The Attributes of a Bhakta - 19th February 2024

So when Ma said 'Maya is me-a,' she said Maya is 'me-a.' That is the temptation to give reality to the 'me.' So remember that we leave God's presence, we leave God's light, to cater to the non-existent egoic identity. And that is why it is called ignorance, Avidya. Maya is to take the unreal to be real and the real to be unreal. So don't just dip into your heart, get a true insight, and then contaminate it with your specialness or your ego. That is called spiritual ego. Know that all good things come only from His light. Atma Gyan is not something that you can take credit for, I can take credit for. It is a gift. And as long as we can still take ourselves to be this individual entity, this body-mind complex, we must only give it one place: this 'me' must be in servitude to God, a Bhakta of God. Not the spiritual achiever, not the finder, not the recognizer, because all of that is only a gift from Him. As long as there is duality, it is a gift from Him to us. And when there is no duality, then it is just He Himself shining in His own light.

So it may sound harsh, but I don't care at all about what you have understood. I don't even care about what your spiritual journey has been. I only care about one thing: Is His light shining in your heart now? And are you living in your heart temple? If there is a 'you,' so really simply only two questions are important: Have you found God, and are you living in His light? If you cannot answer with integrity to yourself when you are alone by yourself—you don't have to prove anything to Sangha, to me, nobody—if you cannot with integrity say that you have found God, then you must change your focus from everything external to a deep inner quest of self-discovery. Because when you go looking for yourself, you will meet God. But no other project, no other thing, should become as important as this for you. Okay?

And when you find Him, don't fall for the trap that that is the end of your spiritual quest. It is only the beginning of true spirituality, because only now have you come to the presence of Spirit. See, so far our quest has been to begin spirituality, and you come to Atma, which is the presence of God. That is when spirituality truly begins. And it is not that your mind is going to give up; it will try, maybe even harder, to make you special, to get you to become extraordinary in some way. Don't fall for those tricks and remain in His presence. And you come to the presence within only in the light of the Satguru's presence. Can you recognize the unperceivable? God's reality is non-phenomenal, Nirguna. But because His Maya, His Leela, was so intricate and so compelling, He gave us a gift of a presence that could be met as a primordial vibration, in the light of which the Nirguna, attributeless reality of God can be recognized. That is why the Guru is called the bringer of light. And the Guru is not the body sitting in front of you speaking; it is that very presence, the holy guide within yourself, of which this body is just an instrument. But in the light of that Guru within, you will recognize that which is unperceivable.

And in that way, this light is unique. All other light shines a light on that which is perceivable; only the Guru's light shines a light on that which is beyond perception, that which is boundless, that which is timeless. So when you do the inquiry, you ask yourself, 'Who am I?' If it is His grace and your intentions are not selfish, what you want is truly the truth, then the Atma within will reveal itself to you. And in the light of God's presence, God's reality will become apparent. And that is called self-realization, self-discovery, self-recognition. So true insight is possible only in the light of His presence. True love—so we talked about Gyan, insight—but true Bhakti is also possible only in the light of His presence. Because as I was saying, the source of love and the true recipient of unconditional love is Him, is God, is His presence.

So in the times where inquiry is not appealing to you, you're feeling like it is a mental exercise, it is just a wordplay, then love Him with all your heart. Don't ask how. This love with all your heart starting now. Don't be sitting in your heads worrying about nonsense; you have a chance to love Him right now. Now, some of you may report that 'I'm going through some things.' All squeeze in a bit. You're good. Some of you may say that 'I can't love Him right now. I have too much other stuff happening. I'm too upset with my relationships.' You see? 'Too upset in my relationships, I'm too worried about the future, about the money in the bank, about worldly concerns. I can't love Him. I want to, but I can't. There's too much anger, irritation, frustration. I can't.' So then the sages have provided us a solution. They said: Remember His name. Remember Him.

So whether you say Ram, Krishna, Jesus, Allah, Waheguru—doesn't matter. Whatever resonates with you deeply in your heart. And just like the memory, the remembering the name of a sweet child that you met will bring love automatically towards the child, in the same way, remembering His name will bring you into this love for Him. That is why we start with Laya Samadhi, where we use the name of God, and then we may deepen into Bhava Samadhi, where we remain in the anchor of His love to remain in the absolute silence but in the presence of His light. What is so beautiful about chanting or praying is that although many times it may start as a mental exercise, soon you will recognize that your heart itself loves to chant, loves to pray. The Atma, which is just an aspect of God, loves to be in prayer to its source, to where it came from.

The other beautiful thing about prayer is that it needs no special circumstances. You can do it all the time. Even if it seems mechanical to begin with, it is still better than focusing on the 'me.' In this way, we can learn to deepen in our love for Him, recognize the infinite love which is present in our heart. But Bhakti is not just love; it is deeper than love. You cannot live in a way of saying, 'Yes, I love God deeply, but I will do what my mind wants. Basically, I will do what I want.' So the other aspect of Bhakti is servitude, to follow His will. 'Let Thy will be done.' So we have Hanuman Ji there; he is the embodiment of this love and servitude. He sets the benchmark for all of us to try and reach, which is whatever be the will of God, he makes himself available to follow, no questions asked.

So when you come to His presence, allow Him to move you, allow Him to guide you. Don't live with the clutches of your mind. So in this Gyan and Bhakti, you have transformed your life from the way of the head, from the way of selfishness, from egotism, desire, to the way of the heart, which is the way of love, truth, and servitude to God. Our mind fights this aspect. It says, 'I wanted freedom; you're saying I have to be a servant.' You see? But it doesn't realize that we are servants either way. When there is a 'me,' it is either a servant to the mind or to God. Therefore, servitude to God is actually freedom. Servitude to the mind is actually oppression. Our life is hellish in the prison of the mind.

But we need faith, a deep faith in what your heart is showing you rather than what your mind is telling you. So it is not to believe more the spiritual compartment of your mind. This is a bit subtle, so if you can pay attention to this: many feel that faith is actually to believe spiritual thoughts or be convinced about spiritual thoughts. It is not that. It is to trust your heart insights, what the Guru within is telling you, more than what the world is showing you and the way the mind is interpreting the narrative of this play. Are we living like that, in faith to what our heart is showing us to be true? So what gets in the way? What gets in the way are pride. We still want to be something. You want to be some...

