Open and Empty: Attentive but Not Grasping - 26th August 2022

Yeah, it's okay. Attentive... what you're saying is now, now it's related to... yeah, there's nothing. Yeah, just free attention and not grasping. What could we be grasping at? Thoughts, meaning, 'What is this? What is happening?' We feel it's very important to know where we are so that we can figure out where to go. But actually all these tactics and plans are just leading us to a merry-go-round. So when we buy the invitation to the merry-go-round, which is telling you, 'This is what is happening to you,' or even that 'This is what was happening to you,' you're just getting on that merry-go-round and you don't realize that getting on that merry-go-round, you're missing the greatest thing in this universe. You're missing the presence of God itself. And no peace, no joy, nothing phenomenally tasty is worth more than the presence of God. So you don't have to go begging for these morsels. You don't have to go begging for these morsels because the greatest pressure in the universe is already yours.

I don't want anything else like any... any mind or any identification with it at all.

Yes. Do you want peace?

Yes. Yes, just forget about it. I just want it. Just... do you want what is? Go on.

Truth, forget it. Just it to be that way always, just how it is for you. It's a lot. They say, 'I just want this, just want...' You feel like, 'But that's all I want. I just need to be peaceful all the time,' which is contrary to the design of life itself. Consciousness is itself designed life to have all the shades and contrast and colors, everything. They say, 'I just want it to be this way, the way I want it, and that's all I want.' What's wrong in that? Forget about it. What do you want now?

So much analysis and evaluation, but to be in a untouched peaceful space always and never affected by any thoughts.

Yes, okay, very good. So this... I have a garbage can in front of me now. Through this, let's give it, just leave it. It's like you're sitting on a chair and saying, 'I just want to sit on my chair. When will I sit on a chair? When I sat on the chair last week, I was just sitting on a chair.' So this is solving non-existent problem, and this is what suffering looks like. Example here. So this is the one that wants to keep something. You don't have to conclude at all what... what is happening, you see? You may feel that the flute of this conversation is that you will come up with a diagnosis about what is wrong with you, but that's not what I'm saying at all. This is not a doctor's visit, you see? So you go to the doctor and say, 'Doctor, since you know, two days I have these symptoms, my eyes are watering and... but actually a few days back it was very nice.' So then the doctor says, 'Oh my child, seems like you're suffering from a case of something,' and then you feel like, 'Oh, I'm suffering from a case of this, this is what I need to fix.' But I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying fix... but you have a 'but'.

Yeah, it seems as rather than just doing it, it's like talking about doing something rather than just doing it. Like literally not even this, gave this, keep exposing it as it... as you're buying into an idea of what is happening or some evaluation. This exposure... well, there's nothing now.

Okay, not even this. For everyone, you don't know your life situation or anything about yourself in that conceptual way.

Yeah, it tries to bring old why I was getting upset. It will try to use the spiritual way to evaluate what is happening, but even that we don't care about. There's a wanting here maybe that like when it brings stuff, which it will, then try and get reactions that um none of it affects anymore. And if it does, then it just feels like a massive failure.

Ah, so you must leave this definitely. Like you cannot succeed or feel like this because I'm not this thing that succeeds or fails. That's also within that realm of... yes. Are you just communicating using those words or are you believing those words?

No, no, I'm communicating just like maybe I'm confirming, not that I should need to, but sometimes a little reminding kind of shakes something. It feels it helps a bit to like, ah, because you could end up like not knowing, 'Hey, what am I doing? Hang on a minute.'

That's the thing, that's exactly what I want you to become comfortable with. If the mind will focus you, 'But what are you doing? What's happening with you?' No idea. Can you become comfortable with this? What's happening with you right now? There will... where can you go for the answer? Whoa, um... to stay here always. Did that... leave that, because that is the creation of the kitteny doll. When we were growing up we used to have this, these blow-up dolls which had 'punch me' written on them, so then they would bounce up. You would punch them as kids and they would bounce right up. So when you say, 'This is how I want it to be,' or 'This is how I am,' or you make any sort of conclusion in that way, that is just asking for trouble. Remember what you said? To be happy you don't need anything, don't have to investigate anything. Go back.

And I know that, but yes, I want to clarify for everyone that in Satsang when we say contemplate or if we say investigate or notice, we are not talking about coming to any mental conclusions. We are talking about taking the contemplation to your intuition. Just being intuitive about... if you're not being mental, you're being intuitive. So don't mistake any sort of contemplation or inquiry or looking or investigation as if you have to do it with your head. And one final tip is that nothing, nothing in the universe is as serious as the mind makes it out to be. Nothing at all. Even our most terrifying concepts, even the most horrendous ideas, and nothing—they're just ideas. You don't have to understand, you don't have to figure out, you don't have to do anything up. Nothing. Just for a moment it comes when one's maybe unpleasant and it comes past. So it's like a sensation and a thought, it all comes and goes.

It comes and goes. Um, but then there's also another voice like, 'You need to do something while it's coming and going. Remember to put your attention here, do this.' But then that also passes, that's with it too.

Which voice is that? And how will you determine whether you are... whether it's your head or your heart? How will you tell me? You can check.

I'll just check. The heart's not saying anything like... yes, but how would you know that something being said is the heart or the head? Some guidance or some recognition, how would you know? Um, well right now I'm not sure, I can't answer.

So maybe what we should do is all of us should just make a poster out of this or something, like a sketch pen, get a pen and write this. Because the mind will really attack this one, I'll really attack this. And when I say it, of course you'll say I've said it so often. So you know you're not being mental then who you are is apparently... what is the... what is the tool I've given you or the device I've given you to check whether who you are is apparent? You can check whether you are aware now. Yeah? So if you check whether you are aware now and it's apparent that you are, you and awareness are not distinct or not two, are not different, then you're intuitive. And the entirety of life actually flows from there, except it seems like it doesn't flow from there when we are believing our ideas and identifying with our limited thoughts about ourselves.

So live intuitively, then all the explorations, they become a joy. Then it is not a freedom from... from being, you know, we're not running away from suffering and saying, 'Okay, but who am I? Who am I?' I was... I want whatever you see. Once you learn how to live intuitively, if a question is asked which is about the truth, then that question, that contemplation becomes joyful. It is not a pain that I have to now investigate or inquire. That you can only ask questions like 'Who am I?', 'Were you born?', 'Can this come and go?', 'What is love?' All of these questions you can only answer or recognize the answer—if not a verbal answer, you can only recognize intuitively. So tell me what you need to go to the head for? What purpose would you want to go to logic for? For example, what is logical?

Yeah, right. For example, like you cannot do programming from the heart. Try it, you try it.

It obviously comes up. It will come, your mind will come no matter what you're doing. It's not just whether you're programming or writing something on the computer, it will try to make a mark wherever. But if you try to do some programming without the head...

You can only recognize intuitively. So tell me, what do you need to go to the head for? What purpose would you want to go to logic for? For example, what is logical? Yeah, right. For example, like you cannot do programming from the heart. Try it. You try it. It obviously comes up. It will come; your mind will come no matter what you're doing. It's not just whether you're programming or writing something on the computer; it will try to make a mark wherever. But if you try to do some programming without the head, it may seem easier. So these are—so it's good that you're noticing. So then play around with this. Experiment, experiment. You have to write a function that does this, this, and this, and I do it without going to my head. So my feeling is—but you have to validate—but my feeling is that the one that can run the programming of this entire universe has more trouble writing something in Java or C? All sportsmen, all scientists, all everyone has said this: that they go into some sort of zone where they don't have to think anymore. So what they are talking about as a zone is what I'm talking about.

Manager?

Yeah, there is no guarantee of that. No guarantee. It is not—intuition is not you. In fact, you cannot use it for personal benefit. So what do you want to do for the non-existent one?

So I just—to say, it's still like there's someone here that's uncomfortable with thoughts as they come past, as they pass by. There is someone there.

Let's catch this one. Where is that? So there is being now. Are you talking about being? Being is uncomfortable. Nice. Okay. So after being, who was born? Who takes birth after the being? Is there such a one?

It's just thoughts then. Yes, it's just starting to become like this. Like when each one goes past it, then it feels like someone is affected by it, like someone's bothered by it.

By what? What is proposing that you have to fix this problem now? The mind. And you're going to follow? Hmm. Thank you. Let me go to Dale first.

Hello, Father.

Hello, hello. It's been about a year, I think.

Ah, I'm a teacher, so it's only during the summer holidays when I get a chance to—yeah, on a Friday day.

Yeah. So what subject do you teach the children? What is the subject you teach?

Physics.

Physics. Okay, that's nice. I used to look at the school—the school have had some very good results this year. So we're all—after two years of COVID and teacher-assessed grades, it's been lovely that the boys have had a chance to go and actually do exams themselves.

It has been lovely, but we have to do exams. But yes, I can imagine that we say Zoom classes—meeting them really in the physical world is—

Yeah, definitely. The physics being in many ways—yes, it was quite a challenge just doing it all online.

