Endeavor to Be Empty All of the Time or Endeavor to Pray All of the Time - 8th May 2024

As if you were to truly turn inward, which means beyond all perception, you are to find something uniquely surprising, uniquely absurd even. Because in the construct of the world, what are you supposed to find when you look inside? Nothing. When you go beyond all phenomena, it is meant to be nothing. But actually, you find that which is beyond everything, beyond thing and nothing. That no-thing which is beyond everything—isn't that magnificent? Imagine how much we chase in the world, but when we turn inward, we find that which the world can never offer.

So if we take that leap of faith—because this leap of faith seems risky—to leave attachments to the objective world and to surrender, leave ourselves, leave the 'me' out of our focus, out of our centrality. Don't make it the locus of our centrality. Forget about the central character in your story, then the story will collapse. So leave that and leave it completely empty for God, or make God the central character of your story. And if your life becomes the temple of God's light, then without even trying, you spread that. Then God's family can grow. The discipleship of the Atma, the discipleship of the Holy Spirit can grow.

And when you devote your life to the 'me', the 'me' is at the center, then again, whether you like it or not, you spread that. Then Maya's family can grow, the ego's family can grow. So this turning inward and returning to your true home is the process of spiritual transformation, going from the way of the head to the way of the heart. Now for most of us, when we hear this, and if you're in satsang, then it seems like this is what we want. This is what we truly want. This is how we want to live. Is it making a lot of noise?

So most of us hear this and say, 'Yes, this is how we want to live.' And it should be; it sounds pretty simple actually, straightforward. But most of us find out that in actuality it is quite difficult because of the nature of this Leela, of the nature of this play that unfolds around us, which by its very nature is very compelling. So to counteract this compelling nature of Maya, all the spiritual practices, all the spiritual advice has been given by the sages who have been able to make that transformation in their life.

So it's a great blessing that within the outer appearance of Maya itself, there is a bypass, there is an ability to go beyond it. Otherwise, most of us would be lost. So when you start following the advice of one who has undertaken the same path that you are endeavoring to walk, it makes things much simpler, much easier. And how to find? If our intention is truly to come to God and let go of the selfishness of the 'me', then God will send the right one to you for that moment to guide you to the next step.

But remember that even in this process, Maya can play. The teacher may forget that it was about expanding the family of God. And if the teacher forgets, then of course, if the disciple is true in their heart and they truly continue to want God, then God will take care of them. But it's very possible to make it again about things of the world, things of 'me'. And because it is quote-unquote 'spiritual', then it seems like we are on the right path. That is why we have to constantly be careful of, vigilant about Maya, vigilant about our lack of faith, vigilant about our propensity for pride.

So once we come to a teacher, then they'll offer some advice in terms of what can be said, what can be followed for us to deepen in the journey from head to heart. How do we awaken to God's presence within ourselves and ultimately, by His grace, awaken to the reality of our own self? Who am I and what is the purpose of my existence? So both cannot really be put in words. So we gather in satsang, then we gather to talk about this. This is the project. And in the process, the project itself may become cloudy in our minds if you go to the minds, or it may seem like there are some obstacles along the path.

So in service to God, in service to the holy light within ourselves, we gather to make ourselves free from those obstacles, from those chains of the world, and come and live in the true home, the true place in our heart. Now what is the mind's number one objection? What is the mind's number one objection? 'All this is fine, but what about me? I actually came because I had some other problem.' So don't cling to your old problem. Let go of all of that. Realize the immensity of what is being told to you and don't confuse it with what the world can offer, because this world of birth and death will only offer things which are born and will die. Is it so?

The immensity of God's light is incomparable with anything in the world. So if you still are able to make this about you, it is making a big mistake. It is making a deal which you just don't want to make actually. Be empty of yourselves. Try it out. The clutches, the crutches and the clutches of the world seem compelling and sometimes even useful, but let go of your crutches and try it out. That is what is getting in your way. Even in your sadhana, if there's too much focus about 'Am I getting it? Am I doing it? Is it happening for me? Am I making progress?', you just make it very like one step forward, two steps backward.

Like often I say, it's like drinking the poison every time and then searching for the antidote. Every time you want to make a temple of God, but you're painting all the bricks with 'me, me, me', then how is it going to happen? Look, look like that. Every moment of your life, what is the brick you're placing in the temple? Is it Ram, Ram, Ram, or is it 'me, me, me'? Or is it 'Ram for me'? One side Ram, one side me. So we try to fool God like that, but actually we are only fooling ourselves. And actually, as metaphorical as it may sound, what I'm saying is quite literal. When the holy light is apparent for you in your heart, then your life is a temple of God because you are blessed with that holiness in your heart.

It's a bit like Star Wars: the Force is with you. Sometimes all these things which show up in pop culture also become very appealing to us because somewhere they speak to us inside, not so different from the Mahabharat, the Ramayana. And once you are blessed with this light in your heart, which is unperceivable—so don't start imagining stuff, right? It's not a perceivable light. It may have perceivable byproducts like love, peace, joy, even a physical sensation of light maybe a byproduct, but never exchange that light which is beyond sight for any of the byproducts.

You get an intuitive sense of its presence, not a perceptual vision or a seeing of this. But then that becomes your inner guide who can guide you in every way. Your sensitivity becomes so soft that you start to notice in your words if your words are going in the wrong direction and they're becoming proud. You can notice the light in your heart and when you're truly in service to God, you notice that within yourself. Again, this is not at all energetic contraction or expansion; it's beyond all those realms. So don't confuse yourself with those things. But you have a navigation, inner navigation in your heart which can guide you every step of the way, and then we start truly living in His will.

What are we guided by right now? What is our navigation system? What's our navigation system at the moment?

How do you decide your next move? Pleasure and pain?

Huh? Pleasure and pain. So, realm of perceptions and then the narratives. Mostly the narratives even about the perception: 'This will give me more pleasure, this will give me less pain.' These kind of motivations, or even 'This will give me more spiritual progress, this will make me better.' We are right now mentally guided. And for a while it will seem difficult because that is our habit, it's our conditioning. So when the sages tell us to let go, then that will seem difficult. And by the way, when I say the sages, I'm not counting the stupid one, and that they're saying that we all collectively learning from them.

So when they tell us, it can seem difficult because we got so used to using these crutches and we feel like we are going to fall without them. What is going to happen? That is where the leap of faith is needed. So at some point we have to say, 'I am letting go fully and surrendering to God's will.' And then we fail, and then we say again, we recommit, and then we live in God's will, and then we fail, then we recommit. We live in God's will, then we fail. But this is not a sad story. It can sound like that: we recommit, we try, and then we fail. Doesn't sound like a glorious story that we want our spiritual life to be. It's actually very beautiful because every moment you spend empty of 'me' is the greatest gift you can give to yourself.

What is our idea of a spiritual life? It is not committing, facing difficulty, feeling, committing again. Please start flying, get the disciples fast like that, get aura, get some things like that. Those all sound like a better spiritual option to live. So saying that, yes, and that is the popular idea of balance, of trying to do this in a way where you don't lose the 'me' also and...

Actually very beautiful because every moment you spend empty of 'me' is the greatest gift you can give to yourself. What is our idea of a spiritual life? It is not committing, facing difficulty, feeling, committing again. Please start flying, get the disciples fast like that, get aura, get some things like that. Those all sound like a better spiritual option to live. So saying that, um, yes, and that is the popular idea of balance, of trying to do this in a way where you don't lose the 'me' also and you find a way to God also. So yeah, oh, both fully, fully. Okay, so it can seem like that, that I can do this, keep the 'me' also and get God fully also. But the beauty of this is that as we go deeper within in our sincerity towards God, then God himself shows us how to take the next step. What is the next step that we have to take? Because how does God show us? Because this light is not just the source of love, presence, peace, but it's also the greatest source of guidance, of intelligence.

