The Pride of Knowing - 29th December 2025

The recognition of this and the seeing of this, somehow we become spacious in our existence. We become open in our existence. And as we become open about our outer existence, then our insides become fertile for deeper inner insight. And the more we learn to live in that deeper inner insight, the more we become open in the outer existence. So it is not—let me try and put it in simpler words. It is not just that we can't really speak about that which is beyond appearances. We can barely even speak about that or think about that which is in the realm of appearances. And that is a big blow to our idea of knowing things.

And our identity is resistive to that. Our identity is resistive to that looking because it relies on its narrative a lot. And its narrative is based on what it thinks knowing is. And then someone comes into your life who says you don't even know one moment, what are you talking about your life? It's bound to be irritating somewhere. What does this have to do with spirituality? Everything. Everything. Because if we grasp on tightly, then we cannot really become fertile for the spirit to show us reality. That's why first it's important for us to unwind a bit, to lightly recognize the limitations of the instruments that we have which we claim to be the instruments of knowing.

Let me swing the pendulum the other way and give you an absurd example. So a mosquito sat on your ear and said it will explain to you what it sees as the nature of reality. Let me repeat the example. If a mosquito sat on your ear and said, 'I will explain to you the nature of reality,' how much credence would you give to that? Well, with a speaking mosquito maybe. But we have this human pride that no, how can a mosquito know the nature of reality? Now, in the overall scheme of things, we are, in terms of our existence of our body-mind, it is not very different from a mosquito. And yet we are able to make that claim much more authoritatively that I know what this is. And I don't know whether you see it yet or not, but that is the source of all trouble. And I don't even know that you can say it seems to be the source of all trouble.

What happens when you unclench yourself in this way? You're no longer oppressed by this constant need to conceptualize and to fit knowledge into your head. The compelling need to understand more and more in the wrong place keeps us away from meeting more and more reality in the right place. Like I said to another child, unless you first relax, nothing is going to happen in satsang. If you're very caught up in whether your mind is understanding or not or your intellect is able to judge or not, then that heart transmission, which is what satsang is for, is far, far from that because the instrument itself is different. So if you're supposed to get a bowl, an empty bowl to satsang, and instead you insist on working with a pair of scissors, how is that going to work out for either of us? And the same applies to the teacher also, that if I'm meant to be the empty bowl and I insist on being a hammer, then how is it going to work out for either of us?

So really it is the openness which is golden. Without even being too conclusive about that, maybe a recording, listening to the recording may help. But what happens then when we are no longer in a conceptual grasping mode? Firstly, remember that we've left the modality which is constantly telling us what is happening. So what happens then itself should become like a Zen koan because you can't answer it from the wrong place because otherwise you haven't left it. I know it's sounding difficult to follow to me, so maybe it's meant to be consumed in some other form. I'm not sure.

So what I'm saying is that if we let go of our conceptual grasping and then the question is asked, 'What happens then?' we can't return to the conceptual grasping and answer from there that this is what happens, you see? So then what the questioner is already presuming is that there's another mode of knowledge which will help you see in a different way. To be able to maybe not yet provide the words to answer that question, but for you to recognize what is in a different way. And we can just point to what we recognize when this happens with us, which is that we are not actually lost. In fact, we seem to be on very familiar ground.

And that familiar ground is where the real spiritual work starts to happen. Spiritual work is what? Truth, love, beauty, in whichever order you want to say. But unless we first let go of the false instrument, the recognition of truth, love, beauty will only remain conceptual and not a lived insight. How is it possible that we let go of everything and then we come to true insight about what is true about love and what is the source of all beauty? It is because when we let go of the false, then God's grace is upon us and by His grace, through His eyes in the form of the Atma within, we are shown the—there is a revelation about the truth about ourselves.

So whether we say that we get a new set of eyes or whether we say through His eyes we see, it is the same thing. The one within ourselves who can show us reality is the presence of God itself, which we may call the Atma or the spirit. Until there is a recognition and then an ever-deepening realization of oneness, till then we are in a very holy posture of being inward-facing, of being face to face with the Atma within. And the sages have told us that remaining inward-facing in that posture is what brings to us the light of the Atma itself. And then the purpose of our life is fulfilled.

But remember that we cannot return to the old instrument to track or decipher our spiritual journey or progress or depth. Try and put it simpler—I know I've been promising that. So when you have a heart insight, then you cannot use your head to decipher what happened in your heart insight or to store that revelation in your memory or to make a progress chart about your spiritual journey. It's a very humbling and a very innocent space. But what greater gift can we have in our life where the presence of God itself is teaching us within our heart instead of the lawyer for Maya? In the West, you may call it the devil's advocate. There are two teachers possible in our lives: the lawyer for Maya or Atma itself, the Holy Spirit itself.

Which discipleship is simpler? Atma's discipleship is simpler, but it seems very difficult because we got used to the difficulty. We got used to the struggle of trying to understand. And if somebody says all you have to do is sit in the light of the Atma, you're like, 'But I'm not learning anything. I'm not doing anything.' Especially because the revelation cannot be immediately translated by the mind. Just so when the sages have told us 'be as you are,' this is what they're saying. Don't add any complexity. Don't add that grasping, that conceptual knowledge. How would they say just remain if it was just remaining in a nothingness? What seems to the mind like remaining in a nothingness is to remain in the presence of the highest in reality.

