The Way of Spirit Is the Way of Love - 4th May 2026

This is good. This is good. So really what is the attempt? The attempt is to be empty of the me. You see the attempt is to be empty of the false me. And it is this remaining empty of the false me which then leads to the revelation of the self of God. So that process of revelation is a graceful process. That which seems to be in our hands at the moment only seems to be but that seems to be is very important for the moment again that how do we remain empty of this me?

So if you have this inner open and empty and this inner open and empty then you're empty of this me and in that remaining empty of this me the Atma within the spirit within gets the room to reveal its true nature to you, and reveal its own source to you. You see now whatever helps you remain empty of this me that is your practice.

And it is a very very rare one who can remain empty of this me without any practice at all. You see, so even the ones who said that you don't need a practice would say but be quiet. You see, so in a way that becomes a practice or a pointer for us to remember. You see, or they would say do the self inquiry or they would say remember God, remain in constant remembrance of him or simply they would say just take God's name. So in the pathways there are thousands and thousands of pathways to God. But the pathway only leads to the point of that inner stillness of that inner silence where we are empty of this me. And as we are empty of this me, then through the process of inner osmosis or whatever word you want to give it, the light of the Atma within reveals the holy truths to us including the truth of who we are.

So it needs a lot of integrity where we are able to just check for ourselves. Am I really being empty? And what is the way to check? Suffering, irritation, anger, psychological oppression, all of these things. As we are suffering from them then even if the mind is making a report but I am just empty you see then we don't buy into that story. Our life is telling us a different story. So to have integrity about that and to really notice what is the texture of my life and in the texture of my life am I getting the taste of holiness? Am I getting a taste of God? Then we can trust the report of our emptiness. Otherwise we continue with our practice of self inquiry or taking God's name or reminding ourselves to be empty.

But the last one we have to be cautious about and we were talking about it the other day that in the process of being empty we get full of being empty. Isn't it? So in the process of being without a topic without a narrative our then primary narrative which remains is I am without a narrative. So the sages have told us over and over again that to be empty of narratives including the narrative of being empty can seem very difficult can seem very difficult for many in the human condition but not for all you see and that's why I said it just needs for you to really check check on the texture of your life with integrity. And then it's fine. It's fine.

So surrender the surrenderer.

Yeah. So remain empty then yes surrender the surrenderer in a way that that which remains is empty of even the notion of empty.

You see now one simple test for this is because we may feel that what it is one thing to say that I don't need God's name which is not what you're saying. What I'm saying: many of us may feel that I can naturally be in God's presence I don't need God's name. So for them I would suggest a simple experiment take one day out of so many thousands of days in our lives take one. And for one day say that for today I will take my favorite name of God for the entire day.

Why is this experiment useful? It is useful because if you can remain empty unanchored, you see if you can remain empty without any support any anchor then for those who are empty to take God's name constantly for one day is the simplest thing. You see it's the simplest thing because it just gives you the support to be empty. Whenever a notion is coming in your way, coming, seeming attractive, it doesn't have a chance because God's name is constantly being taken.

You see so if you're just being empty just naturally then all these notions are coming and going anyway. But in that there's a great potential for us tricking ourselves or the mind tricking us. You see looking back because memory is very convenient. So we can look back and say I was empty throughout the day. You see but what is to tell? So for one day remain with God's name for your whole life. It's very good. But for one day do this experiment. It should be really easy for those who are truly empty. You see what is the difficulty? There is no obstruction to it. If you're empty, there's no obstruction to it. So just take God's name constantly for one day. That will give you a real sense of how empty you actually are. So in this way you cannot fool yourself. That's a good good tip. I feel a good tip. I don't know if it's actually a good one.

The thing is that I don't feel that I am empty all the time. I mean I use this practice of surrendering. It's something that helps me to empty myself.

Yes. So how like it's next to impossible to be really quantitative about this but would you say that you're empty for half the time for 10% for 1%?

I would say that at least for half the day I feel it. But it's a constant practice. To whenever something comes up that tries to put me into a shape, I surrender.

Yes, my dear. But at what point do we notice the shape forming? That's the question, isn't it? And why this is important that it is important because if it was merely a question of being free from suffering, which sounds like I'm saying merely, sorry, it is a big thing in our life to be free from suffering. But if it was, let me just finish that point. If it was merely a question of being free from suffering, then I could say the every time I noticed the persona, the individual, the ego sense getting activated and created a sense of contraction in my heart. Then I offer that to God. That is a very useful practice. You see, and in this practice with integrity, as soon as you notice you offer it to God, you cannot really suffer. You cannot really suffer.

But the question is not merely that of the end of suffering. It is about the realization of the self, the realization of God. Whether you call it self-realization or God realization, you see. So because it is a question of that and the more time we spend in the sunshine of the Atma within the holy spirit within you see in that silent unperceivable transmission from our heart which fills us with its light and therefore leads to the revelation of reality of truth. And because the spiritual path is a process of revelation of the truth. So because it is a question of the process of revelation. Therefore, the more time you spend empty of the me, which naturally brings you to the silent unperceivable transmission within where grace can unfold and Atma Gyan can unfold.

Therefore, I would say that our intention should be to be in God's presence constantly. That is our intention. So I would say that if our attempt is that I want to just lead a peaceful life, it means that every time I see that what causes suffering in my life is the resistance to what is from the ego. So I just allow myself to flow and then when I notice that there is a tinge, a pinch, a poke, a sense of individuality. You see, now the thing with this is at what point do we notice? As long as the person seems to be having a good time, we all right mostly. You see, we're not saying this is too much fun. God, please take him. Okay with that. The minute something happens, a conflict comes, our partner fights with us or a friend fights with us or our manager or bosses at work get angry or we lose some money. You see that is when we say ah this one is coming up like God please take. So it's a question of then picking and choosing and after how much time do we remember God? After how much time will we remember to surrender?

You see so really the pathway of spirituality is to remain constantly in his presence in the presence of in the presence of his presence which is the Atma, or spirit. There our discipleship of spirituality our discipleship of Satsang really happens. Spirituality has to be in the light of spirit. Can we deny that? We can't deny that spirituality being in the light of spirit seems like saying a restaurant must serve food isn't it? So there is no question about that. But most in spirituality have not come to the discipleship of spirit. Have not come to the discipleship of spirit because that is maybe not understood. Maya plays its tricks and we feel like spirituality is nothing to do with spirit. Actually absurd.

So I would really say that the freedom from suffering is a sweet beautiful byproduct of spirituality of the discipleship of the spirit. You see but our intention should be truth. Our intention should be love for God. Our intention should be to remain empty of the me, so that our antahkarana is available constantly for God. Is that helpful in some way?

