Sangha Interactions During Ashtavakra Gita Series Ch. 1 - 3rd August 2017

Yeah, that's it. Enjoyed hearing this. I enjoyed hearing very much. Glad you enjoy. Exactly what the whole play of the human condition is in some way. Especially the play of the spiritual seeker is very much like this, where when we come to satsang, we come to the presence of a great scripture like the Ashtavakra, and it seems so obvious. She said these are the five tattvas, the five elements; they are just coming and going. What she implies in that also is that I remain; I am not coming and going. But when it comes, it can seem like it gets me. You see, when it comes, it really seems like it gets me. And then when I look at something like this, it seems so obvious again that none of this truly gets me in any real way. It gets 'me,' it gets this play, this aspect of me. So that is why, if it was snap-snap, if all that was needed was to read it once or one or two verses like this, you see, then we would not need satsang every day. Would we? The power of conditioning, the power of identity, can seem like it has its own momentum, you see. It has been built up.

One example I share is that suppose you looked at a photo of Papaji and you always thought that that is Nisargadatta Maharaj. You always thought that is Nisargadatta Maharaj. And somebody comes and says, 'No, no, not Maharaj, this is Papaji.' 'No, this is not.' And then you have that satsang interaction for a bit and then you recognize, 'Yes, it is Papaji.' But next time when you see it again, the concept will come that this is Maharaj, because for a long time you've picked up the condition that it is somebody else, it is something else. In the same way, because in this play we picked up seemingly for a long time that we are something that is truly affected by the coming and going of the phenomenal realm, therefore it can seem to take time. But the fact is that every time, every time we have to do the work of picking up the false identity about 'I,' although it can seem very natural, you see. Just like for a smoker, it can seem very natural to pick up a cigarette and light it. It can seem actually more relaxing that way, more effortless that way, you see.

So that is what is being pointed to: that because it has become a habit for us to pick up the identity, therefore it can seem like it just... many will report that it just happens when this comes, you see. And to them I say, okay, it just happens, it's fine. But at least now, what is it that you are? And during satsang, even during satsang, just once if you can come to this recognition just like this... you say, 'When I read a verse like this, it's so clear I'm not this.' That much is good. Prasad for one such... that one moment. That one moment, because that one little bit of insight, that one moment is cleaning up the false idea. What are we in the play? What are we moving towards? We're moving towards that place where when these things come, events happen, the interpretation of those comes, then mostly we are just able to let them come and go. Mostly you're just able to let them come and go, if not just laugh at them or something like that.

So how does it come to that point where somebody who's over the addiction and the thought comes and says, 'Would you like a cigarette?' and they say, 'No, why would I want to spoil my lungs?' You see? Why would I want to do that? In the same way, as the mind comes with its offers, you see, the same offer which seems so compelling because of the habit, you see, that has been built up over I don't know how many million lifetimes. You don't even have to get into those things, you see. So don't bother with how long it has been built up, this habit. It's just that we can be grateful that at least now we've come to this place where we are looking at this habit, you see. We have some distance from it. And I know that those moments, those times where it does get picked up, it can seem more intense because our sensitivity is increasing. Somebody who's not... again, I don't know why I'm using this... somebody who has not smoked for a long time, suddenly to have a... what do you call it... have a drag from the cigarette would feel very painful, I'm sure, you see.

So because our sensitivity is increasing, then when we pick up identification again, it can seem more painful. It can seem like it's stronger. Sometimes what happens is, in the design of the play itself, to make sure that you don't pick up any complacency or arrogance, it can seem like my whole life is turning upside down. Events become... seem to become stronger. The interpretation of those events gets stronger. Many times we expect... come into satsang expecting our worldly life to improve in some way. Many times we come and we have just squeezed... everything that we believed about ourselves is getting squeezed out of us. But as we continue with this rehab, as we continue with this satsang, we will come to a point where, whether we believe it right now or not, we will come to a point of pure gratitude for all of these events, even that which squeezed us the most.

