Spontaneous Satsang in London - 16th July 2018 (low audio - captions provided)

It is everything else that complicates.

Yeah, everything else seems to... like Ashtavakra says, “The mind is complex. The mind is complex, let it go.”

It's not a Knowing that can be attained.

Say, my dear?

It's not a Knowing that can be attained.

Exactly, exactly, because it won't have to be. It's like, you are not trying to retain this breath. You see? Because you know it's always there. You are not trying to hold on to the sense of sight because you know it’s just there. And yet, when we have an insight about the Self, we feel like, "Oh, if I just capture it in my concepts or I just write it down or make a benchmark, like a phenomenal benchmark of it, then I can just hold on to that," but it is not about that. It's just like I say: What do you have to do to sit exactly where you are sitting right now? But to be the Self is even more natural than that. It is just sitting where you are, like me then you can be tired. You can be tired, but the Self is not tired. It's just like...

You know what I've been kind of contemplating for at least the past year (especially when the baby is there and it takes a lot of the attention), that kind of sense of tiredness, because in a way I feel very vibrant but something is very tired... like when the baby is tired... but it's just some kind of hanging on...

Yeah, the thing is we just… what I am really saying is that we cannot know; and yet we always know. Like even these things about what something is; we can make lots of conclusions about them but all these conclusions are debatable. You know? They are always debatable. Even the Sages don't agree with any conclusions among themselves. They never agree. Because what I am saying about this “neither true or false” actually applies to everything; that we never can know with this device [mind] what anything actually is; with this device. It's like Alexa or Siri cannot actually know what is. It's just giving answers. You see, it's just like, "Alexa where is this?" "It is here," but it doesn't actually know it. It is just programmed to give these answers.

So, even like conclusions of our deep contemplations… the contemplations for themselves are very beautiful, in a sense, but we start letting go of what the mind concludes of them. Nobody can ever say what anything truly is; and yet everybody truly knows what everything is. The Is-ness always knows itself.

Do you feel is it useful, the contemplation of something like this, to then kind of unravel something and come to deeper...?

Yes, yes, of course. All these contemplations are very useful but what I am only suggesting is that we don't get attached to any conclusion of the contemplation because then that can be in our basket of conclusions.

Yeah that's again a standpoint.

Because we cannot really.... we claim to know "What Is" for so much and "why is" for so much but we don't actually know any of it. We don't know any of it. But there is a deeper Knowingness which is always present. Like, I don't know what a tree is and yet somewhere (which is not at this [mind] layer) it is completely known because it is "I" in a sense. It is not separate. I don't know what is happening here but if you give this to the mind it'll say, "Ah, this is very nice. We are sitting in a park and there are 7, 8 of us and so..." You see, this is the photocopy version that can be stored up in our photo album. But the thing is, do we really know what this is? You cannot know it like this [with the mind]. And yet, it's kind of very primal. You see?

And as children, we've been taught to try and make sense of life in this way [with the mind], to have a concept of it, to give us the feeling that once we have a concept of it, “I know it.” But actually, we never know anything at all truly. Even now, you could be hearing these words and be like, "Am I getting what he is saying?" But that's what I am saying, that this: What is that? Look at that sense of "Am I really getting what he is saying?" What is that and what was it before that? And what does the concept actually give to you? If you have a question, what does that give to you? It makes like a knot, and the answer then unknots that knot. But what is that stage before questioner or answerer? And how did we get into this sort of paradigm of constantly trying to figure it out? What is our state before the figuring?

Like babies, they are not saying, "What is this?" He is not saying, "Mama, what is this?" and Mama is saying, "This is Satsang." He doesn't have a need for that concept. There is no separation yet. But we put these concepts and then with every concept comes this voice of, this sense of separation, "Okay, this is me and this is other. This is London and that is Bangalore. This is this and that is that." But it's nothing. What is London? Is there a thing called London? You don't look at any of this. Is there like a thing called Man? You see, there is no actual thing called Man. It's just a collection of concepts like facial hair, anatomy of how a man is supposed to be. And so much violence is there in the world because of that. We have some who are gay and transgender in our Sangha and there is so much violence the world inflicts on them because of this notion of Man. There is actually nothing called Man. There is just this. What is an animal? Man afflicts so much violence on creatures just because we have this idea of separation. "I am man and that is animal." It's only possible because of these labels.

Just like, you use these and it has become so primary to our conditioning to try and know what this is. But what is that mean? This need for meaning; is it a need for true meaning or is it like the need for a "me"? You see? It's like the need for "me".

It is the need for a "me", isn't it?

