How Do We Get From ‘I Think God Is With Us’ to ‘I Know God Is With Us’ - 16th January 2026

So it is said that the ant gets that tiny amount of food every day and the elephant gets big, big tons of food. Who does all that? From the tiniest insect to the biggest mammal, who does all that? So what is the reason that we could have to worry, especially if we have insight about the fact that He is with us? So what is a good reason to worry? Huh? Body is feeling shaky, but He is here. He is the creator and protector of billions and billions. What is one body for Him? He's here. You see, and we ourselves have gone through so many bodies. Like Krishna said, the Lord said in the Gita, that like we change clothes, we have gone through bodies. So body is shaky when He is here means nothing. And I'm not saying that I'm speaking from a perch where I am saying I am over all of this. This is what I am also beginning to understand. So I always share what I'm currently working on with all of you openly that way. But that is what my heart is telling me.

So, 'Body, I'm running out of money. My relationships are not what I think they should be.' All of these things are not worth worrying about because we are confident not in our own strength but in His strength. So when we invoke Him, when we remember Him, it is that we become present to His presence. We become present to His presence and there's great power in that. There's great strength in that. So just to live in that way, to be present to His presence, is to be in unceasing prayer. And if we can be present with Him when Maya is playing out in this way, then we'll definitely be present with Him when Maya is gone.

Gone when we die or sleep?

That's what the sages have told us, that the idea is to be with Him even in the temptation of Maya so that we can be with Him when the temptations of Maya are not there. Now what happens is that Maya realizes that these ones are warriors of God. So it will play in a way where all the phenomenal aspects at its disposal then seem to act in concert to make us involved in worry and anxiety. You see, they seem to all come together. It happens. One day you say, 'Today I'm going to really pray,' then you get a call, 'This happened. What about this? Should we do this? We have to do this urgency.' You see, it all comes together. So they say when it rains, it pours. There's something in that because Maya is using the chance. 'Oh, you were going to pray all day, is it? Let's see.' So we must value every opportunity that we have without distraction. Value that deeply. Don't postpone. You see, because when you postpone, then you will see something has happened. You see?

So the good thing is that Maya seems to have inexhaustible power, but it doesn't. It takes breaks. It leaves us alone every day. It leaves us alone for some time. You see, those times we must run to God and then when it comes back in force, rejuvenated, then we are already steady in God's strength. You see, so we stay there. But the mistake we do often is that we think we learn this conceptually, so when Maya attacks, then I'll be able to fight back. That's probably the most difficult time to fight back. You see, we must build our foundation when we don't have a distraction. If we have built that strong foundation, strong strength, then Maya comes and says, 'Oh, what about this? What about this?' Then we are strong in God's presence. You see, so when we remain strong like that, then our life becomes completely devoted to being in His presence, completely devoted to unceasing prayer—prayer, inquiry, whatever modality we pick, it all goes together. You see, faith, humility, patience, and forbearance.

Forbearance is just the strength to go through the vagaries of pain and pleasure and all of these things that life hits you with. Okay. So all of these are interrelated. All of these things come together. So just confidence in that He is here.

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because none of us, especially I, cannot say that I'm completely over my worry, I'm completely over all anxiety. You see, so it's a constant deepening, constant growing in faith. And nobody can get a measure of God. What is another definition of Maya? I feel Papaji said, or some of the sages have told us, that which can be measured is Maya. You see, so that which can be measured is Maya. That which is beyond measure is God. Please come. It's a constant growing in trust. How to cross that chasm between 'I think He is with us' to 'I know He is with us.' Thinking poses as knowing in most things anyway. You see, now in this case, maybe we have to start like that. Maybe we have to start like that. You see, but to cross the chasm of thinking, to really know has a different texture in satsang. Not like 'I know the capital of Timbuktu,' which I don't know, but even if I had the concept of what it is, that is not the knowing that we are talking about.

How do we know love? Suppose a Martian came to Earth and said, 'In Mars we don't have this thing. We've been observing you humans for thousands of years and all of you are obsessed with this thing called love. You see, can you just... we are here just to find out about it. Can you tell us, what is this love?' You may say it makes you like this, it does like this, it makes you fearless. It does. But we cannot really get them to know love, you see, the way that we know love. So the knowing of God and the knowing of His love, the knowing of His light, is exactly like that. You don't know it just conceptually. And then as you, just like in the world you get to know someone by spending time with them, in the same way we get to know God by spending time with Him. How do we know that He loves us? By spending time with Him. How do we know that He is the Lord of the universe? No, not just conceptually, not just because we heard the stories and the histories. We know in our heart, just like we know love in our heart.

Even to just feel the love, isn't that to know that God loves me? No, there's more than that.

More than that. To feel the love is a... yes, you feel the outpouring in a felt way. And that outpouring, often I've called it the prasad, but not the darshan—which means the offering when you go to a holy place, but not the actual vision, which is not perceptual. Usually the offering is tasted perceptually, but the vision is met through a different set of eyes. That's why I keep asking you, do you feel like you know how to spend time with God?

Yeah. Today in the day I had a moment, you know, I have had many such moments in my satsang life where I felt like now that this pointer has come, I don't need to share anything else. It's come many times. When I was a young, naive child who started sharing satsang, by God's grace, I don't know how it happened, but it just came to me that all I need to remind everyone is that we are not to believe one thought. That's it. And I felt like, what else is needed to be said? You see, then I know that now a little more, that Maya is not that easy to handle because it makes a lot of thoughts about not believing our next thought. 'But see, I'm still believing a lot of thoughts. Don't believe the next thought, but see, now I'm never going to get this, it's never going to happen.' All of these thoughts about believing or not believing thoughts, many of you got trapped in that trap.

