That Which Is Most Obvious - 27th November 2020

One problem is just when I start speaking, I don't know what I'm going to say.

That's good. Okay.

Okay, so now, two weeks back I spoke to you about a certain frustration that was developing, and you addressed me to go back to Invitation and listen to Invitation. And if I'm sleeping and get everything, do it again. What happened after that? Well, after that, well, the sleeping keeps happening and well, I try again. Yeah, so you advised me to, in case I sleep, get up and do it again is what you said. And I tried and I... well, multiple things. One, I figured out that sleeping has become kind of an imposter already. It's like almost like I will take the phone, get ready to sleep, and then listen to it. It was almost like that. So that helped a lot. Now when I'm not sleeping, it's like drastically lots and lots of distractions. It's like almost like every single word, every single next second is in my mind already. So it's like I'm waiting for next, so it's like already predicted. So kind of again, I'm in a different soup, something like that. Well, I'm carrying on and doing what you asked me to do, but I'm just doing it second time and half a second. I can't do it the first time or any time.

That you do it and you don't sleep, what is your discovery? What happens?

Is about 10 minutes purity is guiding us to space or whatever nameless state is at that point of time. Then there is definitely all that is gone. I'm doing some judgment and evaluation and looking for things and things like that.

So let's pause for a moment. I'm not really asking about what is appearing, no? What is appearing and disappearing, I'm not even asking about the state, you see. I'm asking about the discovery that you make about yourself.

I haven't made any.

So when Guruji is asking all the questions, then what are you saying?

A different route is taken just before that. When Guruji is asking about... I'm not even sure what what is happening to which bank responded. No, I don't respond to it. I'm pretty sure I don't respond to it. And not in... well, I can respond to it, but that I know is from the mind. I know that is a written book exams, exam writing, thanks. Yeah, because definitely I know the answers. I know every time it happens the same way.

Let's try a live experiment then. Let's try a live experiment. So if you were not to be concerned about anything the mind was saying, not to be concerned with any thought that is coming, and you are unconcerned with any perception that may come or not—so not just the thought but also any perception that may come—and you're also not worrying about what you are going to get out of this for just one moment, not concerned with any of these auxiliary things for just a moment, can you check and see who is aware of all of this? Simplest. It is not the most complex answer, but the simplest answer. It is not the most complex discovery, but the simplest discovery. Is this perception that is being heard right now, are you aware of it or no?

Yeah, obviously. Yes, yes, yes.

What makes it obvious? Is it learnt knowledge? Is it learnt knowledge? You had to remember that when you were three years old you were told that you are the one hearing? It is not like that, no?

No, it's immediate.

Is there a perception of this 'I' that is aware?

Huh? No, not even perception. I need to think of that now.

Yes, because if there was a perception, you could have said by now that 'I have finally located the I and this is the shape of it' or 'this is the size of it, this is what it is like,' isn't it? You see? And yet at the same time you say it is obviously I am aware. So this obviousness is what everybody, including you, seem to be seeking with a lot of effort. That which is the most obvious, okay? You see? And why does that happen like that? Because your mind cannot fathom this obviousness of self-knowledge. You see, Atma Gyana is too subtle for the mind. So it says, 'But you just said obviously, you didn't really mean it. Now you are stuck with that thing.' Awesome. You see? What is your actual discovery? It will tell you, 'What is your actual discovery? Show me.' You see? And it can only fathom phenomenal shape, sizes, colors, time, space, all of these things, you see. But that moment of innocence where you said, without being too spiritual or Advaita about it, in that moment you just said like a child, 'Obviously it is me.' You see? Now it is not make-believe, isn't it? It is not something that you're just doing make-believe that it must be me, therefore I better say it's me. It is clear.

When I said obviously it's me, it was pretty obvious. But now that you have asked, if this is not different... okay, okay.

So that space where it is not obvious, don't bother with that space. You see, whatever it may be saying, that 'I'm very confused, this I, I had it for a moment, I lost it all,' don't bother with it. Just again I'll ask you the same thing: who's aware of the perception of this voice now?

Pretty obvious, actually. It is very obvious.

This is all that anyone is seeking. This is your only discovery that you can make which is non-conceptual and non-perceptual. Can it be this simple? No, because it is simpler.

Is the feeling of something that's missing in this whole...

That is in the realm of the changing. We said when we started, for a moment we will not bother with all that is changing, okay? You see? We will bother with it later, don't worry, it's not going anywhere. For now, just enjoy this. Let all that is changing, let it change. Let it be effortlessly. You've tried to control it for too long. Let it play out. If the feeling jump around like this, like this, let it jump around. If your thoughts go crazy saying 'what's happening, what's happening,' let it happen. If everything goes quiet, let it be. Don't bother even with that. Doesn't matter what is appearing. So all the inquiry, all the Invitation, all of it, all the tools that the great masters have given us are just to point to this obviousness. Now if you ask any question from the Invitation, you will see that the response will be clear. That which is hearing, with that which is aware of the hearing, does it come and go? Does it change?

I really have to think.

Easy, don't think about it.

Yeah, if I have to think about it... don't worry, just leave it alone. Maybe I had to just leave it for some time because thinking is coming from like floods.

Yeah, but don't worry so much when thinking comes, because the idea of this is not to make the mind become fully quiet. It may become that way on its own, but we must not have that expectation. Okay?

So now there's a person like, 'What should I do next?'

Yes, in a way it is 'What should I do now?' also. In a way it is, 'So what does it mean for me? What does it mean? What is the discovery really imply? What have I really found? How will it change my life? How do I deal with this?' All of that is irrelevant, like I said initially. To start with, don't have any expectation out of this.

That's some food, actually.

Yes, exactly.

One last question. Yes, when I... if I listen to the Invitation again, should I... I get greatly distracted, that it happens most of the time. Should I continue after getting really distracted or just... do I feel like...

Well, if you just allow Guruji's voice to do the work, you see, without becoming so this thing that 'I have to find the answer, what is it pointing to,' you see? If you take that position, then the mind can poke you easily, you know? Because if you are like 'I have to look over there,' then the mind will keep poking, you see, 'Look here, look here, look.' You see? But if you're a little more open and you're just doing it in a bit of an open and surrendered mode, you see, as you just put it on and just remain with it in a simple open way, the voice is directing you very clearly, you see. And you're not obsessed that 'I have to look this way, my attention has to be this way,' then you'll find that in your openness some fleeting this so-called distractions may come and may talk about some email you have to send or some TV show that you have to watch or something like that. But it's okay. You won't be so like, 'Don't come! You're a distraction, Mr. Distraction, go away!' See, this always happens. All this kind of narrative is not helpful then.

Yeah, those are the kind of narratives that come.

Yeah, so don't bother with those. Just put it on and just bow down and say, 'Guruji, it's your problem. Whatever you do is fine with me. I will be with you as much as I can. The rest is your business to take care of.'