So letting go does seem difficult and that's why the spiritual path seems difficult. Actually, if you surrender your life to Him, He will show you everything. He will bring you true love, presence, insight, beauty. So just flow. Don't frame. Don't frame anything. All the moving edges move. Don't put anything in a frame of understanding because we've seen by now that that frame of understanding is not worth even the price of a photo frame. Basically meant to misguide us, it is the source of all conflict, all suffering. You don't need to add any intelligence to what is naturally present. In fact, you cannot.

We think that we are adding something to the process by thinking about it and by conceptually assigning labels and creating narratives. But we are not. We are actually missing the true love of our lives. And we are missing the true design of our existence. Our very design is to be with God and to be then one with God, not become God. I'll explain the distinction—no, can't actually explain the distinction, but I'll attempt to point at the distinction.

So, Maya the hypnotizer, its game plan is to avoid us from fulfilling the very reason of our existence by providing false reasons like security and body and relationship and conceptual meaning. These are replacements of the true reasons of our existence. So we have to allow the old operating system to get wiped clean and to operate from that which is the deeper principle. And the pathway to that is loosen up a bit. Loosen up. When the mind comes, offers you a tempting conclusion, relax. Huh? What do you say? In a moment, you already recognize the restful nature of this loosening up.

Our existence by providing false reasons like security and body and relationship and conceptual meaning. These are replacements of the true reasons of our existence. So we have to allow the old operating system to get wiped clean and to operate from that which is the deeper principle. And the pathway to that is loosen up a bit. Loosen up. When the mind comes, offers you a tempting conclusion, relax. Huh? What do you say? In a moment, you already recognize the restful nature of this loosening up. Like one girl, she came the other day, she said that I was building up all this house of cards in my head and coming to satsang just collapsed it, which is the best news, best. You don't need to build a house of cards because you already have a temple of God in your heart.

Now what's happening is where will you go for that answer? Will you make a question out of it? You have to learn to just remain satisfied with not knowing. That's when true knowing can flower. That's when the change over the instrument can happen. If you have two cars and you clean only one and use only one, you claim to love the other one. That is just lip service. And in this case, the difference is between heaven and hell. Not necessary, not necessarily a place called heaven, but an existence which seems like heaven or an existence which seems like hell.

Suppose you do resolve it in your head. What is going to happen? You do resolve it in your head. What is going to happen? It's just freedom from the relief of the intellect poking for a few moments. You see, the intellect says, "What about this? What about that?" And then you feel like this about this and that about that. Feel like some relief. But then five seconds later, "But what about this?" And then we feed it. "Oh, this about this and that about that." And then that feels like the final answer. Then something else comes. There's no end to that game. Trust me, I've played it long enough. Just feeding vaporware to vaporware will not make vaporware go away. Feeding nothing to nothing will not make nothing go away.

Can all of us see that we are not able to grapple with what is in this moment? We are not able to capture the what-isness of it in this moment. Can we all see it or not? Not asking rhetorically, really asking. If you can really just spot that, then what must we do with our long-term stories if not one moment is graspable to us? Yes. But are you capturing the essence of what a fist is? Are you capturing the fact that we don't even know whether there is a fist or not? Whether there is existence or not, whether this is a dream or is this waking? The thing in itself cannot be known in this way. Who said exactly? His name says it all. What did he mean by the thing in itself? The essential, the essence, the whatness of it, the isness of it, whichever way you want to talk about it.

It is concept leading to more concept into more concept. What is a fist? Oh, it's the stubby palm and set of fingers. I don't have to repeat all this. What is a table, they said in Zen? Somebody said a flat slab and then four legs. What is a leg? Oh, it's a piece of wood. What is wood? It's like a tree, used to be a tree. Then you can say what is a tree or what is used to be. Give it up. Don't give it up. Let's look at it in a gentler way. Don't give up on it. I'm just asking, is there anything else there?

So there is—okay, let's not discount mental knowing. Let's not discount perceptual. Now there is one treasure chest, mental. Another treasure chest, conceptual mind, oh, perceptual mind. Is there a third one or no? Let's start with that question because we don't have to get into the debate of the viability of mental ideas or perceptual knowing. Let's first identify if there's a door number three. So if you—sorry, but if you identify the door number three and you say, "Actually, once I found this door, the other two seem like mouse holes" or something like that. You see in Tom and Jerry they used to. So should there be an aversion to that exploration if suppose that nothing is being attacked? Keep your mental knowledge, keep your perceptual knowledge, but it's just an exploration of is there a third kind.

So in this case then I would say then that aversion to that exploration would not be healthy because why should there be an aversion? Let's look at it that way. Now how to do that exploration is where the trouble starts because to look for door number three we have to turn away from one and two. Okay. So if I said to you, "I'll keep one and two safe for you. You feel free to explore and come back." Isn't that the only trouble? The voices behind door number one will say, "No, no, no, no." The event showing up in door number two will say, "I'm here. I'm exciting. I'm fun. Don't leave me."

