Wherever You Are, It's the Right Time to Turn to God - 21st February 2024

Because I don't want us to get stuck in the notion of 'I'm not the doer,' because the important question then to ask is: who is the 'you' which is not the doer? And if that one is not the doer, then why are you identifying with that one in the first place? Are you just then the experiencer? So, 'I'm not the doer, but I am the experiencer'—then it's very easy to get into the victim mode, you see. 'Why is God doing this to me? I have always been good,' you see. But if you're not the doer, then I don't know how you are good. But let's go past that and say this half-surrender of non-doership but experiencership is not going to help. And it is completely within our capacity to either live for the 'me' or live for God. What is that capacity called? I don't know. At a very broad level, you may call it a choice, but really, is it a choice or not? We can't say. It's a switch. There's a switch there somewhere. Maybe there's no name for it. Did I manage to answer your question somewhere in all of that?

Yes, yes, absolutely yes. So you are unaware that it is possible to live in a different way. We felt that all the fixing has to happen there, and over there we will be able to determine a better way of life, and then that will be the final solution to the life's issues and problems. But actually, it is a complete different way where everything seems to be operating itself. It changes from the egoic belief system to God's will, to His presence, to His life. So what is the mind worrying you with? If you live like that, then what is the fear?

No, no fear, but I just feel like sometimes if I start a day that I am acting... okay, that day I know the way I'm acting then points to me that this is really not from the... it hasn't got that joy, it hasn't got that energy, it hasn't got that flow. And then I think, how come? Why didn't I know before I started off? Then I pull back later and then I say, 'Be still, be still.'

So the post-mortem or the looking at how the day apparently went—although we can't really conclude because memory is so primitive, but let's presume for a moment that memory is showing us some true imagery—the post-mortem is helpful only for a moment or two where we notice that there's this disconnection and we return to the connection. But do not dwell on it too much because that is the one-two punch. It's like the razor's edge, you see. You can say, 'Why didn't I start my day like that? Because this happened, tomorrow I won't do like that.' And although there is something to that in the sense that if it brings us back to the light then that is fine, but just make sure it's not a mind trick. Who is doing the meta-analysis on the nature of the mind itself? Is it... so it's just to say, 'Oh, the mind is like that, the mind got you, the mind does this.'

I'll get used to hearing myself in this way, Father. I don't know how to share this, but it's inside me and I want to express this to you. Even previously, Father, there were many times where I had experiences, deep experiences, you know, like meeting God, really longing to be with Him, very sacred experiences. But even though I knew they were real, I never had the courage to believe it, Father, because I was so with the Maya, with what people said, everything, that I turned my face away from it, Father. And if not for you, I feel that I would never have the courage to take this, Father. I don't even know how to say thank you to you. It's not possible, Father, because even though I knew it was real, I never had the guts to go that path.

What did you take it to be then? Imagination?

No, it was real. I knew it was real, but the people around me, what they said... and I was too 'me' to really walk that path. You know, it really takes a lot of courage, Father. I now understand what you mean when you say 'take the courage,' because okay, you are in God's light and then your life is going for a toss, you're not interested in anything else.

It's not a requirement. I mean to say, there was a phase where I was not interested in anything else, and definitely if you don't have the courage, then you will heed to what people around you are saying. That's what happened. Suppose that Ram went through the phase of His dispassion there, but He did not meet Vasistha at that point. Vasistha didn't come, but it was just the people in the court and His father saying, 'You know, forget all this, you're a young prince, you have responsibilities, you must live your life, you must do all of this,' you see? Then Ram would not have, in this worldly play—God Himself playing this play—He would not have discovered the truth. He would not have come to His reality, which is not worthwhile for any life, no matter what that life ends up achieving in the worldly realm anyway after that.

So if you bought into society's notions and you became the next super-achiever in any field, and you were the best in your field or the best at everything in the whole world, even that would not be worth it compared to what you are finding now. Even that would not be worth it. So we must be grateful to the Satguru presence within that He guided us in this way and brought us to this truth which is beyond anything that the world can offer, you see. And we must not feel that society or our families or whatever mean bad; they don't mean bad for us, they mean well, but they are conforming to what they have understood life to be. So they will recommend what they think is the best course of action, see? And that is where courage is needed because usually, in thousands and thousands of people, you would be the only one standing alone saying, 'God is a reality that I am discovering, He is here.'

And they would say, 'No, no, people have to go spend their lives in caves for many lifetimes, only then can you get the Darshan of God. Who are you to say that God is here?' Or the more tricky one actually could be the one that says, 'Yes, yes, God is your Atma, He is there for everyone, but you have to take care of the world also, you have to do your responsibilities also. There's enough time for God when you're retired and you've done everything.' And by then it's too late because our conditioning becomes so deeply settled, becomes so deeply engraved, that it seems very difficult to change for most of humanity. So how many of the old people that we know have really turned to God fully in their heart after they retire? Very few, because the conditioning now is so deep, you see.

If you lived your whole life taking money, material things, relationships, all that to be paramount, then suddenly you retire when you're sixty-five or something like that and people say, 'No, no, actually now is time for your real project,' how will you just switch like that? I'm not saying that if you're sixty-five it's too late; I'm just saying that wherever you are is the right time to turn to God. And this misunderstanding that we must juggle, we must try and balance—because we misunderstanding, in continuation of the earlier question, we don't even understand where action comes from, who is doing the things. Most have reported that the highest insight, the biggest inventions, the biggest achievements have come in the moments where they were empty, you see. And some have openly admitted that it was from God or God's grace. So if all comes from Him, then how could it hurt to be with Him right from the beginning?

I only feel very grateful, Father. Without the Guru, I think there's nothing possible.