Yeah. Okay, so I've got a few questions if you don't mind. The last three days I've had lots of time to reflect on this because I've been painting the fence in the garden, and quite a bit of that time I've been listening to your 2022 satsangs. And I think the thing that's been very powerful has been your prompts of saying to yourself, "Am I aware now?" and sort of sitting in that space and then making it more clear to see thoughts. Yes, I found that very good. And I think one thing that sort of occurred is that in the past when I used to hear the phrase "don't believe your next thought," that was a bit weird for me because, in my opinion, certainly there are many thoughts that crop up that are quite destructive. It's fairly easy to not believe those when you think, "Well, clearly I was not in the wrong thinking this, that, and the other." The thing that a little bit of an insight that's come for me over the last few days is that it's not really that helpful believing what you think of as good or positive thoughts also. Yes, in that, you know, "this was justified" or "that was justified," because there clearly are thoughts that crop up that do relate quite well to certain things that have happened in the phenomenal world. So I don't know, if I go and play cricket with my team and I do a stupid shot and get bowled out for a duck and I think, "What a bloody idiot, I clearly didn't follow the trajectory of that ball," that's true. I am being an idiot for not following the trajectory of that. So it's true in the sense of it relates to something in the phenomenal world. But the idea that has kind of just occurred is that when you say "don't believe your next thought," thoughts in general, phenomenal world and everything, the whole shebang is not true in that the only thing that's true is the place from which you observe everything. Kind of on the right track?

Okay, let's pause here for a moment. This is very good. I feel like we can start here. So the idea that there are some thoughts which can fairly accurately describe the state of the phenomenal world, you see, without even needing a negation of the entirety of phenomena, you see. So what I'm hearing is that you're saying that of course it's not true because ultimately the entirety of phenomena we cannot—either from physics or from spirituality—we, or at least we can completely say that it is not how we are thinking it is, you see. But now let's explore something even subtler than that. Let's say that, okay, we are not negating the whole of the phenomenal perception, you see. We are just questioning a thought's ability to describe anything in phenomena accurately, you see. So I have often been doing this experiment saying, "Okay, so what is this?" Oh, you are asking me questions, sorry. Yeah. And you may say that that is a very accurate phenomenal description, you see. Another may say, "Oh, Ananta is blessing everyone," you see. Another may say, "He's just telling everyone to stop," see. Another may say whatever, you see. And some may call it hand, some may call it something else. I don't know what everyone is perceiving anyway. But not even one moment of our phenomenal perception can be accurately represented in a thought pattern. So when you say, "I missed the trajectory of the ball and I was an idiot," you see, there's no way to actually confirm that, you see. I know you said it half in jest, but there's no way actually to confirm. Maybe it was pure grace for the next batter who had to come, or the bowler needed really to take that wicket at that point of time, you see. So grace was making sure that his confidence or self-esteem got boosted or whatever. We are not going down that path, which is the rabbit hole which I'm trying to avoid, but I'm just saying that we don't know. We don't know even that which seems like the most obvious thing. Without getting into any physics or metaphysics of any sort, without any negation of the phenomenal perception being perceived as accurately as it is or is not actually there, without even getting to any of that, we cannot actually take those determinations to be true because we don't know it for a fact. And I find us unable to determine even one moment of the taste of phenomena, you see, conceptually. Like I often say, what is this? So what is this? You may say that, "Oh, but I can say this is satsang and there's a teacher, then there are disciples," you see. But it does not accurately reflect this movement because there's so much light here, there's so much beauty here, there's so much other. So our thought version is like a cave drawing compared to the perception of what is perceived, at best. Not even that, really. So now the thing is that we may end up then saying that, "Okay, cave drawing or kindergarten coloring book, but at least it is something. It is better than nothing." But examine that. The alternative is no knowledge. Examine whether it is true that the alternative is no knowledge. See, whatever you needed to know in the experience of playing that cricket ball was already assimilated, you see, in the perception of it. The notion later that "I'm such an idiot" does not really help in any way. It does not really help in any way. Just like I keep using this example over and over—I need to find a new one—but just like I don't have to determine that this is a glass and there is water in it and then I need hydration and all of that. I don't need to know any of that, and yet the drinking of the water can happen. So in the perception, whatever intelligence needs to be conveyed is already there. So as we return to the innocence—and like Jesus said, "Only the children will enter the kingdom of heaven"—this is the innocence that he is talking about. That even an infant child who is just born can drink, can drink the mother's milk without having to understand, "This is mother, this is milk, I would need for nutrition and growth." All of that can happen. And we were just saying, in fact, that a friend here who was in satsang, he said his brother is a very eminent kidney surgeon and he says that whenever the most difficult cases—you see, I don't know how to deal with them, but the answer comes from somewhere. So our life is not based on our conceptual determinations of what is going on. And in fact, our determinations are so off the mark. And in fact, is the physicist also for confirming that so much? Is he saying that they are so off the mark? Because this is according to the physicists: we are in the realm of probability. So in quantum physics, we can't really say there is a computer, there is something; we can just say there's an X probability that something is there or not. Anyway, that's not something that's my expertise. But really, what is the way in which we can determine? And more importantly, is there a way, is there a need for us to determine? Is there not a natural intelligence which is already unfolding?

So any thought occurring, even if it's occurring in the present moment, is very much a watered-down perception of truth? Yes. And it's kind of just there to, I don't know, try and give the mind a way of attempting to understand what's going on. Because all, I suppose, all thoughts really are, they're layered around the senses. Because a lot of thought is language. Not all thought is language, though. Often thoughts are fleeting visual representations of something that often then, if it's something unpleasant, often then can result in emotional triggers and then sometimes following on from that, yeah, commentary. All of this is just a kind of smoke screen produced by—

So I'll make it easy, right? You just have to worry about the language thoughts. You don't—in the scope of what we call the mind, you see, and I said the mind is a bundle of thoughts. So if we localize it to just the thoughts in the language that we are accustomed to, then that much is enough. Don't worry about what visuals come, when some memory comes, you see, what all of that is, some sensation along comes along with that. Now you notice that without the thought itself, you will not be able to make a causative relationship, you see, which is saying, "Okay, now this thought came of a bad fight I had with my partner a few years back, and then the sensation came, you see, because I remembered that thing." So then just like the yoga version where the bird flies, it lands on the branch of the coconut tree and the coconut falls, and the sages told us that it is the mind that makes the connective tissue between the two events. Actually, the cause of both is consciousness itself, you see. That is the way we step out of time. Otherwise, we get stuck in the linearity of time which will say, "Okay, this happened, then because of that this happened, and then that happened," and all of our life can seem like it is a linear flow. But actually, it is not like that at all.

Another thing that's quite interesting is that at the moment, I very much have to—well, every now and then I'm reminded of that—I don't like calling it a technique, but I don't know what quite else to call it—but technique of saying to yourself internally, "Who am I?" It then tends to put myself in this state where I'm more aware that thoughts are something that I'm observing. Yeah, this is all—so I don't identify, whatever, whether it's a good thought or bad thoughts.

Another thing that's quite interesting is that at the moment, I very much have to—well, every now and then I'm reminded of that—I don't like calling it a technique, but I don't know what quite else to call it—but the technique of saying to yourself internally, 'Who am I?' It then tends to put myself in this state where I'm more aware that thoughts are something that I'm observing. Yeah, this is all so I don't identify, whether it's a good thought or bad thoughts. And like that, over the last three days, I've maybe had slightly longer extended periods of time. It feels as though I'm observing from this place without forgetting again and almost going back into identifying with form and phenomena. But I'm pretty sure when I go back to school next week, I mean in a classroom environment and there's so many other things requiring my attention, that I'm sort of going to be lost in phenomena. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing; I love my job, so it's glorious and the boys are wonderful. So it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a very different experience when you're just sort of sat painting a fence. It's very easy to every now and then, you know, this thing crops up because there's not really much—the mind's not doing much anyway. And I don't even know whether it's the mind that triggers saying to yourself, 'Who am I?' even if I don't necessarily verbally say that, and then you think, 'Ah, cool, I'm back in this intuitive inside space,' whatever that is. But I do think when I'm working and during the lesson, it's probably unlikely—from experience anyway—it's unlikely that this will occur to me. And maybe I've been thinking about some of these things on the train on the way into London and on the way back, but kind of what's occurred between 8:30 and 4:00 o'clock, it's been, you know, work as usual. Yeah, not that that's a bad thing, but that's just something that occurred to me. That the experience that is currently happening here when I'm painting a fence, and almost like having the ability to experience this observing these thoughts from what feels like a detached space in a way, although that—

Okay, let me see if this is not wrong as well. If you can simplify this. So now, you love your job. And what percentage of the time when you're taking a class where you feel like you're so involved in phenomena, how often have you suffered in those situations?

Quite a lot, I think, because I'm either working through the lesson or I'm taking questions or asking questions—

Have you experienced suffering in those situations?

No, no, no, no. I'm not saying I'm experiencing suffering. It's just that—

Yeah, so just to make it simple, don't worry about it at all. Just be like that. A worldly entity like that who loves to teach, it's completely fine. So we don't have to fix something where we've never experienced suffering because of that. You don't have to explore, we don't have to worry when we are full of enthusiasm and joy and full-on with something. Yeah, and that's it. There is no 'me' actually operating there, although the mind may come and say, 'But this is different from that,' like when you're painting the fence. Yeah, the mind will come and say, 'But that is so much like this and that is so much like that.' You see, both are fine in the tasting of life. You see, it's not about trying to control attention or to perceive something differently in some way. It is just a question of what you're taking yourself to be. It's just a question of what you are believing yourself to be now. As a teacher, although your words may come out as if you are a teacher, is there a lot of self-referencing going on as if it feels like you're taking yourself to be your body-mind? No. So is that still intuitive? Yes. Acting through the body-mind then? Yes, fully. When you're full on, you're fully intuitive. That's cool.