Attention to this: many feel that faith is actually to believe spiritual thoughts or be convinced about spiritual thoughts. It is not that. It is to trust your heart inside, what the guru within is telling you, more than what the world is showing you and the way the mind is interpreting the narrative of this play. Are we living like that, in faith to what our heart is showing us to be true? So what gets in the way? What gets in the way is pride. We still want to be something; you want to be someone. And don't feel that to be a spiritual someone is fine. It's not true. If your identity has now become spiritual and you take yourself to be a sadhu, it is still ego. And even much more so would be if you take yourself to be free or enlightened or a master. It is just a level confusion. Master is the light within yourself, the holy presence within yourself, the Atma within. The name that you identify with, the form that you identify with, has nothing to do with that. So stay away from the spiritual traps of specialness. Even if the whole world is falling at your feet, calling you mahaguru, sitting on a big pedestal, it doesn't mean anything at all because all is His gift, His grace. All that is good only comes from Him. So humility is really important to remain in God's presence. In one moment of pride right now, you can lose His presence—not that in actuality it goes anywhere, but in the play of Maya, it seems to get hidden in avidya. True vidya is hidden. So no pride, just humility.

This may sound very obvious to say what I'm going to say next, but to be in servitude to God, you have to follow what He's saying. That obedience is needed. We may not like the word obedience again; it may sound like servitude again. But to follow His will is important. Most of us rush in and we don't wait even to find out what His will is. Something happens and we are already rushing. So remember, the rushing is one of the tools of the mind. It rushes you. There's no time, there's no time to go deep within yourself. 'Come, come, come, this is a worldly thing.' And it will compartmentalize; it'll say, 'This is a practical issue, it is not spiritual. It's a practical matter.' So who is running this practical world of ours? Who is running light and sound and magnetism and electricity and gravity? What keeps apparently keeps these particles that we call the body together? Who is beating your heart? Is that a practical matter or a spiritual one? All these trillions of planets and stars, who is running them? So it is only pride which says, 'No, no, this is not a matter for God, this I have to do.' And it is just pride to say that 'this I have to do' because how do you do? I'm glad nobody said, 'I'm fine, thank you.' So we don't know how to do. We don't know how to move a finger. We just have theories. 'Oh, the neurons activate the nervous system.' Fire one neuron and show me who knows how to do it. So we don't know, but we are quick to take credit.

We don't know whether this is a dream state or a waking state. We don't know whether they are different in the first place. We don't know if our memories are showing us perceptions of an apparent time of the past or if it's just made up. If you really start looking for what you actually know, you'll surprise yourself. So this false pride of doership, of individual knowledge, must be handed over. Allow His presence to move you. Allow His presence to speak to you and guide you. So obedience to His will is very important. It is said that higher than all His other pointings, He said you must follow the command of God. That's so, so important. We put the reminder over there that all our mental smartness, all our spiritual experiences, all our tactics—nothing will work, but to follow His will is the most important.

I remember Ram Ji said one day, 'What about gratitude?' and it really touched me. I feel like gratitude, gratefulness, is really important, you see. And if you look at it, we are full of ingratitude, and I'm including this one, of course. Most of you make the claim that you have come to God's presence. It is a staggering claim in the world. If we collectively went to the world and said all of us have met God's presence, they would lock us up or something. But most of you make that claim. Where is the gratitude for meeting God? How do we still mope in our lives? You've come to God, you've come to His presence, His light also, we say. Do we feel thankful? Do we feel grateful about that? He has blessed us with this highest recognition, God-realization, but we still find ways to be unhappy. And it is not possible to be grateful and unhappy at the same time. What else do we need to happen in our life for us to be grateful to Him? What are we waiting for to give thanks to His grace? To Guruji, who said, 'Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you' is your highest mantra. So all of these are the attributes of a bhakta. And both Gyan and Bhakti are two wings of the same bird. You don't have to determine for yourself, 'Am I a gyani? Am I a yogi?' Let Him find the way to Him that resonates with your heart. To feel the longing for the truth, for God in your heart—and whether you say truth or God, it doesn't matter. If you're searching for the truth, you will find Him. If you're searching for Him, you will find the truth. That is why in India we say Satyam Shivam Sundaram. I mean truth, the highest God, and beauty—true beauty—are the same.

Father, you talked about Bhakti today, and recently the forwarded video of St. Teresa's Inner Castle and Seven Mansions was there. It's so beautiful, Father. In that, Father, you have multiple times assured me or assured us that we have witnessed the same God which those greats have witnessed. And even though, Father, I see the level of Bhakti of, let's say, St. Teresa or Kalidas or Ramdas or Hanuman is way beyond I can even imagine for myself, Father. So it feels like it will not happen in this life. Yeah, so their Bhakti level, their dedication is way beyond, Father. Please help.

Yes, I also feel that. Like, I also feel for this one, for this foolish one, not possible. Because such great luminous lights the world has seen. But what is our job? Our job is to commit fully. Commit fully. The mind will tempt us, we will go with it, we will be foolish, we will fail. But our job is to return to Him and keep returning to Him like the prodigal son. So we must emulate. Why do we put up pictures? Why do we put up photos or sculptures, idols? We put them up because they are a reminder for us to emulate. And you must emulate to the best of what we can.

I can ask one more, Father? You also mentioned about the new fourth way of knowing if you are with God is your perception, Father, that you will be... I tried that, Father. But even so, let's say I perceive a picture of a very beautiful baby, right? And before even I'm putting any attributes about good eyes or chubby cheeks or all, I already like it at the same time. Or I can say a picture of Krishna, I will definitely like it even before the definition or giving any attribute. At the same time, if I have side by side another picture of, let's say, a heap of garbage, Father, I will resent or hate. I will not like it, dislike it. So even before putting any perception... so my question is that liking or disliking is part of pure perception already, or it has an intrinsic quality?

So just like that, which one is Krishna? The left one, Father? Huh? The left one. So a great sage had a great disciple one time. The disciple had important responsibilities, and the time with the sage was done. So the sage said, 'Okay, goodbye. You can go back to your household, but don't forget what I've taught you.' So one day many years had passed, and the sage felt like he will go and meet his disciple, but he wanted to check on him. So he went in a disguise as a beggar. So he went to the town. In the town, he saw his disciple, and at the same time the king's parade was happening. The king was on top of the elephant. You know the story? The king was on top of the elephant. So the sage goes and stands next to the disciple, but he's in disguise. So he nudges the disciple and says, 'Brother, what is happening here?' The disciple gets irritated. 'Can't you see the king is going?' Then he says, 'Oh, the king is going. Okay, okay, brother. Which one is the king?' Then the disciple is starting to get more irritated, like, 'The one there, can't you see that one?' 'No, which one?' 'The one that is up is the king and the one that is down is the elephant,' you know. So then this sage, he gets on top of his disciple's back and he says, 'Brother, which one is up and which one is down?' And in that moment, the disciple recognized that this can't be anybody else but my master. Which is up and which is down? Which is Krishna and which is the phone? What is yesterday? What is tomorrow? Can you notice that these are just mental categories used to frame narratives of limitations, used to frame narratives of me being a body-mind?