Welcome. The thing is that there is nothing that gives me more joy than to make this possibility of living in His presence, in His light, alive for all of you. That is clearly what I'm pregnant with and what I want to deliver. There's nothing else really which has any sort of meaning in this life here, although it still plays out and there's no aversion to that. It's like... there's this bacteria—sorry, that's just a metaphor—so bacteria, you know, I don't know if you heard of it, that infects these insects and then they become like zombie insects where the bacteria actually... so these insects start behaving like the bacteria, you know? They stop behaving like how they used to earlier. So when one gets deeply infected with this love for God, then all that gives them joy, all that gives them pleasure, is to share that infection. So when I come for satsang, when I do...

There's this bacteria—sorry, that just met [Laughter]—so bacteria, you know, I don't know if you've heard of it, that infects these insects and then they become like zombie insects where the bacteria actually... so these insects start behaving like the bacteria, you know? They stop behaving like how they used to earlier. So when one gets deeply infected with this love for God, then all that gives them joy, all that gives them pleasure, is to share that infection. So when I come for satsang, when I do my yoga, when I finish meditation, I feel a lot of what you're saying and it's strong and it's powerful. But when life flips over, when we're going through really difficult patches, when you know you're deeply hurt by the actions of others, in those difficult times, what are some of the ways that we... what's a good space to go to? What's a good way to think about it or feel about it? How do we manage to retain that feeling that we have even when things are going exactly the wrong—not the wrong way, but they are painful or hurtful times?

So if I was to put it simply, can we say that your question is that when I'm in satsang, when I'm doing my spiritual practices, then what is being said in satsang is fairly apparent, it's fairly clear; but when life hits you, when the rubber hits the road, when problems happen, relationships, attachments, all of these things, then we seem to lose that center, we seem to lose that light? And what are some of the tools that can keep us in that light? Yes. So, a lot of the tools have been shared, so let me quickly go over them and whatever resonates with you the most, you can tell me, 'Okay, I want to know more about this,' and we can deep dive into that.

So really, if you look at the central issue in all of this, at the core of all of this trouble is a misunderstanding. It's just a big misunderstanding. What is that misunderstanding? The misunderstanding is that we take ourselves to be a bundle of flesh, the body-mind, you see? Whereas in actuality, we are that which is aware of all of this realm of perceptions. You see, that is at the root of this trouble. So if you did not take yourself to be the body-mind, tell me, what would trouble you? Okay, so for a moment, because usually it's very difficult to just snap out of the identification as the body-mind into nothing, let's provisionally give you a replacement.

Suppose that you were the space in this room. You were not that body that is sitting in that space. Now, what could trouble you? As absurd as it may sound, you suppose that you are just the space in this room. Does the space care about what comes into the room, what people are doing, even what energies they may seem to be? Does the space care about any of that? If somebody comes and shouts, 'You, you, you!' like that, does the space care about it? Huh? But does the space care about what kind of energy there is and how much energy there is, or is it just a quiet presence independent of what may come and go?

Should I give you a better one? What if you were just pure witnessing? You were not the body-mind, but you were just the witnessing of all of this, which is watching all of this. You are untouched by any of this. Then what could trouble you?

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, okay.

So let's change the metaphor again. So suppose that you woke up in the morning, you and your friend, and somebody gifted you the brand new invention—Apple Vision Pro 55th Edition. So you put it on and it's so compelling that you forget that you ever put it on. Then that seems like reality, that seems like real life, you see? Where all of that is a computer game. Now, you are just watching this computer game and you remember that you are just watching this computer game. Then what could trouble you? Don't worry, just let's walk together. You don't have to extrapolate what you have to do from there. I'm just saying that if this was the case, then could you be really troubled? In actuality, only when you forgot that you put the headset on, you see? When you thought that you are actually the character who's appearing in the game, then you may get trouble. You may feel like somebody's attacking you and you have to defend yourself and all of those things. But if you remembered that it's just a game I'm playing, then it would just be fun, isn't it?

No, I've not told you yet what you have to do, so don't worry about rushing to the answer. Just on this part, can we concur? Yes? Okay. So now suppose that through some way you realized—and it'll sound very strange what I'm about to say—you realize that this world appearance is just like that. Is it? Then would your worries, problems, all of these things be dropped away? Maybe. Because why? Because if it was clear to you that all of this is a game, is a Leela, Maya, whatever you call it, if it was clear to you—and I know it may not be clear to you yet—but suppose it was.

Then the path of inquiry, the method of inquiry, the method of introspection, is to bring us to the true recognition of who we are. And when we recognize who we are, we notice that all of this realm of appearances, all these universes, they come and go, but the actuality of me, the reality of me, remains untouched, unborn, unchanging through all of this. So that is the first tool. What is that? The tool is that of inquiry.

So how do we do self-inquiry? We start with a simple question, simple but sincere. We say, 'Who am I? Who am I?' And then you just... we're not like anxiously waiting, you just ask sincerely. And now the answer has to arise. So we ask ourselves truly, 'Who am I?' And then a thought may come with an answer that it is proposing. We are not to engage with that thought. We are not to believe that thought. We only have to check: who is witnessing this thought? So who witnesses the thought? Let's make it an active inquiry if you can. Can we do this together? So who are you? You think you see yourself in all the different roles. Who witnesses this thought that came?

The part of me that's... part of me that's none of those roles, actually.

Part of you which is none of those roles, or maybe all of them, I don't know which way it is. Yes. Who witnessed this thought? Who witnessed this thought? Does it have a color, a shape? So this that is aware of these perceptions, including the perception of thought, can that be perceived?

Can't perceive it.

But who is that who is aware? Is it you or no?

Feels like something higher than... higher or behind me or something like...

Yes, yes. So this sensation, perception, insight even—who is aware of it? So we digress for one moment. I just want to remind you that that which is auspicious has never hurt anyone. So whatever the energetic movement may be, whatever may be experienced, that which is auspicious, that which is true, has never hurt anyone. And that which is inauspicious, that which is untrue, has never existed. So don't have to worry about it at all and treat this as an opportunity to let go of all concern. Let whatever has to happen, happen. Ready? Ready to think? Okay.