There's a couple of other things. I'm sorry to use—

Absolutely no, this is good because I only get a chance once a year. I'm trying to get my screen time as much as possible.

The other thing I was thinking is, I remember the last time we had this discussion, and it was when I was asking you about the difference of saying, 'Are you aware now?' and 'Can you stop being?' And so you were—because I think I was saying that I always thought the 'I am' and the sense of being was it, and you were discussing that there's a place beyond that where even the being can be observed. I still think for me, when I say, 'Are you aware now?' or 'Can you stop being?' it seems that it produces the same effect. Yes. And I'm wondering whether or not it feels like the baseline awareness, rather than the baseline awareness observing an apparent being, kind of feels like this: whichever one of those questions I ask myself, it feels like the same thing. I don't feel like I can—not that it's again, that's not a problem, it's just—yes, I mean, but it's not an issue, but to me, I don't feel like there's a difference between the two.

Yes. So 'Can you stop being?' and 'Are you aware now?' they sound like the same question to you? They seem to produce the same response? Okay, let's try now. Try to stop being. Yeah, won't be. Yes. Notice what you notice. And are you aware? Let's do this another way. So, try to stop being. And have you stopped being? No. So that which is aware of this being, which is—your question is beautiful because it's very subtle, isn't it? So beingness is what I call primordial. Oh, it's at the cusp of phenomena and non-phenomena. You see that? So in India, it's called the primordial vibration, Om. See, 'I am' is called Om. So that primordial vibration, you see, is it phenomenal or is it non-phenomenal? It's a bit of both, therefore neither. So this being, when I say, 'Can you stop being?' like 'I am, I am,' then notice that this 'I' is very—even of 'Aham.' Another way I could ask this question is that if both were the same, then you would not be able to say that 'I woke up at 7:30 this morning.' You see, because what woke up? I woke up. We don't just say the world woke up. You say, 'I woke up.' Yeah, that 'I' that woke up was the sense of being. And where does it rest? Within awareness itself. So it's beautiful contemplation. So you don't have to make it like, if I don't find this out, then you are fully—

I think what you said to me last time, or what we were discussing, was the fact that conventional attention, when it searches inwards on itself, it can kind of get to the sense of being but not go beyond that. So I've played with that a little bit, and when I do do that in this sense, I tend to—it seems to produce this almost a form or empty space or some apparent almost like a shadow version of myself, yes, when it gets to that. But of course, I'm aware of that. So the closest I can get to the sense of there being a being is that.

Yeah, so one of the things that may be causing a bit of confusion is the production of effect. Let's examine whether when we ask something like, 'Am I aware now?' do we have a phenomenal effect that we have to observe and then confirm that 'I am aware'? No. It's very strange. It's very strange when you properly hear it. Of course, you can—if there's other things going on and you said to me, 'Are you aware now?' 'Oh yes,' that's probably the mind just saying 'yeah' because I've heard the question before. But in a situation like this, when you're properly attentive to the question, then you are taken to a very interesting new place. Yes. Let's all experiment with this. I feel like this is a cool one. So just keep your attention on this hand and look at the question, 'Am I aware now?' but don't change your attention at all. So that's experiment one. Confirmation will be apparent that even if attention is fully on the hand and the long nails which I need to cut, then in spite of all of that, it's simple, effortless to answer, 'Am I aware now?' Now do the other thing. Keep your attention fully on this hand and try to stop being. Or let's do something else—it doesn't have to be my hand, maybe the computer or whatever you see in front of you. Is there a difference? Can you see the subtleties of beingness? Yeah, it's essentially some movement of attention, and you will find that the perception starts to become a bit blurry. Well, for the first question, with your entirety of your attention being on an objective scene, it doesn't make a difference to that. But just to try to stop being, or just notice your 'am-ness,' notice your beingness, you will see that a little bit. That's why it's very subtle. So that is why I see that this being is on the cusp of phenomena and non-phenomena, but awareness is beyond. So before 'I am,' it's completely beyond all phenomena, therefore needing no attention at all. And for beingness—of course, everything that you perceive is being, that's a different conversation—we are talking about noticing this which is experienced as a presence, you see. But of course, when we look, we notice that the presence actually never stops. That's a different experiment. But here, when we are talking about 'try to stop being,' you notice that heart, or whatever term you want just for that, you see, which is the pulsating life for your very existence, you see, which most experience in a localized way. And that is experienced in a localized way with attention. This awareness is independent of even that play of attention. We're traversing some very subtle—thank you for these questions. Yeah, very nice.

If the 'Am I aware now?' really works, then you kind of—I don't need to do the 'Can I stop being?' That kind of doesn't, for some reason at the moment, doesn't work so well for me.

Yes. Now, does this mean we have to do something about that? Is what's right. Does this mean we have to do something about that one? Yeah, because if it starts like that for everyone, that 'I want to use this so that it becomes better for me, and I want to use this because this works better and this does not work so well, you see, for me.' But in our case, we are noticing that this 'me' itself is mythical. So how can we make these discoveries in service to the non-existent one? And this question can sort of pull the rug from under our feet in some way because then we're just like, 'Okay, it was going so well, you know, and I was figuring out what I can do and what works best for me, but now he's saying which me?' So that sort of brings us into some—because you're a physicist—some conundrum.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's identification going on with the 53-year-old male who's trying to work out the difference between these things.

So empty of them. Empty. The truth is not here to solve the problems. And what will happen is that if we continue on that track—that's why I have to point it out pretty strongly—is that if it continues like that, then what will happen is that you make spiritual conclusions which will serve only the spiritual ego eventually. So I want to pull the rug out from under the ego's feet immediately before there's any chance that that gets better. Yeah, cool. Thank you.

One very final question, if that's okay?

We'll continue on this one for just a moment. Because then what will happen is then that—okay, so then the question will be, 'So okay, now everything, all my spirituality was so that I could help this me. I wanted to make it better for me. I wanted to get freedom. I wanted this one. Now he's saying don't bother with the me, then what am I supposed to do? Then what am I supposed to do?' So, open and empty, which means free attention with no grasping. Just you can hold on to that. Any judgment about whether this is working for me, not working for me, better for me, and open and empty. I don't mean only open and empty can do it; even if you're asking 'Am I aware now?' or 'Who am I?' you see, it's completely fine. But then when you ask 'Who am I?' and you come to an instant recognition of who you are, then notice that the mind loves—

Then what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? So, open and empty, which means free attention with no grasping. Just you can hold on to that. Any judgment about whether this is working for me, not working for me, better from universe for me—and open and empty. I don't mean only open and empty can do it even if you're asking 'Am I aware now?' or 'Who am I?' You see, it's completely fine. But then when you ask 'Who am I?' and you come to an instant recognition of who you are, then notice that the mind loves to participate in this party and say, 'Hey, this works really well for me.' But that 'me' was important; in that instant, it was not there. But it instantly makes a comeback and says, 'Yeah, this is very good. Well done, Dale. This works really well for me,' you know? So, these conclusions you have to avoid buying.

So, what happens to you when you do, when you ask this question versus this question versus that question? I don't know, unless my heart is telling me. I don't know. You could ask me, 'Okay, you've been sharing satsang for so long now, which pointing would work the best?' I don't know, you see. You may then say, 'Okay, which pointing do you feel would be helpful to me at this point?' So then I would say, 'Okay, intuitively I feel something.' You know that? So, there's a difference in the two things. See, one is to make a categorization or better and worse in our head, and the other is just to be moment to moment with our heart and soul. I don't really know here, you see. But I'm happy to be headless and allow my heart to use this mouth in any way, or to use the same instrument in any way to express.

So, sometimes I may say in satsang, 'What do you know when you know nothing?' is my highest pointing. Or 'Don't believe your next thought' is my highest. After everything I'm saying, I could say is my highest question. So, just how it is showing up in that moment, my heart. And we don't even need to make conclusions about, 'Okay, audience, that needed to hear it,' or you know, those are nice conclusions and lead to some devotion and some reassurance that grace is taking care of everything. But I feel like we are mature enough at this point not to even need that reassurance to come, just to trust. Okay, my heart is using the mouth in this way, so we can trust that.

So, what is the highest, what is the best pointing that works for you? 'Am I aware now?' Yeah, yes. And if that came from the heart, that's fine. But just make sure it doesn't come from any evaluated tendency in the head. So, otherwise, then it can become like a spiritual treadmill that you're running on, and we're trying to—'Oh, when I ask myself "Am I aware now?" then this happened, but when I ask "Who am I?" then this happens. I feel that A is better than B.' Therefore, we, you know, might be too much of an equation about you. So, what is the pointing that's best for you? Nobody knows. It is all dependent moment to moment. All the seeding is there now. See, all the seeding is there now, and allow your heart to grow the plants out of that seeding in the way that requires. Don't conceptually predetermine that 'This is my game plan now, this is my roadmap now.' That can be a tough one because initially it may feel like it's so good I came up, because then I have a game plan, a roadmap as to what to do, which will take me to ultimate satisfaction. But you know, that whole thing is, it could be just troublesome in the sense that what I'm introducing you to is the pathless path. So, if you have, if you're able to determine that these are the steps that I need to take to climb the mountain, then we need to demolish.

