If You Are Looking for the Truth, Don't Go to Your Mind - 5th February 2021

So, there are two different levels. When we are not needy about any perception and when we are conceptually empty, then the insight that we have is awareness, you see. So, empty of any need or desire from the world, empty of relying on any concept as the truth, the insight that you have is yourself. And that Self is not different from awareness. As Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi said, awareness is another name for your reality.

Does it sound like a tidal wave when I drink water now with this new mic? Okay, so this is good. So, if you feel like you have understood conceptually what is being spoken about in satsang, then you see, forget about it, because very soon I'm going to contradict everything that you have understood. What is the highest—in the way I half-jokingly say this—the highest intellectual understanding that you can come to is that you cannot understand. And even that is just intellectual; we can have that in our intellect, you see. But beyond that, what I'm pointing to is impossible for the intellect to grasp, just like it is impossible for your hands to grasp this space. And to try and look for the Self, you see, to try and look for yourself using your perceptive or perceptual powers or conceptual powers, intellectual powers, is like trying to do a root canal with a hammer or something like that. You cannot do it. You cannot find yourself with these tools.

So, I wanted to look at this question which was very good and I felt like it will be a good place to start. So, one wrote to me on Facebook saying: 'Dear Anantaji, Namaste. Hope this finds you doing well.' Thank you, my dear. 'Yesterday was my first satsang with you that I attended nearly to the end. The four bowl example crystallized something that has been brewing in me. As a physics major, it is easy for me to discard the first three bowls. Everything that is observable will change due to the very act of observing/perceiving. I can also identify myself with awareness that I am. The little perplexing notion is as follows: I am aware of my awareness and that (physics knowledge to the detriment here) brings out an intuitive notion of sorts that awareness itself could be a phenomenon. You see, Guruji at the last online retreat clearly mentioned that awareness cannot be discovered, yet I am aware of awareness. I am not entirely sure if this is an energy emerging from one of the three bowls or being aware of awareness is a special case of awareness itself in front of a deeper place of knowing. Deeply grateful for the words that come from you. Much love forever at Guruji's feet.' The one who has sent this question, okay, good, good, good.

So, we'll revisit the question in a moment. There are many of you who could be new to satsang or maybe just didn't attend last week, so maybe it'll be good to recap the four bowls example. Some of you felt like there are four balls or something like that; it's not four balls, it is the bowls. So, what are the four bowls? The first bowl is all the knowledge that you have, you see, that you acquire using perception. For example, right now you may perceive that you are in a satsang hall, there are people around you; all of this, you are relying on your perception to make these judgments to gain this, acquire this knowledge. So, any knowledge which is based on this kind of perception, you see, we put in the first bowl. With me? First bowl is clear.

Second bowl: everything that you know but you've not really even perceived, you see. Like the earth is a sphere; you've only seen it in some TV or something like that, but your experience of it, your direct experience of it, is that it is flat, you see. Then the idea that it is the earth that goes around the sun, whereas your perception is that, very apparently, it is the sun that goes around the earth, you see. And yet we have the ability to carry beliefs which are contrary to our perception because they come from credible sources, you see. Like when you... for many of us, God is a belief, you see, and we are changing that and we are moving it from belief to direct insight, you see. But all of this belief system or knowledge, so-called knowledge, that we have acquired through just concepts, you see, also all the knowledge that you have acquired through intellectual computations—'this is therefore this, the three bowls have this, therefore fourth bowl will have that'—all of these computational exercises of reasoning will also go into the second bowl. You don't perceive any of it, but you're using your reasoning abilities to make conclusions which sound like knowledge. So, everything that is conceptual, you see, purely conceptual, goes into the second bowl.

Now, the third bowl is a bonus one actually, because everything perceptual and conceptual is covered, but I've seen that this one trips up a lot of spiritual seekers, and that is the dominance of the question: 'What's in it for me?' you see. So, desire, and especially spiritual desire, and that gets in the way because the instant you come to some insight, the mind will say, 'So how does that help me?' you see, or 'Can you really keep this? This happened to you three years ago as well, so how does that help?' you see. So, this kind of... that it's supposed to help me, my life should change in some way, I am supposed to get bliss, supposed to get anything. So, all kinds of desires, especially the seeker desires, all go into bowl number three, you see.

So now the question is—it's a two-part question—the main question is: So what remains to go into bowl number four? What has to go into bowl number four, you see? And I have some hammers to give you along with these bowls. The first hammer is: In which bowl did you go? Are you a perception? Then if you're a perception, you go into bowl number one. Are you just a concept, a notion, a product of intellectual reasoning? If you are that, then you go into bowl number two, you see. Are you just a bundle of desire? Then you go into bowl number three, you see. But if you're none of these, you see, then what are you? Then you may say, 'Yes, through a process of reasoning I see I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm not this, therefore I must be in bowl number four,' you see. But remember that all that reasoning, all your capacity to reason, goes to bowl number two already. So, we cannot rely on that for the answer, you see.

Now, the second hammer is: Are you aware now? Are you aware now? And that confirmation, 'Yes,' does it come from perceptual knowledge? Is it just a concept for you? Is it a desire? No. So, how do you recognize this awareness, you see? Where this truth about yourself is known, that is your intuitive space, that is your intuitive intelligence. How do you access it? You can't access it. You cannot go to it. You can just let go of the first three bowls. Let go means not that they should stop coming, only that you would stop relying on them for the truth, you see, and start relying on them for the truth.

So, what's happening with the question now, you see? So, what's happening with the question, I feel—and if you're here, my dear, who asked the question, then you can raise your hand and we can look together—but from the message, the feeling I get is that you are getting this pure insight about what you are, you see. But now, because of habit, you're trying to translate that into: What is it that you have understood? You see, 'Can awareness not be just another sort of energy?' you see. So, in that intuitive insight where this question does not arise and cannot arise, it has been handed over to the intellect to try and make some conceptual confirmation of what your discovery is, you see. So, you don't have to conclude anything conceptually. That's why often I say that for some time, allow me to make the claims on your behalf, because your claims for the moment will come from your intellect, you see. You remain in that space where it is apparent to you that you are aware, you see. That is not your mind, that is not your sight, it is not your hearing, it is not your smelling, it is not your touching or tasting, you see. It is beyond all of that. You are not seeing awareness, you're not hearing awareness, you're not tasting it, you're not touching it, you're not smelling it. There is a deeper recognition beyond all perception which is just pure...

Your claims for the moment will come from your intellect, you see. You remain in that space where it is apparent to you that you are aware. You see, that is not your mind, that is not your sight, it is not your hearing, it is not your smelling, it is not your touching or tasting. You see, it is beyond all of that. You are not seeing awareness, you're not hearing awareness, you're not tasting it, you're not touching it, you're not smelling it. There is a deeper recognition beyond all perception which is just purely intuitive. Now, don't try to squeeze this understanding into your head, you see. Don't squeeze this understanding into your head, which only means that don't try and rationalize what you are discovering. Leave your rationality aside for some time. Don't hunger for a mental confirmation. It means nothing. All labels, all labels including the label 'awareness', is kept aside.

Yes, you will have responses like I'm getting on chat, which is that, yes, it is there by itself. You see, it's there by itself. You see, it just is. If I say, 'How do you know that you are aware?' you will most likely say, 'I just do.' But because 'I just do' doesn't sound very spiritually glamorous, we have to say it is intuitive. See? So you just do, you see. It's that effortless. It is that natural. There, where is the trouble? The trouble is when you try to make an experience or a state out of it, or you try to make a conceptual understanding out of it. These are the only two ways in which you'll create trouble, you see.

Um, sorry, is it a bit long? Should we have the panel? Oh, it's okay. A little bit, no, with the helicopter. Maybe if some of you are feeling lost, especially the new ones, then recognize that being lost is okay. You're only conceptually lost. You're only confused in your head, never confused in reality. So allow that confusion to be there. I'm not referring to you at that level. So whether you're confused or clear in your head doesn't really matter to me so much, you see. So let that be. If you're thinking that you're having some experiences, then don't be attached to them. They can come, you see, and they can go. Enjoy them if they're enjoyable, you see, but let them come and go. They mean nothing to what I'm talking about.