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Father. I will contemplate what you told me. And I see also that imagination sometimes can be tricky. The the tendency to imagine God, you know, like some

Exactly.

Some very big you know light or space or love.

Exactly.

Yeah. And sometimes I recognize that there is like a a light of God like awareness before what that which is aware and is in my heart the which is before the mind somehow and only recently I I think I I found this awareness that is in my heart and and it's beautiful to rest in it to marinate in it to I don't know to to to be in the presence of God to in his light. Yeah. There are two like there are two potential positions that somehow come to me like this one that is before the mind and is in my heart or the other position is something like God is the big other you know like the big the big outside of me like vast as the universe or bigger than everything that I. But I feel both are kind of helping to I think maybe God is both. It's both bigger than myself and both.

Yes. In the heart. So in the heart is actually is actually not contradictory to the second. You see that the one who lives in your heart is beyond this universe and therefore your heart also has got a chamber let's say which is beyond this universe. You see, isn't that such a great gift to know that I consider myself a limited entity? But the sages across traditions, across timelines, across religions have all told us that in the hridaya, in the heart, the lord of the universe delights to stay. You see? So for most people this is an alien concept. For most of us it's an alien concept. Even for those where it's not an alien concept, it just remains a concept. Now coming to Satsang is to bring it from concept into reality.

I would like to add something. Also before I was so inclined to self inquiry and I was blessed many times with so many insights. I was blessed with there's no separation nowhere and many other insights. But still the insights were not alive all the time moment to moment and they became like concepts. But repeating God's name keeps me so much, takes me deeper and deeper. I feel so I'm again grateful that you teach us repeating God's name. Thank you so much.

It's very beautiful. To snap out of it remaining as just a conceptual understanding into it becoming a lived reality, we have to turn within. And the turning can only happen through the method, practice, pointers that our teachers are telling us. So it is not a spiritual path if we are not being told about the pathway to spirit.

How is the simplicity of it? I feel like all of us will conclude that self inquiry clearly is a pathway to spirit. There's nobody doubt that it sounds fancy enough. I'm doing self inquiry. So then that has to be a pathway to spirit. Actually self inquiry is very simple like just asking sincerely the question who am I? You see and then when the mind produces an answer a thought comes you say who witnesses that thought. What is so difficult? You see what is so difficult? It's a fairly straightforward process and what happens in that process is that the antahkarana's design brings us to the point where that revelation can happen. Now that point may be called nidyasana, it may be called silence, it may be called stillness. It may be called contemplation. Some may call it meditation. In different different terms we may use.

You see but nobody can say that upon saying who am I sincerely 100 times or thousand times or a million times it is guaranteed that I will come to the answer. Nobody nobody promises us that isn't it? So because all that the question can do when asked sincerely is bring us to that stillness where in the mercy of God in his grace the revelation of the truths will be revealed to us and that can never be forced it can never be entitled and that's why humility is so important.

You see now the same thing happens when you take God's name. And it doesn't matter any of his holy names throughout the world any religion are completely fine and we talked about this maybe some of you were not here so I like to repeat this aspect of it. And so today I received a box of mangoes so today I can use mango as the example. So if you keep saying mango to yourself what happens? Your entire antahkarana will be full of mango soon. You say mango then your mouth may start watering. So body reacts. Then your region of memory may bring you memory of when you tasted mangoes. Maybe childhood some beautiful memory. So that memory may come. Then memory, imagination. You may start imagining that you're savoring the taste of a mango. Then the emotions related with the mango. Maybe nice emotions, fun, sweetness, all that may come. You see, so we get immersed in the remembrance of the name even of a worldly object.

You see and this can happen like if you have some negative type like kusang right it's not about Satsang mabusan just on the outside but also in the inside if we immerse ourselves in negativity then we'll get immersed in that. You see so now what happens when you take the name of God: Ram, Krishna, Jesus, Allah, whatever name you want to take? So you say Ram, Ram, and you find the same thing may happen. But what is important that happens is that our antahkarana is designed to point us in the direction of what we are remembering.

So although in the design of our soul in the design of our insides it does not have under its own capacity the capacity for revelation of God but in its intelligence it does know where to bring us where that revelation can happen which is the same place where self inquiry brings us. It is that same place which is called nidyasana. It is that same place which is called silence, stillness, contemplation. It is that place where spirit will reveal itself to us. And only through the eyes of the spirit can the truth of who we are reveal itself to us. You see it is not possible to bypass it.

So when we come to Satsang, we get a taste, a miniature replica of that revelation that seeds us with the fragrance within and then that fragrance we can follow to that holy place in our heart fearlessly. So our coming to outer Satsang with openness is an antidote to fear. You see because these terrains if you were to try and navigate by ourselves many times we get scared but since you have a fragrance of that through your experiences in Satsang you're able to follow that.

So that in a nutshell is the spiritual process. And can you see the importance of humility in this? The minute you come to the sense that I know something that receptivity, openness, stillness is not there. You see so if ever you are frustrated in your spirituality feeling that why is Atma not revealing itself to me I have been doing the inquiry I've been taking God's name then just keep working on your humility on your entitlement.

May I share something further? You know, these days there are some experiences that are unpleasant. For example, there's a teenager in my neighborhood who saw me that I feed the cats and maybe he thinks that I'm kind of a pacifistic, weak person, and he started making fun of me whenever he sees me on the street. And I tried to respond with some things, but he doesn't stop. He always makes fun of me and it's hard for me. I feel my pride attacked you know like it's hard to be humble and not get angry and this is an example that...

Very good. This itself helps us on the pathway to humility. Because the mind says that if I become humble. So the way that the con sorry my dear but the way the construct was put in the question which was he probably believes that I'm a pacifist weak person you see.

Yeah it's not the the best use of words pacifists are not are not weak.

Pacifist is not a bad thing is. I don't know um what you were to use like like I don't know like shy or nonviolent. I don't know.

All of this is sounding like compliments to me as you say.

Yes I know but you know there are people that they don't like that.

They don't like it. Of course. And yet do you like it?

Yes.

Yes. That's why then that's fine. Because some people, you know, want to take advantage of people who are nonviolent and kind.

But those are the very people that cannot be taken advantage of. It is the defenseless ones that can't be attacked because you can only attack the defenses. You see, so we were talking about openness, emptiness. Then as the world's derision, as the world's scorn is met with emptiness, it has nowhere to land in you.

I'm still trying to learn that.

Yes. All of us. All of us. I'm also not saying from a place where I'm saying I have perfected this or I am the master. Not at all. I'm just a beginner at this. We are all learning this together.

So really the point is to: can we love the hell out of them? Can we love the hell out of those who attack us?

