Revelation in the Light of Spirit - 21st January 2026

That's fine. It's fine. If it brings you to the 'who' or the 'from where,' then it's fine. What is the point? I promise not to explain the point, but here we go. So the point is to first see where spirituality is not. Spirituality is not a game of understanding conceptually. It's not a game of perceiving any sensory experience. It is not a game of some special emotion. So even Bhakti is not an emotion. So what then is spirituality? Spirituality is—I'll use the term game very loosely—spirituality is the game of revelation in spirit. You see? So revelation in spirit meaning revelation in the light of spirit.

You see, now the point of spiritual inquiry, the point of spiritual sadhana of any sort, is to allow us to transcend these layers and put us in a listening posture—not a hearing, but an inner openness posture—for revelation to happen in the light of spirit. So this posture is called being empty. This posture is called being empty. So if this is clear, what is the playground in which spirituality has to play out, then the path becomes a lot more direct, a lot more clear, you see, a lot more precise. Otherwise we wonder, 'I had a special thought today; I had a thought which I never had before and it had to do with God,' something, you see. So is that it? You see, if I had the thought that 'I am the Self,' you see, and in the thought everything in 'Self' was capitalized—it is all capital—then is it that my revelation is that? Is the answer that? Is that the end of my seeking? It's not. So it's not anything to do with the thoughts that you have.

Then, I had a sensory experience, either seemingly outer or seemingly inner, where I saw some very magnificent thing. But it was something that can be stored in memory, something that can be recalled. It had shapes, it has colors, it has size. You see? So if that is it, then that is not a spiritual revelation. Yeah. Then I felt great emotion, like it was a felt thing. I was feeling so much bliss, so much joy, so much peace. You see, now all of these at best can be part of the outpouring which can come from a deeper insight, but they by themselves cannot be called a spiritual experience. See, they can be called spiritual byproducts. They can be called the prasad but not the darshan. Okay. The darshan itself happens when we are empty, unattached to all of these layers, and then the Atma itself shows us something using a fresh set of eyes. That feels like a knowing, but a knowing of a different variety. A seeing, but a seeing of a different quality. Knowledge, but a knowledge which is very different from anything that we can store in our heads.

So, whatever we do that gives us the spiritual momentum to come empty-handed to the door of the Atma, that is the active part of our spiritual sadhana, spiritual practice. You see, which we often call the cooking part, you see. Then in the allowing ourselves to remain empty like that—ungrasping, unconcerned, uninvolved with time and space—then that is what we've been calling the eating part.

I want to ask, eating is not to stick to the question? If I ask the question 'am I, do I see this cup is' and I don't divert to any other question, I first recognize that I don't have an answer to this. Then if any other thing comes, I leave it aside. I don't pursue side projects. So to keep pursuing that question and failing again and again and again is when to cook and eat?

Okay, so let me expand a bit more on that. You see, now it may happen that you may ask 'who am I' and the mind may present a thought to be the answer. And as Bhagavan directed, he said ask yourself 'who witnesses that thought?' Many times that much is enough. But if an answer again comes as a thought that 'I witness it,' then we ask ourselves 'who is this I? Who am I?' You see, now if that has not done the job in the sense that it has not brought us to that empty place, then we repeat the questioning: 'who am I?' See, how do we know it's not done the job? We're still getting distracted by thought; some other things are coming again and again. We are not falling into the heart. Or if you can't make out what falling in the heart is, it's fine—just that we are getting distracted again by a thought or some sensory distraction.

You see, when do we know it's done the job? Then you can just be at ease in the ungrasping. You just open, you're empty. So then you don't need to ask the question again. You don't need to ask the question. So same thing, let me take two or three different variants. So we see that the path is actually the same. So if you were to do the process which is to say that everything that changes is not the real myself—the real Self, capital S Self, is the unchanging. You see, so we do go through a process which says the world which appears to my eyes and to my senses is constantly changing, therefore I am not that. I'm not that. This body seems to be a set of perceptions and sensations constantly changing. I'm not that. My mind is constantly presenting different thoughts, constantly changing. I'm not that. My emotions change from this to this to this, and although they seem to linger longer, and yet they are changing, therefore I'm not that. You see? Then the 'I am not that, I am not that, I am not that, I am not that.' We don't have to rush to apply to being and not being yet, although that will become part of your inquiry soon. For now we can just rest over there. The mind offers us a temptation again to step out. If this is changing, I'm not that, not that; we keep returning. So we come to the same place: open, empty, ripe for spiritual revelation in the light of the Atma.

Now suppose that the inquiry path or this kind of negation path doesn't appeal to you and you are a bhakta. So you say, 'Lord Ram, incarnation of God, have mercy on me a sinner, bless my heart with the light of spirit. Ram, Ram.' 'Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me a sinner, bless my heart with the light of spirit. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.' You see? And I have videos on how to do it with the breath so that you become calmer and stiller and then you fall into this emptiness. Or if you just want to take one mantra: 'Ram, Ram, Ram.' And if you don't leave it, you will find that it itself draws you into the stillness. Now if the distractions come, you will start to get a sense of whether there is spiritual juice there to remain or you're starting to get distracted. So sometimes just now, in the same way, if you're there and you're starting to get distracted, you just inquire again. Who is witnessing this sensation or this thought? Or remind yourself, 'I'm not that, that is changing. What is the unchanging?'

Or if you're on the path of Hatha Yoga, then you may do some asanas and pranayama and you see after those again you reach the same stillness. In this place, if you do a lot of other puja, then you see that after doing the puja, whichever format of devotional prayer you may be doing, you come to the same place. So it is spirituality because of spirit, and that only means that all that is given to us, gifted to us, is in the form of spiritual revelation. Now does that mean that if you wait in that which I call the holy place and there is nothing yet which you can call a revelation, does that mean that it's a waste of time so far? No. You see, because although—the simple way to put this, although it's maybe a bit too simplistic—is that the door from the inside is always open. So His light is always shining upon us. The Atma is always with us, but He has not yet given us the eyes to meet Him in that way or have any form of revelation. And yet we are growing. We are being transformed within the dazzling darkness or, as the Sufi says, the Marifa. The dazzling inner light transforms us whether we are finding anything that we can call a revelation or not. So remember that. So every moment you spend over there is worth much more than all the gold in the world. Okay? Especially at today's prices. So it's worth all the gold in the world.

So now this is a matter of faith. You see, because what do you have to confirm that this is very valuable? Your mind is not able to say, 'Oh, I have this.' Your senses won't have anything stored in memory to report, 'Oh, I found this.' You see? So but fear tells you that something which is out of this world is happening, which is not possible to buy in this world is happening. No matter what you try, no matter how much mental gymnastics you do, how much you play with your imagination, how much you try to get emotional about God, none of that will actually can replace one moment of that silent transmission from within. So are you getting the lay of the land now, that this is the shape of the project? It is to come and to come to the revelation that is granted to us, graced to us by the Atma itself.

The door isn't something perceivable?

No, no, we've left the realm of perception behind. So, it's just we have to frame words for inner insight which is very difficult to frame into words. So, we use metaphors, we use analogies. What else can we do? So we are not to imagine a physical door, not to imagine anything opening like that, because then you're back to the realm of imagination and memory—not there. It's just a sheer stillness, a sheer silence where we are not able to really put into words. It's ineffable.

So yesterday I was talking with a friend and she said that when there is pressure on me to find this, then I feel humble or humiliated. Okay. And that's true because the pleading from the teacher, the requesting, the cajoling from the teacher is so that we allow ourselves to use the tools. So we can come to emptiness. Now revelation cannot be forced. No matter how beautiful we may say that our spiritual process is, revelation is always a gift. You see, so we can never be in a space where we say that 'why am I not finding it?' You see, 'there must be something wrong with me.' That is not possible and that is never true.

If you were to then look and look at all the layers that are part of our existence—we may call it Antahkarana or soul—that all of these layers are not always in service, or rather they are rarely in service to my spiritual revelation. They're mostly pulling me to the outer, to the ephemeral. And often we talked about this, how Maya presents a topic to us every day to spend our day just thinking about that, you know, or giving us a problem to use our mind and intellect to try and solve. So all of these things just keep us away from that realm of spiritual revelation. So all that spiritual practice is designed to do is to, as Bhagavan said, 'puna puna'—and all the sages have told us 'puna puna'—that means again and again we return. Again and again we wipe the mirror clean, again and again we polish the mirror so that we can be prepared, fertile, for revelation to happen.

We spend our day just thinking about that, you know, or try giving us a problem to use our mind and intellect to try and solve. So all of these things just keep us away from that realm of spiritual revelation. So all that spiritual practice is designed to do is to, as Bhagavan said, puna puna, and all the sages have told us, puna puna—that means again and again. We return again and again; we wipe the mirror clean again and again; we polish the mirror so that we can be prepared, fertile, for revelation to happen.

Now, is this revelation only that in the spiritual revelation its scope is clear that you will see only Nirguna Brahman? No, it's not. See, it's not about that, not just about that. You can only recognize the Nirguna nature of your reality there, but it is not limited to that. You see, we know God's will only there. You see, we know His presence only there. And there are many beautiful things like—I don't know if I should talk about them—but beyond perception, very beautiful things which then make it feel like when the sages talk about Vrindavan, or Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven, or when we talk about Vaikuntha, or these beautiful things. Then you find you feel as if you found a place in heaven without the body having to die.