But in the spirit of exploration, you say, "Okay, but I want to find out." Apparently thousands of those people who've written books and given sermons and all of that have said once you find that door, the two will not seem that attractive. Is it worth the exploration at all? And the fact of the matter is that no matter how much we stretch the instruments of one and two, we cannot find spirit in that. Then what are we doing in spirituality? You see, now it's highly unlikely that we will be the first ones who will make spirit come into door number one. After thousands and thousands of years and thousands and thousands of teachers and sages telling us it doesn't happen like that, you see. Then it's highly unlikely, not impossible. Everything is possible in consciousness but very unlikely. But why do we want to stack the bets against ourselves?

I can't even say honestly that I want to anymore. Whether love for truth, love for God, I don't know what truth is, what God is there. They're very different from how they're used in the world. And what am I loving that also? I'm very doubtful.

But what is encouraging for me is that you're here, still you'll be here. Yes, your thirst for truth is so strong. But so what I presented in the last ten minutes is quite rational. What can be the problem in looking and seeing if there's another mode? Not a word. You just have to be—but this is exactly everyone's story. So unless—most sorry—but unless most of us have been pushed into some corner, there are very few who willingly jumped into door number three. It's something happened, some suffering, some slap from life, something made us look, or just the wanting some stable truth in our life which can become suffering. You see, turns us to this. That's why it's not popular, satsang, and may it remain like that so we can get to the heart of the matter.

So much stigma regarding the mind, no? Like devil's advocate and pride and Maya.

Okay. So you leave all that, you leave that framing. It's more useful for others. You stay with this framing. Okay? What else? We have to just use some framing. Have I not said every day every word I'm speaking is rubbish? There's no truth to be found in the words themselves. So some framing inspires someone. Other framing inspires somebody else. You stay with the framing of what else is there. None of those claims are true to your conversation with that. We don't have to negate the other two doors to explore the possibility of the third door because I heard him say that—the sense I got was, "I don't want to negate these two." So don't. It's not just Neti Neti, it's not the only path.

Father, I'm saying because the first time when I met you in Rishikesh and you had said that just give me, just leave aside the "me" for some time and I'll give it back to you, and that kind of hit home, which is why I was sharing that. Just for a few moments, but you don't have to fully negate that if that—right, exactly.

Everyone has a unique path to spirit. Now if we are attracted to the truth and we can't help it, as much as we would like not to be, somehow it's seeded in us that we want the truth. No? So I've been there. So I'm very familiar with that. Now the mind will not like it. The perceptions may be signaling a lot of things to us, you see, but the question will keep pulling us in. Is there a third, more stable source of truth? Because has our life been that stable and attached to perception and to concept? Has our life been stable, full of love, peace, joy, contentment? So we must explore.

Father, um, when there is insight, post—when there is through grace insight and then the um, the pull to narrate, to label, to narrate to—um, that that's basically picking up the old tool again. It's immediately an alert that that's coming up again, that because I am now trying to label or narrate um, the truth, the whatever. So but in this, the word narration I feel is like a powerful um, like to be alert about narration because the narration means that there is a listener. And so when my mind is getting desirous of narrating, it's obviously gone into that there is somebody there to narrate to. Yes. Now at one level I think it, for me at least in my journey, it used to be like uh, unwittingly or subconsciously in a very—I was also trying to like wrap it up in words to actually narrate to another, if I was honest to myself. Um, but then okay, this—this also that after a while it's more subtle. It's not that you're not necessarily wrapping it up in words or story to tell someone, but you are actually doing it because of past momentum sometimes. A mind's habit, like you can't just be like you said, just sunbathing. You have to be like, "Come on now, let's call it a day and let's put a label." And so there's also this recognition that it's past momentum. And then sometimes it's also uh, feeling like it's probably the—the—yeah, that past momentum is like narrating to myself. Like that "me" needs to know at some level, that needs to know what has happened, right?

So it's a resurfacing of the old tool. What is the conclusion of my spiritual story? No? If you don't provide that to the mind, what have you been doing all these years?

So Satan—these words came um, one time that um, just that autobiography, you know, we have to drop the pen right there. Sentence is very um—thank you. I'm just looking that I don't know—say this is wood. Okay. Uh, so I don't know what this is. But is it—I don't know. You have to help me with this because I don't know how to ask this even. Uh, so is it that I don't know—now in my head right now, I don't know in my head that this is—but there is a play, like there's an—the third that you're speaking about that is very intelligent and it's—but yet I don't know. Like I don't know how to say—I don't know what I'm even asking, but helps move in our human conditioning, societal conditioning, parental conditioning. All of this, what has been glamorized is what we know in our heads.

Yeah, you pass exams on that basis. You are seen as intelligent or unintelligent on that basis. You see, can you answer the—can you point out the flags of all the countries, the capital of all the this thing, capitals, whatever all our subjects, history, geography, whatever we think we need. But and that has made us into this idea that without knowing in this way I don't know or I'm not intelligent, like my being is not intelligent in itself. Like I need to know this is a glass, you know, to know its utility is to drink, but I never needed to know the label to be able to drink from it.

So now what is that conceptual knowing brought to us and what is it taken away? That's the question. What is brought to us is a narrative of me. I'm able to encapsulate my life in statements and say this has happened, this happened like this, and this is what's happening now. So it seems like I'm able to get a grip or a handle on my existence, but what it's taken away in my eyes is much greater. You see, because I don't meet the presence of this one that is in my heart. I don't recognize the reality which is beyond this universe. You see, so for me it's not an equal exchange just for my story. If I have to give up on my reality, then that is not an equal exchange.

