How Do You Know Your Experience? - 11th June 2021

Thank you. So there is a strong identification with the one who have to make a serious decision. And one decision, yes, this one has so much fear from the consequences, from the responsibility of this decision. And this one doesn't know the difference between intuitive insight or between the mind suggestions. Suggestions, yes, yes. And if only the consciousness exists and everything is just the consciousness, can there be a wrong decision? Either it come from the mind or from the intuitive insight? And is there a free will at all for the one who doesn't really exist? Or anything just happening automatically without any control of anybody? So this is the question. And if you, yes, and just for make it like real, I just would like to add what is there happening in my life. So I find some symptoms in my body and I cannot decide to go to doctor or not because I don't really trust them. They are just cutting things itself. They don't really know. Cutting things, yes, you know, I heard you correctly, they're cutting things, right? Yes, yes. And also sometimes they make like false diagnosis as well. They admit it sometimes. And I don't know what is, if I'm going maybe is wrong because they kill me. If I'm not going maybe it's wrong because I kill myself. And but yes, this is behind the question and thank you so much for that.

Good. So let's see. Let's see where we can start. There are many beautiful questions embedded in that one question. One line which really caught my attention was: is there any free will for the one who doesn't exist? You see, you yourself already, you can see that that one doesn't exist, you see. So the dog that is sitting next to you, how many tails does it have? No dogs? Yeah, it doesn't exist, no. So how many tails? No, they are... so in the same way, how much free will does the dog have? So there is no free will at all. How can that which doesn't exist have anything? No, nothing. Yes, yes. So to look at the other part of your question, that then what is, you see, what does exist? And that which exists, just as a framework for understanding, we like to look at it in this way: that that which is being, that which exists as the sense of being, has a sense of existence. In this type of satsang, we call it consciousness or beingness, you see, or God, or divine presence, Satguru presence, whatever you may like to call it. These are the different synonyms we use for that which does exist, like does have a sense of existence, you see.

Now, when you come to this recognition of that presence, you see, you find that that has no boundary. It has no limitation. All perceptions are just appearing and disappearing within it itself, you see. So just like the room in which people can come and go, you see, or furniture, objects can come and go, the room of this in which time comes, space comes, within which all of this play happens, is your very being, you see. So now the question is: so the decision, you see, if it is taken with the mind, is it wrong? Is it... if it is taken with the heart, is it right? You see, that is the question. That then if it all is consciousness, yes, how does it matter whether consciousness is taking the decision from the mind or the heart? It's all consciousness, no? Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly.

So the reason why the masters recommend that you refer to the heart in decision making, or refer to intuition in decision making, is because you are already complaining in that aspect of consciousness of the suffering that you go through when you follow your mind, you see. And then what happens is that as consciousness is playing the game of playing as if it is these aspects, you see, which seem to be different than consciousness, is coming to the recognition of its own true nature, you see, as pure consciousness itself, then plays the game of delusion and plays the game of dropping the delusion. So is the game of delusion a mistake? No, it's a play. It's a Lila. Actually, it is not even that, but the word play comes closest because our human intellect and mind cannot understand the reason or the meaning behind this play of manifestation. We have to call it something. So my favorite thing to call it is a Lila or a play, you see.

So is anything in the play right or wrong? Not from the perspective of consciousness, you see. But from the perspective of somebody who takes themselves to be an individual sufferer who says, 'I have had enough of my suffering,' the advice that consciousness itself gives to another aspect of itself is to say, 'Okay, the way to stop suffering is to not refer to ignorance, to false knowledge, that which you think you know but don't actually know.' So leave that which you think you know, and the source of true knowledge is always available to you, you see. So all of this is a game that consciousness itself is playing. That's why I say satsang is nothing but consciousness speaking with consciousness, you see. In fact, all of this manifest life is nothing but consciousness playing with consciousness.

This one last thing coming up about that: that is why Guruji says that satsang is a rehab by God for God itself to come to the recognition of God. I see. It's a rehab. Why would God need rehab? Because in the pretense, it acts as if it does. 'Oh, I'm suffering so much, I'm scared of death,' or 'I have this particular problem in my relationship,' or 'My work situation is bad,' whatever the variable that we are suffering from may be, you see. So then consciousness, in the design of this play, also designed the alarm clock to come, whether in the form of your inner intuitive voice or in the form of a voice of a master who seems to appear within, outside you provisionally, but is only pointing you within your true intuition, you see. So if you don't take yourself to be what you think you are, or anything that you can think you are, then what problem do you have? So there is nobody who has any problem then. But even that is something you can think, no? Yes. So don't even think that. You don't have to conclude in your mind. Now, where are you?

Okay, let me spell it out a bit more because it can seem like a big leap. In the mind, we can conclude that there is somebody who has free will, you see. Or we can conclude that all there is is God, you see. Or we can conclude that there is nobody, you see. Now I am asking you to drop all of these conclusions, or if there are any other, also drop all of them. You don't need that conceptual understanding. Now, are you lost? No. In fact, you are found, poetically speaking.

But still, but still this decision have to be done and...

Yes, yes. And so good. So this reminded me of the remaining part of your question, you see. You said that it can seem very serious, you see. Now something can happen to you right now or your body right now, it can seem really serious, you see. And so that is, your breath may stop, your heart may stop beating, you see, that which is holding the molecules of your body together may stop holding them together and it may just fall all over the place. So these things I would call serious. Now who is doing all of this? Beating the heart, breathing the breath, and keeping the body together? Yes, yes. So what is the limitation to that one which can do all of this and much more? All of this fantastic play of manifestation, you see? No limitation at all. So it cannot move your feet to the doctor or not move your feet to the doctor? It can do whatever it wants to do.

Yes, yeah. And because if a thought come to this mind, 'Go to the doctor,' and I say, 'No, I'm not going to the doctor,' even the thought then 'I'm not going to doctor' is from the same God.

Exactly. Whatever the decision is, is not my decision. This is God's decision. And like this is not my responsibility. Yes, but who are you now? Yeah, I see. Yeah, yeah. So because somewhere we can get into this form of Advaita also which has become very popular in the last ten years, where it can feel like 'I am not the doer,' you see. But 'I am not the doer, everything is for God to do,' but I did not say that. I actually said that there is only God. And if there is doing or will, then it must belong to that one which is, you see. So all is the will of consciousness, but you are consciousness.

Yeah, yeah. But otherwise, what may happen sometimes is that we can get into very strongly into this sort of mental paradigm that 'I am not the doer,' you see. But who is the you that is not the doer? Yeah, who is the you that is not the doer? Are you still referring to yourself as a non-existent one?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, but then still the question is: why God won't suffer for itself? With what can you understand the reason that God has? I can't, but maybe you can.

I can, but not with this, you see. Not with the head. And yeah, so that's why often I say that this idea of cause and effect and reasoning and 'why' is the human mind's attempt to grasp the mind of God, which it cannot do. It is like a bucket saying, 'Can the ocean come inside me because I have to usually have that experience of the ocean?' It cannot because it's only a bucket. In the same way, the mind is only a bucket. Your heart, which is your intuitive presence, is the true master, is the true Satguru presence, you see. So when you say 'you can,' you're referring to this presence, the presence of the master within your very heart. And what you need to do to access that is to just let go of the false, let go of any dependence on the false, and then the true is always available to you. But not in a way that you can squeeze it into your head. It's never available like that. Even the words of satsang don't really match the insight that is available in the heart, but they are mere pointers and ultimately rubbish, you see. But they're just meant to point you provisionally, you see, away from what you may think about yourself or the world or the truth or God, any of that. Just point you away from the false. That is the only purpose.

Yeah, because now it's come like if I would working all the time hand by hand with you or with Guruji, maybe I could be without any identification. I mean, I could be like there wouldn't be identification at all. But by myself it's just always coming back. Even if I had million of satsang and I always every time every day a lot of times listening nothing else but satsangs and doing everything for it, but it's always coming back really strongly, this identification. And yes, and yeah, this is good beer then.

And you can effortlessly drop the idea of time. The one that does not do is always in front of satsang, you see. Want some future to be like that? Leave it. I can leave it now, right now. You leave time now, but in the future time will come back? Yes. What does future... if you left time? Don't know. I sorry. Okay, I just don't really know now.

That's true. So about the decision: the one that is present, the one that is here, has no problem with decision making. Everything is an aspect of itself, is a child of itself, you see. It's just an appearance within itself. The one who doesn't exist is very concerned about what decision... it's just somebody said inside waiting for you to tell me what to do. Thank you very much. Very good, very good. Okay, next I see Paula.

Hello. Oh, I have no questions. Just wanted to express all the love and gratitude that I'm experiencing. Very good, very good with you. And there's like this yearning to just surrender, surrender and just all yours, my whole existence, myself. It's yeah... and you said something beautiful that this...

It doesn't exist, but it is very concerned about what decision it's making. It's just somebody inside waiting for you to tell me what to do. Thank you very much. Very good, very good. Okay, next I see Paula. Hello.

Oh, I have no questions. I just wanted to express all the love and gratitude that I'm experiencing with you. There's like this yearning to just surrender, surrender, and just be all yours—my whole existence, myself. And you said something beautiful: that this waking state is free. So to be free is to give freedom to this waking state to do whatever. It's not in our hands. It is not for us to get freedom, no; it is for us to give freedom to it, exactly. And that did something inside. I don't know, just to say: it's all yours.