So when I say discipleship of the Satguru within or discipleship of the Atma within, it is literally the Guru of all gurus, the one for whom all the worldly teachers are just instruments. So many of you listening may have this idea of becoming a teacher, becoming a guru, and the world needs you. The world needs so many more to share God's life. But the only way you can become a teacher is by becoming a complete instrument of the Guru within. But if you want to become a teacher, you cannot become a teacher. If you want to become a servant and instrument to the Satguru presence, then you can be a teacher. And you can still become a teacher in the world, but you will not be a true teacher of God. So the way to teach, the way to share, the way to spread this light is to yourself live in it. Can a diya which has got some LED light, can it spread the light to another diya? It can't. It has to be burning with the true light of presence; only then can it be spread. Why I said that light thing? Because with our eyes in Maya we are not able to tell, but God knows, the Atma knows. So in that surrender to God, in that becoming a temple of God with integrity, with sincerity, with servitude and love to God, only then can your life truly transform into sharing God's life.

Guruji, you spoke about failing and then starting over again. So I want to practice this, but I see two kinds of failures here which I go through. One is this: when you commit that every moment you will be with the presence, and somehow I try to do that and without me knowing, I just go out of it. Yeah, I'm able to forgive myself on that. But some other times when I would have committed that I would find joy only with God, and then I see myself going and watching IPL, going and eating something nice. So I'm finding joy in that. I see myself going to that. I can see it; it's not just that it just happens without me knowing. I could see it happening and I'm not able to control myself. Those kind of failures, it's difficult to get back. I mean, it feels like you have cheated it. You knew it, you couldn't control it.

So thank you, that's a very good question actually. So he says that we talk about committing to remain in the presence of God and then failing along the way, and this failing is going to happen. But he said that, 'I notice for myself that I fail in two different ways.' You see, one is that I'm just going about my life remaining in presence, then something comes, it takes over, I don't even realize it. And he says that, 'I am able to let that go and say, yes, it just Maya grabbed me, I couldn't help it, it's fine.' But the other is when I realize that I'm following my own will, I'm following my own want, you see, and not waiting for God to guide, not waiting for God to move. In that, there are two presumptions. One is that God cannot ever bring us towards the IPL, because if I remain empty in God, then He'll want me to go sit in a cave. It's very likely, but nothing stops God from—He knows exactly what is best for us to do.

Now what happens is that we feel that we make those choices consciously, and all of us do in a way. We say that, 'I'm going to rush into this. I'm just going to say that, okay, now I've not seen so many matches, one match I'll watch,' like that. So we make some excuse to follow our own will instead of following God's will. Now forgive yourself for that also, like you forgive in the first place, you see. But forgive and then recommit with your intention, because your guilt will not help. Your guilt is not needed; your noticing is needed. So you noticed it, that I went with my own terms, and then we lost the match anyway, you see. So what is the point? Just for example. Which is very likely with our team. So just return there and allow Him to now. The mind creates a structure where we start to think that if I live in God's will, it's going to be a very dry, lifeless sort of existence, like a neeras type zindagi. All that is joyful in our life, You will take away. But that is not true at all, because He is the source of joy.

And why do we entertain ourselves in worldly ways? Because we want some joy from that, isn't it? So but where does the joy come from? Does it come from the TV screen? It doesn't come. So God himself is the source of joy, and joy cannot come unless it is His will, see. So if you stay with that which is the source of all joy, then why will He make your life joyless? You will—okay, I don't want any benchmarks or things like that—but you will start to feel joy in the smallest things which you just neglected in the past. Your life will be so permeated with love, peace, joy that you'll wonder how can you give them away to all your brothers and sisters who seem to carry frowns on their faces all the time, seem to be struggling through life as if they are carrying a big boulder on their back or something like that.

But you're right that there may be a period of rehabilitation, like withdrawal symptoms. So we get that which we thought was joy; when we have to give that up, then for some time it can feel like it's difficult. You want a bit of that, you want some of that. But then what you realize is that your natural state was much better than the addicted state. The one who is moving towards sobriety from addiction, they may feel like, 'But my life will become pointless. The fun, the joy, the pleasure I'm getting from the world substances, you see, I'm missing out on all of that.' But when they return to sobriety and they are able to just not be constantly craving, they find so much more joy in that, so much more rest in that. So for a while it may seem like the withdrawal symptoms seem strong, especially because everyone around us seems to be caught up in these things. And they will not just spend their life doing these kind of things, but they will also think that we are strange and say, 'What's wrong with you? Come, come, there's enough time to become a sadhu.' But actually there isn't.

Then when you live in God's life, then He creates so much joy every day for you. And does it have to be that something special is happening? No. But you're starting to taste the magnetism of every frame of this movie more and more. Every note of a bhajan will start to sound so much sweeter than it did earlier. A child smiling will start to look so much more beautiful than you ever noticed in the past. So you find so much grace and beauty in every moment of this life, see, because you are securely in God's temple in your heart. See, the problem of suffering mostly in the world is because of a feeling of a lack of safety, a lack of security. And the world is—without God's presence, the world can seem like a scary place, is it? So as grown-ups we have to pretend as if that is not true and we've got it all under control, you see. But we have nothing under control. In one minute this building can be swept away, right? We build a whole family and life around everything; everything can go. So we try to suppress all of that insecurity, all of that fear, and we paint a veneer of, you know, feel-good, and we feel that we have things under control. But a bit of prodding and all that starts crumbling, isn't it? All that starts tumbling down.

The only security is to be in the temple of your heart as a servant. In that temple, you will be the highest and life will be the highest. For that, there may be some period of time where you have to work towards the rehabilitation of your life from the way of egotism to the way of God, but it's well worth it. So and again, I'm not speaking from a position—oh, you watch the match, Maya is compelling here also. I'm foolish every day. This year, thankfully, I haven't seen the IPL. I think last year I've seen a few, but nothing here is claiming to have achieved any sort of mastery or something like that. So our spiritual life is a lot of joy, a lot of peace, a lot of love inwardly, but there are also times of inward strife, inward struggle. It can seem like the Mahabharat at times. So it's like you're waging war against desire, you're waging war against the compelling nature of the world to transcend this Maya.

That's why I've been saying that how you start your day is very, very important. So this morning I woke up and I was saying it was seeming so disconnected, you see. Or some of you may be surprised, but it's true. So disconnected I was feeling, like just the light is gone out, you know. And that I get very restless like that. I just want to pray, want to do something, you know, just to return. So then what happened? Because I was still quite sleepy and not even praying properly, you know, was just a mess basically. So then I had my computer next to me, so I put on some bhajan. And not—it was not some great classical bhajan or anything. I went to the soundtrack of Shrimad Ramayan and because I've been watching every episode, then you know, you start to relate the tune with His presence and you start to feel that Ram is with you and you know, this kind of stuff. I played two or three of that and I started to get a sense, you know, the light started to become apparent again and then I feel like, breathe.

But what happens in the world, most of our brothers and sisters don't even realize there's two different pathways of life. One is in God's presence and the other is—like if many years ago if I had woken up like that, oh, I would maybe noticed but not even noticed. I would have gone along my day and probably spread a lot of strife and these things all around me. So I don't know if all of you start to notice or or maybe you far surpass this man, so maybe you don't have these things. But it's good to start your day, see. And if you notice and you're honest with yourself, then with this waking up, we don't know what all we've woken up from. You can just feel like, 'Oh, I went to sleep last night, I was so alive in His presence,' and but this morning nothing happened in between is what we believe. But we don't know what all things we may have encountered, what realms we may have visited in our dreams, what all experiences. Sometimes we wake up from a dream, we have this like after days we may have some fear, we may have this kind of thing. So there is nothing extremely special about this dream compared to those dreams, at least in our experience.

So we don't know what all we have gone through, how many millions of years may have passed in the time from which we think we went to sleep to the time now. So never take these things for granted and say, 'Oh, but you know, I'm supposed to be enlightened, it can't go out for me.' Often—I don't want anyone to feel like there's anything special going on here—it does happen often. And all the great things I'm saying are things just I've heard from the sages anyway, but these things which are human feelings happen a lot here. So any moment of being away from Him should feel like it's not something where you can say, 'Oh, okay, today is a write-off, now tomorrow we'll see.' All the tools are available with you, all the pointers are available with you. Return to His presence because His presence is our only security, you see. When I say...