Okay, I'll be fine. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. So we'll come to Georgina in a minute. But this obviousness, I hope none of you felt that it was just for Prahash, that conversation, because that is fundamentally all that I'm saying. Everything else is just a setup for that, you see, to give you that instant discovery, instant recognition, which is the most obvious and yet the most missed, the most neglected if not missed. That discovery of your Self which is beyond your manifest self, the source of all that is manifest, you see. So if some of you feel like you are a bit sleepy when we are having that conversation, I will repeat for you what I said. So I said to you, now you are aware that you are hearing this voice, isn't it? Isn't that the most obvious thing? It is so apparent. Now unless you're too caught up in like mental spirituality or Advaita, like you have too many concepts about this—like if I ask a child they'll say, 'Of course I'm hearing this voice,' you see, 'Of course I'm hearing it.' So we have to return to that kind of innocence. Let go of all what we think we have understood and learned and all the Advaita thing about, 'Oh, but I don't know who that is, so how can I really say it is me?' and blah blah blah blah blah. Leave all that. You see, you're hearing this voice. Whether you like it or not, you're here for this moment. You can leave of course, but you see, you're hearing this voice. You're aware of this hearing, you see. You are aware of this hearing. How are you aware of you? So sight you are aware of, you're seeing this guy sitting in front of you. This voice you're aware of. Maybe some other sounds you're aware of. You may smell something in your house, you're aware of that. You see, touch, taste, all of these things you are aware of. How are you aware of the one that is aware of all of this? And whether that is you or not also will determine in a moment, you see. But how are you aware of the one that is aware of all of this? Do you see it? Is it using sight? Just we'll follow the western convention of no, so no is like this and yes is like this, okay? So, are you aware of it with sight? Do you touch it with touch? Do you smell it? You taste it? So none of these, and yet you are aware. Do you have to think about it to become aware? Is there any other discovery like this which means no thought or perception? So as Shri Krishna said in the Gita, that which is subtler than the intellect, subtler than all perception, that is the Self. And we can't even say subtle; action, subtle or gross doesn't apply. It just, just sheer obviousness. Now if you don't want anything from it, from yourself, then you are free. Now if you say, 'But what does it mean for me?' then you inserted the monkey 'me' back into the picture, the one that doesn't actually exist, and then you're playing like you're deluded again. That's all that this game is. If you say, 'But I started this journey because I wanted this' and...

Intellect subtler than all perception, that is the Self. And we can't even see subtle action; subtle or gross doesn't apply. It's just sheer obviousness. Now, if you don't want anything from it, from yourself, then you are free. Now, if you say, 'But what does it mean for me?' then you inserted the 'monkey me' back into the picture, the one that doesn't actually exist, and then you're playing like you're deluded again. That's all that this game is. If you say, 'But I started this journey because I wanted this, and this was to come, I was promised this in the marketing,' you see, then forget. Okay, forget all spiritual marketing, forget all promises. And I promise you that what you are receiving is much more than what is promised. But if you look at it through the lens of perception and if you look at it through the lens of concept, then you will always feel like, 'But that is nothing. That is nothing.'

How many times I have seen this now. When we share the most pristine discovery, many times the mind is yelling, 'But that is nothing!' Or it yells to you another more devious thing many times, saying, 'You may be pretending in front of Ananta, but actually you are just taking it; you haven't found anything.' But it is just not true. It is impossible to miss, so don't buy that sneaky voice. You see, it says, 'You are looking all nice and holy in front of him, but actually you know, you know you haven't found it.' You see, all this is lies. It's sheer lies. All that happened all day, yes, and it's like, 'Why did you say not obvious now?' Exactly, you see. Now it's questioning it, no? It's questioning it: 'How it is obvious? You gave him the wrong idea. He's thinking you're more free than you actually are. Now who will help you?' All this kind of nonsense.

But no matter how many times we do this, it is going to remain as obvious. Now, with any pointing, what happens is that the mind builds up quite a few defenses against it over a period of time. You see, that's why the Master's expression also keeps changing, evolving along with the resistances that do develop. So sometimes I may just click, click, click. Sometimes I may say, 'Who is aware of the perception of this hand?' Sometimes I may say, 'What do you know when you know nothing?' All that is just countering your mind's objections, the doubts. So remember that when you are, at least when you are in the inquiry or you are in the openness of self-discovery, then if you refer to the mind for the answer, then the mind will always present to you a limited answer. Don't go to the limited for the unlimited. If you're looking for tomatoes, then don't go digging under the ground. To go to the mind for the Self is a folly, and to be concerned actually about what the mind is saying about your attempt or effort is also a folly.

Don't expect the mind to give you a freedom certificate. Then where will you go? Do you have to go somewhere? Like, if you don't go to the mind, then, to say it poetically, I can say stay in your heart or stay with the divine presence. But that 'stay' is something that is already there. That way, many take on the 'stay' to be something that you have to do, you see. So 'stay with the truth' or 'remain as the Self' is just a pointing for you to not go with the false. That's all. Okay, good, good. Let's hear Georgina. Hello, Father.

Hello, Father. Hello, India. Can you hear me?

Yes.

Okay, I think you just answered my question because that is the only answer I have. Yes, yes, I can ask anyway, maybe. Okay. Um, yeah, so it seems that when this one is doing housework, things around the house, is when the mind is the most active, just providing thoughts about what needs to be done next and just organization, all that kind of things. And it's when I'm least present. And I have seen in pure presence that when I'm doing those kinds of activities, even if the biggest event is coming tomorrow, it's nothing compared to this. However, most of the time that's not the experience at those moments, just those specific activities.

Yes, okay, good. So this is a question which is quite natural, and many have this kind of feeling because you feel that in Satsang, or when you're listening to something devotional or watching something else, then you may feel like it's okay. But when you're involved in activity, then it seems like you have lost—not just any kind of activity, because when I'm interacting maybe, or when I'm doing seva or work, it doesn't happen so much. It's just mostly around maybe housework, I think.

Yeah, okay. So let me ask you and see, we come to the same answer. Yes? What is the best thing that you can do right now to help the one that is going to play out in some time? Because that should be the question, isn't it? Obviously, we cannot transport ourselves to the time where you're doing the housework and help that one. So you're saying, 'What is it that we can do now?' you see, so that the one who is doing the housework later is not so affected by thought. He can only help you right now, no?

Okay. I can be open now.

Yes. Yeah, the best gift you can give to that one who will appear later is for you to be fully, fully open and empty right now. Yes, that's as simple as it can get, you see. Because then the mind's tricks of taking you into the past or into the future don't work, because you say, 'Okay, that me that happened yesterday, it may happen tomorrow, but what is it that I can do right now to help that one which may show up tomorrow?' It brings the focus back to openness and emptiness right here, right now, you see. Otherwise, what's happening is that in the conditioning which may show up tomorrow, you see, we are allowing that to bother us even today. So not only may something speculatively happen tomorrow, but even right now we are only concerned about that, and hence we are already mentally there and not really here. And this is a very common trump card that the mind can play, you know, keep saying, 'Yes, yes, you're okay now, but what about...?' You see, some will say business meeting, some will say housework, some will say something else that may keep changing, you know. Some may say, 'When my relationship is bad,' some may say, 'When my health is bad.' Whatever the occasion may be, it is just a trick of the mind to take you away from your magnificence at this moment. Okay? You see, if you meet God now, then God will take care of the one tomorrow.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Father.

Good. Okay, Atma Jyoti has a hand up. You can come, my dear.

Hello, Father.

Hello. Can you see me?

Always the same style, no? The silhouette at least, something.

Yeah, this is the pure presence.