Hey, let's don't bother about that part. Like you say sometimes when you ask, 'Where is this me?' or the one who is aware, you say actually look for it like you're looking for a phone. And that seems like it's still not stillness because I'm trying to perceive. Would you recommend that or would you—

It's very good. It's very good in the sense that we were talking about this yesterday. So the negation part, I was saying that is fairly simple, although it may not immediately seem very simple. You see, so when I say 'Where is this me?' it is fairly straightforward. I can't find such an entity on the outside. I don't find the one who has money in the bank account as the body. I don't find it as an emotion, as a thought. So to negate that is fairly straightforward.

So the 'not' part, at least if you've been in spirituality for some time, seems fairly straightforward. If you're fresh, then even that part seems to be, 'But I'm this, no, but I am,' you see, like that. So that kind of cleanup has to happen. There's initially that resistance to say, 'What do you mean there is no me? I'm here, of course,' you see. So then all kinds of questions like, 'As what? How did you come here? What are you calling that? What does that look like?'—all these questions are in service to that cleanup, you see.

But once you can clearly say, 'I'm not in this layer, I'm not in this layer, I'm not in this layer,' then the 'not' part is fairly simple. But then many confuse in the modern world just the ability to do the 'not, not, not' as the finality of the revelation, which it is not. Otherwise, it would be very ironic. So just because you can conclude that 'I am not this, I am not this, I am not this, I'm not this,' doesn't mean that's it. Then, you see, there is a quote-unquote 'positive' which we have to meet. So, okay, let me not get into Vedanta versus Buddhism, but the positive revelation that 'I am That,' you see. Maharaj's book is not called 'I Am Not.' It's called 'I Am That,' you see. So now that 'I Am That' cannot be a mental conclusion. It has to be a spiritual revelation. You see? So why is that exercise useful? Because the 'not' part is important. It brings us to that stillness.

To elaborate what I mean is, before I used to feel it's some door here, I had to go inside, wait at the door, all of that. But even now, I'm trying to trace from where I'm aware of this, as though I can kind of—there's some perceptual things.

Yes, so from where are you aware?

I try, I don't—

So I would call that also a spiritual question. You see, what I would call a spiritual question is any question which we can't really handle with our mind and intellect.

So if you say, 'From where am I aware?' it's a good spiritual question. It'll only be answered in revelation.

But what about the role of perception in the trying to find, noticing where, or observing or—

Yes, but perception is quite straightforward. Like perception has a boundary, like there's a spectrum, a lot of color, light, all of this stuff. And then as you pull your attention to the other direction, it's just—

Blank, it's dark.

So there's not so much to play around with perception. And you can fade away that light and you can go towards the dark, but basically the spectrum is between that light and dark. You see, now who is aware of this spectrum? That is the question, isn't it? So when that question is asked, then it pulls us out of the quality of perception or degree of perceiving, you see, and it can only be a spiritual revelation which answers that question.

Like you can say conceptually, 'Awareness is aware of perception,' you see, but that doesn't satisfy. Like we know whether it really satisfies something within us or we're just frustrated and we want a conclusion, you see. So the idea in this, the point of the Shabri stories, is to not get frustrated and to make ourselves constantly available for that spiritual revelation to happen. So just to sum up, it's like I keep trying with the wrong instruments. Fail, come to the stillness and remain there. That's—

Thank you. That's good.

And because we don't like failing, then as we progress in this, we'll not waste too much time. We know where the wrong instruments are leading us to failure. So we won't spend too much time with that.

So just as I was hearing you again, playing like that, the perception isn't what we need to go with. Is it on? Yeah. Then actually, when if we recognize that the perceptions only show me the world at every level of sensory or intellectual level, it's all within the realm of perception. So you can actually in one stroke just negate the whole world as just say, 'Okay, it's not anything that I will get in this realm,' and then you just become quiet again and you just sit in that emptiness again.

Exactly.

And sometimes you say that like that one question, like one pointer if you hold, but still I have to sit in that emptiness.

Yes. No pointer is potent enough.

Yeah. No, with all humility I'll say this, that no name of God is also high enough for us to bypass this.

Correct.

Waiting at God's door.

Yeah, I can vouch for that because I've done it in different ways now and I see that I have to come there and wait there. There's nothing which can be like, you know what I mean, like override. Let's override. There's no jumping patience or humility for that step.

So isn't there something which I can do?

So when you feel that frustration coming because you're waiting—sometimes you're not feeling it, but after a bit you start feeling it—then you just keep chanting the name again or whatever. So in a way, spiritual growth is when we get used to not falling for the tricks of the mind. These layers, frustration, emotion, all of these, and we just find our way straight back to—

Correct.

So it becomes almost magnetic because you start to notice that there's not just a pull in Maya, there's a pull from there also. You see, but this pull is not forceful. It's more like a loving magnet. And when you're there, you don't want to be disturbed.

And the mind has to try a few times before it breaks the connection. So you also notice that the mind, the suggestions and all, are actually just whatever they are. They're not really—I mean, they're not impacting you in any way, impacting the stillness also in any way. Sometimes they just—you recognize them to be where I would have identified with them. Now I don't.

So then all that leads you here.

Yeah.

Can be good. All that takes you out is not required.

Yeah. See, yesterday remember you saying that you need one question which your mind can't answer. If you want a question, then use that one question. That would be like the pointer. You see, 'How do I know I'm aware of this?' So where is this knowing?

Your mind doesn't let us sit with that one question, otherwise 'Who am I?' actually is enough.

Who witnesses that thought is—

Any of these spiritual questions is enough.

Any one Zen koan is enough.

That's right. You need that. But the mind says, 'This is not working. I've been trying it for two months. I'm not coming to anything. So why don't I switch?' You see? So we all play that game and it's fine. I mean, if you can stick, then fine, but don't beat yourself too much if you swap for something else as long as you're going to that place. The going and staying is the important part.

And you said that coming to that understanding that nobody's doing the witnessing is easy enough, but to stay there is like—it's not initially easy.

No, I mean it took many years to recognize. But now it should be, after being in Satsang so long. No, after the part, the japa, whichever spiritual practice, after that it should be fairly straightforward to at least say that I'm not in this world. I'm not in this body. I'm not in my emotion. I'm not in my thoughts. That part should be quite swift. So let me say 'collect' means like you collect all the—as we do the process of negation or we do the process of inquiry or we do the process of prayer, we find that as we are loosening our grips in all of these layers, they seem to just collect and fall into the heart. You see, now again don't visualize it, just something seems very one-pointed, centered inward, turned inwards. That is what it is, you see. So most of spiritual sharing now I've noticed in the last few years that it's just basically explaining the project itself over and over. This is what the project is.

Yes. Um, so I just feel to check this, you know. In a few weeks this boy is returning to Argentina, so I want to like take the opportunity. I feel like the project, as you say, I feel it's like clear. The sun at the baseline, as you said, trying to keep at it. Right. So like the question comes, if that is clear, using this opportunity still living here is something useful to check with. You know, they say like when the project is clear, it's like you just have to keep at it and deepen, keep—yes.

But if there is anything else that will be useful to check, I see. Yes. Thank you, that's good. First thing, maybe I should not call it the baseline, I should call it the base roller coaster, because it's easy to say that just constantly be with God's name, but that constant is up and down here also, constantly up and down. You see, it doesn't stay as straightforward as the concept sounds. Now what are we doing in that? So what I'm saying is don't beat yourself up when things seem to be low, then just like Hanuman Prasad Ji said, that if you've fallen down, just get up. Don't think about why, where, how far have I fallen—all of that then just keeps us down. So just get back up and restart the name or whatever the practice is.

What is the point of it? The point is the cooking. You see, so when we get used to it, then you will find that there will be just the prayer and the silence. So the cooking and the eating, the cooking and the eating. Initially it'll be safe to say that most of the time we'll spend in the cooking, you see. So therefore it is fine to say just keep up the name or the inquiry constantly. But don't chant the inquiry that—I don't know if it helps, but then you might as well chant God's name if you want to chant something.

Don't inquire—

Huh?

Don't inquire into the chant.

Don't inquire into the chanting. Yes, don't inquire into the chanting. Well, that's a tough one. All inquiry in a way is like—don't inquire just intellectually. Like what is inquiry as we call it, self-inquiry? Bhagavan called it capital S Self-inquiry, he called it. So that inquiry is not a mental process. That Jnana Yoga is the remaining with the question, empty, open to receiving the answer.