There is also like a desire for this kind of experiences to stop. But I should not be attached to that.

Yes, we can use that then as an opportunity to love. You see, love is really love when it's very difficult to love. It's not the strongest love when it's so easy to love. That is why there's one story of Saint Thez of Liz. She actually there was one older nun in the convent who managed to irritate her every day with something or the other you see and then she would have to work hard to love her. You see now this lady after the passed away very young she felt like how did this young child love me the most among everyone? That was her favorite.

She said, you see, now the mind is a trickster. It will say, but that is hypocrisy. You see, that is hypocrisy. That is not love. Actually, you're getting irritated, but you're treating the person with so much kindness and compassion. That is not love. That is fake. That is hypocrisy. No, it is us working hard to fight the oppression of the mind which wants to separate, which wants to divide.

So the spiritual path is full of these struggles, is full of the Mahabharat, you know the Indian story of the battle between good and evil. So this inner battle is something that we must all undertake to fight. We must not give in to mental temptation to resent to hate to anger. And no matter of no matter how much ada policing we do, we cannot deny these facts.

The way of spirit is the way of love.

Yes. I will contemplate this. Very good. Thank you. Thank you, Father. Thank you.

You're very welcome.

Father. Yes. It seems related. You said a while ago that it was unfortunate that people were saying negative things about Gandhi. And I just recently saw a YouTube, just a few minutes of a YouTube about many people dying because they adopted his nonviolence approach. I didn't know that great numbers. I didn't finish watching it. But does it mean we have to be prepared to die?

Simple answer, yes. But I would question the statistics of such a video. I don't know if there's actually been a study on whether primarily if the whole movement was violent whether more of us would have died. I'm not sure whether it would have been more or less but I'll be happy to look at this video but the simple answer to that is: if on the pathway of love and I'm nowhere near this so please don't think as I'm sharing these things I'm saying I would be able to do these things but I feel clear in my heart that this is the pathway which may seem like a difficult pathway that the Atma lays out for us that in our path towards attacking the darkness but loving the apparent sinner or the apparent oppressor. No sacrifice is too small and this is very difficult to live by.

So if somebody came and attacked my family, would I not attack them back in response? I really can't give you the answer, but most likely I would because I don't know how to fully walk the pathway of spirit yet. But I know that the way my heart is, the way the Atma within guides, it is full of love, kindness and compassion. You see now there comes a point where the spirit does guide us to pick up arms for ourselves like Krishna did with Arjun in the Mahabharat you see then but those are rare and they happen to the rare ones so we have to be really careful when we make that conclusion that God's guidance for us in this moment is to fight. Be very very careful about that.

Father. Hello. Hello. Yes. I just wanted to yeah to expose a some fear that it's I think it's is super common let's say but the more I I repeat the name of God and in the last few days more the more I I can feel again somehow that the fragrance of of only the fragrance and some some stillness and and the fear of course came of I I that I'm being fooled or like I'm like in in some kind of hypnot hypnotic. Yes. Yeah. And and also the the fear of surrendering everything let's say and hero surrendering.

Yeah. It can seem like that. Now okay let's look at it this way: if the entire world suddenly you woke up one day and the entire world all our brothers and sisters in the world were taking themselves to be cockroaches, everybody was considering that they are cockroaches. Now would you say that they are under the hypnosis or you are under the hypnosis?

Okay. So let me give you an example. You talk to a brother and you say but brother who are you, and the brother says I'm just a cockroach you know. And then you say but how do you know you're a cockroach? They say but what kind of question is that? Everybody's a cockroach. All of us see there's seven billion around you all cockroaches. Ask anyone they will say I'm a cockroach. You see but you say but have you really checked for yourself? They say I don't need to check. You say you must check. And the brother says why? What will I get if I check? What is the cockroach benefit to checking who I really am? You see so this is the hypnosis of avidya. This is the hypnosis of Maya where all of us are taking ourselves to be just the body mind. And the minute we want to step out of that hypnosis into just checking what is the reality and in the just the checking we receive some fragrance, love, light and the mind comes in the way immediately and says but you are getting hypnotized. The very one who is oppressing us with this hypnosis of a limited identity comes and says but this is nonsense, you're just losing track of your life. You'll just become a loser.

You see these are the things that all of us here in spirituality. You just become a loser. What are you doing with your life? And but you say but who are you? They say what do you mean? I am this person. I am this human being. You see but how many have really checked? So the world is in this contagion of false identity avidya false knowledge and to break through that false knowledge through the spiritual pathway is the breaking out of the hypnosis of Maya.

But of course Maya is not going to say good job you're breaking the hypnosis. It may say that actually to make us proud but maybe not yet.

It seems so anti antisocial, anti the way of the spirit somehow.

But okay can I just say something I can't stop myself? I want to say this fact: we are saying that there is a spirit which lives inside us and that spirit is God's presence the Atma is God's presence you see and on the other hand the mind comes and says but that's such an antisocial way to live. I may meet God, how is it important that the world may take me to be antisocial? You see, this is the value judgment, the value confusion that the mind creates. Do you see like what is on offer is God himself. You see and not just that there is no religion no set of sages who have survived the test of time who have not told us that unless we come to Atma Gyan unless we come to Atma darshan our life is meaningless it is zombie life and the only way to cross this cycle of birth and death is to meet God's presence is to find God.

If I have to pay that price of becoming antisocial. I say okay that's it that's the only price here I am antisocial you see we cannot be bullied by the mind with these small things you see I don't have to be socially popular if for being socially popular I have to give up on God. I'm not at all ranting against you. I'm just looking at the tricks of the mind and what it offers us is just peanuts compared to the whole universe which this transformation makes us gain. We gain the lord of the universe himself. What can the world offer us which can be of enough value compared to that?

Okay. Let me put this another way. If you could eat a peanut right now or you have a 1% probability at becoming immortal, what would you pick? We may laugh but the point is that that faith that is needed because the mind convinces us that to find God, to be immersed in God, to come to self-realization is a very small chance. But what is that very small chance? And this whole universe is a peanut compared to that. Whatever the world may offer us is nothing compared to that.

It's not really about you. I just want to speak about this. It's just coming from the heart to speak about it. Then what the mind will say: okay can I have half the peanut and also keep my chance to meet God alive? So this is like just in case I don't get God at least I got half my peanut. You see? At least can I do it in some balance? You see? So this is the nature of the mind. And even our families will tell us don't overdo it. Do it in some balance. When you're at the right age then you can do it fully. You see and that right age never comes. It only comes when we'll be completely unable to do it. Then people say yes now you turn to God. Why are you so worldly? Have you seen that? People when they become really old, although everybody tells them now you better turn to God. But that is the way I was conditioned for 95 years. For 95 years, the world conditioned me to be like that. And then at 96 years, now you turn to God. You see, it doesn't happen like that because our grooves are so deeply embedded. We can't just suddenly turn to God. You see it is not possible.