There's another version of the same story. It goes: so the sage climbs on his back and the sage says, 'Who's on top of who, brother?' The disciple said, 'The one on top is the king, the one below is the elephant.' Where is the guru? Where is the disciple? So we have to return to the innocence of a child. A sheer intelligence is running his life, but he is not labeling. She is not labeling. A child is not born saying, 'Ah, mother, mother, love.' And yet the child knows. She knows. So we have lost touch with that intuitive knowledge which makes the plants grow and the birds fly. They don't know north, south, east, west. Our life must be lived in God power now. The engine that is driving this life must be God's. Not we. Tired of this, we're done with this. Let Him move you, let Him guide you. He does not need you to categorize to understand. All that is needed in the moment will come to your mouth, to your hands, to your feet. Live empty of all of this.

You know, for many years I would hear the stories of God, the beautiful gathas, the Bhagavad Gita, Ashtavakra Gita, Ribhu Gita, Avadhuta Gita, but I would not meet them literally. I'd meet them poetically, metaphorically. Read the Yoga Vashistha and you're feeling like, 'What fantastic stories.' But you have to meet these stories. You have to meet satsang like we are asking for direction. Is it which way, which way is my home? So you're told, 'Okay, go take a straight here, take a right there, you will find this, follow that.' Follow like that. If you meet them romantically, poetically, if you meet them through the lens of your own understanding, if you're sitting in satsang and you're only confirming what you think you already know, then you're just serving your pride instead of being open. Because it is a pathless path. You have to get a sense of the way, and the sense will be gotten intuitively. You just have to follow.

It is not meant for you, generally speaking. We have to take the pointings very literally, otherwise they'll just become a spiritual understanding in our head. To follow His will, to become a true bhakta, is a moment-to-moment thing. Right now, are you being guided by your mind or by the Atma within? Is the focus on God or me? See, you will not be able to follow if you have hard positions on things. If you've taken hard positions about this, about the nature of reality, about what things are, about how the world works, then to return to the innocence, you must start by softening up a bit. Soften whatever you think you know, then you will be able to keep it aside. Otherwise, even to live open and empty will become a position that you make. Emptiness will become the new position. So first loosen your grip a bit, then your heart will start to shine a bit more. If you know too much, then you don't make enough room for God's light to go. I was saying that if we know too much, then we don't make room for God's light, for the heart light to pervade our life. Sorry, we just have a small mic with no... no, it's not for this room, otherwise I would have used it also for listening on Zoom. Okay. How I press this? To press? Okay.

Guruji, you spoke earlier about Bhakti and Gana being the wings of two wings of the same bird, and you just now mentioned that make room for God in your heart in our day-to-day lives. Would a prerequisite...

I was saying that if we know too much, then we don't make room for God's light, for the heart light to pervade our life. So, we just have a small mic with no—no, it's not for this room, otherwise I would have used it also for listening on Zoom. Okay, how I press this? To press? Okay.

Guruji, you spoke earlier about Bhakti and Gana being the wings of—two wings of the same bird. And you just now mentioned that we should make room for God in our heart in our day-to-day lives. Would a prerequisite be, at least a start, be through prayer?

Yeah, yes. When we turn to Him, then He shows us the way step by step. And you will also look back at your life, like I look back at mine, and see that every step of the way He sent me the right book to read, the right video on YouTube, the right—He clears it up. So our job is to really full-heartedly, wholeheartedly turn to Him. The method He will provide. And I've always said that method is secondary to intention. If your intention, if your deepest wish, longing, is to find Him and live in His light, then the method will come to you. There's no doubt about that.

So whether you wake up one morning and you feel that, 'I'm going to really find out who I am. Who am I really? Who is witnessing these thoughts? Who is witnessing this realm of perception?' Or whether you wake up and you say, 'God, how can I serve You now? How can I love You deeply now?' Once we turn inward, then all of this happens. And why it's important—and of course I stole the bird metaphor from Bhagavan—why it is important to mention that is that once we categorize ourselves too strongly as a Gani or a Bhakta, then we sort of close the door to the other half of it, which is also beautiful. So we have to keep it moment to moment, light, and to follow what is resonating in our heart in that moment without categorizing too strongly. But Bhakti is a beautiful way to start because to remember the name of God, to start with just Ram, is so sublime and so direct.

So the two main questions are: Have you found God? And then, if that is true, then are you living in His light? Then my job actually is just to be an assistant, to serve you. If you have doubts, questions about any of this, about the inquiry, about praying, chanting, serving Him—what are the day-to-day difficulties that you have? Because I know that all of you carry the best intentions. You want to live in the light of the presence within. But what stops you and how can I help?

I have to rely on my own ideas of what I have to do. I have trust in that rather than letting it unfold on faith.

So that's why the first method is to short-circuit that first thing in the morning. Are you trying that? What happens?

I try it sometimes. It's fine. Other times it's—when that fear comes up, I go immediately to prayer.

So you wake up in the morning, then it's usually the prayer right away? Before presence is palpable then, mostly? Or—

I honestly don't know really what that presence is because there's like an evaluation that comes up. 'Is this the—?'

Okay, so that's what we must work on then together to start with, because that is the most important connection, the most important anchor in our life. And you actually can't do it wrong, you see. If you notice that there is a presence, it's your presence, it's His presence. There's no distinction. So right now, can you check? Doesn't matter what the mind is saying. Let it come. Don't try to stop it. Let it come and go. Don't get bullied by it. It's giving you conclusions like, 'Oh, you just start evaluating.' Let it go. Don't worry. There's no rush. Can you stop being?

Can't stop being.

Are you noticing this or are you inferring this? No proof is from the—the evidence is from the experience. The evidence is from the actual—the conclusion of that search.

Yes, the evidence comes out of the search. Can I stop being? Yes.

With which instrument do we conduct the search?

It's almost like a checking in my own living experience. Can I stop? Yes. But when the evidence is present, the presence is present, then—

Is that in the form of a perception or an intuitive insight?

It's almost like a withdrawing directly to who I really am. The place from which everything else can be seen. That's when the mind starts dropping.

Yeah, then you realize, 'Oh, it was thought.' So that place—is that perceived? How—what is the mode of knowledge with which we even speak about this presence or that place or the heart altar, whatever you want to call it? Many words for it.