Yes. Um, Father, this is so cool. So, um, what is being experienced here right now and lately, um, like a lot of fear. And it feels like it's like being built up throughout the time. Like, I don't know, some something—you know me a little bit and you know that I have quite a dark mind, let's see, like always something negative. But usually it comes like 'me, me, me, me' inside, right? And it feels like since this threat inside doesn't work so much, it kind of started to—it feels like threatening me, something like that. Yeah, it's no longer—if you know what I mean. Like even a couple of weeks ago, I was just like sitting in the morning and just listening to Robert Adams' Satsang and just following him, and it just came like energy in itself, like so threatening. Like, I feel like my body and mind—and I got so scared. And even to speak about it, I feel scared. And it's so ridiculous because I understand that there has to be someone to be threatened. And okay, and this kind of this attack, like with the time I spoke to someone from Sangha and I was like, 'Hey, let's not make a story out of it.' Okay, I was too scared, but then I started to invite it: 'Come, eat, do whatever, just come.' Yeah, and it didn't revenge. And now I'm starting like—but sometimes I sit, I want to look at it and I don't know, it comes.

But when you welcomed it and said, 'Take what you can take'?

Yeah, but I was so scared. But either way, it was just like, 'Okay, whatever.'

Very good, very good. Happy to hear that. So then it diminished?

And now, well, there is something like a belief that let's say that it's true that it can do something. Like even let's see, some adversity is happening in life and it feels like this energy is doing this because I'm starting to see mind more as not as a part of me or as my voice, I don't know, but more as some entity in itself. Just, I don't know, even yesterday I was sitting and I was like, 'Okay, I'm having a mind attack. Oh, this is such a horrible situation, this is a mind attack.' And I'm sitting with this and I'm looking and I'm seeing that very clearly, that for someone to have a mind attack, you have to be in time and space very clearly.

Well, do you mean that for the mind to show up you have to be in time and space? So do you mean that to feel that, you have to feel its effect? To feel its effect, it has to be. And by effect, do you mean that something like an emotion or some sensation, is that what you mean by effect?

Yes, because it doesn't come only with thoughts, it comes more with the—

Yeah, so if in the play of this Leela, sometimes what I call the one-two punch can come. So the one-two punch is the mind is saying, 'You're not worthy, you're just wasting time, you're not free,' all of that, and there's a set of contractions and fear, whatever, all that is playing out, you see. Then because both of them play out, does that automatically mean that you are taking yourself to be something that you're not? No, you see. Sometimes I used to call it Donkey Kong Level 2, no? Because sometimes Donkey Kong will throw a coconut, sometimes it will throw a barrel, and those are easy levels. But when it throws both, then it can feel like this is too much, it's just too much, you see. But it's going to happen. You see, it's going to happen as you, in a way, level up. It is going to happen that the mind uses those opportunities. It becomes like guerrilla warfare where it waits for some sensational activity to be there and then it starts playing that game. And then it can feel like because both these things are together, therefore now I must be falling into the trap of taking myself to be the person or something like that. So I'm very happy you said no. So if it is clear that it is no, then what is the trouble?

No trouble, but I feel like—yeah, no trouble. I feel like it will take time to actually grow roots in it, this—

What, this? Maybe. Yes, in a way what you say is true; in a way it is also not true, because you're completely rooted in it right now. And yet I know what you mean, because in the play of life it does seem to play in this time-based way. So I can understand that sort of maturity and thing deepening. And I hope you're also saying it the same way in the recognition that what is now is fully full and fully complete and nothing missing. And yet, because you have experience now of how life plays out, you see that there can be a deepening in maturity that is constantly happening as well. Yes, and we come to a place where this kind of thing, which may be very contradictory sounding to the mind, actually doesn't bother us anymore. They're both, which can be seemingly different or opposite even, can coexist and neither—we are not attached too much to it. So just to humor the Father here, so if there was something that could show up right now in the phenomenal play that could actually attack you, what would that be? What would that be?

Nothing. Nothing. Nothing, even if everything came at the same time.

Yes. But then—

If I feel like if I say that, I see it, I truly see that it's nothing, but yeah, there's—

When you see it, what happened? Does it feel like some arrogance or something?

No, no, not at all. But it feels like the fear, even like more like—like it's threatening, I don't know. But I see that it's nothing.

Okay, so you say, 'Yes, an empty threat, and I'm here with you. Let's see what can happen.' You see, what can come in this entire phenomenal play which is actually for you?

Thing came at the same time, yes. But then if I feel like if I say that I see it, I truly see that it's nothing but... yeah, there's when you see it, what happened? Does it feel like some arrogance or something? No, no, not at all. But it feels like the fear, even like more like... like it's threatening. I don't know, but I see that it's nothing.

Okay, so you say yes, an elected threat. And I'm here with you. Let's see what can happen. You see what can come in this entire phenomenal play, which is actually for you in reality nothing but a mosquito, you see? But it can seem so vast and huge, you see. So what has to appear here and in what combination that it can really attack you?

Nothing, Father. It's really nothing, nothing, nothing. But I feel like I have to like, um, say it like very strongly and see and yeah, like nothing.

Yeah, I'm very happy. I'm very happy with your report also because when this attack, this seeming attack, was coming, you said, 'Okay, let me see what it can do. What can it take?' That is beautiful for me to hear. That's very good because now it is settled into your heart that that which is true cannot be taken away. It cannot come and go, you see. So although some fluttering may happen, some like little bit of oscillation, but you settled for this and said, 'Okay, I'm here. What do you want?'

But I feel like it's not just a little bit. It's just constant. No, not constant, but at the end, what is a lot? How do I compare? But it feels like it's coming, coming, coming, coming, and it's fine. It's not like, um, 'Please don't come,' you know? Just this fear thing. I was a couple of weeks trying to see, but yes.

And this fear is very natural for all those, or most of those, who are on this path and making headway into self-discoveries. It is a very natural report that we have that this fear comes. You saw this one and sitting in front of the hot seat in front of Guruji, and this one was like, 'What's happening?' Nothing was happening, but all this was happening. So it's very natural for it to come. We don't have to worry about how long it comes for, when will it go. Don't have to worry about any of that.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Very good. I will have to listen a couple of times to this conversation.

Welcome to listen. Thank you. Good, good girl. Okay, we have Kunal. Kunal can come.

Hello, Father.

Hello, my dear.

Hello. Um, so I feel like right now I'm kind of moving into a more clear light, which is very optimistic for me since we last spoke. Um, I'm getting into a space where I feel like I don't need to really rely on any thought to function in daily living. Things are just happening as they are. Um, however, Father, it feels like the mind is seeing that and it's trying to up the ante a little bit, becoming more clever um about what thoughts it should kind of tell me. And they're becoming a little bit more easy for me to put my belief in. They tend to be kind of, you know, paranoid almost and very, you know, everything is threatening me. And I can sometimes laugh about it, which is good, but sometimes I do get carried away by it, Father. But I also trust that your grace is more powerful because I'm starting to see that it's not just mumbo jumbo. It's a reality. There's a grace there somewhere. So if I... I guess maybe I don't even know what I'm asking you, but um, just one... it's good. Yeah, it's always good.

