you, Lord.' So this is the prayer. This is the prayerful part, which very lovingly daring to make an insertion into Advaita sadhana, which we are calling sharanam to God.

Jesus, Allah, please, please help me meet you in my heart because I am unable to, but there is nothing more that I long for. I want to spend this life in your presence, and Maharaj has told me that you are right here. I don't want to spend this whole life in my... I want to set it aside. I want to keep my selfishness aside and live with you, Lord. So this is the prayer. This is the prayerful part which, very lovingly daring to make an insertion into Advaita sadhana, which we are calling sharanam—to go into surrender, to go into prayer to God. Because where the sages are pointing us in any true spiritual scripture, we cannot do by ourselves. So that prayer is very beautiful and necessary. But even till this point, it may feel like I'm actively driving the process. I'm driving the car till here, you see. Then what? Then what? This is the part where we have reached the complete extent of our capability, whatever we take our capability to be, and He takes on the steering wheel. He takes on the steering wheel, and that is contemplation. That is nididhyasana.

Therefore, we may ask ourselves—and if you look at all spirituality—is that I was sitting in... okay, this is not in all humility I want to see, and for after many, many years of struggling in spirituality, I was sitting in an auto one day, you see. And I was just contemplating Maharaj's words. Maharaj's words, he's saying, 'Just stay with the sense I am. Just stay with the sense I am.' And I was throwing almost a tantrum with him and with God, saying, 'I can't find this I am. I can't find it.' And maybe God in His grace, in His mercy, took those words to be a prayer and He answered it. So sitting in a tiny auto, right from Golden Enclave to Diamond District on this road, I came to the presence of the Atma within. And it is pure, pure gift of His grace because there was nothing really worthy about that boy, that man. And then when it became apparent, I was like, 'But it's always been here.' But this being, this presence, has always been like this. 'Is this what I was looking for? Am I fooling myself?' All the doubts also come.

So who did that? The tantruming I did. Let's presume I did. We can explore what is that doership also, but let's presume that my extent was the studying of 'I Am That' for a long, long time, and then feeling this deep inability but wanting it more than anything else in my life. But I was a very immature, stupid, naive child, and it's purely His grace that it was not in this way. So whether we put it in this framework or not, this is the heart of spirituality. As a bhakta or a jnani or whichever path of spirituality we may want to follow, really the point is to—I don't even know if I can put words to the point—but to come to a point where with integrity we empty ourselves of ourselves. We die to ourselves, at least in that moment, and give Him the space to reveal Himself to us.

Suppose that you rewind your life, or any of our lives, or many of our lives, a few years back and you've just started a relationship. It is a man or woman or whatever gender, and we really wanted to be with this one, really wanted it. So we got into the relationship and then we are so excited about it that we just like, 'Oh, I love you so much! Oh, thank you, thank you! Oh, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you!' You see? So initially it may sound very sweet to the other one, see? But if we are, just in our love, also taking up all the space and not letting the other one get a word in... so there must come a point that even in the expression of our love, we become quiet, isn't it? To say, 'Now I have expressed my love for you, but I want to allow you to love me as well.' That is why the beautiful words of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity: how to love God is to allow Him to love you.

So in any spiritual way, it cannot be that we don't allow Him to contain us fully. We don't allow Him to drive. Like that day in the auto, it was my last straw. I was just like, after this, what can I even say? Because he's saying so simply, 'Just be with the I am all the time,' but I can't even start this process because I can't find this I am. And then that inner eyes, those... that inner light in which we can meet our own Atma is purely His. Suppose you sing bhajan. Then you go to a bhajan event and they are just playing bhajan after bhajan after bhajan after bhajan. There's no pause. So after like five bhajans, you're like, 'Okay, now can we just sit maybe for a few minutes, just assimilate?' So whatever the spiritual part may be, that sitting quietly in His loving presence is the very fruit of spirituality. It is the very object, because in that, all revolution can happen. Before that, it's like a worldly process. It's like we are trying to create God in our lives using our best ideas and using our best imagination and visualization, you see. But that process cannot lead to God no matter what we do by itself, okay? So it has to be faith-led and grace-led.

Okay, I think I am confused between contemplation and self-inquiry because I previously used it synonymously. But then, Father, I always thought—or again, I thought—like the prayers... I felt the way you are telling me to pray now is a lot of effort, Father. But I always thought that prayer should be so effortless that I don't have to put contemplation in between. How... where it is? I'm getting confused between the confusion between inquiry and contemplation or prayer. What is the inquiry and contemplation? So I saw the prayer which you are just mentioning, not shared with me... it looks so process-oriented, Father. So it... I mean, it is like, do I need to follow the process to pray? What is the way in which we inquire or pray? So I feel inquiry needs effort and prayer doesn't need effort. Isn't that okay?

If prayer was effortless, then we should be able to pray all the time. Anything that is effortless should be possible to do all the time.

So let's take an example of prayer, Father. Let's... so going through the words, this one prayer I read, I interpret the words and that's it. I'm not trying to put the effort of contemplating those words, Father. Is it I should be doing that?

Okay, so let's look at this. So firstly, I want to say that in my life at least, prayer has been the most difficult. It has not been effortless. Not in the words of the prayer, because the words of the prayer can be very straightforward and simple, but in letting myself pray, in letting go of Maya and devoting that time to God. There is so much distraction. And it doesn't matter even if it is vocal prayer or mental prayer. After it becomes a japa, of course it becomes... but even then, a japa doesn't last. I don't know if any of you can claim that you came to a japa and it just went on forever. I don't feel like any sadhaka has reported that our devotion takes such a momentum that our prayer becomes automatic and then it becomes deep in the heart, you see.

Now, after it becomes deep in the heart, what happens? It becomes wordless. So you're praying, but there are no words left. In a state of bliss, in a state of love, where whatever is now left of me, if anything at all, is only lovingly looking at the Atma within. No words need to be spoken now, you see. But I would say that prayer is effortless if every time that I prayed, this happened. And I would say that inquiry is more effortful if it needed more than this. Actually, it doesn't need more than this. What does it need? You ask yourself, 'Who am I?' Then what are you going to do? Then some other things will come to try and get your attention and belief. You say, 'Who witnesses that?' Which part of this makes it seem like we are worthy of now coming to Brahma-gyan? Nothing. You just ask, 'Who am I?' sincerely, with as much sincerity as possible. Be with me in this.

So depending on our temperament, one may seem more effortful, one may seem more effortless. Because if you are with the devotional temperament, then to bow down and pray to God may seem more natural than asking 'Who am I? Who am I?' The mind will say it can seem very mental. But for those whose temperament is to dive deeply into things, find out, find out what everything is, you see, they will find prayer to be very strange and say, 'What is this?' You say, 'Okay, I'm going to explore what is the nature of my reality.' Nirguna Brahman sounds exciting to us, see? So for those of that temperament, then that seems more easy. So maybe it's a temperamental thing. But in itself, both are just knocking at the door. To open it is His job. And if prayer works, if inquiry works, this is exactly what happens anyway.

So this is just outlining that in advance, and that's why I sent a clipping of what Adi Shankaracharya Ji told us in the Vivekachudamani, where he said that shravana is very auspicious, you see, but manana is a hundred times more effective. And then he said that manana is a hundred times more effective, but nididhyasana is a hundred times better than manana. He said that samadhi is infinitely... it's beyond all scale. So whether we listen to the Shankaracharya himself, the great Adi Shankaracharya himself, or we listen to modern sages, it doesn't matter. The spiritual process is the same. And the coming to the emptiness, conceptual emptiness, where He is in the driving seat lovingly, whatever the preliminary pathway may be, it is the same.

Let's look at it also, your example that you said. So we are singing this beautiful bhajan, 'Shri Ramachandra Kripalu Bhajman.' But if you go to YouTube, there are a hundred different renditions of it, isn't it? Some are singing it purely performatively, like just showing off their voice and the instruments and whatever their skill set may be, you see. But they don't seem to be getting in touch with the Atma within at all. Now, then you will say, because they are not singing with what? They are not singing with bhava. And for those who don't understand Avadhi, how can they sing with bhava? First they have to understand what the sage has told us. The bhava won't come just in the word. Maybe the word Ram brings that beautiful power to us, but for many, just that may not be enough. We may need to understand what is happening, what is being said. So what is being said is the process of manana, and to dive into that, what is being said.

So let's take an example of this. So Tulsidas Ji has said, 'Oh my mind, sing the glory of Ramachandra, who is compassionate, who destroys the fears of the world, and whose eyes, face, hands, and feet resemble newly blooming lotuses.' Already, just in hearing that description, to know that this is what the sage is remembering about Lord Ram is so beautiful. So to immerse, remember that this is a process of surrendering ourselves fully. The more aspects of ourselves we can surrender, to bring to Him, that is why this process is also called the process of recollection. They were collecting our Atma fully and saying, 'Lord, I'm yours.' But we all have experienced it, that in our spiritual practice, when we are not collected, what happens? Then it's a very distracted sadhana. You're sitting, maybe in your heart you're feeling some love for God, but your mind is telling you about some trip you planned overseas or something like that, and you're just thinking about these things, you see. But there's still some... you see? So your layers are not really collected and they're not fully happening.

Other times you may feel like you're doing it by the book perfectly. 'Who am I?' is happening with full instruction, as if Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi himself is sitting with you guiding you. You're not missing one thought. You're saying, 'Who am I? Who's witnessing this?' You are not buying into any idea, you see. But it is not getting any deeper than that. No love for God is arising, no intuitive eyes are opening up inside, none of that is happening. So we say that today my inquiry, although I tried to follow the instruction, but it didn't really lead to any outcome. So whichever, whatever the path of spirituality may be, it has to be our layers become empty of 'me, me, me' and they are collected in that way and offered up to God. It's like an innocent auditioning before God, saying, 'Take me, I'm yours.'