Yes, so when we say, for example, that seeing is happening by itself, yes, it's completely true. But this seeing is not sight, you see. It is not seeing like this, like sight. It is insight, which is not using attention. This is a major distinction because many of you are still trying to find the Self using your attention, you see. And you may feel that one day I will send my attention that deep inside me that there will be discovered the Self, you see. So our whole job is to send attention deep inside. But it's not like that, because anything that you will get with your attention will just be a perception, but your Self will never be a perception.

So letting go of attention, letting go of conceptualization is the way to access your heart, your true intuitive intelligence, where it is completely apparent—and it always was—as to what you are. Completely apparent. So if you're confused, welcome, it is fine. If you're clear, welcome, it is fine. It will go soon anyway, so it's fine. Enjoy it while it lasts, but it has nothing to do with either of those. Your intuition is never clear or confused; it is beyond such attributes.

So who would like to have a conversation about this? Not the content of the first bowl, not the content of the second bowl, about what you understood and what you still haven't understood and how can we come to that understanding—that's all second bowl stuff. Then what you wanted out of this and how you're getting it or not getting it—not that. None of these three. But just about the simple direct insight itself. What is the... is there any obstruction there? Is there any lack of clarity there? Some of you, the mind may be bothering you with this kind of silly thing saying, 'But can it be that simple?' You see, just forget about it. Just forget about it. It's neither simple nor difficult. It is not at that level. Okay, so that's it. Satsang over. How many seconds before we'll go to one of the bowls seeking some truths there? No, apparently we go seeking the truth only; we don't go seeking lies.

Okay, I have a question. Um, what is... what is a better question: 'Who is aware?' or 'How do I know that I am aware?'

Who is aware. Stay with 'Who is aware' for the moment. Now I'm going to sound a bit harsh, okay? But I don't mean to be harsh. Like there's a statement which is coming, it's more of a question. So 'truth means as is', master, question mark? No. So that's the question: does truth mean 'as is'? You see, now this is a good illustration of when I'm saying you're having the insight instantly. When I say, 'Are you aware now?' you see, or 'Who is aware of your being?'—any of these pointers from Satsang—now the need to conclude what truth means, where will we conclude that? Second bowl stuff, no? In the intellect. Like the intellect may be jumping around saying, 'This insight that you're having, you see, what does it actually mean?' Your head cannot handle what it means, you see. So that's what I'm saying: don't try to squeeze it in your head. You cannot squeeze this universal understanding into just these tiny concepts. So just let go of that attempt to try and understand here. You already have all the understanding that you need in your heart intuitively, you see. Let go. Let go.

Okay, Peter has a request to speak. If you can raise your hand then I can spot you. When I say raise your hand, I mean in the tool, you know, in Zoom you have to go to reactions and in reactions there's an option to raise hand. On the phone it is the three dots. I'm looking for you anyway as well. Now, there you are. Okay.

My question is a little subtle. It's connected to the attention, yes. Because until now I always found... I thought... I've been following Guruji's pointing for some years now and I always try to fix the attention on the Self, to use the attention to go inside or something. You can call it like this. And what I found is mostly the sense of presence. It has some bodily qualities; it's like I'm aware of the breath and the sense of being. For me, which I could find by attention, it has always something a little bit phenomenal. Guruji once called it the 'hum of being', I think. And now, following your pointings and finding out there's still something behind this sense of being or this little phenomenal thing about being, I can still watch it. Or 'watch it' is maybe not the right expression, but I'm still somehow aware of even that. I would call it awareness of the sense of being, and this has really nothing phenomenal anymore. So it came to me when you said with attention, as far as I understood, with attention you can only find something phenomenal. And it was a little bit the point I was struggling with all the time because this what I could find with attention inside, it had something phenomenal, something bodily. It was in some kind empty, was quiet, but it always had some little phenomenal quality like the hum of the body or like the breath or something like that. And now I see even this is seen, even this is recognized by, let's call it, awareness.

Yes. Okay, thank you. Thank you for this question. It's very nice, very good one, and will allow us to look at some things very clearly. So let's really investigate this. So what can happen when we send attention seemingly inside, then you are absolutely right, using Guruji's words, that you come to this sense of beingness, the sense 'I am', which Guruji has beautifully said is the hum of the being. It's like the almost quality-less and yet you can call it a presence which is coming into our attention, coming into our focus. So that hum of the being is there.

What is this sense of beingness? This beingness actually is everywhere. Everything that is perceived, you see, is within this being itself. Intuitively this insight is coming to many of you also. You find that as you're coming to this being, you're finding that it has no boundary, you see. It has no boundary. And yet when you go deep within yourself, you come across this pulsating vibration, primordial vibration, you see, which is very primal. The sense of I am-ness, the sense of beingness, you see. So that very being which is everywhere—in fact, every awareness is included in that being—that is that space in which this space manifests, that seems to have some centrality, for want of better words, like a pulsating vibration of being, you see. Whether you call it I am-ness, whether you call it Om, whether you call it any other words that define its divinity.

So this is at the cusp of all that is phenomenal and non-phenomenal. Between the cusp is this primordial vibration. So it's coming face to face with the prime vibration of divinity itself and it is very, very pristine. It is very beautiful, you see. So when it comes to what can attention bring to us, it can bring us all the content of this being, which is the regular manifest world, you see. And when we look at its very source, including the source of attention itself, the maximum we can get to is to come to this sense of presence, the sense of beingness, you see. More than that we cannot go with our attention. That's why I said it's the cusp of the non-phenomenal and the phenomenal, the primordial vibration, you see. More than that you cannot go.

So I would not call it something to do with the body or something to do with a specific person. It is pure divinity itself because it is in this light that the light of the sun shines. It is in this light that you are perceiving this entire universe, you see. So that is one extreme as far as attention can go. It can go to the objective world and it can go to this more subtle, you see, the primal vibration. Looked at in another way, it can go from all kinds of colors and light and sound to pure darkness, pure absence of any light or sound, you see. That is the extent to which attention can go. And that is why this is the subtlest thing you can reach at with your attention, which is the sense of presence, which is not the entirety of your being, obviously, you see. It is not the entirety of your being because everything is being. Everything that you can point to is only within your beingness, you see. You can never escape your being with attention, you see. Your attention can only traverse your being.

You may feel like you're sending it to the next room, you're hearing some sounds from the street, you're reaching out to the past and looking at some memory, or you're projecting some ideas into the future, but all of that is just attention traversing your very beingness, you see. It's all part of the play of your being. All time, all space, all of that is in your being. Now, when a question like 'Are you aware now?' comes, yes, and a question like 'Are you aware now?' comes, attention cannot help you, you see. Because the subtlest it can go to is this pulsating vibration of being, you see, the primordial. And that is a pristine place, and yet even in that pristine place, you see, attention cannot go beyond because that is the subtlest perception it can ever have, you see.

So in the practice of staying with the sense 'I am', it's a pristine practice because you just let go of all your worldly duality, desires, and doers, and just rest in the presence of this vibration. And then just naturally that presence itself will lead you to its very source. But with a question like 'Are you aware now?', are you aware now without needing to have any perception, any use of attention whatsoever, either outside or inside—seeming outside and seeming inside—it just transcends all of that perceptual requirement and just, without having any dependence on attention, with eyes open, are you aware now? Yes. Eyes are closed...

And doers, and just rest in the presence of this vibration and then just naturally that presence itself will lead you to its very source. But with a question like 'Are you aware now?' Are you aware now without needing to have any perception, any use of attention whatsoever, either outside or, sorry, inside—seeming outside and seeming inside? It just transcends all of that perceptual requirement and just, without having any dependence on attention, with eyes open, are you aware now? Yes. Eyes are closed, are you aware now? Yes. You see? So, it is independent of what perception there may be. You come to this insight independent of attention.

This is also my experience, what you would say. Because if you ask yourself, or if you try—and you told us you can also try now—I try not to be. If I try not to be, there's a strong feeling of presence or being, but it carries this kind of hum of existence. But if I ask myself, or if I say to myself, 'Am I aware now?' it's just like a bypass to everything. It's just, there's no more this. There's just complete... I don't know how to call it, but it's different. There's no, not even the subtlest feeling of a hum of being or something like that.

And yet, don't make the mistake of making sort of a mental position about it, saying that, 'Oh, like the being is something inferior and what I'm finding through this is something superior,' because that is just again in the intellect, you see? So, what a beautiful satsang in which we can talk about these very pristine topics. We are talking about the enormity of the primordial vibration, which is the divine, the play of divinity itself, you see? And that from which even that appears, you see? Even that appears from that source which is the absolute awareness, you see?