Yeah, there is this worry that part of the spiritual seeker is hoping that at some point in the future I don't need to ask 'Am I aware now?' to feel as though I'm...

Yes, yes, very good. Good spot. It's very good to spot that. So, remember that the spiritual seeker—the future of the best spiritual seeker is the spiritual ego. The future of the best spiritual seeker is the spiritual ego only. The future of empty is freedom. And this has happened so often in satsang—I know every satsang that I know about, actually, but here also in the last ten years—so often that the pointings have been heard, the spiritual experiences have been had, but what that has led to in many cases has been a person who now seems to understand spirituality and not the birth of the sage, see? So, I'm trying to preempt any of that trouble before it happens because we don't want an expert on spirituality. The world has enough of those. And we don't want somebody who just wants to use God to help themselves. So, it is not about that. Just empty. 'What am I meant to do?' It will show up in my heart, you see. If I'm being headless now, if it seems like there is trouble going to the heart, then use the point. So, this is very, very subtle.

So, on one hand, don't allow your mind to take hold of this journey. On the other hand, don't let your mind get a hold of and say, 'So don't attach to any pointer,' see? So, that which is working, allow that to work. Allow that to work, but don't make a thing out of it in your head. So, the answer will be revealed to you when you are headless. But if the headless itself is in trouble, then use the pointer that works to make you headless. It's a bit rounded now, well aware of that. It's just like if you read 'Be As You Are,' then Bhagavan has told us right here that the only thing you need to do is be rid of all the false, all the conditions, all the ignorance, you see. Now the disciple says, 'Okay, now you say often that that is the only thing we need to do. Now, what do I need to do to do that?' I will ask you to do that, and then Bhagavan says what it already is. So, you see, it already is. So then the questioning mind will say, 'Then what was the need to say the first thing?' No, it is very important to say the first thing because you need to do that. 'How can I do that?' You see, it is not something that the mind can grasp. In fact, the mind may hate this also and say, 'Yeah, I was so clear.' But remember that the zone of clarity is the head, it's not the heart. The zone where the opposite of clarity and confusion is the head. There is no confusion in the heart, ever. So, if your head is fully complete, then that is better maybe than if I left you with a clear conceptual plan about how you can make it.

Did you used to say conclusion, confusion?

Exactly. Because you think, 'I've got it, I've got it, I've got it. Oh, I haven't got it.' The conclusions of today are the confusions of tomorrow. Yeah, they can have illusion, confusion, confusion.

Yeah, yeah. You were talking to a guy the other day and it so resonated with me as well that he was—I was listening to it so I couldn't really see—he was going right now, 'This is it.' In his head he's going, 'Yeah, that's it. That's what I've got to do.' A bit later, 'No, this is it.' And I've been doing that for years. 'Yep, that's it. No, this bit of video, that's it. That's made the difference.' And then a bit later, 'Now this is it.' Then so many times, dozens of times, I've gone, 'Yeah, I think I've got it.' It was because we're used to that linear progress. Yeah, used to going from grade one to grade two to grade three, level one to level two to level three. So what happens is that it feels comforting to go from one branch to the other, or going from one step of the ladder to the next step. Now when someone comes and says, 'No branch for you...'

Yeah, yeah. So this is, if there's an attempt from here, the attempt is to make the sangha comfortable with having no branch. 'What is your spiritual practice?' 'I don't know.' Somebody—I was telling a friend the other day that when people ask me in social situations, 'So what is it that you do?' you see, then sometimes I say, if I feel comfortable, then I say, 'Okay, I'm a spiritual teacher.' Then when they say, 'So what do you teach?' So if I don't know what I'm teaching, then as students who are coming to me, then you definitely don't know what I'm teaching.

Yeah, yeah. That is true. It's, you kind of know it's coming from the head, but there are certain family members who would straight away be, 'Oh, what a load of mumbo jumbo.' Never admit to coming to satsang because it's just not worth the hassle. Yes, they'll be going, 'Oh, what a load of rubbish,' and then I would never hear the end of it. Every gathering would bring it up, start calling me Buddha or something. Oh, I don't see the point in mentioning it because they would just—that would just be some silly comments for the rest of my life.

So, let me tell you something. So, if my mother calls me and it's 9:30 in the night—so this happens with everyone, you know, because we just want the hassle of the judgment saying, you know, 'You're neglecting your family' and all of that stuff. Yeah, it's fun, wonderful. How many of us here in this room feel a bit like guilty to tell our parents and our family, you know, actually? Yeah, so he can see that. And also, there was somebody who used to come here, who still comes actually, he may be in the zoom. So his wife used to not mind him going to the pub, you see, but if he said he went to satsang, she would get more upset.

She had—very true. I've got a really good friend and I think he saw that I commented on one Facebook group and then he—for that we went, we're going for a lovely walk in the woods and then the next thirty minutes he bent my ear talking about this Osho documentary and, 'It's all occult and this and that the other.' Yes, thinking, 'Oh, it's just not worth it. It's not worth trying.' I tried to explain what it was and why I'm interested in consciousness and things but, yeah, I think he was quite blinkered and it was malicious.

It is how most of our friends and family reacts to this. And actually, at some level, I appreciate their care, that at least they're concerned, they're worried whether they're joining some cult and you know, what's going on. It's fine. And before I got on this, all of this, I was an atheist. So if some one of my friends said, 'I'm going to satsang where there's a strange man called saying all of this very absurd stuff,' then I'd also tell them, 'Be careful. I don't know. Well, what is it you're doing?' You know, I can understand. They can understand that's true. Don't say, just don't give out your bank account details. Exactly, exactly. That's the golden rule.

Okay, now, somebody just before they'll go get this SWIFT number. You might ask one very, very final one? No, no, don't worry. Yeah, what it was is that up to about two weeks ago I had a terrible sort of trapped nerve in the neck and the back. So like a physical pain that was fairly consistent for about six or seven months on. Tried chiropractors and osteopaths at great expense and nothing really worked. And obviously this is all observable and you're aware that this is in the realm of phenomena and the body-mind, but because it's so pervasive and it constantly grabs attention, it's very difficult to know what to do about it. And there's kind of nothing you can do about it. But it's, obviously you can observe all the other things around you and your attention can sometimes choose to go to this or go to that or go to the other. But when you get these very sharp pains as soon as you move and immediately floods attention, conscious attention is just on this thing and whatever the hell pain is. And my wife's a doctor and she says we don't really understand what the hell pain is, but whatever it is, it's kind of unpleasant. And even sort of observing it from a detached space, it is, it's challenging. So I remember over these six or seven months trying to treat it as just another perception. And why is it that conscious attention is flooded so much with this? If I wasn't spiritual at all and I hadn't come to any satsangs or listened to anything, I'm pretty sure I would have been depressed as hell from it, and I wasn't. But it's still—here we are again with this horrible pain. And I struggled sleeping sometimes as well with it. So you know, at some point...

From a detached space, it is challenging. I remember over these six or seven months trying to treat it as just another perception. Why is it that conscious attention is flooded so much with this? If I wasn't spiritual at all and I hadn't come to any satsangs or listened to anything, I'm pretty sure I would have been depressed as hell from it, and I wasn't. But it's still here; we are again with this horrible pain. I struggled sleeping sometimes as well with it. So, you know, at some point all of us are going to have physical pains, or may or may not have done in the past. I just thought I'd mention that because it's one part of perception that is not so easy to kind of shrug off. If it's there, it's there, it's there—the shooting pains very frequently. Thank you.

Another great, great question. I feel like these are very, very good questions. The answer to this one is going to again be a little bit subtle, so let's see how the expression comes out. Everyone knows—I feel like everyone in spirituality knows, and doctors also, I feel, will say—that accepted pain feels easier to handle than pain which is resisted. Now, there's a trick in that, which is that we say, 'Okay, I'm going to accept my pain so that then it can go away,' you see? And actually, as you see that for the last six or seven months, I have had this pain in my shoulder, and now there'll be a shooting pain here. It's much, much better now where I can lift it easily to this point, but if I take it further, then there's a slight change of pain still. So, there's a somewhat childish really help with the treatment of this with some needles and things like this.

But anyway, coming back to what you're saying, we can't fool acceptance, you know? Just like everyone knows that what we resist persists. So then I want the ego to go, so I will just not resist it; I will love it to death. But the 'to' to that part actually puts the resistance in the thing. They say, 'Oh, I love my conditioning so much, I love my limitations so much, there's no problem, I love it.' But all of that would be fine and accepting except that we don't do it with full integrity because actually we're doing it so that it dies. So, the acceptance of pain, because it has the tail of saying, 'Okay, I'm accepting it so that it dies,' then does not become a full acceptance. So that's something to notice as well.

If we can bring ourselves to be in the moment without any outcomes of what that turns out to be, then that is, of course—that is like Master Bankei said: all problems are perfectly resolved. That is the one pill I have for all problems, which by the way does not mean that we cannot get external treatment. I'm just talking about our inner attitude of openness, yeah? Often, you can tell your children or you can tell a doctor, 'This is what's happening,' you see? That might emerge just very organic, and some treatment can be taken. This is very important for everyone. So when we talk about acceptance, we're not talking about the particular position the body takes; it is inwardly not taking a position. I'm not saying, 'Oh, you have pain in your shoulder, just accept it, sit in.' I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying inwardly be as open and as empty as possible. And that also includes that if your attention is fixated on something, let it be fixated on something. What I'm sharing is all to do with identification and belief rather than where attention goes. Thank you, thank you. Very good question. Lovely talking to you again. We should make it a rule we can talk to everyone once a year because then... thank you very much.