So let's return to the inquiry. So we're checking on the most important question: who am I? So let's start again. So who are you? Yeah, yeah. So that answer came in the form of a thought, or how did it come? So really the advice is not to engage with that thought or take it to be true, but just check right now: what is witnessing this thought? You are witnessing it now. Like, you are witnessing it; you're not receiving the content of the thought from somebody sitting next to you. You yourself are witnessing it. This 'you' that is witnessing it, how are you perceiving that?

Yeah, yeah.

But what witnesses all of this? Without speculating, just checking right now. It must be here now. You are here now. So what witnesses all of this? So this 'I' which is not sure, can you find it? Can you locate it? The one that is not sure, where is it?

Scenes stitched together are not sure. The scenes that are stitched together are not sure about who it is.

So if this inquiry resonates with you, where you say that how is it that we spend our entire lives and really we can't even answer the most fundamental question, which is who we are? Because actually what has happened is that who we really are has been overlaid with ideas about who we are. So that is called the identity. So we built up these conditions, which are also called vasanas, which are basically trying to tell us who we are. 'I'm a man, I live in Bangalore, this is my family, this is my satsang.' All of these notions make up the identity called Ananta. But who's at the center of the identity? That we don't know.

So isn't it absurd that most of us will go through our entire life and we will never meet the one that is at the center of all of this? Because the narratives give us a name and form, you see? My name is Ananta, my form is this. So then that serves as a replacement for true insight about who we are. So when we say that this is the Atma Gyan Kendra, that really means that this is the place where we can safely come and check on the nature of what we truly are. Is it? Because in the world, there are rarely these safe spaces available. If you go to the world and tell them, 'I'm really exploring who I am,' you see, that is often misunderstood, you see, as a sort of quest to find out what are my true beliefs and true intentions. But what is it? What is it at the core of all of this? Who are we?

So what is the way to inquire? Just like this. It's simple like that. Ask yourself who you are. When the mind proposes an answer, check who is witnessing this thought. And if the mind says 'I am,' then just ask yourself, 'Who is this I?' So what happens in the process is that we remain empty of identification because the thoughts that are coming, you're not grasping at them, you're not buying into them; you are, in fact, asking what witnesses these thoughts. So only in this emptiness... so all of spirituality is for us to come to this: head empty, heart full. All of it is for that.

So inquiry is the first tool that can be offered to come to that place of emptiness. And as we learn to remain empty in the head, then true insight starts to flower in our heart. So the answer doesn't have to come conceptually to you, but it will be a recognition. And it is that recognition, that insight, which is called self-realization. So it is not objective in nature. You don't... even if some spiritual experiences happen, you see, if chakras are moving, if other fireworks are happening, you see, then just keep checking: who witnesses that? What witnesses that? If nothing is happening, if just the same old mundane mind is saying, 'I have work to do, I have things to work on,' then check: who witnesses that? Is it? Now the idea is to truly check and not rely on any perception or any thought.

A cautionary tale is this: that one child who was with me for a long time, she came to me one day and said, 'Father, help me because the inquiry is not working for me anymore.' So I said, 'It is impossible for the inquiry not to work, but I want to know what you mean by not working for me anymore.' So she said that earlier, when I would just ask 'Who am I?', I would be filled with peace, joy, all my troubles would go away, it would be so nice and I could be like that. Now I ask myself 'Who am I? Who am I?' and nothing is happening. No peace, no joy. So it stopped working. So I said the inquiry is meant for you to check on who you are, not to get you spiritual benefits. You see, those may be byproducts that come, but if our attachment becomes on that spiritual sightseeing or spiritual experience gathering, then the intent of the inquiry becomes convoluted and the mind itself will use it as a method of grasping. In the inquiry, true inquiry means whatever may come, may come. You see, it is allowed to come and allowed to go. The question remains: who am I? So the mind will try to answer initially, say, 'You are this, you are that, you're this, you're that,' but what you're meeting intuitively will not match any of the mind's narratives. That's why the mind's answers will not satisfy you. So as you keep... as you stay with the question, 'Who is witnessing this thought?', then all of this will start to drop away and you'll find yourself more anchored.

The inquiry, true inquiry, means whatever may come may come. See, it is allowed to come and allowed to go. The question remains: Who am I? So the mind will try to answer initially, say you are this, you are that, you're this, you're that. But what you're meeting intuitively will not match any of the mind narratives. That's why the mind's answers will not satisfy you. So as you keep, as you stay with the question 'Who is witnessing this thought?' then all of this will start to drop away and you'll find yourself more and more in silence. And in that silence, which is the head-empty part, that is where true insight can flower.

So that is the first tool that is the core of what is called Gyan yoga. So Gyan is a confusing word because Gyan, for many people, they may think that here I will come to Gyan yoga and I will learn a lot. See, because Gyan typically is like, you know, that kind of like giving us a lot of information, a lot of so-called knowledge. But Gyan yoga is not that. Gyan yoga is to meet the true source of knowledge, which is our Satguru presence within, our intuitive presence within, the holy guide, the Holy Spirit within. So in the process of asking this very simple question 'Who am I?' God's presence, which is present in the form of the Satguru within, reveals himself to you. It's a very good deal. I would take it. Take all you have to do is sincerely ask yourself who you are, and in turn, the greatest guide in this universe is found within your own heart in the form of the Atma within. And in the light of the Atma within, you discover the absolute reality, which is purely Nirguna, attributeless awareness.

