How Do I Come to Spirit? - 27th February 2026

I missed a little bit of that. My audio—it's not a—no, no, no. I just had to switch because I couldn't hear you well from the speakers. So it's not a plan to move there. It's more about an exploration.

About an exploration service at the moment. It's an exploration with eventually in the next two, three, five years to see where we would like to settle down.

Okay. Yeah. Oh yeah. So you believe in Bangalore?

Yes. Maybe. Maybe. It may happen as it often happens in my case that I just settle for Bangalore.

It would be really nice to go see you in Tiru.

In Tiru, beautiful. Yes. Yes. Tiru. The only objections we've been getting are about the weather for half the year. It's really hot.

So that we can move to Rishikesh during that time. During summer ashram and winter ashram.

Yes. Let's see how God's grace moves. Let's—

Wow. Thank you, Father. And the website is looking amazing. Thank you. The little that I could explore. Thank you. Thank you. Bless you, Father.

So if Maya is about forgetting God, and Atma is about offering ourselves to God and remembering His light, His presence, then really our question in spirituality must be this: how do I come to spirit? Isn't it? Atma is the spirit. Everything in spirituality must lead to the door of the spirit itself. If it seems to step away from spirit more into the 'me', then it is not really a spirituality. If it is not about coming to God, offering ourselves to God, coming to Atma Darshan, an insight about God's presence in our heart, then I would not really call that a spirituality.

And that which we call the heart, sages have called it the inner sanctum sanctorum or the inner cave. We just saw Anandamayi Ma saying that the inner cave is where we will meet the Supreme Being. So satsang then must be the pathway to that inner cave. How do we inhabit that cave, that mansion of the interior castle as Saint Teresa would have called it? How do we move away from the mansions of the world which are about Maya and attachment to Maya to the true dwelling in that holiness?

You see, now what happens is that it is said that the lane is very narrow. You see, great Indian sages have said that; in fact, it's been ascribed to Kabir Ji, to Rahim Ji, to many sages. Yeah. But also in the Bible apparently it is said—I don't know the exact words—but it is said that it is a narrow lane that we must walk. So what is this narrow lane? What is this narrow lane? To stay with God's presence and to not fall for the 'me' because Maya and 'me' coming—Maya as 'me', you see—so the 'me' coming is Maya is directly proportional. So to not fall into identification with the 'me' and to stay with God's light, or to stay with the intention to be with God even if the light doesn't seem palpable yet. Even the intention to stay with the I-amness, with God's presence, with the being, with consciousness, whatever term we want to use, without contaminating it with egoic identity—that then is the narrow path of spirituality and it must be lived moment to moment, you see. It has to be lived moment to moment.

You cannot say, 'I am waiting for that one big chop which will just chop my head off; until then I will just be fully involved in me and Maya.' You see, if there is going to be a chop, it also only comes if our intention is to live empty of the 'me' moment to moment. So this then becomes a spiritual life. Now there is doubt in the mind and there is faith in the heart. You see, remember that they are not functions of the same instrument. So I'm not talking about doubt and belief. I'm talking about doubt versus faith. You see, now what does your faith tell you right now? You see, so your question then should be, if the answer is not clear, 'How do I find out what my faith is telling me right now?'

You see, so then I would say that let go of the thought construct; that is not what your faith is telling you now. That is what your mind is telling you now. Mind is not faith. To come to what your heart is telling you, you must keep yourself empty, receptive, open to receiving from the heart. You see, and if you fill yourself up with mind stuff, which is 'me' stuff, then you will not be able to receive what the Atma is trying to guide you or what faith is trying to tell you. So faith is what the Atma is telling you. You see? So if I say to you that in my faith it is apparent to me that it is God in the form of the Atma itself who prays in my heart, that is something only we can know through faith.

So okay, should I pause the monologue there? Have I lost you all by now or okay? So Atma shows us—what Atma shows us in our heart is what we call we know in faith. For example, we know that God is here. How do we know that? Why I pause is because I feel to go into what we call 'know'. Can we go there? I'll come back, promise, now, or remind me if I get lost in what we call 'know'. So if you had a concept of something, would you call that to know something? Is this also a concept? So if it is not that you had the concept of something—so if you did not have the concept that there are five fingers on a hand, you see, then you have the percept of it. No, the perception of it. So perceptual knowledge is not telling you one, two, three, four, five, but you're inhaling some sight or you're receiving some sight from the senses which is showing you something.

You see, now if you label it with concept, it may start numbering it and labeling it. Without that, you still have perceptual knowledge. Now is faith this kind of sensory experience? Is this kind of sensory experience that which you would call spiritual knowledge? You see, you would not call this also. Okay. Now then where does that leave us? Lost?

No.

Okay. Very good. So then where does that leave us? So where have we come to so far? We've worked together. We've seen that what is important is what the Atma is telling us. And that which the Atma is telling us, we say we know in faith or we know in intuitive insight. Now this intuitive insight or Atma Gyan which we receive is not in the form of conceptual knowledge, nor is it in the form of percepts. Is it so far clear? So then besides these two, what knowledge do we have?

Knowledge coming directly from God. For example—

What do you mean by—like what do you know which is coming directly from God? And it's a trick question, I'm well aware.

Yeah. I'm looking now if it's anything coming because I can only look now. And all is good.

All is good. That is good actually. So the beauty of receiving God in this way, receiving the Atma in this way, is that although in a moment of intuitive insight, God gives us the entirety of Himself, the entirety of Himself doesn't mean that He pushes that to our layers of conceptualizability or articulation or like a manifest experience. You see, so many times it may seem like in the mind's report, 'I'm not receiving anything there. I'm just waiting in that inner cave as Ma said,' but what am I actually receiving? Nothing. You see, so to the mind, complete waste of time.

You see, the Sufis said you must wait for that dazzling darkness in the heart which is going to transform you from the inside. But to the mind that process is nothing because there may not be anything conceptualizable yet. You see? So it is more like a process of photosynthesis rather than a process of conceptual framework building. With me so far? That we are not necessarily building a set of constructs. We are allowing ourselves to receive in the stillness and the silence of our heart that which the Atma is telling us wordlessly. So that is the crux, the crucial point of spirituality, is to come to that point.

So Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi called it to be in silence. Various sages have used various terms for the same thing. Anandamayi Ma said to dwell in the inner cave. It comes in satsang here to say to remain in the heart temple. Saint Teresa of Avila would have said to remain in the inner mansion, not the outer ones. And the Sufis would have said that this is where we are receiving Marifa. And the Vedantins may say that in Nididhyasana, that is when we are receiving Atma Gyan. What is this transformation? Very good. So the soul or the Antahkarana which has the ability to attach itself to Maya, you see, then starts more and more to move away from Maya and shine in the light of the Atma within and ultimately it loses distinction between the souleness of itself, the Antahkarananess of itself, and the Atma itself, you see. Or only in that which is called the Tanmatra would it remain. So it's 99.99999999% transformed into the Atma itself. The distinction between the separateness of the Antahkarana, of the soul, then dissolves.

So some call it coming to self-realization, some call it God realization, some call it Marifa, some call it a divine marriage, some call it a union, some call it a merging; there are so many different words for the same transformation.

When you say we receive in the cave, in the heart temple we receive, is that the transformation that is taking place?

No, that which we receive transforms us. You see, so the light of photosynthesis then becomes the food for the plant, see, therefore transforming the plant. So the light in the heart received then transforms us from the inside.

So the photosynthesis, the osmosis of being quiet, silent in the temple, in the inner cave, and that which is received is then the instrument for transformation. Do you say that? Would you use the word?

That which is received just transforms us. So it's like water when received then quenches our thirst. So if that is what you mean by instrument, then yes, that would be then the will and grace of God.

Yes. To remain in that receiving posture, we also receive His will and transformation concurrently.

Yes. Yes. Beauty, truth, light, love, transformation, everything that is good is received over there. You see, we spoke about Satyam Shivam Sundaram being the same thing. All that is of value is received from God. Even rest actually is received from there. Only God's light can make us rest.

The further we go from this 'me' cell—

Yeah.

The greater we open ourselves to the photosynthesis, the osmosis, where we receive and transform at the same time.

Yes. Now there's a danger there, isn't it? The danger there is that the 'me' itself can say, 'I want to have this transformation.'

There. You see, we spoke about Satyam Shivam Sundaram being the same thing. All that is of value is received from God. Even rest actually is received from there. Only God's light can make us rest. The further we go from this "me" cell, the greater we open ourselves to the photosynthesis, the osmosis, where we receive and transform at the same time. Yes. Now there's a danger there, isn't it? The danger there is that the "me" itself can say, "I want to have this transformation. I want to transform in this way. I want to become full of this light, enlightened, free." It sounds very good. You see, so the "me" itself latches on to this project. And that "me" latching on to this project will change this trajectory from actual spirituality to spiritual ego. You see? So it'll try to move everything back to the mind-intellect system. It'll try to make a conceptual understanding out of this.

So then the sages have very smartly given us a pathway. They have said the only way you will receive is if you give yourself. You see, so in that explosive notion, we cannot hold on to any selfishness, any meanness in that. So the openness, the receptivity is a giving from our side. So like God gives himself fully to us in our heart, we give ourselves fully to God in our heart. You see, so it is the most divine love story. It is the most divine rendezvous. But if any one of the two—and God will not—but if we hold ourselves back, you see, then it'll not be a surrender. It'll not be a state full of love and light. It will then start to tend towards the spiritual understanding, conceptual understanding, and spiritual ego based on that conceptual understanding.

It's very, very subtle, isn't it, Father?

Yes. Over there, you see, now that to keep ourselves in that God for God's sake and not God so that something will happen for me. That's why this, again, if you look at great sages like Ma Shabri or Kabir Ji or St. Therese of Lisieux, they cleaned up their intentional system to such a place where they said that, "I don't want to receive even light from God, I just want Him to feel rested when I'm offering myself to Him. I want to give Him a place to rest in my heart." You see, it can sound like a very, very absurd thing to say. It can sound like a very strange thing to say: God needing rest in my heart. You see, so Saint Therese put it very, very beautifully, isn't it? There are so many—as a child, because she left the body very, very early, maybe 23 or something, 25—so she said everyone expects Jesus to take the initiative and help me in this and help me in that. You see, I just want Him to rest. I just want Him to rest.

And that is exactly Ma Shabri's intention. I just want Him to come here so He can get some rest. And there is a scene in the Ramayan where Lord Ram actually puts His head in her lap and says that, "I have not felt this love since I slept in the lap of my mother Kaushalya." So all of these are pointers from the sages as to what our attitude should be. So we are not to go in there and say, "I am here to receive the holy light. Yes, bring it on." That is not the project. The project is that—well, it is the project, but the project is not accomplished in that egotistical way. You see, the project is only accomplished in a true offering, in a true love. You see, so if one partner in the relationship is willing to give everything and the other partner is saying, "Yes, let me just receive that everything," then you would not call it a holy relationship, isn't it? You would call it selfish from one side and maybe naive from the other side, isn't it?

So, God is offering Himself fully in our heart. What is our end of the relationship? What is it that we are offering? So, Swami Ramdas Ji kept emphasizing on two things, and although he was one of the most learned scholars I've come across in my life, by the end of his life his pointings were very simple. He said two things: "May I never forget You" and "I belong to You. My heart belongs to You." So Maya, the great forgetting—he makes the prayer that, "May I not forget You so that I don't fall for Maya anymore." Second is that, "May my approach, my inner posture, be of that of offering myself, that I belong to You, Lord, not of claiming anything from You."