It's not getting any deeper than that. It's not getting—no love for God is arising, no intuitive eyes are opening up inside, none of that is happening. So we say that today my inquiry, although I tried to follow the instruction, but it didn't really lead to any outcome. So whichever, whatever the path of spirituality may be, it has to be our layers become empty of 'me, me, me' and they are collected in that way and offered up to God. It's like an innocent auditioning before God saying, 'Take me, I'm yours.' So if you do the inquiry full of 'me'—'But I know that I am I,' you see—so that you do the inquiry in the way that you say that, 'Who am I? I know I'm Nirguna Brahman, but I want to still inquire.' You're full of like knowledge, know that 'I know I'm Brahman.' I had this—in our inquiry we are holding on to things—'I had this experience last week or last year where I saw there is no me, there is only...' and it's just mental. It's not. So you have to bring all of that and just simplify. Become innocent, become humble, and then a simple bhajan may take us to the highest. One phrase from a sage may take us to the highest.

It is said that the Mahavakyas had this power, you see. So if they had this power, why don't they work on us? Why? Because the sawdust has to be dry fully for a phrase like that to catch fire, see, to burn us up completely. The sawdust has to be fully dry. Fully dry means empty of the 'me,' empty of selfishness, empty of desire, empty of all of those which is the qualifications, no? The dreaded eight qualifications or eleven qualifications of Vedanta. You have to be free from temptation, free from mind, free from pleasure and pain, free from being worried about hot or cold. All of these things are qualifications. So we come to this point: okay, but did I at least try to try? Shravana itself is helping. And you are saying that manana—those individual—what Kabir Ji is trying to say, I'll put some efforts. If all of these steps help, as Adi Shankaracharya himself has said, it's very auspicious just to hear the words about God, about the truth. But he said much more auspicious, a hundred times more auspicious, is to dwell on them, is to squeeze at them. Then he said that much more, a hundred times more auspicious than that, is to sit empty in the unborn—he didn't say all these terms, but in that quietude, in the silence—and then infinitely more is to be in full absorption.

Now you may say that, 'But I have had this empty being in the unborn without having to hear anything.' You may have some moments where it just happened, but what to do with that? That was—it is not replicatable. It is not something that—it's taken to be a pure gift from God, but we just have gratitude for that, you see. But that doesn't give us an excuse, which it does for many who had spontaneous awakenings, think that, 'No, but I don't need to inquire, I don't need to pray.' You really have to sit and meditate or, you know, like say while you're driving or while you're working out. Why does everyone say driving first? Now I'm half-jokingly saying this because when I started sharing satsang, people would come from all over the place and they would say, 'You know, yesterday I was inquiring while in the car, I was driving.' Like, okay, that is not the best place for you to start the inquiry, no?

I mean, I've been driving a lot like from past few months. Say, like, I would drive at a stretch for like six hours and then pretty much four hours in that, like, you know, I'm just quiet and, you know, there's no thoughts running. And then there's sometimes it's like, you know, I've reached from one place to another place and I've not even realized. That is one side of it, like, you know, it can be a different thing altogether. But yeah, even like, you know, when you're driving, you're doing your self-talk and, like, you know, your inquiry and all the things, and then you're with chanting and you are with God at the same time. The thing with when I work out, I do the same thing and, like, you know, even there are like hundreds of other people in the gym, still like you're just by yourself and you're doing the thing. But only maybe like, you know, when I come here and I sit here, I like close my eyes and, like, you know, be in that meditative state. Like even if I'm doing my household work, like, you know, cleaning or cooking, I'm still in that state, but maybe not in the sitting in one position and, you know, meditating or anything. But that state is there, like, you know, which is that you can't explain. But I really wanted to ask that: is it like a compulsion that on every day note you should sit in a place and meditate? Is that like a compulsion, or like do you need to do the prayer, or it's fine to do your day-to-day things and still be with the feeling that it is?

I get your question, I get it. So just in this question, just replace God with girlfriend or wife. Replace God with girlfriend or wife. So you're talking to your girlfriend and you're telling her, 'Okay, I didn't, you know, specifically take out time to talk to you, but I remembered you while I was driving. It happened automatically.' You see? 'So I've not met you for weeks, but I remember you when I'm cleaning the house.' And what will she say? She'll get so... if really we are trying to create a deep bond of love, then why don't we say that, 'Can my other things happen when I'm sitting alone with God, deeply in love with him? Will my other things which seemingly need to happen in this world, will they happen by his grace or not?' You see? So if you were to put him as number one, or her as number one, then our question should become that: 'All I really want to do is be with him. That's all I really want to do. But in the world, it seems like I need to go from place A to place B. Will he take care of that for me?' That framing of the question puts the priorities in the right order, you see? Because otherwise it seems like—and that's what your girlfriend may also say—which is that, 'It seems like the other thing is more important. I'm incidental, like a nice-to-have.' So in spirituality, we have to make God number one. If not the only, then at least number one. So say, 'I want to spend my whole day in prayer, but also I need to get from this place to this place, but I'm not going to leave my prayer. Let's see if I get this.'

No, the prayer and like, you know, even I get distracted and things like that, it comes back. Okay, but I'm saying like, okay, I don't sit as to meditate, meditate and do prayer, but then the prayer is happening, but I'm not sitting with my eyes closed. That's what I'm asking you, like, you know, is it a compulsion on an everyday basis that, you know, you make that time like how we make time for gym or how we make time for something in a particular way? Like of course, like without making...

Okay, why do we make time for gym?

Yeah, that's you need to go. That's exactly—I got my answer in my question.

It's important to take care of the body, so we say, 'No, I need to take out some time for the gym.' But this is most important. So at least two to four hours a day where our only focus is God. Sit in a place or stand in a place—the outer position is not so important. Sitting obviously is the best, but even lying down, you see? Lying down doesn't work initially because we may fall asleep, but once you get used to praying, then even lying down is okay. Many of my days, I don't open my eyes. I just spend with God, and then when I open my eyes, I've finished, like to my heart's contentment, spending time with him. And the rest of the day then becomes a bonus. But yes, focus, dedicated time where you yourself know that you have given up this time for God and for nothing else. That you give him your full attention, your full heart in that time. It is not multitasking, it is not, you see? That your spirituality will be full of power after that. Thank you.

So the question that came—maybe you were not here the other time—was: is satsang counted? So you are the best judge of that in the sense that in satsang, if you felt really that you were with God's presence, or at least your intention was to fully be with God's presence, or were you solving some work issue or some personal fight or something in your head, you see? So it's all like that. Then maybe not. But if you really made yourself fully available to God, then yes, it can be counted. But our intention should be: how can I add, not how can I reduce? Not to reduce. Why do you want to find ways in which the target is reduced? That itself tells us something about our priorities, right? Like Jesus said this beautiful thing: 'Your heart is where your treasure is.' Your heart is where your treasure is. So if your treasure is in Maya, then your heart will be there only—like, not the spiritual heart, but you know what I mean—our preoccupation will be with the world itself.

So if our treasure is in money, then even in satsang you'll be thinking about, 'Okay, what is happening with my money? Did I get this check? Did I...?' If your heart is with romantic relationship, then even in satsang you'll be thinking about that, you see? So where is your treasure? What is the true treasure of your life? If it is God, if it is Spirit, which is what spirituality is, then we'll be looking for excuses to how can I spend more time with my beloved. This relationship doesn't get old. Worldly relationships do get old, but this relationship is ever-sweetening, ever-deepening. This is not that kind of relationship where you feel like, 'Oh, initial few weeks or months there's fire and then the fire is gone.' So we have to keep finding ways to keep the fire alive, you see? This fire, after the initial effort and difficulty, it seems to just burn brighter and brighter. Not that difficulties won't come—Maya will play all its cards—but you will never say that this has become old and boring and it needs some freshness or fire. These things happen in worldly relationships, but not in our relationship with God.

And all of it would be very simple if God had not made it about faith. And because he has made it about faith, he's created this apparent antagonist which also works in his power only, which is called Maya. So his Maya only has the role of distracting us, you see? We say, 'Oh, later, God can be later.' So how do we truly confirm that we love him or her number one? I was saying to someone yesterday that the number one determinant is time. And good you ask this question today. If you're not giving him time, the rest is all lip service. But of course, don't get into that trap of, 'Oh, my day is not going well today because I didn't do my sadhana.' Oh, this is—it's not to make your day better and it's not—I'm making no promises that your day will go a certain way or you'll win in some other way in life. You're trying to win his heart, you see? That is all that is about.

I've seen initially, especially when I started, like maybe a little after starting the spiritual journey, I got into this trap that, 'Oh, today bad things are happening to me because I didn't do my kirtan properly, I didn't do this properly.' Don't get into all that. It is—God is not to get benefit here. The benefits that come are his gifts, his grace, but they don't become entitlements. And that is not the right way to benchmark also. What is very reassuring is St. John of the Cross saying that don't think it is a higher prayer if you were able to sit undistracted for the complete hour. You were able to sit undistracted for the complete hour versus another day where there were a hundred distractions from the mind, but you kept coming back. He said—and I'm paraphrasing—but he said that it is a higher prayer where you took that step of love of returning back to God in that difficult time of prayer. So all of us have those times, right? No matter how accomplished we may be in spirituality, no matter how long we've been praying, nobody can tell me that for long periods of time every day their prayer is just blissful. I feel like you're blissfully fooling yourself if you're saying that. So there are times where it seems—and when I say prayer, I'm including the inquiry—but there are times where it seems so easy and restful.

That step of Love of returning back to God in that difficult time of prayer—so all of us have those times, right? No matter how accomplished we may be in spirituality, no matter how long we've been praying, nobody can tell me that for long periods of time every day their prayer is just blissful. You see, I feel like you're fully fooling yourself if you're saying that. So there are times where it seems—and when I say prayer, I'm including the inquiry—but there are times where it seems so easy and restful, but suddenly out of nowhere there could be a day which is fully full of distraction and not able to stay steady in your heart. So we have to go through all those ups and downs. Really, so God keeps us humble anytime we are becoming complacent and you're starting to say, 'Oh, now inquiry has become so easy. Who am I? Who am I?' and see if there's pride creeping in. He has some built-in mechanisms to prevent the pride from coming.

Okay, let me read a little bit more. I feel like this was a very good what I read today: 'It is a vivid realization of the fact that life and being in us proceed from an invisible, transcendent, and infinitely abundant Source. Contemplation is above all awareness of the reality of that Source.' Contemplation is above all awareness of the reality of that Source. So what is that? It is Atma, Brahman, the reality of that Source, the Absolute, the highest. 'It knows the Source inexplicably, but with a certitude that goes both beyond reason and beyond simple faith.' So, a very loaded line. It knows the Source obscurely, inexplicably. So already it sounds like a contradiction where he says inexplicably but with a certitude that is more than reason and simple faith. That's a unique knowledge, isn't it?