So, in my heart as Ananta, I would have the deepest reverence for this holy presence that is here, you see? You know, the holy presence that is here. And of course, the deepest reverence for its very primal source of even that. So, don't let your mind say, 'Okay, that is like the halfway house of my discovery and this is my full, full something.' In the presence of your presence, you have transcended the world and all of its problems already. It is just such a great beauty that we can even speak about going even beyond that, you see, which is so pristinely beautiful. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Very good.

In fact, in most Indian forms of spirituality—in fact, most forms of spirituality all over the world—you see, getting to this presence is the final step. It is the final step. And they're not wrong, because the presence then takes care of whatever else has to be taken care of. So, so grateful to Guruji for pointing us to this pristine, pristine awareness, insight into this absolute awareness. All through his grace that we can even contemplate this together. Thank you, thank you. Very good. Okay. Let's try. Thank you.

Okay, where was I in the chat? One says, 'Namaste Swamiji, yesterday is fine.' Then next one says, 'Father, I need help to drop fully the identification with Maya. I need help to drop fully the identification with Maya, the one who is affected by it. I feel much confusion and sadness, even that I am not honoring or that I am hiding a false intention of leaving identification,' etc., etc. Okay. Do you want to come up and speak about this, Libertad? Libertad, if your mic is functioning, you don't have to, but if it is possible, then we can look together. I don't see you so well. Try to say something, my dear. I don't hear you so far. No, seems like your connection is not so great. I see you're trying with headphones, but no, I don't hear. We'll try again in a few minutes. Yes, let's do that. Okay, Sita has her hand up. You can come in here.

Hello, hello. If I understand you right, I try to speak about my experience if I can, or you may ask questions.

Okay, okay. So you see, what your experience was, let's start with that then. Okay.

Sorry, a little bit excited now. It's like I always knew this. It's not like a new discovery at all. It's just like a remembrance. And while I'm sleeping, before I was born, it is always here. And before I am, before consciousness, before the light even. And even when I try to describe this, even the word 'natural'—I couldn't use the word natural for this because it's even beyond natural. More natural.

It's more natural than... yeah, I like that. I like that. Yeah. Yes, it is. It's very good. It's very good. Now the thing is, the thing to remember in a way is to not remember any of that and just stay with your insight. Because we use that for communication, which is beautiful, no? You expressed very beautifully what your insight was, but the trick the mind will play is to try and get you to hold on to these things—that 'I was always this before I was born' and 'when I'm awake.' You see, then it'll make a sort of theory out of it and it'll feel like it'll become like a new knowledge. But don't allow it to do all of that, you see?

So now it is expressed and then just let go, and then you're back to just the pristine, the pristine heart, you see? Just there. So just like this, very natural it becomes. You see, you're just expressing. It is just like consciousness is playing with these expressions in the world; they play out a bit, you see? Don't give anything the certificate of it being true or something like that, you see? It is just bouncing off sounds or something just for fun. But you see what I'm saying? Because what can happen is that from this insight, we can try and make knowledge, you see? We can try and make knowledge, and that process is just going to make us confused again and make us rely on the wrong tools again. Go to the wrong tools again.

So don't try to make any knowledge out of this simple, pure insight which you're having. It is very pristine in itself, you see? So when asked to communicate like this, then very beautiful these words just naturally arise on themselves, but don't hang on to the content of any of them. Just natural, natural, more natural than natural. You can just let it all fade away. The coming to the discovery is actually the simpler part. The coming to the discovery is actually the simpler part. It's not letting the mind mess it up that is the more complicated one, because it will come with seeming gifts, no? It will say, 'Wow, that was so great, so like wonderful. You just have to, all you have to do now is stay like this.' You see? It's not even great, you see? Not even very good. But it's many times this temptation, and I'm saying to all of us that this kind of temptation can... it will try to sell to you saying, 'No, your only job is to stay like that.' And even in that, it can try to sell you a shape, you see? It can try to sell us a shape of something. So, beautiful, beautiful insight, and just remain empty like that. Just remain empty like that. Very good.

And what I'm saying actually is very simple, but actually is contrary to like everything the seeker ever wanted, okay? Because the seeker wants a culmination of the journey. It wanted a glorious ending, all of that, you see? So it will play all these tricks in our heads and it will try to get us back into from 'seeker' to 'finder' type mode. But you remain empty. Remain empty of all of them, all of you.

Like when I say it's not even great, it's because when we start to say things like it's this or that, it's even not from this place. So it's not that it is great or it's not grace, but it's not great, but it's almost that something else starts to... you are looking from another place to this.

Exactly, exactly. Very nice. Okay, we can go to the next one. So the next one said, 'My dear Father, your pointing is very clear and my seeing has been becoming very clear day by day. Health is also getting so much better due to grace and blessings. My question is, though awareness is always unaffected by this play, there are some things like illness, intoxicants, delusions, etc., that seem to take away from the sense of being, the sense of being aware.' Well, it is not really a sense. The sense of being, we may say, but aware of being aware is not a sense really, you see? So that which is aware of the sense of being in itself is not... you can't even call it a sense, you see?

Now the thing is that even to feel ill, you need it. Even to feel like you're intoxicated, you need it. I'm a teetotaler, so I can't confirm that from my direct belief, by direct experience, but you have to be aware that this is the state of my body-mind, you see? So awareness is not less or more ever. And you cannot, since it's not a play of attention like we had that beautiful conversation, you cannot ever have less of it or more of it, because only things which are in your attention you can have less of or more of.

Next one said, 'Namaste dear Father, when would mind merge in the heart for good, never to arise as the mind again? Please can you please shed some light on this? Thank you so much.' Now see, I've not seen you much before this, so I'm going to just see if you're ready for the sword or the... okay, I'll go easy because I haven't seen you in satsang often. So even the request, you see, any request which is to do with time comes from the mind itself. So what happens is like it is the mind saying, 'But when will the mind go?' You see? The thief, like Bhagavan said, the thief dressed up as the policeman pretending to catch the thief. So this kind of question, if it has to do with time, you let go of it, you see? Think of it as a Master's problem. You don't have to be concerned whether I'm just feeling free for right now or if this freedom will continue forever, you see? All of this concern is about the non-existent anyway.

So all of this, my invitation is for you to let go of everything like this. In one way or the other, it is about coming to like a spiritual culmination, you see, of the spiritual journey, which is what I was talking about in a way where the seeker identity wants an end to that journey so that it can rest in the finder place, you see? Now all of this, you see, if it is in time, no, it is if it is about time, then no, it is the mind, you see? And you recognize it to be the mind, which means that you let go of it, you see? You want to speak something more about this? It's clear? It's clear. Okay.

So right now as you are coming to the end of false conditioning, it is like the end of all of this play of spirituality, everything, you see? Now whatever you take from your intellect, you see—and it may even sound like a very humble request, 'Allow me to be merged forever now, you see, now that you've given me a taste of it, allow me to be merged forever'—but again, it can be a very subtle trick of the mind. Because you realize right now that there is no time, there is no space; they are all emotional, you see? So then sometimes it can come like this saying, 'Yes, yes, now if only I could stay like this, then job done, finish.' You see? Finish, finish, final, final freedom, you see? But then it is the notion of time itself which pulls you out of the Mukti which is just here naturally. Very good. Thank you.

Are we struggling for decades and even lifetimes, you see? Actually, if you're struggling, you're not searching for reality. The minute we start the endeavor to search for it, we've already gone too far, you see? And let me—and you heard this from me before—but let me recap for everyone: what are the methods with which we can search? You see, the methods with which we can search are not the methods by which we can recognize, you see? This is the bane of the spiritual seeker, and my whole attempt in a way for the last many, many, maybe at least two, three years is to try and take out the struggle element from this spiritual searching. Because the struggle element is actually a fallacy, that we can never discover God or the...

And you heard this from me before, but let me recap for everyone: what are the methods with which we can search? You see, the methods with which we can search are not the methods by which we can recognize. You see, this is the bane of the spiritual seeker, and my whole attempt in a way for the last many, many—maybe at least two, three years—is to try and take out the struggle element from this spiritual searching. Because the struggle element is actually a fallacy, that we can never discover God or the Self using those methods, you see.