So this is an ancient path which is mentioned in many Upanishads, but really we have to credit Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, whose photo is there—I don't know if you noticed. We have to credit him with bringing this to light in the modern world and making it accessible and making it approachable for us without having to become full Upanishadic. We can approach the simple method of self-inquiry thanks to his pointings, and we have to be really grateful for that. So that is the crux of self-inquiry. So, you happy with this or you want to know what are the other options? You're going to try this? Okay, that's very good, very good, very good. Because sometimes what may happen is—but I can see you're resonating with it somewhere—sometimes what may happen is that I'm saying all this and I can just get a sense that it's not clicking, you know, it's not matching. Thankfully, by God's grace, the words that He provides here are usually not wasted in that way, and for that I'm very grateful. But sometimes it does happen that the inquiry doesn't register with us, it doesn't resonate, and that's why we have other forms like Bhakti yoga, like Karma Yoga. But I'm happy this, because this is very direct. This is very, very direct, and it's not mutually exclusive to any other path of self-realization, but it's a very good fertile ground for the rest of it to flower as well. So I'm happy to hear you want to try it.

With little children, even there is a, like a parent would say, can say, maybe should say that, 'What does your inner voice say?' And in school also there's this conscience, right? In the—when we—'What does your conscience tell you?' And to know what is right. And for that child to start looking for the answers within, and this is encouraged. And in some children then this stays. Then I just was curious, Father, that what is that? That inner voice is—is the same? The same? It is the—as is the guidance from the Atma itself?

You see, because how is it that—we were talking about this—that how is it that children all universally know that it is wrong to lie, even if the parents haven't really told them so much about it? Or how do they know that violence or not being kind is not good, and kindness and compassion is good? So that universal, momentarily let's call it morality, must come from a universal presence, isn't it? Otherwise, how does it spread? So that universal presence is God's presence. Well, it's a bit tricky because mostly what can happen, depends on the age of the child also, but many times what can happen is that after a particular age, we may go to the moralistic aspect of our mind to get those answers and say, 'Okay, no, no, I know it's duty.' So that's why really to guide them to the heart is a more intricate process for which even most parents are not equipped. They're not equipped to do it for themselves either, so it'll be very difficult for them to guide their children. So yeah, it becomes tricky because the mind quickly starts building the spiritual and moralistic compartment as well. And the thing about the guidance from the heart is that it doesn't conform to templates because it is the only light which is all-knowing. Then it doesn't have to rely on 'we must always be like this, we must always be like that.' It's not a moral science sort of class. It is very moment to moment. It's very alive.

In the video when you were in Portugal with Mooji Baba, and that moment when you were on the hot seat and that expression on your face, it was like you got a sudden insight. To me it looked like, 'I've been living a lie all this time' or—I don't want to put what exactly went through your mind at that—in that.

That's a weight of—it's probably the toughest question all of you ask me, which is 'What happened to you on the hot seat?' And I know every time I give a different answer. So what happened on the hot seat for—so we are to examine that, and we'll only do this rarely. We have to locate it in two different tracks. There was something happening to this body, but there was something happening inwardly. So what was happening to the body was, I was not concerned with that at all, and mostly it is in looking at the video later that I saw what was happening to it. So I realized there was laughter, there was crying, both of them, those things happening together, and a sort of release that happened. So that was happening outwardly. But inwardly there was a sheer stillness. There was a sheer open and empty. And maybe that's why I keep talking about being open and empty because it was—forget about the construct of the 'me' not being there, even the possibility of such a limitation was completely absent. It was just so empty. And I recognized my true nature as awareness itself, the untouched reality. And I saw that this world with all of this play of light and sound, it really looked like a play of light and sound. It didn't seem like any tangibility was there. But it was seen that what I was could not be touched, could not be hurt, could not be affected, and really is not in this world at all in the first place. So I saw that I'm not an object in this world and I realized my true nature as awareness itself.

Before that, a few years before that, by God's grace, His presence, His beingness revealed itself to me. Some of you heard that story that I was throwing a tantrum with God saying, 'What is this being? I can't find the being. Can you show me the being?' sitting in an auto-rickshaw going from here to my office in Diamond District. And then in a moment, it just—the presence became so apparent. And as the presence became so apparent, then the question was, 'This has always been here. How could I be looking for this?' You see? 'Am I deluding myself? Am I fooling myself? What's happening?' I couldn't understand. But even in that revelation, I didn't come to rely on the being. I didn't learn to rely on God's presence. Only after recognizing the absolute reality of what I am did even that reliance on God's presence deepen.

And I didn't—even after that, there was a sheer emptiness for many days. I was just walking around. There were hardly any thoughts. Very, very simple thoughts, like if the phone would ring, a thought would come saying, 'Maybe you should answer that,' you know? Then I say hello, and there was a sheer—there, like there was a vague recollection that this one used to be a client of mine, a customer, and I'm just empty of all of that. I'm just saying hello and he's saying something, something, something, I'm saying yes, yes, yes. It was just moving by itself, you know? There was no—like she was saying that that made-up doership was absent. Then after a few days, it just sort of settled and I became very quiet. I loved to spend time in my room alone. But there was some thought activity, there was some belief also going to thought, but very little. And as many have reported, the families, all of them start to wonder whether this one is depressed or very sad or did something happen, you see? So my family used to be like, 'What's wrong with you? Why aren't you like how you were?' So I said, 'But I'm really happy. Can't you see? Is my face showing something different? Because I've never been this happy in my life.'

So then it—then like that, and the insights kept deepening more and more and more. But inherently lazy and introverted that I was, I never had this idea of sharing Satsang or sharing this with anyone. That happened many years later when Guruji visited. He said at that point of time, we were organizing the Sanghas all over the world where we would just gather and watch the DVDs of Guruji. At that time, there was those DVDs. So we would have the DVD Satsang. And there was a group of people sitting like this with Guruji saying, 'Yes, yes, we will come.' So I started that after a month or so of that meeting, and nobody from that initial group was responding saying, 'I'm going to come.' So then what happened is that I said, 'Now I want to share this light with everyone. So what can I do?' So I went to Facebook, and in those days on Facebook—I know this was not your question, but this collaborating—so on Facebook you could search for people living in Bangalore who like the page Mooji, right? It was called Graph Search and it was there only for a few months, I think. So I searched for that, and you know who showed up? These kids, this Jayaram, Bhakti. So I wrote to either just one of them, Ram or something, and I remember that a strong resistance came just after the note saying that we are organizing this and I saw that you like Guruji and would you like to come. A strong resistance came. It said, 'Oh, now you're going to become a spammer, you know? You're going to just spam people. Maybe they're not interested.' The mind really attacked, and I'd not seen that ferocity for many months because I was mostly quiet for all that time. And I noticed that what's happening, and this was maybe many months, I don't know how many months it passed.