My life in statements and say, 'This has happened, this happened like this, and this is what's happening now.' So it seems like I'm able to get a grip or a handle on my existence, but what it's taken away in my eyes is much greater. You see, because I don't meet the presence of this one that is in my heart. I don't recognize the reality which is beyond this universe. You see, so for me it's not an equal exchange just for my story. If I have to give up on my reality, then that is not an equal exchange. But what's scary is that you feel like—in Hindi we say give you equal exchange right now—give me presence of God and the reality that I am the one, then I'm willing to give up on my mind and perception. But when it is said that we must stay empty and that result will come only when it is His grace, then that sounds scary, you see, because that sounds like a bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

But Father, that's not my experience. My experience is that even though I don't meet the entire reality yet, I'm able to be with the presence, you know. So that's a great—maybe I've come to that now after much... yeah, the human condition to let go of the label 'wooden chair' because without that it seems like we'll be lost if I don't even know this is a wooden chair. This is very radical what you're saying about the glass, about everything. It's really wow to the world. Isn't that like...

Yeah, it is inherent, but it's radical because we really feel we know everything. We know this is a room. We know this is a chair. We know this is my hand, and actually we don't know that. That's how it is. So remember the earlier days I used to put these videos? One was that McGurk effect and that phantom limb. McGurk effect, the phantom limb, and the 'What the Bleep Do We Know?' movie excerpt from that. So McGurk effect is if the lips are moving 'fa fa,' even if the sound is changed to 'ba ba,' you still hear 'fa fa.' There's a video—some of you haven't heard this—look it up on YouTube. It's called the McGurk effect. No, M-C-G-U... McGurk effect. So because in that case the brain takes the visualization to be the stronger instrument. So it produces the sound for itself and says, 'I don't want the dissonance, I will hear fa,' although the actual sound is 'ba.' So if you turn away from it you hear 'ba,' if you turn back to it you hear 'fa.' And even in spite of the fact that you know that this is happening, it continues the effect, you see. So whatever instrument we have is designed in such a way to make coherence out of things. So even if it is fundamentally incoherent, it'll make it coherent. I hear 'fa,' lip is moving 'fa,' I hear 'fa.' No problem.

So I don't know which part of evolution led to that or what part of my... I can't really say. The second is the phantom limb experiment where there's a plastic hand that's placed over here and your hand is over there. Then something is done after a while. Then somebody takes a pin and pokes the plastic one and you feel the pain. Feel the pain. Which nerve got pressed? We don't know. And then if you look at 'What the Bleep Do We Know?' there's this whole how light particles behave in the presence of an observer and in the absence of an observer. How they have dual quality when the observer is present and a particle motion when the observer is not present, or other way around, I'm not sure. So how the presence of the observer can change the inherent quality of an atom of light. So all of these things really help us to—I say help us—help us to question the nature of what this is, what is going on here. I love the title 'What the Bleep Do We Know?'; that's the theme of Satsang today actually.

So around this inability to know, all spiritualists, philosophers, all of those scientists, neuroscientists have made their own theories, no? And all those theories are fine. What is proposed in spirituality is that there is a higher mode of insight. There's a higher living truth which is found in the light of the spirit itself. That is what is called spirituality. So to access the spirit, we must at least in the interim let go of our attachment to the world and our knowledge about the world in our head, which is also not so far-fetched. You see, in the sense that if you're observing the wave nature of a particle, you see, then you have to leave the particle nature for some time to observe that. You see, you can't say, 'Oh, I'm open to the exploration of whether it's moving like a wave, but I am really, really going to impose my feeling that it'll operate like a particle.' You see, then your experiments will be biased.

Say it in a simpler way. So I'm just saying that if we—so I don't feel like it's that unfair to say that if I'm going to explore the third mode of knowledge, then I have to let go of my attachment to the other two. Because if you're convinced about the end already, then the experiment is not done in the true spirit. Through the third door, then only you can let go of the first two. If absolutely you don't have belief and you are doubtful about that belief, you're still stuck with the first two.

So the first two keeps playing with you. But again, even if you are in the third door, there also it will still play whether you're in the right door or not; that keeps playing with you.

Yeah. And in the outer world or in the living situation we are in, constantly you're made to feel you're dumb.

Yes.

So that's why this intellectual thing comes into play, that you have to be learned. You need to know this, you need to know that, and you're stuck in that. At the end of the day, you forget to go to the third door.

So what do we need to go to the third door? We need, like most humans need, some source of strength because everything seems so against that turning, you see. So whether that source of strength is love for the teacher or love for God, or whether that source of strength is credibility in somebody's words, you see, that source of strength can come in this way. But also the pathway is very—it's not oppressive. The pathway is not oppressive because we are given reassurances, we are given experiences of love. We are given the perfume of something which is beyond the universe. You see, all these things will come to reassure us, like what I call the Prasad—not the Darshan, but at least the Prasad is given. So it's not—God has not made it an oppressive path. But the fact is that to turn away from Maya takes something empty of conceptual belief. This not labeling, interpreting, narrating. It is that which causes the resistance. 'Isn't that like this, not like this, I want like this'—type of that causes the resistance. Yeah. Meeting perception openly, not shying away from any perception, because being empty of perception sounds like I must be in deep sleep constantly. So it's not empty that way. It's empty of labels, empty of interpretation. Exactly.