So, let's look at this, right? By which way can you struggle, and especially when you say struggle for years? You see, so if I tell you that, you know, when you find the Self, you will find it like there are spectacles lying, you see, and I was walking in the Sahara Desert and I left my spectacles there. Once you find them, you have found the Self. You see, that is one way to search. So you start looking in the Sahara Desert, that one day I will have the experience of these spectacles, or I will have the darshan of God or the experience of God, and that will be the culmination of my search, you see.

So then we can go around trying to find God objectively as an experience or a state, and that search—not years, it can last for lifetimes, you see. It can last for a lifetime because if you're trying to measure the height of air, you see, it makes no sense, no? And you can keep trying to do it for years and years and years, but because you're doing it the wrong way, it never comes to fruition, not culmination, you see. So that is the sort of perceptual search for the experience of God, you see. But that will never culminate as reality. You can never find God as an experience or a state, you see.

The second way to struggle is to try and figure it out, like what is happening here, right? In what operating principles does consciousness operate? You see, then you say, "Okay, like this, like this," and we can make various laws—and I don't want to name them, I'll get in trouble—but you can make various ideas of sort of cause and effect, and this leads to this and that leads to that, and try and get a full understanding of the world. And as it happens inevitably, the minute we become confident that I've come up with a good framework for what all of this is and what God is, then something comes and crashes into that and blows it away. And that is the bane of the philosopher.

So all the philosophies have been debated and refuted; the new ones come out and they get debated and refuted. So everything conceptually, you see, is not permanent. You see, that's why I refer to the simple statement by Guru Nanak Ji, or one of the beautiful Sikh Gurus, who just said, "Sochai soch na hovai," which means that you may think and think and think a hundred thousand times, but it'll never be a product of your thinking, you see. So to try and think and to come up with a supreme formula or a unified theory of the universe or something like that, you see, it never—whatever we may conceptualize or rationalize, God will always be beyond that, always be bigger than that, you see.

So we can struggle and say, "It's like this, like this." It's very fair, yes, yes, good, good. Then tomorrow, "No, no, God, I realize this is a trickster, is not fair. Sometimes He's like Ram, sometimes He's like Krishna." So it never—we can never work it out in our heads. But that is the second way to struggle: trying to solve it like an equation, like one day we will discover God like E=mc² or something like that and shout out, "Eureka!" You see, I'm mixing up the scientists, of course, but that's what I'm saying. This is the other way to struggle, you see.

Now, is there a third way to struggle? Like, can you struggle with your intuition? Can you struggle with your heart? Can't struggle, you see. Now the simple point is just to come to it, and not even to come to it actually—just let go of the false is what is needed, you see. Now where is the struggle? If you let go of the first two bowls, as I have said—I don't know if you were there in the beginning of satsang—but as I defined the first two bowls, if you leave those aside, you see, and especially the spiritual desire part, then there is no struggle left. Complete clarity—not conceptually, but complete clarity in your heart about what you are and everything that you need to operate this whole manifest creation, you see. All that intelligence is your very intuitive intelligence.

So then coming back to Kabir Das Ji, so he said instant, no? Instant. You see, in that instant you have left the false. You cannot carry the false into this instant. That's why I say before the sound of the click, you are free, you see. I don't know if you heard this from me before, but very often I've said this: before the sound of the click, you're free, because the false takes time; the truth is apparent here and now, you see. What is the doha? Can you recall for me? Do you know it? Because I'd like to reuse this. Sometimes I have to call out the big guns because everybody doesn't want to listen to me, so I say, "Ah, the great thing said..." Somebody's saying it? What's happening here? I heard some beautiful voice. Where is that from?

Sorry, I was unmuted. I still can't see who that is, but it's fine right there, don't worry. So I felt like you were sharing the doha from Kabir that he was talking... yeah. Oh, look at that. All you need is to... so just a rough translation of paraphrasing, you see: just look for the Self with the right tool, you see, or like I would say, stop using the wrong tools, and then it's just a matter of an instant. The recognition is just a matter of an instant.

So that's the whole thing. And because here, in a way, a lot of struggle happened with trying to understand spirituality before I met my Father. So what happened is that for years I struggled with books, "I Am That," trying to understand what Maharaj was saying, you see, and what Bhagavan was saying, till I came to the instant recognition at Guruji's feet, you see. It all seemed very confusing. So I am a champion at how to struggle. So that's the one gift I want to give all of you, which is to just tell you about it and tell you that this is how you struggle. Like I said, like a simple metaphor: if you're looking for tomatoes, then don't go digging under the ground. So if you're looking for the truth, don't go to your mind; you'll never find it there.

This is another thing I struggle with. Almost there's a compulsive desire. We don't drop the doership. Like, "Today I heard two hours of satsang, I did one hour of meditation." So that sense of satisfaction we get from doership. And in the same doha, Kabir says that... so he dismisses all the practice we get the kick from and satisfaction that today the day was successful spiritually. And you know, to drop that compulsion of meditating more, listening to satsang more, doing more rigorous practice, torturing ourselves in cold—so that doesn't go, that compulsion.

I can relate to this. I was always a terrible practitioner, but I've tried everything. So I know how it goes. For a few weeks this practice seems like it is the best, then another week then that seemed like it is the best. And at least here there was not much consistency in the practices. But I would like to just submit to you that he is not really speaking about the practice per se, you see. Because in this waking state there is bound to be movement, what we call activity. You are doing, you see. It's bound to show up. Even if you decide not to do anything, then you'll still be sitting or lying down; that is also an activity. You know, somebody can come and tell you, "Why are you just sitting?" You see, "Why are you sitting around?" as if you're doing that activity.

So it is unavoidable to, you see, when there is the waking state, then this realm of activity is bound to show up. So it's not about the activity in itself; it is about identifying as the practitioner, you see. So the trouble is not the practice, you see, because you could practice anything or nothing and still you could be identified. And the trouble is with the identification and not with the content. Whether the hand is moving like this or like this or like this or like this, it doesn't really matter for the Self, for the maintenance of this body, and even for the maintenance of the body-mind, which is like the maintenance of the health of this body and to have some peace of mind because nobody likes a troubled mind. These things have been presented to us by the sages and there is nothing wrong in them per se, you see. It is just when we identify as the practitioner who's making progress or not making progress, you're judging yourself on these kind of ephemeral things, that is when the trouble comes.

Yes, but your Self... there's never going to be a product of activity or inactivity. You can try and be as inactive as you want or you can try and be as active as you want; it's not going to be a product of either. So what is the deciding factor whether a spiritual practice or inquiry or introspection will result in a building of a more spiritual ego or it will dissolve that ego?

Yes, that's a good question. So if you find—like most practices actually work, I have to say, you see. If you're watching your breath, mindfulness, you see; if you're chanting, very pristine practice—most of them, they work, you see. But what happens is post. The trouble is mostly post, which is saying, "Yes, yes, it was very good today. I should make sure I do this every day," you see. So this is where the practitioner identity is built. The mind gives you all of this, either pride saying, "Very, very good, this is so nice," you see, like this, or "Today you were not in full form, you did not even come to Turiya for a second," you see. All of these kind of... "And yesterday your heart chakra was vibrating big, today not even one whimper it was there," you see.

So that is when the trouble comes, you see. So not the practice in itself. If you take any practice prescribed by a master who is free, it is bound to work. It is bound to work for that moment, in that moment of time, you see. But what we do with it post facto is the troublesome aspect, you see. So if you enjoy something—if whatever you enjoy doing, Kriya Yoga, Pranayama, whatever, chanting, mindfulness, whatever—there's no trouble with that, you see. But if you're drawing conclusions about yourself on that basis, that is the trouble, like trying to measure the spiritual progress or lack of it. No problem. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Okay, I see Ramanpreet next. Ramanpreet, I don't hear you yet. I see your lips moving but don't hear the words. Not yet. In Zoom there's an option to test your audio. If you go to the Zoom thing, you can just test and record it and try again. No, no, he was not muted; he was unmuted for a bit. You want to try again? Now you're muted. I have to ask you to... okay. No, we don't hear you still. Okay, we can come back in a bit, my dear. Thank you. No, again your lips are moving, my dear, but we don't hear you.

Okay, I see Kunal next. Kunal can come. I'm taking... yeah. Yes, so we should be able to hear you if you try to say something.