So anyway, I send that and then these kids responded very sweetly and said, 'Can we come? Can we come?' So we started Satsang in that way where we would just watch the DVD, and some of my neighbors and some of these ones, and Dr. Kiran from that initial bunch, she started coming and used to watch. And then, then I don't know, they just started asking me things and some answers started coming. So just here we are, basically.

What year was this?

2012. 2009. 2011 maybe. 11, 12, yeah.

But why I don't want to share the story too much, and I don't often do it, is because I don't want it to be any sort of benchmark. Your spiritual experiences might have more fireworks or less fireworks; it doesn't matter. So the way you must look at it is that, okay, that was meant for him to happen, so that story is done. Consciousness doesn't want to have too much redundancy, you see? So it's played that story in the expression of Ananta. In my expression, it will be different, so it doesn't need to play out in that way. It's also important to not dwell on past spiritual experiences because then we get into that mode of just saying, 'You know, when I was on the hot seat, I saw,' you see? As if what is fresh and alive now is not worth talking about. So I would rather trust this, the true fresh insight, the true guide, the fresh guidance from the Atma within, much more than rely on something my memory is trying to tell me about. So that's why I rarely refer back to anything like that, because freshly, freshly is.

So, it's also important to not dwell on past spiritual experiences because then we get into that mode of just saying, "You know, when I was on the hot seat, I saw..." you see, as if what is fresh and alive now is not worth talking about. So, I would rather trust this, the true fresh insight, the true guide, the fresh guidance from the Atma within, much more than rely on something my memory is trying to tell me about. That's why I rarely refer back to anything like that, because freshly, freshly is known in God's light. There's nothing missing right now. And honestly, if you were to ask me that, because there is a constant deepening and a constant work in progress—continuing work in progress—I would rather all of you were to meet this one who is sharing here than to meet that one who was on the hot seat and just got off from that, you see? Because that was very immature and naive still somewhere, although the experience was so strong and beautiful. But the nuances, the trickery of the mind, the subtleties of heart knowledge, the tricks the mind can play—this one speaking to you in front of you is more aware of those things. And hopefully, the one speaking a few years later will be even deeper in his exploration of God's love and life.

So, one of the biggest mistakes that happen in India is this notion of that one-time self-realization thing. So, we can say an awakening experience may happen one time, but that is not the end of insight; it is not the end of deepening. So, you must not fall into that trap of needing an experience, a spiritual experience, an awakening experience. From mostly what I've seen in the world, those who had an awakening experience then go on to become terrible people. I'm generalizing, because they become proud, they become arrogant—spiritual ego, all of that. That's why I'm constantly cautioning all of us to not fall into any spiritual ego. And there's a lot of it here; there's a lot of it here. So, that's a constant work in progress to empty myself of that pride. So, as stupid and foolish and arrogant and proud as I may be, I feel like I can say with integrity that I really fall at His feet constantly and beg for His mercy and light and love. So, I hope, I hope these words are true. Do I do it as much as I should? Of course not. As much as I should would be all the time, to live in the temple of my heart all the time.

So, the questions that I ask all of you are also relevant for me. If Krishna is sitting with you, then why do you turn somewhere else? Don't feel that I'm only asking you from a pedestal, saying, "I am doing it perfectly, you must follow." They apply this as much here as well. So, the sharing only is because maybe half a step further has been worked for some because of some Grace here—half a step, maybe an inch.

Because you're sharing about the journey, you know, maybe that's why I was just wondering, Father, does... because of what you just said, that does... like, are you always supposed to feel like a beginner in this?

Because I don't know what you're supposed to... if I do is a benchmark of "supposed to," then maybe. Can I go to anyone and say, as a claim, that I have found the extent of God? I have found the depth of God, of His love, of His life, of the truth? I can't. I feel like I'm still scratching the surface. There's so much awe every time He's even remembered. I don't see how this one, at least, can be anything but a beginner, like a beginner of a beginner. I feel like if everyone was to look at it truly, they will see it like this. Well, I don't know, I can't really speak for everyone. So, the Guru play—the outer Guru play of sitting on a chair, pedestal, everyone listening, calling me Father, Guruji, whatever—that must never become what we truly believe about ourselves. Because in front of God, I'm just a naked child who's asking for His love. What is this presence in my heart? Can I describe the magnificence of it? Have I met the ends of it? Even the words to describe Himself come from Him only. This one is too foolish to even put three words together describing Him. And that is why spiritual pride is the strangest thing: to take credit for that which is all God's. Spirit is God's. So, the Guru's name and form, whatever remains of the "me" to take credit for being something special or knowing some spiritual truth, it's just nonsense, because all comes from God Himself. Ask me more.

In what context? No, because I don't feel like I've even taken that step that I'll switch it off, just...

Okay, so let's say you don't have to take yourself to be a beginner, don't have to take yourself to be advanced, don't take yourself to be any of that. Tell me with integrity, what is it that you know? Like, an advanced one would be advanced because of what? No? So, suppose that the spectrum is valid: beginner, middling, advanced, master, like that. Then how would you progress on that ladder? You're proud to be a beginner?

No, it's okay. If it has feedback, they should hear the question. They should also hear the question. I don't feel like it's the other way, like, you know, self-sabotaging. I see that it's more like a humility which is mental. You know, that it's the... you know, what is the main message of that? It's again pride only, Father. It's just again that "as I know that I don't know," or you know, just... or just sometimes it's also...