Okay, so some things are coming up here and I will say them. If I forget about this part about the mind leveling up, then just remind me and I'll come back to that in a moment. But firstly, it is important as you are discovering the free-flowing play of consciousness, you see, you must not ever feel—not that you're doing it, but just as a cautionary tale because I've heard so many fall into that trap—you must never feel like it is some sort of a cheat code that, you know, God is just doing everything for me and everything just works out for me, you see. So we must remember that all of this is happening and it is the play of consciousness that it is playing with itself. There is no individual entity here who can make use of it or get used by it, you see. So it is not something that you can derive for any sort of benefit, phenomenal benefit, you see, although those may come in their purity on their own, you see. But if you make it something like, 'I'm just going to give up, put my hands up,' and you see how everything seems to work so well for me, you see, everything works always perfectly, but not for the 'me,' you see. And the minute you... if you ever fall into that trap that it works perfectly for me, then the mind will use that as a setup for failure, you see. It'll show you that it can squeeze the 'me' again, you see, because if it becomes like a desire about how something should play, then it doesn't work like that. So I keep cautioning all the sangha members that it is not a 'god mode' in the game, okay? And then everything we want will come to us, you see. God is now going to just take care of me. It doesn't help the 'me' in that way, and it is not meant to, you see. God is playing with its own creation, you see, and the play of this body-mind is just a part of that vast creation. We don't have to think that it is meant to serve this body-mind in some way. The body-mind, the play of this aspect of consciousness which is our body-mind, is in service to that God in its own way, you see. Never the other way around. That'll save a lot of trouble because many times we can experience this and what happens is you just let go and there's a sense of relief, no? Because we've been keeping so much doership up, you see. It's like we've been holding up the mountain and then you discover that actually Krishna was holding it up all the time, you see, and he was just telling us to come for fun and hold it up. You know that story? So anyway, even if you don't know it, it's fine. The thing is that you realize you don't have to hold it up anymore and it can feel like this is just great, this is fantastic, you know, I can use this in the best possible way, you see. But the minute it becomes that kind of, you know, sort of desire-oriented mode, then life will squeeze you again. And that is auspicious squeezing because we don't want that ego to start getting built up again. So let go, but let go without any expectation. Okay, I'm just going to meet everyone again as you let go without expectation. You understand? Then what happens is that it doesn't matter if things show up which seem to be... then God is playing God's game, you see. If they show up with great bliss and joy and peace, God is playing God's game. These too shall pass either way. Whatever can come will go. So that is important. Now remind me of the second thing.

Like Father, like him. Then um, what you're saying is resonating somewhere in me. I know that, Father, but yet there's always the 'and but.' And I'm, you know, I'm scared if I truly let go that I may act on one of these thoughts and the fear of harming someone else comes. And I know that that fear is ego-driven because it will be, 'Oh, I was such a good guy, how could I harm this person?' or something like that. And there's a fear just to let everything...

It doesn't happen. And you know, before I met Guruji, I used to for a few years go to a teacher called Ramesh Balsekar. And Ramesh Balsekar was always talking about non-doership and how everything is God's will. And the most common question he faced was this one: 'Does this mean that tomorrow I can just act on a bad thought and kill someone or become violent and irresponsible and all of these kind of things?' You see? So it's very natural for the mind to place this kind of trump card on you. I want to tell you that nobody has truly become open and empty and let go and become this violent sort of individual or something like that. It just doesn't happen. It's just an unfounded fear that the mind will throw at you and it's a very common trump card. And nothing of that sort will happen.

Okay, thank you, Father. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really look forward to these meetings and you've been such a lifesaver. So you are amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much.

Okay, very good. Okay, Cedar can come.

Okay, yeah. Hello. Um, actually you already know that I'm going through something and...

Oh, I'm with you. I'm with you, my dear. It was coming from my phone. Wake up, wake up! It seems like it has done its work. I started to laugh. I often say sometimes, you know, that... I often say sometimes that... yes, I was saying that I'm just an alarm clock, you see. I'm just an alarm clock that you yourself have set, saying that when I get too sleepy in this world, then you come and wake me up, you see. Wake me up. So the master is just like that. When we get too caught up in our narrative, in our belief, 'something is happening to me' and all of these things, then the master comes and says, 'Who? Who?' Like an owl. Like all the masters on this path are like owls. This is like, 'Who? Who?' How did the owl go, actually?

When you said that, you know, that something is happening with me, I was going to say that I know that something is happening, but to the 'me' it is happening. I'm not so sure. They... I don't know. It's little bits different because also it doesn't feel true, like it's all mental. So like, um, I have base now. I feel like this, you know, like the outcome of all the satsang and being with you, like base is here, but they do not have like a strong foundation.

When you say base, what is it? Like a foundation or something is unchanging? I think it's good, yeah. The background is just untouched.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know what to say more, but too much thing when you go from background to foreground...

I don't go anywhere. Background is here and foreground is just so much unclarity and burping also, and desire has come up and it's just all mixed up. And I don't know, I cannot also represent it as a problem now again. But you know, for a couple of weeks I'm not in a good state of mind and I always wrote to you. But I wrote to you and then I feel good, and again I go in the same direction with the mind. It just continues like this. So I just wanted to come up and I don't know, I cannot ask help about this point.

No, and I want to get everyone's opinion on this and maybe you can also give me some feedback. So what is happening in the life of Ananta is that besides the time that I get to spend in the satsang hall in satsang, most of life is going in a lot of work and a lot of things are happening. So what happens is that I get many times... I get a lot of messages. I get a lot of messages from my children, all the sangha members, everybody's writing. But many times I'm not... especially if something like needs for us to look together, you see, those kind of opportunities I'm not able to make. Usually if you just 'love you, my child' or something like that, then I'm quick to just send that. But if something is just playing out and I feel like this could do with some looking together, then I feel like I'll leave it for later. But that later never comes, as with most things in life, you know. So my feeling was that if we can get all of you to help each other in some way, you know, just as not as teacher and student but also just like brother and sisters in the sangha, to talk to each other when somebody is going through especially a low time. Then I've been actually advising sangha members to talk to each other and call each other when somebody seems to be in trouble of some sort. But what happened many times, notice that when it is among all of you, then there is not so much receptivity coming from the other side. It just feels like, 'No, I only need to speak with Ananta and only he,' you know. So not... I'm not talking about your case, of course. I'm saying generally what happens is that when I try to say that maybe you can just talk to each other and, you know, just point to each other what is your highest discovery for each other and do...

To be in trouble of some sort, but what happened many times, notice that when it is among the each of all of you, then there is not so much receptivity coming from the other side. It just feels like, 'No, I only need to speak with Ananta and only he,' you know. So, I'm not talking about your case, of course. I'm saying generally what happens is that when I try to say that maybe you can just talk to each other and, you know, just point to each other what is your highest discovery for each other—and it doesn't always have to come from Ananta's mouth, it can be the Sangha supportive and helping each other as well—then I feel like many times there's not enough resonance with that kind of thing. I just wanted to get everyone's feedback too, and I'll do whatever you guys say. If you say that that is not going to work, don't direct us to talk to someone else in the Sangha. And what will I do? I will just point you to someone who is, in that moment, in a little more clarity or in a better place, let's put it that way. Not to say that they are in some, you know, not necessarily in some permanently open place or something like that. So, do you feel like this sort of Sangha support environment is good, or do you feel like not so much, it's not so helpful?