Like it's—you can call it reality. I'm more drawn to that word.

Yes, but is it reality? It is. It is known, but it's not perceived. So what is that distinction between knowing—and by knowing I'm presuming you're not saying just conceptually known. See, it is met, but not met with perception. See, which itself is quite absurd, isn't it? Is there a phone in my hand? So if someone came to you and said, 'I don't perceive it, but I know there is one,' you would say this one is loony. And yet when we, in the inward search, in the inward journey, we come to the presence of being. The presence has a—the subtlest primordial perception, like the subtlest. But we cannot really say that we perceive it because it's on the cusp of phenomena. The cusp of phenomena. It is not the pure Nirguna, the pure non-phenomenal, you see.

The Atma is—that's why sometimes I say it's both, where you can notice its presence. Some may notice it in the heart, some may notice it around the body. But when I say, 'What is its boundary?' we say that it is boundless. And we cannot perceive the boundless. So that is the knowledge that you're talking about, see? It is known but not perceived. And yet in its primordial, it is also the subtlest vibration that 'I am.' In the heart of the Absolute 'I' emerges this vibration 'I am.' And although that I-amness itself is boundless, yet it is Saguna in its being, in its presence. The ability to meet that—and we must not try to understand too much what I'm saying, just follow in the heart. So when we wake up, this presence wakes up within the Nirguna reality. Within the noumenal, this phenomenal breaks up and we say, 'I woke up. I am.' Are you able to follow?

Two things happen. One is, as you're seeing them, there's a recognition. It's very simple, very straightforward, sober, real. But there's also like a validation checking that's incessant. You know, it'll always check, 'Is it really that?'

What are you more interested in?

The more relaxing.

Okay, so stay there. Does anything force you to go with that validation, approval, all that stuff?

I've been listening to it for a very long time. Many years.

That's okay, but do you want to make it longer? I believe the doubts stop, you see. Because again, we will have this conversation few years later, then we will say it's been even longer now. So what is the time to stop? Now. Has to stop now, you see. Because it may be a long time, but it doesn't make you powerless because you are Consciousness, you see. You still have the power to let go of identity or not let go of identity. And if you did not have that power, then there is no point in Satsang, you see. Then it's just we have to wait. There's no point of being pointed to, see? Of Guruji saying 'Don't identify,' of Papa saying 'Be quiet,' of Bhagavan saying 'Don't enter the stream of thoughts,' if it could not be done by you.

Just because a tantruming baby asks for your attention doesn't mean that you give it to it.

It's almost like it's too late. That's the message from—

Where? Yeah. Is your heart saying too late now? It's closed? Atma window closed? No, no. So careful of these messages from the mind, because if you value them, then they will seem valuable. But the value is given by you. What is your heart saying? It's not relevant, huh? Those messages are not relevant. It doesn't speak of truth. Your heart is saying that those messages are not relevant. It's showing us—no, it's showing us that we can just safely let them go. So as difficult as it may seem, and if you go along with the mind's reasoning, then we will be stuck like that. So no matter how important it seems when it says, 'It's been so long, there's no chance for you now, you're a lost cause,' all this nonsense it'll say, but there's always a chance. It's never too late. But you have to commit to only be guided by your heart. And then we will fail. All of us will fail. And then we have to commit again. And this story is not oppressive or morose to say we commit and we fail and we commit and we fail. It is actually because when we commit and before failing, it is living in His temple, in His light.

You must not buy into any of its ideas. As I remember I told you this before, you get stuck in diagnostics. Okay? If you get stuck in diagnostics, then the mind will constantly play doctor, doctor, and you will never leave it. 'This is what's happening to me, this is what's happening to me, this is what's happening to me. Then this happens to me, this happens to me.' Leave all that checker guy stuff.

Yeah. In meditation and I'm sitting, I'm an observer of my mind. I can go into a deep silence, but I'm aware of my silence. So who's observing even awareness? There's an awareness behind that awareness. So how do I get there? Sometimes I feel I'm in silence, I can sit, but I want to—I have had this practice. How do I get beyond that?

Well, excellent. Thank you. Thank you for that question. You said, 'I am aware of even that silence.' And 'I am aware even that I'm aware.' How do you know that it is you? Are you perceiving this 'I'?

Not through the mind.

Not through the mind. Are you perceiving it objectively in any way through your senses?

No.

And yet, even if I told you it is not you that is aware of the silence, you will say, 'You don't know what you're talking about. It is I that is aware of the silence.' You see? So is that just because you heard this concept somewhere that it is 'I' which is aware? Is it conceptual knowledge?

No.

So it's neither perceptual nor conceptual. Then what is it?

That's what I—I don't know.

And we're looking at it together. So it's absurd, isn't it? It's strange because everything else, it seems like I perceive. You see, how many fingers? Oh, five. I perceive them. Is the earth stationary or is it moving? It's moving, although our perception is stationary. So sometimes conceptual knowledge gets higher value from us, you see. But this 'I,' you say, 'I neither perceive it nor do I have just a notion of it.' It is very apparent to me that it is 'I' which is aware, isn't it? It's apparent to you, isn't it, that you are aware of the silence? But this apparency is through what mode of knowledge? That is what is confusing, isn't it? So this is what we call intuitive insight or heart knowledge or Satguru or Atma Darshan. This is where it is beyond perception and it is beyond concept, and yet it is clear to you that it is 'I.' Now if somebody comes and tells you, 'Can you draw this I out? Can you draw this I? Does it have a shape?'

No. That is only silence. Only silence.

Well, you said, 'I am aware of even that silence.' Yes. So there is the 'I' which is aware even of the silence. Does that 'I' have a shape?

No.

Doesn't have a shape. Any quality? Any attribute?

No.

That is why it is Nirguna. But—

How do I get beyond that?

First let's live in that, then let's see. Okay? So just—I'll answer the question because I know that you're probably visiting only for today. That which has no attribute, can it have a 'beyond'? Only attributes can have 'beyond.' On closer—you see, all these temporal and spatial things only belong to the realm of attributes. That which has no attribute, has no shape, no color, no location—is it so? The locationless, how can we go beyond? If it was somewhere, then I could say, 'Yes, this is how you visit and this is how you go beyond.' But it's nowhere and everywhere. Is that your insight as well? Can you confirm that you cannot pinpoint where that 'I' is?

Yes. Well, I try to focus on my heart.

Yes, and that is perceived, isn't it? You see? So you, which is locationless, is perceiving, is aware of the perception of the primordial sense in your heart. Is it like this?

Mhm. Yeah.