It's true. Actually, I know you didn't mean it that way, but in the—I know, I know you know, but I'm saying that—

No, no, I got that. I was just... but I'm saying that in the eyes of the world, it was a crazy project. It is a crazy project. But which project has not been crazy before the revelation? Every project has been crazy. When people said the world is flat, then somebody—who was it? Copernicus. Somebody said the world is spherical. He was called crazy. Was he killed? I think he was killed. In those days, they just kill anyone. 'I don't agree. Kill. I don't agree with you.' Copernicus was killed? No, somebody was... Galileo was... what is it? What is it? Not the center of the... so then how did he save himself? He retracted it. That's the best thing.

But in this world also you can be killed, like in many places now for saying that all religions are the same, you can be killed. So, no, I know you've answered this one million times, but so if you even if you—like when you said don't label it, whatever, right? I mean, I had the experience of not doing it and I saw whatever I saw, right? But why does it not stay? Why do we just keep falling back again and again into this same trap, be so stubborn and know the—

Kabir Ji said yes. That's what I want to say, you know, as if I put those two things... yeah, so great con artist. Doesn't give up that easy. So we don't have to be scared of exploring that third door. I mean, we don't have to be scared that if I go to the third, his mind will vanish. Popular culture, don't give up that easily. Huh? Thieves in popular culture. They made Oceans 11, then they could have stopped. No. No. They had to keep doing heists. So 12, 13, I don't know which number is on. So this thief doesn't get tired of thieving. You don't pick up that thing. You see, forget... what is that? Somebody asked Bhagwan, after enlightenment, how do we treat the others? So he said, 'What others?'

So to—I love that, like I have my mind's fantasy. I imagine a world where everyone lives in God's light and what a Ram Rajya... Ram Rajya is that nobody's talking to anybody. Just everyone sitting, no talking.

So what Jyoti Ma said, Father, so from door three to door one, two is never—it's never happening with me that, 'Okay, now I have to do X, Y, Z, so let me go to door one or two.' It's by Maya itself. Like, after going to door one and two, I realized that, 'Okay, we are far.' So it's not a choice, Father. I mean, sometimes it feels helpless that it's—I don't have a choice to be at door three or someone else is controlling.

Yeah, comes easy. It feels like that. That one trick is moment to moment. When you look at it in its life, in its entirety, then it seems like an impossible project. When you break it down into this moment, this moment, this moment, and in a way what is asked of us in this moment: turn inwards. Okay, we can't turn inward. Say God's name. Now the heart. We can't say it in the heart. Okay. Can we say it in our mouth? So it is asked of us, or ask yourself, 'Who am I?' So the trick is to break it into this moment. Otherwise, in the big entirety of life, it feels too difficult. Why not the couch? Not the couch. So how to lead a spiritual life? Because it seems like spirit is too distant, you see. But we can always follow the instruction we've been given to make the insides fertile for spirit to reveal itself.

And it is not said that when you forget, then do something about that. It is said that when you remember, then you return. You see, then the more you practice returning, the less you will forget. Kabir Ji said that he doesn't like his parents' house anymore. He wants to live in the house of the beloved. But that happened because he got a taste of living there, no? Initially everybody misses the parents' house. So, so that inspiration that has to come from somewhere, which is inspiration enough to allow us to not fear leaving the parents' house for at least a moment, and then moment to moment, moment to moment. Then there comes a point where we want to live in the house of our beloved. We don't want to live in the false realm of Maya.

Now, how do I know what is up and what is down in the two houses is different. The two houses is different because Kabir Ji said that he wants to live in the house where there are no pillars holding up the ceiling. There's no yesterday or tomorrow. When nothing comes and goes ever, lamps... what is that lamp? The light of the Atma within this temple of God is what he's describing. So if spirit is a possibility for us to meet, we must not exchange that possibility for anything else. Spirit is nothing but God. The spirituality is the way of God. There is no such thing as a godless spirituality, as much as people in the modern age have tried to create one. And I can understand the reasoning behind that also because there's so much exploitation which has happened in the name of God. I understand why we would try to create a godless spirituality. To deny God's presence itself is spirit is not—is not going to get us anywhere in spirituality. You're the one who says most—can't hear.

Spirituality is nothing but God. Spirituality is the way of God. There is no such thing as a godless spirituality, as much as people in the modern age have tried to create one. And I can understand the reasoning behind that also, because there's so much exploitation which has happened in the name of God. I understand why we would try to create a godless spirituality. To deny God's presence itself as spirit is not going to get us anywhere in spirituality.

You're the one who says most—

Can't hear. Oh yeah. [laughter] The annoying one behind there. No. [laughter]

When you say that we must not—you mean every moment, right?

Every moment, or every moment that we remember. There are some things that are light. Maya does win quite often, but when we remember, we must turn back to the heart with full speed. You get what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes there are habits that seem to pull too strongly, even if we realize that we are not letting God pull us stronger. And even in the moment, we don't hear this voice. You're saying it is lukewarm?