I think after hearing from you, it can be very helpful because as you said, yes, actually, at least for me, that only Father can help me, nothing, no one else can help me, even though I get help from Sangha or you know. But after hearing you, the natural trust has arisen and yeah, by your grace, I'm sure that it's going to be very, very helpful.

And more than this, it can be reciprocal. You know, today you are not feeling so good, somebody calls you and just listens to you and gives you a shoulder to cry on in a way, and then tomorrow you can play that role for them. Not that it has to necessarily be that way, but it's just among the family. We're just, nobody's higher or lower or something like that. It's just that we are all here to support each other in some way or the other. And there are always moments where some seem to be a little more open at that time and some seem to be afflicted because of life situations and things like this. So I feel like it'll help. Also, it'll help Ananta because sometimes then I feel like, you know, I'm not able to help as much as I would like. But if I feel like some of my children are taking care of my other children, then it feels a bit nicer, you know? It feels a bit better for me. So I'm also getting a lot of chat about this and we are all so about this. So Amba said, 'I love what you are saying, Father. I feel this is what the Sangha is for.' Yes, actually, exactly. That's the Sangha. In fact, they say, 'I go to the refuge of Buddha,' you see, but they also say, 'I go to the refuge of the Sangha,' because the Sangha is also the Buddha.

So I feel like I noticed this actually, that when I started doing the listening sessions and I also encouraged everyone to do, but I noticed that not so much was happening with others, you know? It was just like my sessions got booked up till August or something, and then with the others, they had a lot of time free but they were not really... everybody just feels like they have to hear it from this mouth or something. But this is not true, you see. I feel like the Sangha among themselves also can just be a bit open and, you know, just sharing. And we must remember, if you're going to provide that listening ear, then we must ensure that we're not like dominating the conversation or, you know, just pushing you to inquiry, but just mostly to just listen, listen, listen. And if you feel like there's some resonance coming from the other side, if there's some openness, then say, 'Okay, what about if we look together?' You see? What about something? Because it can actually come, grace can play through all bodies, and it'd be really good if the Sangha can create a sort of supportive environment in this way. And I feel like others also saying that sounds very beautiful. Good, good. Yes, yeah, yeah. Mostly it's all good. Yes, yes, very good, very good.

And I'm so happy for this and um, yeah, it seems like this is the solution that I need because what I was experiencing is just, yeah, whatever it was. And you know, while these things were happening, not as an event but just too much mental noise and couldn't find any space or a touch of spirit, let's say. Just one or two events have occurred like this touch of Sangha and it was completely, it's like such a remembrance, you know? Like this was all I need. So I'm just so happy that this blossomed from your heart. So thank you.

I feel like to encourage this, especially if it is the format of the listening sessions, you know? If you have just that format of non-judgmental listening and all of you are able to support each other in this way. Because the format is different here, we come because, and obviously it helps in all ways, but the thing is that we cannot constantly be in this environment and it will be very massive if we get this kind of supportive system going. It doesn't have to be too like red-tapish and process-oriented and it can be quite spontaneous. We can figure out some easy way.

And by your grace we sure and we know that it will be like this. So with your grace alone it can work. So thank you for blessing us in this way. Actually, you are the one who gives us the power to listen and to talk. Even you are the one who can make all this possible. So thank you so much.

Maybe we can create a separate something. We'll figure out, we'll see. Thank you. Idea, thank you so much. Thanks to you. Thank you, thank you. Okay, Laurence has her hand up. Oh sorry, her hand up. I'm so sorry, aren't you? Hello.

Father, trying here to be spontaneous, not so easy. The place where this one is being really challenged these days, it was whenever there are decisions to make, or seeming decisions to make, I keep getting in great doubts and asking, 'What is best for my evolution is this?' And I get totally confused because I end up praying to Archangels, and suddenly I realized it brings duality. So the thing is, how can I put this? What has been really challenged is doing, you know, action, non-action. Because of, thanks to this situation, I've been confined. So it's been almost many, many months of being alone, not allowed to leave home, whatever. So the thing that catches me most is this, my activity has gone down almost to nothing. So there is great, how do I put this? Is there a sense of isolation? No. Always, I know it brings up a person, it brings up an 'I' who would like to be useful. So I keep oscillating between nothing, do nothing, and then I keep... but is that really what I came here for?

See, let's see where it goes. You don't have to be that worried about that.

What did you say?

I said we don't have to be so worried about that. Let's see how it goes and we can trust grace that it will unfold in a beautiful way. And if you want to change your question at any point, you're always free to make amendments to what you initially said. It's all fine, we're just talking. Okay? So don't worry. And so if you could humor me for a moment and tell me what you feel like is the difference between doing and something happening?

The difference is in doing there is someone doing, and that's illusion as you see already.

Very good. Yes, I can see that. But then I end up, the feeling here is, I know it's the way I look at it, freedom would mean spontaneity for this. And this one feels always, 'Is it right? Is it right to...?'

I just, yeah, there are two things I want to say about this. The first is that as you very rightly said, there is never a person or an individual who is the agent or who has volition who can do this kind of thing. So even the movement which seems a bit deliberate, you see, must be happening. Must be happening within the play of consciousness, isn't it? Easy. So we can be a bit more relaxed about that because even the play of consciousness, and some beings just so feeling so spontaneous and everything is so open, open, open, you see. And for some it's just like left, right, left, right, and then like that. But both are in the play of consciousness. Both. Let's say for a moment that consciousness is doing both, isn't it?

Yes.

So that is the most important thing, that we don't put so much pressure on this trying to become spontaneous, you see. So I'll give you some more examples of this because I've spoken to some like that who feel like they have this idea that, 'I don't plan at all, you see. I want to be completely spontaneous.' And you know what I tell them? I say, 'But that sounds like a plan to me.' 'I want to be fully spontaneous' is as much a plan as everything else, you see. And maybe they are too lazy to plan so they just found this escape route and said, 'I just want to be spontaneous,' you see. So whether you say, 'I want to plan, plan, plan' or 'I want to be spontaneous, spontaneous, spontaneous,' both ways it is just a plan. Just a plan in different colors, and not even that different actually. Are you able to see this? Because to the mind these are the two opposites. The free ones are spontaneous, you see, and the bound ones are planning. This is the idea that we have, no? You see. And I will tell you how it is true in a way, but not in this way. That 'I plan to just be spontaneous' is still a plan, you see. That's what we see.

Yes.

Yes, very, very good. So we notice both of these things. That no matter if it seems deliberate or it seems like somebody so open, open, both are the play of consciousness, firstly. And secondly, those who are saying, 'I am just such a spontaneous guy, you know, I just like to be spontaneous, I have no plan,' that spontaneity is their plan, you see. And it's a bit subtle, so it takes a moment to just catch that because we are used to it sounding like it is two different things. And I'm just pointing out how actually it is the same thing. To plan to be spontaneous is as much of a plan as any other program that anybody may have. So this is very important to notice.

So how is it, what is the true spontaneity of a sage? That's what you may ask, isn't it?

Yes.

Then what is the true spontaneity of a sage? A sage is empty of notions about doing, you see. Empty of notions about doing and happening. And yet in the expression of the body-mind, you see, like I'll tell you—I won't call myself a sage or something—but I'll tell you that here there's a calendar that has all my meetings for tomorrow, you see. And that doesn't sound very spontaneous to me, you see. And yet I'm not attached to whether that meeting happens or not, what is the outcome of that meeting, whether tomorrow shows up at all or not, you see. So in that way I am empty of expectation and desire, and that is more spontaneous than saying, 'I will not have a plan or a calendar,' you see. Because that is also a plan, a defense, and a way of doing. So I know it may not be something that you were expecting to hear, you see, but it does.