So this is the path of Atma Gyan or coming to true knowledge, self-knowledge with a capital K. Unfortunately, many in the path of knowledge, the spiritual path of knowledge, think that it is a very intellectual process. It is actually not; hardly anything to do in the intellect also. Claudia, before you ask your question, I'm just coming strongly to say this. How many of us feel that Jnana Yoga is a highly intellectual process? You feel that? Highly intellectual? Huh? It sounds like it. So what is the highest process or practice of Jnana Yoga? Inquiry or Neti Neti, which fundamentally lead to the same point. But these are the highest practices. Now look at Neti Neti. Okay, you tell a seven-year-old that everything that changes, put it in the basket of unreal. Huh? Tell a seven-year-old, third standard, fourth standard student, maybe younger: everything that is changing, put in a basket called unreal. Yeah. So do you feel he'll be able to do it? Is the world changing? Unreal. Is the body changing? Unreal. Are your thoughts changing? Unreal. Are your emotions changing? Unreal. Put in the basket of unreal and wait over there. That is Neti Neti. Anything more? Anything I'm missing out? No, that is Neti Neti. So what is so highly intellectual in it? Nothing so highly intellectual.

Then Bhagavan's instructions on doing the self-inquiry. Thin booklet. Basically, what is the essence of it? Ask yourself sincerely: Who am I? Ask yourself sincerely: Who am I? If a thought comes with the answer, then ask yourself sincerely: Who witnesses this thought? Yeah. If the answer comes "I," ask yourself: Who is this I? That's the extent of it. You see? So zero in on who this "I" is by using the witnessing property of the capital I. What is so highly intellectual in that? So it's a fallacy that it's a highly intellectual process. Jnana Yoga is not a process of intellect. It is a process of letting go of our mind-intellect, allowing the Atma Gyan to reveal itself in that same holy place, in that same inner cave, in that same holiness.

You see, so the process of keeping yourself empty to receive that is spirituality. No matter if you're in Zen and the master has told you to remain empty or has given you a koan which your intellect can't solve but brings you beyond the intellect to that same empty place. You see, so the point of all spirituality is to come to that empty, keep that lane empty of the "me" because it is narrow. So what is the full example? If there is "me," then there cannot be God in the lane, and if there is God, then there cannot be a "me." So all spiritual processes, all spiritual practices basically bring us to that point. And nothing is exceptionally intellectual or mental in the process of spirituality. At best, some very simple pointers are provided which our pride can take on and say, "I do self-inquiry." You see? Like, "What do you do? Oh, you do chanting God's name? Oh, I do Neti Neti only, I do." And I'm not saying it cannot be the other way. It can be the other way also. But many times you see that pride coming because it seems like a very highly intellectual process. But it's not. It's a seven-year-old's intellect process. Maybe lesser.

Now, it may be that our mind is so complicated that we need to hear so many things to come to that simplicity. So then that is just an undoing of our mental conditioning so that we can come to that innocence and simplicity. It doesn't mean that the outcome of Jnana Yoga is highly intellectual. It is in fact to let go of our intellect in a very, very, very deep way.

I didn't get the first sentence. Antahkarana and Maya—what did you say? Is there a relationship or...

Yeah. So Antahkarana is this. Now it can be filled with this coconut water, or it can be filled with some whiskey, or it can be filled with just water. You see, now this is the container. Antahkarana is designed as the container which can fill itself with Maya through belief, through just wanting, grasping, all of these things, or can fill itself up with God's love and light, and in a way then dissolving this seeming boundary of the container till it's left in the very minutest way.

So there are imprints in the soul that can be... and this we have to be...

It's just a nice word. Atma or soul is just a nice word because we don't want to say all our faculties—this, this, this—every time. It's like "body" is a nice word. There is no such thing like a body, you see, but we don't want to say, "Oh, toenail, toes, ankle, knee, calves." We aggregate it conceptually and say, "Okay, yes, let's use the term body." You see, then we use the term "world" because we don't want to say this person, then this person, then this carpet. You know, each can be broken up into so many components, so we aggregate and we say, "Let's say everything that is appearing phenomenally, let's put that in the basket of world."

So Antahkarana in itself is neutral and not going searching for anything?

No, it's that our faculty—our mind, our emotional layer, our intellect—all of these can be attuned towards feeding itself on Maya, Maya, Maya. You see, so we call that the Antahkarana filling itself up with Maya. Or it can leave itself empty of all of that, open and empty, allowing God's light to shine through in all the layers of your existence.

So Antahkarana can also be attracted by Maya. Yes. Is this what...?

In fact, Maya is designed to attract the Antahkarana.

That's why we fall. So in spite of knowing all of this, and I have known all of this for quite some time, and yet every day I fall for Maya. Isn't it?

Yes.

But I felt somehow the Antahkarana would be not active in this process looking for it, that it is a recipient. It's not the glass going...

Maybe your definition of Antahkarana is different from mine. Yes. Yeah. Or soul or... for me, it's a convenient word to use to say all of our insides. Our insides can be full of all of these worldly things, or it can be tuned towards God.

I was seeing the glass somehow as a metaphor, and it's not the glass calling for water or something. It is filled by...

Let's look at it in this way. What in you can be attracted to Maya or can be left empty? Your mind can offer, your intellect can judge and say yes, yes, yes or no to it, your emotions can participate with what is appearing and, you know, all of these things. So there's so much on our insides which can be attracted to or participate in this play of Maya, isn't it? So use whatever term you want for that.

But the feeling is my soul only wants to get filled with the Holy Spirit.

That's very good. So then fill it up only with that.

Yes. So yes, if the soul is not calling for...

Okay, so if it wants to only fill itself up with spirit, let's say, then what has it been waiting for all this time?

Because somehow I don't know in which form...

And what is filling it at the moment? If it only wants to fill itself up with the light of spirit or the love of spirit or spirit itself, then what is it currently containing? A mixture? It's still...

Exactly. But this is mind somehow, or Claudia filling in some stuff.

We can call it whatever we want. Some stuff that doesn't belong there. You see, now in your construct, you're saying that it is the mind that forces it to fill itself with this, you see. And in my construct, it is when the Antahkarana follows my will or my way or my this thing. Hardly matters. It's all right. The main point is to be empty, you know. That's the main point. You see, so what I'm saying is that don't dwell too much on the mechanics of it. Those are just instructive at a very broad level. Focus on the emptiness which can lead to God's light. And what is the spiritual path, spiritual tool, or spiritual practice which you're using to remain empty so that you can be filled with God's light?