Oh, hello. Hello. Hi. Hey, it's been a while, Father. Very nice to see you again. I was just, you know, yesterday I was watching some of your old satsang videos on YouTube and I think it was either you or if I'm not mistaken maybe Guruji who was saying that something about you're not suffering, you're not experiencing suffering, you're suffering your experiencing, and how that there's no entity here who is suffering anything. And when he said those words, Father, I felt almost like a very impersonal kind of blip, like a second where there was no person here and sensations were still arising but it wasn't hitting anything. It wasn't hooking onto anything. There was nothing to hook onto. The same thoughts were coming and sensations were arising, but there was nothing that was able to like grab a hold of it, if you know what I mean.

I was experiencing that there's no entity here who is suffering anything. And when he said those words, Father, I felt almost like a very impersonal kind of blip, like a second where there was no person here. Sensations were still arising, but it wasn't hitting anything. It wasn't hooking on to anything; there was nothing to hook on to. The same thoughts were coming and sensations were arising, but there was nothing that was able to like grab a hold of it, if you know what I mean. And it was a very peaceful experience, a state. But I know you always say that the Self is not an experience or not a state; it's always here. So I'm a little just confused on if it's always here, then how did that experience come and go?

Yeah, so Vedanta 101 is that everything that can come will go, you see. Everything that comes and goes is not real, and it's just Maya's illusion. Now, what can happen is—and this can be confusing, so I'm happy you brought this up—is that sometimes the byproducts of the instantaneous spiritual insight, you see, the byproducts of this can seem very spacious. You see, it can seem like, 'Oh, where am I? What is this? Is it always like this? What is happening?' It can feel like that, and that is beautiful. It can be enjoyed, you see. But what happens is many times, you see, somebody would have been with me in satsang for a few months, maybe three months, and then when they're about to leave they say, 'It was very nice, Anantaji, but you know what happened is I had an experience three years ago and I was just waiting for that experience to come back, and it just didn't come back. So I want to come back soon to satsang.' And I don't know why it always happens when they're leaving and we don't have much time to really investigate that. But so what happened? We made the byproducts into the main thing. So we made the prasad into the darshan.

So this is the offering of the Lord's grace when you have this pristine insight about yourself, that it seems to sometimes become like when you can have experiences of great bliss, many such pristine experiences. But enjoy them as they come, but don't attach to any of them and don't say that is when I was myself, you see, or 'myself was there then and then it went away somehow and the person is back here now.' Some idea like that. The person is always only a fictional entity; it is never a real thing, never. And when I say real, I'm even talking about not even being Vedantic about it; I'm just talking about the tangibility of manifest experience. So this is never like—it's never even like this couch that I'm sitting on. So don't rely on any byproducts or any feeling, no matter how sublime or spacious that feeling may be. Don't say that that was it and I need to stay like that, you see. So you came to this like a satori moment where something just became no-mind and you see, just you couldn't find a reference point to yourself. You couldn't find a place to place yourself, and that can feel stupendous. It can feel very nice. But—and I'm sorry I'm saying this if it is still there—but this too shall pass, you see. This too shall pass. It's not there anymore, but thank you, thank you. But that insight, your truth, your reality is always there. That is why you can confirm that you are aware now. You don't hear it, you don't have to think about it, and yet it is apparent. Your truth, your self-knowledge is that simple. Raman, you're ready now? Okay, let's try.

I don't know, can you hear me now? Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for giving me a chance to come up again. I was listening to your satsang today morning and there was a feeling of a lot of love and devotion and respect because I really like your innovative tools to help us, you know, come to our own Self. So your inner guidance about those four bowls, I think that was very, very powerful because I could not find anything else which I could put in the bowls. And naturally, you know, I was there. I think there's just one fear which comes up, which is that if you just are here—because whatever is happening, even when the mind is telling you or mind is helping you to go in that space, you can see that everything which is being spoken, perceived, everything is in front of you because there's a substratum against which everything is perceived and heard and felt.

So the fear is that if you just stay in that space, is that enough? And I tell you why I'm asking this question, because it was a very playful way of watching the satsang and there was no spiritual frustration actually; there was a lot of joy which arose and a lot of playfulness. But then when I was sitting and thinking about my practical life as to, okay fine, what should I do next in my life? Because actually I'm at the crossroads of my career where I would like to take a next jump in my career, and then I think, you know, the spirituality sometimes comes in between and says, 'Who's the one who's thinking? Who's the one who has goals?' So I felt that spirituality should actually help the person do in this world what he would like to do, or maybe it should not be an impediment. So I think Advaita sometimes goes against me when I start questioning this point that who wants to do more in life? Are you not okay the way you are?

So two questions: one is the fear of if I just let it be, will I be guided in the right direction? And secondly, how to inculcate spirituality in your career? And you would like to do things and you would like to improve yourself—you know that that is not your true Self, but on the exterior world, because when you are working in a corporate, in a career, you would like to improve yourself. So self-growth is what I'm interested in. So is that something which a person should aspire for, or should inquire that who is this who would like to achieve materialistic goals?

So I'll give you another tool for that, okay? It's a simple one. So you inquire into whatever makes you suffer, okay? Now if something is not making you suffer, don't inquire into it. It's fine. How's that going?

That's fantastic. You're enjoying your career, you're enjoying how life is going, all of that, then don't have to inquire who is enjoying life and whose career is this. Don't bother with any of that. But if something is causing you trouble, use it as a thorn to remove that thorn. That's it. Then no impact, no impediment at all. And if there's suffering, it'll take care of it.

But you know, because after meeting you, my obsession with enlightenment has gone away, right? And there is no yardstick now.

That is the best marketing for satsang! Satsang asking the question about your spiritual growth and the yardstick.

So then you have this fear that if you just let go and you just be and, you know, whenever you feel like attending the satsang you do it—there's no compulsion, there is no practice as such—so how would I know that I'm doing the right stuff? I'm not getting lost in the way other people are, you know, so to say, so to call people who are not spiritually inclined. They are leading the life. I'm not trying to just distinguish or trying to earn, you know, distinguish to say, 'I am more spiritual than the other person.' But my question is that then how do you measure that—not measure, but how would you know that you are going in the right direction and you're not just taking everything very lightly?

Yeah, in a way it's the same thing. If you're not suffering, you're fine. But people who are not spiritually inclined, they're also enjoying themselves, but they have not tasted that. So many times, you know, we can have this kind of thing where at work or something like that, somebody will tell me that, 'I'm not coming to satsang. I can't relate to the kind of things you talk about. I like you at work; I don't like you how you are as Ananta' and all of that stuff they can't relate with. So, 'Am I doing something wrong? Should I make sure I come?' I say no, it's okay, you see. If something brings you one day naturally, maybe there is too much suffering in life or maybe there is a longing for like a deeper truth which is not constrained by birth and death, or questions like, 'What is the purpose of all of this if I am going to die one day anyway?' If this kind of thing arises in you, then you're very welcome to come. Till then, if you're just fine with how life is, it's completely fine. There is no—in fact, there is hardly much phenomenal advice available here anyway. And whatever phenomenal advice here is available is usually quite bad in itself as well, so it goes counter to the outcome we were hoping for many times. So I would not—in fact, I would not recommend it to everyone to come to satsang like this, actually just the opposite.

Because these questions about what's the purpose of life and things about birth and death has been always very profound in my mind. And that is the reason why when I spoke to you last time, I said, 'Spiritually, what about spiritual frustration?' What I'm trying to ask you is that when you don't have an inculcated practice and you don't have a practice of spirituality—yes, I enjoy coming to satsang, I enjoyed listening to you, to Mooji, and to all the enlightened masters—but if you do not have a routine or you don't have a practice, then how can you assure yourself that actually you are not—you'll not be lost in wilderness?

Yeah, you won't be. Because at least in your case—many could be lost for some time and then come back to this—no, but in your case, you've tasted blood. You won't go far. It's fine. That's fine. You got the essence of my answer?

Yes, yes. Thank you so much. It's so nice to, you know, I was just thinking that you have a problem and you just died in a sage. Thank you, thank you.

One says the Zen koan: 'If you have nothing to do, what will you do?' I like it. The next one says, 'Namaskaram Father.' Namaste, my dear. 'I am going through a tough phase in my profession. Please bless me with enough strength to get through this.' Okay. Then next one says, 'What are the four goals?' Not four goals, there are four bulls. So you have to watch a recording. You have to watch a recording; it's fairly elaborate now. So last—even last time was this, either last one or this one. You can watch again, my dear, you'll be fine. Next one says, 'Dear Father, at the moment with all the free time I have and a natural disinterest happening for worldly phenomena, I sometimes find myself going from resting to depression where everything seems pointless and I don't find the point in doing something. I'm a bit confused and if I'm not self-sabotaging, is there more to this?' You want to come up, India? If you could raise your hand, I can find you faster. Ah, there you are.