In a sense, it's like that, that the "me" cannot really... have anything to hang its hat on unless it has one concept "I am this" or "The world is this" or something which gives a definition. And this is why I am saying that I find it more and more difficult to speak now because it's so undefinable. And I have noticed over the years that even things that I have said in Satsang, I have used as definition, I have used them, Sangha has used them as definitions to something which is undefinable. In the innocence of a child this was not there. We did this to our kids also, where we said, "This is hand, this is head, this is nose" and then we would get upset with them and be like, "Kabier, where is your nose?" and if he'd do that [pointing to his head]. "No, no, no this is wrong. This is [the nose]."

So, in this human play, we played like this, where it all passes on from generation to generation, and if you believe in continuity of some sort and you know it's many lifetimes of this sort of coming to the idea that... to put it very simply, what I am saying is that even the coming to Satsang can feel like, "I am coming here to know something." And, "What is he going to tell me that will give me greater clarity about life?" Actually, I can't tell you anything which gives you greater clarity about life. But if I do say something which then has this sort of... If you have this idea of “left, left, left" and I say, "right, right, right" and this concept of "left" dissolves then it's natural that more clarity arises. So, this is how Consciousness is playing with itself.

Coming to Satsang can feel like, "I am coming here to know something." And, "What is he going to tell me that will give me greater clarity about life?" Actually, I can't tell you anything which gives you greater clarity about life. But if I do say something which then has this sort of... If you have this idea of "left, left, left" and I say, "right, right, right" and this concept of "left" dissolves, then it's natural that more clarity arises. So, this is how Consciousness is playing with itself. The feeling that... playing with all these concepts in the delusion of playing with individuality and then coming to the All-there-Isness, undefinable All-there-Isness, with this notion of this concept. It can happen like as a spiritual experience. In your meditation sitting one day and just like, "Hah." You see? And you can't really say what that "Hah" was. It was just some bag got put down or something. Or it could be anything.

Just what is the time where we are most full of wonder? When we make something where the mind is not able to conceptualize yet. In that moment, where we are like... before Consciousness starts to make something out of it, in a sense, then it's beautiful. But I have been in those locations as children, and various places you go to, and you have this wonder but in 5 minutes it's gone because you already put it in a photo album of concepts of these things. And there is nothing that can really be done about it or can really be... it's not... I am not speaking at that level at all. I am not speaking of that coconut. (You were there, no? When we speak about ocean and coconut, or did that start after?) I have just been saying that the ocean is having a true insight about itself but because we get so used to identifying with a particular aspect of the ocean, like the coconut which is floating on top on the surface, we feel like, "What must the coconut do now?" But I am not speaking like that at all. What I am saying to you is that, like that head is nodding, this mouth is speaking. I truly can't find a way to say that this is my mouth and that is your head. It's just... just this.

I feel like this search for the Truth isn't there anymore. It's not like, "I must know, I must know." It's just like so much easier now. And like, hearing you speak like this, it's just so... just like "Yes." It's just as you're saying, "mouth, hand" it's all just being moved by the same energy... whatever. But in my day-to-day life, it's like, no, I am identified completely with this person and I do think "I am me and Will is Will" and... da, da, da. But when I look, it's instant, absolutely instant. It's not like there is a me that's looking. It's just like there's a looking happening. It's not like I go, "Right, I'm going to look and inquire." No, it's just, the words spring up in my mind and inquiry happens and there is no me anymore; but there is no like, there is no continuity in that and that's okay, too. That's just how it is.

Exactly what it is.

And that's all part of the One anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It just seems like there's so much more, like, freedom and relaxation than before... but there's not that continuous, like, open.

You need not know how it should be. You need not know "It has to be this way" and "It has to be that way" because in that I find that... like, I have to say that many who come to Satsang with me now are very tired... just very tired, and I don't want to tell them that... something like (because it is not true), I don't want to tell them that you have to be more anything; you have to do the inquiry more or you have to be more virtuous or you have to be more devoted or something like this, because if we really look at the tools we have... What are the tools we have? If somebody says, "You have to be more devoted." I find no tool here which creates devotion. I don't have that machine. Where is that? If I go to that and say, "Please, can put some coins in and can you please spit out some devotion?" I know no such machine, you see... where you have to be more of anything. I don't find that it is actually available anyway. I don't want to burden my children with any of this stuff.

Also, there is this precedent where if you meditate enough, if you are devoted enough, if you give up all your worldly possessions, then in the end you'll get this goal. Well, maybe that isn't the end goal. Maybe however we are right now is how it's exactly meant to be. Like the acceptance of that. So, it’s just to accept yourself.