And the fact of the matter is that if we turn to God, we are never not taken care of even in a worldly way. Everything that we truly need is taken care of. What other guarantee is required? You see, so this is the thing. Somewhere we just have to bring our sword out and say I don't want anything from you Miss Maya. You see I don't want anything from you. Whatever highest you can offer me is not even a grain of sand at God's feet. That is the story of the kata nishad where the god of death himself comes to this young boy nachikita and says why you want to know about immortality and what is beyond death I'll give you the best things in life, you see, and nachikita just said but will any of that survive you god of death and death said no. He says I don't want any of that tell me the pathway beyond yourself.

So somewhere to fight these mind's fears and temptations then we just have to really bring that strength to our heart and say what do I really want? I could become really popular, sociable, people may love me and then I die and then they die. What is it about? What's going on?

Father, may I ask? A very short question about the name of God: is Vitthal and Panduranga also names of God? Because I feel I resonate with them.

Yes. Yeah. Very much. Names of Krishna, names of Vishnu. So Vishnu came in the form of Ram, Krishna, and then many different revelations were made to devotees, disciples and one of them is Lord Vitthal in Maharashtra. So very holy name of God. Yes. If you feel drawn to it very much. Very much.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Father, you have often told us not to pick up the next thought. You say we are liberated now and the way to get bound is to pick up the next thought. So the small self which I thought was always picking up the next thought on inquiry is not to be found.

Yes. Exactly.

So then who is picking up the next thought?

Yes. So if you see that there is no such limited entity. You see, you find that it is in the picking up of the thought that the sense of the creation of that entity happens. You see, there is no such entity ever. So, it is not that non-existent one cannot pick up anything. You see, so the one that is sitting in the middle of both of you cannot pick up something because it doesn't exist. It has no power. You see: that antahkarana, that soul, that which emerges in the light of consciousness, the I am, when mixed with the notion I am something you see that is the creation of the false self. So I am itself has given to itself the capacity to pick up things inside.

So this consciousness itself has given to itself the capacity to immerse itself in the small identity or to recognize itself as all there is as consciousness itself. Now this capacity is what we usually call the inner instrument the antahkarana. You see, so the antahkarana can immerse itself in Maya or can immerse itself in God or truth whichever way you want to look at it. I know that you're not particularly attracted to God as such but self or truth is more attractive to you. So this antahkarana, like the one who is listening to this answer right now...

Awareness.

Okay. So now does awareness have a question like who's seeking understanding? You see now when something is not clear in the intellect it pokes us somewhere you see and we seek an understanding or we seek an answer that can clarify can remove that poke you see now who is getting poked that something is not clear?

It seems to be the small self.

Yes. So this what you're calling the small self. Let's use the word antahkarana for a moment. You see now once this turns in its self to its source then it's filled with only that which you're calling the big self. The more it immerses itself in worldly notions, concepts, narratives, the more it seems to get constricted and smaller. You see, so that is the spiritual process: how to immerse this which is called antahkarana or soul in the truth in God. You see is the spiritual process.

Now one way to do that is direct is to say no there is no such thing. Forget it. You are free now. Then what happens? You're not buying any of the narrative, any Maya intake. So it is apparent that the small self didn't really take birth. Was never there. Because when I try to sit in silence and observe it, observe the whole process, I could see that it is awareness itself which is picking up or creating the next thought.

Okay. So awareness the one that is trying to sit in silence, is it the same?

If this one that was trying to sit in silence had no distinction even imagined from awareness itself then there would be no trying needed. You see and all of us will admit that sometimes it is a struggle. Why is it a struggle? For whom? You see. So that's why I've started using this, borrowing from the sages of the past, using the term the antahkarana because this is a very useful term. This can immerse itself in Maya or it can immerse itself in God. And as it's immersed in God, then all division, all separation, all of that dissolves. And as it immerses itself in worldly narratives and worldly things, then it seems more and more distant from truth.

And it is to this antahkarana that the truth is revealed by the Atma. It is to this that the truth is revealed by the Atma. By remaining empty, it is fully available to be immersed in the truth. By filling itself with stories, with thoughts, it seems to become more and more separate, individualized. Is there a reality to any of this? You see, that's a very difficult question because what do we mean by reality? The fact is that we find it difficult to remain open and empty. You see, so just to find some solution to that difficulty, we create these constructs to be able to speak about things. The only reality is God himself.

So it's best to approach, as I'm getting older, I'm finding it easier and more helpful for everyone hopefully to approach things from what their present experience seems to be. And I'm finding that after 10 years of sharing just open and empty, most of my children got caught up in a notional empty rather than a true emptiness. Notional empty being still caught in the notion of being empty instead of being empty of that. We'll come back to you. I know there's still a puzzle.

Father, just stretching that question that was asked a little more. Like when you asked: who am I talking to, or who is hearing these words right now? He said awareness. And even for me in that moment it was just like everything was just dropped and was clear. Although the narrator, the voice, what we are calling small self, seemingly fictitious. My question is more from a brain biology standpoint and I feel at least so far in 5 years I've not found any contradiction between what is being shared here and what is being seen in the biological world. And I know it has its limitations, so I'm not overstretching that. But like in animals, there is a very tiny amygdala, which is the part of the brain that seemingly generates this internal narrator. And in long-term meditators and in fact in non-dual meditators compared to regular meditators the amygdala is way way way quieter from a neurobiological activity standpoint. So it all kind of lines up with everything that we are experiencing and what's being shared here. And then when they give people a substance that completely shuts down the amygdala, they have the beatific experience and emptiness and all of that. And sure, all of that is not sustainable and that's not the path. But where I'm trying to come in is there is something real inside this skull that is generating that stuff.

It depends on real. It depends on what you mean by real. Is real real?

I mean in that sense that there's nothing to be said, right?

Yeah. So what I'm saying is: very helpful when I just started spirituality. I was told that there are seven layers to my existence. Body, breath, mind, intellect, memory, ego, self. That's what I was told. Now the beauty of this is that all of these layers are connected in some way. You see? So if I have peace in my mind then my body also feels more rested. You see if my breath is settled then the other layers seem more relaxed also. So they all seem to be interrelated. So when we talking about reality if we mean it like this. Yes. So if there are buttons in the body that can be pressed a certain way which can change the complexion of the rest of my layers. Of course.

