Listen with the Heart, See with the Heart - 24th October 2025

If He was not here with me right now, what would remain? A life which is more like death. There is no life in it. So an egoic life is the zombie life; it is lightless. Lightless. And yet in His own plane, in His own light, He has given us the capacity to forget about Him. And He never forces us to love Him. In a way, in our limited understanding, it looks as if He's always so humble that He's awaiting His turn, never getting in front of the line. So when we pick attachment to this worldly appearance, He allows us to do that. But He doesn't alter the ephemeral nature of the world appearance.

So what would happen if we were to tie ourselves to that? I used to say in Satsang long ago, if we tied ourselves to a drunken donkey, what would our experience be like? So this world appearance is much more absurd than the ever-changing ways of a drunk donkey. And when we attach ourselves to this world, our experience is fully topsy-turvy just like that. That which we consider our own self, which is basically the non-existent identity itself, is constantly changing because it's very brittle. It is based on those constructs which are very fragile. They don't have any consistency. You may be convinced about one thing right now; ten minutes later you may be convinced about the opposite. And all these belief systems is what make up the identity, the ego.

So as a replacement to God's presence, it is completely unworthy. But it is designed to convince us that it is worthy. Just what are the narratives? Just make enough money and it will be godlike. Your life will be replicating the presence of God. You don't need to find or be with God. Just make enough money and find the right partner who will complete you and then you'll be happy. There is nothing missing. Get an immortal body; you don't need God. And now the latest is: get enlightened. Get enlightened, right? Spiritual enlightenment.

And if our quest for spiritual enlightenment is still all about me, then it is not spiritual enlightenment at all. It is obsessed with 'I should have it.' The 'me' should now be free. Then it is just a quest for that same meaning-making, and meaning is only a replacement for God. I'm finding some meaning in this realm of Maya, usually at the expense of that which is true meaning—that which is the very purpose, the very essence of life itself.

Let me illustrate an example. If we are obsessed with the spiritual 'me,' then what happens is that anything that happens to us, we are looking at the effect or the meaning for the 'me' in that, you see? Like yesterday on the group, I was saying that if Ram Ji walked into the room, into your room, and you looked at Him and then immediately started to say, 'Oh, what has happened to me? What has happened to me?' then we don't remain in the Darshan. So suppose Ram Ji came in, you notice He's come, and then you're like, 'Oh, I have goosebumps. Oh, I am feeling so good. Oh, my mind is full of love. Oh, this is what is happening to me. I have to just keep jumping. I can't keep my feet on the ground. Oh, this is, you know, I'm so happy. I am just so grateful. I am, I am...'

But tell me more about Ram Ji. He is supposed to be the love of your life, is it? So where our treasure is, is where our heart will be. So if our treasure really was God, then maybe it could be the reverse. You say, 'He has come. He is so full of light and grace. He is so alive with love. His presence is full of life.' And then the report about me could be, 'I'm drowning in Him. There is no me left now. I can't find myself anymore.' Love is so overwhelming, and you are noticing every movement that He is making. I don't have the capacity to look at anything but Him.

So as our faith grows that it is God who is here, then with that faith, that holy fixation will also grow. You see, our current fixation is what? Even in spirituality, it can be 'what is happening to me' that is paramount. Not 'what does He want,' not His will, but the effect upon me. And in the very same breath, we may even be very arrogant about it and say, 'I want to now just leave this me.' For whom? For me? For my growth? So imagine if Ram Ji came to the—sorry if I'm extending this expression too long—but if He came into the room and all that we went on about is 'I want, I should, I did, I'm feeling, I, I, I,' and nobody asked Him for a glass of water. Not that He needs it.