When the Antahkarana follows my will or my way or this thing, it hardly matters. It's all right. The main point is to be empty, you know. That's the main point. You see, so what I'm saying is that don't dwell too much on the mechanics of it. Those are just instructive at a very broad level. Focus on the emptiness which can lead to God's light. And what is the spiritual path, spiritual tool, or spiritual practice which you're using to remain empty so that you can be filled with God's life? The practice is important because sometimes it feels like we are in a wrestling match with Maya, and if you haven't practiced the wrestling match, then we'll just fall for it.

Yes. It's like a restless cleaning of the temple.

Yeah, that's another way to put it. Exactly. Okay, we'll come to JK after. Just put it back on.

Um, so Father, you mentioned about spiritual ego and it just feels like the heart looks like it needs permission from the mind to really dwell in love. It needs to have it make sense. For example, your love for a daughter—for your own child, right? People say that is closer to true love, and logically also it actually may not be true love because what you are experiencing is your own joy. And similarly, in the process of divine love, I feel that the motivation is still about us, right? Because we want to feel joy and we are running away from all the not-good feelings that we have. So ultimately, the focus is again on us, right? How do we turn the focus not on us? It doesn't feel like there is a logical answer to that. And then how do we experience it?

Yeah, when you try it, you notice that the fallacy that the spiritual path is full of joy is the first to leave. Huh? And if it's not yet tasted, it will be tasted in the sense that God doesn't leave us with this fallacy. You see, so there are periods of aridity. There are periods of frustration. There are periods where it feels like no progress is happening for years. So nobody really—at the end somebody may say that, okay, it was very joyful, but talk to fellow journeyers and if they're being truthful in their reports, they will say there is joy but there's frustration, there is just dryness, all of these things. You see, so that motivation, if it is purely joy-driven, then that falls away fairly quickly. So then something else must be replacing it, isn't it?

But when I say motivation, I meant there is hope and then you see, okay fine, all the hard work there becomes a project where in trying very hard to reach there, you know, there is a pain in the process. That is how the mind sort of works.

Yeah. I don't feel like anyone who's truly at this is left with the conclusion that ultimately I just want that bliss. You see, let's not even call it joy. Bliss is a bigger word—that ultimately I will remain in that state of bliss forever. All these initial adventures we all have when we start off. You see, the more time we spend in God's presence, we realize that it's no longer about bliss or experience chasing or coming to some state like that. You see, it may, and if it provides the initial momentum to get on the path, then may it be so. There are 99,000 other things which provide us momentum to go outwards. So if this provides somebody the initial momentum to turn inwards, it's all right, you see.

And I don't feel like the heart gets so bullied by the mind. It is that ourselves, in our will, we want my way, and we stop listening to the heart, you see, in that process. So when we stop listening to the heart, then the mind seems to be the only refuge. But the heart itself, as we are calling it, is the dwelling place of the Atma. You see, where the Atma speaks, where the Atma shares, maybe in words which are wordless, but that Atma can never be bullied. Many times what we call the heart is a deeper, maybe an emotional center or some other center, which then becomes a battle between our feeling layer and our intellect layer. And if our rationality is winning over our feeling layer, nothing so bad is happening in that because our emotional layer is completely buzz at times. But the heart is that inner cave which Anandamayi Ma spoke about, where He Himself dwells. St. Teresa of Avila said that in that heart is where He delights to stay. So where He delights to stay, He stays in the form of the spirit, the Atma within. And this Atma is God. It cannot be bullied by anything in the world. Everything is its creation, shining in its light.

Yeah. But the desire for the person to get enlightened, this can keep us in ego like forever, lifetimes or you know...

Forever? No. God is more merciful. He sends us enough nudges to start with, then slaps, you see, enough to shake out of our egoic system. So to hold on to that pride forever across millions of lifetimes? No. What can it be? Many, thousands, millions maybe. Yes.

The desire for enlightenment, this can keep us like...

Yes. You see, but truly if we are seeking the basis of enlightenment, which is truth, love, beauty, God's Darshan, you see, then these things don't last for too long. We just want the satisfaction for the longing of the holy meeting in our heart. You see, we just want that thirst to be quenched. You see, that is very different from the conceptual desire of wanting freedom or enlightenment. You feel it?

I feel like it's going on and I don't mind it at all. But I feel some kind of like conscious when I'm in Satsang. I don't want to disturb others and that creates that—there's duality being created by this kind of fear.

Then don't worry about it. We've had—Satsang would not be Satsang if this was not happening. For the first seven, eight years of Satsang, then I don't know, somehow the texture changed and stopped. You know, we had people screaming, shouting, dancing, doing all kinds of...

Because it's so strong, I'm not like even trying or...

Yeah, be in the space where it is appearing. And recognize that in that space anything may appear. But that space is not shaken by what is appearing. You see, so you are that space in which that space itself takes birth. You see, so let the body have whatever reactions it wants.

Yeah. Father, I just want to say that I keep forgetting. I don't want to spend time controlling the body. I don't want to put my attention there. I want to allow it also, Father. I feel I want to get very conscious, or when it's too much, I feel some kind of fear also. I don't know what way I'm going to react and then I'm busy trying to like contain it and I leave the Japa and then, yeah, and that creates like—I want to be able to just be with the Japa and allow whatever happens. I feel some kind of fear, Father.

So this one, keep it aside. Okay? The one that wants to allow or the one that doesn't want to allow. Keep both of them aside. You see, because these are just positions that the mind can offer. You meet it from the true place.

I feel some image kind of thing gets triggered, like what is going to happen if I just let it all go? I might go berserk. I feel scared.

Yes. But it's trapping you between these two positions. I'm saying just leave both of them. Wait, go slow. Tell me you want to.

So one position is that be concerned about the image. What will everyone think? And you know, all of this thing. The other position is just let it all go. Don't bother with what is happening. Both of these you leave.

Okay. And that seems very scary and vulnerable sometimes because you don't know how to meet this that is appearing. So I'm saying meet it as the space in which it is appearing. Sorry.

It's okay. And you don't have to worry about what others are thinking because there are only two positions that they can take. The first is, you know, 'Why doesn't this ever happen to me? Something is happening to her. Nothing ever happens to me.' That is the first one. And the second one is, 'Look at her doing all this drama to get attention and all this stuff. Why can't she do without it?' That is the second. So both of them are very stale and stupid positions. Don't bother about either.