Chant God's name if you want to chant something. Don't inquire. Huh? Don't inquire into the chant. Don't inquire into the chanting. Yes, don't inquire into the chanting. Well, that's a tough one. All inquiry in a way is like—don't inquire just intellectually. Like, what is inquiry as we call it, self-inquiry? Bhagavan called it capital S Self-inquiry, he called it. So that inquiry is not a mental process. That Jnana Yoga is the remaining with the question, empty, open to receiving the answer. So if it becomes that kind of inquiry, like I'm chanting Ram and then I just feel like 'Where is Ram?', that itself may take us away. But initially, don't do too much experimentation; it may not be helpful. But it's very difficult to give straight answers to these things. But usually, it's not good to do 'Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?' No, like, then you might as well take God's name because you're just chanting something. And maybe 'Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?' may also help to keep the other mental distractions away, but you have much more potent—like, you can just test for yourself what is the difference when you say 'Who am I?' What is the energetic momentum, spiritual momentum that you provided, versus if you say Ram or Krishna or Devi or Allah or Jesus? You know, you find that through generations these utterances have been energized with God's devotion and, in a way, it's a gift to us. So better to use that, although conceptually you can use any phrase to keep you away from the mind distraction. But my feeling is that you'll have to cook a lot more for that to make you fall in the heart.

Is it—I remember correctly reading he says if you can't do the inquiry, mind and—it's not like it's not a—okay, then just say 'I'. Like the real—keep saying 'I, I'.

We spoke about this that day.

Because to say 'I' is—we use it trivially, of course, but he meant like say 'I' as a—bring you to that.

But that is also—just make sure that doesn't become 'me, me'. I remember reading it because somebody must have asked that question. Safest, safest to take God's name, or just sincerely ask the question 'Who am I?'. 'Who am I?' doesn't take much to sincerely ask the question. So mean it in the sense that when we ask it, we mean it. And in a way that's true for God also, for God's name also. If you mean it, like we mean it as an invocation, we mean it as a request, that is more potent. Then as you deepen, you see that it may become a cooking, eating, cooking, eating. Okay. So the symphony of that we can't predetermine. You may say one 'Ram' and just fall into stillness for two minutes, and then you may come out of that stillness and say 'Ram'. It may be like that. So that only grace can determine how it's going to play out. You see? So don't expect it to be easy. Don't expect it to be always sweet. Don't expect to gain mastery over this quickly. So it's a lifetime project almost. So you just have to keep at it. But just because I say lifetime project doesn't mean that it's about a pot of gold at the end of that. You see, it's a constant grace. It's a constant grace upon. So that will help you not get into any of the spiritual frustration. So one moment of taking God's name, truly asking who you are, sitting in that stillness where that dazzling darkness is shining upon us—one moment of any of these is very valuable. Don't let the mind frustrate you or disturb you in this process. That's very important. Then you will find there are degrees to your eating also, which is fine. Maybe we don't have to get too much into that. You just feel like it becomes deeper and deeper and then union, those kind of things. It's okay. We've spoken about that in the seven mansions and things like that, and we've talked about the stages of samadhi and things, but for now this is okay.

Sweet and funny. So I was this chanting and then I had to answer a question. I mean, I had to speak to someone who was very rude and aggressive and they began, and I was still saying, 'Okay, I'm not going to answer back rudely.' So I started praying again and then, you know, suddenly the whole tone of that—I mean, firstly then I suddenly one question came which I had forgotten. They said, 'Why are you telling me?' and so I was like—then I suddenly remembered because they had asked me the question, that's why I was answering it. But because we get to it, then I said it nicely that, you know, this—Father, everything changed. Changed every—and I could see that it was not a fake. It was like a day and night switch. Like it was so—I mean, it felt really good, you know, to be able to have a conversation where you're not hitting back and you're not there.

Yeah. I don't know who is there, but you know you're not arguing anymore. You're just saying two things and you're just closing on whatever.

So that—so like you're saying that it's not going to wait till the end. Like it's just the—

And also the reverse, in the sense that don't expect only good things to happen. Unless we can accept that everything that happens to us is with God's will and therefore good, then that is fine. But we don't expect outcomes to be a certain way always. Clarify it a bit. Another important tip could be—I don't know how it works for all of you—but we learn how to keep a very loose grip on life. Very loose hold on life. We are not holding on to things. Light, light. If you come into becoming in service to the spiritual process, you see, then the life's other processes won't seem as important. Doesn't mean that they will be neglected, but you will not be so attached to their outcomes and what is happening there. That's very important.

The battle is the ground.

Yes. The battleground is our inside. The battleground and the battle—like the spoils of battle is the Antahkarana. What the battle is for is also the Antahkarana, the soul.

Did you say the spoils of battle? Like spoil—what is at stake? What can you win? If you win the battle, what do you get? Sorry, I don't know where this language—taste of whatever you feel.

The battle is for ownership of the Antahkarana. Does God own it or does Maya own it? And the battle is consensual. So that's what he's saying. So more we pray, we are giving our consent to belong to God.

It's like the issues. So the more we pray—I lost my train of thought. The more we pray, we are giving the Antahkarana to God.

Yeah. Infused. Infused, or even if it's not—even if that infusion we give, we are allocating it to God.

And that's the—and the ego can take over also.

So we're not giving it to the false, you see. So withdrawing from the false and offering it to the true. And usually the withdrawing from the false, you see, it drops into the truth naturally as well. Now remember that the infused—what is called the infused prayer—is when we are aware of the infusion. The infusion is actually always there, you see, but what we call infused is when we can sense that we are being pulled in.

Infusion was always there.

That's why I said that the light of the spirit is always upon us, but it may not yet be palpable. So it may seem like the door is closed, but the door is always open from that side. You see, it's not that the Atma will change his position towards us. You see, but the Atma knows what to give us without making us proud, without making us complacent, without doing all of these things. So otherwise immediately full dash, full everything would happen taking God, but then we would start to treat God as a servant. Yeah, we would start to treat God as a genie. 'I'm in trouble. Come now.' Rubbing the lamp, 'God appear.' So how much of a taste to give us, how much of an outpouring to give us, how much even inner insight to give us, how much we are able to put that into words and share—all of that is governed by the Atma itself. So when we can palpably say that 'I'm just falling so deeply into my heart and effortlessly uninvolved with everything, like he has pulled me in,' so then we can say that that is infused in us by his grace. But even when it is not palpably like that, even in the dazzling darkness, there's a great transformation, a great infusion happening to us.

So say we just taking his Nama all day, even then an infusion is—even though we're not aware? Like in focus prayer you're sometimes aware of what's happening. Beautiful. No, it's so beautiful to see that Father always shant. Can you say a little bit more about that? That when you're taking the chant, chanting his name, this infusion.

Yes. Why is it holy to take his name? Is it holy to take his name? It is because anything holy means that it's blessing us with grace, blessing us with love and light. You see, otherwise it would not be. To take God's name in itself is holy. Some say that to sincerely take God's name once means that you cannot live in separation after that. You see, some say that. And I'm saying that if that is the power of saying it once, but we have been given the potential to say it constantly, then imagine that. So it doesn't go to waste. Ah, this is an important point, thank you. So itself is not like—many times I may say it's no point if you don't eat, you see. But it's not like that. It's still useful, but make it a point to eat. And although it doesn't always feel like enjoyment, it feels very dry. Sometimes I feel like nothing is happening.

Till the point I reach the door, it's—till the point I reach the gate, it's dry. No, there it—like, I don't know.

Not always. Sometimes you say Ram and you're immersed in sweetness and love, all of these things, and then that fragrance we can just follow back to the door.

Yeah. No, Father, what I'm asking is—I actually hear you that sometimes it's just you call and then you feel. What I'm asking is that, like, the dryness, it's not there after a particular point. Bother us like—it doesn't bother us after a particular point.

But are you saying that there's a level of spiritual maturity where it'll constantly be sweet? At least not in my experience. I don't feel like we can always count on that. Now I've transcended that dryness, I don't feel like—

Can you say a bit about that? It's just like you're there, nothing is happening. And but last time when you meditated, you were feeling so much love. You felt like tears are coming out of your eyes and you're just going to burst and explode in the outpouring of the love. So I'm mostly talking about the outpouring part. Is it okay if I keep asking? Many people ask about dryness. It doesn't bother me and I wonder if something is off. Where to start? I'm just kidding. Like, what is this dryness thing?

Like this is this contrast. Sometimes we just feel so much like just we want to drown in that love. We want to just taste it more and more. We feel inclined to pray. And the other time we feel like too much distraction, have to pray now. Like, you know, he has said—like sometimes I bother myself with my own pointing, like two hours you have to do every day. It bothers me myself only. So like, do I have to do two hours? Nothing is happening. You see? So all that I speak is from my own experience. Every time I think, 'Father, you have to do eight hours,' just that it just—no, eight hours is—yeah, I don't know. Is the maximum one and a half or one hour? Two to four hours. There's more there. If it's bothering you, there's something wrong with me. I'm not getting the point.

Because I'm not—it doesn't—you never feel like not praying today because it's a bit dull? I mean, I sit to pray every day. I don't know. I mean, it's not like every day there's like a pull to go pray, but I know I have to pray and I sit.

Yeah, that's a better spirit.

So this dryness doesn't bother me. That's—but no, Father. So then don't let the question about dryness bother you. The dryness itself doesn't—it's not bothering, but—because whether the outpouring is there or not, which is not always there, and if it's there for some time, then it's not there for some time—so it doesn't bother me.

Very good.

Every day there's like a pull to go pray, but I know I have to pray and I sit.

Yeah, that's a better spirit.

So this dryness doesn't bother me. But no, Father...