So then one day there were many like this. 'Are you aware now?' came one day. Like, just all you need to answer is, 'Are you aware now?' It came like that, that after that nothing needs to be said. It came like that. Then many, many like this. So one day it came, and this really felt like the Shiva meditation, that I'm just going to tell everyone: 'And what do you know when you know nothing?' If to know even one thing was to know too much, what do you know when you know nothing? I felt it is so clear. So clear. Stupid of me, very naive of me, of course. So I just felt that's it. You see, it has no room for maneuver. You can't get confused about it like 'don't believe your next thought.' You see, just don't know. And what you know then is the truth that I'm talking about. I felt I'll just say that, that would be enough, like that. Then many things.

So today it came that unceasing prayer, to just be with God constantly in a way that I say, 'Ram, Ram, Ram,' and He hears me say, 'Ram, Ram, Ram,' and then after a while it is Atma itself praying, either in the form of saying the words or praying in silent devotion, and I am watching this holiness in front of me. So it seemed like sometimes I am the driver of this and sometimes He Himself is the driver of this. And it's subtle. He's always the driver of this; I'm not saying He's not, but I'm talking about what it feels like when we get on this endeavor to be with God. So I am praying, 'Who am I?' and He witnesses this, and then the wonder, the question shifts its place. And I'm just watching from there. So traditionally this process has been given many words: sadhana or whatever fancy things, contemplative prayer, contemplative meditation—all of these terms have been used for this. But our life shifts into this active seeming prayer and then infused prayer within our heart unceasingly.

We were talking about what it feels like when we get on this endeavor to be with God. So I am praying 'Who am I?' and He witnesses this, and then the wonder, the question shifts its place. And I'm just watching from there. So traditionally this process has been given many words: sadhana or lecture dena or whatever fancy things—contemplative prayer, contemplative meditation—all of these terms have been used for this. But our life shifts into this active-seeming prayer and then infused prayer within our heart unceasingly, nirantar. And I just feel like another, in my heart, by God's grace, another master key has been given to us for us to lead our lives in this devoted-to-His-presence way.

So when you take God's name or when you inquire into who you really are, do you notice that that process is being witnessed in your heart? You see, so that is God watching you pray in your heart temple and going through various stages of practice. It becoming almost automatic-seeming in the head is called ajapa japa. Then it falling into the heart with some push required. Then it becoming automatic. See, automatic being a bad way to say God Himself, the Atma Himself, is praying; it becomes that way in the heart itself. So you enter the temple and the prayer is infused in the walls of the temple itself and you feel it deeply in your heart.

And the rest of it is what happens to our faculties as a result of that. So in India we may call it, um, savikalpa samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi, things like that. In the West, sages like St. Teresa of Avila have called it prayer of quiet, prayer of union, divine marriage, divine union, betrothal and then union. All these gradations have been given to us to inspire us and also to not be scared when these things happen. You see? So, but the idea is just to be present to His presence. You see, either in an active way or allowing Him to—like the Atma loves to pray, the spirit loves to pray—and we can just be an audience to that till our whole soul, our whole antahkarana, is fully imbued, fully merged into the Atma itself where this apparent seeming division will not seem plausible in the divine union or the God-realization that is as it is. All but suppose that it never led to any sort of outcome at all. This itself would be worth it for itself. Isn't it? Nothing higher we need to aspire to than to be with God. Then He merges you in. Then He merges you in. Till then, just to be with Him is as far as our mind-intellect goes; there's no difference. 784 638. Okay, thank you.

The point is not to let what I have said frustrate you in any way because if only the first part is accessible to you, that itself is enough. If you feel that 'I don't know what he's talking about, God loving to pray or the Atma loving to pray in my heart,' it's okay. We don't have to rush into these things and we don't have to imagine things. For us to invoke His name or to inquire is more than enough. Pass my path to Sonali.

I just had a, you know, when we spoke about our lives—all of our lives—there are periods when, or even in a day there are periods where we are not challenged by Maya, right? And those are gifts, and what we are learning is that that is the time to build our relationships with presence.

Yes.

And um, when Maya comes strong, like I had recently some incidents, and what I found that time was that there was no question of sitting quietly in an inquiry or anything. It was impossible. But I started doing very actively japa for the first time in my life. It took up because I was not able at all to do anything that I had. Um, so I was doing like, and not so loudly also, not just sitting quietly doing in my mind, but actually saying loudly the things. And then when that subsided, I put away the mala. I never took it—is it okay like this to swing between these?

It's okay, yes. Because sometimes it comes very strongly and we need something gross to give us that support. Okay. So to bring out the tools at the right time is perfectly fine. You see, all that I was saying is that let's not presume that now that we know how to fight, then we can just fight when Maya is strong.

Yeah.

You see, we must build the foundation when we are distraction-free as much as possible every day in a focused way, at least two hours every day, and then to continue that throughout the day. Yeah. So, and I've said often that at least in my case, unless I do focused for at least one hour, one and a half hours, it's not that easy to just stay with His presence normally. I'm just starting out, starting out this.