Just quickly catch up with the chat as well. One question is: 'Father, what exactly do you mean just that itself?' So what exactly do I mean by... okay, let's progress. 'What exactly do you mean when you say as consciousness anything is possible?' I mean that all limitations are meant—see, all boundaries, all limitations. Practice some Zen koans. Next one: 'Father, if awareness and truth is exactly the same even when we believe our thoughts and go to our head, then why is it important to let go of our heads?' That you have to say—that you have to say in a way that in the design of this game, somewhere God made an alarm clock for itself. God made an alarm clock for itself in the form of suffering.

So, you just design the place so... and you see, it's not true. This explanation is just helpful to the intellect to take this question away. So if this question has abide, then just imagine it such that God designed this place so compellingly, so well, that even God got confused, you see? And but the good thing is God realized that the play is so compelling that I could get confused, you see? So I need an alarm clock in this play. So I will design as part of the play this suffering, you see, in the human condition, so that when I take myself too much to be a human, then the suffering will happen and I will start looking for the greater Self—no self with no limitation, not the limited self.

So it is part of the design that the delusion part is enjoyed by consciousness and the stepping out of delusion part is also enjoyed by consciousness in this way where, in actuality, nothing has ever happened. But the movie is so compelling. Imagine you went to a movie that did not end; it just gives you some breaks, like deep sleep state. So it just did not end. You wake up, the movie is so well designed, and after a while you're just like, 'I am this.' But as the director is projecting this movie, then the director also made sure that God does not forget God's magnificence forever. Just playing with this in no time actually, like this. But it's not the truth. It's not the truth, but I'm saying there's nothing in reality has ever happened. Even that actually is not the truth; that is beyond all this is where we meet as one in Atma.

So I hope the explanation does the job of deconstructing the question, which is the best that any explanation can do. And if I was going too fast, I know you are a very sweet and devoted boy, so you can watch the recording. Watch this recording. So next one says: 'Dear Anantaji, how to best detach and at the same time help my mother? Yes, she has had a burnout for years and got a brain bleeding in January this year. I have been with her every day since then while at the same time managing her medical clinic. She's very emotionally unstable, which makes it challenging sometimes to arrange practical things with her, for her clinic, and things that need to be done in her living situation and so on.'

Yes, it can seem a bit difficult, especially when someone very close to us is going through some of these things and mind attacks and emotional trauma and all of this. But actually, I would say the best help we can give is when we are empty. But one thing I say before I say that too strongly is that in these situations, there will be times where the mind will attack you and it sort of feels contagious, as his mind is contagious. So when it attacks and it feels true, don't beat yourself up over it. Be loving towards yourself as well. Don't beat yourself up over it. Don't say that Ananta said the best way I can help my mother is to be empty. That's fine, but that instruction starts then. The instruction starts then; it does not apply to the past because what we do with it in the past is beat ourselves up about it and become feel guilty and say, 'I'm not doing a good job as a caretaker, not being compassionate enough.'

So, how to best detach and at the same time help my mother? Just be as open and empty as possible and be forgiving—as forgiving about yourself and your mother as possible. And I'm not saying hundred percent in these circumstances at all; don't have to worry about hundred percent something. If you're getting angry at times, you say, 'I don't want to do this anymore, she doesn't listen.' Sometimes you get frustrated as well; that's completely fine. It's okay. Start open and empty, but the instruction starts the moment you remember it, see? Not in the times where you're just like, 'There's so much going on,' and the mind attacks. There's no point in beating ourselves up about the past and saying, 'I should have followed the instruction, why am I not open enough?' None of that. It's just like when it comes to you to be open and empty, let it come to you like this is the first time you heard, you see? This is for everyone. Let it come to you like this is fresh and the first time you're hearing it. So it starts now. You have no baggage with it, you have no history with it, you have no progress with it. You're not saying, 'I'm doing so well, yesterday I was so good and today I'm so bad at it.' None of that is important. It's like the game starts now. And that's true for any spiritual point—any spiritual point. Just fresh, just now. All my love to both of you and may Satguru's grace bless this situation fully. Most graceful outcome.

Thank you. 'Father, does the unfolding of life depend on whether one operates out of intuition or from mental digestion?' This is a trick question which will have a trick answer. So what will you do with the answer to this? Will you give it to your intuition or to the mind? Next one says: 'Could you please throw some light on why the forgetfulness is so immersive?' Forgetfulness—well, again I have to give a non-true answer, but let's see if it helps to deconstruct the question. And maybe my saying that it will start may not always have the... we can never determine these things. We can never determine these things. Consciousness is all there is, therefore it will play with all flavors—in some flavors where forgetfulness is not so immersive, and in some expressions where consciousness, it seems that forgetfulness seems so. It's okay; we can't judge ourselves based on that. We can't feel like there's something wrong or the lack of devotion or something is happening because of that.

In fact, we cannot keep the forgetfulness more by trying to understand more about the forgetfulness. Like many years ago I told you that you cannot come to manonasa by thinking about it. So if you dwell on the forgetfulness of the truth, that does not eat the truthiness. So when you have a moment where you open like this, don't dwell on what is wrong; dive into God whose presence is apparent. And I know in my heart that in those moments, God's presence is abundant. Next one: 'Father, time and again I've noticed that when the phenomenal world is going my way, I totally get attached to it, yes, and fully in the body-mind. And when the phenomenal world is chaotic and suffering arises, I am reminded of spirituality. Is there a way to be detached even when this phenomenal world is all happy-happy?'

This is the perennial thing. In a way, it's part of the design. Nobody remembers God when times are good, but if there are those who remember God when times are good, then that can never be bad—which by the way is never talking about an external circumstance. So what would be true? Remember it at this point; it would be a heart understanding that all is great. So my inclusion whenever I catch any of you in satsang, because I don't know when life will start going quote-unquote 'my way.' So what we think 'my way' would actually be opposed to us in that way, opposed to our reality, going more towards unreality. I don't know when that is going to happen. So that's why I keep feeding you the medicine: open and empty. Am I aware now? Use this opportunity not to again beat yourself up and try to understand why these things happen, but take a deep dive. Dive into your presence, take a deep dive, dive into God, and recognize who is aware of that. That is the best gift you can give to the future one who may or may not get deluded. That's the best—not the answer, this deep dive is the best. Okay, then next one says... the one I said whatever the answer we received, that one says the answer...

Giving you the medicine: open and empty. Am I aware now? So use this opportunity not to again beat yourself up and try to understand why these things happen, but take a deep dive into your presence. Take a deep dive into God and recognize who is aware of that. That is the best gift you can give to the future one who may or may not get deluded. That's the best—not the answer. This deep dive is the best. Okay, then next one says, whatever the answer we received, that one says the answer will probably be received in intuition and would also probably motivate one to move towards intuition. Full blessing, full motivation, full inspiration, full stick, full carrot—everything that is here is to motivate you to go to your heart. Let's see if Marlena still wants to come. Hey.

Yes. Sometimes it feels like I'm happy like on the inside, but sometimes my daughter tells me that that's just the mind. Sometimes—who tells you? Mama, yeah, that's right. But I'm not... how do I check if it's not?

Okay, so you said that sometimes it just feels like I'm so happy on the inside. Is it when you're doing naughty things?

No, I'm not doing anything. I guess when I'm happy, I don't know.

Yes, and you just feel very open? You just feel very relaxed at that time? Is it how it is?

Yeah, yeah. When you tell Mama then... so tell her, what would you tell her? Show me, like tell me, how are you a teller? Well, she and I just feel happy and she sees me smiling and I guess she tells me that that's the mind. So being happy, yeah, I kind of am... I feel like it's true and that happiness, but it's not the... I'm not the happiness, I'm the one who's still aware of the happiness. My mom tells me that's the mind and I don't know how to like check, or should I check, or should I... I don't know what to do.

Because at your age, you just relax. Just chill out. Chill out. And then after a few years, if we need to do some of this and you need to check whether it is the mind or something, I'm there. I'm not going anywhere. Just when you're happy, be happy. Don't get into any sort of mental thing about trying to understand 'is this the mind?' Just be.

Thank you. And also when I feel kind of aware, I guess, and Mom asks me if I'm aware now, it doesn't feel like I'm doing to be aware now and just...

Exactly, absolutely. No doing, no effort is needed at all. So that's okay, not to feel like I'm doing anything? Yes, yes. In fact, then it is not the true insight. It has to be before the sound of the click. How much effort can you do before the click?

I don't really understand that questions.

It's completely fine. Now you don't have to think about whether it is effortless or not. So my main pointing to you today: just relax, have fun, play with your friends, play with Anna.

Thank you. Yes, very happy to hear your voice. Thank you. Hello, Father. Can you hear my voice clear?

Yes, yes.

I really don't have anything very strong to say out for now. The last time we talked about this panic according to the heart and the narrative, and your pointing was if you stay empty and open, then I promise you that it will not have so much power. As I understood the world, last three days has been... something is saying it's very personal, but I want to put it out here because I feel it's very beautiful. The tears are of joy in a way. This Neem Karoli Baba's presence has been grabbing me very strongly. I don't know, it's not a doing, but it's just happening that way.