But the 'I' itself, which is aware of even—

If it was somewhere, then I could say, 'Yes, this is how you visit and this is how you go beyond.' But it's nowhere and everywhere. Is that your insight as well? Can you confirm that you cannot pinpoint where that 'I' is?

Yes. Well, I try to focus on my heart.

Yes, and that is perceived, isn't it?

Yes.

You see, so you, which is locationless, is perceiving, is aware of the perception of the primordial sense in your heart. Is it like this?

Mhm, yeah.

But the 'I' itself, which is aware of even the primordial sense in your heart, that you cannot really say is in your heart, isn't it? That is just where your attention is going. Yes. So where is this 'I'? So where you know this, where you recognize this 'I' which is aware, stay there. Okay? Don't rely on any other mode of knowledge than that. I get that point. Thank you. Anything that is perceivable is limited by its qualities or by its conceptual definition. I'll come to you in a moment. So if anything that is perceivable is limited, you can only seek that which is limited. Yeah. So how to seek? When we say we can only seek that which is limited, it is because the usual tools of seeking in the world are limited, which is perception and thinking. But I'm introducing you to the mode of knowledge which is unlimited.

How do you use that then? We can't seek it.

Yes, because when you go to the Satguru presence within, the Atma within, within the Atma, everything is already known. You see, it is known, but that doesn't mean that what you know there can be squeezed immediately into our head and understood, you see? And that is why when I say, 'Is it not known over there already?' many may say, 'But I don't know,' you see? Because it is still ineffable and the mind is only a container for concepts, you see? But through the grace of the Atma within, you may find that over a period of time, even the concepts to communicate your insight may be provided to you. So although everything in an unlimited way is instantly known intuitively, because there is no seeking or trying like you said, intuitively you cannot say, 'Try harder with your intuition.' You can try harder with our perception or our thinking—'Oh, this,' you see? You can try harder like that, but you cannot try harder with your intuition. You just have to surrender to your intuition, you see? Surrender the mind, surrender perception, and rely on intuition. There, instantly, everything is known, but not necessarily known at the surface level, which is in your mind or in your senses. So that's why I was saying to her that you must stay there. So then our insights deepen, our Atma Gyan starts permeating through our life, even in this Leela. So don't make any attempt to squeeze what you know here into a conceptual understanding because it will become a new burden. Allow yourself to live from here. And that is why someone like Maharaj, who was illiterate, didn't even go to school, his words have been transcribed and that has become such a beautiful scripture, 'I Am That.' It is because the heart provides the words when it is the right time. So it doesn't have to do anything to do with our education, what we have read, what we have learned. So stay away from inferences. You say, 'Okay, therefore this, that.' So this, therefore that. It's all right for negation, it's all right, but don't make any positive conclusions from your inference. You can do the Neti Neti. 'I am perceiving this, so I'm not this. I'm perceiving this, so I'm not this.' You can negate. But if you try to make a positive conclusion, 'Therefore I must be...' that is the last point at which they kind of use that 'Ergo,' you see? Which is the trap. No, the last point, or maybe you were just using it for communication. So that 'Ergo,' it is not self-recognition. It is the final inference that even to doubt if I exist, I must be there to doubt. So it becomes an inference. So the path of spirituality is to come to direct insight and not rely on even that very true-seeming inference, and that requires you to surrender.

I was just checking in to see how much of this is coming from my mind, and I think it's one of those things I just need to really sit on and contemplate. But it's about the primordial vibration and the question that comes is: is it limited to the body?

So let's find out first if there's a difference in these two questions: 'Can I stop being now?' and 'Am I aware now?' Can I stop being now and am I aware now? Does that lead to a qualitative distinction in the insight? Is there any difference in the answer? Try to stop being. They seem to lead to the same. Try to stop being. Have you stopped being? What do you notice that you say, 'I'm still here'?

Well, there's a knowingness. There's a knowingness, just a raw knowingness. Yeah. And it seems to vibrate in this body, in we could say the heart region, sometimes it's the stomach region. But also it doesn't seem to be even... the Nirguna aspect is even that vibration itself doesn't seem to be...

Okay, so if I was to say, how do you know that you are awake without relying on any perception, what would you say? No sight, no hearing, no taste, no smell, nothing. Are you awake?

Yes.

What is that wakefulness?

Again, it seems to be just a note that knowing, even without knowing something. Before there's something to know, there's just this.

Yes, but what is this? Would it be the... this is what is meant by the primordial vibration? I'm asking, does it resonate like that or no?

Yes. If you... is this because... is it limited to time and space? Maybe is another... it might not be limited to the body.

What is getting in the way of your inquiry is your knowledge. Yes. So leave your mind. Just return to innocence first and just allow your heart to speak. Even this interaction, for mind tries to draw some conclusions and say something, just let it go. Let it go. Today's conclusions are tomorrow's confusion.

Can I just share one more thing from the heart? Or I think so. In this I-amness, it seems like until the mind suggests 'I am a body,' no such concept even... it's just this. The mind says 'I am.' There's no 'I am.' So the mind says 'I am this,' suggests 'I am this body.'

I am. Yes, of course. There is no 'I am this body.' It's just this 'I am.' That's why that was the point of that story. Who is on top and who at the bottom? Which one is the phone and which one is Krishna? Where is Krishna not? When did you come? I didn't see you. Yeah. Did you go to sleep last night? You slept very well. So then when you woke up, what happened? So what is the first thing? First, the evidence that you woke up is being has been observed by awareness, which is aware of even sleep, the absence of being and the presence of being. Otherwise, we could not report on sleeping, on deep sleep. You are aware even of the absence of it. It can seem like there was nothing, even being was not there, I was not there in sleep. But who saw that I was not there? So being is slightly more bodily than being aware. It's more... thank you. Like, 'I didn't know I was there.' Yes, because the mind cannot store, you see, cannot report on it because it's the sheer absence of being and not being, the absence of every quality, even darkness or light, time, space. So we have to become very careful not to imagine some dark empty space and say that is awareness, you see? It's not that. It's beyond what is witnessing even that, which is what is aware of the perception even of that.

So Father, when we wake up, it is the awareness that comes first? When we wake up, it's the realization. Did you sleep last night?

Yeah, yeah. Who's aware of that? Somebody told you you were sleeping? No, you know you slept. How do you know?

Actually, I didn't sleep. I didn't sleep properly yesterday.

Yeah, you slept. Sometime you must have slept. Yeah, you're looking rested actually, deeply. Even if it's Turiya state, you are aware of it.

So that's what I was wanting to ask, Father. Turiya, it's first Turiya, Father. What to say about Turiya?