Namaste. Can you hear me?

I can hear you well, yes. Tell me fresh, my dear, what's happening?

It's like I find myself going from trust that I'm just having to rest and that this process is just happening—it's a kind of a very passive, stagnant energy that's arising where I cannot seem to move myself. And there's a very thin line between that and I have a feeling that actually when I'm becoming that passive, I'm actually making myself more tired. And there's just this constant kind of—I know it's thought—that like, 'Am I doing it right? Am I not?' Like kind of self-sabotaging. And yeah, I see me, I feel even now I'm really in my mind like trying to kind of understand it and wanting to do it right.

What is unfolding for you, you cannot do it wrong. You cannot do it wrong. And the Self that is becoming more and more apparent to you cannot be sabotaged, cannot be sabotaged. So this idea that you're impeding your growth or you're impeding your transcendence is just an idea. And this has nothing to do actually with the realm of activity or inactivity. If you like, for the body-mind, the body is feeling a bit method, you can you can sense it now, you can see it.

And wanting to do it right, what is unfolding for you, you cannot do it wrong. You cannot do it wrong. And the Self that is becoming more and more apparent to you cannot be sabotaged. Cannot be sabotaged. So this idea that you're impeding your growth or you're impeding your transcendence is just an idea. And this has nothing to do actually with the realm of activity or inactivity, if you like, for the body-mind. If the body is feeling a bit method, you can sense it now, you can see it's like a bit more weighty, or the mind is feeling a bit heavy and you know, full of like this sort of kind of energy, then there's no harm to just do some practice. Do some yoga, do whatever you feel, you know, just any simple sort of practice to help the body-mind instrument is not a bad thing to do. But don't feel that that has anything to do with what you are or who you are. It's just that this instrument is there. It's a beautiful instrument, you see. It's a beautiful instrument which is a great gift from the Divine. So there's no harm taking care of it a bit, you see. Like a car which is a bit rusty, there's no harm maintaining it a bit. But don't come to any conclusion that this way is better for the Self or that way is better for the Self. Always, there's no—the Self is not in opposition to anything at all. So it's fine. You just follow your heart moment to moment and it will guide you. Just follow your heart moment to moment; it will guide you.

Like you could have an intention in your head that I will do the most rocking yoga practice today, but when the time comes, it's just like your heart is saying no. Of course, not as an Advaita excuse or something. You can recognize that sometimes the mind itself will play both ways, you see. But I'm talking about transcending both those ways and just listening to your heart. Just listening to your heart, which is available to you. I have the sense that this heart guidance is available to you. So you can rely on that, you can trust that.

And yeah, I see him kind of... I find myself like going from like a deep letting go to like a point where I feel it's gonna happen, and then our minds like, 'Oh no, I have to understand it.' And then I go really in this like tension. And I even had the first 45 minutes of the satsang, I was just thinking, thinking, thinking. I couldn't get out of it.

It does happen sometimes. Even that you don't have to worry about. It's just like in satsang, you see, a lot of stuff can get released. And many of these things get released as thought patterns or ideas or conditions. So that's why many times I say, instead of saying it was coming, we can just say it was going. So, first 25 minutes of satsang, so much of my thought patterns, they were going. Yeah, it's true. That's a way of seeing it.

So I just want to say something about this thing of everything seeming pointless. And many times what can happen is that as we are coming to deep insights about ourselves, then the mind can also start taking this position, which you can feel like is in concurrence with what we are discovering. And it can create a sort of position where everything seems meaningless or pointless, you see. But what I'm going to say to you is very subtle, but it's very simple also at the same point. Even to say that something is pointless is to give it a point, you see. What is the point of everything? It is that it is pointless. Like when we say everything is meaningless, even that is a meaning that we have given to everything, saying that what is the meaning of everything? It means that it is meaningless. Easy, correct? So we have taken one meaning, which is that everything is meaningful, and we've applied now a new meaning, that it is meaningless. But both are meanings, you see. Both are still meaning. Yeah. To let go is to let go of it. This is the point of life, to... this is pointless. Let go of both: that life is meaningful or it is meaningless. Let go of both. Then you meet life in your heart, where the heart does not need life to have a meaning or a purpose. It doesn't need to make a judgment or a conclusion about any of these things. And anyway, the life is too broad for our tiny intellect to be able to figure it out, whether it is meaningful or meaningless. It cannot do it. And so it oscillates like a pendulum between these two ends, you see, because that's all it can do. And it tries to convince you that it is one of these two, but it is neither.

Yeah, that makes sense. And also that... don't spend too much time diagnosing yourself. Yeah, like 'This is my state now, this is affecting to me, this is what I should be doing,' or 'I'm doing a lot of that or not doing enough of that.' Don't worry about all of this so much. Don't worry about all of this. Allow it to improve just naturally. Don't have a lot of like judgments about yourself.

And of course, if life creates the way and things open up a bit in a few weeks, then both you and Govind, then Dave if he wants to, all of you are very welcome to come and visit. I'll be very happy.

I would love to. The day that I can go to India, I will definitely come over with Govind. Just waiting for everything to calm down a bit. Yeah, but I would love to come. Thank you.

Very welcome. Thank you. Okay, go to the next one. Ah, this is what has happened to Sadhana. He changed his look completely. Um, you know, okay. Oh, or crying. That's the best, you know. I always trust your words and oh, they stress you, but in a way there was such a strong urge to understand everything, you know. And at this point it seems that something was searching all my life. And when I left India and there was a... oh, I got it, you know, I understand, you know. I just love you so much. Namaste. Thank you. Thank you. You're the most amazing interaction. Love you.

Okay, then, then, then, then what to say after that? Some requests to come up still. Ladia, you can raise your hand so I see you. Oh, there you are.

My hand was going up and down and I wasn't quite sure if it's my mind or not. What is the theme? I'm not quite sure, but I know that there is kind of no need for me to suffer anymore during my day. That's what I get. And I just... I love the demonstration with the four balls and need not to conclude. And I guess I joined now during satsang. After that, I suffered like thinking I don't understand or something.

Yeah, because that is the human condition, unfortunately, where we cannot just let what is just be what is. We feel like we need to have a handle on what is by being able to rationalize it, by being able to understand it. So we do it with our life, with all our relationships and everything, but we try to do it with the Self, you see. Now the Self is so ungraspable to the mind, you see, that it can be so frustrating that 'Why can't I understand this?' you see. And what is it about? It's not about 'Are you aware now?' because that is clear. Of course I'm aware now, you see. It is a little bit...

I just love now when you say 'I am.' I'm not so clear.

Okay, okay, good. So let's pause here because this is a good point to look. So just innocently like a child, you are hearing these words. Yes? So the hearing is a perception. You are aware of this perception, isn't it? Yes. That's it. That's it. You see, this awareness you do not see, you do not smell, you do not taste. You see, it's beyond. Like you can... you're aware of sight where you're watching this body on this computer in front of you or phone in front of you. That is sight. You can smell food from the kitchen if there is food in the kitchen. You can hear, you see, these words, or you can hear sounds from the street. You can touch the computer, you can touch your hands, you see, you can touch them. You can taste, easy. You can taste when you eat things, you can taste. But you are aware of all of these perceptions. But this awareness is not sight or hearing or touch or taste or smell. It's none of these, you see. And everyone knows this. Everyone knows this. But when we try to know it here, or especially when we try to figure out what it means, you see, that is when the trouble comes, you see. And then the mind will use everything, like it will create doubt about the most simple things, you see. 'Are you aware now?' Mind will say, 'I don't know. Am I just faking it? Am I aware? How can I actually know?' So it tries to pull you out of that innocence. Tries to pull you out of that innocence into like doubting yourself, you see. Doubting whether that which is being said is like the simplest thing. You will say, 'You don't even know that. Like, what is going to happen to you?'

You see, all this... for example, when you say about the intuition. Like the intuition, yeah, I don't know what it is, intuition exactly.

And that's why sometimes not to use the word intuition. So let's just say that when you're not trying to use the mind to discover yourself and when you're not trying to use some sort of perception to discover yourself, you just find yourself. It just happens, you see. All that is needed to come to the truth is to let go of the false. You don't need intuition. Let's say like that for the moment.