Okay. So this real thing came to us as a thought experiment by Vedanta, isn't it? They said that consider everything that changes to be unreal. Now they didn't give us any reasoning behind that. They didn't say this is why you should consider this is what makes it unreal. This is the actual difference between real and unreal. They said everything that changes unreal. You see how does that help? It allows us to dwell on that which we don't usually dwell on. We're constantly dwelling on the changing. So then with this thought experiment we were able to focus and spend time seeking inwardly that which is beyond change. You see so I feel that this real came from there. This whole real versus unreal thing in spirituality came from there. Maya is not real because it's not eternal. You see, but we rarely ever ask, so what does it mean by real except not eternal itself? You know what I mean? It's like saying that I am defining it and it's relying on itself for its definition.

Yeah. So no conflict there Father and I'll stay away from that word if we stay with the vantic definition of re real. Maybe the other analogy to provide here is if there's a loudspeaker and a TV in this room that's blasting violent music, angry music and so on. I'm just using that as a substitute for the amygdala. Whether it's real or not, I'm not using that. This seems to be occurring inside consciousness. This noise, this madness or whatever. And like you said when we open up to awareness there is no problem there and it's seen been seen so many times in in satsang and in our own practice. All I'm saying is just like the TV blasting with violent music and imagery seems to be present similarly this self could also just be present and it could be driven through biology and even if it is there so what, we have the way to live in awareness which may be free of all of this biology. The reason I'm bringing it up is sometimes I feel by calling it fake or an impostor or non-existent am I overdoing it? Am I just denying the existence of a television that is loud and is scary and it's making me upset and saying it doesn't exist? Because it's clearly affecting me.

So okay. The stressing on the point about real and unreal is only because I don't want any of us to get into any sort of brainism. No, the brainism being that the brain produces the rest of the universe. We spoke about it last time that then if the brain produces the rest of the universe, who produces the brain? Where is the brain lying separate from the universe? So, we're not getting into any of that brainism stuff. This is the unreality of the me. You see, so even if we say that everything perceived is real, let's give it reality. You see, so let's say everything that we perceive is our experience is real. Who is anyone else to doubt my experience? It's all real. Now, is this me found?

No. On inspection, no.

So this me is not found. The only evidence we have of this me then becomes this narrative. You see it is saying I want this, I like this, I don't like this. You see, but the I that it is referring to is not found. It finds a centrality in the body. But most of what it is saying has nothing to do with the body. The body for example doesn't care about its bank account. The body doesn't care about who is a special relationship. It's not about the body. So although the body is used as a decoy by this mental narrative, when investigated, we find that it is not really talking about the body. It is talking about an entity which we cannot even find in a perceivable sort of way in the way that we may find the body.

So that is why we can say that it's a second layer of unreality for this me because it's not even found perceivably. You see, so is it any different from if I was to start considering myself to be an alligator. I have a strong belief I'm an alligator. Now, nobody can stop me from believing this nonsense. So, so but I believe it now. At what level of reality would we put the alligator? You would say it's at a different level of reality from even the world. So if you were to go back to Vedanta again and if you say all perceptions themselves are unreal then the alligator is at another next level of unreality isn't it? Because it's not even found as a perception.

So yeah that's beautiful. And so if I had to now paraphrase what I was trying to say: there is a seeming monkey. And my problem is that I associate that to be a me, which is never real. But the monkey exists in my belief. My belief is that monkey is me is what causes the problem. When I ascribe to the monkey, where is this noise happening? Maybe monkey is giving it too much embodiment. Thoughts are arising. There's seeming trouble. But we never take the thought to be the monkey.

The thoughts exist at the same plane. You see but the monkey does not exist at the same plane.

Right. Yeah, thanks to clarify that.

You see so I'm not denying that these thoughts appear and the thoughts can seem real in our experience. So if we calling our experience real then they are as real as every other experience. Only when we apply the Vedantic thought experiment that take everything that changes to be unreal then we say all of this is unreal. Now Shankara confused us even more by saying Maya is both real and unreal. So make of that what you will.

Yeah. You see? So yes it's just a way, all of these are just ways in which we look in the direction of that which we call the inside. So if I say not this not this because it's unreal, neti neti neti neti, it brings us to a point it brings us to that road less traveled that proverbial road less traveled which is looking on the inside rather than the outside and that is the purpose of that labeling of real and unreal.

That's beautiful. There's this Zen interaction between a student and the master and he asks his master: are my thoughts and my suffering real? And the master replies saying yes it is real but you are trying to make it really real. You're exaggerating it.

Yes. Exactly. Real is a very tricky word. The same thing what we talking about: small self, antahkarana, universe, body, all of these labels, they're just word tools.

Also one more Father: like when you just asked today, what is listening to these words, and before when you started Satsang you said self inquiry is actually so simple. Why is it that a lot of people find it very heady, very heavy? My friends have said it's very heady, it's very heavy. And like you said it's the simplest thing in the world. Is that the hypnosis part that you were talking about?

Because the minute we, any of us, most of us would have had this experience that when we take up self inquiry the mind tries to scare us away from it, tells us it's too complicated. Nothing is happening. There is no answer coming. You see all of these thoughts come and actually that which is meant to be the opposite of heady can seem like it is very heady. It's actually meant to be the simplest.

Father, the self inquiry. I'm very drawn to it, Father. And this thing that always catches me is: all things are perfectly resolved in the unborn. Every time I'm drawn to self inquiry, I see that my expression changes outwardly, and somewhere I feel there's potential for pride. Like when I'm saying Ram Ram Ram, it's a different flavor. But when I ask myself who am I, there's a there's a deep silence.

Yeah.

I feel I have reached a point where...

Who has reached the point?

I am here where I don't feel a boundary. I, there's no space like...

Who is here. Remember that self inquiry is never about what the experience I'm having. It is really sincerely, relentlessly checking for who I am.

So when I ask who am I: who are you? I don't want to know what experience you're having, what happens, none of that. I just want to know who you are. Who is aware of the perception of these words of this sound? You are this I which is aware of the perception of the words. How is this I known? How do you know it is you?

I know it's me.

Do you know because you see this I?

I don't see it.

So suppose you are in a witness stand in a court. Now the judge is asking who is hearing this? Who is aware of this perception of these words?

I am.

You are. Now you're being asked to prove it. How do you know it is you? It is me. I can't doubt it.

But you don't see it. Nobody has seen this I. I can't show it. Are you just thinking that it's you?

No. Not thinking.

So it's neither based on perception nor is it based on concept. And yet you are so sure about it. Anything else in the universe you're that sure about without perception or concept?

No.