Acceptance is... What does acceptance mean? It's the lack of avoidance. So, lack of avoidance. How it truly happens is to be empty of even the concept of what it is. Because most times, it is our notional idea of what it is that becomes avoidance. To say that "This is a nut" is my avoidance of just what it is. You see? Because the minute I say, "It's a nut," I have put it in my basket of knowledge. You see? I have said... I have defined it. I have said, "This is a nut." But actually, this is not definable in the 3 letters n-u-t. You know, it is just like... I don't know. Is it making any sense? I don't know. I can't actually truly make sense, really, what I am saying. Is there some resonance to what I am saying? Because if this we can see, that we avoid with our labels, we avoid with our concept of it, even in our concept of... we can say, "Oh, I am experiencing these nuts completely for what they are," but as long as we still, like, have this idea that this is some thing, that this is, like, "I am some thing and I am accepting this as some thing," then I’m talking about another sort of acceptance which is not capture-able as long as we are so caught up in our labels of what it is.

This is probably not going to make any sense to you.

It's fine, I am getting used to this, even what is coming out of this mouth.

Yes, you're kind of talking about not knowing, not knowing anything. And I've heard that idea obviously for a long time. And I've felt like I understood it, and you can kind of not know, but it does seem like there's nothing you can do to not know and it seems like the not-knowing somehow just happens by itself. You can't, like... I think... I don't know listening to you speaking, because I feel like you are speaking from There, it does kind of bring you deeper into That. So, listening to someone like you speaking like that is obviously helpful.

Yes, you see? Even this cannot be known. What you are actually saying is that... because what you said is a beautiful example of this. You see? And this is what I feel, like, we cannot, like... I will not be able to share Satsang in this way, because the first part completely neutralizes the second part or the second part completely neutralizes the first part and we just come back to this nakedness. You see? It's like we played with some, like, something and just... (Puff!) It's just... you know what I am saying?

So, in a way I kind of said there's nothing you can do about it and there is nothing you can do to not know but yet, like, listening to someone talking about it and all, it does seem to have some effect.

Exactly. Because even this is not actually known. We cannot have a position with regards to our knowing and not-knowing because that would be "to know." You see? Like even to say, "I just know now that I can't know anything." You see? This is like, "I know now that I can't know anything," but we don't know that also.

Like, it seems like the only thing you can say is like "It seems to be."

"It seems to be."

Because you see your own experience and you can kind of see that it seems to be like that, but of course, that thing that seems to be, it seems to also keep changing all the time, like the more time that goes by.

And when you start exploring what is this "seems." Like, "What is this 'seems'? What does it mean to know what 'seems' is?" Something "seems." What is this? How can something seem? You know, just like, it makes us so naked. Like, what is seeming; what is the seeming? Like we can say, "This is a great seeming," but... you know what I mean? It's like "seem"... When we start looking and we know that we've had so much we have heard even in Satsang about all these terms, like, "It's all a great seeming" and then you can say, "Wow, what is seeming; as what?" What would the seeming be? You know, it's just like... So, it's really completely deconstructive in a way. And the thing is that, like, even here there is so much conditioning, because I want to end with "but that is so beautiful, because..." but I don't want to give that reassurance also now. Because that also becomes like a knowing and that is what gets us in trouble actually. But he said, "It is so beautiful"... you know and... You see? So, just like... What is the reassurance? It's also like, in a sense, like, a knowing that "I am safe" or "I am getting better?" What is that? What is primarily that which is too wobbly now, unless it gets a conclusion from a Master or from someone saying, "Ah..."

So, we've been just having some fun like this, to look in Satsang in a very different flavor. I just said after Satsang one day, I said that "Nothing I am going to say today (after Satsang) is going to reassure you." Then it can be like... Even our holiest concepts like, "The Master is always taking care of us;" but there is so much identity in that. It's beautiful... See, the condition is to say it, is to have that reassurance but I don't want to say it. It's like... The thing is that if that opposite thing is not said, then many times the mind takes up the opposite. Like if I'm saying that even a concept like "The Master takes always care of you" is not needed; the mind then immediately can pick up the opposite version, which is like, "Oh, the Master is not taking care of me." But I am not saying that. It is neither; neither true nor false, neither being nor non-being, neither truth nor lie... this middle. What is in the middle? What is in the middle of our conclusion? This is good, this is bad, this is true, this is false, this is up, this is down, this is left, this is right. Everything I have said is false. You see? Even this. You see? In the sense up and down has to make a relation for "me" where I am limited to a particular position. So, truly I don't find something like up and down, true, false, right, wrong, good, bad. We just trouble ourselves, in a way.

Q2: Thank You

I just feel like, if there's a book 20 (ever) that book 20 will be very different from book 1, in terms of the words.