So she's very right that we read... when we come to satsang we see, actually, not even these. When in a moment we can see the greater aspect of me is that which is the witness of this entire movement. Most of us can see this very simply, and yet for many of us, as we get back into day-to-day life, it can seem like, 'Oh, these things, it gets us,' you see. So the problem is not so much that it comes and it goes. The problem is not so much that it comes and it goes. The problem is that when it comes, it seems to have a hold over us. It seems to mean something for us. It seems to affect us or hurt us in some way. So as again and again we are clarifying every day: What is this 'I'? Who am I? You see that the one that is affected actually doesn't exist. Just a set of sensations, a set of emotions, a set of judgments, a set of interpretations which are playing out within my being. This is the whole point of Ashtavakra. Otherwise, Ashtavakra also would have just said one verse and finished. That's why there are many pages.

So although recognition is instantaneous, it is the momentum of conditioning which is getting replaced. Just a... which is that two, three things that come up about these conditions. One is that because it has been built up over a long period of time, it can seem like it takes a long time to go, and that's why we need to repeat these things. We need to look again and again at what we are. Second thing is that because it is like this does not mean that we make a plan about how to get rid of it. It only means that in the right now, what are you believing yourself to be? It's all about the right now. Because actually, right now you are empty of all conditioning. Right now you are empty of all conditioning. And this can also sound contrary to what I'm saying, but it's not. I'll elaborate on this. You're empty of all conditioning right now, but the instant we pick up a condition about ourselves, it can seem like we're not just picking up that condition, but it can seem like I'm picking up my entire basket of conditioning. So it plays like this. The mind's game is like this. It is not that when you pick up just this condition right now, you see, 'I want a chocolate cake,' it is not just the 'I want a chocolate cake' condition that gets picked up. It's not that I am just 'I am' and my only condition is that I want chocolate cake. I am that which wants chocolate cake.

The instant we pick up a condition about ourself, it can seem like we are not just picking up that condition, but it can seem like I'm picking up my entire basket of conditions. So it plays like this; the mind's game is like this. It is not that when you pick up just this condition right now—you see, 'I want a chocolate cake'—it is not just the 'I want a chocolate cake' condition that gets picked out. It's not that I am just 'I am' and my only condition is that I want chocolate cake; I am that which wants chocolate cake. It's not just that. When I pick up the idea that I want chocolate cake, the whole idea of this individual 'I' is picked up. This individual 'I' already has the sense of separation. It already has the sense of all the previous desires, all the previous grievances, all the opposites of forgiveness, sincerity, kindness, truth—all of that is part of the condition of desire.

So there is good news and there is bad news. The good news is much greater than the bad news. The good news is that in this moment, we start the moment empty of all conditions. It is the best news, actually. And this is true; it is true till you start to think about it. You remain empty. Then we start to think about it. In spite of whatever the sensations might be, we remain empty of condition. But it can seem like one condition—'Why does this one say like this?' or 'Why is this one like this?' or 'Why can't he or she listen to Father properly in satsang?'—some condition like that, and the whole separate identity, the whole idea I have about myself, seems to come back, you see. So that is the play of the good news and the bad news.

But why I say it's the best news is that in this moment, again: empty, finished. It's like the de-addiction has already happened, but the thoughts of the temptation keep coming back to us. And this feeling, this idea that Consciousness itself has, is that if I pick this up, it could have some meaning for me; it is relevant, it is true for me. So that's why these terms—like I shared a lot when we looked at these the first time—if you look at a term like forgiveness, it can seem like a very normal thing. Everybody says 'forgive, forgive,' but actually there is something very deep in that. Because as we discover what we are, we find this one, this Being, which actually cannot have a grievance. It sees everything happening within itself. All is a movement of its own light. Is it? Or your recognition could be that not even this 'I am'; I am that which is the witness even of Being, completely unconcerned, untouched by any of this. So how can I have a grievance against my own aspect which might be playing out as some relationship or something else?

So forgiveness is this kind of free passage. I read some very beautiful definition of forgiveness: to give thoughts or conditions or grievances about that one free passage. Come and they go. So they're not about you. No grievance is truly about you. So that's why Bhagavan said beautifully—actually, he was talking about some divine weeping or something with someone—and he said, 'Why bother with all this? I have given you the self-inquiry which takes care of everything that you have to experience on your spiritual path.' So if condal has to happen, it'll happen. Forgiveness has to come, it will come. If lust has to go, it will go. If hunger has to... if greed has to reduce, it will reduce. Is it? All of these just by self-inquiry, just by this recognition of who I truly am.