So my request would be that you utilize every moment of His presence to listen to Him, asking for His will. And that is when prayer moves from being a speaking to a listening. A truer prayer is a listening than a talking. Like, the talking is an invitation at best. At best, the highest we could possibly communicate is: 'Please enter my heart. Bless my heart with the light of spirit, the light of Atma.' Now He's accepted your invitation. You see, He's always been there, but now He has made Himself palpable in some way. Not maybe discernable to the mind yet, but somewhere in your heart, you know. No, we listen not through these ears, not for words. We listen with the heart. We see with the heart. We are not grasping for words. We are not squeezing information out of the heart-light. We don't have to.

Then it has to become information to be expressed to spread the light; it automatically will transform into that. Getting a sense of what I'm saying? You don't have to work on the translation of the silent transmission into worldly expression. But that means faith and patience. Why does it need patience? Because your mind is forcing you to conclude things. 'You prayed for two hours today. What did you learn?' And if you don't have anything to add to your narrative to the mind, it is a complete waste of time. You think this is the time that we need to waste in this way. That should be our posture in the heart. I should not change that posture from this to 'let me tell you today.'

Sometimes it's all right. I'm just making rules; I'm just giving you a sense of some things which can trip us up. Sometimes it's sweet to share with our brothers and sisters. Nothing wrong with that. We want to report a love for that, that's fine. But don't feel like the quiet, loving bathing in the light of God's presence—don't feel like something has to be extracted out of that every single time. You're getting a transfusion by this doctor. You don't have to ask him what's in the drip, which vitamin, which medicine, which antibiotic. It is mostly because we still get bullied by our mind to add things to our story.

So allow it to happen in the most natural way. And you'll find that your mind is now uninvolved in that translation process. You will find that your mouth is saying something and it brings you great joy in your heart as it is being expressed, and you don't know where it came from. And then you're saying, 'This was as much to be heard here as it was to be heard there.' That is how your every word will become a Satsang. We don't need to ever convince anybody about our depths. Our depth is apparent to everyone before you say a word. That's how many sages became very famous sages, and they would speak very, very little also. I should learn that lesson.

This part, because something in your heart recognizes something. And many times when we rush, we may not allow the flower to fully bloom or we pluck it out. 'Start! This is what this means. This is what God told me.' Let it... so you have to let the seed sprout, start to grow. Nurture it every day. Then the flowers will start to bloom and they will naturally start to spread their light organically. Because you're talking to friends and you tell them, 'I met Lord Ram today and you know, I think this is what things are...'

What did they say? They'll say, 'But what did He say? This is what you were saying. You met Him and what did He say?'

And what He said is not always possible to express in words. In fact, it is rarely possible. We have to basically stammer. St. Paul said some great stammering, that 'I express words of the spirit.' Stammering—maybe he had a stammer, that's different—but stammering in the sense that if we become too mentally, intellectually confident in what is being shown to us, then that is a very quick doorway to pride. So we can maintain our humility and just feel like we are bowed down inwardly as the words are being shared from our mouth. Then we remain transparent instruments to His life. How long does that process take? We cannot believe it. But what I've expressed so far is at least what I feel is the only worthwhile way to lead a life. Getting the sense?

Father, it seems impossible to come back to God in the midst of a panic attack. A panic attack just comes without warning.

Yes, there are many situations for all of us where we find that when we are caught up in that situation, it seems impossible to return because our attention is fixated on objects in the world and our narrative is very compelling in those moments. And those compelling narratives are about the nature of our deepest attachment. So right now, sitting in Satsang, you may be able to let 99% of things go which are coming in your mind. But if you find that your phone has a missed call from some relationship where something is deeply attached and maybe unresolved, then you may find that until then in Satsang you heard everything, and after that you can't remember what was said.

Those moments, those times can seem very difficult. So what to do? Surround those times. Surround those moments where it seemed impossible to escape Maya. Surround them with every other moment so full of love for God. It's just like in a war. One of the strategies is to surround the enemy. You surround the enemy from all sides and then you can squeeze, squeeze, squeeze—in the sense that this is a squeezing love where you're surrounding yourselves.