So then don't let the question about dryness bother you. The dryness itself doesn't—

It's not bothering, but because whether the outpouring is there or not—which is not always there, and if it's there for some time then it's not there for some time—so it doesn't bother me.

Very good. But it bothers you?

Huh? No.

So then I'm seriously saying, if something bothers you and it's not, then I'm most likely not getting the point. You see what I'm saying? Like—

No. No. Just like sometimes I have to... I have to just... I mean, it doesn't affect me if there's dryness or not is what I'm saying. Sometimes encouraged or sometimes just say don't worry, there can be distractions, and many times I just want to get out of prayer because, you know, it's just feeling like... and I do, you know, I take a break, listen to satsang and come back. But it doesn't... like, I'm not looking for an output. It's not a thing. It's not a thing at all.

Even that aridity was... I know what you mean, but yeah, don't... in my case, sometimes it just becomes that I had such a deep something yesterday and today I go and it's just like flat. So then that kind of thing, it's just flat, then you have to cajole yourself. Just go home with... like, then that's the war we're talking about. Am I now going to give into my desire to watch a movie instead of sitting there, or am I going to say no, I just need to do this? I mean, that's where the war begins. Am I going to give into the temple? And the topic of the struggle can be various. So we don't have to be afflicted with every spiritual problem that we hear about. We have enough of our own. So we don't... because of course, everybody talks.

If it doesn't bother me, I want to make sure I'm not in some exactly delusion, that's right, unaware of what's going on or I'm—

That's the right approach. That's always the right approach.

And you said it so that I was like, but it does... I feel initial days of prayer maybe, when we just begin, but it doesn't bother me looking. So but yes, I get very distracted.

Distractions are there. That's the right approach that when you hear like sages like St. Teresa have said something and you are not able to find that or resonate with that, best to just ask.

The drowsiness can come, distraction.

Drowsiness comes a lot. One of the channels that we love to watch is a channel called ICS Publications. You know this one where they talk about St. Teresa of Avila and St. Therese of Lisieux and St. Elizabeth of the Trinity? I've seen that one of their most popular videos is how to deal with drowsiness in prayer. So it's a common affliction. It will come. So then you find that you fall asleep and then you wake up in how much time?

Not much time, but before I fall asleep also, I'll get in like a half-asleep kind of state. Yeah. And I'm not following the prayer. Sometime going with mind but not like right now I can go with mind. Not like that because it's like a foggy.

Yes. It's all right. Don't judge yourself too harshly also.

What to do with this?

You just have to hand it over to God. If you try to be too awake also, then that is not... you're not being empty. No.

So I wanted to ask that should I maybe like sit looking at a wall with eyes open and try—

Ah, that's a Zen, Korean Zen method to avoid sleep or something. What percentage of your time goes in like half-asleep if you are in the practice?

So like if I do... there are two ways I do. Sometimes I let a satsang play, which is like more of inquiry kind of satsang. Because it's like almost double or twice easy if inquiry I'm listening rather than I am asking the question. Much like... so in that mostly I'm awake.

Okay. How long is the inquiry that you're listening to?

So like maybe 30, 40 minutes sometimes, something like that. Chanting, if I sit for one hour, I don't know how much I'm awake. Maybe half I'm awake. So like once I know that this is happening, then I do something and try not to force sleep or something.

Yeah. Right. And when if you were to just do the inquiry without listening?

I have not done too much of that. Like because inquiry I can do very deep inquiry, but I'm not able to do long inquiries. Before that I get restricted, I think. Like I'll ask 'Who am I?' and I'll do it for some time, and before I ask there will be a period of going with the thought and all before I realize that, oh, I'm not doing the inquiry. In prayer also, like—

When you keep your japa and it's okay, keep falling asleep, that time will keep reducing over time.

In prayer also I'm able to be distracted while praying. Yes. Yes.

All of us are.

No, no, like even while chanting, focused, eyes closed, but difficult in the sense that... what are you praying?

Krishna, I guess. Okay, so say it, do it.

Krishna, incarnation of God, have mercy on me. Now imagine a tree also at the same time.

But I'm able to do it, I think. Yeah, but not fully in the sense that the experiment is that you are not fully with that. You see, we may not be fully with this. But the power of the name, the power of the chanting is that this will grow and that will reduce. But our attention is so tiny, is so limited. We can't actually give attention to bring clarity to both. We can bring clarity only to one.

Also this emotion I'm not able to really bring toward. Yes. I would decide that I will do with... I will start, but then becomes like a good experience also, but not what it's like because I linked with it with a brain and—sorry, with breath and all. So in that sense it becomes very sweet and all, but not for Krishna. Like, not with devotion or anything.

That's okay. You don't have to worry. Don't have to. Everybody's pathway will look unique. The texture will look unique. Don't have to worry. It's good. It's just that what's important is you giving it time. That's all.

And also this week I have reduced a lot time to again... too much work pressure.

No, no reason. There's no real reason, just that's how Maya plays. That's why I say roller coaster. This moment, get back full swing. That's why don't say 'karunga'. That is then dangerous because that tomorrow becomes tomorrow becomes tomorrow becomes tomorrow and you see that you've been a bit half-hearted with it. Then you notice that is the best moment to start. All this I'm saying from experience because I also say, okay, today is a write-off, not tomorrow.

Ten minutes.

Exactly. Because that ten minutes is a lot. It's a lot. No, ten minutes. I shouldn't... I don't know exactly, the night before you sleep you shouldn't be chanting the name, sleeping, I understand—

It's okay, you know.

It's very, very good. If you sleep with God's name, then that persists through the night and then you wake up with... Yeah. What? I couldn't... the wrong plan. I dialed the address for this one, but where did I come? Yeah, of course. Because we call it so trivially. We call it sleep state or dream state. But we are... I don't know where we travel, where we go, what realms we experience, how much time has actually passed. We don't know any of these things. You see, it just seems like a continuity like that. But we can't really know. And maybe the only time we're waking up here, like because our memory offers us many things. It's a beautiful exploration.

I know like when a dream starts, like you have a history there also.

That was the cue, that you always have a history. Nobody says, 'No, no, don't bother me now. My dream just started. Don't ask me where I'm from.' Exactly. You say, 'I'm coming from there, you know, I had this, please come.' So all of us have a history even in our dream. So it's no big deal that we have memory here. It doesn't convey anything. Yeah, we used to talk about this often. I used to say we don't start a dream with amnesia, otherwise every dream would take many years to acclimatize first and then... but we are off and running. Once a dream starts, we are immediately in a situation, we know what's happening. We are dealing with that and it gets... one thing I've noticed, it gets stranger and stranger before waking up. It gets weirder, at least in my case, it gets stranger before waking up. So if life is seeming strange to you in this realm, that means you're close to waking up. Things are happening.

Sometimes when that strangeness starts, then I can see it's a dream. Then I open my eyes and before waking up as the strangeness—

Yeah, all these... it's a very beautiful exploration into the nature of consciousness and the ability of consciousness to project these worlds with time and space which have no linearity. I told you, no, I had a dream that I was half an hour late and I remembered a full life and all of that, but it was just... I had only slept for that half an hour, but a full lifetime was lived. And all of us have that. So it's a good, very, very good insight into the nature of time and space, so malleable in consciousness. So when Bhagwan says it's all notional, you can really meet it there because we think this world's time is so fixed and these things are so solid, the space is so solid; all of that also feels the same. Now when you wake up and you see that there's no difference between... I mean, I was doing, I was seeing that, but now I'm seeing this.

Exactly. And you start seeing it more, but I'm just seeing it like I was seeing that. That's why the classical story about the king having the dream that it was a butterfly and then asking the teacher.

Yeah. Am I the king who dreamt it was a butterfly, or am I the butterfly that is dreaming of being a king? King Janak. They say the Zen people say it's a Zen story.

It was that, like you said, that you have a full memory in your dream as well, like you don't wake up. So I was like, okay, how am I that... there's that minute where you feel a bit like, like she said, now I've woken up but I realize... but that's not waking up because I'm still... how do I know I'm—

We have these multi-layered things sometimes.

But what is that for? Isn't it that you have a dream then you wake out of that and said 'What a strange dream I had' and then you wake out of that?

Yeah. Okay. I was just feeling like you have these things. So it's not linear at all in the way we think of space, time, and experience and consciousness. To explore is really fascinating, this whole thing. How to... is very like with this consciousness, how it can be so... you should read the Yoga Vasistha. Or you could... I said, how can I ever have an experience of not knowing that I am? Like, how can I? I never have any, even in deep sleep. I mean—

The 'I am' is the substratum for all experience anyways. Yeah. So you can't lose the substratum. 'I'm not there'—you never have such an experience because that is the being itself. The being is the light of the universe. Yeah. So the universe is projected on the screen of consciousness.

So even in deep sleep we don't have this thing like how we have here that 'I am'. We have 'I not'—

Exactly. That is very confusing, no, to the mind. It's almost like that door I'm talking about. To the mind it seems like that, but 'I'm not' in sleep. You see, then we used to say, then is that like a suddenly if you went to sleep now? So if Parth was doing this and he went to sleep, he would never know he went to sleep.

But we know we—

Exactly. So like how would anybody ever talk about sleep state if we were not witnessing it? It would just be a time-lapse moment. 7:15, oh, suddenly 10:30. It's not like that.