Very good, very good, very good. Thank you. You're very welcome. Otherwise, in this constant spiritual seeking, you see, we become so much into grasping and getting—understanding, knowing conceptually—that the true knowledge in our heart is just obscured. It seems to get lost in the background, you see, which is counterproductive to what we started this whole thing for. We become more and more set in our ideas of what is right and what is spiritual, and how I must be, and how spacious I need to be, and that anger cannot come, and lust cannot come, and pain cannot come. You see, my car cannot break down. We have so many ideas. But if you really look at it, that does not sound free at all. That doesn't mean that these things must come as a new freedom, like now they must come. These are the opposites in the intellect, you see. So it can or it cannot; it's fine.

And then that question came from this—I'm going to say it anyway—but if everything is just like it is and it's perfect like this, so prayer seems like... there's like a yearning for changing something. You pray so things change, maybe? I don't know.

So like that, where we have an idea of what we want and we feel like if we do this particular action enough, or deeply enough, or sincerely enough, then we will get the outcome that we want. It may start like that: 'Please God, give me this,' whatever—freedom or money or body health, whatever it may be. So at least one good thing about that is that the central focus or the idea of power has moved away from the non-existent ego into a locus which is seemingly broader, vaster. So it's okay, it can start like this.

Then as prayer develops, you will find that, 'I don't really know what to ask for. Why? Who am I to tell you what to give me? You know better anyway. Am I the greater intelligence or are you the greater intelligence?' So who am I to be able to say that if I had this much money or better health, my life may not become worse? I don't know any of those things. So it's all up to you. Then we let go of that aspect of our intellect which thinks it knows something about what it wants in life. That is let go of as well.

Then for some, as prayer deepens, you find that as I am here now, I find no 'me' and no 'you'; I just find the one divinity. So what is there to ask and what is there to resist? All is in your light. So it becomes so natural that this provisional game of asking and receiving is also let go of in the pure trust and pure love of whatever is playing out. But if the prayer is not for myself but for others, that I truly want the well-being of everyone, it's fine. It's completely fine. Everything that you do without grasping or wanting something for this limited entity that you take yourself to be is fine.

Okay. So I pray that I get to truly, truly meet you, because that's what I really want in my heart, and that no concept stands between us. You said last time we spoke that my intellect will not survive, and I trust that. I trust you so much.

Very good, very good. Thank you, thank you. Okay, next I see Arvind.

Arvind here. You know, over the last few weeks it's been a real joy and I've felt a lot of lightness through the journey of the satsangs, so I'm really grateful. I just wanted to request for some tips and guidance on how to let go completely and how to surrender, so that one doesn't vacillate between identity and spaciousness. As you said, when the Self comes to a realization, then it should stay in that natural orbit. Why keep regressing? How does one get to a point of the Self staying in the natural orbit of itself? How does one get to a state of complete surrender? If you can just, maybe from your own experience, take us through some journey or some tips. Thank you.

So, Bhagavan Sri Ramana used the term 'mano nasha'—the dissolution of the mind. But to use a term is a double-edged sword; it's both productive and the reverse. Because what happens is that many times, because we think that there is something called mano nasha, we start thinking about mano nasha. Now, I may not be able to tell you how to get to mano nasha, but I can definitely tell you that thinking about mano nasha is the reverse of how to get to it.

The benchmarks, the checking, and the conclusions—like our own mental report cards about our state and whether we are oscillating or not oscillating, whether there is this duality between identity and space—all of this is still in the intellect. In your reality, there is no such duality. Admittedly, one end of that duality has been proposed in satsang itself, but that is proposed provisionally, not so that it can become something that you can use to beat yourself up with, saying, 'I should always be like this.' That was so beautiful, you see.

Because there comes a point in the life of most spiritual seekers where all they end up suffering from is just spirituality itself. It can be ideas like, 'I should always be like this, I should always be spacious, I should always be happy. I need to get to a particular state and then I need to guard that state.' We spoke the other day about guarding states and how that can be a very oppressive way to live. In the mind of the spiritual seeker, it can create a spiritual identity around that, and that becomes a spiritual ego. It becomes very difficult to shake.

That's why preemptively I want to make this strike before it can develop. Because the more you start thinking that you know spiritually, the more you'll get unshakable from those ideas, and the words of satsang will be used to reinforce those ideas to yourself. So if you heard somewhere that there are two states and by coming to spirituality you will come to one state more and the other state less, just forget about that. If you feel like your mind tells you, 'But when I'm in satsang I feel very open, but when I'm at work I feel very closed,' don't rely on these judgments from the mind. It's an attempt to create duality where actually none exists.

The spaciousness of the being can never be constricted. So don't ever feel that some appearance of some energetic movement can constrict you in reality. You are not some mere object which is oscillating or vacillating between this state and that state. What would you have to be to oscillate? You would still have to have a shape, isn't it? Only something with shape can oscillate. But you are not something with shape. You are that in which all shapes appear and disappear. Now, if you try to squeeze it into 'Arvind'—if you try to squeeze it into the mind of Arvind—then that is going to struggle. That is why coming to satsang is a great deconstruction of everything, all the frameworks that you could have. That's what most of our conversations have been about, actually. It's not been so much about constructing new paradigms; it's about deconstructing the knowledge which we think we have. Just a moment, I'll mute everyone again.

So, just like this: the report card on the basis of which you can judge your condition, you have to leave that. It can feel a bit wobbly, like, 'I got so used to checking on my condition and whether I'm doing well spiritually or not, whether I have more peace or less peace, whether there is more joy or less joy.' But this, which seems like helpful initially, can become a very, very strong oppressor which will just try to constrict life into a very small set of ideas about how life should be and the rest cannot come.

This is where trust and love come in. Because if you have trust, you will let go without another branch. All our life we've gone from branch to another branch—one spiritual path to another spiritual path, one class to another class, from school to college, from girlfriend to wife. We move from branch to branch. But if somebody says, 'Okay, give me that branch, but I don't give you another branch to hold,' usually the reaction is not so great. You feel like, 'Okay, I give it to you, but what will I get in return?' You could say to Ananta, 'Yes, yes, I'll give you all my concepts and all my conceptual knowledge, but can you promise me in return everlasting peace and joy?' That seems like a worthwhile bargain; who would not make that? But I'm not offering you anything in return. That can be a bit strong to digest sometimes because you feel like he's saying that so I can get that. Actually, no. I'm saying just leave it all and leave any idea of what you should get or the state that you should be in. That's actually the simplest. What I'm telling you may seem like the most difficult, but actually it is the simplest.

Thank you. You know, we've all been strivers from one step to the other. Exactly. And yeah, I guess finally you just have to forget about the staircase.

Yes, yes. Sometimes in our conceptual mind we do not recognize the direction of the staircase. It doesn't have the ability to recognize spiritual maturity or spiritual progress. All the things that we go to as spiritual seekers to the mind to give us a report on, it doesn't recognize. It doesn't have the ability to recognize.

Thank you. I guess I have little to say except that it's been a joy and I'm just grateful for the exchanges, for the opportunities, and for the experience. I have nothing to say from the mind because, as you said, you can't react to any of this through a logical response or a logical digestion. It's just, you know, just delighted to go with the flow. Thank you.

Very good, very good. Thank you, thank you. It's been a joy. It has been a joy. Somehow it sounded like goodbye or something, but it's not, of course. I'm sure we'll continue to meet, and I'm aware that you stay in Bangalore, so we're waiting for this situation to ease up a bit. Good, good, good. Yeah, so let's go to Aparna. Hello, my dear. Are you sitting in your corporate chair?

Oh no, I'm just in the office. I'm doing the same thing.

So you're sitting in my office with my night clothes on, huh? It's nice, it's sweet. How are you, my dear? I want to say before you start also that I've had the pleasure of meeting most of your family. I met your father and brother, but somehow Mom never came in this physical way to satsang or to meet, but I feel like she's here.

The situation will ease up a bit. So good, good, good. Yeah, so let's go to Aparna. Hello, my dear. Are you sitting in your corporate chair?

Oh no, I'm just in the office. I'm doing the same thing. So you're sitting in my office with my night clothes on, huh? It's nice, it's sweet. How are you, Father? I want to say before you start also that I've had the pleasure of meeting most of your family. I met your father and brother, but somehow Mom never came in this physical way to satsang or to meet. But I feel like she's here. She's here with me. And her presence is even more palpable as you come up to speak now. So I just want to tell you first that you don't have to be concerned at all about her, you know, and all that she would want, as any parent, is for you to be happy and for you to be at peace.

So, yes, there's so many things going on actually, so many things. But even about her death, to accept, and you know, always for me that has been a very strong satsang. Even when Amayaji also passed away, I had a very strong thing. And the other thing what I always felt is like last year, one of my colleagues also passed away just like that. And I could feel those people who pass away, you know, as if they want to tell me something or something like that. But when it came to my mother, I couldn't. There is some kind of urge that I want to connect with her because I still don't feel that she's gone, you know? I still feel she's there at home. And now life has become even more busier for me than what it was before. I had only my work and my daughter, but now I have to take care of my dad, brother, that home, this home, everything. You know, I take care of myself too now to take care of them. I know there's so much. I don't feel that I have time also, quite occupied for the entire day. And all these days, I don't know what I'm talking, but I'm just trying to pour out. I also felt I should call you and talk, but then somehow there was some resistance for me.