Nobody said... can you say more about even if nothing special happens, why just saying the name or just inquiring, that in itself—not just a framing, actually?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can be a bit dramatic about that, but let's start with the simpler way. Okay, we notice that every moment, or at least almost every moment, the mind has something to offer. Yeah, it is giving us a position for us to hold: likes, dislikes, desire, aversion, all of these things constantly. You see, so the more we fill up ourselves with these vasanas—these are the vasanas, these are the conditions—because when a thought is believed in, that's when it becomes a condition. You see, 'I want to live on the 22nd floor.' Before that thought came, it was nothing, you see. And if you just let it go, it's still nothing. But once it's believed in, then it's become a vasana for us.

Somebody comes to you with an offer: 'There's a, by the way, there's a flat on the 22nd floor.' It's like, 'I wanted a flat on the...' which is completely irrelevant to us before that thought came. You see, and then it becomes a condition that we have, or even worse, like 'I don't want.' So if I'm living on the eighth floor and a condition becomes 'I don't want to live on the eighth floor,' you see, then we are just looking for ways to exit the eighth floor. So these non-existent things, vaporware as I've been calling it, then when it comes and it's offered to us and then with the power of our belief—we often, I've called belief the tongs—we take the tongs of belief and we pull this thought into our antahkarana, into our soul, and it becomes part of our makeup: 'This is who I am, this is what I like, this is what I don't.'

Okay, now instead of that, the mind is trying to offer you various things but you are in Ram. So the simplest way to look at it is that you cannot build new conditioning, new vasanas, when you're taking the name of God attentively, lovingly throughout that time; then you're safe from that. The same thing comes with the inquiry. So if you say 'I don't want eighth floor' and say 'Who is this I who doesn't want eighth floor?' then it's just discarded as rubbish, right? Because the 'I' itself is not found. What eighth floor are we talking about? You see, so both these ways are given to us so that we don't fall into creating new conditioning.

And when we are not creating new conditioning, what happens? The cleanup happens. The cleanup happens. All the false is ejected out. And that's why many times when just when we start the process, it feels horrible because I feel like I'll be so peaceful, I'll be so happy, but see what is coming, but see what is coming. Now this is coming, now this is coming, you see. But actually it's not coming, it's going. You see, as we start to immerse ourselves in the holy stuff, then the unholy stuff is being ejected out of us. But the mind tries to use that to keep a position about it by saying, 'See what is coming to you. Stop this rubbish.' You see, that's why many people get into this fallacy that once you get into spirituality you actually suffer a lot more. You see, much of that is all the stuff which has been repressed and we have been fearful of wanting to meet, now is coming to the surface to leave us.

Yes. Yes. Like when that TV thing happened. I don't know, Father, then I told someone about this and he told me that every path is a path of seeking and what is sought through the path is the end of seeking. And how I saw there was some truth to it. Even Father, many times you told me, you know, when I was doing these I was obsessed with how I should be with God's love, trying to get to something I don't have. And in the last what you said about how blessed we are that God has given His name, and when I was focusing more on just staying that I have the name and I can say the name, there was less seeking. But this is too framing—there's a bit of a framing, conceptual framing there—and I see the truth to it. There is something to it, not seeking somewhere, somehow. I don't know how to do this. That's what I want to ask you.

It's, it's, it's language is troublesome. So for many years I've shared things like the whole point is to see that we have never left the destination. You see, I was trying to convey the same message that there's nothing to seek. You already are that. You see, you are already that. But then that becomes like a non-seeking way to seek. 'I'm just not going to seek.' So then we are seeking through non-seeking. You see, so who comes to empty just by hearing that you are that already? A very rare one. A very rare one comes to that real empty because he's like, 'Is it working for me? Is it happening?' You see, and that then becomes a very convoluted sort of belief system that we can fall into.

It can work. You see, the Ribhu Gita or the Ashtavakra or Avadhuta is just told that you are that, what are you doing? Why are you meditating? So, um, and we've shared Ashtavakra many times but I realized that then we can get into like that chasm between mentally knowing 'I am that' and that insight 'I am that.' You see, that's a, that's a strange one. That's a strange one. So it can be that you hear that you are that, you see, 'Just stop it, just stop it, you are that.' You see, you may hear that and you may just fall into your heart like 'I am that' from the heart, you see. But many times it feels like 'I have to be convinced that I am that,' you see, and 'I have to stay convinced.' So somebody, 'What do you want for breakfast?' 'Oh, I am that.' You see, I'm just making it absurd so that we get... I've seen some of this actually, especially in spiritual places, so-called spiritual places.

So, it's just like because—and it's nobody's fault—it's just that it feels like the sages seem so convinced about this. Then the way that I must get to this is to be convinced about this. You see, so if I'm... 'Anyway, what would you like?' 'Who are you talking to? You see, who are you talking to?' So then often we used to joke about this in satsang. I don't know if you were there, what he used to say, huh? Yeah. 'The I, that awareness that I am, playing the role of consciousness, within that there's an object called this body with this name and form. The body is experiencing some sensation of hunger and it feels like some desire in its mind is there for some spaghetti today.' You see, so you tell a waiter that? It's only possible in Tiruvannamalai that you can tell a waiter. Anybody in Bangalore will throw you out, 'Leave, leave this place!'

So, so that is the kind of convoluted sort of thing that we are avoiding because hardly anyone tells us that it's not a matter of mental conviction. Many people think it's a matter of mental conviction. So what is that which... see, King Janaka was already a great, great devotee. He went to Ashtavakra and Ashtavakra told him, 'Stop your seeking,' and something just registered. So it is the only scripture where the updates, the pointers, are in the first chapter between the seeker and the sage; then the rest of the Ashtavakra Gita is a conversation between two sages. It's a conversation between two sages. So, so it can happen like that. When you hear the truth, something may catch fire and you may, you see. But if you make a seeking out of non-seeking again, then we are not... see, like 'My path now is I'm not going to seek.' You often spoken about this, no? That 'Now I don't plan, I just live spontaneously.'