Everything, and after that you can't remember what was said. Those moments, those times can seem very difficult. So what to do? Surround those times. Surround those moments where it seemed impossible to escape Maya. Surround them with every other moment so full of love for God. It's just like in a war. One of the strategies is to surround the enemy. You surround the enemy from all sides and then can squeeze, squeeze, squeeze—in the sense that this is a squeezing love where you're surrounding yourselves. You're giving me every opportunity where it is not impossible, or where it doesn't seem impossible, to deepen in your relationship with God, in your love for God, in your depth of inquiry, in your love for truth, so much that these moments you will find naturally reducing, naturally reducing.

But if we use our spirituality in the sense of a medicine for when we are already sick, then oftentimes you will feel like it is not effective. It is compared to every other medicine that is, but we may want a result out of that which we are not getting. So the question really to be asked is not about the moments in which it is impossible, but what about the moments where it was possible? And if you used as much of those possible moments, then the impossible moments will reduce more and more. Haven't you found this—that if you spend the whole day in God's presence, then that same temptation may come in the world, but it doesn't seem to have the same effect?

Father, yes. Sometimes it feels like the opposite of what you're saying. Yes, like that, um, like that as I was saying recently, that the pull of God feels more and more and that that is more accessible and that it's my desire to be with Him and I'm with Him, but then the tests that come are too large. And it just, like, it's similar to what Helen was saying, but even to the extent that I don't want to be with God, that I'm not choosing to be with God in those moments.

This can also happen in the way of the mind itself, Maya itself, becoming fearful almost of your sadhana, of your living in God's presence, and sending its best warriors in there, or maybe the best warriors in. So this can also happen. You're right. But and still, the antidote is only the same. Let's not worry about those moments where it is impossible. Even that moment in which we recognize that ten minutes ago I was in a state where it was impossible to remember God—it's too difficult—when that recognition comes, in that moment it is very possible to return to what's present. Even if in your report, in your experience, you're saying that those impossible times only seem to become more intense and more frequent now that I'm being with God more, the attitude is still the same. Then it is possible; when we remember, we must return. There's no room.

Can I ask something please? I'm not even sure what's going to be like. I did sense when you said earlier, like if Ram comes in the room and you start talking about you, I do sense there is a strong guy who comes here and says, 'Oh, I'm doing so much, you know, look how hard it is,' and I expect something in return.

If Ram came, or whoever you have most reverence for—Ram, Krishna, Allah—he came, how long will it take for you to first collect yourself and say, 'Okay, these are the problems that I have'?

I don't think like if I look, I don't connect with this Lord, you know? Like my only reference to God is like Guruji, you, Ramana. And the reference I have is more like because if I read maybe a statement from Ramana, I come to silence. If I see you, I come to my heart and I feel this love. Not right now because I have a headache. It's not a good excuse, but...

Let's say that, um, let's keep the living ones aside because the living ones are normalized by the mind.

What do you mean normalized?

Normalized in the sense, 'Oh yeah, he'll show up on Zoom or when I go to his ashram I can meet him.' So it's not such a big deal, but...

It is a big deal. It is a big deal.

Let me give you a comparison. So if Bhagwan appeared to you, Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi appeared to you in front of you right now, you see, that would be something, isn't it? That is unexpected by the mind.

It is. I would just grab him with both hands, you know.

Yes. You would rather start talking about your problems?

No, I would say, 'Gaze in my eyes.' Yeah. See, that's all. That's what I mean. Gaze and free me up.

Yeah. It's not about this. But you know, um, but what I'm saying is that it's only about this.

Okay. You said something which is because you said, 'Oh, I go at his ashram and meet him.' It triggers me very much when I can't do that. But that's not really the point of what I'm saying.