The only way that Consciousness is designed to make itself feel like it is suffering is through this identification with thoughts. So now what can happen is, as we see that we are empty, now the mind has a trump card. The mind's trump card is: 'Yes, yes, you're empty now. You're with Ananta, you're reading Ashtavakra, you see, the Guru's presence is with you. You're empty now, fine. But what about yesterday when you got so angry with your mother-in-law or something?' You see? So in that moment, what happens to the emptiness? You see, we picked up a condition which was 'but what happened yesterday,' as if there was an individual 'I' yesterday which continues here today. So that's how it works.

So what happens is that—that's why I say that—okay, it's fine. At least in satsang, at least in the inquiry for a few moments, can we remain empty of even these conditions about what happened yesterday or how is it going to happen after? Otherwise, many times it can happen that we are in satsang but we are still thinking about the past and we're still hoping that something will improve about the future. Whereas all that I'm saying is: what about now? What about this here and now? So I used to say very often that my arch-nemesis is the 'Checker Guy.' The Checker Guy—you heard of it? Heard of this? Who's making this report card, you see, about yourself? He's keeping track: 'Today, so many enlightenment points.' You see? 'So many stars. Five-star enlightenment today. There, three black dots because you got angry at something.'

So this Checker Guy, this one who's making the report card constantly, is the one. Because I say to this one, 'Please do the self-inquiry' or 'Just look at what is now.' 'Father, right now I'm 90% looking at what is now and 10% looking at what is past.' You see? Any instruction that you give it, it'll make it into a checking. It'll make it into a benchmarking. And this is truly the bane of the spiritual seeker. A spiritual seeker feels like by doing XYZ, coming to a particular level, I will come here. And it feels like the way we did in high school, the way we did in college. It feels like 'I will do it that way,' which is that: 'Okay, yesterday I knew half of World War II, how it started; now today I will learn the rest.' You see? Like that, 'I will make progress on my previous insights.'

Here I say: okay, your most pristine previous insights, awakening experience, can become a part of your spiritual ego. So remain empty of that. You're complete right here, right now. The Checker Guy—whatever it is saying is meaningless about the reality which you're tasting about yourself now. And it has just a few tricks up its sleeve. The most important one is: 'Yes, yes, this is fine now, but yesterday this happened,' or 'It's good, I hope this doesn't go after satsang.' And again, we move away from this and we create a limited identity about ourself and we want to cater to that one. You forget about that one. It is better you leave that one to me. The one that needs spiritual progress, the one that wants to be a certain way—you leave that one to me. All you have to do is follow what I'm saying in this moment. If you're in satsang, if you're open to the words of satsang, all inquiry, all surrender is happening. Nothing you have to do.

So in satsang, nothing to do. And outside satsang, everything is my problem. That's the simplest way to live then. But comes 'but, but, but, what about this, about this?' Take it up with my Father; it's His problem. He has told me. The mind will come—and I'm just sharing some of the tricks so that we can see them, we notice them, and then we don't fall for them that easily. The mind will come and he'll say, 'Yes, yes, Father was talking about spirituality; he was not talking about the real world. You see, he can't take care of my life in that way. He can't pay for the bills, he can't, you know, take care of taking my children from here to there or something like that.' It's not that there is no real world and satsang world. It's another very powerful trick of the mind which says, 'Yes, yes, in satsang it's different, but when I go to the real world, on my day-to-day life...' Is it? Then something changes? Nothing changes. In reality, nothing changes.

It's just that a little bit of the energetic support which you get by being in the presence of satsang can seem to not be there in those times. But actually, the reality of you remains unchanged. So the words of satsang, the surrender, letting it be, is applicable whether you're in satsang, whether you're interacting with a grocer or a butcher; it doesn't really matter. That's the first part of having a Guru. Best part of having a Guru is that everything is His problem. If we have a Guru and we continue to make things our problem, then it's like you bought the best car for yourself, or you inherited the best car, or it was given to you, and still you're huffing and puffing every day to work, walking or running to work. What is the better example? Bhagavan had a better example. He said to get into the train and to keep running, thinking that 'I will get to my destination faster.' You see? It's folly. So having a Guru is to get on the Guru train. Nothing for you to do, really. And what do I mean by this? Especially don't check on your spiritual progress. It's not your problem. Very, very easy. Somebody says something... is it okay to ask me a statement? Is it okay to make a statement? Yes, yes, come. You have to unmute your mic. Come.