The pointers are in the first chapter between the seeker and the sage; then the rest of the Ashtavakra Gita is a conversation between two sages. It's a conversation between two sages. So it can happen like that when you hear the truth, something may catch fire and you may, you see. But if you make a seeking out of non-seeking again, then we are not... see, like my path now is I'm not going to seek. You've often spoken about this, no? That now I don't plan, I just live spontaneously. And it sounds very nice, you see, but some of us can spot that that is now your new plan, you see. That 'I don't plan now, I just live spontaneously'—isn't that the new plan? Those who don't plan now don't have a plan to live spontaneously.

I'll give an example. ChatGPT suggested this when I'd asked myself, 'Who's aware of this?' An alternative it gave was: anything that comes up, this is known, this is known, this that I have access to. That's not seeking, that's knowledge I have. This is known. So similarly, when you said God's name, I don't need to seek it. I know God's name and I can just say it. I'm struggling, I don't know how to phrase it, but even if it's not complete insight, some miniature insight, and I stay there. And perhaps something next will come up, but I'm not seeking. There's something I'm trying... I don't know, there's some truth to it.

Let's say that if we held on to the pointer 'I'm not seeking,' we held on to that, then what would happen? The mind is constantly offering us ways to get better, ways to get better. So we are basically allowing these mind propositions to come and go, being stable there, being stable like that. But often I've seen that it becomes two sides of the mind arguing with each other: 'No, what about this?' 'But I'm not seeking.' You see, then it becomes just a tennis match which gives us a neck ache, nothing else. We are just watching two sides of the mind fight. One is sounding like the truth and the other one is proposing a lot of things, and we just make it again convoluted. So what are the safest ways to not seek? Find out who you are or take God's name. That's one way to look at it.

Why can't you use ChatGPT as a teacher? At least not yet, because it's not intuitive. It's a very good repository of information which it frames—it's designed to frame very beautifully—and I love using it for worldly things, but it cannot be a replacement for a Guru because it is not intuitive. And you can ask it about that.

I'm trying to come to some middle ground. I see the truth that seeking causes suffering, and on the other hand, I see the value.

If you stay in the middle ground of every two positions, you can never be in trouble. So stay in the middle ground of seeking and not seeking. Where are you?

This is interesting. I don't know.

I don't know. It's interesting. Yes. See, stay in the middle ground of 'I know' and 'I don't know.' Where are you?

Same.

See, no, but stay in the middle ground of being empty or full on that path. I'm just saying don't be conclusive about anything. Then if you say that this Madhyamaka way of Nagarjuna appeals to me, then apply it. See, then middle ground is available with everything. Now you can't take a position. You can't even say 'I'm taking a middle ground' because take the middle ground between middle and not middle. No, really, if you really want to dive into that, then you have to really dive into: what does the middle ground mean? If you went to Nagarjuna and said, 'Does the middle ground mean that I have to stay in the middle ground?' he would say no. No, I promise you he would say no. You see, so that whole... like a lot of the Zen path is inspired by his way. So it is just... the answer to everything is no. Is the answer to everything no? No. Like that, it leaves no room for our intellect to grasp. And in that way, again, what happened? We are falling into the heart. You see, are we falling into the heart? No. In that part. So it's not a... I love that part. Do I love it? No.

So whatever resonates with you, but don't... like our mind will constantly offer things to come into opposition for something, you see. And if you just take the opposing position, then you won't get anywhere. Then you say, 'Okay, middle ground.' What is the middle ground between opposing and accepting this position?

Trying.

Huh?

Trying.

What is the middle ground between trying and not trying? You can't stop. No, that then that's like saying when I do the inquiry, 'Who am I?' the mind says, 'You are body-mind.' Okay, I did the inquiry, it said I'm the body-mind. You have to take it further. No, who is witnessing this? You see, so not the first answer that you get. 'I take the middle ground.' So now, middle ground between accepting something and not accepting something. For example, I don't feel it's trying, but for example, if you say it's trying that that is the solution, then it gives you another proposal to find the middle ground on: what is the middle ground between trying and not trying? So it brings you to the same point of Neti Neti, same point of Zen, same point of silence, same point of Nididhyasana. You can, my child, you will not escape the stillness that you have to come to. You see, you cannot. Whatever way you go, you'll ultimately hit that ground where the intellect cannot reach. It seems like stillness to us where the mind-intellect cannot reach.

Then, and then if you start noticing it in this way, you will find the same construct in every... and all these spiritual paths will just seem like toys. You see, just like toys which we have designed just to bring us to that stillness, to that silence where we are mentally not so obsessed with concluding, not so grasping for conclusions constantly. You see, that is painful work because we want to build a position to say, 'This is what I can conclude after 10 years of spirituality.' But just to meet that, just to meet the fact that we can't really conclude, is painful for the ego. It's painful for the ego. Would we have to undergo some of that to just dive into the deeper place? So how would you hear that as a Madhyamaka follower, say 'deeper place'? What's in the middle of deeper and shallower? That's why they offered this proposition like this. They would say, 'What is tinier than the tiniest and yet larger than all the universes put together?' Once you find that, you'll find the truth. Now you can beat up your intellect as much as you like; you will not fit that there.