Yeah, thank you. That's very good.

And I think last year I was talking about Hanuman Chalisa and you said, 'Could you recite it?' This wave is coming back. And as a kid, I had dreams about Hanuman Ji. Yes, children in India, you know, you go for prasad and yes, very famous Hanuman Ji having the mountain in his hand and flying. That image came to me and I don't know if that... so this sense of seva is arising in my heart to go to India and open up a bhandara, something like this is happening, to feed the people. And this is a wave. And right now my attention is not going on the question like seer and who's watching, not aware. So I want to put this out so if this is... I'm putting out because there's a sense that I might not be going astray from the path, something like that.

You cannot go, you cannot stray from the path anyway. This is not straying. We have this photo, but even if it was not here, then it doesn't mean that if the photo is here, some certification or something like that. Yeah. So as long as you're in your heart and you're not allowing any sort of spiritual concepts or mind to get mixed in your own thing, it's completely, completely fine.

Because I have this... you know, there's a sense of watching his videos and there's such a strong, strong... I have no words for his presence. It's so loving and of course I can relate to the Vedanta and I'm putting the fingers, the path, the seer, it's the same thing, but it's an aspect of this. I'm just putting out if I'm seeing it rightly.

So all the sages are pointing us to our heart. All the sages are pointing us to the no-mind, to the unborn. You see, different expressions, everyone's expression is different. But the end goal, if there is such a thing, is the same. Yes. So I also always think you just have to be true to yourself, true to your heart, and recognize that if you ever become mental, then don't fall for any arrogance saying 'I must be right' or 'this is what it is.' And some of that you have to smell for yourself. You have to smell for us. And it's difficult because it's like Guruji says, it's almost like having to smell your own breath and determine whether it's smelly or not. So that doesn't seem so easy, but you can smell it. I feel like you've been in Satsang long enough to be able to just notice when you're going into some like conceptual spiritual fantasification, or is it really being true to your heart? So you can get a sense of that. In any way, life will guide you. There's nothing to worry.

Because it's like, you know, I feel the same same presence in your presence, but there's something with certain beings which we are pulled, which we cannot explain through words why is it like that. But I'm putting it out because in your presence it's the same heart and feeling. And this way when I talked to my mom, I said I don't know why this is happening, this wave is coming. And then I was talking about that you had a time when you were reciting the Hanuman Chalisa and it took a life on its own, as you said.

The presence cannot be experienced by the head. And when consciousness is playing as if the head is telling it meaningful and true and viable things, then even the presence seems to be not experienced. Actually, it's always experienced, but it seems to get blurry. So if the presence is palpable and you're not being mental about it, that's all Satsang. It doesn't matter which instrument or which form is making you that open and empty, you see?

Headless. I was sensing that in his... as you look at his photos and there was not... the contemplation didn't happen, but just the tears were flowing. So there was a sense, am I doing something wrong here, that as I'm not contemplating now, the mind is not busy asking who is aware?

And one tip I'll give you is that the whole point of being devoted to a master is that it gives you something that you can replace in your narrative with the ego. We provisionally need a replacement in our narrative before we can drop it fully for some of us. So whatever expression, whatever master, it's all the same anyway. But the master should not be relevant because 'I am now doing this for this master, I am now...' because then the 'I am,' the 'I,' is more relevant in that narrative, see? So whatever form we are feeling devoted to, and even if we can't really decide a form or make a definite form out of it, in whichever way we are feeling the devotion, make that devotion replace yourself with that in your narrative. That is when the purpose is being served. Otherwise, it will be the same thing that 'I... you know, that one is important because I like that one' or 'this one is important because I like this one.' Find one that you can replace with in your narrative.

That's why I put it out, yes, in order to see if there's a trick of the egoic identification in this. Of course, your point is like, can I stop being 'I'?

I can elaborate on that a little bit. So the whole point of having a master... of course, the illustration is a little different than the story. It's talking about two beloveds and you of course heard the story of Heer and Ranjha, which is a very well-known story of love and true love and things. So there's a Sufi couplet which goes... so this is what I mean by replacing the protagonists in the narrative. So the whole point of being devoted to God or Guru is that you are that devoted that you yourself become that. It is not because the Guru is important because it's your—that non-existent one's—Guru. It is because all is the Guru itself. So when the line dissolves, when all separation dissolves and there is no notion of choice-making or decision-making or conceptual understanding, that is when we see that all of these bodies are just expressions. The Samanta body and other bodies are just expressions of the same Satguru presence, which is your very heart. So as you think that, allow that to take over. Don't let it be relevant because it is you experiencing that. These are subtle things. I don't know how to say that right. You're getting a sense of what I'm saying? Tell me something which is not about you. What comes as you are not? Without this, can we learn to live over here? So we can say, like very simply, it doesn't have to be something exotic or spiritual or something. You can just say, you know, the thing with Neem Karoli Baba was that thousands of people would come to him and he would just have to reach out from under his blanket and the foods would show up and he would be able to give.

Yeah, for example, yes. Yeah, he would produce jalebi standing in the middle of the pond and it's feeding everyone that came with this thing, feeding everyone who came irrelevant of this background or her background.

Thank you. Again, okay, let me go to B3s and see if our mic is working.

I want to expose something because I feel like when I go to work, I feel too much fear coming. So like every day I have to cross this fear to go to do my job, that is me. And when I expose, I want to expose all the narrative, only belief in the mind. Like what is happening is that I'm seeing all the time these narratives and so...

Yes, you'll see the last part again. You see what all the time?

I see all the time, like in the moment during holiday when this narrative comes, yes, I see.

You see that it comes? You mean you see the thoughts?

Yeah, yeah. I think I see and also I get identified.

Let's do it. Let's see. Seeing them, you get identified. Is it possible to get identified just in the seeing of the thoughts? You know what, is it possible to get identified just using our attention?

I have to really... yes, yes.

So stop that.

Yes. So this is like this stuff is happening more and more.

Yes, so start now. Stop doing that.

I don't know if I'm doing right now. I'm doing that right now.

And without doing that, tell me what is happening. Without doing the believing.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Anything missing? No, no, no. That's it.

Yes, this one.

No, I want to expose all the narrative to finish with all these things. I don't know.

Yes, but to expose sometimes, no, I see there's a trick also sometimes in when we say 'I want to expose.' Because when we expose, we are sort of saying, 'Could this be true, by the way? You know, I just want to check with you whether it could be true.' And of course it can never be true. It is just mind stuff. That's why I started asking this question whether when we want to expose, we want to... it is because we are buying into the truth of it or because we are not buying into the truth of it? Because in the past there is this buying in the truth in there when...

Also, sometimes when we say 'I want to expose' because when we expose, we are sort of saying, 'Could this be true, by the way?' You know, I just want to check with you whether it could be true. And of course, it can never be true; it is just mind stuff. So that's why I started asking this question: whether when we want to expose, it is because we are buying into the truth of it or because we are not buying into the truth of it. Because in the past, there is a belief in the truth in there. When we learn the words 'now it's happening' or something, or opening up, that is... yup. So when you expose it, then I will take all the truth from it, yes? But you don't take it back from me then, okay? So you can expose what seems true, what seems to... right now, I don't know what you mean. What did you want to expose?

Yeah, because it seems true. The person, the entire person that I thought they believed—it's like I want that this finish. Do you know that there is a price? There is a price for ten years; there's a price for anyone to show me the person. I will pay them a thousand dollars. So you're going to expose the person finally? Show me where is... I want to see. I have never met a person yet. Please show me. I don't know, you said you want to expose the person fully. Where is it? Where is it? Where is this person?

I see that is third. Even sometimes what can happen is that we may feel like, 'I need to do this, I need to be rid of this, I need to become like this,' all of this. But who is telling us all of this? That 'I need to expose' also? I am not saying you can't expose. Satsang is a beautiful place where you can expose, but burn it. Keep exposing the same thing because then we are not really burning it, you see? Then it is just a way to get some more acceptance of that that you want to expose. Exposed means it's exposed in the sunlight; it catches fire and burns, you see? That's to expose. So when we say, 'I want to expose the person fully,' gone.

Person? No, I don't know. But I cannot say. And who is... there is one who is speaking. This is Consciousness. Can speak without the head? In the mind, it's... if the mind can say that only the mind can do speaking or working or any of these things, and yet the whole universe is operating without the mind.

So who is that who's running the universe? Consciousness. God. Can the non-existent frog sitting next to you jump around? Can the dog sitting next to you jump around? Jump around? Yeah, I jump around the house, you know. The non-existent frog, the frog that never existed, how much can it jump in your house? Never. No. Yeah. In the same way, what can the person do? It is as little as that. It is as literal as that. Sometimes I feel like you're hearing this metaphorically; it's fully literal. There is no person that has ever existed. So when you say, 'Who is now not believing the thought?' or 'Who is speaking?' or 'Who is whatever?' who is there? Only Consciousness. I don't see it as a multiple-choice question. Never. Consciousness. The only part of the play is the Consciousness with the mask on or Consciousness without the mask on. If the mask is off, what does it take to take the mask off? Nothing. A click before the tree. Please already know God.