The mind. It's almost like that door I'm talking about to the mind; it seems like that, but I'm not in sleep. You see, then we used to say, is that like suddenly if you went to sleep now? So if Parth was doing this and he went to sleep, he would never know he went to sleep.

But we know we—

Exactly.

So that—like how would anybody ever talk about sleep state?

Correct. If we were not witnessing it, it would just be a time-lapse moment: 7:15, oh, suddenly 10:30.

It's not like that. So the 'I am' is only coming when, like, in a different state. But there's a state where you're just the 'I', like the 'am' wakes up.

Yeah. And when the 'am' wakes up, then all this place—that's why when you feel that you know you are, that's why Maharaj said that this 'am' is all the problem. Without that, I'm very peaceful. What is that? 'I am all that' is also part of the dream.

Yeah. It could be—what is that Douglas Adams thing? Layers within layers. What, onion peels within onion? Who is to say?

We can't hold on to even our high spiritual conclusions too tightly. What do we know actually? I remember reading when I was a kid in this Goosebumps series—they posed this, not as a thought experiment, it was just part of the story. You get abducted by aliens in the night. They change all your memories and put you back in some other place, and you think you've been there all your life.

So that's how it seems to—our experience seems to conform to that. You also say, no, that you can't confirm the existence of anybody else apart from just like only thought and perception. I guess that 'I am' is what you can confirm; the rest of it, if you wake up from the sleep—

But even that 'confirm' is a very big question. Like, confirm in the moment from the heart? Maybe you have to put all those riders and still be not so conclusive. That sounds like—that is one fun thing. This has always sounded like fun to me, and I know that it sounds oppressive to many that we can't confirm. For me, it's always like openness, like freedom. We don't have to be closing; everything is open, open, you see. It's just when we are scared of the movie, then just to leave it open—no, let's just close this chapter, 'I am that,' then let's move to the next chapter. To come in that exploring more, you don't want to come to the end of the chapter. You don't have to, you know? You don't need to close so much. It's more fun to leave it open, and our own inner posture open is very different from when it is conclusive. And it is our conclusiveness which leads to the false righteousness and anger, and all of these things come from there. And you just leave it open on the inside, like: Do I really, really know? Do I really, really know? What would be that 'really, really' anyway? Then we live a little open and not so—

You become open to the mind also in that process. You're open, like, I'm noticing also I'm softening up a bit towards the mind. You notice, like, I'm starting to say it doesn't offer the complete truth. At least can we—can we at least agree on that? The mind fully, like earlier, fully choppy, choppy, choppy, everything. Take God's name in the mind; it's—don't, or okay, it's pointing at something, but don't like make it the full truth for yourself, then you're limiting yourself. So softening, I find myself softening in all these positions.

But when you say confirm, it's more like the mental knowledge.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, which confirms—intellect confirm.

Yes. No, but you can—exactly. The heart, no, is not that conclusive in nature. It's very broad. It just nudges a little like that, like that. It's very open and just—it doesn't have the need to be right. You see, it doesn't have to be proven right. I feel like it operates in a very, very, very broad frame and our mind operates on a very tiny frame. So between this contrast—

Too much. Then why—you don't find your heart saying, 'No, not that, that's wrong.' Everything is 'my child.' It's more like that. So this fear, Father, which arises is like when you're trying to—it kind of makes you feel that if you don't listen or if you don't know something, then you'll be like a crazy zombie or something. Actually, it's the opposite way.

Crazy zombie. But also throughout our schooling, throughout our parenting, like as children also, we've been told that: How come you don't know this? Oh, you don't know this yet? Or you got this wrong.

It thinks outside the box. I say that I don't really—I mean that I don't know this person. I mean, I really know them—I mean, my eyes are seeing them, but I don't know what they are. And then I was like, you know, you're going crazy now, stop it and just do something else. It's like—

That is also we have to accept. For ourselves, all of us have to accept that this false notion of some sort of sanity blocks our frames very much, you see. So we have to be willing to accept that okay, we have to be a bit crazy, it's all that. Unless that becomes a new position, like a lot of fake Avadhutas. No, I wouldn't go too far. So then we hear about the sages of the past who just—they didn't care. They were just—they used to go to shops and spill everything over there and say, 'Bless you, bless you,' you know, all kinds of silliness and what would seem like silliness. So they didn't do it, but then you feel like, okay, now that is the way to be. Then that becomes a forced, like, craziness position. That's what I'm saying. So not a fake Avadhuta. That's why I said that you can't drink poison from the king.

Yeah. So then to prove that you're as great as Mira Bai, you drink some poison or something. You don't do that thing. But what if you really did fail then? You really said okay.

That's a lot of faith to know that you're really doing it in faith. No, I mean if you say no, okay, if she could do it, I'm going to have that faith in this moment and I'm going to try. What is faith? There is the difference between conviction and faith. A lot of criminality, a lot of misguided violence, a lot of things happen in the name of faith which is actually just false belief. It's just blind belief. Faith is what your heart is telling you very deeply. And to keep yourself so centered in that when all that is happening, you see, and you're just going with your heart and just like Abraham or something, just going for it because God is telling you—that's very—to have that, that's a different—to be that centered when you have so much happening around you is not somewhere I am at, at least. I mean, here we get shaken up with just the most minute thing.

Exactly. Like somebody's shouting at you and you're like, 'What's happening?'

Yeah. The slightest events shake us up. So when all this is happening, stories can create that heroism feel that some say, that rebellious and—very carefully, like all spiritual knowledge at some level is dangerous. That's why you need to be pointed at the fact: What is the difference between blind belief and faith? All these things need to be pointed to us. But the safety is that really, if our love is for God, our intent is not to be a hero ourselves but to make God the hero, then have some faith that we'll be safe. Like we keep talking about that, no, that like I don't feel God is that oppressive that—we said we felt that we are following God's will truly, but actually it was just an ego trap. God will take care of that situation. We truly feel like we are following Him, but if you just like, 'Oh, I look so good, everybody will know I'm so spiritual if I do this,' that kind of heroism is very troublesome, you see, because that causes all the trouble. All the trouble in terms of spiritual pride, in terms of performative spirituality, in terms of all of these things come from there.

So many wars of these religious ones are said.

Yeah. Putting God in such a tough spot. I mean, both fighting and 'I'm with God.' God is like, 'Bless you, bless you, bless you.' It's not fair to Him.

No, I mean they do such cruel things like saying—Father, I was watching that. Ah yes, I just saw a little bit of that. Just a little bit. And I saw that big Ram.

Thank you. Yes, yes, yes. I saw all—I cried through. I saw quite a bit actually. I cried for quite some time. Yeah. Half asleep with allergies and just watching that and crying. Crying and nose is also watering and eyes are also watering. That's what I remember of that event.

You know, we feel like we humans struggle with power and so silly with power. Father, He had the highest power, you know, that humanity could have seen, and He had a kingdom of so many. And that's why His kingdom—just because of that word that He gave you that He decided to, you know, be true to that.

Absolutely. Only God can be like that. What He had to endure in His—Jesus, probably the crucifixions, and it hurt him so much. Even Krishna, He basically came and said, 'Okay, now this one I will not conform so much,' but even that, how it ended with the arrow on His foot and because of the curse from Gandhari.

Did He suffer? Curse from Gandhari—did He ever suffer? I don't recall. Not known to be good at suffering, like joy.

No, but He had destruction of His clan.

Oh yes, that's true. People say because they say that is the one—the whole clan will become and they became drunkards and all the same that when He also lost, you know, and when—I mean, I was like so happy when He lost, you're like, 'Okay, now just do something, like how can you not feel like—'

Yeah, but we wouldn't be here to be happy if we had lost it. We wouldn't have been here to be about that. Your heart is being—at least He's, of course, giving, like, you know, and He says that, 'I've done enough, why does she have to mind that I'm the most beautiful, others the driver, let's take the mic, it's not fair to everyone.'

So when we are praying and there is like dryness in us and yet we continue to pray. I don't know what my question is exactly, but what keeps me praying, you know? Like that, that is the love, no? That is the true love.

Yes. And I feel that's what keeps us praying. Like we're not really looking for the consolation.

Yes, not the consolations, not the outcomes. Just unconditional. We know that love.

Yes. No. Yeah. That love, no, it doesn't rely on the feeling of love, because then otherwise you can't call it dryness. But that love which is like duty to God is also love. Wanting to serve God is also love. Service to God is love. You see, just in words we have to make all these distinctions, but that devotion contains all of this in some way.

Yes, it's true. So every time we take His name, say—and like he was saying, the bhava is not there, which for me also many times I'm not calling out with bhava. But that very thing I was talking to also, I feel this contemplation that that very calling out is only because I have that faith, I know this love. I won't call Him otherwise.

Of course, the bhava brings you close faster to God. Exactly. But the very calling out to Him is because—we can just say broadly speaking—

What, Father? Like that bhava brings you closer faster, that's also true. Like generally speaking, we can't really say. So what I have noticed is if I, like Ram Shabad says, and when I do that, I know that in my heart. So it's like that takes me immediately in my experience—I'm not sure if it does it every time, but I've seen it many times—that when I say 'Ram' and I then I just fall into my heart, like I just know myself. You know? So but I'm just saying 'Ram,' I'm not comparing, I'm just—what was he saying before that?