All going on here, it does happen. And all the great things I'm saying are things just I've heard from the sages anyway, but these things which are human feelings happen a lot here. So any moment of being away from him should feel like it's not you. It's not something where you can say, 'Oh okay, today is a write-off, now tomorrow we'll see.' All the tools are available with you, all the pointers are available with you. Return to his presence because his presence is our only security. You see, when I say security, it means that you feel you want to live a life for good. Good is only unfolding through his life. All that is stupid and foolish unfolds through our own terms when we are mental, but the only goodness unfolds when we are living in his presence, his life. So don't say, 'Oh, but something else is very important.' There's nothing more important than you returning to God, because that one day otherwise can easily turn into a life. How many lives, we don't know. That's an excellent question, thank you, because we start to notice these things. That's very good.

Yeah, just noticing that, like you said in the morning, just leave everything to God. Everything. Because the mind had made the whole chanting... I'm just noticing that whatever is needed, the heart is chanting it. Like whatever form of God, from Ram, Jesus, Allah, Krishna, sometimes all together, but he's just doing it. Like whatever needs to be done, I don't have to do anything. That's the greatest relief. Like he just knows what to call out and what to do. Mind had made everything into a thing, Father. He just knows exactly what needs to be invoked. Yeah, yet this is not a position. I know that there might be times when I don't know. I actually don't know. I don't know anything right now. This is what I'm noticing. He's just doing it all, like he knows exactly what to call out.

Yeah. So as long as we recognize that... that example which I take, which is that a freshman in college saying, 'I cannot know anything.' A what? A freshman in college. A freshman in college saying, 'I cannot know anything, nothing can be known.' You see, mostly coming from their unwillingness, laziness, whatever, pride. But somebody who's spent their whole life surrendering their life to God and then saying that only he knows, only he knows, only he can do. So of course, in your report, I'm sensing the second, but it's very common for it to be the first also in the world.

That's why I want to... the truth was brought down to my knees, like where I said, 'God, I don't know. Like, come, if you want to kill me, you kill me.' Literally that kind of a...

It's the best place to be sometimes, you know, where you're brought down. You have no... that this is... you have to come here. Because something Ram Ji said... like, I don't know the exact... but that really like... just point the mic towards your mouth. Towards the mouth, I need to do that also, apparently. He said... can I read it? I really loved it. He'll come, we'll solve the audio. We'll come to that in a bit. Ananta had typed this to me, I think from... had typed this from... says this hit me so hard. Like, I'm trying myself, I am the block, you know? I am the block. Yeah, just, 'Oh, this me is the block.' If you make it about self-concern, then it will only get in the way. If what she said... ah, that's... she's only making me test my... is it typed in English?

It's typed in English, okay.

So let's go slowly. As much as that one worries about themselves, as much as one believes that they're doing it out of their own power, that much we end up blocking God's grace. The amount of self-concern we put, the amount of pride and doership we put into anything, that is the way to block God's grace instead of to invoke it. Like, similar, we make ourselves similar to God's attributes. The more open we are, the more fearless we are. Yeah, the first line said, 'Sharan, the one who takes refuge in God and is fully reliant on God, he doesn't have to do anything for himself. Whatever happens by God's will, he's happy in that.'

Clear. What... so many times I feel like I'm meeting the presence and then so many of these sensations happen, you know? They take my attention and then I get a little distracted again and again. It happens.

Actually, these energetic unfoldings should help us deepen in our presence, so don't worry about them. But naturally, they'll do some job where you learn to remain deeply, more deeply in his presence, there in service to his presence.

Yeah, like I feel like sometimes it's like a... I don't want it. I want to just... before I wanted all this, you know, now I don't want all this.

But so God is just clearing the backlog of prayers right now. All the prayers of the times when I wanted, so those are playing out. The not wanting will also clear.

So I don't actually know if it's taking me deeper or it's taking me out. Like that, you're saying should I not notice more like...

No, just let it be. Don't worry about it. It's just like the storm came, it passed. We stayed in satsang. So you stay in God's satsang within your heart. All this is not so important to worry about. And if it is coming from God, it is helping. If it is not coming from God, it will go away.

Is it coming from God, Father? It seemed like for me, I always feel that... I mean, I don't know, definitely it's not coming from me. So that is... so when you speak of the light, the unperceivable light, yeah, I feel like I want to look at that more because, like say right now, I don't want to say about past, like now, like right now, I visibly feel a light and I feel that is the anchor. Like it's a visible in the sense like these lights... no, it's like a diya. Like a diya, like a... but literally like a diya. No, there's no sensation to it. No, in the sense that if it was in front of you like that... no, just the light. Not just the light of the... yeah, like you would see in front of you like that, you see inside you.

Yeah, okay. What is the source of that? In which light are you experiencing this light? Is it... there needs to be a light in which we even perceive, isn't it? But that light in which we perceive, is that perceivable?

This feels like the... to let go, this feels like an anchor, right? It's fine, right?

It's fine. So we're just exploring more. So we say that you notice a perceivable inner light which is similar to the light of a diya which we may see in the world. Now, for that perception to happen, does there have to be a light in which this light is perceived? There has to be. Okay, so let's move that from an inference to a recognition. You can sense that light. That light is your anchor and that is unperceivable, isn't it? Because if it was again perceivable, you could again ask that question. Is anyone able to follow? What you can perceive, this hand, it is only happening because you are here, otherwise you would not be able to perceive, you see. Now you perceive a light of a lamp. You perceive the light of a lamp inwardly also, which means that it's still outwardly but it's like within ourself, not in this world. In whose light is that even inner light of the lamp perceived? You have to be present for that lamp to be perceived, isn't it? So that you which is present, that presence is the light.

Because it seemed like light... it's not... it's not this kind of light, but it is... it is... I... it's difficult to find better words to express that.

That's why even Bhagavan said, 'On whose light do you see the light of the sun?' In which light? Huh? Yes, in a way, the presence itself, you see. The light of the presence. Yes, light of God's presence. And the more apparent it seems, the deeper we are in his surrender, in his love, in self-recognition. And the less apparent it seems, the more distant, the more involved with the world we are, the more the world is seeming real. Yes, the more apparent this unperceivable light is... should I just turn this off? It's coming from... check, check. The more apparent the light of God's presence within yourself is seeming, the more you have been faithful, loving God, true to God, a true servant in servitude. The less apparent it seems, or if it seems disconnected, that's what I was saying in the morning, that if you feel disconnected from that, then the more the world is seeming real. This Maya seems to be the truth and God seems to be just a concept.

Let me remove this. I just want to clarify. See, different... when you're speaking, I don't want to imagine what I'm... of course. So one is that that light which is like a lamp, one you speak of God's presence, and I feel like light in my chest. Like it's not the same as... yeah, then this one is... this feels like God's presence.

God's presence, which is unperceivable or perceivable? Yes, that's... no, but this is the very light I'm talking about, the light of his presence. You don't have to worry about any other light. The light which is both perceivable and unperceivable, but we can say mostly unperceivable. Very different from the light that we can imagine or it can be. That's why I said in the beginning that the byproducts will be in the form of love, peace, joy, and maybe even a phenomenal byproduct in the form of some light, some light in the chest, in the center of the heart. But not to bother about any of the byproducts. This is a... yes, yeah, slowly. Yes, as slow as I can see. So there is a... the same... there is a vibration that the light of the Atma, the light of the presence, is just... yes. If there is phenomenal light, then let it be there, enjoy it, but don't get attached to it. And but that is not the light where I'm saying that will guide you. That will... it'll seem like your whole inside is lit up like in a worldly life, but don't bother about that light. The light of Atma, which is the primordial vibration, we can't really say whether it's fully non-phenomenal or fully phenomenal. It is mostly non-phenomenal with the tip of the iceberg jutting out. Remember we've spoken about this for a long time.