So is it just... how does it happen then? And you say 'just,' you see, 'just.'

So instead of 'just,' we use the term, fancier term, called intuition. That's it. You see, it's the most natural, it's the most effortless. If you feel like you are taking some effort to use your intuition, it is not intuition.

I'm just empty if I... yeah.

Yes, that's it. That's it. If you empty, that is it. But somehow, somehow there is like... somehow holding myself and trying to stay as the Self and like using like...

Can't do any of that. Don't have to do any of that. So when the masters say 'remain as the Self,' they are only saying don't take yourself to be the not-self. That basically means don't take yourself to be anything. Remain empty. That's why remaining empty is to remain as the Self, you see. Otherwise, how would you remain as the Self? We can only let go of the false, no? The truth is always the truth in itself. You cannot do it or be it. It just is. So whatever the mind is convincing you that there is this problem, you see, just let it go. That is surrender, you see. So either you can say that 'I have this problem and that's why I'm not there yet,' or it can make conclusions about how 'I'm there,' you see, all of these things. So let go of both ends. Let go of both ends of this pendulum. Don't worry. Even now, even now it was like saying that 'I don't know if I'm really empty if these feelings are coming in' and like... yeah, yeah, it's okay. So this will naturally also happen. Some of this will naturally also happen. That's why we have satsang quite regularly. So the pointings are the same. I've been saying the same thing for eight years and just in different ways and many times in the same ways also. So just because I realized that the play of conditioning to play out and for all of this to be sort of vomited out of ourselves can seem like it happens in the play of time, that's why satsang is also quite regular. So you don't have to worry because it is not your job to worry. Thank you. It's simple like that. Simple like that, you see. Simpler, simpler, simpler, you see. If you find yourself getting into some complex problem or some like 'Is this like this and then but like that,' just leave it alone. It has nothing to do with the truth. It is just intellectual games. It's just intellectual games. And actually it is just mind attacks. Even our efforts to resolve these sort of spiritual problems, we don't realize, but it's just mind attacks. No nothing mental can be resolved mentally. Nothing that is mental can be resolved mentally. It just has to be let go. I'm sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, India. Thank you very much.

Okay, I see Maria and then Chanda.

Namaste, Father. I put my hand up because I've been having a lot of resistance to come up since the last time I spoke to you. I couldn't even find the hand up. I put it wrongly. I cannot find the question you asked.

Spiritual problems, we don't realize, but it's just mind attacks. No, nothing mental can be resolved mentally. Nothing that is mental can be resolved mentally; it just has to be let go. I'm sorry. Thank you, thank you, thank you, India. Thank you very much. Okay, I see Maria and then Chanda.

Namaste, Father. I put my hand up because I've been having a lot of resistance to come up since the last time I spoke to you. I couldn't even find the hand up; I put it wrongly. I cannot find the question you asked me. And during this whole satsang, it's been like watching without a feeling, you know, like a whole screen. And it's only in here; the rest, it's nothing. But in here, it's like it's playing. And I've been trying to say, like, it's coming and it's going, but it's not leaving, you know? And it's been having like putting like I have a sense of that it's arrogant, like really stuck in here, like lack of acceptance of life.

I'm with you. I'm with you, my dear.

And there is no anger, you know? Like, there is sadness, but it's in here. I don't feel sadness in here, but it's like, no, I mean, it's arrogance. Like, no, I don't want to live, you know? I want to stay here. And I cannot see you, Father. I cannot see me now.

Oh, no, no. I think it will come out. No, that's fine. So, it's good. It's good you're noticing all of these things. But notice, I'll give you a tip, which is that we can just notice without the narrative, you see? So now we can try again if you like, where you just tell me what is here right now in your experience. Like, what are you perceiving at this moment?

I perceive like a kind of like, I could say like iron sticks like that, like right here, just like giving like a lot of pressure, like giving the sense of a lot of pressure. And it's like, I'm here and I'm not leaving, you know? So, I cannot feel like the pushing in the head. And there's a good thing, I'm going to be here and I'm not leaving.

Well, it's not saying the word. It's just like, I just sense it. That it's just a sense. It's not like words. It's just here, you know? That I have the sense that it's not going to go. So, what is the source of this sense? Because one thing is for certain: that it cannot be your intuition telling you that, you see? So, it cannot be an intuitive sound, you see? Then the only other voice there is, is the mind.

Yeah, well, is that I had that belief that, you know, like the intellectual, like the three bowls, like all of them, it's fine. But the perceiving one is like, that's the one. The one that you're perceiving is the one that stays more, you know, instead of like the words. The words, I can... I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying.

It's okay. It's okay. And it is never like when I'm talking about the first bowl, I'm just talking about the knowledge that we think we have gained through our perception. It is not in resistance to any perception coming or going. All perception can come and go. So, we are not trying to push aside anything that may be perceived. We are only not trying to give it a meaning or saying, 'Oh, this is what this means, this is what that is,' you see? Because in that meaning-making, usually we are making a 'me' who is the central character of the story. That's why it was easy. You don't have to push away. In the waking state, you are bound to perceive them. Even if you close your eyes, you will still perceive darkness. It's still a perception, isn't it? So, the point is not to avoid any perception. All perception can come and go, but the labels, the interpretation, what we think it means—all of that can be let go.

I do have that thing that, like, to not accept certain things that I'm perceiving.

Yeah, yeah. Because maybe all perceptions that are appearing, none of the perceptions that are appearing can either do anything to the Being in which they are appearing. Like the movie: no matter how violent the movie is, you see, it can be super violent, but it cannot hurt the screen on which it is being played. In the same way, whatever may be appearing to you cannot hurt the space of your Being, you see? And there is no chance that it can hurt that which is aware of the screen. Okay? And that is why we are not so much... you know, mostly the fear, it comes from a place of fear that if this perception comes, then I'm in trouble in some way, or I'm stuck, or this means that I'm not making progress or I'm not free, depending on the identity we're playing with. Yeah, usually it is only the meaning which creates the trouble. And remember that we are not talking about making everything meaningless, because even that is a meaning. Like as I was telling Melissa earlier, that we're not saying, 'Oh, everything is so meaningless,' you see? 'All of you, meaningless.' Not saying that, because even that is meaning we're giving. You're giving the meaning that it is meaningless. Empty of all of that. Empty of all of that interpretation, you see? Just meeting life so full, so full and so open that there is no attention or space left to label and to see, 'This is what this is, this is what that is.' Okay? In everything, all this contraction—contraction or expansion—expansion, and like subtle voices saying, 'I am not leaving, not going anywhere.' See, then because we realize that my Being cannot be hurt, then everything can come. In fact, it may even become that everything actually is a child of consciousness, and therefore it's your child. Whether it is 'I'm not leaving' or 'It's so amazing, Om Shanti,' it doesn't matter. Everything is your child then, because we are not picking and choosing anymore. I sometimes joke like this, no? I say, what can appear in this realm of perception that can come and slap your awareness? Nothing. Nothing. It can't even make a tiny scratch, no, forget about slap.

I guess I take it and I identify with it.

No, yes. And to identify is to make meaning, is to make a conclusion. Like, without a conclusion, try to identify. Like, identify with something. Identify with this, but don't make a conclusion. Like, if you stare at it hard enough, 'I had a shawl like this three years ago,' you see? 'It's so beautiful, and when I went to India, this is what happened,' or wherever. You see, that's how we identify. But this thing in itself is not saying, 'I mean this' or 'I mean that,' you see? Mind was playing like that, like you're not putting meaning into anything, this is like a movie. But it was putting meaning. But it was even in its spiritual-sounding statements, it is still trying to lure you in as an identification.

Oh, it's... I'm just putting it under your feet because I really cannot do it. And I know I cannot do it, like in a very deep way, you know? But I do want to get rid of my arrogance. So, if it's the will of God and your will, may arrogance be gone forever. It's a very good idea. I love you. Thank you.

Thank you. It's a beautiful report because if you were filled to the brim with arrogance, then you could not say, 'Rid me of my arrogance.' So already it is good. Guruji's grace is already working. It's very good.

Always under your grace. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much.

Okay. Father, that's what I want to talk to you about. Father, I'm finding it hard to sit inside.

What do you mean? You are... where are you now?