It is lukewarm. A simple line, 'God is here,' can be very cold. 'Yeah, we know, what else you got?' Or it can be, 'Ah, thank you for that reminder. It's peaceful now.' You see, that is still lukewarm. But just 'God is here'—oh, that is strength. I'm not able to convey it in words, but your inner feeling is just so deep that the Lord of the universe is with you.

Sometimes I wish I could leave all habits because I feel that when I'm engaging, I'm not able to commune with God in those moments.

So your intention to break out of that will feed the fire to stay with God more.

Can you repeat again?

The intention to break out of that mold will feed the fire to stay with God more. Nobody's able to do it fully. Am I living most of my moments in my life in the full joy of the fact, full remembrance of the fact, full turning towards that fact that God is here? No. Is it that this is my intention? Yes. And my intention is giving it the fire to grow slowly, slowly, slowly.

Is there a balance to be reached? Because I tend to feel that there is nothing like a balance to be reached, but that in moments of old habits that I have, I need to force myself or discipline myself to come out of them.

Okay, maybe I should have understood the question first, but let me answer this point from how I understand, and you can correct my understanding. The question of balance is usually misplaced, I feel, because it's like saying, 'I had a bowl of wheat, you see, and do I have to leave my bowl of wheat once I have the full sack full of wheat?' In the world's idea, what happens is that you must keep your mind. I saw one interaction about this with another spiritual teacher also, but I saw in that there's a sort of exclusive idea of intelligence. While we are going towards God's intelligence, we must not leave the human intelligence, which is a very popular and very reasonable-sounding thing. But what I have found is that God's intelligence is the superset; it's like the bigger circle that contains the smaller circle of what the mind can contain. So why do I need to hold on to that? If I have the full sack of wheat, then what will I do with a bowl full of wheat?

I understand what you're saying now. And I think the question goes more to—I think I'm not being sufficiently clear.

Do you have to balance which two variables?

Disciplining myself out of habits that I don't want to engage with anymore, and just relaxing a little bit and not being so hard on myself and finding God even in those moments.

Both are sounding the same to me.

Okay.

Because what we are talking about is relaxing away to be disciplined in remembering to relax.

When I say discipline, I mean just go cold turkey on, you know, meaningless screen time for instance, or stuff like that.

Whatever helps you. What we are calling 'relax' is just open and empty. So remain open and empty in a disciplined way. But that is a very relaxed place that we come to.

Can you say that again?

So it is not exchanging one mental operation with another. We open and empty up. We were talking about this: that if that becomes a position, a spiritual position, then it can be again very oppressive, you see. It's like saying, 'Remember that your Mother is holding her hands up and you can fall in her lap anytime.' So does it take practice to remember that? Yes. You see, but is it relaxed? Yes. Does it always feel like the turning is a process of relaxation? It doesn't feel like that because our attachments are very strong in the world. So to turn away from them can seem like the most difficult thing we will do. You see, but actually, if you were to look at that process objectively, it is moving to a very deep relaxation.

Yes. When you do move, then it feels like a deep breath.

Even the step towards it is to come to a more relaxed place. There is never an increase in the intensity when we are turning towards God. It's always a calming down. It's always a letting go, letting go, letting go.

Perhaps because there is also judgment involved, like 'I should' or 'I shouldn't be doing this' at this point.

I notice that you're just like that. Then, when we're like that, we want to be right and we want to engage and we want to win. So we find it very difficult to snap out of that. You see, but the whole process is to come to an ease of being.

And that's it. Does what you're saying now also imply that when we come to that ease of being, it is almost irrelevant what happens with the action that we are taking? Or that probably even God would lead us to move on to something more productive, like praying or taking a walk or doing some work or something else?

Because of the complexity of that—even if you look at something like, I don't know why we're being so scientific today, but if you're looking at something like the butterfly effect where the smallest movement can change the whole universe in some way. Therefore, in that deep letting go, we find that there's an innate intelligence which is called God's will which moves our every step. So we can surrender very safely. So the first step is to let go of the closeness right now. Not the whole story or the whole action, but this moment. How will we heal? How will we heal? Okay, let's ask a simpler question. How do we rest? Can we create rest for ourselves? We can sit on the couch. We can lie down on the most comfortable bed. We can buy the best pillow. You see, but deep sleep comes from a different place, from a higher place. Something pulls us in. You see, if it is not God's will to pull us in, we may do whatever, but sleep won't come. The same way, as we let go, we make ourselves available to let go. But He pulls us in and our faculties become one-pointed in what we call the heart. All our layers fall into our heart. There, in the innocence of our being, in the ease of our being, is also the innocence of our being. We are open to receiving from the Holy One in our heart. It's a very open, receptive space. Just let go. So it must never lead to any additional stress. The steps towards this are not about creating additional stress. It's about letting go, letting go. Of course, in the mind, the narrative will put it like that—that this is very difficult, very stressful. It may seem so, but we just have to be observant to what is happening in the layers of our existence.

Yeah. And sometimes I refuse in those moments of getting caught by bad habits. I notice I refuse.