You open the window a bit? It's getting a bit warm, sorry. I suppose all this really got triggered by the sense that anything that will happen will happen, yes. So why is it right to try to force things? And what is the sense of forcing? And aspect, if I take the example of this activity which has gone almost to nothing, should there be something done to... if it is stopped for a reason and by grace? And so it's an endless, like, well, of course let's do nothing, but no, it can't be right. And yeah.

Yes, I completely understand this and I want to give you a tip, maybe it will help you. This is a question that if you see so many times, you see this whole topic of non-doership and free will versus God's will, the agency, volition, choice-making, decision-making, all of this is such a complex-seeming topic and we can get into many, many arguments. Most people in Advaita actually...

Grace. And so it's an endless, well, of course, let's do nothing. But no, it can't be right. And yes, I completely understand this, and I want to give you a tip; maybe it will help you. This is a question that, if you see so many times, you see this whole topic of non-doership and free will versus God's will, the agency, evolution, choice-making, decision-making—all of this is such a complex-seeming topic and we can get into many, many arguments. Most people in Advaita actually are debating free will versus God's will and volition and agency, these kind of topics, you see. But I have a simple question for everyone, and that question is: If there is free will, if there is this ability to force, as you say, then who would it belong to? And if it can't belong to anyone, can there be such a thing? There's no free will. And in a way, then, we can say that if all there is is God's will, and God's will is completely free, then the only free will is God's will, you see.

But we should not—so basically, it's challenging the one who doesn't want to make a mistake. Is that what you're saying?

Exactly. So when we say that it's all God's will, there are two ways to approach this, isn't it? The first way to approach this is to say, 'Therefore, then I am just a puppet in God's hands,' and I have—this is such an oppressive way to live because God is so unfair and all these things happen to me. That is one approach we can have and say, 'Okay, I have no free will, it's all God's will.' But the other approach, and that is what I'm pointing to, is that there is no distinction between your presence, your being, I am-ness, and God itself, you see. That is the one God. So then the distinction between the 'me' and God is dissolved, you see. And then, therefore, as Consciousness, all there is is yours, and everything that happens happens through your will. But not you as Lawrence, not you as a person, but you as Consciousness itself.

So that comes from arrogance?

Yes, exactly. So if—well, no, I mean, it's okay. It's not a serious diagnosis because the arrogance, the way I define it, is just to take ourselves to be separate from God. Yes, that's it. It's not like 'I'm super proud' or something. No, but it's like the subtle belief in a person disguised, something like that. That's where this question can be relevant, isn't it? That 'Can I make decisions or does God make them for me? How much free will do I have? Is my life 20 percent free will, 80 percent God's will?' But then who is this one who could have that 20 percent, you see? And I'll tell you something strange: even those who have come to the discovery over and over again that there is no such individual entity, somehow this doership is such a strong conditioning in this play of this Leela that they still say, 'So then what do I do next?' You see the joke there? I discover there is no such 'me,' you see, and there is just Consciousness as the one doer and the one experiencer, you see. So now, 'What do I do?'

Is that I keep praying to be acted—but this is still okay, I'm not sure just how to express what I—

Are you saying that you pray, your prayer is that may you be acted upon by God's will and may your body be an instrument to His will? It's not a bad prayer. It's not a bad prayer to start with. But as this prayer develops, what you'll find is that this seeming boundary—because you may start like this duality, yeah, it's okay—so it can start like that where your head is bowed down and we say, 'Please God, let this body be an instrument of Your will and may everything that happens happen in accordance with Your desire for what You want to see,' you see. But as we truly keep our head bowed down more and more, the sense of distinction will start to dissolve, you see. It's not a bad approach. It's very much like surrender, but initially it can feel a bit like duality. But it itself, this surrender itself, can flower into the absence of distinctions, you see.

So that that's what came lately, actually, because Guruji said 'for you now,' and it actually brought me, through your satsang with you as well, to surrendering. And the other day it was, what's the difference between surrendering and giving up? So it's always this, it's another thing around doership. And the thing is that in English you've got two words, but in French you've got one word with one slight difference: 'abandonner' to give up, 's'abandonner' to surrender, which means like surrender oneself. It's the 's' of self or sacred or whatever.

And I think that this is like—can I tell you a simple tip? A simple tip would be that wherever we can have that play of trying to determine these things—'What does this really mean? What is the difference between this and this?'—all of that, you see, to let go of that playground is to surrender. It is to surrender, you see. Wherever we can form a judgment saying, 'This is right and this is wrong, oh, it's more like this actually, less like that,' you see, that is the playground of suffering activity. You can leave that for a while.

Yeah, it's like discernment is something that is going to combust into—and I—it's as though there was trying to do it with the mind. Is that it, in a way?

But the discernment that I'm talking about is actually being able to discern that there's a play of an intellect which can have its opposites and judgments, and there's a discernment between that and your deeper intelligence, which is your heart, you see. So that is the true discernment. And how to get to the heart? You just let go of this intellect for a while and you notice that what is playing is just the heart, yeah, you see. And this is very important to point out because many can feel like discernment is just something that happens between two judgments in the intellect. Yeah, that's not the department we are speaking on.

Thank you for that. Yeah. Um, so what would be your advice whenever this sense of a choice comes? Just to surrender?

Yeah, just to let go of that playground where that idea of the right decision, wrong decision—because that was the, in the famous story, you know, in the most famous story probably in the world, that was the bite that Adam took, isn't it, of the apple? That was the apple where you got into this sort of distinction: good, bad, better, worse, what should I do, what should I not do, you see. Before that, it was just innocence. It was just innocence. So this return to this innocence before—it's very childlike, just like a childlike way of existence. There could be no mistake. All right? There's no such thing.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, my dear. Very good. Okay, I'm saying that sometimes when I have needed to speak with someone in the sangha previously, I have just looked to see who is online and asked them if they are willing to listen in that moment.