Like I just... if I just fall now... you can use it for them at least... if I just fall, then it's like God is holding me. Like I just... like I'm in... yeah, and that is the presence of God. I cannot fall out of God.

Yes, that's good. It's a beautiful way to put it.

So you're not... like say awareness we talk about, you're not referring to that as the unperceivable light?

No. Okay, so let's go really slowly because I haven't spoken about this part for a few weeks. So there is this world of phenomena. Clear? Perception: sight, sound, touch, taste, feel, whatever. All perception apparent, I mean clear, you see. And how do you see phenomena? But you have to see it in the light of some worldly light, in some perceivable light, isn't it? Without which it's all dark, you cannot perceive it. But even if that light is there but your presence is not there, you can still not perceive, isn't it? Like if you were asleep, you see, you can still not perceive, correct? So everything that is phenomenal is Maya. Everything is unreal, is coming and going, is the realm of the changing. Everything, spiritual experiences, any that we may be perceiving, anything, everything is Maya. And for most of you, I can talk like this. So at the other end is pure awareness, where it is completely non-phenomenal. Correct? So this purely phenomenal and there is purely non-phenomenal, correct? Now for most of us, if we had to go from the purely phenomenal to the purely non-phenomenal, it would be impossible. Let's say for all of us actually, because it will just remain a concept, it'll just be conceptual, it'll seem like an idea. So God in his grace—and I'm making a narrative, we can never explain the mind of God—but God in his grace allowed us to meet his presence in a way which is an intermediary between phenomena and non-phenomenal. You see? So purely phenomenal, purely non-phenomenal, so pure Saguna experience to pure Nirguna. So then we needed something which is Nirguna, you see, it had... so this sense of being, this sense of presence, you see, you can say, 'I experience it, I feel it.' Then I say to you, 'What is the size of it? What is its boundary?' It is boundless. Exactly, exactly, beautiful. So in coming to God's presence, in coming to...

He allowed us to meet His presence in a way which is an intermediary between phenomena and non-phenomenal, you see. So, purely phenomenal, purely non-phenomenal—so pure Saguna experience to pure Nirguna. So then we needed something which is Nirguna, you see. It had so this sense of being, this sense of presence, you see. You can say, 'I experience it, I feel it.' Then I say to you: What is the size of it? What is its boundary? It is boundless. Exactly, exactly. Beautiful.

So, in coming to God's presence, in coming to this presence of being, to borrow Ram Ji's words, you experience the vibration as well as experience the infinity intuitively, of course, because you can never experience infinity perceptually. The boundlessness—when I say what is the boundary of your being, you say it is boundless. Where does the Atma start and where does it end? You say, 'I can't make a location about it. I cannot say it's here or there.' But I say: Do you not experience it in your heart? Do you not sense it in your heart? And you say, 'Yes, I do. It's got like a vibrational quality.' So this we call the light of presence, the light of Atma, where you experience in its light, you see. It guides you about what to do in the world, but it also shines the light on that which is the pure Nirguna, the pure awareness itself, without which we cannot fathom. It is the... yeah, of course. And we must.

So all the encouragement is for you to surrender into it. Whether you call it falling, whether you call it surrender, allow it to do everything, to move you and to guide you. What is the nature of this Atma within? We cannot say. You can say it's so boundless, it's Nirguna, it's without any quality, without any attributes, but you can still get a sense of it, a taste of it, you see. But for awareness, you can't say, 'I get a sense of awareness.' Some people say like that, but it's not true. You can't get a sense of awareness. It is completely beyond sensibility, like sense-making, you see. Sensation, sight, smell, touch—like some dark empty space is not awareness. So it's impossible to get a sense of awareness, but you get a sense of your being, the sense of consciousness, the sense of Atma. So this presence which can be felt is called the Atma.

And all the debating in the world has happened around these things. All the debating in the world between all the sadas has happened about these things, isn't it? Nobody has said that we must be attached to the world, no matter which sad. Whether you are a pure Advaitin also, you will not say, 'Be attached to the world.' So the jagat must be let go of. That is the commonality in all the traditions, all the sad. Now the distinctions come between how to consider this presence.

So Shankara would say that there is no distinction between this Atma and paramatma. Therefore, this presence that we experience and the beingness which is infinite, there's actually no distinction. They are one, you see. A Dvaitin will say that is blasphemy to say that this Atma and paramatma are one. This is just a tiny spark in the fire of the paramatma. So this would be called then the Jivatma. The Jivatma and the paramatma, which is God's being—the Saguna nature of Ishwara—and the individualized, seeming individualized consciousness. In the mind of the Dvaitin, of a dual one, it seems like there are two. And that's why they will say the best you can do is for this Jivatma to find its final home at the feet of the paramatma. Is it?

Advaitins will say actually they are one, you see. But it's not as simple as that because there are fifty types of Advaita also. Some will say that there is completely no distinction, Shuddha Advaita, which means that they're absolutely the same. So when you come to Atma, you come to Atma, there is no difference. Some will say that actually it is same but it is different. So they will say this is Bhedabheda, which means that distinction, non-distinction. Is it? Now this I find to be most like how this expression is expressing. So this Achintya Bhedabheda, which means that it is completely possible to recognize the true oneness with God, that this Atma that I meet in my heart, you see, my Atma is the same as the vastness of the being. There's no distinction at all. And yet there is a distinction because this Atma, this individualized one, should remain in servitude to God. So the oneness is completely recognized and yet the need for servitude is completely recognized. So the Bhakti has to remain and the Gyana has to be apparent.

So there are many types. So some will say no distinction, some will say the distinction is only in words, some will say it is this kind of distinction, some will say it is that kind of distinction. So everybody creates based on their expression, based on how... and if they're true paths, then it is the Atma itself using their mouth. So the distinctions are also part of God's play and how they are being expressed, huh?

Is it true you just said that for your expression it's more like... what's the proper name for the Advaita?

Achintya Bhedabheda, which means that distinction, non-distinction which we cannot fathom conceptually. Achintya means we cannot think about it.

Yes. And I was, as I was following you, you said that you cannot deny that your being is God's being. There is no distinction. And then the second part would be like, yeah, the distinction. The 'me' that remains, or the part of the Atma which is playing as an individualized Atma, the Jivatma, that cannot be denied because there is a 'me' that still remains in spite of it being so apparent that there is no being that remains. See, and that is why it's... we cannot... last part, yes.

So it is very apparent that there is a being that remains, like a 'me'. The one that is the aspect of my being that is attached to the 'me' that still remains in spite of it being fully apparent that no such 'me' can remain. So in that... so that is why it is unfathomable, you see? Because those two statements actually can't be put together. If it is completely apparent that no such individual remains, you see, then to say the first part, that the 'me' still remains, which still takes itself to be something, you see? The being is still playing as the remnant of this 'me'. Like Bhagavan called it the burnt rope. He did not say that the rope disappeared. He says that our ego then becomes like a burnt rope and then the remnant of that rope is there. He did not say that the rope fully goes away. And no sage has ever said that 'my me is fully gone,' you see? So this is the Bhedabheda, which means that no distinction and yet distinction which cannot be fathomed in the mind, but we know.

And it seems to be the experience here that only the first part of that is real and the second part, even though it plays, is not... the second part is the oneness?

No, the first part is when you say, 'I cannot find any distinction or anything that is divided.' And then in the second part... so if you say that the distinction only appears, you see, only seems to be an appearance, then you're being like Shankara, who is Advaitin. He's saying that it's only Avidya, it is only in the Maya, which is both real and unreal, in which we experience a sense of duality or seem to experience a sense of duality, but it's not real. It's only ignorance. That's fine. I love that too. I was mostly a Shankara type for most of my life.

Okay. Yes, yes. He has written many devotional texts also, but it doesn't... I'm sorry, but this Shankara's, it doesn't deny the Bhakti part?