You see, so know that also, that no true spiritual path is in opposition with each other. Because if you meet it deeply, you will see that it brings us to a different instrument. All of them have to bring us to a different instrument. We can fall into the Atma's discipleship through devotion or by really questioning the nature of our thoughts and the nature of reality. You see, both will bring us to a different teacher. And that's how it's very difficult to frame these things. So somebody says, 'But you are Advaita, no?' Like, am I? 'But you are mainly a Bhakta now.' Am I? You can't really say. It just depends on what mood the Atma is in that day. Who can really see? But what is a given? If it is spirituality, it is spirit. Okay. You cannot... you will not be able to escape spirit in spirituality. So Atma-less spirituality cannot be done. And then if you hold on to mind-intellect too strongly, then spirit is not possible. So whatever spiritual path you take, if it is true, it will take you beyond the mind-intellect either in a very strong 'chop chop chop' way like a Zen way, or in a loving way. You replace the central character of your narrative with God. You see, it seemed like a more loving way. The other one may seem more loving depending on your temperament. But in whichever way, we have to get over this producer of Vasana and fall into that who is the holy one in our heart.

Maybe it's a bit basic, like, what about... you were talking earlier about don't get caught with a new Vasana, no? But comes a little doubt: what about the old Vasanas, you know? And sometimes I doubt how much importance to give to them, because we are deepening in this thing that that one to whom that Vasana is related doesn't really exist. But they seem to come or be there. No? So, for example, this approach that you were talking about, the middle ground, would apply in the same way to strong positions or conditioning that we have had? In the same way, like to go to the middle or...

I'm... no, it's okay. Let's see what comes. So, in the process of... these Vasanas need to be constantly activated, energized, you see. Because what is the oldest condition you have? You can't remember because you have not thought about it for so long that it died, you see. So these conditions have to be regularly kept up by the mind, you see. So if you look at it, all of us have a few main conditions, you see, and the mind keeps offering those at regular intervals just to keep them alive. You see, because if they're not thought about, if you don't energize them with new belief, new identity, then they die. We just forget about them. So don't worry about having to clean up the old; that is happening naturally. You see, that's just happening naturally. Then you're not building new condition. Then old conditioning will take care of itself. God's light itself will shine on them and clean them up so that we don't have to. So that's one aspect of it.

Then you said, then you take the middle ground. Is it a process to do that? Is that like, if practically one would approach the same way something that has played out like a Vasana or has been very strong in one's path? Also, I see like maybe there is a concept that these Vasanas are like something stored somewhere, you know, like some... but now you are saying this, that they have to be re-energized. Like they have... maybe, yeah, to see them not as something so real. I don't know if I'm explaining.

Yeah, it's somewhere, no, in the middle. We're just borrowing from... so now, did... were you here when we did the exercise where I was saying if you close your eyes and you imagine yourself as an old woman sitting on the banks of the Ganga in Haridwar, and then you just believe lots of thoughts about this woman and what's going to happen, all of that, you see? Then all that construct, is that somewhere or is it nowhere? You see, for some time it seems to linger. Then after a few minutes, you'll forget about all of that because you didn't keep energizing it with new thoughts about that old woman. You see, now suppose you believed that old woman has a pain in her back and she doesn't have money for food tonight. Then ten ideas like this, you see. And you then didn't give it just any other belief for the next one hour, then all these ten would go away also, you see. But if you believed an eleventh one, then those other ten also seem to get some activation, you see. You added a new leaf to the tree and the rest of the tree seems to get energized in some way.

But if you don't nurture it directly with belief, then those old conditions will fade away and you'll get a new... and that's what happened to us. Like, we had a different set of beliefs, like the Lin, say, 15 years ago cannot be compared to the Lin today because his constructs are completely different. No, all of them, the older ones died and the new ones now get activated. So, although adding on indirect notions also seems to activate the rest of the tree, but until we nurture each branch individually, at least after some periods of time, they will become stale and old; they won't be recognizable, you see. So yeah, so where is this tree of conditioning? Is it real? Is it not real? What can we say? What can we say? Where is that old lady? All of you have her somewhere. No. Now, do you really have her? You don't really. What is 'really'? It's difficult to see.

So, although adding on indirect notions also seems to activate the rest of the tree, but till we don't nurture each branch individually, at least after some periods of time, they will become stale and old; they won't be recognizable, you see. So, yeah, so where is this tree of conditioning? Is it real? Is it not real? What can we say? What can we say? Where is that old lady? All of you have her somewhere, no? Now, do you really have her? Is it you don't really? What is really? It's difficult to see.

Maybe the difference I find is that it seems that maybe for many of us there has been things that, um, repetitive narratives, you know, like things with money, relationship, or whatever. So that, maybe because we, and we without consciousness nurture that throughout time.

No, but see, every tree of conditioning has four main branches.

What are they?

Health of the body, security in the form of money and things, and meaning in the form of knowledge, and relationships. You see, these are the main four branches. We are hardly troubled by anything else. Within that, there are different, different small things which then make us all individual in our own way. See, because if only our bodies were different but all of us had the same conditioning, like exactly the same belief system, then we'd all be like programmed robots. This would be the same. It's like meeting your twin everywhere, except that bodily differences. No, everybody has their own idea about everything. I don't know if that answers the question.