Good morning. I can hear you? Yes, can hear me. Good morning. This is nice to talk to you. Um, I hesitated a bit because, um, I feel like a lot of times I want to be seen and heard, so I try to not be seen and heard. You say give it to the Guru, right? I know a lot of people that follow satsang, and I watched Mooji so much before I discovered you a couple of weeks ago. And, um, probably around 2013 I was folding clothes and that's when I, I guess I did my deep inquiry and I had my experience, my enlightened experience where I felt light and, you know, everything that everybody described before. Nothing was there and I had that nothingness in that space. And I know that when I did have that experience, that's when I totally, totally, totally let go of everything, even Jesus, God—I just let everything go, right?

And when you say give it to the Guru, it scares me a little bit, I guess, because I've always been conditioned to just turn to Jesus, you know? So when it's 'give it to the Guru,' it's like: am I idolizing Mooji? Am I idolizing him? Am I gonna burn in hell? But I know when I had that experience it was right, and I know your words are so true. But it's that I'm scared to dive deep and stay, you know, give it to the Guru, to dive deep and totally give it to the Guru, right? But I kind of know that that's the way to do it, you know? And it's really just that simple to just trust in the words. But it's scary because I'm like, what if trusting in his words is going to end up causing me to burn in hell? I think like that.

And I even heard, um, something... somebody was talking to Maharaj in one of the audios I was listening to and he said that. He said, 'I just trust my Guru's words and I just stuck with it and I just trusted my Guru.' It's a big part of me that just wants to just trust you guys, and it's a big love, but it's just that small part that's just like... I can hear my grandma talking to me like, 'Boy, you gonna burn in hell.' I can hear it. So, um, so that's that. With totally trusting a Guru, there's a fear there. And then, um, the second thing I wanted to say something when you were reading the second verse because that's what's been on my heart lately because I forget... it's breaking up. I thought I was gonna cut out the feedback. Go ahead.

I was saying that maybe you pause on this point first and we look at it, and then look at the second point. Because my memory is so bad that by the time you finish the second one, I would have forgotten the first point. So let's look at this question. I love it very much because it's so sweet, it's so innocent, and it's shared with so much integrity. So I really appreciate this question. So, 'turn to Jesus' and 'give it to the Guru' actually means precisely the same thing. There is just no difference between these two, at least in the way I mean it. Because 'give it to the Guru' doesn't mean to give it to a physical embodiment of something. It means to... what is the... okay, let's look at this a bit more in detail. What is the physical embodiment of a Master? Physical embodiment of the Master is just that instrument which is totally being true through the life of its presence, that unassociated Being. The presence is the godly presence, Being, I Am, Consciousness. So Jesus deserves our full reverence because he was completely an instrument to this presence. Guruji deserves our full reverence because he is.

What is the physical embodiment of a master? The physical embodiment of the master is just that instrument which is totally being true through the life of its presence, that unassociated being. The presence is the godly presence, being 'I am' Consciousness. So Jesus deserves our full reverence because he was completely an instrument to this presence. Guruji deserves our full reverence because he is completely in service to the light of this presence. You see, the presence is the same; it is one being, 'I am.' So the Master's presence—say, give it to the Guru—is not 'give it to the physical embodiment,' this person sitting in front, this body sitting in front. It's just like any other body, you see. It is not the body, but what it embodies, what it represents.

Why is it needed that we have... why do I always say that the presence of a living Master is one of the greatest gifts we can get? It is just so that because we are so used to identifying with name and form. So suppose I tell you—sorry, I'm not sure, Cat is your name? Cat, yes. So suppose I say to you, Cat, I have this great friend, and I feel like you will be best friends with this one, you see, but you can't see him or talk to him. Then you'll say, 'But how do I create this friendship? Create this friendship, Ananta? What are you saying?' I say, 'No, no, it's fine. You can't see him or talk to him, just trust me it is there and that's your best friend.' You see, then you say, 'But it's so difficult to make this relationship like this.' I say, 'Okay, I found somebody that you'll get along with even at a phenomenal level.' You'll say, 'Ananta, can you send me their Facebook profile so I can see them? I can, you know, add them on my Facebook page.' Because our habit has become to be able to associate only with name and form.