He doesn't, because he himself is a great Bhakta. He has written such beautiful stotrams. It's not to dismiss to be just that. I can only admit that oneness is free or not. Okay. So whether we call it the play of Avidya, ignorance, or we say that we notice that this remnant of the 'me' still remains and you know it is there, it is just conceptual distinction, you see? As long as we can remain in servitude to whatever our take... we take ourselves to be, whether through ignorance or in actuality as an unfathomable separation, it makes no difference in terms of what we must do. We must surrender that. We must be in servitude of. Because of that, we don't need to diagnose and say, 'Oh, this is not actually this, this is just ignorance,' you see? Or, 'Actually, this is actually just Jivatma, like a light, the spark of the fire.' You don't have to make that distinction. As long as there is one who can take themselves to be 'me', that one must be surrendered. Yes.

So in... yeah, many hands. So see, so we've not spoken about this aspect of it. So this relationship between that, the highest, and the presence, and the appearance of the world—between these three variables are the hundreds of different spiritual traditions of India, you see. Whether they are completely distinct, whether they are one but seem distinct, whether they are actually one, they don't even seem distinct but Maya plays a part or Avidya, ignorance, plays a part, you see. So everybody will have their own philosophy in it. I'm not interested in any of the philosophies. I'm just interested in telling you that this is the way to be in God's presence or come to God, you see. So I'm not at all saying that this expression becoming Achintya makes it more true than Shuddha Advaita. Not at all. It must be the stupidest expression, there is no problem in that. But the antidote is the same.

So don't worry about the... we are not saying this Satsang is this particular type of Satsang or we are not making distinctions based on any of those things. It just is saying that it is apparent that there is no distinction and yet this 'me' that plays. So this Achintya seems a very natural way for me to convey what I want to convey at the moment. Tomorrow I may wake up and become full... what distinction? What are you talking about? I can't see any. That's fine too. Because, sorry, but because the most important thing in all the paths is what to do with the jagat, what to do with the world, you see, which is not to be attached to it. Is there any path of spirituality, whatever the brand of spirituality it may be, which says you must be attached to the world?

Well, there was one. Who was that? Who said 'Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya'? So we have... so Shankara is saying that 'Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya, Jivo Brahmaiva Naparah,' which means that only Brahman is reality, the world is false, and there is no distinction between Jiva and Brahman, which is Jivatma and paramatma or Brahman. The highest are the same. 'Naparah'—there is no distinction. He said that, yeah, absolute. There are no distinctions between Brahman, which is both Saguna and Nirguna, and the Jivatma, the one that we take ourselves to be.

Now some will say that there is no distinction and yet there is a distinction. That is Bhedabheda. But like, except a few of these which are basically atheism, but those saying that only the world is real, all this talk of Brahman is illusion—but that is not spirituality anymore. But if you're in some... why would we bother with those characters? So those which are saying that the world is what it is, those are basically the Richard Dawkins of the world.

Well, now one thing is coming to say... when I was an atheist, there were some which I just ignored. Can you just imagine what my perspective was? And I'm not talking fun at anyone, and we are entitled to do whatever we want to follow. But as an atheist, what did I believe? I believed first that there was nothing. There was nothing. So imagine yourself, you are out in some floating in space, all the lights have gone off. As an atheist, you will believe that from that emptiness all this universe arose. That sounds more like faith to me. That from this... you're in an empty room, okay, let's make it simpler. You go to the mandir, all the lights go off, you're shut in that room. Suddenly within that nothing, there's a full universe that emerges. That's what an atheist believes. From nothing, everything comes. That's what I used to believe. That is the first thing.

The second thing is that, okay, now you're in the room. Suppose that all this arose. It is lifeless. It's like... okay, so make it simpler. It's like chairs and tables. Unicellular chairs and tables, because only single cell right now. So there is table and suddenly they became intelligent and alive. But you're sitting over there, you have no explanation. How could they become alive? Firstly, you have no explanation how did they come. I was sitting alone in a dark empty room.

Used to believe that is the first thing. The second thing is that, okay, now you're in the room. Suppose that all this arose; it is lifeless. It's like, okay, so make it simpler. It's like chairs and tables, unicellular chairs and tables, because only single cell right now. So there is a table and suddenly they became intelligent and alive, but you're sitting over there, you have no explanation. How could they become alive? Firstly, you have no explanation how did they come. I was sitting alone in a dark empty room, suddenly all this universe was born. That universe consists of these particles which are not alive, not sentient. Suppose, because we are not saying anything about Consciousness, they are saying that they are insentient particles which arose suddenly out of all this. All these tables and chairs—one of the tables started walking, talking, understanding, perceiving it. So we don't know how, but that's what must have happened.

Then what happened is that these unicellular organisms found a way to become multicellular. They started to collaborate, they started to get together. You see mitochondria and all this fancy stuff started. One started producing energy, other started hunting for food, all this kind of stuff. How this happened, that this table started working with this chair? How did they start to know about each other's capabilities and existence? We don't know. See? So how it came out of nothing, it just came, is what an atheist says. Or it's unexplainable is what an atheist says. How everything can come out of nothing seems like a very attractive proposition to an atheist rather than saying that it must be some great intelligence which produced all this, you see.

Secondly, how life came out of the lifeless, you see, we don't know. See, one day science will figure it out. Never figure it out. How life came from that which is empty of life—that is one bridge that science will not be able to cross. The third bridge is that how these single seeming units of life started to work together as if they are connected by one Consciousness. They want to explain that without Consciousness; it's again not going to happen. So as I was an atheist, this is what I never really contemplated. How is it possible that all this intelligence, beauty, light, sound, so much can come out of a sheer empty room? Not even a room, because it's nothing. All this came from nothing, from a sheer unintelligence, from a sheer limbo.

Second is, from this just particles, chemistry, chemical constituents, what breathed life into them? Nothing. They must have found a way somehow, as if they were looking for a way, but not Consciousness. They became alive, you see. Of course, from our perspective, we can see that everything was already alive, everything is already Consciousness. But their perspective is that all these chemical reactions happen, no, there's no life yet. Oh, so but one day life decided to come somehow. Then one day all these units of life, single cellular things, suddenly became intelligent. 'Oh, I can use that cell for energy and I can use that cell for getting food,' with no Consciousness connecting them. It just decided to happen that way, like one day a table will say, 'Oh, this chair is better if it sits with me.' It's all absurdity.

So all of these problems we say that one day, one day we will solve, but in the last so many years there's not one jot of progress made on any of these aspects of it. So at least from what I'm seeing now—and I'm happy to admit I'm very stupid still, I was very stupid to believe that old construct, maybe I'm believing another stupid construct now, you see—but I'm happy to be enlightened on any of these things. But if you just put yourself in the picture as a—I don't know how, but suppose you are the third bird, right? Just the witnessing. So you are just in an emptiness, no intelligence, no Consciousness, no light of anything, nothing. And suddenly this whole universe, or at least like the sprout and then in mass with massive speeds, is expanding and doing all of that from nothing. And that seems more plausible than saying there must be an intelligence which created all this? How? It's just a stubbornness because maybe the idea of that Supreme intelligence, that Supreme Consciousness, is more scary than believing the stupidity that all this intelligence must have come from intelligence and not from nothingness.

And we are so unable to explain anything that we are experiencing. Like who can explain Atma? The silliest explanation is the ones who will say it is a functioning of the brain. The Atma is the functioning of the brain. And what gave the intelligence to the functioning of the brain? 'Oh, that we'll come to that later.' So I would say even rationally it is more plausible to presume that this came from—all this creation came from—an intelligent life which impregnated this creation with its own light and life. It caused life, and then because everything was connected by one Consciousness, it could come together and collaborate and participate in this appearance, in this world. How did we get here? What are we talking about? Sorry, I went on that rant, digression.

I just want to report what's happening and see. So when the awareness—I don't know what word to use here because it's naturally not perceived but it's intuitively dived into, if I can use it—into the awareness dived into, I mean just as an expression. Because there's no way to say exactly, it's just so empty of any attribute.