So even today also, what I experienced was that as you were speaking, Dhanika is playing hide and seek with me also at the same time. Yeah, she's here. She was the same since Australia; it was the same scenario. So yeah, that is... yeah. So today I've been... because there's so much contemplation also going on about death and you know, I felt more curious to find out what is really death, you know? So I also got one book called 'Death' by Sadhguru. So I wanted to read what happens, why it happens, and what is the next process. I have seen, I mean, in my family members I've seen a lot of death and all, but nobody so close to me, right? And this is something like it just happened. And my dad was also tested positive; he came back in five days. So it was not... even though that stress was there, but we knew something. But this one was like she just went and she never returned, you know? And she didn't even speak to us, none of us. She never spoke for none of us. At least my dad and brother had seen her, but I had not seen her. Ten days ago I had seen her. And so all those things were like... that is where I'm not able to accept the fact that she's not there, first thing.

Second thing, as I'm getting more about all this thing and I'm also reading here and there, some kind of signs come in saying that I have to change like this, you know? I can't take serious about everything. Life is very unpredictable. Yesterday also, one of my dad's very close friend's son committed suicide on Monday and we got the news yesterday. He's just my age, and just like that he's gone. So that was another kind of shock for us, you know, to take it because it's so unpredictable. Life is not something which we plan, you know? It's so uncertain. We don't know what is happening next moment, you know? Anything can happen. I could stop breathing next moment, I could stop living. Everything can, anything can happen. So it has taken me one level deeper, I think, to understand. But then what I feel, the thing is the mind is not accepting that fact or something like that, you know, to say that yes, because it is my experience. It is my experience that somebody just could go like that and it could happen to anyone, but then it is not becoming that deeper experience, if you can understand what I'm trying to convey, because I'm not able to express in words what I mean, what I'm trying to be, you know.

And it's fine, that's fine.

And yeah, so I'm able to see that. I've read some post about Robert Adams that you should not react to whatever happens and you know, Siddharameshwar Maharaj also told that everything is, you know, uncertain. All this anxiety comes because you're taking your life very seriously. Something like this, all these kind of things were coming and I was implementing that, not taking seriously. And today also, I had a conversation a little bit with my father, servant, and daughter, and suddenly I was just closing my eyes and just sitting there and there was a voice from within coming and saying, 'Do not react, do not react.' I was like, wow, what kind of voice is that? And it's just like, you know, I felt like somebody is really there or something like that. And then I don't know, I started crying actually the moment that I could hear that. So maybe it was you, I don't know, or something, something else. I don't know, Father, whether it's... I don't know. But there is something here that I felt all these days. It was a conceptual one, that there is something here. Yeah, but today, you know, I couldn't differentiate, but I could feel that it was something true, genuine, you know, and helping me to say, 'Don't go that side, don't fall into that trap, but be here and no, don't react.' And within few seconds or minutes I was like okay, calm, and you know, it was so peaceful. And I just felt to say thank you for that, you know, for whatever that thing came up, you know, for not leaving me all this while, you know, even though I have got distracted, went away, you know, when all these things going on.

I still felt okay, maybe I have to start from the beginning because I had almost, so to say, almost reached that stage and now back to normal being, so mind and being so, you know, person so to say, and attachments and everything. So that's why every time I wanted to come and see, from past three, four weeks I'm coming to the satsang now. Maybe I had to experience this to come back to satsang because I was trying so hard to be in satsang but I couldn't come somehow. This incident has got me back again with that kind of... the reason why I'm attending satsang is because I want to... I don't want to, what to say, I want to get out of myself, meaning I don't want to be this person. I don't want to, you know, feel like others or I don't want to go through that pain of, you know, being this person. Because if I die, I should die without any regrets, without any... I know, whatever it is, you know, to understand who I am truly. So that that will be the best, you know, the thing I can do for myself is something I feel like that. That is why even though the mind is not letting me to go deeper or I don't know how it is, but yeah, I feel that. I don't know how much again the situations will come to take me to that stage or again it will distract me and take me back to world because I cannot, I cannot say that I am doing this. But then definitely there is something which is playing out very sincerely, honestly, and you know, as a very... you know, like taking the place of a mother now to take care of and you know, carry out all the duties and everything. So I have no idea whether I'll be this way or that.

Very good report. It's a very good report because, and in such a short time, you are already accepting the gift that even in the worst situations in life, actually there's a gift hidden for us, you see? And you're discovering that gift in this way and learning how to follow your heart, to follow your intuition, you see? You're experiencing your divinity, your divine presence in the heart palpably, which itself is the greatest gift that we can get in humanity. So it is very good. And my only tip for you is that don't try to like understand everything now. You know, you feel like, 'I have to understand this also, that also, I'll read this, this.' Just find one or two things, just go easy on yourself a little bit so that you can also assimilate. Like Guruji says, you're eating, eating, but you also have to digest, which is happening so beautifully for you. So don't try to like stuff your mind too much with too much conceptual knowledge now. Like few things you're reading is nice, one or two is fine. Don't, don't get into, 'Now I have to solve this whole mystery of death.' It is not solvable in the intellect, that much I can tell you, you see? All the things which are truly valuable, they are such a deep mystery that the mind cannot grasp them. But in your intuition, which is introducing itself to you and you're being introduced to it so beautifully, there there is no confusion, there is no problem. Everything that is needed is there. But if you go to it with a plan and say, 'Okay, tell me my next 10 days or 10 year program,' it doesn't work like that. It only works moment to moment. Just like a river: you cannot step into the river that is gone past and you cannot step into the river that is going to come. You can only step into the river which is in front of you, you see? In the same way, your intuitive presence is like that. You can only dive into it in that very moment as you are completely empty of any ideas of wanting something or grasping something or something to do with time, you see, or something to do with some desire. And you're doing very beautifully, very beautifully.

There is no desire as such, Father, at least because after this looking at the scenarios what is happening. In one month we have lost four of them in our family actually, including my mother, and this was yesterday was another one, so five of them, very close ones we've lost. See, all the other ones we didn't feel so well, but I also wanted to tell you a few things about my mother actually. You are, you know, the relationship what I had with my mother always was not never a great thing, even though her intentions were right, but then it was not the right way of doing things, and which I got to know a little later about what she had done. The one thing, one confusion what I had was I cried that she's not there, at the same time I am okay that she's not there. So it... I'm in a kind of a state where I'm not able to express my emotions because whenever I go to my home, she never let me go back to my home at all since I moved. She would feel that I would block her from doing all the negative things, you know? So that's why she hid so many things from me and my presence is very strong for her, so she never let me get involved in her family affairs or whatever she did, which I got to know after her death, a lot of things. But that love, affection as a mother, it was there, which I cannot deny. Yes, hundred percent. I always, every day I wake up in the morning, I step out of the house and I see around and I think, 'Ma, are you still here? Mommy?' I just asked that question just like that because I feel sometimes she might be hearing me because I told you she showed her presence the next day itself to me. And definitely all those scenarios what happened, the death day, everything keeps coming every day to me. And so I have sadness here that she's gone, but the things what she did were not right. She was trying to... she was going against the nature, so that is what I can put it in right way, okay? Which was for me, especially my personal life, she was trying to get involved, which I would have not bothered to listen to her. So I was very upset that she was trying to do something, yeah, because I have moved on in my life. I've come way far ahead with my daughter, I can't go back, and she was trying to go back there. And it's not possible, like how dead people cannot come back. It's the same thing that for me, I've...

She was going against the nature, so that is what I can put it in the right way. Okay, which was for me, especially my personal life, she was trying to get involved, which I would have not bothered to listen to her. So I was very upset that she was trying to do something, yeah, because I have moved on in my life. I've come way far ahead with my daughter. I can't go back, and she was trying to go back there. And it's not possible, like how dead people cannot come back. It's the same thing that for me, I've moved on, but she's not in that kind of state she could understand that. So for me, it is becoming so difficult. Sometimes I feel to cry, but I can't cry. Should I be? It's not that I can't be happy, but then in a way, it feels it's better that she's gone, and other times her presence should have been here. It's a kind of thing which is going on in my mind.

It's fine. I'm completely fine, and you don't have to come to a resolution of how should I be feeling. There will be times where you feel grief, and grief can come. There will be time where you feel relief, maybe, and relief can come. It's fine. Nobody's judging you. The mind will keep telling you to be guilty about not grieving enough, or when you're grieving to say, 'But you're supposed to be free, why are you grieving?' You see, all of these ideas will come. Don't bother with them. You see, whatever is showing up, just you be the space in which it is showing up. Like Bhagwan used to use the example: you be like the room in which all the people can come and go, all the objects can come and go, but the room doesn't bother with what is coming and going. You see? So allow the space in which everything can come. One moment grief, one moment anger, one moment resentment, other moment affection. It's fine. It's fine, you see? Because if you try to make a conclusion and say, 'I have to be like this, this is wrong, this is right,' you see, then the grievances and the resentment, all of that can fester more and more and more, you see? So just allow it to get released. You are realizing that as she has left this worldly play, you see, at least for the moment, then all of that conditioning that goes along with the worldly play has also been left, at least for the moment, you see? So allow yourself to also be conditionless by allowing everything to come and go, not by trying to repress it or push it down.