Yeah. I want to ask you again, what am I supposed to do?

Don't hold on to any posture as to how you're meant to meet this. And if you have to meet it in a certain way, meet it as the space which remains unaffected by whatever movement is happening.

So Father, like when such overwhelming energy is happening and...

Overwhelming for whom?

Okay. And what I mean is such strong sensations and mixed with the mind.

Yes. But is the space in which they are appearing finding it wrong?

Give me one minute, Father. I want to see it. You know, I can see in bits that it's not, and then because it's such strong sensation, all my attention goes there.

Attention is on it. Now, is there nothing but that sensation in your experience right now?

Of course there is.

There is. Now, between the sensations of this voice and what you are experiencing within the body, is there some space? Between the sensation which you're calling this voice, Ananta's voice, and the sensation which is happening within your body, is there some space between them?

Yes. What is that question? Are they both mixed up? Are they both one in your experience?

Are they both one? Because you know, it's very hard to hear right now because it's so strong. What do I do? What I'm saying is that you are able to distinguish between the quality of these two sensations, isn't it? The perception of voice? Sorry, don't laugh. I'm trying to process what Father says. Say slowly again.

Yes. You hear this voice? Ananta's voice. You experience a sensation. That's a sensation and that's hearing. So there is distance between them. They're not the same. Now, that space in which both of these are appearing, is that affected by it?

Oh God. Now where are both appearing? This voice is appearing somewhere and the sensation is appearing somewhere. Is it one space or two? My mind's just blocking this part. I'm trying to see. I'll open my eyes and see.

Yeah. So, I'm saying that you're hearing this. You see, you're also experiencing the sensation. So, now both of these experiences are in one space. In one space. I can see that one space. Is it affected by either of these sensations?

No, not at all. It's not. Yeah.

What is your relationship with that space?

My relationship? It's my space.

Yes. So you can say that I am that space of being, that consciousness within which everything appears. Or you may say that you are that space which is untouched even with this space, and that space is appearing within you. Forget it. Or you may say that you are just witnessing that, and the witness is unaffected by it.

Yeah, that I could grasp a little bit.

So either you are that space or you are the witness of the space. In either situation, you are not affected by it. You see that that which is affected by it is the body and the energy, and the mind makes all these interpretations about what is happening. Now you remain in that seeing that you are that space, that being, or you are the witness of even that.

Okay, that really helps, Father. Thank you so much.

So don't identify with any posture-making, because that will make you into the belief that you are the body-mind who is caught up in this set of sensations. You are not.

I can watch this body do whatever. And I don't have to control it. Right. Yes. And I don't have to worry if I disturb someone.

Exactly. I should have said it in those simple terms. Exactly. No, no.

You are the witness of even that.

Okay, that really helps, Father. Thank you so much.

So don't identify with any posture making because that will make you into the belief that you are the body-mind who is caught up in this set of sensations. You are not.

I can watch this body do whatever.

Yes.

And I don't have to control it. Right?

Yes.

And I don't have to worry if I disturb someone.

Exactly. I should have said it in those simple terms. Exactly. No, no. Exactly. You put it very well. Those three things.

No, no. It took all that to come here. Yeah. Okay. Actually helps. Thank you. I'm sorry everyone if I'm very loud. I can't contain it.

I told you, everybody's mind can offer two positions.

Yeah, I'm aware of that.

But either of those are just positions.

Yeah. But it's, you know what, I feel like they're hearing intently and I'm going 'ah' and I'm disturbing them. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Father.

Nothing, nobody ever has an experience in their life unless it is the will of God. And every experience that comes as the will of God is only for our growth. You see, so this applies to you and it applies to all of us in Satsang. You see, and you're spreading the contagion also.

Father, sorry, I thought your mic was on inadvertently. One minute. Father, by what you just shared, that means any pain in the body, any affliction, we can just be in that space of awareness and witness. Because sometimes the physicality of the pain can be so intense, as you have experienced, Father. So for any sensation, for any pain, for any discomfort, that position is so beautiful. That real position of being spacious, Father, is that how we should approach that?

Yes, we have to. Like our heart tells us if we are guiding someone, then our heart tells us what they are ready to hear. Because if you talk about this to most of the world, they may not be ready to hear it in this way at this point because it'll seem too far-fetched and theoretical, you see. So we must, if we're applying it to ourselves and we've been in Satsang, of course. If we are talking about how to guide others, then we must allow our higher heart to guide because someone may be able to receive it only at a very personal level of guidance, so to say. That we must accept and, you know, forgive and all of those things may be better instructions at that level. So we must follow our heart in terms of what our heart is telling us for that. When it comes to application in our lives, and if we've been in Satsang for some time, yes, this is a very high way of looking at the sensations in this way. It can help us to really focus on the reality of who we are by recognizing that that which witnesses this all, this entire of being, is untouched by anything that appears and disappears within being. You want to say something? Let me see.

But I think that that is the highest, Father, because I work a lot with physical pain and discomfort. I somehow feel, Father, and I would want your guidance, because I feel that if I'm working with somebody who has got cancer and who's got pain, then it is being on the path, it is kind of a duty to guide them into this space, into that spaciousness and into the no-mind space. And funnily, Father, for even the most cerebral people, they receive it, even if momentarily, they do receive it, Father. And yes, all protocols and all pain management, everything is on one side, but is it all right, Father? Because sometimes the mind for me says, 'Are they ready for it?' and then my heart will say, 'Who are you to decide whether they are ready for it?' because in their heart they are also the same soul and the same gods. So Father, is that the right approach? Because not that I have reached that, because when sometimes something is with the body that really grips me and I am staying in the spaciousness. So I feel I'm a student as well as a facilitator in this space.

Father, you can, what I would do is if it is not completely clear, if the words are not bursting out of our heart like they do mostly in Satsang, then the approach usually I would take is to knock gently and see if there's some sense of openness to receiving what is being shared. So once we knock gently, then we get a response and we can get a sense of where they are in their receptivity of this.