How can something be inexplicable? Like, I can't conceptualize it. I can't explain it, you see? Like even great scientists have said that you've truly understood something if you can teach it, isn't it? So they say you must try to teach it. But here you run out of words. You can't explain what it is. What is that Source? What is that reality? Okay, but it is a certitude which is beyond all images, beyond all concepts, beyond all reason, and beyond all simple faith—which means just a conceptual belief. So when he says simple faith, that's why he used the word 'simple,' because it is beyond just a belief that 'I believe in a God.' So I must be able to not just... it's beyond that certitude. That's why these sages are so irritating, because they don't shake from the fact of His reality. Because that certitude is a certitude from that intuitive center, the Atma telling you, like certainty, certainty. It's like a certain fact that He is that in which this whole universe is born.

And somebody says, 'Prove it.' I can't prove it. All of this is the projection of His light. Bhagavan said, 'Find out in whose light do you experience the light of the sun.' And say the light of that Atma, the light of that being, that Consciousness. Somebody says, 'Prove it. Where is that light? There's no light like that.' You can't prove it. But the one who has seen this—'seen' in quotes—for themselves in the light of the Atma within, they have full certitude about it. Nobody can convince them that, 'No, no, actually it is some other light.' Then they say, 'But how do you know? How are you so sure?' I can't tell you, I just know. So in the world, it can sound like utter foolishness also. This one is just believing something without really knowing.

But it's... so a sage may sound foolish in the world because he has no conceptual basis or perceptual basis for his claims or her claims, you see? But there's a deep inner certitude which they can't question. So that is the contemplation. That is the gift of contemplation as well as the process of contemplation where this vivid realization of the fact that life and being in us proceed from an invisible, transcendent, and infinitely abundant Source. So it is above all the awareness of the reality of that Source. So how is it that a Vedantin says the same thing, and a Christian says the same thing, and a Muslim says the same thing, and a Sikh says the same thing, and a Jew says the same thing, but just different terminology? Because that's what the inner environment looks like. That's what they find when they go inside. So all the anukis, all the inward-facing ones, will come to the same insight, just different language, because this truth is universal.

Are you all enjoying this as much as I am, or is it just taking some effort? Okay, let me see if I can make it worth... English is challenging. The English is challenging. That's why I'll try and simplify. So just worry about what I'm saying. 'For contemplation is a kind of spiritual vision to which both reason and faith aspire by their very nature, because without it they always remain incomplete.' I'll explain that now. Suppose you are highly intellectual. You want to get to the bottom of everything, understand how everything works. So you try physics, you try chemistry, biochemistry, everything you learn. But you will never meet a scientist who's got the contented smile of a sage. Is there still a deeper problem to solve? We figure out it's like this, but you don't know why it's like that. You're able to make some report on this is how things happen, this is how relativity seems to show up, this is what gravity is—not a force, it's something else—whatever they say.

But that contentment of Brahman, where the intellect comes at a rest... so the intellect, it's always grasping, grasping, grasping, more, more, more, more, wanting more, more. What is the point at which it comes to a standstill? It is that point of 'I am that I am.' Because after that, there's nowhere to go. You've transcended time and space. But when this becomes heart knowledge, then we come to the fruition of life. All our grasping for knowledge, all our grasping for understanding stops. But there's a loving deepening of insight. Of course, it is not static or robotic. And suppose one is a bhakta, you see? They're reading up on the lives of the great sages. They're reading up about Namdev and Mirabai and Tulsidas Ji and St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross and so many, so many beautiful lovers of God, bhaktas of God. But till they taste it for themselves, it doesn't give you the joy, doesn't give you the satisfaction, contentment, you see?

So what he's saying is, it is in this being in this holy heart temple for God, in the quiet contemplation of God, that is what brings us true contentment. In even these human aspects of our being, our intellect becomes Shanti. In our wanting to love, it comes to Shanti. Many times, all our external grasping for love, grasping for understanding, we're just not feeling the spiritual contentment in our hearts. Just this is what you really want. Many times—not always—it could be also driven from the heart. That's what Thomas Merton is saying here. So he's saying that, 'For contemplation is a kind of spiritual vision to which both reason and faith aspire by their very nature, because without it they always remain incomplete.' See what it said? 'Yet contemplation is not vision because it sees without seeing.' It's not vision because it sees without seeing and knows without knowing.

So we spent at least six months to a year in satsang saying, 'Find that instrument which is not perception and it is not conceptualization or intellect.' What is that instrument? Only with that light can you see the truth. The Guru is called the bringer of light. It is that Atma which brings the light which can shine a light on the Nirguna, on the invisible, on the quality-less. Otherwise, Gurus would have been replaced by some halogen lights or something like that. It's not just a question of some physical light, but it's a unique light of the Atma itself which teaches you when we are being contemplative about that Divine vision which is not seeing, which is not sight, and neither is it intellectual. So, 'sees without seeing and knows without knowing. It is a more profound depth of faith, a knowledge too deep to be grasped in images, in words, or even in clear concepts.'

We talked about that. It can be suggested by words, by symbols, but in the very moment of trying to indicate what it knows, the contemplative mind takes back what it has said and denies what it has affirmed. Okay, so let me explain that in simpler language. The words of satsang are pointers, you see? But none of the pointers should be taken to be a truth in themselves. Like in satsang when I was younger, I used to say everything that I'm saying is basically Harpic, okay? It is meant to do the cleanup, but you can't put Harpic in a temple. So don't make idols out of the words that you hear in satsang. It is only to point, to clean up misunderstanding. So that's what Merton is also saying. He's saying that we can point, point, we can't really capture the truth in words, but we can point to it. And but in the pointing itself, if you take it to be something sacrosanct, then it'll be denied. It's not like that.

So if you tell... especially Advaita, so they may have said two minutes back, 'God is everything.' Then if you try to build a castle on that, 'God is everything,' and you say, 'But Maharaj, you said God is everything,' they'll say, 'No, there is nothing. There is nothing,' you see? Then two minutes later, if you try to build a framework around 'there is nothing,' see, all of this is gone. That is what he's saying, that because these are pointers, but remember that none of the pointers by themselves actually contain any truth. They just point you as to the way to look, you see? And what is needed at that point? 'It can be suggested by words, by symbols, but in the very moment of trying to indicate what it knows, the contemplative mind takes back what it has said and denies what it has affirmed.'

What is the biggest frustration in Advaita? One time when a child came to me, she was from South Africa, and she said that, 'I spent the last few months reading talks with Ramana, and I thought a good report is coming now.' Since in the last few months she had read mostly every talk with Ramana, she said, 'But I'm so upset with him. I'm so upset with him because one time he says like this, the other time he says the opposite of that. Then he says like that, then he says the opposite of that.' So that is what you need to understand, that pointers are pointing us in a way, a graceful way, as to where we need to look. But the pointer itself can never become truth and cannot be taken to be the truth. So our intellect complains, but we have to go beyond the intellect.

Suppose you came to satsang and I offered you a completely coherent framework of spirituality that you can understand step like this, like this, like this—this is it, now you've understood the whole truth. That would be a great disservice to all of you, because what is needed is understanding from a deeper place, from the Atma within. 'For in contemplation we know by unknowing.' We know by unknowing. So empty conceptual emptiness, to let things go, is how true knowledge starts to bloom in our hearts. 'Or better, we know beyond all knowing or unknown knowing.' Isn't that beautiful? Don't value conceptual knowing so much, and even don't get into the trap of trying to know unknowingly. Leave that also. Leave both hands, then you come to the innocence of an infant, then true Atma Gyan can unfold.

Poetry, music, and art have something in common with the contemplative experience. Sorry, but contemplation is beyond aesthetic intuition, beyond art, beyond poetry. Indeed, it is also beyond philosophy and beyond speculative theology. This part you can see. Sometimes art is a deeper experience than like a concept. Somebody may love a painting and the rest of the world may hate it. Why do you love it? You don't really know. Something you feel something because of it, or something draws you, you keep staring at it, you don't know why. You see the work of art. Music also is... everybody has unique taste in music and these things are not explainable. But the sage is telling us that these things may seem similar, but spiritual contemplation is beyond all of these things. It's a deeper place than even a love for art or music or creativity.

Why do you love it? You don't really know. Something you feel something because of it, or something draws you. You keep staring at it; you don't know why. You see the work of art. Music also is—everybody has unique taste in music and these things are not explainable. But the sage is telling us that these things may seem similar, but spiritual contemplation is beyond all of these things. It's a deeper place than even a love for art or music, creativity, even philosophy. And again, he's saying that it resumes, transcends, and fulfills them all, and yet at the same time it seems in a certain way to deny them all. Contemplation is always beyond our own knowledge, beyond our own light, beyond systems, beyond explanations, beyond discourse, beyond dialogue, beyond our own self. What does this remind us all? It reminds me of the Neti Neti, at least.

Exactly.

So Neti Neti is the full 'no' of everything, you see? It doesn't spare anything. So it's exactly like that: not this, not this, not this. Exactly. Very good. To enter into the realm of contemplation—because that should be our question now, isn't it? He's given us all the benefits, all the features, benefits, it's everything. Now our question should be: okay, I want this, how do I do this? To enter the realm of contemplation, one must, in a certain sense, die. Sorry, not good news, but isn't that what satsang is? To enter the realm of contemplation one must, in a certain sense, die. But the good news is this death is, in fact, the entrance into a higher life. Yeah, very powerful word.

So when we credit either Rahim Ji or Kabir Ji with the statement that the lane is too narrow—if there is me, there cannot be God, and if there is God, there cannot be me—that is what this sage is also saying. Unless we become empty of ourselves, or at least have the intention to be empty of ourselves, we cannot, in selfishness, in pride, we cannot meet this realm of contemplation, of inquiry. So we must leave the lane empty for God, and then we leave our zombie life because we're not really alive without God, without Spirit, without Atma. Not really alive. So that's what he means by the higher life. The true life just begins at that age. It doesn't matter what age. After we lead a contemplative life, we lead a life of being in God's presence. Isn't the whole spiritual part so beautifully encapsulated in these words? I feel it's very—what a potent essay. Just tuck, tuck, tuck, everything is.