The point of what I'm saying is that now we talked about Ramana Maharshi. One of the greatest sages ever to have lived. But compared to God Himself—and he himself would be the first to admit that—compared to God Himself, he is just tiny. Now what is being told to us is that if He was to come in front of us, we would spend maybe many hours at least just looking at Him, gazing at Him with love, allowing His gaze to fill us up. What we are being told is that even the greatest sage is only an instrument. He is with us. So what is it that I can do which is better than just lovingly gaze at Him constantly? Use my head?

See, so what happens is that because we don't really, somewhere—not in your case, in my case also when I forget about this—I don't really have the faith that it is Him whose light I find within myself. It is Him whose presence I am tasting. Because when we go with our mental version of things, there is nothing like that in our heart. So my advice always is that one is a lip-service idea of 'God is with me constantly, God is here always.' But in our faith, when then that becomes our reality, then what else is there for us to see except to look at Him in love? My faith is not so complete as my purpose; I have to grow in our faith.

So what to do? So suppose our faith is only one percent. Suppose it's not possible to quantify, but suppose it's only one percent. Then that one percent—be with that one percent love. I feel that one percent love can just go up to one hundred percent very quick. However, sometimes even maybe if there is one percent left out of the one hundred percent, that one percent can also go in doubt one hundred percent. Does it make sense what I said to you? Like it can go both ways. And what triggers it? Let's examine that closely. It can go both ways. So suppose that we are at one hundred percent, fully immersed in Him.

Yeah. Like because when you were talking to me, I was immersed in Him. Then when I talked to you, I gave up my immersion. Let's say...

That's it. That's exactly it. And this is how easy it can be, you know, for a silly, stupid area. I hope everybody's following this conversation. Very important because notice that He is not the one who puts our eyes away from Him. But He is humble enough that if you pick the 'me' again, He doesn't get in the way that we mentioned also in Satsang. So, in that moment of immersion, does He say, 'Enough, enough, now you go'? It is possible, like Georgie was saying earlier, it is possible that the mind feels even more threatened and offers us some very deep condition that we have, some old nurtured impression that is deeply embedded in us, and it says, 'This is the right time to use this, you know, because I'm going to lose this one to God. I'm going to give this one to God.' So it pulls out those things right in those times where we just wanted to be quiet, you see, and it just says, 'Oh, it's very good, but what about this?'

It is like that because actually there is a guest stay in Sahaja and I proposed myself to honor this time by myself. Like even if I can't be there, I just wanted to honor it, you know. And there is nothing which the mind can't use.

It's very true. Like even the love for the Guru, you know, it goes just up and down like this. It's going to be devotion one day and rage the other. That very intent which is holy in our heart, that very intent the mind can use to make Maya out of you.

Say that again. That very intent Maya can use?

Yes. So you had a holy intent. Okay, there is something happening. Let me use that time fully to honor God, fully to be in God's presence, in the Guru's presence. And the mind will use that very thing either to make us feel deeply or to make us proud. Like you said, you will use this time to honor God. See what you're doing? Or, 'Oh, three days you've been sitting in so much silence and heartfelt, see how well you're doing.' It's fine. So either unworthiness or pride can be created using even the most holy pretext. That is why it is the greatest con artist.

Yeah. And he's also going to say that he's giving something to one and not to me.

You had to get that point out. Okay. So that is the trigger. All right. Now does that take away from the fact that whether you call it God's presence or you call it the Satguru's presence, that is always, always with you no matter what is happening in the phenomenal world?

I know. I have this doubt that, you know, sometimes I feel really like... I was in a coffee shop, okay, just regular with locals. They were drinking and playing cards. And then at some point in time I felt this pull in my inside, you know, it was like I was in the highest something. And then I thought, 'Oh, Guruji is doing something or he's working on me.' I don't trust my own ability or my own self in a way. I find myself relying on something external. And like even one night I woke up and it was just empty, that 'Oh, I'm going to use this moment,' it was 3:00 in the morning, 'I'm going to sit.' But this idea itself pulled me into a shape. So I thought, 'Okay, I'd better go to sleep.' But when I relaxed again, I was so fully aware and I could see the sleep also and my breathing, and I still thought, 'Guruji is working on us.' So it's always this thought and this idea of an external physical...