Initially, before we go to the formless, we need something that gets us in terms of form, in terms of name. So even in the paths which are not idealistic like Hinduism, even in those paths when we go to church, we find a statue of Jesus, we find Jesus on the cross, or at least we find a symbol like the cross. Even for the Muslims, we will find verses from the Quran or a photo of Mecca or Medina. Why? Because although God is formless, for us, because our habit has become to relate to form, we need some sort of form to be able to relate. If your grandma told you to turn to Jesus but you have no visual representation of Jesus—you've never seen a picture, you've never seen a movie, you never went to church, never saw him on the cross, nothing—then you'll find it very difficult. 'How do I turn to Jesus, Ma? It's just... I don't know what that is.'

In that way, the body of the living Master is the purest embodiment of this presence. That's why even Guruji says it is the same thing: Consciousness, Krishna Consciousness, Shiva. You see, all these are different terminology, different ways of representation based on what appeals to you, but pointing to the same thing. So that's why I said that turning to Jesus and giving it to the Guru actually means exactly the same thing. It doesn't matter what you refer to it as; it is what it points to. When Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi was leaving his body, his disciples, his devotees said to him, 'Bhagavan, please don't go. What are we going to do without you?' He said, 'Where would I be? Where would I go? I'm always here.' The body went, the representation went in that way, but he is still there.

The presence that is being pointed to is your own divine presence, is your own holy presence. When we are turning towards God, when we are turning toward Jesus or Guruji, it is this inward movement, moving away from the false identity into our holy presence, into our divine presence. Whether we call it Holy Spirit, we call it God, we call it Jesus, we call it Shiva, we call it Krishna, we call it Guruji, it doesn't really matter. And that's why I enjoy all the religions of the world; I love them very much. But I enjoy Hinduism very much because here, based on your temperament, you know, if you're naughty, you have a God you can go to: Krishna, because he's the most naughty God that you will encounter. If you feel you enjoy righteousness and doing the right thing, then you have the form of Ram like this.

That is why many actually in the West get confused about Hinduism where we say God is formless, there is one God which is formless, why do we have all these? I had a friend who once told me, 'How can you pray to someone who used to steal?' Because, you know, Krishna as a child used to run around and steal everyone's butter. While at the same time you say God is formless and all of these things. So I explained to him that all of this is a representation that we use to come closer to our own formless presence, to our own formless reality. So it's a democratic system; based on what attributes you enjoy, what temperament you enjoy, we have so many millions of representations. You can pick one.

Jesus, of course, is one of the most beautiful representations of this godly presence, which is so full of love, so full of pure knowledge, yet so loving, willing to sacrifice himself for the sins of all humanity. Such a beautiful representation. In fact, when I met Guruji the first time, I felt like I'm meeting one of these sages from the past like Ashtavakra or Dattatreya with the love of Jesus. I even told him this. I want to share something with you. Actually, what happened is when we were there the first time, my wife sat in satsang, and there was not so much information to hear the words of Guruji. Our two kids were very small then, so she was getting irritated because people were giving her the look, you know, saying, 'Can't you keep your kids quiet?' She got irritated and she left the satsang hall and she went and waited downstairs.

In those days, satsang was very rare for me, so I said, 'No, no, come with me, I'm staying in satsang.' But I knew I'd have big trouble when I go back down. I knew I had big trouble. So what happened is then satsang got over, Guruji came down, and all the people started coming down after him. I was on the top of the stairs, he was at the bottom of the stairs, and he had sat down by then. This old watchman came to him who had not maybe bathed for months, and his dress was all dirty and tired, and Guruji was loving him like a baby, as if he's his own baby, you know? He was loving him like that. And then I saw my wife was sitting in the corner over there and she was crying seeing this. She was so touched by this being who could have so much love for someone who physically could seem so repulsive almost. In this way, Guruji then broke that barrier of Advaita-sounding satsang with her, and ever since that day, she's loved him more than anything. This love of Jesus, I only tasted the living form in the form of Guruji. Reminding you of Jesus actually reminded me of this.