So, but the good news is that the not picking up of new conditioning takes care of the older. So in the Jnana path, no new conditioning is picked up at all. In the Bhakti path, all old conditioning is replaced by God. God is merciful. He is kind. He is powerful. He loves me. I love Him. You see, everything where the centrality is about God. You see, both lead to the same point. So conditioning is trouble when it is 'me'. I remember when Swamiji—I don't know, he keeps coming to my memory from point to point—that she had sent here. So this Swamiji was here and he struggled, you know. He was like, first he tried various things to escape what was being said. So then one day he just came and said, 'I just can't do this, you know. I feel something with you, I feel you are very genuine and all of that, but I can't do this what you're saying.' And I don't know what he said, some of you were here, and I remember just telling him, 'Okay, now if to remove yourself from the picture seems impossible, then you replace yourself with God in the picture.' You see, that is easier for you. Is that easier? Can you do that? But of course, I didn't make much in that case.

But so, when to just fall into empty seems very difficult, then at least we can replace the 'me' with God in our narratives. But many times our attempt to replace 'me' with God is in this way: that 'I had Darshan of God. I felt this when I said Krishna.' So then that is not replacing. Then God is in the way of our framing; then you are the central and God is secondary because it's about what you felt, you saw, you thought, you concluded. You see, it has to be: God is here. I am nothing, or He is everything. I am the tiniest grain of sand, authentically. Not just lip service—everybody can do that—but authentically. And that then deepens us. It makes us fall into the heart again. And the mind is not then interested in playing much. As long as the 'me' is not getting activated more and more, you see, then what happens is that the heart itself gives us ways to praise the Lord. The heart itself loves to pray. It loves to praise God. It loves to point us to the truth.

But we have to offer our consent. Spirituality is completely a consensual process. God will not force our hand to love Him. But when we take one step towards Him with full consent, all the pathways open up for us. And one of the pathways which I'm really happy about sharing with all of you is just to not normalize the fact that God is here. Just to recognize the magnificence of that fact. That's how we started today's conversation, that God-confidence comes from the faith in His presence here, and then that faith also tells us how magnificent, how awesome He is. Now, if you were to see this in a pratyaksha way, or see it in a sensorially apparent way, you see, then that itself may have been powerful, but then that will get us attracted, attached to the false again.

Okay. So, faith then becomes the eyes through which we can—we don't have to find in the sensorially apparent way. We can trust what we are seeing in the eyes of the heart itself. You see, and if you learn to meet God and love God in this way, it will not be a reduction of the magnificence that you find, you see, but a greater, more awesome magnificent. You see, a quick-fix solution may be that if Ram Ji was to make an appearance physically, you see, it may seem like, 'But wouldn't that really help?' You see, but it is really worth questioning. Would that really help? You see, it can seem like, 'How would that not help?' And maybe in some cases that would help. But for God to appear within Maya would mean that He has lost faith in us, not being able to meet Him in faith. That sounded too complicated, no?

Okay. So, He has faith. I feel like I'm nobody to talk about God, but I feel He has faith that we can meet Him in faith and not reduce Him to phenomena. You see, maybe one day if He doesn't have that faith in us and we are desperate, maybe He makes that appearance. You see, so it's coming to say—I never really contemplated this before—but I feel He has faith in our faith. He has faith that we will meet Him in our faith, which is the higher meeting in a way. It's like, what is the conversation? Was it with Jesus and Little John?

You see, huh? Little James. Little James.

So Little James says, 'Rabbi, you've blessed so many and you've healed them.' I'm paraphrasing, of course. 'So, but you can obviously see that I also have a problem with my leg and I walk with a stick and a limp, and through me also so much healing has happened now. You see, but this has been weighing on my heart so deeply. Why haven't you healed me yet?' You see, so that's a beautiful, beautiful conversation. Whether you're Christian or not, or whether you believe in Christ or not, you must see this conversation because that is so... Jesus tells him that, 'You don't need my physical healing. You don't need this thing because your faith is greater than that. Your faith in me doesn't have to rely on these miracles to play out. Your faith can be just based on love itself.' Again, I'm paraphrasing too much maybe, but this is the way I met that scene where we don't need to have miracles happen around us to deepen in our love for God.

How many do you think I and Father trust with this kind of faith?

Yes, thank you. So He told him, 'How many do you feel that me and my Father trust with this kind of faith? And you are one of them.' So you don't need your life to change or miracles to happen or your leg to get fixed. So is our faith that feeble that we will trust and have faith in God only if He was to make a physical appearance in front of us? Our heart is already telling us the reality. So He has faith in our faith. Is that faith misplaced? It is not. He cannot be wrong. This part, like if He has faith in our faith, could He be making a mistake? Can't be. He knows us through and through. So it is apparent if you look at the entire history of humanity that God Himself considers us meeting Him in the Nirguna way the highest. You see, because He has always had to be cajoled into showing the phenomenal form. Arjuna is not listening for many chapters, no, before He says, 'Okay, see now.' And what happened even after seeing?

Nothing. Because any phenomena the mind will normalize after some time.

I will try to find something I know in faith and hold on to it to grow it, something I know in faith.

Say again?

I'm trying to find something I know in faith to hold on to so it may grow, so I remain in faith.

The finding in faith you want to replicate in the physicality?

No. No. So something I know in faith is something I know through not conceptually nor perceptually.

Yes.

And staying with that instrument grows that instrument.

Yes.

So I want to hold on to something like that so that I—

That I didn't get. What do you mean by 'something like that'? I also don't get, and I'm trying to find something which I know through faith.

Love. We've spoken about this. That love is something which you only know through faith.