To be honest, I'm trying to be as open as possible, Father, because even the situation outside, so to say, in my family, it's very demanding for me. Because the way my mom has taken care of my dad and brother is totally different than me. I'm always being open. I don't have any restrictions about anything in life. No, anything comes, I'm okay. But those people are very different. So me taking her position and dealing with them also is a challenge for me, actually.

In the sense that it can be a great pressure to try and now juggle two lives or take two positions. One is of your life, your daughter, then you have to, you know, if you put yourself in that sort of mental position that you have to then run two households, all of that. So this is where trust can come in, you see? Allow that which is breathing your breath, which is beating your heart, to also take care of these activities. And if somebody judges you good or bad, it's okay. It all goes to the Divine. It has nothing to do with any of what people think, you see? So some day full-on activity is happening, you're doing all of this, that is fine. If one day there's no energy, no activity is moving through the body, that is also fine. You don't have to live up to any standard or any benchmark of anyone, you see? Just be free from all of those constraints. You're doing very well. I'm happy. I'm happy we had this conversation.

Father, I feel so relieved that I spoke to you because it was there and I have no one to speak other than you, Father, because I know I can tell you anything what I want. And that connection is there even though I'm not at satsang, Father. You know, sometimes I might be angry because, you know, it is mind. When the child comes and parent doesn't respond, the child is like, 'Why?' So that can also... I've had not that it does not. And again I come back because as I said, I don't know, knowingly or unknowingly, I've come already to you and I've surrendered myself to you. I don't know if it is hundred percent or not, that I'm not sure, you know that. But anything happens, I always think of this always. So I know that you are with me all the time, Father. Thank you so much.

Don't worry. It's okay. For you, it's okay.

Thank you. That was also coming from the moment I had to ask this question. Oh my god, long one. So you're doing enough at the moment.

Can you hear me?

Yes, my dear. Yes.

Long time, Father. So long, so long. How are you doing?

All good. I'm good, I'm good, my dear.

Okay. I just recently landed a job and it's something to do with philosophy. And it's... there's this thing called Barefoot Philosophers. It's run by this philosopher called Guy, and they organize these workshops for children related to philosophizing and all that critical thinking. That apart, also some articles and all that. So I'm not sure yet, I'm yet to learn, but it's been like, wow, amazing. And one concern was coming up...

Well, with your heart?

Yeah, yeah, it does, it does. But one thing that's been coming up often is that, you know, what if... because it will involve a lot of reading and all that. So I've been like wondering whether it will take me away from satsang in terms of time and also in terms of me...

I can tell you a quick story before you get to the question. So what happened at one time—I don't know how it is now—but at one point there were many, not philosophers, but psychotherapists and psychiatrists who were coming to satsang, no? So then what happened is one of them, she got very active in doing psychotherapy and helping people in this way. But what happens is as a psychotherapist, you have a certain template that you have to follow, you know? So you cannot go beyond those guidelines too far. You have some flexibility, but you can't go too much beyond them, otherwise you can be reported or something, especially in America because they're very strong about these things. So she came and complained to me one day that, you know, she's so tired of listening to people and she just wishes she could shake them up and say, 'But who are you? But who are you?'

Yeah, and you're just of course venting, and it's important. I was there when this happened. This was Bhakti, I think, no?

Yeah, this is Bhakti, I think. No, this is actually... maybe Bhakti also said something like that, I'm sure, there. But this is much earlier. This is much before you came.

I see. Yes, yes.

So it just reminded me of some of this. So don't worry. So I told her the same thing: that trust the intuitive intelligence to provide the words in those times, and it has no trouble, you see, operating life or operating in life in whichever way. And you don't have to get into any sort of identity. You can just allow it to function in this way. And if there are some things... because if you're hearing two conceptual frameworks, you see, you're hearing the Advaita conceptual framework and you're hearing the other philosophers that you'll be working with, there's bound to be some contradiction in any conceptual framework, right? Otherwise it would be the same conceptual framework. So don't worry when these sort of mental conflicts arise and things. Don't worry. You just allow it to unfold, allow it to play out. You'll be fine. And if it gets too much, we'll see at that point what to do with this.

Yeah, yeah. So this is the question I had, Father. Last satsang you were telling someone that... so basically my question is that when I ask this question, when I tell attention to not bring back its content to me, and when I ask myself, when I give myself the instruction 'don't be,' I feel both of them go back to the same place. And I think that—and this I've confirmed with you also—you say that's the being. And that is a sensation in the chest I feel. And what is aware of that? When I ask, then this awareness thing, I have never got it, you know? This 'what is aware of that' also. So this knowing aspect of attention that brings to it that knowing and being, they both seem to be the same thing. And this awareness...

Yeah, so firstly I want to tell you that this being itself, this being itself is not like some halfway house to your final home or something. It is very beautiful in itself, and most of spirituality actually just guides to this being itself, you see? It is full in itself. There's nothing missing there, you see? So because many can beat themselves up in this thing that, 'I can come to being, but what is this awareness thing? What is aware of this?' And it can become then conceptually frustrating and things like that. So we don't need to worry so much about that. When you say that, 'I see that my being is the core of it,' I would say the core of its presence can be experienced as if it is in the heart region. But if I was to ask you: what contains that? You see? Because if you're able to locate a core, then we're also able to say that there is something besides that, you see? So what is that which contains that?

Is it separate from it? Contains... I'm not sure, but it seems limited, you know? It's like that sensation, it has its own...

That's what we're looking at. So I see, for example, that this fist is at the center of the screen, okay? So if it was only the fist that I was aware of, then I could not say that, isn't it? I have to be able to say that it is at the center of the screen because I'm aware of the perception of fist as well as screen. Yeah? If it is only fist, then I could not say it's at the center of the screen. When we say it is located in the chest region or the heart region, then we must be aware of where that is also, you see? It must have a basis. Because if that was all that you were perceiving, you could not locate it in space and say, 'But it is located only there,' you see?

Yeah, so it is what we are now. So we're saying, okay, there's a palpable sensation of my presence which is at the core of my beingness, which is felt in the heart region. But we cannot say it is the physical heart; it feels like a heart region. So now the question is: okay, that is there, but what is around it? What is it at the center of? What is that?

I could say that the body is around it, and maybe a further distance in the world around, these walls, building, trees.

Yeah, things like that. Yeah, that it's contained in that.

Yeah. So let's say that the perception of the palpable sensation of the presence is in the same place that all other perceptions are perceived. Would it be okay to say that? Because you said the same thing, like body sensations and world sensations contain that, isn't it? It's in the same space as all other perceptions.

Same space. Okay.

Let's look at... let's try an experiment. You can close your eyes for a moment. Just see if you can bring your attention to that palpable presence of being. Yeah? And then also you're hearing the sound of the bird, is it? Or you can imagine... can you imagine a tree? Yeah. Now, the imagination of the tree and the sensation of the presence, of the palpable presence that you're perceiving, is it in different spaces?

So it's like this: the attention brings back this idea, this mental perception of the tree to that place, like these wires that take it back from there.

Exactly. So attention brings that to light. But it's not like attention has to take a leap or jump out of some boundary and go to different places, isn't it?

I don't know how attention... whether it leaps or not.

Investigate that. Like, it seems like one cohesive... the words are difficult here. So let's call it the space of being in which these words may be heard, that tree maybe imagined, that presence maybe... it doesn't feel like you have to visit two different stations to find these. It does appear there's a space.

To light, but it's not like attention has to take a leap or jump out of some boundary and go to different, different places, isn't it? I don't know how attention—whether it leaps or not—but investigate that. It seems like one cohesive—the words are difficult here, so let's call it the space of being in which these words may be heard, that tree may be imagined, that presence. Maybe it doesn't feel like you have to visit two different stations to find these. It does appear there's a space between them, sort of. Correct? Everybody has to be like that. Even that space is something that attention traverses, and there's no distinct break in that space anywhere, you see, within which all of these perceptions are being perceived. So you're absolutely right. So when your attention is on your presence, then I say, 'Okay, imaginary,' then it can feel like there's a space that your attention traverses to go to that. Yeah, yeah. Say, 'Okay, now bring your attention to this voice.' It can seem like there's a space that it traverses to go to that. Now if I were to say, 'Listen to the bird,' it can seem like... so that space is not this outer perceptible space, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So what is that? So what is that? What space is that? Because it is not this space. It is not this space because in that very same space, if we have a dream, then they can create a full manifest world. Yeah, we just close our eyes and all this we can be introduced to in another imaginary realm of objects, of things, of thoughts, of emotions, you see. Yeah, where the possibility to perceive these words, where the possibility to perceive everything exists. So what is the screen on which all of these perceptions work?

Yeah, it's like that sense of being, it sort of expands a bit or it sort of like fades out and it seems to not be contained in that limited way. It seems to sort of extend further.