You can only meet it. That's why when a little bit when we are sleepy, Father, it's more evident that... Have you ever fallen asleep in Satsang? No? I have to make it more boring. All the others have at least fallen asleep once. He's nodding very vigorously. Most like when I'm not getting sleep, this is my cure for insomnia. So who knows about sleep state? Did we read about it from a book? Did we know that there's nothing there because we read it in a book? We know, but we say that even I was not there, there's nothing there. So that nothingness is noticed by you because you are that 'no thing' which is beyond perception and beyond concept. The same one which is aware of your being, of your waking right now, that remains unchanging. So that unchanging reality is you. So to recognize what we know so innocently in our sleep state in the waking state is self-recognition. Because in the waking state, Maya confuses us, compels us, tells us this is true. But I am the same one which is beyond waking, dream, sleep, Turiya. That is Shiva.

Father, yeah, of course. Father, I want to share one more thing, Father. Louder, so they hear. Sorry. So when you're talking about... I didn't yesterday sleep. There was very... I had very disturbed sleep in that, you know, something something bad was happening and I was constantly chanting 'Om Namah Shivaya, Om Namah Shivaya.' And I was aware of that, Father. Was it this realm or some other realm? Dream state or...

It was in the dream state. Good. The screen is the same, the light is the same, just these universes change, you see? And just to make sense of it, we say that was dream state and this is waking state. Where is this world right now? Is it outside? Outside what? And when we go inside, where do we go? Inside what? It's so common, no? 'Go inside.' Even I said, 'The one who turns inwards is always happy.' But inwards where? The mind says, 'Inside, inside you.' So that means inside the body? Then you would be... it would be like an X-ray machine. If you went inside the body, then you would see bones and flesh and blood. But there is an inside which is not inside the body. And in that inside, we say we had the dream in which everything was there, mountains and rivers. So is this that dream? Could we have had exactly this moment happening in a dream? Yeah, you could have. This could be... you could wake up right now and say, 'This man was saying some stupid stuff.' No? So say that. So we don't know. So is this happening inside or outside? We don't know. But inside what and outside what? We don't know. That's why I'm saying if you soften up on what we think to be true, then what is mentioned in our scriptures like Yoga Vasistha and Ashtavakra Gita will become more accessible to us. But if you hold on very deeply to our notion of the nature of reality, then it will seem too far-fetched. Okay? If you are clear that you are just an object in this whole wide world, then we can never meet Ashtavakra or Dattatreya or Ribhu, any of these sages. So we must loosen what we take to be true, then they are more accessible. This is what I'm in. Thank you for this conversation because this is what I'm in. What gets in the way is our knowledge. What we take to be true is so deeply embedded. 'So I am just this body-mind in this whole wide world universe,' you see? 'I'm this tiny thing.' Whereas all the sages are trying to tell you that the universe is just a tiny thing in you. So if you hold on to such a strong impression of what you are, then it's impossible to meet that. Is the universe an object in you, or are you an object in the universe? Is this body your body, or is this world your body? Who are you?

Somebody raised their hand. So they say that there is a lot of bliss in the meditative state. So as a beginner, how do you get there? And when you say you let go, how do you do that?

So let's start with the second question. So we say, 'Let go.' Let go of what? Let go of our thoughts, we say. So the Zen master said, 'Keep your front door open, keep your back door open. Thoughts are visitors, let them come and go. Don't serve them tea.' So what is the tea that we should not serve them? That is the way to let go. So what are the two ways in which Consciousness can engage with the thought? Let's look at that.

As a beginner, how do you get there? And when you say you let go, how do you do that?

So let's start with the second question. So we say let go; let go of what? Let go of our thoughts, we say. So the Zen master said, 'Keep your front door open, keep your back door open. Thoughts are visitors; let them come and go. Don't serve them tea.' So what is the tea that we should not serve them? That is the way to let go. So what are the two ways in which Consciousness can engage with the thought? Let's look a little deeper into this so that we can really explore what is this let go.

What are the two ways? A thought comes; thought is perceived, isn't it? How is the thought perceived? That itself is a beautiful contemplation, but in some way, it is perceived. So perception happens with attention. So what our attention goes to, we say that we are perceiving that, okay? So the first tool of Consciousness is attention. Now, just with attention to the thought, would that be called serving it tea? Could it be in a way like many yogic sadhus are trying to withdraw their attention and keep it centered on a mantra, on their breath, on something else, so that attention doesn't go? But even if attention went, have we identified with the thought yet?

Suppose that two thoughts came. First thought was, 'Oh, the weather in Switzerland is not suiting me right now.' That was the first thought. And the second thought came and said, 'Bangalore is so crowded.' So what do we identify with more? Both are given attention; that's why we are able to say the thoughts at this, see? So there's a second power of Consciousness, which is belief, see? Which is to give truth value, which is to say that this notion actually captures reality in some way, is a true determinant of what it is. Therein lies the trick. So to not serve them tea—because the visitors are noticed, that's why we say thoughts are visitors, let them come and go—don't serve them tea is don't grasp, don't believe, don't identify.

Exactly, yeah. Just let them come. In any case, the follow-up is a fallacy because we don't know how to create a thought.

You see, that's another thought which tells us we create the follow-up thought. Because can you tell me what your next thought is going to be? Maybe something related to the traffic in Bangalore, something that happened. So it'll come, isn't it? So it's just going to come, but nobody can say, 'I can predict what' or 'I'm going to create my next.' It's just something that comes. So allow all of them to come and go, you see? Don't grasp at them, don't believe them, because the Buddha told us that grasping is suffering, you see? He was not talking about a worldly grasping; he was not saying don't grasp this, don't grasp this. He's talking about this grasping which is with belief, with identification, because that leads to attachment, that leads to identification of yourself as a limited body-mind.

So what is the way to let go? Let them come, let them go. Let them come, let them go. Now, initially what will happen, and even later it will happen like that, is that some thoughts will seem really important and we will believe them. But when we notice that we are falling into that mental trap, then we return to just letting go.

You have to work at it?

Yes, yes. It's not easy. It's simple, but not easy.

It's the training basically.

Yes. Well, we can't predict. There may be some who come, hear this for the first time, and they're like, 'Oh, I'm done,' see? And some foolish one like this one is still working at it. Am I 100% free from belief in any thought? Of course not. Still a work in progress.

What is attention?

What is attention? Attention is attention. It's very primal in the sense that when you are conscious, you see, then these very primal forces are like the hands of Consciousness: attention, belief. Then when attention and belief are given, it forms the identity. So how do you—maybe an indirect way of answering that question—if your attention is still here, which is maybe an indirect way of answering that question, is to distinguish awareness from attention. What is the difference between awareness and attention? Explore.