But with me, it's the perceptual. I felt—

That's what I was asking. So you want what is in faith, which is beyond perception and concept, to be grasped at a perceptual level? Something which I've already known, know without perception, without conception, which I can remain in, so that I remain in that instrument.

The instrument I don't need to switch. In fact, you already know, let's say, intuitively.

Yes.

Why not just remain in that intuitive knowing?

What do I know intuitively? That's what I'm asking.

Love.

I don't... I feel... do I know that really?

When you love someone, you always have loving feelings toward them? In that moment, no. You could be angry. You could be feeling something very different. But if you are asked, 'Do you love them?' Like I talk about children. Like with my children, many times we can be angry with them or frustrated with them. If somebody says, 'Do you love your children?' You say, 'Of course.' Ask yourself, is there God? Is there God? Seriously, sincerely ask. Even coming to Satsang, something, you see, why you come for so many years, huh? It's not that you're satisfied on a mental level or a perceptual level. There's nothing on offer really here for those levels. Something gets you. And I was so sure of that because even when you said, you know, 'I'm considering,' or I said, 'No, you come because something gets you.' Something gets you. What is that? We don't know, like we don't know in the traditional way, but we must be knowing somewhere that that's why we come.

So, if your head doesn't know why you come to Satsang, but you still come, that's something to look at. Something must be fed somewhere, no? Isn't it? In today's world, you can YouTube anything. YouTube anything. Why go to any Satsang? They sit in the comfort of your home, go to YouTube, search for any topic, you get many discourses about anything. So why go to any Satsang? Something somewhere deeper than mind, intellect, must be getting some food, heart food as I call it. And when Maya is painting its pictures for us, then it doesn't take that into account. But like that, I can just do this and I can manage, you see, I can manage in some way because all these things which are beyond the mind, obviously it will not be able to conclude.

Is there a way I can hold on to this, like to remain in faith?

Yeah. So it depends on what you mean by 'hold on to'. If you mean by 'hold on to' means only perceptually or and conceptually, then no. But you can hold on to faith by just being in that place which I'm pointing to.

Where do I know I should come to Satsang?

Yeah. Or where do you love? Or like she said, how do you know there is God? Any spiritual question brings us to the same place when treated spiritually and not mentally, because the mind will also give us answers. Just pass that to Z. But take the middle path. Who wants to hold on? Just do the hold and not hold. This is joking with you too.

Um, I always have this like question. Um, so in the morning, um, when I get up for prayer, then I'm, I'm right now I'm doing the La ilaha illa Allah, there is no God but God.

Yeah. Or where do you love? Or like she said, how do you know there is God? Any spiritual question brings us to the same place when treated spiritually and not mentally, because the mind will also give us an answer. Just pass that to her. But take the middle path. Who wants to hold on? Just do the hold and not hold. This is joking with you too.

I always have this question. So in the morning when I get up for prayer, right now I'm doing the 'La ilaha illa Allah,' there is no god but God. So I am trying to be with that and trying to be empty. Then the day starts with the work. In that middle path, I don't know, even from the beginning of the day, at least I'm able to say, 'Okay, I have to be with God and focus with God.' But when the work starts or activity starts, it just feels normal. Then I wonder how to be with this pointer which you say, that God is here. I put so many alarms also, but it just snoozes off, you know? Until the time I look forward to satsang, because at that place again I feel, 'Okay, yeah, I have to be here.' Just to make it like a constant—no, like—I'm not able to recognize the greatness of God. I'm normalizing it.

Normalizing what?

This fact. Even taking God's name. Like you said, for two days you have to constantly—

So when you're at work, it seems like those things are so much more important and that God gets normalized?

Yeah. I mean, I don't even understand what really happens at that time. It just feels like what's happening during that patch of the day.

Yes, that's how it works. The more you practice when you get that space to remember Him, the more it'll seep into the rest of your day. You see, as somebody who is a householder and who's had work for most of their life, I've also struggled with this. It is not easy at work when you're in a meeting and you're surrounded by twenty people looking for answers from you to keep your anchor in God. It's very tough. So I'm not going to pretend it's easy, but just as you keep your intention, as you keep your practice high when the opportunities come, as you grab every opportunity, life creates more and more space and it seeps into the rest of this as well. You see, but there's no quick fix. There's no easy way to go to work and have all these responsibilities and still be fully anchored in God.

Even today, if I was to go to a workplace—thankfully now I don't have to go after I'm fifty, almost fifty-one, you see, so it's easier—but if I had to go to a workplace and work from there, it may not be that easy to stay. But God knows. Trust that He knows. And because He knows, then He'll help you on this. He'll create more and more opportunities, He'll create more and more space. That also depends on how much you let go of grasping for worldly outcomes. You see, so if you say, 'I want to be number one in God-realization and number one at work also,' it's not so easy. You say, 'God, God, God,' and let the rest of it happen the way He wants then. And that's still not as scary as Jesus saying to that man, 'Sell everything that you have and donate to the poor and then follow me.' You see, so if you want God, are you willing for Him to decide how your work is going to go for you? If you want God primarily, are you willing to let Him decide how your work goes? I was answering both of you. Or do you want to achieve also there and also here?

Father, that's the point. When I go to work, it pokes me so much that my juniors are getting promoted and I'm stuck in the same role. But I've got so much space and I'm doing my sadhana and I'm enjoying that. Work-wise, thankfully it's not that demanding, so I somehow manage.

Yeah. I am telling you one thing. There's a seen wealth in this world, but the true wealth is the unseen wealth.