Yeah, but in that there seems to be a—in Hindi there's a word called dund. In that, no, no, while don't worry, just chatting, don't. Yeah, so from the point of view of awareness here, where is the dundapan, where is the blurriness here?

This... so there is some... it feels like a withdrawal from all the senses. The world seems to become blurry. Okay, not that that is when that is apparent, this seems blurry. Then that is apparent, this seems blurry. We spoke about this actually. And so when I asked the question of who's the being here, and this the Saguna-Nirguna intersection comes and the attention goes onto that, then there seems to be a pure perception of what the senses are seeing. That is without any sense of me-ness in it. In that pure perception, is awareness still... does it... or does the world seem out of focus, or is awareness out of focus?

No, the world comes into focus in that sense without attention, with attention. And does awareness seem to cease to be apparent?

That's very difficult to say. It's there for sure.

Okay, right now it's here. Just perceive, it's here, no? Naturally awareness is not gone anywhere. Yeah, but are you presuming that? Like it's not an insight.

The difference I'm able to see is when you touch the sensation of being, yeah, then the pure perception is apparent and the attention on what the 'I' is seeing, for example this. Can you have pure perception without the being being apparent?

Being is apparent. Being is apparent now. When being is apparent, can awareness not be apparent? Good contemplation. So using beingness is apparent as beingness is apparent is... can it be unapparent? Seeing but not seeing. Yeah, yeah, it's a... that's why I started using this word 'apparent' years back because how else to recognize or seeing? Then we start to visualize. There is still a sense of something turning to awareness for... what is that? Like when you even direct us to the sense of being, yeah, and then ask the question, yeah, how is now the being apparent? Obviously nothing in front towards the world is seeing it, and suddenly the awareness comes into...

Yeah, so one is that. One is like an incidental process where when we come to the recognition of ourself as awareness, something just naturally withdraws all attention. Like being just naturally withdraws all attention from the world and it seems to just settle in the very force of attention. Like there you can have no distinction between attention and being, and yet awareness is fully apparent. And sometimes this whole process of withdrawing attention doesn't happen, you see, and the legs of the turtle, the tortoise, seem to be in the world—we can open that door—seem to be in the world and yet the Self remains the same apparent, within the same apparency.

So what may be happening right now for you is that you may feel like it's more natural for all your attention to get withdrawn and for you to remain in the recognition of yourself as awareness. But don't think of it as a prerequisite. It's very natural for it to happen and that must be continued, but it's not a requirement. It's not a requirement that our attention has to be withdrawn from the world for the apparency of the Self as awareness. So then what may happen very naturally over a period of time is that as you remain in pure perception also, you see that you have not lost the recognition of the Self.

If this is what you were saying, but there's the recognition of Consciousness, of being, and it seems that when you are inviting us to recognize awareness—what is aware of this Consciousness—it seems as something is shifting in the looking. Not that it's shifting, but something needs to become more subtle. And again, these are just words.

But yeah, it's not the same. It's not the same in the sense that we get more used to being intuitive than being perceptual, see? And because these are purely intuitive insights, you see, so for us to settle into being intuitive can seem like a deepening, can seem like a process of clarity, a shifting. Yeah, otherwise what happens is initially you may be intuitive when you come to satsang. Suppose you're sitting on the hot seat or something like that and the master says, 'Not this, not this, not this, not this,' you see, and then you access your intuition inside of your sensory perceptions, or rely more on your intuition than your sensory perception, you see. But those moments were few and far between.

But as you learn to settle in more and more in your intuition—and the good news about intuition is that you can run your worldly life also from there—so that is called the discipleship of the Atma. If you're learning to do that, that means we're learning to be intuitive about everything. Then it seems things seem to get clearer and clearer and the shift seems to get deepening within ourselves. But intuition itself is not deepening. Satguru presence is always the Satguru presence fully. The Atma is always fully the Atma. So all knowledge, all grace, all love is already present over there. But then in this play, as aspects of Consciousness, we're learning to drop the reliance on the false and coming to the reliance on the truth.

So we talked about all the brands of spirituality, we talked about atheism, but the good thing is, in the sense the pointer in that for us is that when jagat... then if you're taking the world to be real, then you can't... the apparency of the Self, the Brahman, will not be able to... just remain conceptual. That's why I've been saying that if God is not seeming too real to you right now, know that you're stuck in Maya. What is more real right now: God or world? God or world? Only one.

That's good. One says there is much gratitude here, Father. Thank you. As a child, the words in the Christian Mass used to be, 'Lord, I'm not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I will be healed.' Yes, me nothing now. These words keep coming and mean everything. Much gratitude.

So this is beautiful. This, see the word he said, Centurion said to Jesus that, 'I'm a commander in the army and I know how it works, you see. I tell my men you go here, they will go. You come here, they will come, you see. So you as the Lord of the universe, which I recognize now, I know you only have to say the word and it'll be done.' What faith! This is the God whose presence is in your heart, for whom everything in the world is nothing, just a plaything. And but that's why it is said that if he had the... if he had faith, Jesus said, if he had faith the size of a mustard seed...

Someone said to Jesus that 'I'm a commander in the Army and I know how it works, you see. I tell my men you go here, they will go; you come here, they will come, you see. So you, as the Lord of the universe, which I recognize now, I know you only have to say the word and it'll be done.' What faith! This is the God whose presence is in your heart, for whom everything in the world is nothing, just a plaything. But that's why it is said that if he had faith—Jesus said if he had faith the size of a mustard seed, then we could tell the mountain to move from here to there and it will. And the life of Hanuman is a great embodiment of that faith. He had no doubt, and even if doubts came, he would give it to Lord Ram. But on the basis of that faith, a mountain was nothing for him.

So that light, that intelligence, that supreme power called God—if you have limitations that we set to it... and we talked about the whole creation of this universe and we experience so many universes, not just this one. So that one which is giving light to all of this, we doubt what that one can do, and that becomes the boundary then of our faith. And how do we do it? The more we dwell on ourselves, the more we focus on me, me, me, the more doubting we will become, the less faithful we will become, and we'll start looking at faith as naivety.

When I was an atheist, I used to feel like all these people are so stupid. I mean, how naive can you be? You think Hanuman picked up a mountain and brought it to Lanka? And how stupid can you be, how stupid would it be to believe what Jesus said? He said if you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move mountains. Is it so? What initially seems as naivety, when you start living in contact with that unexplainable presence in your heart, all this seems like not even a mustard seed of faith. In the one who has created all of this, universes are nothing. What is a mountain for that one?

So our intellect keeps us bound and prevents us from living a life of fearlessness. Somewhere the doubter still comes and says, 'Let's get real.' But let's get real—capital R. What is real, really real? Then see what is really real. You are saying in satsang that you are that which is beyond all perception and has no location. No, you are nowhere in time and space. Is that real? In the practical sense of things, it is the most absurd, silly thing you can say, you see. So the minute you come to this instant, you come to this self-recognition, then all notions of worldly limitation must go out the window, no? Because you are saying you are beyond time and space. I say, 'Where are you?' You say, 'I'm not in a location and yet I am.' Or you should, hopefully. You are beyond time and space, as Bhagavan said, that these are just notional ideas, you see.

Where are you watching all this from? You are the pure witnessing, no? Sakshi. Where is that Sakshi watching all this from? Because it itself, in Nirguna, it doesn't have a location. So your reality is so far removed from anything that you can call sensible. To try to put God into a sensible box is sheer stupidity. How will you reconcile this fact that you are not in time and space, and time and space are only notional for you? How will you reconcile that with your practicality, with your lack of faith, with your boundaries?

So the more you live in God's presence, because that itself is so unexplainable... 'I am living in God's presence inside me.' How can God's presence be inside you? You are just this bundle of flesh and blood. How would God come there? Is God like a physical organ? No, no, not that inside. There's another inside. Now you left all practicality for that other inside. Where is that inside? You see what I'm saying? You see? So if you come to the inside but retain mental boundaries, it's like ordering the best meal in the restaurant but just eating the starter. Let go, let go. Many of you get caught up there. You want to take your insight, which is beyond all understanding, and squeeze it into a very small box of your understanding, which is just like, 'Oh, so then how is this like this?' But then you see, then it makes it very... 'Why should I pray if I am only that?' This kind of stuff. We get into these intellectual conundrums which are meaningless at this point. It's all fear of letting go, basically, or wanting to do this on our terms.