That's very nice. That has worked well here. And that's very nice also because then there's no possibility of, you know, like, 'Oh, you were selected randomly,' so you don't feel that arrogant or something like that. I feel like it's a nice way that has worked well here, and when I needed to share in the past spontaneously, yes. Yeah, very good. I want to say that if any of you ever need to chat with someone and Umbra is online, you can grab her, get her. I'm missing a few things. I feel like I've answered them. If they're still alive, can you just paste them again and we'll look at them again? One says, 'Dear Father, how beneficial would be the Kriya taught by the Kriya Yoga Sansthas? Can we do them regularly and recommend them to other sangha members?' Yes, it's quite nice. All these Kriyas, yoga, pranayama—the unique combinations that various teachers have found of putting yoga and pranayama together in a way is quite helpful, at least to the body-mind. And based on your conditioning, it may also give you a lot of peace of mind to be able to even contemplate the deeper question, you see. So if you feel like somebody has come to you and they come to you in a state of agitation and things, and it comes in your heart to recommend something like this, it's fine. But my only word of caution there is that it should not be coming—it should not be too much confusion. Although I do say many times, half-jokingly, that the more confused you are, the better it is. But the fact is that it should—you know, because what can happen many times is that when you're just in that place where you're coming face to face with your reality, the mind can play as if there's a tsunami happening, there's a tornado. And in those times, it is the best to just stay with your inquiry, stay with the looking. So it is all right for us to recommend these kind of things, but we must have the right nose for it, the right intuitive sense for it. Because many times the mind will come with all of its might to shake us out of this, and if we get deflected in some way, then it can become another lifetime journey or something, you know. So I'm not really—I mean, Consciousness is taking care of everything, but it can seem to play out in this way. Because many times I've also noticed that not only alternative practices and techniques, but also just when someone is coming to some true insight, it feels like that perfect soulmate shows up, you see. Just when they were discovering their true soul or the Self, you see, that's when the soulmate decides, 'Okay, now is my time to make an entry in this movie,' or, you know, a great business opportunity to make some money or whatever else that can distract us in this play of humanity can show up. So what I would recommend is that you go within before you make a recommendation. Go to your heart and see what your intuitive guidance is telling you, you see. And if it's not so clear, then just point them to the Master or just point them to another sangha member. But if it is clear to you, like somebody has some body-related issues and you feel like some yoga may help them, then of course, by all means. One says, 'Can a happening be also seen as a thought construct?' Yes, yes, absolutely. That's when not even happening. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 'Innocence equals acceptance, Master.' Yes, yes. 'Father, does the desire for worldly gains impede our desire for freedom? Is there need to choose one or the other as I don't see one can be surrendered and still chase our ambitions?' Okay, few things to say about this. Let's see what comes up. Firstly, I wouldn't call—unless there's an expectation of a particular outcome and what that means for me, you see, if that is not there, then I don't call it a desire, you see. I would more call it a longing, you see. It is longing for the Lord independent of what outcome happens. Like the great Indian sage Meera, she was told, 'You're going to die, you see. We're going to have you killed if you keep going like this in your devotion to Krishna.' But she couldn't care, you see. So not only did she not want a particular great outcome out of her spirituality, she was willing to give up whatever this mortal world has to offer for that. So if that is what we are calling our desire for freedom—that we are just longing for this truth, we are longing for God, we are longing for reality independent of what state the body-mind has to live in after that—then I won't really call it a desire. I would call it pure auspiciousness and grace, you see. But if it is desire for worldly gain so that I can be a certain way, or desire for freedom so that I can then be a certain way, then also in a way I wish that your desire for freedom grows because hopefully you come to a Master then who can point you away from desire into surrender, true longing. And to be a bit flippant about it, we've had all the desire for worldly gains for a very long time. How much worldly gains has that given us? See? So now try playing it my way. Then you say, 'As I don't see one can be surrendered and still chase our ambition.' I feel like I've answered that. Very good. 'Father, my alarm clock was Yogi Ramsuratkumar chanting led by Ma.' I feel like we—

Hopefully you come to a master then who can point you away from desire into true surrender and true longing. And to be a bit flippant about it, we've had all the desire for worldly gains for a very long time. How much worldly gains has that given us? You see? So now try playing it my way. Then you say, 'I don't see how one can be surrendered and still chase our ambition.' I feel like I've answered that. Very good. 'Father, my alarm clock was Yogi Ramsuratkumar chanting led by Maadi. I feel like we have all been blessed in this Sangha connection by his sweetness and joyful spirit.' Very good. Thank you for that reminder. Thank you, thank you. I could like... ah, another hand is up. Okay, let me look at that. Magdalena first. Oh, quite a few. Okay, Magdalena first and then Olivera. So those who've already come up, you could put your hands down so that it's easier. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Um, first, a big thank you to you and Sangha for the support. Like you said, it's beautiful and very helpful to have the support from Sangha around the world. In my case, I guess I got support from Sahaja, I got support from you, I got support from India and from my home Sangha from Romania. Now Ana is recovering, so thank you for that. And my son was here in the beginning when there was no hand up, and he was saying to me...

I saw him, actually. I saw him. Thank you.

Yeah, and he was saying to me that you should put your hand up, now is your chance. And yeah, it is. And I asked him, 'What do you want me to ask?' and he said to maybe just say that I'm a bit nervous and less patient lately. And I think this is driven by worries regarding Ana's health and state, but also now we have to move to the other side of Australia in about a week and a half, and it seems very hard to find accommodation for longer periods of time here in this time. So what I observed in myself is: who observed and who looked? Sometimes when my mind is going through, 'What's the answer to what I'm asking? What's the answer to what I'm asking?' Who observed in who? I observed in my mind, or in mind—I'm not sure if this is the right expression—the observer. I don't know who observed. It's almost like, 'Can we get done with this part so I can go back to my part of the story?'

Something happened to the sound. I say something, Magdalena. Can you hear me? No, not good. Okay, sometimes it's too... just give us a moment, we're getting it together. You can contemplate my question. Yeah, okay. The rest of you can hear, but our speaker... we have an external speaker now because we've connected the mic to the speaker thing. Now say something.

Can you hear me now?

Okay, sorry, sorry. Just reiterate. You plugged into Nirvana? Nirvana? You plugged into Nirvana. What else do we want? Connected to Boat Stone 170. Okay, let's try now. Sorry. Yes, good, good. We're here. Okay, look, if I say it's me who is observing, I still have a sense of a statement. The 'you' that observes—does it have a location?

No.

Does it live in a house?

No.

Is there another you?

No. But sometimes I am absent because I get pulled in, or because there is too much noise and there is too much what I learned in Satsang is called identification with the person. And I'm very clingy to certain things.

So I can't... now, this one is not identification. The one that is very clingy—the observer is clingy?

No, no. It's the person. It gets very clingy to the person. The person is very clingy to the person.

Sometimes you have to look at it right at the root of the problem. Sometimes it's okay to speak at the phenomenal level, and it's fine. All my blessings are always with you, and I hope you find your accommodation and whatever keeps the children most comfortable. But also, it is important to tackle the main issue at times, isn't it? So let's really look at that. This one that is observing, that is aware of perception—you say that that is you. Now, that one, in its manifest play as consciousness, seems to get identified as a person, you see? But that identification equals suffering. And consciousness has within its power to not identify. That's why all the masters point to us to don't identify. If it were not possible for consciousness to do, then they wouldn't say it, isn't it so? So for you, being referred to as consciousness at the moment, don't log into any of these limited ideas about yourself. That is absence of identification and therefore suffering.

There is this thought in my mind that says, 'Okay, what if you do this now and then five minutes later you get into the same identification?'

Yeah, that's a common one. No, we started Satsang with something like this. So we said, what is the best thing you can do right now for the one that will be here five minutes later? Apparently, there will be such a one; let's presume so. What is the best gift you can give that one? Would your getting identified in the story of that one be a good gift for that one? Can you repeat that? Could your getting identified in the story of the one that will be there later—could that be a good gift for that one?

No. I was thinking the gift would be to drop that, to drop the identification and these desires.

Yes. Yeah.

And the need of controlling everything.

The one that doesn't exist wants to control everything. The one that is controlling everything is not concerned about controlling anything. That's the funny play.

You look very good.

I look very good? I'm not good, I'm just looking good. Where to trust? What to trust? I would rather trust your smile than your thoughts. There is so much conflict inside. How to trust the thought? I don't trust any thought here. How to trust a thought there? Trust my thoughts—that's what everybody tells me. Tell me something which is not a thought; I'll trust that.