Exactly.

You see, the unseen wealth is your spiritual wealth. And all the sages have told us—Ram Ji, just the other day he was saying that this wealth has no meaning because when you die, it's finished for you. You see, the wealth of taking God's name, that will stay with you. That is the only wealth that will stay with you. So let the world think what it wants. Let people judge. If you know in faith in your heart what is the true wealth, then don't be shaken as much. You know, we will all get shaken to some extent. You see, but don't get as shaken when you see, 'Oh, now my junior has more money than me, has got a better position than me.' All these things will come to focus. You see, and I've seen a lot of that throughout my life.

And in front, they'll be questioning me, 'What are you doing still here?' and all. My parents, everybody. It is so hard to explain to them.

Welcome to our life, everybody. So, I went to visit my village after so many years and a lot of my older cousins I had not met for so long. Many of them are not doing much, they're just at home, and they think, 'Are you just like a baba now, or do you do some work also?' So, basically, my life is for God. It's a tough one. But that's where, as we grow in our faith, we also don't become arrogant and say, 'See all of you losers, you're building worldly wealth, I'm building the true wealth.' So we are not to become arrogant about that also. Many do that. Not just in spirituality, but also there was a time where I was running a nonprofit organization. In the nonprofit, you meet everyone. Everyone says, 'Oh, I was a banker at Citibank, I left a six-figure dollar salary and now I'm taking care of things.' There is too much pride in that.

So we are not to become spiritually proud that I know the true wealth that I am building. But just as a reassurance in our heart, we know that if I had to exchange becoming the king of this world versus spending one moment at God's feet, what would I pick? And we can make the question more and more difficult. You say, 'King of this world forever, like an immortal king of this world, versus one instant at God's feet.' What would you pick? You see, your heart knows the answer. And if it knows that answer, then hold on to that strongly because you're young. You're just starting out at this. By now, people have mostly backed off in my life. Mostly, not 100%. So this is going to be there. It's going to be there. But trust that even in a worldly way, He will take care of you. Your needs will always be taken care of. That famous statement of Gandhi which he said: 'Our needs will always be taken care of, not our greeds.' So if you're all right with your needs being taken care of—

You told her if she knows that, to hold on to it.

Huh?

You told her to hold.

Yeah. Because she's not madam. What I mean is get reassured by the fact that—

Holding on to something you know and feel.

Yeah. I wanted to do that. How to do that? Yeah, just ask the question again, or how to hold on to something?

Like when your mind tries to make you restless.

Rely on what you know in your heart. Like if I say, 'I know in my heart I should come to satsang,' how do I hold on to that? By not getting restless with the mind's prodding. Like take their example: 'Oh, but these ones who joined after me, they're getting bigger promotions, they're doing better, and I'm enjoying spending time in my sadhana and things.' I don't want to be driven like that and waste my time, but it pokes because everybody says, 'But you are still here.' You see? 'We got a higher position.' And family says, 'What is your package now? What is your position now? When was your last promotion? Don't you want to switch jobs?' So when all this poking is coming from Maya, then you hold on to the fact that this is giving me the opportunity to be with God and that is valuable for me. So don't get restless about all of this.

In the same way, if the mind comes and makes you restless—'What are you really getting? What are you understanding? Should I seek, not seek? What is my path?'—you see all of these things. You know in your heart something has brought you to satsang all these years and something you find is there for you. So just hold on to that and don't get shaken. We can look more together. Give it to her.

So today while working—so what is the answer for you? Four? You want to be number one on both ends? Looks like—

Okay. Not number one, but at least not 100.

I want to be last at work. You like that?

Yeah. I struggle with this thing. Sorry, you were saying—

This part also which you said, 'Can I let God take care of my work?' Whatever the work outcome, it's scary. Like, I want to, but no.

You have a job given in the field that you are in. I know how competitive it is, but in one way or the other, you are able to come to satsang.

Oh yes, Father. So that itself is a big gift that life has given you. It's a big, big blessing, Father, because in the previous company I was working with, Ma told me many times that it's okay if you let go, and it was a big firm and this and that, and I didn't want to go. And by God's grace and Ma's blessing, I got this place and they're so chill with me. They're like these Portuguese folks and they're so good, they're so gentle with me. I've never seen a place in finance being so kind. And I always feel—

Portugal. No, you go to Lisbon or you go to even France, by 4:00 they're winding up. At 6:00 to 4:00 work is done. You see? There's not—

They tell me good night at 6:00. I was just work-obsessed. I feel very blessed and at 5:00 I can shut down my laptop and just leave. And despite all this, I keep feeling, 'Oh, but will they not kick me out?' or, 'They'll fire me because maybe I'm not...' But yes, Father, I will try to follow this.

Okay. We also have to look at when our mind is bullying us, we just start remembering how much God has blessed us with. Then that bullying also stops. That's one way also. You have a job now which is rare. No, it is rare to find a job where you're able to come to satsang at 5:30.

Yes. Yes. Thank you, Father. Thank you very much.

Well, some bad news is that I said you can be first in spirituality, but then you have to be okay with being last in the world. But if you want to be first in spirituality, then you can't be first in spirituality. So you have to accept being last in both, then you're first in spirituality. But if you're trying to be last in spirituality so you can be first in spirituality, you can't. You can't fool God. The humbler you are, the less self-concern we have, the lesser self-image we have, the lesser self-consciousness we have about all of these things, the easier this path is. Okay, thank you. Bless you. Bless you.