Nothing. This is the only knowledge in this way. So as you remain there, if you remain unconcerned with whatever other experiences may be playing out and keep asking who is witnessing this, then there's no room for pride in that. Maybe your mind's idea of you getting proud because of self inquiry is to try and prevent you from staying in the self inquiry. But you will find that the texture of remaining in God's name and the texture of sincere self inquiry is very similar. Both of them need humility. Because pride means I know. In self inquiry we cannot take the I know with us.

I get stuck somewhere when I do this, Father.

Stuck where?

Yeah. This.

A better question would be who gets stuck?

I I don't. I don't inquire. Like I.

Is it seeming like an unfair question to ask?

Yeah, this one. Yeah. I can say because I can say I I I'm praying but when I say I I'm I'm able to say.

See with self inquiry we cannot. We have to get to the end. There is no resting the I on anywhere else but the truth. You see, so if we are going to do the self inquiry, then this I will not be allowed to rest on anything provisional. You see, because that's the one that has to go for the insight to become clear, for the insight to become apparent.

Father, I hear you. And it's like all things are perfectly resolved in the unborn. When I ask who am I, if I meet the unborn...

Who does? She's going to get upset. No, there's not. Okay. Lack of like struggling with word. Not I meet the unborn, but you become the unborn in a way. I see that I am the unborn. I don't know how to say it. Yeah. Not I meet but the unborn is that which never took birth phenomenally.

Yeah.

So the ultimate reality of the self is this unborn. And master bank said all things are perfectly resolved in the unborn which is actually trickery with words because in the unborn what are things, what is resolved? Yeah. So it's just an invitation to return to the unborn to see our unborn nature which has remained uncontaminated in the birth of all of these things.

Tissue. Yeah. What? What did you say? The last line I missed.

When I ask who am I, I see that I am not born. I was not born. I don't go in this direction because of that I feel there's potential for pride. Can you help? How, I'm still not getting this. Why? There's no individual that can take ownership of the unborn.

I think I take ownership of this.

Yes. But that I'm saying that would be false, isn't it?

Yeah. I I don't see that. That's why then I come out like 10headed.

Who is the one which is the unborn? It's not me but it's me.

It's I. Beyond phenomena, world, beyond name, form, everything. Now, who is the one that can take ownership of this?

The ego can.

Exactly. So then you see the contradiction already.

I don't see it. But I now I'm seeing it. Correct. Because that is the Rahan thing. That I, Rahan, am God himself. Why should I bow down to Ram?

Yeah. You see I have seen that I am that you see but not that one. That one has not seen. You see: that ego is not seeing anything. There is no ego like that. But let's see: you are not seeing.

I see it and I see that I am not this. I am not.

So this consciousness, this sense I am, is then looking back and peering at its own source by the grace of the Atma itself. In the light of the Atma itself, it is seeing the I which remains unchanged, unaffected through all of this play of this world. Now that I plays as I am and then I am has the potential to take itself to be something. So once I am takes itself to be the ego, you see, then it has lost the insight, it has lost the I-ness. It is not lost but covered under under the layer of ignorance aidya.

So the truth is.

Correct. Hidden. Yeah. Exactly.

In a way it's good to see that our mind would love to hold on to that which it thinks is the highest inside and say now I got it. You see but that I hasn't got it. That which is prior to name and form is revealing itself to itself.

For that at what where does inquiry and bhakti meet like? I was exploring this that at what, where is the meeting?

So who are you? So this turning inwards, where the revelation is possible, is the same place where bhakti gets us. So when I say Ram, the false drops. But I can't say that I am meeting. When I say Ram, I feel that I'm coming to a place. But when you ask then it feels like a vastness. Is it like that?

Yes. There's a vast.

So allow that vastness to remain and that vastness itself will bring you to that place. Remember that a perceived vastness is not who you are. A perceived vastness is not who you are. A perceived vastness is a good preparatory step. Then that perceived vastness you will feel either it tears its own fabric and you can't place yourself anywhere or it settles in the same way in that holy still place that the name of God brings us to.

Father, this whole exploration got triggered because a couple of days back you said that there is no me and Ram when I'm saying Ram.

Exactly. There's only Ram like that like something you know like like my eyes like like something hit like I I got I got struck by a. So when you say that so when I say Ram there's still a me that is saying Ram. I don't feel like I'm coming to the same place.

Yes. But as you keep saying Ram then it is inescapable in the sense that as our practice of taking God's name deepens we have to, there is nowhere for us to go but at the door of the heart temple. Whatever method we use, if it's spiritual, it'll bring us to the door of spirit. Now, at the door of spirit, revelation happen. We see the truth of who we are. We see the perceivable unperceivable atma that reveals itself as atma daran. And atma dashan itself reveals the very nature of my reality as niruna brahman.

So when I say Ram Father I come to not once let's say I I say it a few times. I feel I come to dwatchi dari you know. Is that the same as this the first exploration where I asked who am I? Tell me exactly what happens when you ask who you are.

So let me make this multiple choice. So when you sincerely ask who am I, your attention can get withdrawn inwards or attention can become let free and it can seem like an unconstrained vast space.

It feels like vast, vastness.

Vastness. Now who perceives this vastness?

I.

Yes. What is happening when you ask: who perceives this vastness? There's a looking. Yeah. Stay in that looking.

I can't locate myself.

Yes. Who perceives this vastness? Is this I presumed, or found?

I discovered it. I found it. Here. Not not spatial, but here.

What does it look like?

It's formless.

Is there anything special about this experience in the sense is it not universal?

It's not special.

Exactly. So there's no space for pride.

Firstly because I didn't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. Secondly because it's universally available. Yeah. It's it and not nothing to be special about.

There's no claimment. There's no claimment. Yes. And you're saying this is the data. This is the heart temp. Yeah. Door to the heart temp. That very stillness, that very turning within. It is where we go for the truth. Now whether we call the truth God's name or whether we call the truth I, we go to the same place.

Is it that the mind offers: I have got it now, that's why pride?

No. It feels like an end of an exploration like I've arrived somewhere that the mind latches on to that I.

Yes, but that is completely not true. No, that is not true. You have to see that because it's never the end of an exploration. It's like an ever deepening exploration. The end would be: now there's nothing to turn inwards for because I already know. You see so don't give the insight to the mind to draw that conclusion because the mind doesn't know anything.

So so brother when I come out like not I'm using this word come out when I come out but let's say when when the when the thought comes that I have climbed the Everest you know it's like I've arrived then I buy it.

Yes. Instead of buying it say who is this I. Ask yourself to explain to yourself.

I think that's where the pride comes because I believe that I have arrived.

Who has arrived like what are you talking about? These are the spiritual traps that the mind lays.

And it's such a beautiful process, Father. But because of this one catch, I threw away the whole path. Exactly. But when it comes, you know, it's so fulfilling, it satisfies my heart you know.