It is a death for the sake of life which leaves behind all that we can know or treasure as life. You see, that's the clue. We have to leave behind all that we know and treasure to meet the true life. What all do we have to leave behind? As thought, as experience, as joy, and even as being. Even a being. See, my Atma also belongs to you; I leave that also. Everything has to be surrendered. And another—many sages have said this: live as if you were never born. You don't exist. There is nothing to you. It is open and empty. The unborn. Master Bankei said, 'The Unborn.' You were never born. And so contemplation seems to supersede and to discard every other form of intuition and experience, whether in art, in philosophy, in theology, in liturgy, or in ordinary levels of love and of belief.

So all this worldly love, worldly belief, all of that doesn't come close to this. This rejection is, of course, only apparent. Contemplation is and must be compatible with all these things, for it is the highest fulfillment. But in the actual experience of contemplation, all other experiences must be momentarily lost. That, although it is the fulfillment of all of these things, you see, but if you expect them to be the fulfillment of it—'Oh, such great beauty because it is a fulfillment of art, such great knowledge because it is the fulfillment of philosophy'—then we'll never come to that place. All of this must be lost.

And actually, contemplation becomes the core.

Exactly. It cannot be for any other means, for any other outcomes. So we become empty for God's sake. We become empty for truth's sake. And then you have the experience of merging and the experience of oneness where every phenomenal thing in the universe seems to dissolve. The sage says 'momentarily' because in time it seems like a moment, but that holy awakening is a timeless moment, always here. So everything, all experiences, are momentarily lost. In other words, then, contemplation reaches out to the knowledge and even to the experience of the Transcendent and inexpressible God. So when all else seem to dissolve, we meet that Transcendent and inexpressible God. What is that? Absolute. The highest Nirguna Brahman.

So that is the very essence of contemplation: to come to the truth of the nature of reality. It knows God by seeming to touch him, or rather it knows him as if it had been invisibly touched by him. Beautiful. Touched by him who has no hands but who is pure reality and the source of all that is real. That's the fruit of our spiritual endeavor, isn't it? To come to the realization of the highest. Seeking myself, I come to the realization of God, and seeking God, I come to the realization of myself—capital S. Hence, contemplation is the sudden gift of awareness and awakening to the real within all that is real. A vivid awareness of infinite being at the roots of our own very limited being.

That is the great gift, isn't it? When we start our spiritual life, we cannot imagine the enormity that exists within ourselves. Our being seems so limited, so tiny. It seems like I'm just a body-mind. But with our faith, as we deepen, as we go within, we find an infinite being. In the light of the Atma, we find the Saguna Brahman, the infinite being within us, within myself. Not containable in this body, not containable in this entire universe. In fact, the universe can be said to be its body. This is what lives within you: infinite being.

The questions that came up many times—that is the process of Manana itself. To answer questions using the tools which are traditional is the process of Manana itself. So the arising, the coming up of the questions and the answering of them in our mind-intellect is the process of Manana itself. Then we come to a place where we hit a dead end, like no matter what we may do, we cannot find this holy place in which God lives within ourselves, you see? So you may ask all the questions you want, you may try to answer them conceptually as much as you want, but you come to an innocence because you see that there is no place for pride here. No matter what you do, you cannot answer this question: where does God live within you? You may say, 'In my heart,' and all those words may be fancy, but they will not have the living breath in them. They will not have the living experience in them.

So you know this for yourself, and then your arms become open. Surrender. And whether the prayer comes in the form of words or it is wordless, you come into the refuge of God. And if it is his will, it is his grace, then the answer which is beyond the intellect, beyond the mind, reveals itself to us.

That's not why you do the contemplation, is it? For that answer, or just—is the answer always God?

That may be the outer seeming purpose. They say, 'Show me this place.' But what he shows you is exactly what you need, not necessarily in response to what you asked. So in your heart, it is God who makes love and life. So in this process of being empty for him, you may end at the end of it—after it's over, during it you really can't say anything—but you may say, 'I asked this question, but I didn't really get an answer, but why do I feel so much love?' Sometimes the answer comes in the form of that holy light. It shows us what our eyes cannot see. And sometimes the answer comes in so many different ways, but it is the answer that we need most. Because in our mind, in our intellect, we don't even really know what to ask. So he doesn't limit himself based on that, no. He gives us the answer that we need at that point of time, whether we realize it or not.

So many times, if you were to do a post-contemplation reflection, what your reflections are may have nothing intellectually to do with that initial contemplation, the initial meditation. Sometimes it's good to see, to even write that down. But most of it is actually wordless anyway.

Is it a bad idea to have that intent?

No, it's not. It's not. Yes. In fact, your prayer can be very specific to that also, especially if the intention is so holy. Like if your prayer is, 'I want to meet you in my heart where you live. I know that a great sage like the sages of Advaita said this; she could not have been lying. If you have given that insight to her, please bless me with that as well.' So it can be very specific, but the response is up to him. In fact, after this, Merton is going to share that it is our calling him, but actually our contemplation is our response to his calling us. He's calling us through the inner voice which, in the blare of Maya, we don't hear that inner calling anymore, you see? For some, grace comes upon us; we come into this place where we make ourselves available to be with him. It is our response. And the whole play, or the whole Leela that Krishna played of playing the flute and the Gopis coming, is representative of him calling us in the heart, you see? And we're just supposed to run to him in deep love, like the Gopis were. So this call is for all. It is said in A Course in Miracles: 'All are called, but few choose to listen.' So this is the great love story of spirituality.

I want to thank you. The question is on finding God inside ourselves, and that has largely been the journey in the last few years. But I'm always curious from a real Advaita standpoint of God is in me versus everything is God and I am in God. You know, that flip, if you want to call it that. And maybe it's not a flip. I've never experienced anything like that. It's mostly been the world and, yeah, there's this being or this entity, and inside of that, if everything goes well and I'm available and, you know, grace happens, then I feel it inside me. Yeah. But that—maybe it's a fantasy, I don't know—that's never happened. I shouldn't say never; it's happened a couple of times where, and it was bizarre, and what I'm trying to share is maybe it's just my imagination, but I thought I'll share it anyway.

It's like I was walking backwards in the flight in the aisle going to the bathroom in the back, and I had all these faces looking at me with their eyes open, like a hundred of them. And then something happened, like everything just collapsed, and I felt like consciousness is just looking at this thing, this is looking back all through these eyes, and everything is one. That's happened a few times in the aircraft, and it's never been planned; it just happens. And it happens many times in nature, but it's very fleeting. Yeah. I—that's the closest I think I have. It's just happened. And you think it's just imagination or...

Yeah, so these experiences come and they're beautiful. But nobody—the sage will not say that, at least I feel that the sages will not say that their experience is always that they are looking through every eye, they're everywhere. You know, for me, I must say that it's more like in a dream. When we recognize it's a dream, it is not always that in our mind we're repeating, 'This is a dream, this is a dream.' Once that recognition is there, we know it's a dream, and therefore we know all this is happening within myself. In the same way, a sage knows that this is a dream and all of this is happening within themselves. It's not a conceptual knowing, but it's more like this intuitive sense that everything that is appearing, including this body-mind, it's just appearance within themselves.

Actually, now that I reflect on it, another time it's happened is I was at a retreat and we were made to sit opposite each other and look into each other's eyes. And I think the question was, 'Who are you?' or 'What do you want?' or something like that. But there's something interesting that happens when you look into somebody's eyes in a very open way. Some magic there. There's something which is unseen.

Everything that is appearing, including this body, body-mind, it's just appearance within themselves. Actually, now that I reflect on it, another time it's happened is I was at a retreat and we were made to sit opposite each other, yeah, and look into each other's eyes. And I think the question was 'Who are you?' or 'What do you want?' or something like that. But there's something interesting that happens when you look into somebody's eyes in a very open way. Yeah, some magic there. There's something which is unexplainable.

In the highest, I feel, is the glance of the Guru, the glance of the teacher. And to be with that glance is something that we can never explain. Also to look into the eyes of a child or even a pet.

Exactly what I was going to say. With a child, I'm saying that there's so much unconditional love which is pouring out of that. As we grow in the world and so-called maturity, then we lose a lot of our innocence. We're not even able to do that. That's why it has to be designed, like somebody has to tell you in a retreat, 'Now you look into each other's eyes,' see? Because we lose that innocence, we lose that freedom. It seems unnerving almost to do that.

But in satsang, very often you will see that most of the sharing is happening through the eyes, very little through the words. And of course, just by being together in remembrance of God, we grow a lot, we deepen a lot. But a lot of the insight comes in the so-called transmission and things like that.

Yeah, this insight that comes, yeah, it's different from knowing. Exactly, yeah. And then, and then knowing what you mentioned in the—like in the auto—there is... so when the insight comes, it comes, it goes. It just seems to be glimpses and it seems to fan the fire a little bit of staying with it. And I think so much that it's all about the desire, the will to stay in that space, right? Yeah. And then when there is that knowing, yeah, then there's no... then you're always in that space.

Okay, let's dive into this. This is beautiful contemplation. So just to demystify the word 'knowing' first. So we are in the framework of this question; we are not talking about any conceptual knowing or anything that we know perceptually. So that we have left behind. That there's a deeper inner knowing, in a way, of the knowingness itself, of the awareness itself, in which you sense the sense of 'I am,' of being, of presence itself. I am, no? So I am knowing itself in a holy way, not in the traditional way. Is the knowing what you're talking about, isn't it? This is the knowing, capital K, knowing self-knowledge.

So now, what is an insight then? An insight is like a piece of a fragment of guidance from the Atma, from this presence of God within. It says, 'Look in this way' or 'This is...' How many times insight comes where we understand, but we are not yet able to even conceptualize it for ourselves. Like many times in satsang where I feel like something is bubbling up but the words aren't yet there to communicate. So something has been met. So the knowing of ourselves, our reality, and even the infinite being—so the Nirguna and the Saguna knowing of that—on paper sound like a finality. You know, that's the full stop. After that, what's that?

So it's a finality in the sense of the grasping, that we no longer find ourselves grasping. Because with this instrument, intuition, we can't grasp really. We can't really put more effort into intuiting or less effort into intuiting. It just has to bloom organically. So there is no grasping left really. But there is an ever-deepening of insight, and it answers like an ever-deepening of faith, for example. Now how would we define that? Ever-deepening of surrender, ever-deepening of trust. So we are learning, see, but we don't have the words for what we are learning necessarily.