I want to only encourage that our role in this is to provide the availability in terms of consent and time. Our only role in this. The rest is the Satguru's grace, God's grace, of whom all the external masters, teachers, are just mere instruments.

You need to repeat that because my head is not listening properly.

I don't know if your head will ever listen, but it is me heart-to-heart. It's me.

Yeah, just there is a bit of a movement.

I'm very happy to repeat this point, which is that we may feel like we can become empty. We can become recollected. We can dive into our hearts. We can be with God's presence. We can recognize that which is aware even of presence. We may think that we can do all of this, but I'm sorry to break it to everyone: we can do none of this.

It doesn't feel like doing anything.

Yes. Exactly. So that's the point.

It feels, it just happens to me in a way.

Let's slow down. So then am I saying that we have no role in this whatsoever? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that what we can provide is our consent and our time.

Yeah. And when you say our time, is our time to be open and empty or in prayer or...

Our time belongs to Him. Our time for Him to do whatever He wants because, like you rightly said, it is He that is doing. Now if you go to the best hospital and you pick the best surgeon and then you say that 'I want to be on the operating table for only thirty seconds,' what will the surgeon tell you? 'I give you my consent but it's only thirty seconds.' The surgeon will say, 'No, then this is not the procedure I want to do.' The procedure that is needed is the sacrifice of that which we take to be our entire lives.

Yeah. And I sense here there is a resistance to that. It's like this sense of losing the supposed independence or suppose something.

Yes. Exactly. So because of whatever resistance, none of us have made the full consent for our entire life, including myself, and that is why we grow.

It's only 30 seconds. The surgeon will say, 'No, then this is not the procedure I want to do.' The procedure that is needed is the sacrifice of that which we take to be our entire lives.

Yeah. And I sense here there is a resistance to that. I like it, but there is this sense of losing the supposed independence or supposed something.

Yes, exactly. So because of whatever resistance, none of us have made the full consent for our entire life, including myself, and that is why we grow. We have to deepen every day more and more. In that process, we have to at least make sure that what was 10 minutes five years ago is now five hours, four hours, but not 10 minutes. In the sense of: work on me, the greatest surgeon in the universe, heal me of my separation. And I'm available to you for this process of healing. My entire life is available to you. That should be the intention. But in the actual gap between intention and application, it cannot be that in our words we say, 'My entire life is available to you,' but in our application that lasts only two minutes, not 10 minutes. No lover will accept that if you offered that to him in a worldly relationship. So why do we offer that to God? That is why we have so much trouble in relationships, because we say, 'I am fully yours.' In our lip service we say, 'I'm fully yours, I'm so devoted to you, I belong to you,' but availability? 'Oh, I'm a bit busy today. I don't have time today. I cannot look at you lovingly for more than 10 seconds.' So, He's made it simple for us; these simple things of human relationships we understand. So He made it simple and said, 'Okay, you use the same principles.'

It is like, 'I love you, but if you don't give me what I want and how much I want...' so then, is that love? And I feel He gives, but He's also testing.

No, He's not gullible and we can't defraud Him. In the sense, we can't just fool Him and say, 'Oh, I love you so much, but by the way, I just need $10,000.'

No, I'm not asking for $10,000.

I'm not saying you are; I'm using an illustration. So, I'm saying He may even give that to us. You see, in a leap of faith that He takes on us, He may even give that to us, but He will not be fooled twice. A simple question for all of you: between God and me in that relationship, if the relationship is between God and yourself—and obviously the point is that there is no 'me,' the ego is dissolving and you see the oneness with God, all of this—but while this construct plays, who is more faithful?

God. Exactly. That's very clear. Showing us the way even in that.