That's why I love Gyaneshwar. He's saying by God's grace, guru's grace, those who have not come to non-duality, how will they ever take God's name? He's not saying it's the end. He's saying you've not even come to non-duality by guru's grace. How will you take God's name? You see and on the other hand he says just take keep taking God's name and then by God's grace you'll come to non-duality. So he doesn't make anything like the final destination. In one line he makes it like the prerequisite to take God's name. How will you take God's name? How will you do the kirtan if you haven't even come to non-duality yet?

So then that can squeeze our pride out.

Yeah. So we must not get into Udhav mode because what is Udhav mode? He came, he saw that all this is not real, I am not touched, why is Krishna sitting and crying for others? So that is the mental conceptualization about what the insight we're having, which is not true. It's conceptualizing the truth like putting it in a bucket and saying this. Remember I always say: don't take your heart knowledge and give it to your head because then it'll become learned knowledge conceptually and will contaminate your inside.

I want to say more. It's like, so the first few years after I came to Satsang there was a lot of this type. So this was the best like the insights were like, you know, useless. Now it's like the mind has taken the Udhav mode. So inquiry and all that is. But in my heart I know that there is a meeting point like they are they are taking you to the same point. But I couldn't meet those, the convergence of those parts. Exactly. But that line that you said that triggered this whole exploration: that when you say Ram, I am like what?

The true remembrance of God and in the simple way of taking his name is to be fully immersed in him alone and there's no space left for the. This is like like I am doing I am. This is more like a dissolving into God's name itself.

This is what you were saying of Mariel like opposite of Mariel it took place.

Yeah. Yes. Going to Mariel is what I was saying is that powerless prayer where we faithlessly we just like but I am there's no like he's here he's with me he's the lord of the there is no awe there's no wonder there is no joy like our faith is has taken a backseat and we just feel like because my teacher has told me I'll keep taking his name that still has power million times better than not. But it can be much more in that bhav in that or in that faith that he's here.

One good thing, one helpful thing, maybe to keep us humble, is that we say that till I come to Atma Gyan my spirituality hasn't begun. Until I come to spirit, where is my spirituality? It's beautiful, isn't it? In that very moment at his door, every liberation is attained. You see, but he's never referring to it in the past. He's never saying: okay, now I was at the door, I'm done. No, this is the moment. This is the moment. This is the moment. Now, now, now. So the object of pride can always be something that has occurred in the past.

But the past is not there.

So it's like this. Exactly. But there's great potential for it to be misunderstood. Like if you doing it without guidance of a teacher, you may say, but yeah, I have been at God's door many times.

Yeah. So I'm sorted, finished.

No, this is the moment he's talking about. It's that like: oh, but I just came to it. Correct. I'm just saying it out loud but these are the things I fall for.

Exactly. These are the spiritual traps that the mind lays. So this sage is saying we must come to God's door this moment. This moment this is the moment where all freedom is ours. But we cannot pack it in a bag and say now all freedom is mine. This moment. This moment.

So he's put the most difficult and simplest in the first line because it's a lifelong project. We have to remain at the door. We have to abide there where all insight, all love, all beauty is received by us. So to break the bounds of finality about the inside is a very beautiful job.

Say that again.

To break the bounds the the bonds of finality around the notion of insight about who I am is a very important and beautiful project because the same danger of pride: it's been sold to us as the top of the mountain. But it's really not. It's just a gift received at the door. Somebody receives the gift and says, see, see what I did? What did you do? You just received the gift. You see, and there is nobody who doesn't receive the gift in that moment of being at God's door. So that also takes care of our pride.

For a moment at God's door: who is aware of the perception of this hand? Anybody saying not I? Everyone has that inside. And yet and yet that is the most treasured and yet the simplest. Thank you for it's a very beautiful exploration.

Father when you were handholding her in the inquiry, okay so I tagged along. When you and there was a question that who is, when you said that you were in a witness box and been asked that who is it, how do you know it's me or I, that time or now, even now, the insight is it's I because it's only I that is existing now. Nothing else. Everything which is existing is I only Father.

Who perceives all existence?

That's I Father because there's nothing else than I.

So this because is the basis of your insight?

Because I don't see any other option there Father.

Okay but the intellect needs to negate and then settle on an option.

No. No no Father it's there because that is it. I mean it's there.

Yeah. This helplessness inability to explain is very important. The minute we start saying I know it is I because something then that is an attempt of the mind to try and understand this which is beyond understanding.

So can you walk me further than that Father?

Yeah. So the I that is aware of the perception of hearing these words, who is that I?

That's I. That's me. That's I, Father.

Yeah. How do you know? It's only me Father there. There's no one else.

Is that how you know? Is this conclusion how you know?

No. The conclusion is an outcome.

Yes. So leave the outcome. Leave the conclusion. You don't need to convince me. And you don't need to convince yourself. You have to stay in that place.

That's it. Father, stay there. I mean, that's that's the one you are referring.

It can sound simple now.

No, but.

You to avoid there. That is the stillness. That is the silence where these gifts of insight are received. So it's very good that we chopped off the intellect ambition to participate by giving rationalizations because this because of has to feel feel fully naked, fully without support.

Thank you for this Father. It's really precious. For you Father, in your journey, I wasn't here in the first five, seven years of when you were sharing Satsang. But based on what you said, most of it was qualitatively like self inquiry most of the time. And you've also shared that in your upbringing and the way you looked at the world it was from this atheistic standpoint prior to the shift for you. But the shift from self inquiry doing its work for you and then the sweet name of God doing that same work, what was that? Do you know what caused that transition or it just happened?

It's tough to say. It's tough to say. I don't know. It's just the Atma's curriculum.

Father, I just wanted to share: first of all thank you to you and Ma because we took itha uh on the weekend to our house. Ah yes very. It was very beautiful. Like you keep asking: if Ram is standing in front of you how will you behave? Yeah. I feel that I was able to give get a sense like I never had the answer how will I behave but when we took Vala it was like a constantly like what would please himchanting his name will please him, thinking will not please him, what would he like to have is he comfortable uh am I behaving bad with Zara or you know. We even had a fight and we both said oh this Vitala will not like it. So we actually wanted to apologize to Vitala. And so many miracles also happened. We chanted and danced on a har. And God called us in the same moment when we were sitting and trying to chant. We heard Bajanov she was, he had some event and she put us on video call. They were calling I was not able to answer.

It was very beautiful Father and it just felt like it was also like an answer: if we always ask, God is here, then I have the answer of how would we behave, like priority will be God and focus will be on God. And I want to continue with that. I don't want to lose it. Now we don't have him here but the focus has to be him. I want to remember that he's here and try to live it every day. Father, thank you.