Okay, Father, I'll do that. Yeah.

Okay. Happy to talk more about this if you like.

Thank you, Father. That really helps. Thank you so much. It's a question then. 'Then' means a few minutes ago.

Sometimes we can replace between time and space. Huh? So it was a question then. Huh? He's looking at me. Sorry if I'm doing this to as I'm getting older. No, I'm getting sea also. That's why I'm saying won't it be fun to replace time and space so we can say it was a question then? That's what I felt she did. I pointed to space. She said the question then, like a point in space was like a point in time was not important at all. So it's like the left is gone now. The right is coming. No. Okay. I better stop. It's fun.

Yes. I wanted to ask about the center is the gift. What is it? The left is dead, the right is just fiction, and the center is the gift. Right. Yeah. And that happened then. I was saying that even scientists will say, you know, it's like a space-time continuum. What is the question?

No, no, sorry. I wanted at that point in time, he was speaking about faith and when I was looking at it, I feel like for me I get stuck at like it's intertwined with the presence of God.

Yes. Fully. It's like the gift of the presence of God. It's like the insight that we receive in the presence of God. Now that presence, it could be received at the doorway of God or it could be received in the palpable Atma Darshan, that doesn't matter. Because like I said, the door from the inside is always open. It's the palpability to keep us humble and all of those things which only He knows, that the palpability of Atma Darshan may not be that apparent, but it doesn't reduce the flow of insight and knowledge from there. Yes. Now the more we remain in faith, the more it deepens, you see. Because what happens is that, what's a good way to put this? So if you get used to flying, then that seems like normal. You see, if you get used to just crawling, then that seems like normal. You see, now if we are used to crawling and we've flown for a few moments, then when that invitation to crawl comes, then we forget to fly very fast. But if you're used to flying and the invitation to crawl comes, then we don't crawl that easily. You see, it has to be really strong to pull us in. So if you've lived in the heart more and more, then when the mind tempts us with either trouble or invitation, then we don't fall for it that easily. But otherwise our faith is easily shaken if we don't live in that more and more. But as we live in that more and more, then we see no reason to go back to crawling. So some say, it's not coming to me now, that we must guard this, guard our heart with all our mind. You see, the orthodox tradition. So we must guard the sanctity of the holy temple with everything, and to guard it is to, like Jesus said, to watch and pray. So to be vigilant to that and not fall for it. Exactly. And it becomes a way of life also. So as we guard our heart, we don't contaminate it with egotistical things, then it becomes a more natural way of life. Then when egoic things are bought into, then there's a taste of yuckiness, like something like 'I don't want to live there, I don't want to go there,' you see. And initially, if you're used to living egoically, then the call from the heart seems like far-fetched, let's ignore it. It can wait. There are more urgent things.

Okay. Father, it's been 3 years, Father. I'm very happy to see you back. 3 years. So, I just want to make my observations. You became a bit physically weak, Father, but love and kindness is radiating vibrantly. So, so strong. I feel in your presence. I don't have questions for this but just, I'm very happy to hear whatever you want to share. Just made some emotional ups and downs and the spiritual path what I carried, and you know very well initially I started with Advaita and then at the confluence of this Jnana and Bhakti wrestling so much and coming to some clarity. There has to be a confluence at some point of time, otherwise the spiritual ego becomes very strong and we'll just somewhere we will fade away. So I just made some stanzas. I think I'll just read out. Dear Father, days and years are passing by, sometimes passing and sometimes I feel tired of counting days. When that beautiful and most amazing moment comes when I leave all my lifetime burdens and merge with infinity. Dear Father, no more fun for the soul in mundane life. But still divine rule is to continue to play the game. Sometimes I need to act as if I am very passionate about roles in material life. But at the end of the day, a deep realization that no joy is in any of these achievements and the heart remains in deep longing for divine love. Another side of the heart says, 'Oh Lord, what a beautiful and amazing creativity making this play. How many universes have you created for divine play? Absolutely amazing creativity in each part of creation.' Please allow me to fully understand your divine play. One moment the feeling comes, 'no meaning to material life,' and another moment feels it's God's Leela. So there must be a purpose for every event of the life. My Lord, please save me from ego. Immerse me at least once thoroughly into your love of infinity and take me and make me to understand all your divine visions with lots of hope and trust. I will live life waiting for you to open my heart and hug me so tight. I could see nothing except infinity of your life, your love. Bless me, Father. Please bless me.

I feel the sincerity and I join you in this prayer. May our Father God, Bhagwan, may He bless us in this way. We surrender to His infinite mercy, His infinite love. May this humble, sincere prayer by this child of God be heard and let His will be done. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Have you returned now to Bangalore or you still there?

Yes. Oh, good. One year back, very far away from this center. Oh, I can't.

We claim to offer a sense of what the spiritual project is. But at least if all of you have a sense of what it is not, it may save you a lot of time. It may save you a lot of energy to focus on the reality of the spiritual path. What is it not? At what layer of knowledge is it not? Neither percepts can contain it nor concepts can contain it. They may at best point to it. It has to be found in a deeper place.

Yeah, the deeper place. How to find?

By letting go of the shallow ones. By surrendering that we hold on to that too tightly, then we don't have room for that deeper insight. In fact, I hope you won't mind me saying, but with Ravi for example, he's written research papers on Advaita Vedanta, he's written very highly academic and all of that. But in the last few years he went through this sort of upheaval which got him to what he's calling the confluence of Jnana and Bhakti, where he's realizing that if we just collect a lot of concepts alone but don't fall in love with God in our heart, then that can just lead to a lot of spiritual pride also, you see. So the true knowledge leads us to a deeper love and a deep love leads us to true knowledge. So if we stay on the path of true knowledge which is heart knowledge, intuitive knowledge, and we always stay on the path of a deep love and devotion, both will arise within us. But if we start to value our intellectual understanding alone, then we get into pride, something like this.

Absolutely. I feel very happy when I understand about...

Let's have a question before we close.