Yes, very beautiful. So, very good. So that is why usually I don't say bring your attention to your being, because your attention actually cannot leave your being. Like, how would you not put your... your attention actually cannot traverse anything other than your being. But when the masters have given us the advice 'bring your attention to your being,' what they are talking about is the palpable presence which seems to have its core for many in the heart region, yeah, you see? But it is not as if it is distinct from everything else, because you will find that that presence itself, although it seems so tangible here, it never really goes away, whatever other objective perception we may be having. Yeah, and that is why we can, from this sort of recognition, we can see that all happens within this one space of my being. Yeah, yeah, including a very palpable taste of the core presence of this being, what we may call the sense of being. But being is everywhere. All right, we can actually say everywhere is in being. But these are experiments and contemplations. So this awareness thing, I'll just like leave it to you as usual. Forget about it for the time being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, thank you. Okay, Jada has had her hand up for quite some time.

Hello, my love. Did you finish your previous transcript? Hmm, no, sorry. Yes, sorry about this, but I will finish it, Father. Actually, while I'm doing today, just... yeah, it touched some part and so much negativity comes up which I experienced actually the whole week. So again, when you try to do the transcript, there's some resistance. Not hard transcript, of course, but something. Yes, yeah.

So then that's good. You must do it if there's resistance. Yes, yes, I go with the resistance and I need to take rest a little bit. Yes, I'm just changing my mic, my dear, one second. Sure. All right, am I still audible?

Yes, Father.

Okay, good, good. So I just come up because the whole week I experienced so much negativity which feels untrue but which was very... are you ready? Sorry, my dear, but are you ready for this question which is my new sword now, which is: how do you know your experience?

Yeah, I don't know.

That was quick. That is very good. Because if you go from 'my whole week I've been experiencing negativity too,' but I don't really know, you see? Because if I ask you about the week, the memory may throw up a few instances from last week, you know, maybe four or five things like this. But you had thousands and thousands of moments in the last week, and I realized that the mind does not have the capacity to capture knowledge about our experience, and yet it presents to us a narrative which it wants us to believe, wants consciousness to take to be true, you see? Just like a child saying, 'Hear my story because it is true,' but it is all made up in the same way, you see? Your mind presents a narrative about our experience, but now you come to the maturity where you can see that: can I really bank on those words? Can I really rely on those words which claim to convey a story about my experience? But is it really true, you see? Because what the mind will do is constantly, especially because you are having good insights about what you are, it will present to you problems and narratives which it will say, 'First you resolve these, then we will talk about greater things,' you see? 'First fix that aspect of your life. Look, look, fix that first. Who are you to claim freedom? You haven't even sorted out this issue,' you see? So it will present these stories with the claim of knowledge where it doesn't actually have that knowledge. With me at least a little bit, no? You see, because it's very, very important. So when we are able to spot the nature of the mind, you see, and its conclusions about what it claims to be our experience as just a tiny aspect of my being, you see, then we don't fall for the tricks. So that's why these days I've started saying, 'Okay, if you can narrate your experiences of a week to me, can you tell me your experience right now? What is your experience right now?' And I promise you nobody can do it because at best you will take a fragment of it. You will take a small aspect of it: 'Oh, I am feeling some resistance' or 'I am feeling some joy.' But that's just a fragment, a tiny fragment in your infinite being, you see? So no mind can narrate the story of what is your true experience for one moment also. So it cannot do it for a week. So it can do it as conversation among friends, you see? So we may talk as friends and say, 'Ah, my last week, I can tell you I had so much work, you see, this happened to me last week,' and you can say, 'Yes, yes, my friend, this is what my week...' But if you're really saying satsang is truth, then we cannot truly say... like, I cannot tell you what my week was like because it was just too big for me to put it in words, you see? So but I'm not promoting any sort of denial that, 'Oh, I was feeling like this, I don't know about that, let's just deny that.' No, I'm saying don't meet it halfway, you see? Whatever's coming, meet it full way and you'll realize that when you meet something full way, then you don't have the capacity to interpret it or insert it in some idea about ourselves.

I feel so touched with something that you said, like meet with whatever it is. You said something like this, like no denial. When you said this, I feel so...

Yes, when I see that you accept this part... so of course, because I know the mind and the naysayers will always have this idea that, 'Oh, this is some sort of bypassing' or 'this is some sort of denial.' But I'm not saying deny at all. I'm saying accept. But why are you picking and choosing among your experiences and saying only this is relevant to me? God is painting the whole picture for you. Is it denial to say look at the whole picture and don't get lost in a tiny aspect of it because that makes you suffer? That is not denial. That is acceptance of your full reality, not your incomplete, limited idea of just being a body-mind.

Yeah, I was kind of false suffering. I also say this, you know, there's a suffering but it's false suffering because it was like, as you said now, just it was going like the habit of interpretation, but I cannot... like, it doesn't work at all. So this kind of false suffering was playing the whole week.

And I'll give you another tip which will be helpful. Suffering is only about the false, you see? There is no such thing as true suffering, because true suffering would mean that I take myself to be what I really am and that one is suffering.

I try to translate to my native language, so it's helpful to transcribe because you can hear it in your own time and just immerse yourself in the words and just see, you see what I'm saying, you see?

So I'll repeat this again and you can transcribe it only once, but we can have this idea of false suffering and true suffering. True suffering would mean that I am not taking myself to be the false, I am taking myself to be what I truly am, and yet I am suffering, you see? Now, I haven't met that because what I found myself to be, and which I'm certain that you are as well, you see, because there are no two, is this unchanging pure awareness, witnessing principle, which to which suffering is not even a concept, you see? It's not even an alien concept; it's not a concept at all. So suffering relies on false identification because in the light of truth, there is no such thing as suffering. In the light of truth, the experience or the perception of pain can be there, you see, but pain resisted with concepts is called suffering.

May you repeat, Father?

Yes, I'm saying in your spacious perception, from openness, there could be the experience of what we may call pain, but suffering means pain plus concepts, you see? Pain can appear naturally, you see, but for suffering you have to work hard. I know it sounds the opposite of what we think, but to suffer we are doing a lot of work.

Yes, it was just too obvious how false it was, but it was playing in a way.

Yes, once it seemed to be false, you see, once it seemed to be false, then it loses its ability to grab us because we only believe what we think to be true. Nobody says, 'Oh, this is so false, let me believe it.' Isn't it time to do that? You see, whatever I'm going to say now is going to be false, just believe it. You see, a man up the tree and then he fell down, you see, it's all false, believe it. It doesn't work like that.

Thank you. So welcome, so welcome. I enjoyed this interaction and yeah, thank you. I feel like it's such a gift for me that the way you speaking and I really took it and thank you for this.

Who's here? Shivani is here. Hello, stranger. Missing for a few weeks? All good? Went missing for a few weeks. I'm just trying to pin you, you know, forgotten how to do it. Yeah, it's not going up for you. Yeah, I got it, I got it. Okay, I missed what you said.

I was saying that it felt like my twin went missing for a few weeks. It's been a few months. Yeah, yeah, I'm still here, I'm still here. I just came on, I don't know why. I haven't been around for a while but showed up on my Facebook feed the other day was that graphic you made with the pen. Do you remember the graphic with the believing the thoughts or not believing them with the pen example? Yeah, and you know what it said? It said—I don't remember now whether it said seven years or eight years ago—yeah, I know, yeah, a long time ago. I can't remember what it said.

Don't pick it up. Yeah, don't pick it up. Yeah, I said don't pick it up, or if you found that you already have it in your hand, just throw it away or put it back. That's it. Yeah, and that's all I've been trying to say for so long. Yeah, in many different ways.

I just missed you, Father, and I kind of just came. Yeah, I don't know actually, I don't know why I came, but I just missed you. And then Aparna spoke and I was like, I was just really happy to see her and you know, like you said, the gifts that her mum gave her. And then seeing how many people are here now with 126 participants, I don't know what, it's a whole bunch of things. Like I just turned up and then all these things like that is, I don't know, that's just awesome. Like we used to have these what...

I missed your Father, and I kind of just came. Yeah, I don't know actually, I don't know why I came, but I just missed you. And then Aparna spoke and I was like, I was just really happy to see her and, you know, like you said, the gifts that her mum gave her. And then seeing how many people are here now with 126 participants, I don't know, it's a whole bunch of things. Like, I just turned up and then all these things. Like, that is, I don't know, that's just awesome. Like, we used to have these—what was it? What was that platform? I forget now. I just said no, before Google, we used to use this thing. And then I know you stream and I would put the announcement on Facebook or in the chat, and sometimes only one or two of them would come, you know? And I would say that okay, if one of you is here, that's more than enough. Yeah, and there was no video, it was just like a chat. Wasn't there a dude there? There was, alright, but no group, like just the chat feed.

Yeah, and Aparna mentioned Maya, and Maya was one of the ones in the faith, I remember. Yeah, you know that Lucia? There are two of them and I always get the way they pronounce it wrong, but Australian—she is the one who told Amaya about satsang. Yeah, actually Lucia was the one who told me about the chai shot, the challenge. Yeah, and then I'd also already seen one of your satsangs; I somehow stumbled across it. And then she told me there was a chat and I was like, I was actually watching that guy the other day. But yeah, I just—one of the things that came up, and that's—I you know, I don't want to come with something because I don't have anything. I just came, we had learned to say.

But when Aparna was talking about, like when she was speaking, how she said, you know, at any minute someone can just not be here anymore. It's kind of that's what brought me to satsang, like in 2012, I think now. My best friend passed away and I was just shocked because I was like 34 and I never had anyone close to me die. And it was funny because the week before, I said to her that exact thing. I said, 'If someone I know who's really close to me dies, I want to be stuffed.' And then a week later she was gone.