Attention is something active. Awareness is passive from what I see.

But I call it the phenomenal twin of awareness because both are pretty Nirguna; they don't have a distinct shape, color, size, quality, you see? But why do I see phenomenal twin? Because this one is limited. So if your mind is telling you something and I'm saying something and someone else starts talking from there, you see, then you're like, 'Okay, okay, only one at a time.' So it is limited as opposed to awareness. So attention is the tool of perception which Consciousness has given to itself in some way, but it is not unlimited in its nature, unlike awareness. So it is limited, like you said. It seems active, but actively controlled by whom? Consciousness itself, the being itself, see?

When I look, it feels like it's a laser which is in my hand, and let's say if I take my attention to here, I can see certain vibrations happening. But I'm taking it; it's I'm pointing the torch to what is that torch. And sometimes I'm doing it; a lot of the times it's going haywire. So who is the 'I' which is controlling the attention? And another way to ask that question is: who is attention reporting back to with the content? You see, you said like vibration, this. So when the content is coming from an apparent world, who is seeing that? Who is hearing that? Me. Or who is that one? It's me.

You as body-mind?

No, no, it's me. This 'me' is the being, is the one. Now, what is aware even of this one? Can attention go to that? It can't go to that. That is why that insight is purely intuitive; it is not perceptual like we were talking about earlier. That beyond perception, beyond concept, there where even attention cannot go, although in the process it may seem to get withdrawn from that which we call the world, is it? But to that it cannot go. And that's also how it is distinct from reality, distinct from awareness. So in the waking state, in the presence of being, attention and belief are present, are available to Consciousness to take this narrative, to take this world and narrative to be as true or as untrue as it was.

See, when you say it, it's absolutely clear. There's no doubt. And in the day also, there are moments suddenly where it becomes absolutely clear and then it goes away. And then again when it hits, it's a déjà vu feeling again and again. It feels like what was happening feels like I was sleepwalking; it sort of feels like that. And suddenly you broaden that, but it happens again and again and again. And it takes just a notification on my mobile phone; I look at it and the whole engine starts to follow it.

That is why the sages have prescribed these anchors, you see? Whether the anchor is the inquiry, or it is to remain with the sense of 'I am,' or it is to love God, or it is to just be empty. So these anchors—or it is to chant the name of God, or to pray to God—the anchors have been given because even in spite of knowing the truth that going here will only cause trouble, see, Maya is compelling; it grabs us. So what is it? Is there a tool that you're using? Is there something that you're using to try and remain empty of mental oppression, mental grasping?

This reminder to remain empty. Yeah, like that I said. If I just take some time out to sit without any preoccupation, after all the wandering, it comes back.

If your sense is that that is helping, it is deepening and you're remaining empty of mental oppression for more and more, then that is perfectly fine. Otherwise, don't be scared in a way to use any of the tools which are available in spirituality. Sometimes we also feel that, 'No, no, I should be like no practice, just...' but you have to be true to yourself. The idea is not to like win with God in a proud way, but just remain with God in whichever way it helps us. Thank you. Pass the mic back.

We talked about the thoughts, letting it go. For me, the hardest part, I can say, keep saying 'I'm not the body, I'm not the body,' that's just in my mouth; it's not happening. So that's the biggest attachment. The biggest attachment is to the body, yes. Without the thoughts attached to the body... can you please repeat that?

Yeah, so many ask this question: 'How do I lose body consciousness? How do I detach from the body?' But I am proposing to you that if you let these thoughts come and go, you are not attached to your body. It's a thought too. That doesn't mean that you will not notice the sensations that we call the body. So those will still be noticed, but that will be same notice as the world. But is there a notion that it is my body without a thought? So attachment to body means I take it to be me or my body, yes? But without a thought, that just can't happen. Try it out, experiment with this. Just remain empty right now. Which is your body?

This. Exactly. In a way what he was also saying, that in pure perception...

So what I call pure perception is uncontaminated by mental narrative. So in pure perception, I cannot say 'my body,' 'your body,' 'this body.' You may still have a centrality of like a visual perspective, you see? It doesn't mean that this instrument becomes me or I'm attached to it.

It needs a lot of practice, I think.

Well, that's also a thought, isn't it? I'm not denying it, but sometimes if the mind is saying, 'It needs a lot of practice, so therefore I may not be able to do it,' that's how I feel. Yeah, so don't believe that thought at all. Just let it go. You're doing it. Are you attached to the body right now? Right now? Right now you're doing it. So the mind is oppressing you with this notion that you're very attached to the body.

Anyway, what is like—if all of us were only attached to the body, you know, our lives would be so simple, you see? I know that this is not popular to say in spirituality, but if you really thought you are the body so much, why do you come to satsang? Do you come to satsang for the body? If you really thought you were the body, you would never come to satsang. You would not have most of the problems. Most of our problems are relationships, bank account problems, problems at work. The body has nothing to do with that. The body just becomes an innocent instrument; the innocent instrument becomes the circumstantial evidence for the mind to use to say, 'Ah, this is you.' But the body itself, except pain and things which are natural, is a very innocent instrument, see? And we are not as attached as we may believe, you see?

So what happens when you try to catch the thief? The thief says, 'I am the policeman. The thief lives over there,' you see? So the thief is dressing up as the policeman and telling you that your problem is the body or your attachment to the body. That is the thief. And one tip is that don't bring what you hear in satsang to the mind to make an evaluation and say, 'What do you think about this?' and the mind says, 'Yes, yes, I agree' or 'No, no, I don't,' you see? Because we are not to go to that one; we have to go to this one.

When you were discussing the body, this one thing I don't know how to resolve is: see, I am aware of the sensations of my body; I'm not aware of the sensations of his body. So somewhere this body is a very gross reality, and so there is a relationship with my body and not with anybody else's body.

So how do we—sometimes what happens at times is that we are in a car and somebody falls off their bike, we also say 'ouch.' But maybe a better example is: when you dream, are you aware of the sensations in all the bodies? Because they are inside you. In the dream, we experience pain, we experience pleasure, and there seem to be other people who come and talk to us and we engage with some recognizable from this waking, some unrecognizable from this waking state. Even in that dream, we take ourselves to be inside that container, that dream character, yes? But the entire dream is where? So could we be having this conversation in a dream? It's possible. This moment could be in that dream, yes? Can we really say it is not that? No, there's no way for us to say it is not that. So if we can accept it after waking up, you have to accept...