Spiritual pride also, you see, so the true knowledge leads us to a deeper love and a deep love leads us to true knowledge. So if we stay on the path of true knowledge, which is heart knowledge, intuitive knowledge, and we always stay on the path of a deep love and devotion, both will arise within us. But if we start to value our intellectual understanding alone, then we get into pride, something like this.

Absolutely. I feel very happy when I understand about... Let's have a question before we close. Father, when I came today in satsang, there felt an immense peace and, you know, that something tasted different. Like, I don't know how to say it, like if in entire satsang it feels that, if I dare to say, the presence—the presence of God. And so is it wrong, or I don't know, is it wrong to expect at home when I'm praying to expect the same, or even to let that go? Because, you know, I have this habit of taking pressure and then just thinking about it. I don't want to do that, but today I was trying, constantly trying to constantly take the name of Krishna and, of course, because of work, this, that, and you know, I couldn't say with much power. I was trying to remember in between, but that's all, Father.

I had a day like that I feel also, so don't beat yourself up over it. But in terms of feeling the presence when you come to satsang or meeting the presence at a deep place when you come to satsang, should I expect the same thing when I go back home? Now, what happened in the cricket match, can we expect it to happen in the football match? Yeah. So the batsman hit a six, then we don't expect the forward to hit a six also. So what I mean by that is that where you are meeting God's presence is not the same place where you can expect. There are two different layers. You're meeting the presence in your heart, but your layer of expectation is in the mind.

So that has nothing to do with this. You see, now what happens as you learn to taste the presence more and more, there's a heart version of that which we may all expect, which is called longing, which is called a vyakulta, you see, a param vyakulta, which is a deep longing for God's presence, for His love, for His light. And that is very holy in the heart because some have called it even higher than the presence itself. You see? So, allow that to emerge organically, but don't give anything to the mind because the mind will only make mud out of it. You know what's going to happen. You see, the minute you start expecting, it will say, 'See, didn't happen. Hey, you lost it.' All of this, it'll just set you up for failure. And even if it doesn't set you up for failure and you feel something, it'll set you up for pride: 'See, I can meet it at home also, I don't need to go to satsang.'

So that is... if you give it to the wrong place, which is the space of mental expectation, then it'll make it convoluted. So allow yourself to meet it now. Now your heart is falling in love, and that love and longing then become indistinguishable, you see. So allow it to grow there only. So don't confuse the playgrounds, because the mind will say, 'But will this happen at home?' You see? So in a way, it can also be this kind of question where you're finding something beautiful happening in satsang and your mind may come and say, 'Yeah, this is fine, but you'll lose it soon because you'll be back home.' You see, so many times in the guise of a question like that, it's a fear that 'I'm going to lose it soon. I don't want to lose it.'

Yes. Yes, Father. Yes. Exactly.

So, just keep that one uninvited to the party. And you just relax. Relax. Exactly.

Thank you, Father. Thank you. Yes. And also, so yeah, so today Ma had posted again that satsang about coming towards the gate of the heart temple.

It's a very good one. Yes.

Yeah. And I feel it like if I ask that question and I just be like empty and wait for it, like not analyze, I don't know how to say it. My more question is, while praying, how do I do it? Like when I hear it, when I ask it, it happens, but then when I pray, then again it becomes Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Krishna. Then I ask, 'Okay, where do I love my Krishna?'

So the experiment you have to do is just be as mental about it as possible and see when it forces you to drop into the heart.

So I'll keep saying it in my mind. Okay.

Then that itself will also take you to the heart. Otherwise, the mind will bully you: 'No, that you're only doing it mentally.' Then you will neither do it mentally nor will you do it in the heart. You see, so if it is happening mentally, yes, good. Say, 'Krishna, you only take me to the heart.' Do it. Yeah. So, remember that the sages have called it a fire. Yeah. The fire will burn whether you do it mechanically, whether you do it this way. Of course, the intensity of the fire is higher if it is happening in the heart. In fact, a japa in the heart where you're just enjoying hearing the chant in your heart and it's the Atma itself which is praying. You see, but if I say that and all of you say, 'No, I will only pray like that,' you see, 'So I will not do Krishna Krishna, I will not do Ram Ram unless that is happening,' then the mind has won, you see.

So allow God's name to take you deeper in the heart. And all you have to do is that before you end your prayer—if there is an end, then you have to go to some other—then make sure that you're sitting in openness, receptivity, empty in the heart for as much time as you can. That makes it simple.

Thank you so much, Father. I love you.

Love you too. Bless you. Maya is a mahagi, you see, the biggest con artist. It'll take the teacher's words also and use them in a way that then it says, 'Oh no, then this is no point.' You see, there is no safe mind except a mind which is immersed in God's name. I just came to realize that it's full of so much trouble. It's full of so much egotism, me-me grasping, then fear, despair, all kinds of things. And the only way we can have a safe mind is if it is drowning in God's name.

Drowning in God's name... like explain that is the correct... because otherwise it's so confusing. No?

The sages tell us don't want anything. You see, and then they say the longing for God is the highest. So then what is the connection between that? So wanting is mentally grasping, wanting, grabbing. You see, longing is just that deep, deep love for God is felt in that. Otherwise, wanting and love don't go together, because that Gollum comes up, 'My precious,' then there's no love left in that. You've seen this in Lord of the Rings. So when we get into that grasping mode or wanting our way mode or 'I want to be right' mode, then there's no love in there. But this longing that we feel for God, it's so, so drenched in God's love. And Radha-Krishna, of course, are the best embodiment of that longing for God. See their Leela, their play is a beautiful embodiment of how that longing can be deeper than even a tasted love.

Yes. In a very high way. You have the... I can't tell you whether she's saying yes or no. You want the money. Father is eating or cooking or... is it on?

Yes. Yes. Closer then. Hello. Check. Check. Hello. Yeah.

So, let's say I'm doing the ads prayer. I'm like step by step, like I'm there. Yeah, and there and not there, you know, because the gate that I'm pointing to, you are there in a very, very transparent way, almost non-existent way. If there is too much of you there, then you're not there.

Yes. Yes. I mean, yes, I get it. Yes. When we are empty of ourselves, then we are at the gate. Yes.

So, Father, I'm doing... yes.