So that's when Aparna said that, like, yes, I remember this. I remember you telling me this. Your friend was a Deborah or something? I don't remember the name. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of a blessing, like when you really—when you're hit with that to go, 'Any second now, you know, this person could not be here.' And okay, this is the twist in it, because I still struggle with this. And I—you know how sometimes you say that a realistic view of life is meaningless or whatever? I can't remember how you say it.

Yeah, like because that kind of what happened when that happened. I was like, well then what's the point if one minute I could be looking at someone and the next minute they're gone? Yeah, because it's like all my attachments, you know, like they were so fragile. Like it just made me realize that that's just so fragile.

So were we born with the idea that life must have a point? And does it not having a point that we can comprehend, does that automatically imply that it is pointless? No, it implies all the attachments that we have are pointless. In our intellect, we can only present it this way: that either life is very meaningful, it has this point, or it presents it as, 'Oh, it's pointless or meaningless.' But does it have to be pointy or pointless? Is it not—can it not be beyond these opposites? And isn't it beyond these opposites?

Yeah, it is. I have to be honest, I struggle with this to this day.

Because that is our need to understand, no? That is our need to understand. But anything that is valuable in life, whether it is love, whether it is being, whether it is the Self, whether it is truth—anything that is valuable, have we really understood it? Can we really understand it? Because the tool to get that understanding, you see, it's like not wanting to accept that fact that—I don't know if it's attachments, but like, you know, the kids. Like if one of the kids just suddenly wasn't here, yes, yes, it's like really hard to accept.

Thank you for reminding me of that, because I wanted to tell Aparna also: you don't need to accept anything. I see that she's also trying to accept that her mother is not there, but it's not true that her mother is not there. You see, only in a particular way. But even that, we don't have to force ourselves to accept.

Well, it kind of is like you have to, because that way is change. Like, it's memory, it's not—

But if you really look at it, in the play of perception, something appears or something does not appear. In those perceptions in themselves, the perceptions are not saying, 'Oh, that one is not there now' or 'That one will never show up now.' It is only the mind presentations which have these kind of ideas, you know? Yeah, yeah. So the mind pokes us both ways. If we become too accepting of it: 'Look at you, you're so hard, you've accepted that your best friend is gone. You see how rough are you, or how tough are you?' No, no, I can't deal with this concept. I don't want it. As I see, you can't even accept. Acceptance is very important, but the acceptance that I am speaking of is not to give a conceptual assertion to an idea from the mind. It is to allow even the unacceptance conceptually of an idea to be there. 'I can't accept it.' Okay, don't accept it. It's fine. Who told you you have to accept it? I mean, I know the world tells us that. I don't ever recall saying something like that in satsang, that oh, I have to accept. Because I don't know, this could be a dream, that may have been a dream. I don't really know. So what to accept and what not to accept?

It what seems like in—I can't really say that because that's just an idea, but like—

But the best way to look: what can we really see? You see? Yeah, I like what you did because you started something and said, 'Can I really say that?' What would 'real' imply there? And what is the way I have to know, you see? And when we start looking in this way, we realize the mind has just been making a monkey out of us for this long, you know? 'I think okay, now accept this. I don't know, you can't accept that.' We're presenting these things and we put ourselves in these limited positions that something has to happen before I can be free, or something.

Yeah, because it's like my mind just says, um, I couldn't accept it, you know? And it's like, it's suffering an idea that hasn't even happened. And maybe at the time—well, it's supposed—for example, sorry, I seem to keep it because there's a lag. But suppose I didn't accept what you were saying?

No, so I'm not going to beat myself up and say, 'No, no, I should accept.' Shivan is saying, 'No, I don't accept what you're saying.' It's fine.

Well, the non-acceptance kind of brings this anger, like this pissed-offness to get into non-acceptance.

Yeah, I remain neutral, you see? Neither accepting nor, 'No, no, I reject what you're saying.' So I'm not talking about an acceptance or a rejection, you see? Because either position is full of trouble.

I'm gonna have to transcribe this one.

No, but because you see the nature of them like this: if we say, 'Okay, now don't accept,' that means that I'm now rejecting or not accepting. No, that's not what I said, because that's a new position: 'I'm not accepting.' But I'm not rejecting either. I'm just letting it be. Yeah, who said that I must take a position about something that shows up in life?

Well, emotionally you would take a position, you know?

Emotion is fine, but emotions are not a position because they come, sometimes they seem to linger, and they pass, you see? And maybe they come again, that's fine. But they are not proposing ideas; they are just experienced as perception. Yeah, so it is the idea that comes as an overlay on top of the emotion which says, 'This emotion should not come, this means you're still attached' or 'This means you need to get more detached.' All this is the narrative that the emotion doesn't carry. The emotion is a pure appearance like a cloud, you see? It is the mind interpretation: 'Oh, dark cloud means bad news, light cloud means good news.' You see, we can make these smoke signals out of anything.

Yeah, yeah, because I'm kind of suffering the idea, you know, of it.

Of course, that is exactly the pen thing we were talking about just yesterday. Yeah, it's like I'm angry all the time, pissed off—or not all the time, you know, just when I get into this play.

So good to identify that it's just with the idea. Hmm, so don't pick up the pen, or if you picked it up, then drop it.

Yeah, I'm struggling a bit faster to drop, I don't know why.

Because many times we struggle because a better pen is not being presented to us. Like, we're usually willing to drop the branch that we are holding if a better branch is offered. But because what is offered to the mind seems like nothing, then it can feel like, 'But what do I hold then? What can I truly say?' But the thing is, what we are taking to be true is not true, and we see that by now. Okay, tell me exactly, like spell it out for me, what you're struggling with.

Well, okay, when the thing that my friend died—like, it hit me like a pile of sand. So I came and wanted to speak about it. It just—it just kind of made me afraid to live in a way, because like any moment anything could happen. Any moment, it's like kind of been on edge, like every split second. It's like walking through life waiting for something to jump out and you know—

Do you know that this report is true?

Um, well okay, sometimes, not all the time. But like sometimes when I—okay, let's narrow it down because that was probably pretty broad. Occasionally, like I'll have this mindset, it'll go into, you know, and it gets really stuck in it. Like, you know, yeah, I start freaking out, I start panicking, like maybe for half a day, maybe for a day, maybe for a week. So last week I end up in hospital, Father, with panic attacks because of things like this.

It just went past. How many moments did you struggle with this? Well, it just went past. Tell me authoritatively, how many times?

Probably one.

One moment. And how many moments are there in a week? Yeah, actually trillions. I would like to have struggles like this! It's only one in a trillion. That's fewer than the masters. Yeah, that's what I'm questioning: the narrative and whether it truly depicts our life in an accurate fashion. No, it happens sometimes. It's fine to happen from time to time, because as long as it doesn't take 999,000 out of a million, it's okay.

Yeah, yeah, I just have a visit to the hospital. They know me down there. One time, okay. Well, she just said and I could so relate, I was like, 'Yeah.' And that's not really even what it came to talk about, it just popped up and I was like, you know, I feel like—I won't impose this on you because you'll beat me up, but be happy if you transcribe at least a part of what we spoke.

Yeah, I will. I forgot how to do that. How do I do that again? Everything is good. Yeah, yeah, everything's good. I've been a bit crook, got a virus. Yeah, I got a virus, but it's not COVID, sorry. But yeah, there's another term you used for that—you 'crook'? Been a bit crook? You've been a bit crook?

Yeah, crook. Yeah.

Be careful if you say that in some other countries. Yeah, no, I'm not a crook, I've been a bit crook. Take care of your body.

Yeah, yeah, I'll miss you, Father. I can't wait. I don't know, because about the Enneagram book—yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, I've been doing that a bit. It's pretty interesting because you're definitely doing that. It's basically pointing at it from another direction, like pointing out the ego so it's not invisible, you know? It's like someone's gone and done a documentary on humans. Crazy. I don't know who originally figured this out or whatever, but yeah, it's basically like the flavors of the ego and then it points it out, so then you're like, 'Okay, this is what you're not.' That's not so—yeah, that's not so good.

Sounds good. I love it. I'm still on this whole energy something, like the more things change, the more they stay the s—

From another direction, like going pointing out the ego, so it's not invisible. You know, it's like someone's gone and done a documentary on humans. Crazy. I don't know who originally figured this out or whatever, but yeah, it's basically like the flavors of the ego and then it points it out. So then you're like, okay, this is what you're not. That's not so good. Sounds good. I love it. I'm still on this whole energy, something like the more things change, the more they stay the same, or something like that. Who says this? Somebody? I don't know. It may be from the universe where I am from. I'm not sure which one this is. Maybe it's from the farm guy universe. Some guy—is there a farm guy that you have as well or something? Owns a farm or property or something?

Oh yeah, in the ultimate universe. Okay, let's go to Sylvia. Hello, hello, my dear.

Um, I don't know what to say to you, but I felt to show up. Maybe something will come. I have a sensation, like a feeling like it's enough like this, because I'm always about me, me, me, me, even in satsang with you. And I just want to expose this and yeah.

Yeah, so you are experiencing a sensation or just an idea? What is happening? Can you zero in on it a bit more?