So those are insights that in the last two years, I would say that have been given by grace. So many insights on humility, on faith, on patience, on courage, which should not have happened because by God's grace the supposedly final insight happened some time ago. But it is not linear in that way, you see. It's ever, ever-deepening, ever-sweetening. And more importantly, I feel that I feel today I love God more than I ever have in the past, and I hope I can say that tomorrow as well. So it's an ever-deepening of love and light, and light being the insight. So that love is a constant deepening, a constant sweetening. And I feel really that last year I would have said I love God so deeply, but I didn't love God at all last year. Now today I'm loving God, and maybe next year I'll say the same thing about this one, hopefully, if it is His grace. Because I know for one thing—I'm scared to say for sure—but there is no end to this love. It's infinite. I can keep drinking this Ganga jal from the Ganga, but the Ganga will not run out.

So both in terms of knowledge, capital K knowledge, as well as love, we are going deeper and deeper into that, all in the overall space of the knowing, the true knowingness itself. Insights like flowers or like bubbles keep showing up. The next chapter that is written is what contemplation is not. That's also very nice. Maybe next time we do, although this I read only half the...

When you said that today I'm loving God more than ever before and I hope to see that tomorrow, next time or tomorrow is even... so that sounded like good news for you, but for me it is like I started doubting today's love also. Because today's... yesterday's love which I thought was the best is not the best. Today's love also I'm doubting that. I'm sorry for that.

It is... no, I understand. I understand. Many times that which is meant to just inspire and light some fire, that can be twisted by the intellect. But you know, look at you, look at you. You know, just know that I'm saying it not as like, 'Oh, I, Ananta, am loving.' I'm saying it only because that is how all of us can live, you see. And this is what I've learned, that this love for God just keeps deepening if you just allow ourselves to surrender, just allow ourselves to go. Also, what... instead of the checker guy—this is a tip for all of you—when you hear something like that, just instead of the checker guy making a report card and convincing you this is where you are, allow that to just set fire to you inside. Just like, 'Oh, I can love God right now more than I ever have before!'

And how to love God if you don't know? Like this question was asked few months back, I feel, rather ask me first, and it's been a contemplation. So this is an example of insight. That initially it feels like, 'But how can I? How can I produce love? I don't have the capacity to create love.' The first answer that came in His light, just naturally in satsang, was just by remembering Him. Just like you see a small child and then love comes for that child automatically. If you see a photo also, it comes. So remembrance is one way. But then I've been learning that remembrance, gratitude is a beautiful way to love God. Just to give thanks. We have so much to give thanks for. Every moment we can be thankful to God for something. Even if the day is very bad and we're having a very terrible, oppressive day, we can say thank you that I have this breath. My next breath is here, you see. I can breathe. My heart is beating. Thank you for that.

Because these days we're seeing so many reports of such young people just letting go of their lives, you know, just getting heart attacks and stress diseases and all of these things, you see. But that I have life, I have... I am alive, I'm so grateful. So that gratitude can bring us love naturally. But the insight which is so, so beautiful came from this book, 'Heaven in Faith,' which was that she said, 'To love God, all you have to do is allow Him to love you.' Isn't that beautiful? This is an example also of deepening insight. So you feel like you don't love God enough? Allow Him to love you more. Just show up like a little boy. Leave your grown-up maturity, leave it. It seems valuable in the world; it's not. Actually, if you have to just act like children, just show up. Just when you're alone in your room, just show up like this for 'Love me.' That self-consciousness has to go. All this we learned only as grown-ups: 'I have to be like proper.' So satsang firstly is the safe space. You can just... if you're sitting like this the entire time, nobody's going to judge you or blame you. They're going to probably get inspired or jealous, one of the two things. But so yes, feel free. Whatever it takes.

We spend so much time in this room together and on the Zoom together, so just feel free during this time too. Rahim said something very beautiful. He said that whatever it may be, just you keep yourself in a content state of mind. Don't allow this—I'm paraphrasing and saying—don't allow this mind to bully you into negativity, into unworthiness, into doubt. You just like, 'Okay, I don't know how to love God. He has to fix it. I'm here. I don't know.' Just keep yourself in a fragrant frame of reference, you know? So that... what do you want to welcome God with? What do you want to welcome God with? What is the incense you want to burn? There's love, there's joy, there's peace, there's gratitude, there's faith, there's humility. There's so many beautiful incense. Which one you want to buy from me? All these are attractive to Him.

Okay, thank you. Let's see, somebody has their hand up. Okay, let's go to Irshad. Irshad? When they put the hand up by mistake, we wait. Let's come back to them. Here you are, here, my dear. Okay, let's go to you. Can you hear me?

Yes, yes, my dear. Yeah, so I have a question. This feverish thinking, which... how to explain it? Sometimes when I'm in the presence, I am very joyful, very happy, but I get a small sense that that state is very naive. And then it's like something will happen, it brings me back to my old usual self with feverish thinking. And the thinking, in my opinion, is somehow protecting the body and helping it make good decisions. Can you please explain a little bit more about this feverish thinking? For example, I have serious doubts.

Yes, thinking, yes. So you say that you come into this very joyful place in your inquiry, in your prayer, and then something convinces you that that's very naive, you can't live like that, you see. But that which the mind is calling naive is the very innocence you need to have to be with God. Only the children will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And this innocence which is coming as God's gift to you, don't allow the mind to devalue that and call it naivity. If that is naivity, may God bless everyone with that naivity. So don't exchange that for feverish thinking.

Now, if you have the advantage first of being in that joyful, holy place, then thinking by itself doesn't instantly become feverish, you see. The mind has one limitation, like this mouth: it can only speak one concept at a time. It may speak very fast, like this, like this, like this, next one, this one, this—all of that. But it can only try to sell you one idea, one idea, one idea. It may repeat the idea, you see. So the more you add fuel to it with your attention and belief, the more feverish it will seem to become. And instead of running away when it is that feverish, you should try and welcome it and say, 'All right, I'm here now. What do you have for me?' Can we try doing that now? What does it have for you now?

I understand that the innocence is what's required, and it shows itself energetically as well. I become very free. But the issue is with other human beings, with decisions that I need to make. I don't know how to navigate it. Like, I have only relied on my inner voice, and when that subsides and the mind becomes in those moments incredibly silent, yeah, it's just how to navigate it without the inner voice? Like, how to make decisions?

Yes, yes, okay. So what you're calling the inner voice at the moment seems to be the voice of the mind, which is telling you, 'Do this, go left, go right.'

Well, I become very free, but the issue is with other human beings, with decisions that I need to make. I don't know how to navigate it. Like, I have only relied on my inner voice, and when that subsides and the mind becomes, in those moments, incredibly silent, yeah, it's just how to navigate it without the inner voice. Like, how to make decisions?

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so what you're calling the inner voice at the moment seems to be the voice of the mind, which is telling you, 'Do this, go left, go right, book the ticket, don't book the ticket, travel, don't travel,' whatever it may be saying. Now, if you remain empty, which is to allow this voice to come and go, do you find that life comes to a stand? Your body comes to a standstill? You don't move, you don't eat, you don't function?

I mean, I function, but in a—how can I say—in a less stressful way. For example, I couldn't make some important decision in that state because doubts immediately come.

Yeah, yeah. Now, firstly, remember that that beautiful functioning which is happening independent of your mental intervention—if a choice was given to you saying that, 'Would you want all that functioning to stop and for you to pick only those things which you want to make happen?' nobody would ever pick that. Because millions of things are functioning without the intervention of our mind. Our breathing is functioning, our heart is beating; there are so many different processes that are unfolding. Even if we take ourselves to be just the body—if you take ourselves to be this entire universe as our body—then there are uncountable things which are moving for us in this very moment without needing any mental intervention.

Now, if you allow yourself to remain empty and you truly surrender to God and say, 'You move me' or 'You guide me,' one of two things will happen. One is that He will move you, or second is that—and mostly the second happens after some time—which is that you will start to hear another inner voice, which is a voice which is accompanied with love. It is drenched in love and peace and joy, which is something that the mind can pretend, but you can never taste love in the mind's oppressive guidance. But you'll hear another deeper voice which is full of love, patience; it fills your heart up. That is your true inner voice. Till then, allow His light to move you, His love to move you, and don't worry about any outcome.

It needs a lot of courage. It needs faith. The mind will bully you; it will say, 'You're wasting your life.' But to learn to live in His will is not a 'nice to have'; it is a 'must have' in spirituality. To follow His will—Union or recognition of Oneness cannot happen without the intent, at least, to only follow His will. And His will will express itself when you are in His presence and He moves you, or it'll also express itself usually later, as we mature in our spirituality, in the form of a heart guidance. The heart which will prod you, will nudge you to move in a particular way. So there will be a period of confusion, there will be a period of doubt, your mind will throw everything at you, but you have to be strong and you have to say that unless it comes from God, I'm not moving.

You miss a flight? Okay, you miss a flight. You miss something important? You miss something important. But that faith, that expression of love for God, counts for something. And allow yourself to surrender your individual will, your mind's direction, to God's will. And the more you allow that to happen, the more natural it will seem. Soon it'll become—well, 'soon' is relative—but it will become that you have a compass in your heart which gently tells you in which direction to go. So our life becomes lighter; it becomes without the stress, the push-pull of decision making where it seems like you need to make decisions, but your heart compass will show you which way. And you're no longer scared of saying, 'I don't know.'

Many times in the Satsang, children ask me questions: 'Will you do this? Will you go there? Will you be here? What is going to happen tomorrow?' I just say, 'I don't know,' unless I feel in my heart that some answer is there. So don't be scared to not know where your life is going. It's not easy, and I'm not at all telling you it's easy, but it's worth it.

Basically faith. So basically I need to have faith.

That faith, yes, yes, yes. Thank you. And the courage to just meet whatever outcome. Don't expect that if you surrender yourself to God, then things have to go according to some idea that your mind tells you, that, 'Okay, I surrender to God, so now everything should go good for me.' You see? 'Everything should be going in the direction that I want.' We don't know actually what is good for us. In our mind, the only way to judge what is good for me is where it comes from. And if it comes from God, then it is good for me. If it comes from my pride, from my ego, from my selfishness, then as good as it may seem in the world, it is not good for me. So don't burden your surrender under a checking of the outcomes of good or bad, because that is not a true surrender. That is like a surrender with one eye open, which is just checking for, 'How did this go? How did this go?' and trying to figure out whether God did a good job or not. That is not—we don't have the capacity for that. Okay? Very thank you, dear.