How does it exhibit itself? How do you know that you have this?

It's an analysis of all the times that these kind of things are believed, so I'm making a report of that. It's not right in the moment. Again, if I check, it's... if I cannot... I used... like, I feel very insecure about the fact that after all of these years also, that if you ask me that...

So, does it cause pressure when I say this child was the first to come?

Only if you ask me to speak, not otherwise. It's fine. If you ask me to speak, then yeah, because I feel like I cannot, as you say, just wave to the crowd. No, there's such un-royalty.

No, it's not at all. I know, I know that's not missing it. But it's just... is there like a thing that, "Oh, but others seem to be doing well, I'm still starting"?

It's an own report of my... like, it's like an analysis of my own progress, like a report that I submit to myself, you know, just because...

And you make that report to yourself? How long does it take, that report? And that's what we were talking about earlier, that sometimes it's actually good to notice, "I get stuck in these things." Notice, but then don't dwell on it. Just return. Use that as the fuel to return to God's life. Otherwise, if the reporting only happens in the mind, it's godless.

That I don't feel. I used to feel very guilty with things. I don't feel so guilty so much because the prayer and all of that has saved that side, you know? But it's not guilty also, but there is a... you know, I know sometimes when I know what...

I'll give you a tip which I gave some of the others also. I feel like what may be happening with you is that you dive into the heart, but you convey through the lens of the intellect. Yeah? So, what you have to do in all engagements, all interaction, is that allow them to unfold from there itself. So, it's very subtle. It is very compelling for us to say, "Okay, but I found this," and then the intellect says, "Therefore this, that, and this is how it works," all of that. Then the fragrance of the heart goes missing. So, just remain in that. And the trick is to not be rushed. Just even if you're taking time in your engagements with people, even if everyone thinks you're foolish, don't get rushed. Only allow yourself to unfold from there. And when you find that you got tempted by the mind, just return. And in that way, it becomes... it is a constant work in progress. Can I say that I'm constantly like that? No, you see? That's why the instruction is as much for this one as for you. Huh? All reports is irrelevant. Where is this from? Yes, the reporter itself will say, "Yeah," because it feels like it's out of moves, so it makes a new move which is like from a higher perspective according to it.

Yes. Yeah, so don't conclude anything in the intellect. Can... when I'm making a report, like how you said, there's a settling and there's a heart, you know? Like, I know when I'm in heart. But when I have to speak with integrity from my heart, there's fear that comes out, right? Yeah, and it's very paralyzing fear. Sorry.

Okay, slow down. Good. Yes, it is natural as the switchover is happening for the fear to come. You see, it's very natural for the fear to come. But whether it is that much, maybe just... it's trying to paralyze you in that narrative that it is that much. Because many times it is like the Wizard of Oz; the story about it was much bigger than the actuality. So, with fear also, when we take the narrative that "my fear is so much," then it seems like much more. While I'm at it, I want to ask you one more question.

That in prayer, Father, do all these desires that come and then you go with that belief... no... so will they... do they keep getting... you'll keep getting mad in my heart? No, like I'll keep... so in prayer, the mind is giving you all the desires and then... like, I'm seeing some of it not holding me, but some get... like, of course, I mean on a daily basis, yeah. And but I somehow, I don't know, it's an insight, I don't know, but with prayer I feel like it's just getting more and more that...

Yeah, so at the root of it is the temptation to know, isn't it? Yes. So, when we live in His presence, then what do we need to know? So, as you get used to remaining in His presence, remaining in your prayer, remaining in your chanting, remaining in your inquiry, then as He's with you, the mind's offers will seem tamer and tamer. And although that will happen that way, that they will seem tamer and tamer, know that it'll always have some like surprise attacks, like it's saving up ammunition. Suddenly you feel like the minute you start to feel like, "Oh, I'm getting good at remaining empty like this," then something, something, something, and it seems like it's a coordinated attack. Like something starts happening in the world, then something moves over there, something moves over there, then within ten minutes it could be like, "What empty? What God?" So, we must, in those times, we ourselves feel like "I have to solve it as a me," you see? But we must remember that that never works. So, return to the heart.

I'm seeing that part of the need to know is so strong, which I like... need to know anything, just second it.

No, that you will not know here. That's the only thing we need to know.

Can... why? Because I feel like I want to be... know... want to... yeah, I say it, I want to get this. Like, I want to fully see it now, you know? And that I should be able to just give myself fully, you know.

So, there it's a double-edged sword in the sense that if it provides you the momentum to stay more in God's life—"I've been in Satsang for twelve years, longer than anyone else in this room, I have to follow my Master fully and be in God's life"—then that's fine. But if it's... the other edge of the sword is that, "Oh, I cannot ask him that question because what will people think? I've been here twelve years, you know, they'll think he doesn't even know that much." So, it's still that knowledge thing in the benchmarking thing. So, the first one is welcome: dive in, dive in. The second one is just your ego proposing. Try... because of time, it doesn't mean anything. That's why the beginner conversation is important. If you've been with me the longest, you must feel most like the beginner. Only the ones who are in the honeymoon period can feel spiritual pride and "I've been here only three months."

And Father, is it natural to feel fear when there's a switchover from head to heart?

Yes. Is it natural? Yes, yes. It's possibly the most commonly reported thing, the wobbliness that comes initially because it's just... you were walking on two feet and now you're flying. Yes. So, it's... and the transformation, the change is much more than that. Yes, the change is completely transformational. So, the mind, it is bound to fear this very much. Fear is from the mind. Fear is at least exaggerated by the mind, because I had this impression that if you deepen more in the heart...

A switch over from head to heart, yes. Is it natural? Yes, yes. It's possibly the most commonly reported thing, the wobbliness that comes initially because it's just you were walking on two feet and now you're flying. Yes, so it's—and the transformation, the change is much more than that. Yes, the change is completely transformational.