There seem to be other people who come and talk to us and we engage with some recognize from this waking, some unrecognizable from this waking state. Even in that dream, we take ourselves to be inside that container, that dream character, yes. But the entire dream is within you. So could we be having this conversation in a dream? It's possible. This moment could be in that dream, yes. Can we really say it is not that? No, there's no way for us to say it is not that. So if we can accept it after waking up, you have to accept it even now because even if... okay, let's say I cannot conclude that all of this is within me. I cannot conclude that all of this is within me. Suppose that is the problem, okay. But you cannot conclude that it is not either, because this could very easily be a dream. So remain in that 'I don't know.' That will allow you to remain intuitive, okay? As long as we are not picking up a concept, you see, and we don't have to have all the answers. 'I don't know'—then you allow yourself to be in the heart. You allow yourself to be intuitive. Otherwise, the mind can always say, 'But do you know, if all of this was within you, then you would feel the sensations of their body also.' But it is not within you in that spatial sort of way. It's not within us the way we think it's within us.

How is the projection within us? So suppose you were to close your eyes and imagine a tree. Do you notice all the sensations of that tree? So on what screen is that imagination happening? That is in me. That is in you. In whose light is it happening? In that way, all of it is within you. You're hearing this man, you're seeing this man in front of you. Where is that experience of that seeing happening? Within you or outside you? So this space happens in the space that I am. It's not that there's a bigger space in which this space comes, no. It's not spatial. The 'within me' is not a spatial construct. The mind wants to make it an understanding in that way, you see. The 'within me' is that I am the screen and I am the light in which these appearances are playing out. The Yoga Vasistha is very good to read. Have you read the Yoga Vasistha? No? For these kind of questions, it's very good, which is the Swami Venkatesananda one, you see. We can give you the name, okay.

So I want to bring this up again. Um, you asked the question about deep sleep and, you know, am I there? I can't really say that I'm there. There is no... I'm not there in deep sleep.

You're not there, okay. How... who knows that? Who comes and tells you?

But when I... when something emerges out of it, there is this amness, but there is no amness in that. There's no amness in that. Who told you you're not there? It wasn't the 'I' of that that reported. Who told me? The absence of this amness is recognized by the rising of the amness. So the absence is recognized by the presence.

So what would happen if we were not aware of sleep? Then we would be just time travelers. It was 10:00 p.m. and suddenly now it's 6:00 a.m. because there was waking then and there's waking now. You'd be like, 'Oh, just normal in the human condition to do this time swap thing.' But it's not like that. Even if you go to sleep in satsang, you wake up and you say, 'Oh, I'm sorry, I went to sleep.' It is not that, 'Oh, it was just 7:40, how come it's 8:15?' So there's something, nothing, which recognizes the absence of being as well, which is you.

So maybe... and of course, the truth is I don't need to know this. I could just rest in what is known. But the intellectual side of me likes to clear these things up. And as soon as I'm here, as soon as the lights turn on, I can say 'I am.' You slept well. No, you were not there to conclude. So awareness... okay, awareness is there.

Awareness is there, yes.

I'm not there.

You are. As the amness, as the amness, I'm not there. Not to say... of course, okay, that's what makes it deep sleep. But I without the 'am' is still I, and it is aware. Awareness cannot be taken away from awareness even in the absence of 'am'.

So coming back to like the original question which I posed, this amness which... this kind of satsang after a long time... this amness, with it immediately space and time arises. It's with the birth, it's with this...

Wait, wait. So if it didn't happen immediately, but there was no time, how would you notice that it took time? You said immediately, 'As soon as I am, space-time comes,' you see. But before time coming, there was no time because without 'I am,' it's not there. So how do you know that it's immediate? It could have taken forever, but it seemed immediate because time only just came. In the same way, there is no end to these questions. So what happens is that only answers are available intuitively. So in which time does the sleep and waking happen? Because after waking, then do space and time come? You're right, yes. Trust your heart. Start trusting your heart and speaking from there. Then you speak absurd things like Ashtavakra and Ribhu, and you see, but somewhere they ring true in your heart.

You know, I could say the real big obstacle here... I would say this intellectual yearning for spirituality has really died out quite a bit, but this impulse to understand and to know, it's really just trying to satisfy a desire. It's such a strong... it plays so strong here and I really want to, inshallah, just put it at your feet.

I think I'm very happy that to notice it is most of the job. Otherwise, we can come for many years and we may feel that that is the only way to meet what is being said. So I'm glad you're noticing that. One tip is to ask yourself: what do you get when you receive an answer? Just a satisfied desire. It's just like a scratching of an itch. The itch was there, you scratch it, there's no real insight, just a concept that you got. So if you ask a question of 'Why did God create this world?' someone will say, 'To experience love.' One will say, 'To experience the unmanifest created this to experience, to taste itself in a manifest way.' One will say, 'Just entertainment.' But none of those answers are actually true or plausible. The only answer is intuitive. But many times we hanker for intellectual understanding, but it's nothing, it's just pebbles. You can make a storehouse of pebbles, but one atom of heart inside is worth much more than the museum of pebbles.

Real press conference types at this... um, witness... was reception like sakshi bhava? Is it more like a meditation kind of thing or is it a practical thing to do on a daily basis? Like witnessing, to remain as the witnessing, is it just to remain in pure perception, allow your thoughts to come and go? So you can stay like that the whole day?

Yes, yes. Well, the whole day maybe... but more and more, because the whole day means not one thought is believed in. Not one thought is believed in.

So I'm not there. You did mention that when you get up there is self-recognition. Is it like then at that point you try to... I mean, detach from the body and the mind kind of? Is that what it meant by self-recognition? Or can you get... I said like that, you mentioned it in the past.

I see all kind of things. Maybe there's the recognition of being, the recognition of Atma. 'I am'—this. Does the Consciousness include the mind? Yeah, so it's basically what you are. The mind, the heart, everything, everything that is perceivable is in Consciousness. Is in Consciousness. So when you get up, essentially your Consciousness wakes up, yeah. And when you're sleeping, it's dormant, but it's still there, yes. In the sense that sometimes the words Consciousness and awareness are confusing. In Indian spirituality, hardly anybody talks about awareness. Mostly Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj spoke about awareness and made a distinction with this Consciousness. Otherwise, in the past, it was called like a sleeping Consciousness and a waking Consciousness, which is another way of saying just pure awareness and then a waking I-amness or beingness. So the terms are not that important, but I like to clarify just because we use a certain way of using awareness and Consciousness. If we don't come on the same page about them, then I could be saying something and what is being understood could be something very different. So that's why I like to clarify, okay.