Okay, let's go to—Namaste, my dear.

Namaste, Father. Namaste. Father, I just wanted to share with you that since EDS came into this one's life, it's been a bit of a struggle of which name to take. Because before EDS, all the names were so—you know, I was in love with the bhajan and the bhajan of Rama Krishna. And I mean, growing up in that, you know, Ganesha and God was a form, and the love was for that Rama Krishna and Ma. And now I feel when I'm doing EDS with just Ram Ji, I feel as if, you know, I'm missing Krishna's energy. And I love to Hari Hari Krishna, and I love just being with Hari Hari Krishna as a mantra. So it's just—I just wanted your guidance, Father. How do I just—because I know God is not a form, but yet because growing up in this culture, it was so linked with Ram, Sita, and Krishna, Radha, and all forms are so beautiful that choosing a name is feeling as if I'm abandoning. Yes, yes, I know this very well. I need guidance. How do I navigate this? It's almost like when you just said that Hanuman Ji said that you don't know, and I said I might as well just not see anything. Then I thought I'll just put it at your feet and ask you, how do I do that?

Very good, very good. So I'll tell—can I tell you a little bit of a story first? Or maybe you've not heard this. For me, my whole spiritual life will look like this where, a long time ago, I was with the Art of Living foundation. So there, there was a lot of emphasis on Shiva, and I used to love chanting Om Namah Shivaya, Om Namah Shivaya. And the first time you chant any mantra with devotion or any name of God with devotion, you feel like, 'This is it,' you know? 'This is what I was waiting for all my life.' It can feel like that. Then after a few weeks, the mind starts: 'You're chanting Shiva, but you've always been a Ram bhakt. I feel the mind has fooled you. Come back on track, you know, try Ram.' Say, 'Okay, let's try Ram.' Then you start Ram, feel like, 'Wow, I've never felt this good before. This is so deep.' You know, I feel like, 'Okay, okay, not Om Namah Shivaya.'

Then what happened after two weeks? Same thing. That actually you were going towards the pure, highest Nirguna emptiness of Shiva, and you exchanged it. Shiva has always been your Om Namah Shivaya. You switched. Now, the good news is that God knows how we are. So anything that we do in any way remembering Him, all are His aspects only. So really we don't have to worry that much. More practically speaking, what you could do is that use Ram in your EDS and use Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna as your Arati at the end. So seven Krishna at the end and Ram. There's no—there's no conflict there, there's no nothing to worry there. Especially, right, even if you were to be traditional about it, both are incarnations of Vishnu, so nothing to worry. So you can say the EDS to Lord Ram and finish with the seven Krishna. That's completely fine.

That solves a big burden on my heart because I was feeling like, you know, the love for Krishna is—is then, you know, I'm just—it's just the mind sometimes, Father, that just brings up these funny questions even though the love can be so powerful whether it's Rama or Krishna. And I started my spiritual journey too with Art of Living, so I know that Om Namah Shivaya was such a profound mantra that sometimes I still go back to, Father. So it's just—yeah, just thank you, Father. Thank you so much.

Really, fundamentally, at the end of the day, we have nothing to worry because whether we say 'Dad' or we say 'Pop' or we say 'Pita,' He knows who we are calling. So we don't have to—thankfully, He is not at our level of intellect, so He knows very well what our intention is. So really we don't have to worry. But these kind of questions are very—they can bother us in our practice, and I feel like this is a nice, sweet, elegant solution for you.

Thank you, Father. Father, also before I go, I just want your blessings to immerse more deeply in my sadhana, in my EDS, because I do feel that I get—I don't give it as much time which the Beloved deserves in my heart, and I cut corners and I miss my practice. So Father, please bless so that I can be more consistent. Thank you, Father.

All my blessings, my child. All my blessings.

Thank you, Father. Welcome.

Okay, let's go to Sam. Can you—sorry, no problem.

I think I just wanted to connect with you. I don't have a specific question or something. Yeah, of course, there are so much waves are always here, comes and goes. But one thing during such time, it just touched my heart so much that you said, 'Just allow God to love you.' Yes, yes. After that, I cried a lot. And actually, I heard it also in the New Year. There was just some feast in the church, which I was not go so much, and I don't know, maybe it's called a preacher, someone just talking about this, you know, just the same thing with you. And he also mentioned that, like, sometimes we just try so hard to be beloved even by God. And I mean, the whole talk was too long, but this is the only thing that I remember. And now again you said, and I don't know, it's just a prayer and just to bring myself to God that I—I'm up for this.

Very, very, very. It's such an important—I'm so grateful to Elizabeth of the Trinity that she wrote this in her book, and it really touched me. I felt like I also cried for a bit after hearing this. True innocence. It's got surrender, love, emptiness—all that is needed for us to be with God is contained in this beautiful instruction to allow God to love us. Very, very beautiful.

Yeah, isn't it such a gift, such a privilege that He makes Himself present in a way that we can meet His love, perceive His love? That's another thing. Ananda Buddha said that He knows only how to be full of grace and mercy towards us. He's not just at all; thankfully, He's just full of love and mercy toward us. So in Hindi, he said, which means that His mercy is shining always for us, is available always for us. We just have to allow. We just have to allow.

I don't even know how to allow. So even for this, I'm asking for help. This 'I don't know' is the allow and love. This is my prayer. Even allowing is just too much.

Yes, very, very, very. Thank you. And today you also mentioned that just to feel gratitude is like remembering God and connecting with God. And I just want to thank God, of course, for everything, but today I felt like I just want to thank God for Himself. For Him.

Yes, very, very, very beautiful. To thank God just for Him. Beautiful. Yes, not even for any of His gifts. Yes, very. Love you, my child.

You too. Thanks for you, which is no other.

Thank you for you too. Bless you. Okay, let's go to Ram. Ram, I think I'm catching up with you after a long time and, yeah, glad to see you in good health again.

Oh, thank you, thank you. I had a question about, you know, the mind runs towards the samsara either because it's real or something is to be gained. Yeah, both usually. And another tendency I have seen is if I...

Thank God just for Him. Beautiful, yes. Not even for any of His gifts. Yes, very, very love you, my child. You too. Thanks for you, which is no other. Thank you for you too. Bless you. Okay, let's go to Ram Ji. I think I'm catching up with you after a long time and yeah, glad to see you in good health again.

Oh, thank you, thank you. I had a question about, you know, the mind runs towards the samsara either because it's real or something is to be gained. Yeah, both usually. And another tendency I have seen is if I find a fault with anything, you know, be it universe, maybe roads, potholes, traffic—every time I complain about something, the psychological mind keeps taking birth. Yeah, right. But then another thing which I observed is the moment I stop finding fault with anything, the mind is available right here. So, just observation I saw is the past is perfect, the future also is perfect, the mind comes automatically to the now. Yeah, so that is one thing which I have seen. But the question still remains: does the mind come now? Now, just now, now, now. If you just keep doing 'now, now' like this, it won't come, right? But then what happens is if I have something to gain from the past or the future, either desire or something, then again the mind keeps going. Though in your presence it may be here, but offline it'll do its business unless I accept that, you know, there is no fault either in the future or in the past, it is perfect; then the mind doesn't see a need to take birth. So it seems to me. Yeah, but still the question that comes is what I've heard is that it can be a Manonasha, but Manonasha only happens if there is a love for God.

Love for God, yeah. We must question all the reporting on Manonasha first. Who will say after Manonasha, 'I had this,' and with what instrument? I don't feel like even the stillness can really come without any love for God. Love for God is a prerequisite of spirituality. We cannot be at peace without whatever little love that we have being there. Sometimes we don't realize how much we love God; that could also be so. But you can't be that strategic about it because, you know that if you ask a girl out, propose to her just because you want her money, then it's not love, isn't it? Right. You cannot say to God, 'Oh, now I want to go from Laya to Nasha, so now I need to love You.' That is not love then.

Well, I don't have any other parameter in the sense. Yeah, I want to have the joy and—

What is your—remind me, what is your—do you have a sadhana of some sort that you're doing? Inquiry?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do some japa, I do some inquiry, but I don't know to what extent.

But right, just keep doing that. Try to do at least two hours every day. All this, many times what happens is that the sages seem so virtuous to us that it seems impossible, no? But if you read their stories, if you read their biography, they tell us that they were not virtuous at all to begin with, most of their lives, most of the sages. How did they become virtuous? How did they become loving, kind, patient, courageous, faithful? All these sound so intimidating initially that we feel like, 'But I can't do any of this.' So the beauty is that the more time we give to God, then He grows these virtues in us. So we may feel like—I also always felt this—how these sages like Mirabai love God so much? I feel like I can never get to that point. Dhruva love God so much, Ram so much. How can I get to that point? It seems very intimidating. But what we have to do is the more time we spend with Him, He, in His loving us, He provides us the love back to love Him. Look at it that way also. So the more just focus on giving Him time, the rest He will take care of.

Again, you said two hours. I can't assure you that.

Yes, try, try. You have to try because if you're talking about Manonasha, then at least two hours we need to talk about. Not talk at one level on one thing and another level on another thing, right? So—

Yeah, I would seek your blessings and prayers. You know, it's like what do you say in India? To get a job you have to influence, take somebody's help.

It's actually a beautiful thing. It's actually a beautiful thing. And maybe once I'll share about this for quite some time, but when we remember a saint like Mirabai or Tulsidas Ji or Saint Teresa, to ask for their intervention, for their intercession, is a beautiful, beautiful process. Like when they said that if you pray to Ma Yashoda, for example, she had so much influence with Lord Krishna, and that influence would not have changed. But it needs a lot of innocence of a child to say, 'Ma, please intervene for me with your son because He is not showing Himself, revealing Himself to me. He's hiding,' which is His naughty nature. So there's great power in innocence like that. So trust that impulse. Like when we pray to Mother Mary or Father Joseph, if you do it with faith, God values that faith. So if you ask for intervention of this stupid, foolish man, that's also auspicious. I will pray with all my heart for you. Let's go to Yanik.