So you don't have to worry; it's not a conflict at all whether you call him Guruji, whether you call him Mooji, whether you call him Jesus, whether you call him Ram, whether you call him Ashtavakra. Call him whatever you want; it's all pointing to the same thing. Just as all rivers go to the same ocean, we also call our oceans differently, but it is actually one body of water, isn't it? So if Grandma doesn't understand this, it's completely fine. You tell her, 'I'm praying to Jesus.' It's completely the same thing. Okay, you had a second part to your question?

It's just that simple. That's what's been on my heart, you know, the last couple days. The simplicity. Just that simple, you know? And I guess for the mind it's hard to believe that, but it's just that simple to live in Grace. It's just kind of hard to get that, I guess, but I know it to be true. It's a paradox, but I know it's just that simple. What else could you do but live in Grace? And everything you felt about Guruji, I felt the same way. That's what attracted me to him, the experience versus somebody telling me, you know? So I trust you, I give it to you.

So sweet. Thank you, my dear. Very, very beautiful. I so much enjoyed having this interaction with you and this trust. Very beautiful. It's very helpful. I don't make anything a prerequisite to come into satsang; nothing is a prerequisite. But I do know that having a bit of this trust is really helpful. Because what happens with a bit of this trust is you hear with some openness. Then when you hear with some openness, then you just follow a little bit and it helps. Even in a phenomenal way, it helps. Something becomes more spacious, something becomes lighter, something is seen more clearly. And then that trust develops and that trust grows. And then along the way you find—and I'm not talking just about this representation of Ananta, it could be with anyone, any true Master—as this trust develops, then along the way you find the presence of love is also there.

This love also comes, and then for most of us, we truly discover devotion. Devotion is what just this trust makes with this love: this devotion. We taste this devotion after we are open to the words of the Master. We inquire along with him or we surrender to his presence, and then love is bound to come as a fragrance of that. So this trust grows, love comes, and that is what we call devotion. It is very different from most worldly relationships because in worldly relationships many times we could love someone a lot but we don't trust them, or we could trust someone a lot and we don't love them. So that which is called devotion is that which is such a beautiful mix of this trust and this love. That's what satsang is all about. And when we have this devotion, then it's so easy to say, 'Everything is my Father's problem.' Actually, Father here is so kind. Even phenomenally, it's like he met me the first time, he just picked me up and he's not kept me down from his lap since then. Everything that's happened through here has happened on his lap. The same Father, same Jesus, same Krishna, same Ram, same Guru. Thank you.

It's also very beautiful to see how even the worldly play of these Master-disciple relationships, how things can change, how they can evolve, they can mature. What's happening here is that for many years after I met Guruji the first time, I just felt like I can't speak anything in front of him. I just felt like... if you've seen some of my earlier photos with him, even until the year before this one, you see this very timid child sitting, standing next to his father, sitting next to his father. Only since the last maybe year and a half that something has come here where I can share with him more, communicate with him, and I can see that the love is only growing from strength to strength because of this. So all this conditioning of timidity and all of this also gets cleaned up by his own Grace.

Who's going to sing for us? I haven't heard Ishan sing in a long while. Is Ishan sleeping or he's awake? There he is. Hello! I can't sing really because the babies... so nice. Say hi to Ishan, everyone. Moving towards the camera. Oh, you couldn't hear what I was saying? I was saying, when is he coming to Bangalore to see me? And then I said, this very young, as soon as we can.

Okay, who's going to sing? I just look at the... sing together for the shy ones. For the shy ones. What, you want to sing? No practice, practice. We haven't heard for a long time. Maybe she... I would love to, Father, but I actually don't have much voice, I've been sick. So I wish I could, I would love to sing for you tonight, but I can't. Yeah, thank you. Just have to endure my voice.

Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. Guru Sri Mooji Ki Jai. Okay, we are going to do some Ram chanting. Whoever would like to stay is welcome to stay. Okay. Ram, Ram, Ram.

I don't have much voice. I'm being sick, so I wish I could, I would love to sing for you tonight, but I can't. Yeah, thank you. You just have to endure my voice.

Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. Guru Kripa Kevalam. Okay, we are going to do some Ram chanting. Whoever would like to stay is welcome to stay. Okay. Ram, Ram, Ram.

Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.