I couldn't really... I can't understand English fluently. That's okay. Four to five times I have been with this song. I would really like to thank you for your guidance. I have no questions, but I would like to thank you, Mooji. Thank you so much. I have no questions.

You're welcome here. And if the language ever becomes a problem, then you can put it in the chat. So maybe if there's a question that comes up in future satsangs, you can just put it in the chat that you want to say something and we can speak for a short time in the end and see how it goes, okay?

Okay. I have no questions just now, but I really loved this meeting. And I have also heard Mooji three, four times. Yes. And also I experienced the state without any thought. Yes. Yeah, body was doing its work and Consciousness was doing its work. Very quick. Full love, full blessings.

Okay, let's go to Jyoti now. Saying let's go to jail. Okay, thank you. Hello, Father. Welcome to you. I feel like your English is very fluent actually, so you must not ever feel that it's not, from what I've heard so far. That's very good. Yeah, good. Oh, you went back on everyone. Yeah, oh good.

Um, I feel like a little bit drunk and overloaded, like my body on some level. Um, yeah, I feel a little bit tired actually, so that's why I wanted to meet with you. This is not the only reason, but yeah. Um, all is good actually. In a deep way, all is just good. They are not... yeah, nothing really touched me so deeply actually, whether it's happening, and especially the things which were bothering me a lot. Can you hear me, Father?

You a lot? Yes, the things which were bothering me a lot.

Like, yeah, all my stuff. And it's so beautiful to see that they are not actually touching me deeply anymore. And I'm happy to see this actually. But still they have some... yeah, as this getting lighter and lighter is what I'm hearing.

Yeah, yeah. Yes. So yeah, I'm happy and I... um, like I don't know. I feel to check with you actually, if you feel to check because... yeah, yeah, if you have more questions because... yeah, give me a sense of what you want to check.

Like, it's a little funny, like awareness. It's like you yourself don't believe that you have that trouble, huh? You yourself are not in the belief that you have that trouble. It's just seeming very light and easy now for you, no?

What, everything? Yeah, it seems so. Like earlier when you used to come, you say, 'I have this problem and I want to tell you and you're not helping me' or you are... well, now it's just like you can check you. So I can see the lightness already. It's very good.

Yeah, I also see this lightness. Like, yeah. So you see the one thing... let's hear it. No, but like... um, it's like, okay. It's like as you know, of course, like my whole attention was on my personal life, how this one is. And yeah, it's now just... I question because I see people on satsang, they always bring the question of awareness and perceiving and this stuff. And it's like, I want to be like this, you know? Like I want to be on satsang if this is the real satsang. It's like what I wanted, not much this personal thing just drops. Not fully, but somehow it cannot hold on to me anymore. Yes, from its fruits. So if this is satsang to speak about this and this, I don't know really. That's why I'm bringing this.

Very, very good. Thank you, thank you. That's very good actually. So let's see if we can frame this in some ways. So what I'm hearing is that life seems much lighter. Something spoke from time to time, but they're not as heavy and difficult as they used to be, and it seems like it's fine. But most who come to satsang, they are usually talking about awareness and the Absolute and Consciousness, and we are always saying all of this stuff. But then, am I missing the main thing in satsang? Why not? No. As you open like that, and like all that I'm pointing to is just... there are many who come to satsang—not many, there are few who come to satsang who never had questions about awareness and Consciousness, and yet without any effort to understand any of that, just because they surrendered, everything was fully apparent to them. Everything is fully apparent. So you don't have to pick up a new struggle now to say, 'Okay, now I'm open and light, now I have to now understand what are they talking about and perceiving and being.' Don't have to trouble yourselves with any of them. It's just organically flowering in your openness, and one day you'll hear all these words and you say that this is very obvious. 'Is this what everybody's been talking about so long?' You see? It just sounds... it seems to be like—I hate to use the word again and again—but apparent. This is so apparent. It's all good. You're going very well.

Yeah, I know when I feel like this. And thank you so much.

Okay, looks like Madelena is back. Hello, Father. Oh my God, thank you. Are you really struggling? Best of both worlds at the moment. If I'm struggling in both worlds, you're straddling the best of both worlds. I do, yes. India and Sahaja, you mean? Yeah, you.

Thomas passed away a couple of hours ago. So we met with Guruji, who informed us about his transition and the death in silence a little bit. So I'll take this opportunity too. All of us, I want in this. So true, so true. We are so blessed. And one... I guess one taking from the short meeting with Guruji was that those, Thomas and his wife, were very much in peace and in their seeing. And yeah, it was an invitation to contemplate with this like ephemeral nature of the body and transition. So be that we realize our true nature and we give out the belief that we are the body, body-mind, whatever constructed. The guy seems to be all right. Um, thank you, thank you, thank you. I put my hand up earlier because I don't want to leave. I probably recording of what happened earlier. Have a lot of fun.

Can you give that? A lot of fun. You will have a lot of fun when you watch the recording of the previous conversation I just had with your kids. Oh yes, Kelly was very pleased with your answers. He told me like, 'You did well, Father.' Thank you for looking after them when I was absent. I... there is a bit of... oh, there is a lot of personal identity about the seeker and the person who's responsible and the doer that's coming up. And it takes a bit of time to... I have refrained today. Refrain. H-B-Y-K. H-D-Y-K. Forget about it. What? They just gave it away to me two seconds, thirty seconds ago. This is why I stopped, because I was going to say I already did that, but it was my show. It's all... somebody who's got it can put it in the chat. Oh, for Madelena. Thank you, Father, for your grace. Someone put the right thing in the chat: 'How do you know?' Ah, everybody's doing very well. How do you know?

Do we feel that the mind collaborates with us on this spiritual journey to tell us what is wrong and what is happening? 'There's a lot of personal identity playing out,' the mind is telling us so that we can fix it. Do we really feel this like that? He's telling us there's a lot of personal identity so that we can actually look at it and fix it and expose it and surrender it? You see, the mind is that helpful like that? It's not the mind. It's just pointing. There's a lot of personal identity playing out. You say, 'I can see' or 'I know' or something. No, but you can't see and you don't know. But your master tells you that you either identified or you have resistances and you're not following the point. Suppose the master is chopping you. That chop is meant to be taken in that very moment, not as homework. There's a lot of personal identity playing. Drop it. Finish. You can't make that pointing, the chop, as part of your personal identity now, which is what the ego wants to do. 'My master's told me there's a lot of personal identity playing.' So what is that becoming a part of? Not personal identity. You're very right, Father.

And my mind became a bit obsessive-compulsive about this self-realization. How do you know? Because I self-inquiry. Next time when you have a question, I'll talk over you to see how he feels. I'm self-inquiring. You've been in sleep... there is a... this one is self-inquiring even when you sleep. In deep sleep, you're self-inquiring? Not in deep sleep. I think my sleep is not... if not deep enough, something is going on all the time. And even in satsang with... just answer the question: how do you know? I've asked you one question. I observe it from the wrong place, I think. I observe it with an interest. For example, this that 'I observe it from the wrong place.' How? Where is this coming from? How do you know this? Your observation is showing you? Your perception is showing you observing from the wrong place? It's showing you like that? Is it like that? It's not like it's marked 'wrong.' Yes, you can't be in pure perception. There's never anything marked wrong, only in a mental categorization. So if we go to...

I've asked you one question. I observe it from the wrong place. I think I observe it with an interest. For example, this—that I observe it from the wrong place.

How? Where is this coming from? How do you know this? Your observation is showing you, your perception is showing you, observing from the wrong place? It's showing you like that? Is it like that? It's not like it's marked 'wrong.' Yes, you can't be in pure perception; there's never anything marked wrong, only in a mental categorization.

So if we go to the seller of the trouble to get rid of trouble, how is that relationship going to work out? It's not. He's still selling and I'm still buying. Yes, because it sounds spiritual, it sounds attractive, and it sounds spiritually helpful. The mind comes and says, 'I'm going to tell you what your problem is. You have some trouble in your sleep state and you have some trouble in your perception also. So you know, I am not the trouble; I am your best friend. I am telling you what's wrong. How can you want to get rid of me? Without me, how will you know what's wrong?' This is the mind. You always know. I know. So if you can spot it, you can drop it.

Allow the mind to get frustrated. It's okay. It'll say, 'But then there's nothing left to say.' All of that it'll do. Bear it. It's okay. Just go through it. It's not that difficult. But if you keep taking its problems—the problems that it is proposing about you—as if they are your real problems, then what you're saying is that my mind is actually helping me get rid of my mind, which it will not do. Otherwise, why will he tell you the truth about what your problems are?

See, so we go to the wrong instrument to tell us the truth, you see? And then we hope that the wrong instrument will help us on the journey towards getting rid of the wrong instrument. It's like the tenant who's not paying rent. We're trying to throw him out of the house, but we are listening to the tenant only. 'How should we throw this tenant out? Where is he? Where is he hiding?' And the tenant says, 'He's actually gone visiting his mom, you know, over there.' So you go over there. That's what it does, and we buy into that. We go chasing the tenant's mom. Sitting right there saying, 'Go to the mom's house, that's where the problem is.' It's not in the thought, it's in the sensation. It's not in... it's in the circumstances of life. So all of these are the mom and the aunt and the uncles and grandparents. Everyone is fine.