So what will happen is that if there is unlimited time, you can wait for that to happen organically where the name is also left, or our heart itself takes on the chanting of the name, you see, and we just witness it. Now that Ram Ram is continuing, but we are not doing it. So remember that—sorry if you break it down for everyone a bit—so initially it can be like mental effort. Ram Ram can seem mechanical. Then after some time, most of you have started to notice that it becomes just chanting in the mind on its own and you're just witnessing it. Then you notice that somehow when you start praying, you're not praying at the same layer now; you're praying in the heart, but you seem like you're praying. Yeah. Then after a while, it may be that you are just witnessing that happening in your heart itself.

So there is japa in the head and the japa in the heart. So it may lead you... so your prayer in the heart may lead you to a complete stillness, or it may lead you to a witnessing, a perception of that prayer happening by the spirit itself, by the Atma itself. So either of those are very beautiful. So that is the beauty of the eating process, of the depth of the contemplation process. Now if there is a limited time and you say that you only have half an hour and you prayed for say 20 minutes or 15 minutes depending on how it goes for you, you can just leave yourself in silence for a few minutes and allow your heart to speak. To speak doesn't mean audibly speak. Just allow yourself to be in the receptivity of that photosynthesis that we spoke about without imagining any light, without imagining anything. You see, just allow the heart to do its work on you.

St. Teresa said, 'When I leave myself to Him, then He does all the work in my heart.' This is the work. So we leave ourselves to Him. We think open to receiving Him doing the work in our heart. What a beautiful thing. Let's pause on this for a moment because things like this can be said in satsang and we can be like, 'Okay, now next.' He does the work in my heart. When I heard this first, I got off my bed and I started dancing. This is just so beautiful. And of course, intuitively you have a sense of these things, but to have it come in such clarity from the words of a sage: 'Then I just leave myself to Him, then He does all the work in my heart.' He does it. The Lord of the universe does the work in my heart. What better news can we get? You see, what better news can we get?

So that is where we started satsang today, with the process of that inner transformation where He does the work in transforming us, but we have to leave ourselves empty for Him. So just to come to that still place even for a moment, then that just grows within us. You see, and in that revelation of God's presence, if it is His grace, He also gives us the revelation of the very source of the Atma itself, the very source of even the Saguna Brahman itself. The Nirvana reality of God, the Nirguna reality of Brahman, is apparent only through the eyes of the Atma itself, and therefore that part of the process we can call a full process of full grace. You see, every process is a process of full grace, but there is some way we can fake, you see, the doership, and we must fake the doership so that we may say that it is a collaborative tag-team process between me and God. I turn inwards, He blesses me.

Then when we learn to stay over there, then we fall into a completely supernatural process. You see, not in some woo-woo way. Supernatural means beyond this spacetime where God Himself, who is beyond spacetime, then is working on my heart. So therefore my heart also is beyond spacetime. You see, it is not in this universe. It is not an object. So at the very center of our soul, at the very core of our antahkarana, beyond all universes where He lives, and from there as He is doing the work—like if I was to visualize it, I would visualize it as the Lord of the universe sitting there and blessing us from the core of our heart. You see, just sitting and blessing us from there where all true knowledge is revealed, where all true beauty is revealed, where all true love is revealed. You see? So don't make this into—I plead with you—don't make this into some pseudo-mechanical process. Not that you're doing it. I'm saying as a warning for the future, know that what is being spoken about is so far out from this universe. You see, just the beauty of it is astounding. Just the beauty of hearing about it is astounding.

Just sitting and blessing us from there where all true knowledge is revealed, where all true beauty is revealed, where all true love is revealed. You see? So don't make this into—I plead with you—don't make this into some pseudo-mechanical process. Not that you're doing it; I'm saying as a warning for the future, know that what is being spoken about is so far out from this universe. You see, just the beauty of it is astounding. Just the beauty of hearing about it is astounding. Myself hearing this mouth speak the heart's words, I'm getting astounded by its beauty.

Pseudo-mechanical? Is this like, you know, so I've said photosynthesis, so we've made God into one force field and you see that's why I know we've been talking about—so I've stopped using consciousness, awareness as words so much because in that we can just imagine that like magnetism, if you put another magnet close to it, then it attracts. So we make it into these kind of—what is the better word to use than pseudo-mechanical? It just came like that to say.

Scientific?

Pseudo-scientific or some, yeah.

It's not of this world is what I'm trying to say, you see? And it's a process of grace. Like there is a will; it is God's will. It is not that, oh, magnet, magnet, so it has to, you see? It is God's will, it is His mercy, it is His love, it is His kindness which cannot be forced. You see, so how much wages to pay to who is up to Him. The one who worked for one hour got the same wages and the one who worked for the whole day got the same wages in that biblical story. It can seem so unfair, but basically pointing to the fact that He knows best. He knows. Are we looking at our spiritual lives in this way, through this lens? That is the point of what I'm saying.

Are we looking at it like, oh, heart, so it must be like the physical heart? So God is sitting in some molecule over there, or you know, and you spend some time with that molecule and this body is transformed? No, it is a process which is happening outside this universe, outside time and space. It's beyond what our mind can grasp, and yet it is such a great gift. You see, so we have to break out of the clutches of this idea that I just do the Neti Neti Neti and mechanically I have to become enlightened or something like that, or I just do the self-inquiry and mechanically I am entitled to something like this freedom or enlightenment. It's not like that. It is a graceful, it is a merciful, it is a faithful process. It's a humble process. Let's go to Shhat. Are you able to? No?

There is nothing to ask. I just want to report about some being, something like a raw identity that comes and goes.

It's all good. Very good. Very good. Very good, my dear. All my love, all my blessings. Very good. We must never fall into despair, especially when we see our failings. You see, when we see our failings, we can bring them to God. We can offer them to God. But to fall into despair means we've lost faith in His love and mercy for us. So we are never to despair. Bless. Bless. Okay, let's go to Radheshyam Ji. Frozen? It's frozen. Okay, it's visible now. Very good. What a beauty it is that God has graced us with His name. And when we call Ram, where is that call heard? Where is it heard? That same place which is out of this immense seeming realm, but actually nothing for the Lord.