It's like in the body, in the physical body, it's like emotion and like a feeling of dying inside or burning or something like this on a mental way.

It's like, okay, let's look down even more, yeah, if you indulge me in that. So don't interpret it in any way. Tell me as raw as possible. Like, don't tell me what you think it means, like a feeling of dying or any of that. Just what is the experience in as simple a way as possible?

In a deeper way, I see I can't see nothing. I can't say something. It's not affecting, yes.

But we don't even have to say that. Just stay with it. Whatever you're perceiving, just stay with it in this pure perception without the need to conclude something out of it, because our conclusion can be very far from what it is. And one trika in life is there is nothing as healing as a pure perception. The minute we bring in the idea of being able to know it, you see, conceptually, that's where it seems to become stuck. Can you truly tell me what it means, whatever the sensation may be? Can you truly tell me? No, it's just... does it feel better? This is maybe the most important question today, you know, for everyone. Is it better to have a false idea of something because it reassures us that at least I have an idea about what it is, or to allow ourselves to be in the mystery? Oh, I said it too poetically now; the answer seems obvious. But the invitation from the mind is always like this. It presents a proposal to us and somewhere we have got used to taking it to be true because the alternate seems too open, it seems too broad, and it seems too fearful to not know, you see. But I am inviting you into that mystery. I'm inviting you into that mystery because you'll find that all that we thought we knew was not even the surface of what is true, not even the surface-level mask of what is true. Yes.

That's why the theme of satsang today and the previous few times has been: how can you know your experience? What is the way in which you can know your experience? I realize that for many of you this can seem like a completely absurd sort of question, and you allow it to be absurd. It's okay, don't bother with it. But for some of you, it'll mean and you'll be open to contemplating something like this. Like, I have a narrative about what my life is like, or what my day is like, or what my last one hour is like, you see. I can never have a narrative about right now anyway. But on what basis can I conclude that that narrative is accurate or true? It can be just an idea that I know that it's true. It's just to show me that which is just like saying, like children say, 'It is true because I say so.' You see, that is not a standard of truth; it is just an insistence of truth. So the mind behaves just like that. How do I really know this is true? Because I said so. And that only brings conflict and suffering, you see, because one time it says like this, another time it says something else. And this apparent play of all these so-called minds, which is actually one mind, you see, it seems to present different versions, you see. And that is why there's so much conflict and struggle and strife in this world, you see.

So the way to knock off all the narratives is to really zero in on this a bit and say: the mind comes with a proposal for a story of my life; can I really conclude this to have some truth? In what way can I say it is true? And if you explore, you will find I can't really say, you see. So to take that which we cannot really conclude to be true as the truth is the ignorance that the masters are telling us about and that we have to let go. Even 'I am the body' or 'this person' is ignorance; it's arrogance. But you cannot solve it. Do not solve it. There where you are trying to solve it is no resolution there, you see, because we keep hoping that I'll be able to conclude something about what is with some finality, but it just doesn't happen because the instrument is too small, as I've been saying. So in satsang, we can negate or deconstruct all these conclusions that we can come to, but we cannot constructively give you the truth mentally. Without the attempt to resolve it conceptually, show me how you're struggling. Is it just on that all this struggling called emotion? Do you really know that? No, not even that, isn't it? Although it is the words of satsang waiting to experience that, I really know that. Do you really know that? Do you really know even that? Get used to the wobbliness of inconclusiveness. It can feel a bit wobbly because like, oh, now this is happening, something is waiting for—no, it's not. Do we really know that? Thank you. But then what? But then what? See what's happening is I'm dealing with the wobbliness of not knowing, you see. But do we really know that? Even that? Yeah, that's where we have some fun. Don't be scared. Okay, I won't say 'do you really know that?' See, you can—it's a good exercise, but not too oppressive. Yes, it's good because ego is very constructing itself and I... okay, I lied. Do you really know that?

Sorry. Why believe when we don't really know? Let me ask a 'why' question, okay? Why believe when we don't really know? Yes, you can see like the alternative, because the alternative is nothingness, is emptiness, you see. And that emptiness is scary to the mind. But even this is nonsense because I can't really say that. But provisionally it's okay. I'm inviting you and all of you into this emptiness, in this openness. Our life is immense. It's more than a 4D movie. There's so much beyond what our limited memory can fathom, you see. But the mind's version of our life is so meager, it's so tiny compared to the magnificence of your life, you see. And there's no valid reason, except to be able to suffer, you see, to accept the story of the mind. What else will you lose, you see? What else will you lose if you lose all interpretations about what is, except the ability to storify and to suffer because of our story? What else do we lose? Control? Where's the control? Where's the control that we can lose? You're right, you're right. The fear is about losing control, about losing control over this life. Like Guruji says, he had a fear that he'll become a hunchback beggar on the streets of Brixton like Quasimodo, you see. That is this—this is the fear that what will happen to me, what will happen to my life. But if you really look, what are we controlling right now? In what way are we controlling it? Does that one even exist, the one who has some apparent control?

Very good. Okay, we can go to Amol and Madalina and Edgard. So let's go to Amol first. Good to see you here. Are you back with face-to-face there or it's still restricted?

Yeah, it's restricted till the numbers get a bit better. Now only some, those who have taken and who are living in this building and they're not venturing outside, they can come. But hopefully we'll ease up soon. Thank you, Ananta. You have in your instance or moment from satsang keeps on repeating and if I would like to my current state or going like any times you said, it's like this, right? As simple as it or easier. And then when I try to stay awake again in my words or aware, wherever there are even a slightest of efforts, I'm trying to drop it and suddenly it feels like there is nothing to hold to, right? But I know it's all I have to continue with that as long as I can or as much as I can throughout the day. So sometimes I feel about, you know, there's once a statement Modi made for one, that he has an art of taking bath in the shower wearing a raincoat. So that's what I felt like. Even when you were talking for years or months or hours, there are only few drops falling on me. Am I wearing that raincoat?

I like that metaphor. I like the metaphor. So is it an intellectual level that is in between, or what is stopping? What are the identity presence? What are the—it is the need or the habit that we have cultivated to try and intellectually fathom the unfathomable. You've identified it well. It's fine. Once you see that, then it's good because you've identified the root of the ignorance.

Yeah, sometimes the feeling comes as if time is running out, right? From what I don't know, but still it's like fear that—that is a fear like nothing happening or what next or what something. But I know you will come up with this answer and that's the basic one, but I will just say thank you.

Thank you. Okay, let me give you a more reassuring answer. One metaphor at one time he said: when you get on the train, you see, you don't go every minute to the train engine driver and say, 'Are we there yet? Where are we? Getting there? Are we going in the right direction? Are we gonna get there?' You see? So if you boarded the guru train, then he will take care of you. Don't worry. He will not run out of time.

That is awesome. Yeah, thank you. I'll keep that with me till next time.

Oh yes, you can keep it longer. Yeah, as you said last time, after a couple of hours of your satsang you come out and okay, so what he said? Like, so what can I take away? Nothing. It's like you're clean. It's in here. I hear these words as they come out of this mouth, but it's just like hearing somebody else. After ten minutes, I have no idea, you know. And somebody says, 'You said this,' and I'm like, 'Okay, is it?' But few things, of course, I'll remember. Yeah, I remember mostly it's all forgotten. Like I read a transcript and many times I'll just look at it and say, 'This is pretty good stuff,' you know, and then I read the name at the bottom like, 'What? I don't remember.' Yeah.

So, Ananta, also one experience in daytimes at least, you know, I know what's going on. I can watch, I can slow down, I can give up, let go. But it just takes revenge in my dreams. It's like coming back with full force.

Yes, it happens. It happened like that for a bit. It's okay. And dream Ananta will also come. Whichever state is the experience of an individualization of consciousness is experienced in that state, then the alarm clock of the master or the divine presence in one way or the other will also show up.

Yeah, thank you, Master.

So welcome. Okay, let's go to Madalina. Namaste.

Namaste. I like transcribing. I think that's good, or at least it worked. The risk of coming up—what came up inside my heart, I think when Sylvia was talking, and I think it's connected to probably the whole satsang with Shivani talking as well and yeah, some other brothers and sisters. Ah, it's connected with my motherhood identity and my need to control Ana's happiness.

Happening to you? I get this strong—my mind attacks. And this need to control—the mind tells you that is this the mind attack where it tells you you have a—

What came up inside my heart, I think when Sylvia was talking, and I think it's connected to probably the whole satsang with Shivani talking as well and some other brothers and sisters—it's connected with my motherhood identity and my need to control Ana's happiness. And happening to you, I get this strong mind attack. This need to control—the mind tells you that. Is this the mind attack where it tells you you have a need to control?

It is the mind that... oh, that is the mind attack. But this is not where you are. The conclusion is mind.

Then the mind attack is that I jump into controlling things. Look, I started... okay, maybe I'll describe step by step in simple words. Don't ask me tricky questions which I don't know how to answer, then my main tool is taken away from me.

I left you with no sword for my ego. No sword left. Okay, we'll find one anyways.

When Ana is crying, I have a story in my head and the belief that she's suffering and I have to rescue her. And then I start building a whole story around that. I do realize that I cling on my thoughts. So sometimes I'm able to get out of there. Self-inquiry doesn't get me too far. And when she cries, I can't stay still. My body goes to rescue her.