So the mind, it is bound to fear this very much. Fear is from the mind. Fear is at least exaggerated by the mind.

Because I had this impression that if you deepen more in the heart, the fear might also like reduce.

But as you keep deepening, it will reduce. But as you—so suppose you used to handle all your work email with your mind and now you resolve to just allow it to unfold from the heart. Is it so? It's like a step you've taken. So when that step is taken, the mind will obviously try to get in the way and say, 'But what if you mess it up? You'll get fired.' Natural, right? But as you learn to flow from the heart, then there's also a development of faith, a development of trust that I can live like this, that my fears were unfounded. Yes, it's absolutely a new way of living altogether.

Father, really. So it's not adding a spiritual box to your life.

Exactly. It is a complete override of the operating system.

Absolutely. I can see now when you say that it's a change of the operating system altogether, so I can see it. Yes, thank you very much. I can't have this the other day—no, okay. It's on the other day when you were saying, Father, that Atma is Atma Gyan. So that related to that knowledge what you were saying, you know, that... so I had this impression that once I'll be able to tick mark everything I know firsthand, whatever you're sharing, I thought that was the knowledge. But just the presence itself is the knowledge.

That is the knowledge. Yes, yes and no, in the sense that we cannot localize it like that. You can't say, 'Ah, presence, I've got all the knowledge.' Not like that. There's no distinction between the Atma and the Atma Gyan in the sense it's not two distinct things. Because we are used to mechanical and time-consuming processes, empirical processes, we think it's going to be like a sequence of events. We feel like, 'Okay, I thought about this, then I understood that, then I understood this.' But Atma Gyan we can't fathom, which doesn't take time, which doesn't take a process. So suppose that in an instant you had all the understanding that has ever been there about everything, truly. So that is Atma in Atma. That is a part of it, you see. But what reveals itself as words, what comes to the surface, all that we cannot predict. All that is His grace, you see. So that's why it's instant and a deepening.

But this word stuff, you said many times even that is avidya. Everything said in satsang is also... so that's not the focus.

So the best use of the words is just to point you like that, vis-à-vis to the... and in that way, the project becomes very simple. We don't have to learn much, we don't have to understand much. We just have to live in His light. In fact, it is the opposite where the mind, like she was saying, the mind will come with offers of understanding, of being right, of knowing, but we have to rely on the true source of knowledge, which is Atma. So that metaphor is very helpful for all of this: if Ram, Krishna, Jesus, He was sitting here, then what would you like to know? He's already here. And then in that contentment, in that openness, in that peace, then your words will be naturally scriptural. You won't have to plan them like that. They just become fragrant, full of love and full of such deep insight. That's why the example was like Maharaj, of illiterate ones who came to this and then their words were just like the Upanishads or something. It can seem like a huge change because we are used to a different way. We were told, 'You better learn all of this so you can graduate to the next class. You better learn all of this, then you will get a degree, then you will do well in life.' So we come to satsang almost in that mode of a classroom. And there are many satsangs in the world which operate in that mode of classroom. So with this satsang, this kind of satsang is different, which is leading you to the source of all knowledge. All the words spoken here are just to get you to that point, that's all. Because what higher can I offer you? Just pointing to God's presence constantly must be the highest. There you go. Oh yes, yes, yes, I forgot. Yeah, hello. The idea of angels, right? What are angels? Angels are just these messengers who were spreading His knowledge in a way that we can't yet fathom. We can just call them angels. So I'll take an example. So sometimes what would happen as I started sharing satsang, I was very stupid, so I would just openly say everything. So these kids will remember. One day I entered satsang and I just felt like... usually it's a different one that is speaking through this mouth. It's the same one, the heart, but it had a different flavor, it had a different manner, it had a different expression. So I was saying that today it feels like that one has come to satsang and is sharing. So in the play of this, there can be so many things. Everything that we can fathom can actually exist. So angels are just a way to understand that messaging mechanism of His light being spread in that way. So I could easily say that if I knew any angel's name, then I could easily say that this particular angel is sharing with me inside and I'm just speaking his words to you. But really, not so important to worry about that. What is... is there a context to that?

Yeah, just thinking one minute. Take your time. So I was thinking about this word you used earlier today, vasana, right? And how that forms a part of our understanding of how tendencies operate, right? And I was thinking, the idea of an angel, is it related to like how tendencies operate within us? That is where this question came from.

Is it? I don't see it that way, but I'm happy to listen more and understand from your perspective. So you're saying that if there are some positive conditions, if there's some positive vasanas that we have picked up along the way, then as we are into that construct of the mind, then it's like an angel is talking to us? Is that how you mean it?

I don't know. I mean, I'm just trying to understand it. It seemed to be a related idea and so just...

No, I would take these things—it sounds absurd to most of you—but whatever needs a lot of faith from us, we must take them quite literally. Not in the sense of turning it into something that is palatable and understandable for us, you see. So if the scripture tells us that there are angels and they can appear and they can guide, then we must take that very literally, you see. So when it is said that Krishna picked up Govardhan with this one thing, or Hanuman jumped across the ocean and reached Lanka, we must find that within us which can have faith in that kind of power, instead of saying, 'Okay, now in those days they must have done this, he must have found some route to Lanka and then later because of devotion it was written like that.' You see, it is just presuming that the earlier generations were just stupid or just... so you must not fall into those traps. I know it's very difficult what I'm saying, and being someone who was an atheist and full of science in my head growing up, it can sound very absurd what I'm saying. But because it is written in the Bible that angels are real and then they can communicate with us, you must treat that as a literal fact.

I agree, I agree. Just trying to like correlate with other ideas that are similar and see whether they are the same thing. Are they? That's the question.

With vasanas? I have not been... maybe I'll contemplate this a bit more. Sounds very interesting, not heard it like that. Okay, thank you.