Such a beautiful report. Thank you. And there is no dichotomy between what we are discovering: God's reality, our reality, to be nirakar nirun beyond attributes beyond birth and death beyond form beyond form and formlessness. And yet we trust God's mercy so much that he makes himself available to be loved in the way that we are able to love him. You see, so that whole thing about kasapraata on the on the brick: how have you the greatest, the unchanging, the one in whose light millions and millions of universes are born every moment and are swallowed up by you every moment, you have come for the sake of my love in front of me standing on a brick waiting for me. It is astounding his grace, his love, his mercy. You see.

But because our mind is dualistic, you see, it cannot fathom. It has to be either like this or like that. So the formless making himself available in form to be loved so that we can also meet him as the formless. So we don't settle on either form or formlessness. You see it's very beautiful. It's very good for our pride also. The minute we start to say no no no that is higher this is lower this is higher this is lower then we are stuck. Love him in whichever way our heart shows us to love him and to get guided into that holy reality of formlessness also it's beautiful so nice.

Father can I ask something?

Yes yes.

How will you translate them?

It's always translation.

It's related to what you were just saying. I still don't know how to ask the question. And I feel like maybe I'm not ready, but I'm opening up more to the practice of the repetition of the name throughout the day. And I feel like I'm just barely beginning. And

I feel like that also.

Okay. I feel like that also every day. Okay. And I don't know.

And I don't know. You know, you say Ram. Or I say Jesus. In your experience, when you say Ram and you're going through the day and then you remember to remember God and you say Ram, is there any part of that when you remember or when you're saying the name or when you think of the avatar Ram? Or is it just a symbol, the word is a symbol for the absolute, for God inside your heart?

Yes. Is that all of them? All of them at various times like that like I was saying about the mango. That mango then at every level of our being it can be met: memory, imagination, emotion, all places, all facets of ourselves can be met immersed in God's name. And it may change from time to time. And even if you say Jesus and you're thinking of Jesus or thinking of his compassion or his teaching or his time here, do we need to invite a transition from that to the abstract, to the formless?

We can do it in any way which feels best in that moment. Just this attempt to keep in the remembrance throughout the day: then we don't have to worry about taking it to the highest or lowest or any of that. So it is irrelevant whether there are images of Jesus or just we use that name because we want to be in the presence of God, because of faith.

Yes. Irrelevant. It's irrelevant. Yeah. Okay. I feel that it's mostly about faith and faith in God and faith in in you because often I'm just saying the name sometimes it is very clear that the name is more than just a name but sometimes it's more about faith and I feel that with time it's doing other things that I don't need to understand.

Absolutely. That's so irrelevant from our side of it. You see? Yeah. Irrelevant from our side of it. As long as we are taking refuge in his name, then the way that we are meeting it at which layer is irrelevant from our side of it. If he wills it so that he pulls us in this way, he gives us a taste of his unconditional love or we come into a deep silence or we feel like we are participating in his life in some way. All of these things may happen by his grace. So how we undertake the exercise, as long as we remain as fullheartedly as possible with God's name, it is irrelevant how it is met.

And it's a very difficult thing to say like it's irrelevant and yet with the more fullhearted love we bring to it the more we bring that awe of being in his presence, that that is still relevant. I don't know whether that's that's a contradictory answer or not but our job is to do it and then when that job seems more and more natural we offer more of ourselves, as much as is our capacity, to offer to him in terms of our love, in terms of being in his presence, in terms of our remembrance of his light in our heart. So but actually in in that carefree just remembrance of his name all of these deeper levels will be shown to us.

Okay. Irrelevant and relevant. I just wanted to play devil's salv because there's this thing that comes sometimes. So I'm just going to say it. You know that thing that they say: if the Buddha appears, kill it. Or like you said, I can't remember was it Father Lawrence? Who who was it that said if Mother Mary comes just say not now, dear? Or something like this. Yeah. So how how to reconcile this the first part of my question with this because this this objection that

Yes in our focus prayer that's what I was saying: before we end the prayer we make sure that we are making ourselves available to receive from him, to not drive the process anymore, to dive into that silence and stillness, which is very natural in our focus prayer.

Okay. That's really helpful, Father.

Yes. And then as you go along, the boundaries between our day-to-day activity, chanting, and focused prayer will also start to dissolve somewhere. So we'll talk about that as we go along. I don't want to make it too complicated at the moment. But just for now, when you take out a few minutes and just focus on remembering God, then before you end your focus prayer time, take a few minutes to just rest in that stillness. Allow him to drive. Allow him to show you whatever has to be shown. And in your focus prayer time, the proportion of cooking and eating may change as you go along. But in the constant remembrance of God's name, it's not so important right now. Just keep keep at it with his name.

You said the other day, just keep keep saying it. And if you keep if you keep saying it, taking the name will teach you to take it with love and with remembrance of his presence.

Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly not and I'm not the only confusing one in my own defense. I have to say because Gan was doing the hurry part. I don't know if you were in that group but um but he starts off by saying just take it just take it with your mouth nothing nothing else that's it and then later he says that if you are not taking it with love in your heart then what's the point even then later he says that rare is the one who does it with remembrance of God's presence and then taking the name you see so so I'm not alone in this uh no this in this operation.

No, it's okay. I'm okay with these contradictions. They they feel very they feel like like zenoans to me. So they're helpful for this mind that is too much.

Thank you, Father.

Very welcome. We love you. Thank you. Okay, let's go to Adrian. You can keep going.

Just quickly, Father. Wanted to ask you: when you say taking God's name, does it always have to be verbally with the mouth or it can also be inwardly?

Yeah. So it depends on the attention that you have available. In my case, if I'm working on some work which involves some calculation or spreadsheet and things like that then it seems like I have very little attention left to take it inwardly. So I need a more gross instrument. So in those times the mouth and lips come very handy. So I just keep going with the lips while the other aspects of my being may be caught up in some other thing that is required to be done at that point of time. But otherwise if nothing is requiring much of my attention then it's inward and when it is his grace then he chants it for me in the heart and I'm just witnessing that. So it depends on on our life situation at that moment of time but the more distracted we are the more gross the instrument can be.

So what about when talking to someone?

So then if you're talking like full attentiveness like there's one talking which is just like if I'm talking to my daughter, she's doing most of the work like she's talking. So it's very easy to inwardly just you know there's enough attention to be hearing her. I'm not neglecting her. I'm just hearing but there's enough capacity for it to happen inwardly. If it needs attentive talking, when I need to speak, you'll notice that if you've grooved it enough then it may happen in the backdrop by itself just because it becomes an inner habit to keep taking the name. Otherwise, every time you take a break, every time you give yourself a minute or two, then you can take it.

Bless you all.