I feel like telling you there is nothing which is not of mind.

And that is not a thought?

That's a thought as well. And I do have this sense that anything I say is a thought and it's a concept.

But your existence, your being, is not a concept. Your presence is not a concept, you see? So we learn to trust that more. And its play, whichever way it has to play out in this world, we learn to trust that more than the interpretive mind and the narrative mind, which all it has is stories. So if you say so, I still say trust my words more than your thoughts. Easy. Because the words that appear in Satsang are the voice of your intuition, which you are not yet able to hear without this seemingly external voice coming to you. But it's your own intuition calling out to you, saying, 'Let go of your mind and trust your deeper intelligence.' Very good. This openness will be your biggest strength. I feel like thanking your son.

Yes, yes, of course. Maybe... hey, good. Thank you, thank you.

India, I will end today with the question. Let's see if this is something very compelling. 'Is there any way to harmonize my worldly desires with my longing for God without seeing it as a conflict?' It's not a conflict. How could you ask that? Because maybe my answer came across like that. It's not a conflict, you see? It's at different levels. So in the world, you play all this play of desire and achievement and non-achievement; all of that can play out. But in your heart, there can be a longing for God which will flower in its own way without necessarily having to give up on anything in the world. Then you say, 'Or I can surrender this conflict to you.' Of course, all conflict. I said last time also, to have a master and to have a problem is wasting the master, right? One says, 'There's more space, silence, and looking. There's still a thought that is identified with what sees everything. Okay, it cannot be known, but it wants to be known still. Is it enough to just continue to surrender?' Ah, okay. I want you to come up, my dear. Can you come up? Let's see.

Hello? It's not so strong. Are you saying something? I heard a mild voice a few seconds ago. Not so well, my dear. Is it... can you come closer to the mic or something?

Yeah, I'll try. Hello?

It's a bit better. I'm sorry, we still don't see you on the screen.

I'm here. Let me see.

Ah, there you are. Good, good, good. Okay, so can you hear me? I'm going to pin this video. Okay, good. Yeah. Okay. Can you hear me? It's not great, I have to say. Is there an audio volume that you have in your Zoom settings? Let me check. Preferences, output volume. If you minimize this window, then on the main Zoom window, there's a gear that comes. You press the gear. Okay. And there you should have an option for audio. Okay. Okay. Hello? A little better. Can you move it to the max? We don't mind if it hurts. Okay, it's max. Ah, okay. I just move this speaker close to me and see if I can hear you well. Okay, you can say, my dear. Let's hear.

So there's more... there seems to be more space and presence and looking. Just pure looking. And there are moments of illumination that come in the form of just a sensation of seeing that there is a seeing of the seeing. And even the moments of seeing that there's being, like from nowhere. But there's this thought that wants to know from where. But then that's also a thought seen.

Okay, let's follow this one for a change. Let's follow this thought. Who sees, or what is seeing?

Well, the seeing of the thought is... it's seen. So if I go... if I just sit in quietly...

Can we do this fresh? Let's do this fresh instead of trying to remember what happens. So right now, we can use any perception. You can use this voice. So who is aware of the perception of this voice?

I am.

You are. How do you know that?

Because it just is.

It just is. Because something is, it has to be known. It's seen. In what way? I don't know how.

Okay, maybe I put you too much on the spot. Just relax a bit. We can look together. So you said very innocently, 'I am,' you see? But this 'I' which is aware of the perception—is that an object of perception itself?

No.

And yet it is clear and apparent that it is 'I', isn't it?

Yes.

So this apparency, you see, is true knowledge. It is not small 'k' knowledge, which is conceptual knowledge, bookish knowledge, learned knowledge; but it is Atma Gyan, self-knowledge, you see? Just this. And this knowledge is not separate from what you are. You yourself are this knowingness itself. So how do we come to this self-knowledge? Just like this, in the innocence. It is apparent that it is 'I' which is aware, no matter what the perception may be, or even the absence of perception. I am aware. How is it known? You're right that it cannot be known. When you typed earlier, 'it cannot be known through any conventional ways,' and when I say conventional ways, it is the ways of the world. But for you to know yourself, we can call it intuition, you can call it obviousness, whatever we may call it, you see? But this self-knowledge is just so clear and apparent that it's actually beyond any sort of acceptance or denial even. Okay, say something. Let me see where you are.

There's fear and sensation just coming up. And then there's the seeing that the mind is still grasping at something, or trying to. And then there's also kind of like this doubt in myself, like, 'Oh, you're making it up. This is... you didn't see anything. You didn't see this. Like, why are you coming up?'

Yeah, these are all the classical symptoms that we spoke about, isn't it? Okay, so it will tell you what is faking it. 'You haven't actually seen it. Why are you speaking all this?' But it's impossible for anyone to miss. Nobody is confused that it is 'I' that is aware. No. Nobody is saying, 'Who was that? Who was that that is aware of...?' It's apparent. So this spaceless, timeless 'I', non-phenomenal reality, actually is our most obvious discovery. But it is that obvious that it is too obvious for the mind to fathom, you see? So when we refer back to the mind to say, 'What did you get?' or 'Have you actually finally understood?' it is obviously going to say, 'No, nothing. What are you talking about?'

But it's impossible for anyone to miss. Nobody is confused that it is I that is aware. No, nobody is saying 'Who was that? Who was that that is aware?' It's apparent. So this spaceless, timeless I, non-phenomenal reality, actually is our most obvious discovery. But it is that obvious that it is too obvious for the mind to fathom, you see. So when we refer back to the mind to say 'What did you get?' or 'Have you actually finally understood?' it is obviously going to say 'No, nothing. What are you talking about?'

It's just you. When you talk about it, it's like there's no content to it. It's so simple. You just say it's just you, it's seeing, but then it just feels like it needs, it wants to be more complex so it can be graspable.

Yes, yes. Whatever you can grasp is going to come and go. Can you get comfortable with the ungraspable? And you are already more comfortable with the ungraspable, yes. So the mind tricks you and says 'But you're just faking it' or 'You haven't really understood anything' or 'Show me what you found.' All of that, just let it come and go. Don't bother with it, okay? This I that is aware, can it be hurt by anything? Hurt by anything that appears?

No.

Affected?

No.

Dented, scratched, mild, just a sliver of a scratch?

No.

Can you go from being that which is aware into just becoming a perception?

I know what you're asking, but there's no way you can do it.

Yeah, you have to try and do it. Not conceptually, just try to become just an object in your perception rather than that which is aware.

I don't even know how to try to do that.

Yes, yes, because it is so ludicrous. And yet our belief system is usually that, isn't it?

Yes, yes.

So trust your insight more than your belief system.

Yes, yes. Okay, thank you.

So welcome. I am always up for this kind of inquiry, always up. Thank you.

Like you said to Madalina, yeah, I trust you more than I trust myself.

Very good, very good. Thank you, thank you, my dear. Very good. Nice way to end today, no? Actually, I have a call at 7:30, so quickly we play a bhajan. Ah, there's also a birthday. So one quick bhajan. Can we cut the cake along with the bhajan? He's vanished. She's calling.

Bless you. Happy birthday. Happy birthday to you. I think it out. What do you think? Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. Satgurus.