So where can we go for the truth? That is the ultimate question. Repeat that. My internet is not so stable. I was saying, where can we go for the truth? Go for true knowledge. We come to satsang because satsang is the company of the truth. Yes, yes. I hear you. Is interruptions okay? Maybe the video off it will be better. So keep it like this.

To find the truth or some meaning, and then it becomes like in many situations in life, we come to satsang to be in the company of the truth. That is the literal satsang. So we want to come to satsang to come and find the truth. Now in satsang, if we come to satsang and we devote all our time and energy to solving the apparent problems which the false is proposing that we have, then will that be satsang? And then it can feel like, 'Oh, but then there's nothing left to say.' But that's not true because I want to hear all of you from your heart. I want to hear all of you. It's not true that you cannot speak without the mind. So this is like an explosion for the root itself.

If you get off the treadmill of taking mind problems to be real and trying to solve them, and then taking the next problem and then trying to solve them—how long have we been on this treadmill? It is endless. We can go forever like this. Does the mind even if it tells you you are perfect as you are... sometimes the mind plays that everything is fine, but just make sure you keep it so. Don't fall for this seller of trouble.

So, 'How do you know?' is my favorite question and it's probably the most irritating question for the sangha at the moment. But I remember there was a time when I used to say 'The truth is so apparent to everyone' used to be the most irritating thing, and now it seems to have become easier. In the same way, 'How do you know?' You'll start checking. Otherwise, the mind is just saying, 'This is your problem, you know, this is what you're doing wrong,' and then you're like, 'Okay, how do I fix this?' Where can we go for the truth? In the heart. That's it. Is there a problem in the heart now? Why? There's never a good enough reason to leave the heart for the head.

I was going to say I don't have a good enough reason. Never. And please don't buy into any idea that, 'Oh, this one thing—my relationship, my job, my whatever—can only be done by the head.' That heart is the intelligence of this entire universe. Everything can run from there. I don't even have a job. I only have two children to raise. That's joy. Yeah, that's quite a job. But yeah, let me just quickly... thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, Father.

Okay, let's go to Punita. Thank you so much today. Namaste. Now everyone seemed to be frozen. Ah, thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, let's go to the next one. Let's go to Dory. Is that a familiar voice? Hello, Dory.

I have a question. I guess this is a very amateur question, but always amateur intuition never comes in a voice form? I mean, all the time that I'm listening to these voices, all the time it is the mind? Intuition never comes in that way? Always it is silent?

Okay, got it. I got your question. So you're saying if I'm hearing a voice, does it always have to be the mind? Can that voice not be my intuition? That's the question? Okay, so let me check and you just answer honestly. If it feels too difficult, then I can try and find some other way for you to confirm. But when I ask you if you are aware—when I ask you if you are aware—that answer is clear to you? Yes. So simple like that. So stay that way and that is what I call empty. Stay empty like that and then whatever guidance is coming to you, that is your intuition. It can be a voice, it can be just you start typing something, it could just be that your feet start moving somewhere, it could be that you're just sitting in the same place. It is the intelligence of the Self itself, so it can use any instrument to reveal itself.

So you can trust that. Now this is the foolproof solution: when what you are as awareness is apparent to you, then you are being intuitive and not mental. So like that, if you're hearing a voice but what you are is not seemingly shaken, then that's intuitive. It's fine because you are hearing the voice of intuition when you come to satsang. So this voice which is using this man is also... it's also speaking words, isn't it? So you don't come to satsang to hear the mind; you come to hear the intuitive presence. So of course it can use words, it can use everything. Every tool is available at its disposal and our nose, our ability to smell the mind, will become stronger and stronger. So then the mind will never be able to fool us.

Remember that the spiritual aspect of your mind is not intuition. Many can feel... yeah, like that. That's very confusing to me sometimes because it feels like it's spiritual and intuition, but then not because it's also ego and it's also judging me.

So another small tip is that if the voice seems a bit pushy—you know, pushy like aggressive—and it wants you to want something, it wants you to have something, it's grasping at things, then that is the mind, you see? So what happens is the mind can also pose as if it is the Guru. The mind can say, 'My child, just do like that. What you have to do, go and talk to that man.' You see? It'll say all of this thing. You say, 'Yeah, that is my intuition.' That can feel like a very convenient intuition, but our smelling can become very much better. But the tip I gave you first, which is when what you really are is apparent to you, then you're being intuitive and not mental. Okay? So you can trust that voice and I want to hear your report and how that goes. Okay, thank you. I love you so much.

Okay, last, let's go to Cookie. Let's go.

Morning, Father. Sorry that I just joined right now, I didn't realize the time difference. Don't know why I raised my hand, but I just didn't want to miss the chance to speak to you. At this moment I have nothing to report.

It's okay like this also. Just wanting to say hello, you know, just like that is completely fine. Why I'm saying that is many times over the years I've noticed that because someone just wanted to have this interaction, then they have to really think of some questions. You don't have to do that.

I see that. I don't have your conversation. I just... I listened to your satsang about how we would find God and I was so in the heart and when I heard you everything became clear. I saw how much I'd been in the head listening and wasn't following my heart. And I've been on a journey; every morning I would get up and say, 'Okay, how do I get back to the Self?' and spend the day trying to find my way back to where I am. And I just went back to the simplicity of it and realized it's okay like at this moment if I don't know anything. Yes, and just to keep bringing the attention back to my heart. And I realized when this first started happening to me, what was it? It was just because of love. So if I just keep bringing that love back to myself and allowing myself to disappear in it, it reveals itself. The only question that comes all the time is how to marinate in the beingness. And I kept watching you with Madam and seeing how the mind, the thoughts, keep pulling me into a reality that doesn't exist. They make me believe thoughts that aren't real. And I don't know if it's right what I'm saying right now, but...

Very good, very good. So any question like that—'How can I marinate in this more?'—if it is coming from... and you can smell now, and I've given you the tools to distinguish between mind and heart. If it is coming from the head, know that the head does not want to be headless. The head does not want to be headless. So just let go of any such questions even if they sound very spiritually useful or helpful. Just forget about it. So if your head is saying, 'How to marinate in it?' just let it go. Forget about it.

Something says, 'Is it enough?' Those questions always come.

And then I'll give you all a tip which is important. Okay? Just because it comes up, or it comes up often, doesn't give it the validity that you should take it to be a helpful thing or a valid thing that you have to unravel. Just because the mind will keep playing that trick of repetition. It will keep saying, 'Okay, but how? How?' whatever, whatever. The point is, just by its coming up does not give it enough value that it must be then resolved. Where can we go to find the real problem that has to be solved? The mind will never propose that as its own solution. So how to solve something? From where can I get a true report about what needs to be done? Just stay aware. Just stay in the heart. That's it. End of the merry-go-round. That's the end of it.

Someone beautifully said, 'What is your dog doing right now?' and I look at that and he's doing nothing, just not thinking and just being with that and just going with the flow. Sometimes something happens, Father, which doesn't feel very good. It's the mixing. And then all of a sudden it's like as if a dream is pulling me in.

Okay, but how do you know that this mixing happens? You notice the mixing. You notice two things getting mixed.

I notice if I close my eyes that it feels like I'm here but my head is...

Someone beautifully said, 'What is your dog doing right now?' and I look at that and he is doing nothing, just not thinking and just being with that and just going with the flow. Sometimes something happens, oh Father, which doesn't feel very good. It's the mixing, and then all of a sudden it's like as if a dream is pulling me in.

Okay, but how do you know that this mixing happens? You notice the mixing. You notice two things getting mixed.

I notice if I close my eyes that it feels like I'm here, but my head is... I don't know.

Is that a pleasant feeling when you close your eyes and that imagination comes in? Okay, but the pleasantness or the unpleasantness, the goodness and the badness, all these opposites—are they inherent in the perception itself? I don't know. That's what the exploration is for. Because if you keep taking the mind's judgment, the intellect's judgments about whether something is pleasant, unpleasant, good for us, bad for us, what would be a better state, what is the worst state, then what would the objective of the mind be? To perpetuate itself, not to free you from itself.

Just get this one point for everyone today: don't trust the mind to be the helpful guide to freedom from the mind. Its intention is always only to perpetuate itself. So, question the problem that you're trying to solve. What is telling you that this problem is true for you? Is it from the mind? Then the intent of the mind is only to perpetuate itself, not to rid itself from you or rid you from itself. Are we going too far with this stuff? Because to me it sounds like fairly obvious.

Okay, so let's take a simple example. So if there is someone who wants to be your best friend and it says, 'No, no, no, if you say hi to that one, then that one will try to be friendly with you, so don't say all of that,' but you don't want this one to be your best friend, so are you going to listen to this one about what to do so that you are no longer best friends with them? That is just absurdity, you know? You see what I'm saying? So if you listen to the mind's advice about what is the best way to be rid of the mind, that is not going to come from this. That's all I'm saying.

Anything that... I've been following everything that you say to do. Much more calmer, don't feel like grasping.

That's it. That's open and empty, in fact. So when you are just... your attention is free to go wherever it wants and you are not grasping, that's open and empty. That's all that you need.

I can feel it a little bit right now. Okay, something wants to say, 'Okay, what are you going to do now?' and just nothing. Nothing. I want to also say thank you to Kaisha so much. She is always giving and she is always pointing me back continuously when I'm in the head, and I thank her for that. Thank you, Father. Thank you.

Good. Thank you all so much. Yes.