Hello, can you hear me? Yes, my Father. Thank you so much. I want to first I want to say thank you so much for these meetings and satsangs. But at the same time, I want to say I apologize for my hiding and like for—I'm just like, I don't know, I'm like feeling so stupid in a sense, but it's a good stupid. Like this is such an opportunity that you are here with us and every now and then, or sometimes every three days in a week. And oh my God, please, please forgive me for my stupidity. And I want to say like, I want to ask for your help because in my situation, it's always the same themes like come. It's about this search for some—like today you already mentioned about looking for some—the money perhaps is connected to women, maybe some desire and stuff. And my wish for now is because I really start to like appreciate this company we create together, and I would like to like maybe if it's possible at the moment—I quit the job at the end of December. Nice. And at the moment, I got a few calls and I would—maybe for me it's not a problem, I don't feel lazy to go to work, but I don't want to waste the opportunity like to deepen, to die in a way if it is possible. I know it's a big word for me maybe, but I don't want to waste this opportunity because I'm like more and more in the satsang of Guruji. He's like giving a sense of like a pinch of this urgency, you know? Yeah, yeah. Because like, what am I doing? I would like to make this recommitment again to really try to be present here for all of you and for you. And just please, and please, it won't happen without a prayer. If you could please pray that I keep up my attitude for satsang, for honoring this. Thank you, thank you so much, and I love you so much. Thank you, Ananta Ji.

It is our job in a way, those who are sharing love for God, teaching the pathway to God, it is also the job, part of the job, to behave like an alarm clock and to say that wake up, wake up, there's no time to waste. You see? So it's very natural that when you hear satsang, you feel that, 'What am I doing? I need to focus more on God.' It's part of the design of this because Maya will say, 'It's okay, you can wait till tomorrow, you can wait till later. God is not going anywhere. Your money, opportunities, relationships, all these things are going fast, so God can wait.' That is the way the Maya operates. But the Atma, the Holy Spirit, is reminding us that we are running out of time, that we can't take it for granted. I had some firsthand experience of that also in the break, that anything can happen at any point of time. So we can't really take God for granted, at least. Which doesn't mean at all that God is opposed to your work or your business or whatever attempts are there to keep your life functioning. But allow your heart to guide you, allow His grace, His love to move you as much. Just carry that intent. Even if it feels difficult, just start your day saying that, 'I want to spend my whole day with You, God, and You please help me take care of all these responsibilities that I have now.' And start in that honesty; then more and more He will help you in the process. Everything. He's not oppressive by nature; He doesn't want us to struggle. So the struggle only comes because we are torn between two masters, between the mind and the heart, you see? That's what makes a struggle. So just surrender yourself to your heart and He will take care of all our struggles.

Like if I may add, today I was like I got opportunities already, like the calls were flowing in for the jobs. And one was like I could work from eight morning till four, which makes I would not be able to be in these satsangs. I see, like I would miss perhaps. So I declined, I refused. I still have money for maybe a whole month to pay next month for an apartment. And of course, I don't mind to go to work at all, at all. I don't mind. Just I just feel like I was thinking like maybe to put this money issue a little bit aside for this beginning of this year at least, maybe half of this year to put a little bit aside if that is God's will, of course. Yeah, a little bit. Not get some maybe medium, medium job, like medium pay something, and maybe try to experiment a little bit with this. Yeah, because just to try if that is okay.

Yeah, so allow all of these determinations also to come from His prodding in your heart. Don't even take this on for yourself saying, 'This is the kind of low, medium, high.' Even He can decide all of that as well for you. And if you spend a lot of time not knowing, that is also auspicious because the not knowing is how little children are. They don't need to know so much; they feel like they are taken care of.

So yes, it's like when I'm away from my family, then I can stay in this state, sometime fall into this not knowing. But when I'm there, it's kind of you feel the pressure going on to you, to you have to know now. Yes, like this. So this is like this. So that's about it. I just hope I can continue to be here and just to be in this satsang with you. Just I pray for this for the moment. Thank you, thank you so much. And I hope to be more interactive if that's necessary, whenever it's necessary. Not to be like a ship totally. A little bit ship is good, maybe, I don't know.

It's all good, it's all good. You can come, you can come anytime. Okay, wanted to come. I don't know if she's still here. My dear child. So maybe you can go to D first and then come back. Thank you. Welcome, welcome. Nice to see you again.

Okay, I just felt to come up because the last few days I felt this kind of stuff creeping in again and just I—yeah, sometimes when I go into this state it is a bit hard to come back out. So just to ask for your grace and just to—I don't know what I need to do. I just hope I can, yeah.

It's coming to tell you that He wants you to know that God loves you and He is there with you. And whenever things seem very oppressive, just keep the intention to stay with Him and He will do the rest. All my blessing is all my love. Keep me posted if there's anything, let me know. Yeah, bless you, my child.

Thank you. Okay, let's go to A. Is she back?

Yes, I am back. Sorry, we have to take the call. Namaste. Just help to come out of my hiding place because it's been a while since I talked to you. And last time also, did I call you or did you come? Maybe I came that I was just picking out those who don't come up and say maybe have a conversation one time like that. Yes, we have what it was years long ago. Thank you. Just want to thank you. Well, maybe that my hesitation to come up it's connected due to, you know, I feel that urgency which comes from you, from Guruji, and it's difficult for me to dedicate even those two hours for God.

It's been a long time since I talked to you. And last time also, did I call you or did you come? Maybe I came, that I was just picking out those who don't come up and say, maybe have a conversation one time like that. Yes, we have. What? It was years, long ago. Thank you. I just want to thank you. Well, maybe that my hesitation to come up, it's connected to you know, I feel that urgency which comes from you, from Guruji. And um, it's difficult for me to dedicate even those two hours for God, if we count satsang watching. Yes, but you know, I feel that is no, it's easy escape. That seems like, yeah, yes, easy escape. I try to meditate like soul inquiry, I do Atma Vichara, yes. But ideas I more do when I do some work, while walking, while cooking. And meditations like now, I came back to invitation somehow. I felt like this. But thank you for that Elizabeth of the Trinity. I got the book and I know I read, I feel inside what I when I read her. Yeah, I know that this is the fire in me. I recognize myself. Of course, it's when I read about her, you know, it's like far, far away from how I live. But you know, I just know that somehow, deep, deep, the truth is in. So thank you.

So good, so good, so good. All of these young children, no? Young children like St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Elizabeth of the Trinity, a few more. Just these young children who had such a deep love for God and what beautiful sharings, what beautiful outpouring they shared. And God called them to Him so fast in their young lives. Like even St. Elizabeth, I felt like very early, St. Therese also. And but their work, their innocence, and yet the depth is so stunning. Yes, very beautiful. Very grateful to these great sages in all traditions for sharing such beauty with us. And all of us are learning so much from them, so many centuries sometimes after they left the body, one or two. So very good, my child. I'm happy to hear your report. I'm happy to be with you.

I just connected maybe, you know, half an hour ago. Yeah, because I don't know, I'm not able to be at yank because during the day I have some duties to fulfill. But sometimes I feel that it's maybe that inner resistance like goes out and takes the form which in my outer life, and seems that I have to do this and that and I cannot attend such satsang fully. But maybe with your blessings it will change. And baby, I really, really need you, Father. All my love.

You are my full blessing and may He guide you every step. Whether much more outer satsang in this way happens or not, may your inner satsang continue to grow like this, bloom like this. May you have so much love for God, so much innocence. I bless you deeply, deeply in my heart.

Thank you, Father. Thank you. Don't hesitate to come up. It's my heart too, so come for my sake. You remind me, I just recently listened to one satsang with Papaji and he shared a story when one Western woman came to ask a question, came to see him, and she was very arrogant. And then Papaji talked that when you come to a teacher, you have to bow your head. And it's like in Indian tradition, you have to bring some flower or at least a leaf. So, and he said, 'This is my heart, this is my garden outside the house. Just take one leaf from my garden and bring it.' So just what can I bring you, Father? Just what you give me. Thank you. Thank you.

Love you too. But I see you, I see you in satsang quite often actually. Yes, but it's like on and off always. I just connect and I have to go there and do that. Just keep flowering, keep flowering like this. Thank you. Let's go to Anu.

Thank you, Ananta. It's very nice to see you. Yes, Ananta, I just came up now because I felt I am a little bit more too comfortable with my sadhana. I mean, I don't take it that fiery, that much seriously like I used to. And I thought it is because maybe I am a bit more easy inside, I don't carry that much heaviness. And but actually I find this kind of resistance is kind of arrogance in me. But I see now and judgments towards...

How many, how many, how many hours of sadhana is happening? Just a little comfortable? Sorry, one second, change this. I'll end up straining my neck. I don't want to take your time. I believe maybe you are tired.

I'm alright. I want to know the answer to this. What is the amount of time in sadhana approximately, honestly?

Sometimes I don't have to do things. I just, I don't know, I just go to a riverside or a forest and everything is so open and I don't have to do anything.

And that's a gift to us, so let's not count that. Yeah, okay. How much to go?

Yes, you know, at the beginning sometimes you said the ones who just get this by grace, they are not willing to pray and make the job by itself because they are waiting for the grace to come again and again. And I find myself in this position maybe. And even, even I find myself angry if it's not happening, angry to God and even judging. Yeah, that's it. And honestly, I do my sadhana less and less day by day. I'm just, I don't know, I just maybe use this term that it is in God's hands. But I know you already talked about this, that this is kind of avoiding, this Advaita avoiding of doing anything. And also so many judgments are coming. I don't know where they were hiding before, but I don't want to lose my path and I don't want to lose this life and just wasting time and waiting for grace of God.

And very good to notice, this is the first step. And this is very good that you're noticing this sort of avoidance, escapism. So you remember one time it came in satsang to say that how much time during the day do we want Him available to us? How much time during the day do we want Him to be available to us and taking care of us? Yes, we always want it. Twenty-three hours, fifty-nine minutes is okay? Plus one, one second more. I know, yes, yes, we want it because in that minute if He's not with us, that sounds a bit too scary. So we want Him there all the time. And we make ourselves available to Him how much time?