Okay, well I just have one simple question about this, which is that with what tool can we confirm that this is really true? And I don't use the words 'really true' trivially. I think the primary question is, how can we confirm that? Is Ana really suffering?

No, no, that's okay. We'll get to that in a moment. But what I'm asking is, you say that this is what happens, you see? With what tool can you conclude that this is what really happens?

This is the conclusion of my mind.

Okay, and what have we learned about the mind so far?

That it is not true.

Okay, then now what we gonna do about it? Still good night?

Okay, can I quote Shivani and say that I can't accept that someone I love and is also in my perception vulnerable?

Yeah, do you know that Shivani is tougher than me? I didn't know that. No, she was sleeping but I did messing with her. Sorry, can you repeat that? Sheep at heart has gentleness. But you're looking for some Sangha support. I unmuted her. What do you need to share? Say again.

I can't accept that someone who's so close to my heart, like my children...

Yeah, but where is this acceptance police? They're saying you have to accept this and you have to accept that. Can't accept? You don't accept. I suffer. What do you enjoy more? Non-acceptance or the suffering? None? Then let go of both. If you enjoy both, keep both. If you enjoy one of them, keep that. Whatever it is, fine. This is going to be a fun transcript for you to do. One thing I want to tell everyone is that to be in satsang means we are not going to be so linear about things, you see? Because the mind is very linear, logical, straight. We're going to be all circular about everything, you see? And it'll irritate the mind, it'll frustrate the mind, it'll make you angry, it'll do all of those things. But it's very important to snap back from this linearity, you see? Because if you are tied to this linearity of very limited sort of thinking, then the truth is far, far, far out from that stuff that hurts more than this previous suffering.

So okay, who said I can't give you a new branch to hold on?

Okay, don't give me some linear logic. It's been a long day. I don't want any linear logic. Tell me something which is all round-round and makes no sense to the mind. Bring back this word. I'm ready for it. Tell me something which is all round-round and makes no sense.

I'm a monkey with no mind.

Yes, maybe. Okay, thank you. Thank you, my dear. At your feet, ending your love is beautiful. Thank you. Okay, we have Devika. Hello, my dear. Good to see you.

Namaste, Father. How are you doing? We haven't met like this. No, we only met in the park in Indiana.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, this time is great for... it works perfectly for Chicago time. So thank you so much for taking my calls at this time. 6:30 in the morning. He's too young. Did he do well last year with the COVID and everything?

He was fine. He spent most of last year here in India anyway, so obviously online. He went for the last semester, he spent there and came back. He's been good. Great, wonderful, Father. I was reading some knowledge and I came across the statement from Ramana Maharshi that body itself is a thought. And you know, by your grace, by Mooji Baba's grace, I see that the ego, the small 'I', is like a vestige organ. But I can't get... I cannot and I don't understand how body is a thought, because I really feel it. And I feel it, and it has always troubled me with one thing or the other. So some problem or the other keeps on coming and it seems so real, especially when there is discomfort or pain. So am I thinking this into reality? And also you asked, I just heard you ask, 'How do you know your experience?' So how do we reconcile body as the experience?

It's very hard to reconcile the body aspect. Yes, very good, very good, very good. So I'll give you a simpler answer first for the terminology aspect of it. So in India especially, you would have noticed, especially in Vedanta and things like that, that they sometimes make a differentiation between big mind and small mind, you see? And so the small mind is what we usually refer to as the mind, what we call the mind. This is the small mind. Now what is the big mind? Sometimes in some ways of speaking, the big mind is the consciousness itself. And therefore, and ultimately even that is a coming and going, you see? Ultimately even our sense of being comes and goes for that reality which we are. So sometimes sages used to use the term big mind. If you take consciousness in that representation as a big mind, then everything that appears within consciousness on the screen of consciousness could also be called a thought. So then that way you could say it's a thought. The definition of how they are using 'thought' is different in that representation, whereas we use 'thought' mostly in satsang to represent the message which comes in language which has a proposal about what is, you see? We call that a thought. But some have said that everything is just a thought, and therefore amplifying its nature of unreality because it also comes and goes, you see? So in that way it's just a thought. So I would not worry so much about that; it's a different way of speaking.

But I want to give you a deeper answer and we can meet on that, you see? How do I see that the body is just a thought? Because I experience the sensations and I see that there is a body, you see? But the sensation is not body. The body is a thought that we are applying on top of the sensation. If you can stay with me in this one: there's a sensation. Now this sensation is just perceived. It does not carry any idea that it is a body, you see, or it is not a body. It's not working at that conceptual level anyway, you see? Now stay with all of your perceptions and allow them to be open and empty and tell me what anything is. Is there a world?

Is there a world? Is there a body? No, there's no boundaries. There's no notion of boundary or boundarylessness, isn't it?

I'm viewing body as with the boundary, you know, defined by the skeletal system and the skin. Skin is the final boundary. This is a simple one we can look at together. All it needs is a little innocence to look along with me. So we are just checking for a moment on who is bound by this body, you see? And when we check, you will see there may even be the notion that 'I am bound within this body.' But then go to the sensation of the body and see if that conclusion has the presence of this 'I am' only on one side of it, and therefore it would be bound as a container just like the water would be bound by the container which is the glass, you see? So then water can only be on one side of the glass; it cannot be on both sides. Check on your own body sensations that you perceive and see whether you are more on one side and not there on the other. See if it really contains you, any boundary sensation of the body.

No, it doesn't contain. There's no boundary.

There's no boundary. It's just an idea. So in that idea, because every label, every word carries a baggage around it, you see? So inherently this idea of body carries the notion of me being contained in that body; it carries the baggage of these ideas about the body, about beauty, about being a container, about aging. All these gravitate around the central idea of body, you see? And if you don't label it that way, then all these start to crumble. Who is aging? What is aging? Who is man or woman? Who is separate from who? What defined the boundary, you see? All those start to crumble. You'll see the trick of labels. Just what seem like very innocent labels actually can be very limiting. This is a simple living body. There's so many notions that hang around with it, you see? Fear about death, fear of aging, fear of representing self-image—all of these things can be around a simple idea of a body.

Yes, yes, yes. I have looked at body with fear and really like a tool that keeps me down, you know.

And if you drop the label, if you drop all labels, then there is no distinction—me and you, me and the world, you see? All these dissolve, and yet it is already available to us in our perception itself. So it's not as if we lost something. I take this example that I don't need to call this cup and coffee or chai to be drinking from the cup, no? A child doesn't need to know 'bottle,' 'milk powder,' you see, 'water mixing.' It doesn't know any of those; it just takes and drinks. So it doesn't impede the functioning, the natural functioning which is happening through the natural intelligence of consciousness. So life can... that intelligence which is running this entire universe is still operating, and it's not going to abandon us because we lose past our conceptual limited ideas.

Sure, sure. So there's freedom. What is going to happen if I just stop referring to or taking the label seriously? Then how will I be able to live my life or control my life? That is the fear that the mind itself will present to you. But you will notice that everything seems to be operating so beautifully. The birds, the animals, the plants, you see? Everything seems to be moving in its own intelligent way. Like I take this example of a newborn bird: when it's season to migrate, even when there is no flock, it just starts flying in the right direction of where it's supposed to go in summer. But it doesn't know west or east; it doesn't know season or not season. But there's an intelligence which guides it and takes it where it's meant to go. So in humanity, somewhere we've lost touch with that intelligence and started relying on a more primitive sort of limited intelligence of individuality. And coming to satsang is to let go of that and to allow this deeper primal intelligence to take hold. We don't need to rely on emotions and ideas. So I think the fear associated with the body could be creating a lot of problems too.

Exactly. It is one of the most fear-inducing concepts. This is just four letters: body. This actually, the label has all this trouble, but this itself is fairly innocent and natural, you see? There's no trouble with this itself. What we call the body itself has no trouble. It is the labels which are oppressive. This is an innocent instrument. It's not doing anything. It is not binding you in any way. It is not a chain around you or something. It's fine. It's just sitting around, you see? It's fine. But when we identify 'I am the body'—and the way to identify is to have a label—so that is what becomes oppressive, not the appearance in itself.

I want freedom from this label, Father. I submit myself to your feet.

Yes, yes. To see through it, you see? As you're seeing through it...

The labels which are oppressive—this is an innocent instrument. It's not doing anything. It is not binding you in any way. It is not a chain around you or something. It's fine. It's just sitting around, you see? It's fine. But when we identify 'I am the body,' and the way to identify is to have a label, so that is what becomes aggressive, not the appearance in itself.

I want freedom from this label, Father. I submit myself to you. Defeat it.

Yes, yes. To see through it, you see? As you're seeing through it and you're inquiring into the true nature of it, that is to be free from it as well. Thank you so much. Very good. All right, thank you. Let's close with some bhajans. Do we have a singer who wants to sing or should I play something? Okay, if somebody feels like singing, just raise your hand. I mean, well, I'll play a version from YouTube.

Okay. Can we have one more actually from—Radha is still here? The new favorite one. Can you hear me? Yes, yes, yes. Not so loud, but it's okay. You want that one? Okay, sit down here. Whatever you feel. I'll sing this, but don't say 'khudi.' Okay, this is what's coming right now.

Very nice. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. Satguru Prasad.