You know, no, Father. I'm getting too many mind attacks, so I keep stepping out and walking outside. I find it difficult to sit in a room and just keep sitting. So, either I walk up and down my flat or, better still, I just move out. Either go to a park or just walk up and down the road.

Nice. So, see if you can describe it to me. Like, don't explain it to me, just describe it to me in the sense of, just in a pristine way, what is your perceptual experience when you're sitting at home?

Mind attack, definitely, Father. So, a lot of thoughts are coming. Does that mean like... and great, great emotions, Father. I see great regret, remorse. So, attacking from one side to the other. Decisions that have to be taken, particularly when it comes to money or business. So again, great emotions and the anxiety that comes with it. Then I try some meditation, I try satsang, I listen, and just an anxiety to get up and get out. This is the urge. If I start self-inquiry, then I start feeling low, like I'm... that's what you just said, like I feel like I'm going to go low and get depressed. So, to get myself up, I will get up and say, 'Okay, now walk, walk,' you know, 'snap out of it.'

It's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to go for a walk if you're just finding yourself caught up in this kind of thing. It's a nice thing. So, I'm going to... I'm praying for you in my heart and all my blessings are there. But I feel it's time for you to make a visit and independently.

Oh, thank you, Father. What else may be happening? Your responsibilities and things... it may be good to come for a bit at least.

Yes, yes, Father. Oh, if you call me, I'll definitely come.

Yes, I've been calling for a long time.

Oh, I'm coming then. I'm coming. Thank you. Thank you, Father. Thank you for your grace and your blessing. And Father, some decisions have to be taken before I come to Bangalore. Please bless the immediate wishes.

My blessings. Thank you. But can we handle two Jyotimas?

Yes, Father, you can handle a dozen at least.

Thank you, Father. Thank you. Okay, Meera wants to come. I see that her workshop started. I felt like it should have been done by now. You say you're going to the workshop for a week?

Don't ask, Father. It's never-ending, like the same day. Sunday, because it was quite full-on, you know? And just even coming up, I was feeling like, you know, I don't want to be seen in front of the sangha and just this, you know, this typical kind of thing that I've been carrying so long. I just want to, you know, take this chance to kind of just put it out because it's all full-on from everywhere, Father. And so much was happening, and I have still tomorrow and the after left, and I just felt like I want to expose. And I'm grateful that it's coming, you know, because staying with you, somehow it was just like everything's like in a comfort zone. And I'm grateful that I was shaken up and, at the same time, Father, really wanted to come in front of you.

Very good. So, what is the most full-on notion?

Just by the expectation that it would go so good and, you know, like, 'This is how it will be.' And also, like, living up to some kind of image and all of that, like, just got crushed. And in the end, I just let go and it's all good now, you know? I was really trying to hold up this image, you know, which I was also noticing when I put up my hand and put it down twice because I didn't want the sangha to also see, or I don't want, you know, I don't want to expose something. And it was the same here also, Father, I felt, you know, and just trying to be someone, you know?

Right. Sometimes these things come and we get free from so much garbage. We get free from so much. It's like a proper cleanup, you know? Sometimes the same things could take years to go, but these events are needed at times to just chop off a lot of all the image and all these things. So, of course, we may say that we are grateful at the moment also, but that gratitude just deepens as we go along. You just see what gifts we got in these tough-seeming times, you see? And where there were blind spots or identity hiding or new identity getting emerging, so all of that, it's great grace that gets nipped.

Okay. I love you so much. I want to take out my heart and your Father. Thank you, especially when we're crying. Thank you, Father. It's just so good, so good. I was dying to come. I just finished my session and quickly ran and shut myself in the room, and I just wanted to come in front of you.

Just the good news is, it sounds like you're not going to become a sadhu and go and just leave us all.

Not at all. You didn't give chance for that. You really, like, kept me in check. So much hidden, like teacher-teacher, this thing was there, like my students and my the ones who should, you know...

Especially when we're crying. Thank you, Father. It's just so good, so good. I was dying to come. I just finished my session and quickly ran and shut myself in the room, and I just wanted to come in front of you. Just the good news is, it sounds like you're not going to become a sadhu and go and just leave us all.

Not at all. You didn't give a chance for that. You really kept me in check so much. Hidden, like, teacher-teacher this thing was there, like my students and the ones who should, you know, everybody who I thought should value me—the 'me, me'—then those were the ones I actually sent something from, and it was like breaking my bones. I really felt like that. And I'm just so happy that there's no space for the mind to really, you know, figure out stuff. I can't operate from that level.

Take your time. Thank you.

Oh, it's very good, yeah. And come, come home soon. We're waiting for you, all of us. Okay, my child, bless you guys. Thank you.

Okay, I see Sumaira next. Hi, Father. Hello. And I know it's getting, I know it's getting really late. I actually wanted little Zayn, who's growing up really quickly, I wanted him to see you.

It can't be! Wow, he's grown much. That's fantastic. Are you complaining about us? I think he's complaining about us. He's complaining about me with my beard. Now, if we weren't still locked down with COVID, he would have seen you by now. So I thought maybe quickly to get him to say hi.

It's actually Zerain trying to put on clothes, that's what he's doing. He's crying. Just stay quick. Hi, Father, how are you?

Good, good. It's true when people say that it takes a minute to raise a baby.

So, Father, thank you. Thank you so much. We don't want to keep you waiting for so long. It's been a long satsang. We love you very, very, very much, and Zayn will hopefully come and see you very soon with your grace, all three of us.

I'm delighted by the idea, and delighted by the idea, and so much love. It's a gift to us. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Well, Grandpa is waiting to see him.

Yes, yes, I am too. That's his version of, that's the version of 'now, now, now' that... yes, yes, yes. Is the best. The best thing is every moment is, you know, it's a different emotion, it's a different mood, and he's growing up really fast. Whoever sees him can tell that, you know, we obviously can't tell so much, but every day we've been around him completely. So this whole lockdown has been amazing that way, to spend so much time with him. But now it's just for him to see you, that's something that we're really waiting for.

Wonderful. Yes, lockdown has had its strange gifts. You got so much lockdown. My son also came, you know that, from America in March. He just left two days ago. So we got 11 months with him full on after he went to America.

So was he happy about it? Was he happy about it?

By the end, he was not so looking forward to going because here all the luxury, there he'll have to do this and wash the clothes and all of that again. But he was happy to meet his friends and resume his college life.

Yes, yes, yes. It was so nice to see photos of four of you together and so good that you got that time. Please give all our love to the family, to the Sangha there, all our love, all of it. Put on the zoom in on the phone in the room because everybody is so excited to see Zayn. So yeah, Zayn, can you give a smile? Do you know how to give a smile? Can you give a smile to everybody and say, 'See you soon, love you dear family, we'll see you soon'?

You see that, Father? All these expressions. So hopefully he won't have grown up too much before we get him to you. Hopefully.

This is so amazing because so moment to moment. Thank you so much, Father. We love you so, so, so much. Thank you for this time.

Thank you, thank you so much. Very good.

Thank you so much. I won't take much of your time and Sangha time. It's beautiful to see everybody and yeah, I think I want to thank you for all your work and also my sisters in Sangha who offered so much support. And I think all that was felt during the last retreat, which was much more profound for me. Oh, and I also wanted to, I guess, follow up from our last conversation when I think it was quite obvious that I'm not willing to surrender anything.

I don't remember anything like this.

It's that, it's good that you don't remember, but things that I didn't... you asked me three things that I want to put at your feet or three things that I want to give up, and I couldn't. All the things that came up in my mind, which is good, things that belong probably in the truth side of things, so not to be left aside. But I think another one of the things, I tried to let something go by myself and I kind of took the pride that I was able to. But I guess today was quite obvious that I didn't end with any opportunity. I start clinging on to it again, and it's in regards to control and I guess expectations about Ana's therapy. And I'd like to put it at your feet.

Thank you. All my blessings, all my blessings to all of you. You okay? Thank you, thank you. I'm always with you. I'm always with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, there's nothing that any of you could ever do that would make me like want to leave you or forsake you for anything. I'm always, I'm always with you, always.

And I miss India very much.

Come, come when all of you come whenever you can. It's also so beautiful that so many of you I've just met like this in the lockdown. So the lockdown has also come with many gifts. My things here go to Sahaja Yoga. Thank you, thank you very much. Sweet. Thank you, thank you. Okay, I feel like my throat is completely running out now. I love you all so much. Okay. So thank you all so much for being in satsang. Thank you.