Not one intellect cannot answer one thing properly for us. Even 'Where are you?' Where are you? And yet we try to use it so much. Upon hearing twice a week at least that there is a holy guide in your heart which can take care of everything for you, these are the clutches of Maya which is fighting your own insight. And I'm not asking you to believe anything. What is your own insight about yourself? You are not a thing. Then why are you so concerned about things? Who can answer? If you have come to the insight 'I am not a thing,' then why are you so concerned about things?

Don't give yourself that time. If you don't give yourself that time, then it'll take some time. If you keep giving yourself time, it'll take your life, you see. And there's something deeper in that. It's where I love the innocence with which she said that, yes, it takes some time for it to take over, for the truth to take over. But as much as you can, don't give yourself that permission. Because if you don't give yourself that permission, then it'll take some time. If you give yourself that permission in the guise of it taking time, then it will take your life. And not to get attached to your effort, to not get attached to your doership, you see.

Actually, at the end of all of this, don't complicate it. Just endeavor to be empty all the time or endeavor to pray all the time. And then your prayer will become empty and your emptiness will become a prayer. Don't worry about those things. You just say, 'I'm going to pray, pray, pray' or 'I'm going to be open and empty, open.' That's all. The insight, all this taking care of behavioral changes, courage, faith—everything will come. But if anything wants to make you mental, if anything wants to make you attached, just say, 'No deal.' Empty all the time or praying all the time. That's all. And I don't need to repeat often that actually it's the same. All that you know, you've heard it all.

For those for whom prayer is resonating more, it seems doable. Like you said, prayer is the highest path. Those for whom remaining open and empty, unattached to the world, seems more doable, that is the highest path. Both are the highest path. And whether emptiness requires you to be in the inquiry, then that is the highest path. Whatever brings you to God is the highest path. Don't get caught up in all these categorizations. This is not the Olympics.

Just one of the sadhus, you know, doing tapas, yeah. And he... the interviewer asked him... first they all say, everybody says that the whole point is to just bring the mind into God. That's the only... whatever works for you, just bring your mind into the heart. So sometimes it's good to hear that because, you know, it can become like... I don't know, it became a thing in my head really. And so in openness and emptiness, I'm getting pulled out and like, I'm not chanting. It was crazy. No, it was just like a crazy trick of the mind. So it literally pulls you out, worrying that I'm not chanting when you're already in God. Like, it's crazy. I don't know how this can even happen. But they all say the thing: what your Guru has said, without doubt, follow it.

Anybody you hear, they're not talking about foolish ones like this. No, you're not foolish. This one says one thing one day and another thing the other day. What do you follow? Hmm?

There was one more guy, sorry, one more saint. Sorry, so sorry. He said, so you can say, 'Can't go anywhere else, Father.' What are you thinking? But the good thing is that what is not doubted here, what is not doubtable at all here, is the fact that His presence is here. The Atma is here. So as long as I can be a true instrument to that, we'll be in safe hands. But if pride or so many of these worldly things take over, then your kids have to help. Don't let this one die stupid. If some one day I become proud or something like that—maybe I already am—then you must fight with me.

And so we are going to win you back. I know you don't want to hear this right now. You said one day, you had said that it's for us, we have to be so fully in faith in you that it's very... you know, let's see. Grace will provide. Grace will provide the answer at the right... let's hope that time doesn't come. But if it does, yes, that full effort and full Grace. You have to put full effort because the mind will tempt you. It will pull you with nonsense. You don't even remember what it was tempting you with three days back. It seems so important right now. Don't bother with that. Stay with God's name, stay with God's presence.

You see, when you're open and empty, His presence will be apparent to you. When you're praying, His presence will be apparent to you. And the beautiful thing is that the presence loves to pray. Isn't that stunning? That your heart itself loves to pray. So don't leave this world without fully living in that world. In this world, catch the right train. Don't board the wrong train. And the wrong train is coming, offering us many things every moment. All the bells and whistles: 'Come, come, come, board me. You will win, you will come first, you will be better.' All this it will offer you every moment. The mind will. Don't board that train. Just let it go.

Something beautiful we heard in satsang today was one sadhu who's renounced the world and he's living in a cave. He said something very beautiful. He said that if we were focused on making worldly wealth—suppose we start with no money and we have to build up worldly wealth—for that we will work hard, we will have patience, we will have courage, we will make all the effort, and then we'll wait like a few years for it to slowly build up, build up, build up, if you're doing things the right way like that.

But what happens when we are trying to gain spiritual wealth? Then we want to rush. Then we don't want to work at it. We want it to be all Grace, no effort, see? So we don't want to do our part and we want a spiritual bank account to keep growing up. He's explaining it in a more simple way. It's a beautiful thing. We want our spiritual bank account to be going up without praying, without any sadhana. But we should have that same approach: slowly build up, build up, build up, build up. We don't chant the name of God, we don't remember Him enough, but we want all His gifts. 'Give me the Grace, give me love, give me the absence of suffering.' We don't chant His name, we don't remember Him, but we want all the benefits of spiritual wealth without working towards it.

Now in Advaita, this may sound too simplistic, and I feel like some of these things are really important because simple explanations of faith, patience, courage... how much prayer are you putting into your spiritual bank account? Then he also said that once you have the spiritual wealth, then it will be seen, it'll be apparent to those around you. You never have to show yourself to be something great, to be some teacher, you see. It will just shine through. So your objective has to be to build this wealth of sadhana within yourself.

So remain empty, remain praying. Every time you exchange the mind's temptation with the name of God, every time you let the mind's temptation go and remain empty, you're building your spiritual wealth. Every time you buy into those ideas, you fall for those tricks, you see, you're only trying to succeed in the world, build your material wealth. But what is really going to count? One thing he said, but very innocently—he said, I could never get my mouth to say those words, but he was explaining it to people in the village in a very simple style. He said, 'Your spiritual wealth is that with which you can buy God.' He didn't mean it like a business transaction, but that if there is something you can do in the world with which God can come, why not do that? See? What are we doing? We have to change our... I want to hear this.

Material wealth, but what is really going to count? One said, but very innocently he said, 'I could never get my mouth to say those words,' but he was explaining it to people in the village in a very simple style. He said, 'Your spiritual wealth is that with which you can buy God.' He didn't mean it like a business transaction, but that if there is something you can do in the world with which God can come, why not do that? See, what are we doing? We have to change our way.

I want to hear this. Even in the Sufi traditions, it is very common. They say that one day we have to leave this world and we have to go to our beloved, and there we have to carry our dowry in a very normal sense. And the dowry is whatever we remember Him, the name we chant Him. We have to weave like that, right? There are many songs also on that, right? The weaving the cloth, and I keep on preparing my dresses and this, and I will show to my beloved. This is beautiful.

I hope all of you heard it online also. The great sage said that one day I have to go to the home of my beloved and what will I carry there? What are the offerings I will get to Him? So he says that I'm weaving my dresses through chanting the name of God, continuously remembering God, and that is the offering I will have. I will be able to show Him when I go to my true home. Please take these things very literally because the sages are not exaggerating. All this is ephemeral, is temporary. We don't have to worry so much about these things. Worry about that—not worry, but fall in love with that which is eternal. Put your focus on that which is eternal. So the sages tell us to leave our worldly attachments, leave our judgments, leave all of that because soon we have to go home.

In English, so he said that, you know, you can go and do all the tapas and you can go and do all the, but you never, you know, I never used to understand what that means till now. I mean, like when you're really trying not to follow your mind, that's a wrestling within.