Yeah, I don't know, Ananta. Honestly, I want to be very honest and I started to listen to somebody as well. Somebody, and yes, and he's talking—she, she's a woman—and she's talking about more to be loved by the universe, by the nature. But she doesn't use, to be loved by, she doesn't use that term of God. She doesn't like this. She said this is too religious and too old and is not fresh. And she used the term of universe. And universe, I don't know, there is something and this takes me so much inside as well, her presence and her words. But sometimes I find something contradictory inside me and I don't know, I'm struggling so much.

Let me speak to you about this, not trying to judge another teacher for whatever they may be saying. They may have a different vocabulary. But let's look at this: allowing the universe to love us. So the universe has the capacity to love, but where does the capacity to love come from to the universe?

She said this is the law, law of universe. This is the cosmic order. These terms she is using.

Agree, I'm not disputing that. Let's say...

And also she said this kind of primal... so she also said, I don't know, I'm so sorry Ananta, and I'm so take this, I don't know. I just, I just sometimes, Ananta, you know, I trust you so much and I don't know how this kind of judgment is coming inside to me and I don't like it. I don't like it. But I find myself sometimes too struggling with kind of words and terms. But what I find, whoever speaks about non-duality and Advaita and so many people are there, you know, and only what I find is common, this is the words of love, nothing else. Common word, common, this is common. What is everybody common? This is love. But really nothing else. And when you say today to be loved by God, you just let God's love you. Yeah, Ananta, okay, I don't know, I don't know.

Don't worry. Let's, we had conversation like this in the past. So don't rush. Firstly, don't worry. We just, I'm having chai. It's all good, everything is fine. So now, everything in the universe is in time or no? Yes, yes, it's objective. No, the objects, they are phenomena, they're in time. And everything that is in time was caused by something else, was produced by something else, was created by something else. Now, if I told you that you go to that room, it is all dark and empty, and you just wait over there and out of nothing will come this great intelligence with trillions of planets and light and sound and magnetism and gravity and love and peace and kindness and life and all of these things, they will just be born out of that nothingness in a dark empty room. What would you say?

No, it's not possible, Ananta. It's not possible.

So if there is intelligence in the universe, do you feel that that intelligence can just sprout out of nothing, or must it come from something that is more intelligent? If there is love in the universe, can it come out of like a nothing—not the Nothing, but a nothing—or do you feel like a love can come from that which is a higher love? What is your intuitive sense about this? What is your basic, basic sense about this?

It must be the highest, isn't it?

Isn't it? That it doesn't feel likely at all that such great intelligence, such great beauty, such great love, such great kindness, so many beautiful things come out of a sheer nothing. They must. In the world we've seen that a mother gives birth to a child. The child takes on nutrition and everything from the mother and on the basis of that then it starts to exist. Now the strange thing about atheists is that—and I was one of them, so I can really report on them—is that we would rather believe that nothing leads to so much love rather than a greater love leading to so much love. And now I find that notion very absurd. So this is what we can contemplate and see that if there is love here, if there is light here, if there is so much growth, so many processes of chemistry, physics, biology, so many people trying to understand all of this intelligence, but it seems so ungraspable, it's so intelligent, you see? Then how can all of this intelligence come from a sheer dumb nothing? It's not, I don't even feel it's intelligent to think that. Like even if you were to apply our intelligence, you would say that all this magnificent intelligence must come from an intelligent source. And you know what happens if you listen to this kind of thing? Like many times scientists, most scientists feel like there is God from whatever I've read, including Einstein and many great scientists. But otherwise, if you take God out of the equation, what is it? First, out of nothing all this matter came, which was unintelligent. All this matter, then from this matter somehow intelligent life was born. How? So if I say to you that you go to that room, there are three tables and four chairs over there and one day they'll become intelligent beings, what will you say?

No, it's not possible.

But that's what they're saying. That first there was all this matter, then life came as unicellular organisms which were alive. How? From nothing all this came? How life was produced from not-life? How did life come? So maybe what happens—and I have experienced that for myself—I had a lot of conditioning. I was an atheist for a large part of my life. But childhood conditioning, feeling let down by God, expectations that God should have done this for me, all of these things create in a lot of us aversion to God. An aversion to... we would rather say universe or universal consciousness, you know, whatever that means, rather than saying God. So it is because of... so I don't blame the other one. She may have had some experiences or maybe she knows better actually. I'm happy to learn, no honestly, because I've been wrong so many times in my life. I could, I feel, I feel so right about God, but maybe with sheer foolishness. I'm happy to understand how life can come out of nothing, how intelligence can come, how love can come. And it just doesn't seem right.

Say universe or universal Consciousness, you know, whatever that means, rather than saying God. So it is because of... so I don't blame the other one. She may have had some experiences or maybe she knows better. Actually, I'm happy to learn, no, honestly, because I've been wrong so many times in my life. I feel so right about God, but maybe with sheer foolishness. I'm happy to understand how life can come out of nothing, how intelligence can come, how love can come, and it just doesn't seem right. It just doesn't seem viable. And this is all of this is keeping the deep intuition alive or not alive and just judging it on outer evidence. If I get the Atma and its guidance into the picture, there is no question of the absence of God. There is just no. So whose presence is it in our hearts? The universe's? Sometimes I find they are just words. And what is presence? You don't feel any presence in your heart? Is that Saturn or Jupiter?

You don't feel like there's any being who wakes up in the morning? It's not a being, it's just a brain, it's just a body-mind. Is it what your experience is? I am experiencing so many things, Ananta, I don't know anymore.

But what is the 'I don't know'? So let's find out. Let's find out together. The presence of being, the sense 'I am', doesn't seem to be coming from some floating planets in the universe, you know. Um, if you look at a simple thing, there was a chameleon in my garden outside and it had changed its color exactly to match the leaves and the branch. So part of his body was looking like the branch and a part of his body was looking like the leaves. That intelligence... and he's not doing it by deciding to do it. What is that? Where does that intelligence come from? Such a deep intelligence. We may say, okay, it comes from nature. Let's say nature. But isn't that another way of saying God? Then if there's a supreme intelligence...

Yes, but then yes, it must be because we have a problem with the word God, which I understand because I had also for many years. Then if you're just replacing words and just using nature for everything that you want to say God to, then it's just a childish, childish replacement of words.

Yeah, if you are saying nature is supremely intelligent, it is supremely loving, it is full of mercy, its presence is shining in my heart, and when I go into the depths of my heart I find that He is sitting there and that is nature—okay, let's call it nature. It's all right.

Yes, Ananta Ji, but this is more than this. It is like, I don't know, it's kind of I'm losing my humbleness, my devotion, or kind of like this. And also...

Okay, so which quality of God is not present in the other framework?

Merciful. I cannot, I cannot put this in words now.

Take your time. Take your time and truly contemplate in your heart what you're being guided to, because that is the true teacher. All us outer instruments are flawed in some way or the other. So just more than anything else, trust that about your intuitive sense in your heart is guiding you to everywhere, to everywhere at the same time.

No, at the same... no, no, only God can do that. My... unfortunately, in the sense that only God can be everywhere, then there must be a God. Yeah, I don't know, I'm just a bit confused. I don't know.

I just would like... why don't you present some of these questions to the other one and maybe we can have an indirect conversation in this way? You can tell her also that I also listen to this other man who constantly is saying God, God, God, God, God. But he was saying, how does all this love come from nothing? How does all this intelligence come from nothing? How does all this mercy, grace, a pure hand of loving care as a parent come from nothing? Ask her, and I'm happy to learn if there's an answer. And if it becomes a little more complicated, then you ask her, so how did this nothing produce this unintelligent matter first, and then the unintelligent matter became living beings? Through what process? Why you trouble yourself? Just ask her.

I think, I think maybe my understanding is limited, but what she wants to say, this is the same as you mention God. She mentioned this cosmic order, this universal law.

But the God who put the order? So there's a commune of humans, a management team that got together and said, 'This is the cosmic order. The gravitational constant will be this, speed of light will be this.' So which committee decided that cosmic order?

I think this is the highest form, but I know there is just... order cannot have decided itself. Somebody must have put the order in place, no? Like you can't say that this is the constitution of the country and it made itself. Somebody must have put the constitution in place. There's a set of rules, a set of principles. Did they decide themselves that we will work like this? Always should be some something more higher. But Ananta Ji, okay, this is not even the highest, the biggest matter for me. Okay, I tell you now. So she says, she says instead of ego, she says 'slave self'. This is the term that she uses. Slave self. This is how she calls ego. Slave self.

Slave? Slave? Can somebody type it if they understand? Who's getting it can type it in the chat. Slave self? Yeah.

Slave self. This is how she called the ego. And this is why she doesn't like God, because she said this kind of devotion towards God, this kind of... this is a kind of parental projection and this is a part of the slave self. And this is why I am so confused, because everything in here with you is kind of like a devotion towards God, towards the teacher, towards... and she said this is that if... no, not like... she said the slave self, this is kind of technology that was put inside the world, this Earth, inside humans a long time ago.

Inside by whom?

By... who... this is very long story, very, very long story. I don't want to go inside too much, but I know this is a kind of funny as well. But actually she's speaking about the almost the same as your Guru Ji. But I'm telling you one thing, she's going inside with more details, why, how the ego...

You lost me at this point. I'm sorry, I have to say. You know that I'm very open, you know that I'm always welcoming of you listening to all teachers who bring you to your heart, but you lost me at this technology and slave self thing. So it is my guidance and request: please don't listen to this kind of stuff. And you don't have to follow immediately, although I would recommend that. But remember that when things become so strange that it's all sounding a bit weird, then I don't want my children to get into any of this kind of mental position. So with this slave self thing and not to pray and not to be devotional, and there's some technology inserted by something which is not God, it's all sounding a bit too out there to me now. Even for me—I love out there usually—but this is too much.

Ananta Ji, can I share you at least... can I share you, because maybe just my limited expression, or maybe a video or something about... yes, just for you to judge with your eyes and not with mine explanation. Because yes, thank you. Have... thank you. Bless you, bless you. And thank you, thank you really. And sorry for me, Ananta Ji, please.

No, it's fine, that's fine. I always get scared to take a break. Always get scared to take a break. Thank you. Bless you, bless you. May God's grace, may universal consciousness's grace always bless you and keep you on the right path. Let's see you keep showing up for Satsang. Yes? Yeah, sure. Yes, yes. Okay, I'll go and rest. You'll all sing the Bhajan.