No, it's right, it's right that—that's why to mean it has value. Even the inquiry, to mean it, like 'Who am I?' and then 'Ram' as a call, as a sign of love, as heartful offering of ourselves.

It takes me immediately in my experience. I'm not sure if it does it every time, but I've seen it many times that when I say Ram, then I just fall into my heart. I just know myself, you know? So, but I'm just saying Ram. I'm not comparing. What was he saying before that?

No, it's right. It's right. That's why to mean it has value. Even the inquiry, to mean it, like 'Who am I?' And then Ram as a call, as a sign of love, as a heartful offering of ourselves.

Yeah. And many, many times, most times when I call, there is a lack of faith. In a way, there is faith because I'm calling, but that belonging to me—there is a huge lack of faith. Like, I don't get the bhav, you know? Very few times I get that, and when I get that, I'm in my heart like that. It's like a disbelief that God is mine, that I'm God's and He's mine. There's a disbelief somewhere when I call out many times, yet I call. That means that maybe the clearest indication of that is His nearness is forgotten. His nearness is forgotten.

It's a very different texture when you have that, like He's right here and you're just saying His name, versus it seeming like a distant long-distance phone call or something.

That's when then it's mechanical. No, Father?

Yeah, exactly. Which is most of the times for me, it's not—maybe I don't know. Yeah, we can't really say. Soon it will be very troublesome for people to hang around with us, because with our families and everything, our answer will always be, 'We can't really say.' 'Where do you want to go?' 'Just be quiet.' Yeah, that's the best-case scenario. Various other ones also.

So, Father, this door also I wanted to ask, like the door you talk about. I want to ask like a first-grader question. So, the waiting at the door basically you indicate is just to be empty of yourself, whether you're chanting or you're just not going with your thoughts or whatever?

Yeah. So then that door metaphor, door analogy, then becomes just a pointer. So once you've used it a few times, then you just have to remind yourself, 'Oh, I'm supposed to wait at the door,' and something just—then you're not like, 'I'm waiting at the door, I'm waiting at the door.' Not like that. It just becomes the pathway, becomes the groove. So we are replacing old grooves and we are creating new grooves. So if we make our job to wait at His door, then when we're getting distracted, then we say, 'Okay, my job is to wait at His door.' Fall into that.

I'm not able to resonate with that pointer somehow, I don't know why.

And we can't, in the sense that we can't resonate with every—

Yeah, it doesn't hit home yet.

Exactly.

So, but I know when I'm praying, I'm with God. I just know it.

Yeah, that's still a silent place. You see, that's still silence. Not even a place.

You're talking not the presence of the Holy Spirit? No, Father, are you talking of that?

No. Where we are open to meet the presence. So if you're meeting the presence, then don't worry then.

Like the presence is palpable? No, not very often for me.

So then when you just inwardly just—

Yeah, like that. Open to the present. That is very—

Posture inside.

Yeah. Openness, receptivity, listening, empty—all these pointers we use to point at that. Where do we go at the fifth neti-neti or the sixth neti-neti, or where do we go when the 'Who am I?' is asked and we're not falling for any distraction from the mind? Same place. Very different. Like in that document of Atma Darshan Samadhi, you had mentioned that after Bhava Samadhi you should stay with the love. And you had also said when you started talking about the door, you said that it's an outpouring from the other side of the door. So where I would feel the love, I thought in the chest, so that where that is coming out, there I have to stay with my attention and do the prayer and that will open. I had all of this around it. It seems all right, so the outpouring comes from there. Yeah, you are saying that's the door that's perceivable?

The outpouring is perceivable.

But it's from a physical kind of, almost physical kind of place, like I can locate it in the chest.

Yes. But that physical location, do you see that as the source of that love?

Kind of. Yeah. Like you have a—it's not really like you get a sense that I'm feeling the outpouring of love, peace, joy in my heart.

Yeah. So does it feel physical in its—it's a tough question. There's a heart that is beating.

Not that. Not that chest center. In the chest center there's all this rib cage and bone, all that. It seems like a different realm.

Yeah. It is not physical in a way. But if you follow this, that love which is felt, to its source, then it takes you to a place where there's no up or down. There's no sensation. There's no shape there. You may use the pointer that it is the heart—that's why we all call it the heart—but we are not to confuse it with the physicality of the heart or the physical space of the heart.

But I would feel that if that perception wasn't there, then I'm not at the door, and there would be a lot of effort to make that.

That's why it's very important to know that there's not a constant outpouring happening, you see? Otherwise we'd become complacent about that.

So, realizing where we feel in that different dimension, we should go to the source of that one, not—

No, no, just the source of the outpouring itself. Yeah, so then to see that it's not a physical location, but it feels—although I love these infinite, I'm half-tempted to say yes, but I don't want to complicate it too much. But I'm saying like it feels like it's from a different dimension. If you can go to the source of it, we must go to the source of it. When there is no further neti possible, no further 'not that' possible, then you are at the door. That is what I'm calling the door.

But just now when he is asking and being—

Yeah. So if you follow the source of that love, you follow the source of that peace, that joy, it brings you to a place where there's no spatial construct to hold on to. There is no time, there is no nothing really. We can't say 'not this' anymore. Sheer, sheer stillness.

Like the limit of the instruments.

Yes, limit of all the instruments. You can't stretch. There's nothing left to take one more step back, isn't it? Yes. So, we've retreated back fully with everything: attention, with emotion, with mental capacity, intellect, everything. There's no room to go for any of these over there. They just can't enter. But you don't even want to go through. There's no—it's getting too fancy too. I just want to say, like after hearing a beautiful bhajan, just go into that still silence.

The same question I had actually wanted to ask and then he asked. So, like I feel a palpable—not physical, it's not physical—a light. And I feel like from there the infusion happens, but whatever infusion it is, okay, and that's physical.

Light. Okay. Is it light and not light? Both? Means, is it both light and not light, or is it clearly light? If it's clearly light, follow it to its source. If it's both light and not light, then that is the presence that we are talking about, the light of spirit. Like, can you conclusively say it is light? Light like this light, like any light? But you can imagine that light. Knowable. I can see that and not see. Just follow it to the source. It has certain vibrations. Yeah, so we can't really be so—there's an outpouring which is the light of light from there. Okay, now this is not my fault, okay? This is how God has designed it, so don't blame me. There's an outpouring which comes in the form of a holy light, you see, and that's mixed with love, peace, joy—all these things can be there. Now that we have to follow back to the source. When we stay at the source, then what am I calling the opening of the door? Then we start to get the Darshan of the Atma within. Now that Darshan is not something like 'I saw the light of spirit,' you see? It's more like, 'Yeah, I sense it.' Like you use a different instrument. It's intuitive. You see, it's known from a different place. So, we can't really see. So, somebody says it's really light. Yeah. But is it like the other light that you notice? Not really. So, is it like a vibration, like a sense of presence of being known? 'I am that vibration.' Yeah. But in that 'I-am-ness,' no, there should always be like—words are contaminating. Like, I'm not able to fully capture it in words. So if it seems very precise that this is vibration, this is light, this is—then you can safely follow it more, like deepen. Where is this coming from? Then it becomes all very difficult to capture it into any sort of physicality. Like, we can't place it in memory. If you can remember what the light looks like, then follow it to its source. You see, that's one tip also that could be useful. So in the world or in physicality, if you ever notice a light, we can put it in memory: 'No, this is what it is like.' So even if I feel it coming in the heart, if I can remember it, 'Ah, this is it,' then that can be followed. Then that is part of the outpouring of love and light from God. But the light of God, the light of spirit itself, is very—it's very subtle, very, very subtle. The subtlest vibration, you see. And if that becomes an imagination, then follow that. So even the word—that's why you have to be very careful with the words, because I say 'subtlest vibration,' the mind also presents, 'No, subtlest vibration like...' But that we can't just—in the mind it's fresh. Yes. It's just fresh and alive constantly. But we can't really grasp. You see, it's always mystery. If it ever feels like 'I've solved the mystery,' then that is not the mystery. It's always mystery. It's always more to deepen. Always like a glimpse of the beloved, you see, but she hides immediately. You get a glimpse, yeah, but it pulls your heart. Just pulls your heart. So that's all to this. That was a good explanation.

Tough, tough. 'Where is it coming from?' You can just ask that question and that'll eat you. The beauty about questions is that in our design, there's something in our design which knows which instrument, how to try and resolve this at what level. So when we say, 'What is the color of a banana?' something just—we don't have to like force it. Something in the mind is already forming visually. The mind is offering the thought 'yellow.' Now when it is given these deeper questions—'Who am I?', 'What is the light of spirit?', 'What does Atma look like?', 'How do I know that I'm having Atma Darshan?'—now these questions are very subtle, and yet all of our Antahkarana is on the job of trying to resolve it, you see? But it's like a bad AI, you know, sometimes, the mind. So it's designed to give you an answer even if the answer is a hallucination. So in that same way, if you keep falling for whatever it is saying—that's why the sages have told us it is not telling you the full truth of this. It does not have the capacity. So that where you know love, where you know light which is not of this world.