Yeah, you see, it is a biblical term and Kierkegaard has written a full book on it called 'Fear and Trembling.' It's an amazing book. I've been reading that. And how many times it seems like Maya seems so real and the ways we live in this world seem so real that the ways of God seem like we are in a wrestling match. Many times it feels like we are wrestling with God Himself. So this wrestling is very auspicious in the sense that what God wants us to do, like the full surrender, seems so far-fetched from what I'm able to do at the moment because I can't surrender one thing in my life to Him. You see, it can seem like a full wrestling match, but the wrestling match is where He's on our side actually. You don't realize that. We pray, we remain empty. What can we do? That's why what the great sages have said is: follow what your Masters told you.

All this we accumulate, sadhu, let's just look at it. That sweetest thing, these sweetest things, these sadhus, is like when anybody asks them, 'How can we thank you?' They just want you to be living how much love they have for God. No, just he said at the end, 'Just pray.' That's all. 'I don't want anything else.'

Yes, so she's saying that this sadhu, the same sadhu I was talking about, lives in a cave. So when this interviewer—so this man is going to YouTube, one is doing a good job going to these sadus who were truly in love with God and not popular, not well known, and seeing how they live and things like that. So when this interviewer was leaving his cave, he said that there's this whole open portion where monkeys can come and rats can come and all of that, so 'Can I just get it fixed up? You see, as a small token of my gratitude.' So he said, 'If you want to thank me, just remember God. Just pray to God.' He didn't accept money, he didn't accept any food, he didn't accept anything. He didn't want his place to be revealed where he lives.

That name, nobody knows. It just came up now. So when I was in Uttarakhand, I lived there for some, when I was three years I was there, and I'd keep arguing with everyone about God, whether He's real. And they were all very devout religious people and so much sacrifice in their lives just to even just keep the family livelihood, all of that. And I'm just like, I don't know what to say. I don't know.

It's beautiful that at that point you were like strongly intellectual, so you used to argue with them. But are they getting the rewards for it? They're doing all the sadhana. What we're talking about, sadhana, they've done much more already as a way of life that needs faith. They have faith, exactly. So they are in their faith getting rewarded for it. Their heart is telling them it is the right thing. These things cannot be. Sometimes he's saying that when we are living in the world and we see them and we say they're living such difficult lives—just one small chulha, not even gas, so they have to collect the wood and they have to burn and know what food they collect—such difficult lives. So the mind can come and say, the intellect can come and say, 'But is there a point? How do we know they'll be rewarded for it?' That needs a leap of faith. That what your heart guides you may be completely against what is reasonable.

I was speaking about reasonability the other day, that the intellect throws reason at us, no? It says, 'Come on, be reasonable.' With that 'come on, be reasonable,' we impede our faith so much. We become our own obstacle in living in God's light. So be faithful more than reasonable. And God is the most loving Father. Sometimes the mind makes this very like, 'Oh, but if you live in faith, then what will happen to your family?' As if God doesn't love your family. Only do you love your family? He will not take care of them? You are the only one? And so God will guide those to continue to be householders mostly. Even this sadhu said that if you have people dependent on you, then why would you want to leave? To do seva for them is important for you.

Not really, it is very minuscule amounts of things which you can predict. Nothing. You don't know how to move a finger. Like you once told me, what is your next? Even that. And I want to presume I have control, and every moment you show you don't have any control.

So can we say today that let's commit that we will treat spiritual wealth higher than worldly wealth? And not at all am I saying we must let go of worldly wealth unless that is what God is guiding you to, but give priority to one name of Ram rather than one thousand rupees. Yes, that is our true wealth. I couldn't hear. I was just saying that can we commit? Because all these things we can just talk about, but if we don't apply them in our lives, they will just become talk. So when the mind tempts us with material possession, material things in exchange for God, in exchange for remembering God, can we commit today that we will not fall for that trick? And if God has to give me money, He will give me money. If He has to make me work, He will make me work. Truly, not as an excuse, but allow Him to drive your life, to guide your life. Build on your spiritual wealth and let then material things, material wealth, be His concern, whether what He wants to bless you with, let that be what you're happy with.

One of the sages also said that—was it in a bhajan?—that he said that what is His will is what is best for me. I don't know what is best for me, what is better for me, what is in my best interest. That is only His will. When we impose our will, then we are only getting in our way. The day we can just start to fathom that, our life will become surrendered to God. That's the whole biblical story, the story of all scriptures, all traditions anywhere in the world. When you take yourself to be the decider, the one who makes your plan, then you just get in your way. If you allow His will to unfold through you, you see. Be careful of presuming that His will means that you're just sitting. That may be His will, but many times it's not. So don't presume what His will is going to be. 'I'm following God's will so I didn't do that.' Just follow His will if He is the one that moved you or He is the one that told you. Don't presume God's will, but if His will is not accessible to you, then follow the words of satsang, follow the words of scripture, for then provisionally that can be your guidance to how to live.

Okay, one child says, 'Feeling lost and scared at times, like an angry, abandoned, and rejected child. Coming back to God's presence seems to be harder and not staying there very long. Desperate and on my knees praying and offering amidst the inner war. Yes, trying, Father.' Good, very good. 'Desperate, wishing to go beyond the angry child who craves love. The pain gets in the way of God and it seems so magnified these days. Asking for your mercy, compassion, and deep prayer. Yes, I know I sound like a broken record. Can't crash any lower. It's never happened like this and for this long.' I am feeling your prayer. Your trying is what is important. Very good, very very good.

Okay, let's go to Samia. Father, can you hear me? Yes, yes. Okay, thank you so much again. I don't know why I came up. I just want to pray, Father. Yes, yes. I don't know even what about to pray, but I just want to pray because I still don't trust to pray alone. I feel like I'm not heard or getting response, so I still need you at least for that.

I'm always with you, always with you to pray, always with you. And it's not at all important to know what to pray for or even to know how to pray. Just that little bit which you heard from your teacher in satsang is enough. We don't have to become experts on the method. We just have to remember Him, keep the focus on Him. And as we keep the focus on Him, it is already beautiful because we have let go of the temptation of our mind in that moment, of the world in that moment, and we remain with Him. That is the simplest prayer: to leave all concern about the world for one moment and just to remember Him. Just like that, more and more His presence will reveal itself to you and then you have this guide, this holy guide in your heart who will guide you every step of the way. So we learn how to surrender the content of the world moment by moment to His grace. And the more we surrender, the more He teaches us, the more we learn from Him, either wordlessly or in words, that doesn't matter. So fully with you in your prayer. Your intention to pray itself is music to my ears. Full blessing, full love, full blessing.

I just want to pray that I first want to thank you because I always feel I'm in this grace, like I don't feel any separation and always in this prayer. Actually, I feel so blessed in this way and I don't do so much thing. I feel like it's just grace took me some time ago and never left me. But also in the satsang you mention about when we follow the intuition it will guide us in life, and it is my struggle and I want to really ask for help on this. Yes, I don't know why but it's a big struggle for me and it continues to be. And yeah, may I surrender to His way and also to move in this life. May He make it easy for me and I shall just leave any stubbornness which I'm aware or I'm not aware, but anything in the way. And I really want to follow the intuition and hear on the way, on the life also. And I really pray for this. May He make it easier for me more and more starting from now.

It's good. He is the one that we can ask for anything. So I join you in your prayer. May He make it easier and easier for you. Because it's really not easy for me, Father. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, thank you for allowing me to say this. Bless you, bless you. Thank you. Welcome. And yes, thank you. So don't leave your inner light. Come with me, start your day, come to His presence first through the day, stay with His light. And when we fail, when we forget, just return. It will seem hard at times, but it's important to go through those times. But may His grace, may His love make it easier and easier.

Make it easier and easier for you, yeah, because it's really not easy for me, Father. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, thank you for allowing me to say this.

Bless you, bless you. Thank you, welcome. And yes, thank you. So don't leave your inner light. Come with me, start your day, come to His presence first. Through the day, stay with His light. And when we fail, when we forget, just return. It will seem hard at times, but it's important to go through those times. But may His grace, may His love make it easier and easier for all of you.