I want to ask, it's a very silly thing, but whenever I have to make a report, okay, why is it that there's always like always a more affinity towards making... why is it like I have more affinity towards making like an unwell and like a bad report? And even if it's not like that, and you've seen this, no? Like yeah, always undervaluing or devaluing your insight and everything, like just put myself down. Yeah, and it just feels very like a trap. Yes, and it's not like that, but I will report it like that.

So make a commitment now that if it is not like that, you will not report it like that. It feels proud to report it otherwise? Okay, tell me. We won't take this to be proud. Tell me how it is.

I don't... okay, take your time. Like don't fall for that trap of false humility. Yeah, then I'm not able to truly share, you know exactly what your voice is in my heart. Like I'm not able to truly share. I'll share a very flat version of, like a diluted...

Exactly, because you're scared that people should not think that you're proud. I'm myself scared to just report it otherwise because I'm too used to reporting it. It's easier, like you hide from everything. Self-deprecating is better. It's a comfort zone. Break out of that, because if you report with integrity, then it speeds up meeting, speeding up everything.

I just want to kind of offer something up really to you and to the whole satsang. The name God, it's just a kind of like a bit of heaviness around that, yeah, because of some forms that religion takes at home. And I know that you've always said, you know, if anything is heavy just drop it and that's fine, like it's really absolutely fine. And there, you know, for me 'spirit' really resonates, which is just beautiful. But I can feel some fear there as well, like because of the collective way of seeing, you know. And I've had some really beautiful conversations and explorations with friends at home where they're strong atheists but we've come to this presence together and I can see it's really... one of them is going to come actually to meet you. And it's just so good, it's so good. But I want to step over that. It just feels significant somehow to clear that out within myself and to let go of whatever fear of judgment or misunderstanding might be there because, yeah, as the magnificence of it is unfolding, it's so beautiful that to even kind of hold on to that just feels wrong.

Very valid, very valid. And we had a lot of this happening a few months back because here the expression changed. Everything—well, not everything, but a lot of the ways in which I share started to change and God became more and more central to the expression. So a lot of children here also reported saying, 'But I grew up in this way and God was a very oppressive notion for me. I never liked it. So can I just call Him awareness or call it awareness instead? Can I call it consciousness instead of God?' And then we went—we've been going through this process. So I like what you say very much, that there's one way to sidestep it and say, 'Okay, don't say God, we use another word.' And in the overall scheme of things, that really shouldn't matter. But actually, if God itself is a beautiful word and then we can use that and we can clean up the misunderstandings, the false conditioning around that word, then maybe it can be met in a fresh light and met in a fresh way as a beautiful name of God, as a beautiful remembrance of God. It's like to take a metaphor, to take a simple example: in the last few years in India, the name Gandhi, which was much—Mahatma Gandhi, not the other Gandhi necessarily, but Mahatma Gandhi, which is much revered. Mahatma itself means like 'Great Sage,' 'great one who had Atma Darshan, Atma Gyan.' So that in a way has been contaminated by fresh conditioning. People have changed the narrative, Photoshop has been used excessively, and in the minds of a lot of our brothers and sisters, especially in this country, there's a conditioning about Gandhi which was, when I was growing up, a very beautiful, revered persona is now just like, 'Oh, you know...' At best, it's kind of mind-boggling. But I feel like if I was not sharing about God, then I would spend a lot of time just clearing up misunderstandings, you see, about these things. So to bring Gandhi back to the revered position because...

Photoshop has been used excessively, and in the minds of a lot of our brothers and sisters, especially in this country, there's a conditioning about Gandhi. Which was, when I was growing up, a very beautiful, revered persona, is now just like, oh, you know, at best it's kind of middling. But I feel like if I was not sharing about God, then I would spend a lot of time just clearing up misunderstandings, you see, about these things. So, to bring Gandhi back to the revered position, because he was a very, very honest, very contemplative, very deeply introspective man, and he shared all of that very openly in his writing. And he had a very strong spiritual core; like, his spirituality was very deeply ingrained. And I feel like it's a disservice to ourselves as a nation to not keep that name and give it the value that it deserves because of whatever political reasons they may be, right?

So, in the same way, politics, power, money has been involved with the name of God, you see. And a lot of oppression, exploitation has happened, not just in the name of God, but in all cultures, and maybe a lot more even in India, you see, in the name of God, in the name of Ram, Krishna, so much has happened, right? So, but I'm very happy if you say, "I don't want to sidestep it and I want to meet it head-on and let's bring the truth to light about God and His name, God." I'm very happy to undertake this endeavor with you, this project with you, because a lot of children have come to satsang like this with this kind of oppressive conditioning about the word God. And now it's taken a few months, but I feel like more and more, most of the sangha has started to get comfortable with it now, or they've left, I don't know. I have not kept track; we should do an audit one day. I feel like mostly it's good.

So, if you meet it without any of the other stuff, you see. And we just... like one of the sangha members was struggling because the situation at home was really tough, you see. So I said to her, because she lived in India for many years, she was with Papaji also, you see, and so she was really struggling. So I said to her, "Is there a form of invoking God, is there a name of God which really resonates with you?" And she had a photo of Shiva or a picture of Shiva behind her. So I said, "What about Shiva?" "No, no, nothing right now is resonating at all." And then she took a breath there and she said, "Maybe except just God. Just to say God without any other thing." So I said, "Okay, that's beautiful. Let's start over there. So just as a reminder to yourself, just make this arrow prayer: God, God, God." And she said, "Yes, this I want to try." And I feel like it's really helped her; it's really worked for her because it's such an innocent way.

So, does it matter if we say God or we say Allah or we say Ram or Krishna or Jesus? No, it doesn't really matter. But why discard such a beautiful name of God because of human stupidity? Because of human stupidity, we should not have to let go of that. So, very happy to help in this way.