Everybody's conditioning is bad habits. Bhagavan called it Avidya, ignorance. So that pool of conditioning is our grooves that we've made in our lives to turn towards wanting to be right, to turn towards anger, to turn towards winning. All of these are grooves that life has conditioned us to have. To break out of those grooves and to remember to fall into God's lap when these things happen takes a lot of practice. You see, because we have to let go of the old pattern. That's why I've been saying that focused prayer is very important, because during that time you can actually practice letting go of your mind's temptation to pull you out. And then when it happens in the world, you can deal with it easier than you would without practice. That's true. So I don't know if this part of it went unanswered: Do we need to be concerned about what happens to others around us? God is the best gift we can give to them. Our being with God is the best gift we can give to them, even if they don't yet say that.

Yeah. That becomes clearer and clearer when He shows us how useless we are other than when we come back to Him, and we can't really do much without Him.

But His showing is never in any oppressive way. His showing us is always in a loving way. So we always feel reassured even if the guidance seems to be stern. It is always encapsulated in so much love that you feel that you're very deeply loved. Even that stern guidance may be coming from the heart, which itself is rare. Right? This is a very sweet, soft, tiny step. The Atma is more like a Montessori teacher. [laughter] Really, Atma will not say, 'Oh, this that you have to do, that you did something.' That is the way of the mind. Atma says, 'Okay, step this way a little,' in a very loving way.

Yeah. Notice that judgment is never in the equation of the guidance. Yeah. It's more like loving. I really want to say this out, that my heart is beating really fast right now. Good. I feel like I can speak in front of everyone, like I've taught hundreds of people. I've gone and spoken in front of everyone. I have some kind of an image or some kind of a thing which I want to say out. I don't want to keep it inside and I'm not able to right now. I feel like I suffer from—I don't know, it's like a consciousness, you know, the self-consciousness or some—I don't know what it is. It's here and I want to say it here. I can go and speak and I can teach and I can speak in front of anyone, I feel, and I have, and I've seen that. So I used to feel like it's all the time there. So, it's very selective for me, but I want to say it out because I need to say it out. I feel like I can't hold it in anymore. I don't want to. And it's so baseless. It's so—I don't know what it is. I don't know. I just want to say it.

Is that right now also because some of your kids are here? Do you feel?

No, it could add to that. It's definitely like it can add to that, but it's always there. Father, I've told you this before also. And maybe because now they come here, there's a hesitation to say, which I don't want to carry. Father, I want to be able to say what I have to say and be your child. I don't want to show anything to anyone. Like, what will I do if ten people feel I'm smart? I'm not going to find God, you know? So, I don't care about that. I don't want to care. It's not like I don't care about that. I seem to care, then not care, then care and not care. And I've stopped myself from sharing many times, like with different excuses, and I'm not able to say many things openly because it's filtered through that, you know, and—

What will they think of me? What will people think of me?

'What will people think of me' is there. And I've said all my life, 'I don't care,' 'I'm so rebellious,' 'I'm so out of the box' and all that. All rubbish. I really care. I see when I come here because here is like—I'm under the laser light, I feel. Here I can't lie. Here I can't pretend or act in very smart ways in front of you. So this is God's grace.

Yeah, that attachment to image which breeds up because of whatever conditioning we've had in the past—to get that into the light to be exposed and burned is beautiful grace.

I've said all my life, 'I don't care, I'm so rebellious, I'm so out of the box' and all that—all rubbish. I really care. I see when I come here, because here is like I'm under the laser light. I feel here I can't lie. I can't pretend or act in very smart ways in front of you. So this is God's grace.

Yeah. That attachment to image, which breeds up because of whatever conditioning we've had in the past, to get that into the light to be exposed and burned is beautiful grace.

Because what really pokes me is that this thing forms a kind of a layer in front of me through which I'm not able to ask for the reason that I'm here, you know? I don't care about the other effects of this, which could be like a contraction inside or a validation or all of that. All that is okay; all that is also like suffering. But what really makes me...

You said it stops you from being a child with your Father. Here to find God in your heart.

Yeah.

And Maya pulls this trick about, 'If I ask this question, they will wonder, you know, what are we doing following her? She doesn't know this question' or something.

Yeah. Rubbish. Not just the kids, Father, it's with the kids, okay. It could be like, you know, 'She will think like this, she will think.' And I use—it's like that, Father. I don't want to lie. I don't want to give excuses. I don't want to coat it. It is like that, you know? And I hate the fact that I miss my chance. I feel like this is—I hate it. I detest it. I hate it. And I just—I can't explain that pain. That's painful, Father.

It's very good to just have this feeling to drop anything that gets in the way of God. It's very...

I don't want to be sorted, you know. I don't want to carry like, 'I know this, I know that.' I don't want to carry all that anymore. Like...

That's how we return to innocence.

I don't want to know anyone, you know, like—you know what I'm saying? I want to come to a place where I don't know anyone in the way that I know them. You know, how do I...

But what I'm saying is that don't even make this—empty even of this 'I want to' or 'I don't want to.' They are two sides of the same coin, you see. And the mind feels uncomfortable in one position, which itself creates—then it creates the opposite position.

I'm just saying it to express. I'm not like—yeah.

Saying that just that neutrality the mind cannot fathom. Just 'am'.