Yeah. There's one more thing I want to ask. So like this, when even that 'follow to the source,' you would say you stop at that point and stay at the door. And the reason I thought that was the door was because when I try to follow it, I can't go through. I get stuck at that sensation there in the chest. But you seem to say that it's—

Follow that sensation then.

I'm just stuck there. I've never gone.

Who's aware of that sensation? I am. Is that 'I' which is witnessing that sensation stuck? What is stuck? Attention is stuck. Okay. So attention has reached its limit. You see, usually attention does not get stuck at a sensation. It gets stuck at a sheer emptiness.

Go through. I get stuck at that sensation there in the chest. But you seem to say that it's—

Follow that sensation then.

I'm just stuck there. We can't. I've never gone.

Who's aware of that sensation?

I am. Is that I which is witnessing that sensation stuck? Stuck. Uh, what is stuck? Attention is stuck.

Yeah. Okay. So attention has reached its limit. You see, usually attention does not get stuck at a sensation. It gets stuck at a sheer emptiness. You see, so if you withdraw your attention even from that sensation, it'll get stuck at a sheer dark empty.

This also I haven't been able to do. It gets stuck here further.

Your attention is here?

Yeah. If I say can you withdraw it from that? That's the door. Huh? That's the—it has to open for me to go. At least that's how I see it.

No, no, no. Just withdraw it from there. Just withdraw it from that. Any sensation you can withdraw from. You withdraw it when you move it to something else, no?

Yeah. Like that I can. Outward I can, but inward I can't. At the core, at the very center of your attention inwardly, it's a sensation right now. Yes. Check. Check.

Yeah. I feel that sense. This is it. I can't go deeper in like the origin, that sensation.

I'm, yeah. Okay.

That's fine. Now you are aware that your attention is on the sensation?

Yes.

Is that awareness stuck?

No. I don't know where it is, that awareness.

So then use that question then. It'll get you unstuck. It's almost sounding like a framework which the mind is using to trap you in that construct. It's been a very long—but you're getting stuck in that place. So just stay. Where is the one that's aware of this? It will get you more room. These are very subtle things because we are talking at the very heart of Atma Gyan, Atma Darshan.

I mean, don't see that light, you know, when you're seeing and you know when you're not seeing the light inside that, the outpouring or the light of spirit. I don't know. Maybe we just roll back.

Maybe. So when we know that it feels like—it's not a physical light. So you said go to the source.

Yeah. Outpouring also doesn't feel like this. Again, blame God.

Okay. No way. I'm just asking.

Put it to God. Say because like—because I know how as I'm saying it, I'm realizing how confusing it is sounding.

No, it's not confusing. Naturally, the outpouring also doesn't really feel like this outer light. No, no, that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. It doesn't feel—emotion like love itself, closer to that.

So you're saying that that light we're seeing is an outpouring and we still need to go because when it's not the outpouring is not there, we are aware that it's not there.

I'm just saying, I mean, I'm aware it's not there. I'm aware that that light—now if I drop everything and look, I may see. What is the light of I-amness? Is the question that's clarifying. I don't know what this—call that light anything. Like how is the I-amness found?

I didn't know all these things. I just perceived it and—perceived it, not perceived it. I didn't have—

No, here we have to be precise, no. The minute if I say you perceived it, then we make it an object of perception.

It's not. Okay. Okay. So, let me check. But it just—you just come upon it. I don't know how to—but I—how we know that the outpouring is not there, Father, all the time? The same way—that is, yeah, that is the outpouring is felt, perceived. Will I say it's perceived?

Okay. So then that light is also in a way perceived, and I have to say that because when it's not there—and yet unperceived.

Okay, it's unperceived.

No, that has to—it has to feel like that. Like if you feel like you have a perceptual handle on it, then it's—

No, I don't have any. The mind doesn't have a handle. Mind—yeah, it's like—perception can't get a hold of it. No. Like it can get a glimpse of it.

Correct. You see, but it can't—both perceivable and unperceivable. There's no control over it. You can't say now I want it or now—I mean, there's no how to say—no, I'm not getting help me.

Yeah. At this point, you just have to keep looking. Just keep looking. It's a very holy space. Okay? It's a very holy space. So and it's a pure gift, like we can't force our way here. We just have to sit in humility and patience. It's a pure gift from God. Like we can't say now let me open my eyes a bit more and then I'll be able to see. None of those tools are there.

Now, that's what I meant there. It's not like—

Like it's beyond attention. It's beyond all of that. So attention comes to its very limit, like the spring is fully contracted, come to the—you're seeing this darkness when that happens. Yeah. It seems like, um, it doesn't—the finality or the base origin point of attention is not a sensation. You see, it's so—any sensation we can withdraw from. But it's dark, your eyes—like when you're, um, when you're—no, with eyes closed. So with eyes open, there's then our attention is—part of our attention goes there anyway. So I'm saying if we were to—if our attention was to fully fall in to its very origin, it is absent of any perception except a darkness, an absence of light. You see? So what is perceived is still perceived. You see, but beyond that is the new set of eyes which I've been talking about. I'm so glad we're having this conversation because really, so because almost every day I say we need a new set of eyes to see. So it's not this attention, no. So when our—when all our faculties are withdrawn like this, we're waiting at the door, which I call the door. And that term is troublesome, forget it. Just we're waiting in stillness. We're waiting in silence there. Is really a waiting, waiting.

Not like I'm waiting, waiting like that.

Yeah, just staying. Let's say abiding, staying, remaining. All the sages have used these various words. You just remain. We abide, yeah.

Yeah, let's say remain. Sorry.

No, no, it's okay. It's okay. It's good to be precise with this. So you're remaining there.

Yeah, anchored. That's what I see, being anchored. What did you—so the—like the anchor pulls you in and if you're following like the source of the love, there's outpouring of love, the fragrance of love, then it gets you here and the love is there to keep you anchored into that. So if you lose that, what am I supposed to find the source of? Then it seems like you're doing it in an unanchored way. Yeah.

You see, but now that the love is there, then you can always say where is—where is this coming from? What is the source? Without necessarily needing the words, without necessarily needing the words to say what is the source? You see, where is this coming from? It's still like look for the source. So that in that way then that love becomes the anchor for our looking, for our seeing. Without that it's so difficult. So with God's name it becomes an anchor for us to keep our attention not distracted.

I tried to stay anchored to that sensation which I thought is the—it still seems to be the origin. Deeper than that I can't go. I should try.

So if there is something that can be absent in your experience—if there is something that can be absent in that experience, then that cannot be the origin. You see, you're seeing that, isn't it? It's okay. Maybe this just to help him. I'm just saying that he was feeling like the attention at its base itself has a sensational perception, you see? And I'm saying that if this sensational perception can come and go, then the base cannot be that. It has—the base has to be as a neutral, you see, on which other experiences can be drawn. So if the water organically had a taste, then that taste would always have to be there. You see, it may get camouflaged. So on top of that sensation other sensation may come. You see, it may get camouflaged but it will always be there. Now at the base of our attention is a sheer neutrality. You see, so any sensation has to go. There's no sensation which is permanent. Otherwise your neti would end there, no. What doesn't come and go? That sensation. You see? So, every sensation comes and goes. But—

How do I get to that? I'm stuck at that sensation. It goes, I—it's like a—now that you have this, it'll go. Sometimes we have these mind and thing has these constructs and then as we keep looking, as we keep checking in openness without concluding too far, I feel like—with that I'm just continuing with that. So in that same place I feel now like the light comes and goes. It's not like—like I've even on that call I told you, you know, like I just—it became apparent. Like he just—when the light becomes apparent I just kind of know he's here. Like that's the easiest handle. In the same place sometimes I feel like he quietly declares himself, like just 'I'm here,' not—know—

And that here is—so you quietly declares it means not in words?

No, but here.

So that here is not—here is where? But how is the hereness known? Like how is this declaration known?

Intuitively I know.

But how is it known means intuitively?

In the same place.

And from the same place I feel the infusions come, the light or whatever here.

So that like if you ask me that feels like the doorway. Like and many times when I'm listening to a bhajan—that is the door, that is the doorway. Like I feel like how, how—

Is the—the word doorway is too confusing, let's just throw it away. Yeah. Whoever is not appealing to, please throw it away. Father, like so sometimes like I—I feel like that's how I—like I told you once like that the—I carry—I don't want to sound immodest but I want to say it, okay? Like so how Hanuman Ji's heart opens and God resides there, I feel like that he resides in each one of—right there. And many times I feel I'm carrying him, that—like that's—that's what I'm just carrying him in my heart, very literally.

Praise him. Right there. Yeah. Like a living temple. You say, you know, like—the only point of calling it the doorway is that that is all that seems to be what I can actively pursue. Yeah, like the cusp after that is a pure gift. Even this is a gift. You see, now we have to use words. So that's why I'm saying the rest of it is a pure gift in the sense where there's no—there's no intervention at all. Like it has nothing to do with my attention. It has nothing to do with my emotion. It has nothing to do with my mind. It has nothing to do with my imagination. There you—it's not active like you. So this—this part is the active behavior where you're—disable using the practice, using whatever, using the even spirit of surrender to fall into the heart.