You know what triggered it? Every time I ask a question or I say something in Satsang, no, after that I have like an after-effect of it. Post-mortem. And like, 'What am I doing?' Then I feel like, you know, I want to say it out—and I would never say this, and I want to say it today—I feel like, you know, my go-to is like maybe Jotika, okay? I feel very close to her, so I can go and I say that. It's in a very twisted way it will say that, 'Joe, I didn't—what I said was okay, no?' Like, did I say something like a validation? Validation because something is so threatened, it's so like—I can't even make sense of this. You will have to help me. It's crazy. And today also, like after I spoke to you, I felt like you spoke to somebody else. I don't know, maybe he took the mic and I'm not able to hear them for 20, 30 minutes. And that is so—and then it leads to that, 'Let me ask Jotika, let me ask Radha, Ratna.' I would ask them, or Jotima. These are my go-tos. I would ask them something, I will do and I will ask...

Get some nod of approval.

Yeah. 'You were good.' Yeah. Yeah. And when my mind was proposing that, 'It's okay, it's okay, you just go and ask them. It's okay to—you just after Satsang, no, like call Radha or call Ratna, call Jotika, one of them.' Like, you know, just me—anyways, I'll meet them for dinner. So ask them that. Like, this is what it proposed to me and I felt like, 'What the hell am I doing?' Like, it's unbearable. It's happened so much that it's unbearable now. I have to give it to you.

In the light of prayer and the light of our sadhana, all these things get exposed to her. But a lot of these things we've taken to be a normal part of life. You see, now we're realizing how much of a constriction in our heart it makes; it keeps us away from God's life. So it has to be exposed, burnt in this way. It's a very good process.

So what is the antidote?

The same one. 'He is here' is quite an all-encompassing antidote.

Why do I have to pretend like I'm so sorted? Like, why can't I have issues too? Tell me. I'm also looking—what am I so—like if I look at myself, I'm quite stupid and I know where I am, and I know you and I know your greatness, and I know myself compared to that. It's for me it's like that, Father.

Very good to recognize and to be putting out in the open. It's very good.

What is so great, Father? Just arrogant. Just a mask like...

Just see yourself without any of this. Right now, I think to some extent, how free we are without these mental burdens—'You have to look this way, people have to respect you, people have to like you'.

And I don't even see it like I'm constantly in guarding of this, you know? I'm constantly trying to guard and constantly trying to like—that I don't want. Next, we just come like the littlest child in Satsang.

Happy, free, Father's house. Nothing to worry, relax.

This is hard for me. I want to say it because it's easy for me to be like that anywhere here. I don't know what happens, like, maybe outside. Am I faking it outside or am I—what happens, Father?

No, it's just that spiritual vasana.

I can't see it right. It's so hard to accept.

Relax. I know it's easy for me to say, but that's what the project is, no? Then for now, stay with God in your heart. Automatically your outer expression will take care of itself. To stay with God in your heart, you have to be innocent as you're seeing. So as you're learning to be innocent in God's light, all this which is extraneous to you is being thrown out, is being vomited out.

Yeah. To go.

Can you tell me again slowly? Yes. As you're making your way to living in your heart, all that gets in the way, all the blockages will get cleared out.

It's getting clear.

So many times to get cleared, they have to be brought out in front of everyone. See, because we built it up about how we want to be in front of everyone. So grace makes it happen in front of everyone, so we lose that self-consciousness, you see, and we learn to be courageous in that—to be able to expose ourselves and be humble. So this is a humble statement which is very good.

Because I knew I can go home and tell you this. I just couldn't keep it in. I'm going to say it out every time it comes. I have to say it out. I can't die like this. Like, it's a death for me to be like this. I know that it's really harmful. It's poisonous. It's just saving myself. I don't want to save myself now. I'm not going to save myself. I can't be under this foot of this ego. This one—like, this one is hard for me. When the false is burning, it has gone.

And it's very like—it comes, it'll hide, come and hide from this one. It comes like that and then it'll just—like right now it'll not dare, but it will dare later like that. It is—and then it'll really build like a good one. Good alluring one.

Yeah. Story.

Good haze. Very good protection for itself.

I hate it. I hate this ego. Just...

Keep turning it. And know that all our fears are unfounded. God is so gracious. He only knows how to give us more. He doesn't take anything away.

I see that now. You know, I see my true place more clearly and then I can see this false one also more clearly. I feel this because I can see like I'm the one who was not interested in this world at all and I have no interest in it—like in my nature is no interest in this world—and then I fall into this which is completely opposite and it's unbearable, you know? Then it gets like—it doesn't come together at all.

Yes. When we are in the false one, then the true one is unbearable.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to hear about that.

It's not my problem.

When you spoke to me before this, when I asked you a question and I was—my mind was shouting and saying that, 'Why didn't he answer your question directly? What did he—' and Jotika, 'What did he say to me?' You know, because I was coming out of this mask, Father. I was—you know, it doesn't allow me to hear. Eight, whatever, eight years I've not been able—sometimes I've been able to hear, most times I'm not able to hear. It's really serious. I feel I really have to say it before I again spend another eight years and I might not be able to get over it, Father, so easily. I'll keep exposing it.

To expose it, and grace is so much to bring it out with integrity like that and expose whatever pride we're hiding.

It really made my heartbeat like above a hundred and really I was like, 'I have to get it out.' And it was doing everything to stop me. I'll go rest a bit. My body is—what the...