And I get it. So we can say fall into the heart instead of door. It's okay if that helps. Go first. I'm not fully following the guidance like I can be fully with the words today.

Yeah, it's difficult. Like I'm also not fully following the guidance today. So—feel like maybe I'm making—that—let's return to the simplicity. What is the most beautiful devotional song you ever heard or one of the most? Have—I don't know. I had one, I was singing one today but I don't know what the most—you see there? Okay. So, just anyone which makes you feel after that you want to just take a break and just close your eyes and sit. Okay. And you do not—in this case the song, the praises of God provided the spiritual momentum for us to fall into that silence. That's it. That's the place of the holy encounter, the rendezvous point with the beloved, the place of Atma, whatever we call it is there, inward facing. So now we're realizing the value of the practice, the value of the raw material that we're using to cook ourselves in a way. So the holy name of God, the inquiry, all of these things, the neti, just surrender, wanting to follow God's will, all brings us into that stillness. This is the silence. Remember, listen in silence. This—this is the silence. Remember once we spoke about silence, we're saying that—but isn't silence better? So that this silence, not the silence the absence of words, this absolute stillness.

The value of the practice, the value of the raw material that we are using to cook ourselves in a way. So the holy name of God, the inquiry, all of these things, the neti-neti, just surrender, wanting to follow God's will—all brings us into that stillness. This is the silence. Remember, listen in silence. This is the silence. Remember once we spoke about silence, we were saying that, 'But isn't silence better?' So this silence, not the silence of the absence of words, this absolute stillness.

This also has something to ask you. Yeah. Like once when I was in through online, I asked you that—you asked me whether when I sit for a focus prayer, am I always throughout, am I doing something active? And then you asked me to notice, and I did. And I noticed there were gaps when I wasn't trying to do anything. And from that moment on, I've been trying to just—I just go sit, that's all. Now no effort, nothing. And I do follow, I notice myself following thoughts, all of that, and it gets dropped. But I'm not trying too hard to ensure that that doesn't happen. The only goal is to just sit, eyes closed. That is—what would you say about that?

It's fine. Whatever brings you here, that's fine.

Okay. Not satsang. You don't mean satsang.

No, no, no, not satsang. Sorry. I'm talking about this thing, or I'm only falling into it so much. I'm not able to keep much attention outside. But we'll talk more about that. I want to hear Claudia.

I don't know if I'll be able to do justice to it. Yeah. Happy to. There is this point of holy encounter in me, but this story of the—or what it is, this black empty hole—I never passed through there or I never experienced it.

Maybe I need to just simplify. So we can see that in our attention, it can be with phenomena or it can be on the other end of it, the absence of any phenomena. Isn't it? All phenomena comes and goes, can be let go of. No phenomena is permanent. But that is not the end of perception. As long as there's attention, there is perception. So when there is no light, no object, no phenomena, then it rests in that which seems like a darkness. If you close your eyes and leave your attention free, don't let it attach to your thoughts, emotion, nothing. You will come to a point where your attention becomes one-pointed and falls into what I call the heart, but basically into that stillness, into that silence. That is all that I'm saying. And it's very natural. It happens when we hear a bhajan also. That's what I'm saying. Very, very natural. But now we have come to the end of our attention. You see, like the end of our attention's capacity. It cannot help us anymore where we are going. You see now that where we are going is a pure gift from God. Atma Darshan, Atma, self-knowledge, truth, true self-knowledge. So that's why I'm saying we just have to remain here, wait here, whatever you call that. So when I was a naive child few years back and I used to share satsang, I used to just say, 'Just be open and empty. Just be open and empty.' This is it. But I did not have the words to explain it like that. When you just open and empty, attention falls like that, you know, in your heart—the spiritual heart which is the core, as Bhagavan said, the core of your being. We have to use words: the core of your being. So that's why he said that, because that's where our being reveals itself to us.

Yeah, that resonates. Yes, it's actually the most natural, most simple there is. I see the mind's version. It's like, 'Oh, there's a black emptiness which I have to pass through.' It's not that. I'm just naturally, when attention is withdrawn from the world, it's like almost being asleep but not sleeping. Sometimes love or something, there is something, but actually there's a dryness, but it's not frustrating. It's just like that, but all is good.

That's fine. We have to practice to stay there and then abide in that. And then from there, when the reports come, the point is to remain empty. Flavorless. It is innermost to find the attributeless one. We remove our attachments to worldly attributes. See, all stickiness, like with attention, with belief, with all these layers of attachment, we loosen up our hold on all of that. And then there's a point where I cannot do anymore. And anyway, I'm fully aware that I cannot do. But in the seeming itself, I cannot do anymore. There I remain. I cannot go any further. There I remain. I don't have any devices. I don't have any faculty to take another step. It's so empty now. Hands are empty. No tool left. Now it is up to God. That is the sheer surrendered state. Sheer innocence. Now, this is what we were saying in satsang, that this is the space of spiritual revelation. Spiritual revelation.

Something more, something you said earlier kept resonating. You said something like—I don't remember exactly—but no need to conclude anything. You know, what do you—I just forgot.

That's good. Don't conclude anything.

Yes, but you even said something like, even what I am, I don't need to be so conclusive about. Yeah, something like that. No. And so my book will be 'I Am That' (bracket maybe).

It's nice.

It will not say 'Hello' because people love conclusion. I feel that is very good to keep it here in the heart. Like, I've noticed that tendency to try to confirm conceptually this, but seeing this seeming process, I see like that need, that grasping, it feels like it dissolves and may keep dissolving. And yeah, leaves this that you were saying, like this knowing without knowing, or this—that has some mystery in it also. No?

Yes, always mysterious. Knowing without knowing. So beautiful. I'm very happy because finally I feel like I'm able to express with more language, with more clarity, the pointers that came so many years back. What do you know when you know nothing? From God's grace, how it moves, still being, but now it's like it feels more obvious.

Exactly. Very calm.

So now can we rest in that pointer from many years back? If to know even one thing is to know too much, then what do you know when you know nothing?

You love those. You love those. Good. You're the first.

Yeah. No, I try. You know, I really do try. I find really—

If you know you try, then it's not—

Yeah. Okay. But I enjoyed today. Thank you.

That would be to know. No?

Then if you become too conclusive about that point, then the point itself will get in the way.

Sure.

It's a sheer helplessness. It's a sheer innocence. It's a sheer emptiness. It's a sheer not grasping. That point is when the point is not being grasped; otherwise, it can seem like a physical journey. It's not that. These are just analogies we have to use.

Yes. Lightly, lightly. Exactly. Damn it. Then how to contemplate, not to make it into memory or anything that you say? Everything that—see, apply.

Sorry, I'm also a bit—bit high on—

Yes. Yeah. To go back to me. I can't hold it in memory.

There could be, but there's no obvious way.

I know that gift. Yeah. Nothing else. Yeah. I guess, but how do you—but it feels—I don't want it to be just like—I want to be able to contemplate that, but I don't know how.

Contemplate what?

Like, in a sense, just—I just have to accept it as a gift and like move on.

Not move on. Stay. But it's like—it's not like the way you live with it. It's not like that. So, and I—I can't even make it—

No, I'm not getting the point of your problem. Like, now you have been introduced to the holy place. No? You've been taught how to remain, abide, wait, whatever you want to call it. Then I'm saying that—

Somewhere in me, I take it as an experience and I—not like—it's not a—it's not a—it's not something that I can make it happen on the daily every time I'm playing. It's not—

To wait, to remain, there is something that we can do. For the rest of it, which is to go into samadhi state, which is for us to have Atma Darshan, for us to get guidance from God as a living presence, as a living voice telling us things. All these things are then gifted to us over there. This much we can do, or whatever we take ourselves to be, or whatever we take doing to be.

That way, I see. Yes. In memory also, it's not like—it's not—it's not—there's nothing like—I don't know what to remember.

Absolutely. So we cannot rely on our traditional faculties at all now. Our life becomes so heartfelt. Everything just moves from there. So you're shifting homes, basically. That's what's happening.

That's what I—what she said is what I was trying to say. That, I mean, when it's there, you know it's there. But when you—when you have to wait, just have to wait. You don't—you know, if you don't see it, I mean, you know that it's not like—and just be so funny. It's not funny, but it's like so just out of the ordinary.

So out of the ordinary. You can't like make me see that. I can't remember it. I mean, I can't have it. I can't have a memory of it like, you know, like this is what I—

It's so—it makes us so fresh in the sense that it seemed like our older life, using the older faculties alone, was just half-lived. Like a zombie life, as I call it. And then you see that, oh, but the thing is that we can never explain to the mind like, 'What is this new thing?' Even the mind can come right now: 'What are you talking about? What is the new thing? What is the shift? I'm not getting it. What's the big deal? You wait in some dark empty place. That sounds horrible.' You see? So to it, it cannot be explained.

But you like—now you just keep feeling happy. It's like a happy feeling, some—yeah, a longing to just keep staying there. I mean, you just feel that kind of an unsaid happy feeling.

In my foolishness and exuberance, I said 'blame God' today twice. I just want to remind myself and everyone that He is only ever worthy of praise. Hey, good play. Just go through the chat. That's more.