Father, I noted that you move from this... you know, there is some construct here and maybe a belief. Because I see my attachment to Guruji and I see this attachment can play both ways. I do it sometimes. There is this thing in my church, in the Orthodox Church—it's not my church, but someone said, 'Don't bow to fake idols' or something. And also Guruji said, he said Sahaja in the community will exist as long as it's needed and serve a purpose, and it's just food. Don't worship food. So I feel there is some trickster in my construct here. And now I'm just going to find the parallel maybe with you and your sharing, because you also moved from this guru to the love for God. I was going to seek for some guidance how, because when you say love for God, for me it's more... I see there is a limitation. It is more towards the guru figure and towards the guru's physical body. I feel there might be something within me which is not, I would say, not right, or maybe doesn't serve fully.

Suppose that we find a guru in the physical body; in fact, that is the spiritual journey anyway. It is very rare for one to come to God's presence without the guidance of a living teacher. If you're an Orthodox, you will have a spiritual director. If you are a Hindu, you will have a guru. The labels don't matter. The point is that it is very rare to come to God directly without somebody in the world showing us the way. And we've often talked about why that seems to be the case. Now when we find a guru, is he saying, 'I am it'?

No. He is saying, 'I can point to that which you are.'

Exactly. Now he is saying, 'I can point to that which is the highest within you, which is the Atma itself, who is the true Satguru within.' Isn't it? Every true teacher has told us that. Whether you're an Orthodox, the teachers in the Orthodox tradition don't tire of calling themselves just vessels of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, the Orthodox are not so generous with their sharing. They say, 'It's only me who can pray to God. You're a little thing.' But we leave them on.

I've read a fair amount now in the last few years of Orthodox sages and they're very humble and they're constantly saying that it's the Spirit which is guiding us. So my point was that whether you meet a guru in the Vedanta tradition, whether you meet a guru in the Bhakti tradition, every true guru will say that we are just in service to God's presence, the Atma, the Holy Spirit. Is there a guru who is not saying that? There is no true guru who is not saying that. Now what you're saying is that, 'I met the guru and now I'm unwilling to go any further on where he himself is asking me to go.'

Yeah, a bit like that.

That is to meet the guru on your terms. You can stay with the Atma within, stay with the God presence within, the Satguru within. In so many different ways we are pointed to the same thing. We don't just observe, just witness; in hundreds of ways every day we are being pointed to the same thing. And we say, 'I have found my guru, but it is you physically that I want as mine. I don't care about what you are saying.' Then what is the meaning of the word guru? You see? 'Just meet me on my terms.' Then who is the guru in the relationship?

You're very kind and generous in prompting.

You see, no, but it's like you see that I move is my expression. So in the earlier days, maybe you've also done this a few times, I'm not sure, but I'm half-joking with you where there came a point where a lot of the children started saying to me, 'This is my question, but I don't want the answer: Who am I?' So that is like putting the teacher in the box, saying that, 'These are my terms now, you better meet those terms please. I know you're going to ask: But who is the I that is asking this question? I don't want that answer. Give me something else. What else you got?' You see? Now when I moved on to what else I got, then everybody says, 'But he seems to not be an Advaitin as much as he used to be.' You see? So, the thing is that in the modern context, it is very easy to make a guru, but it is very difficult to fully be available to being pointed to by the guru. So the physical guru that we are finding—and I said the previous time that the Satsang, the presence of a physical guru, is by God's grace a miniature, a replica of what happens between the Atma, the true guru, and our insides, the soul. So this outer play of Satsang is a mature reflection of that—I mean not in a demeaning way, but I mean it in a very elevating way because there is hardly anything else in the world which can replicate that.

Yeah.

You see, but then if you say, 'No, but you are saying you are not really the body, your body is just an instrument of the true guru within, but I will take you to be the body only,' then how will the guru make any progress with you? The point of calling someone a guru is that you will try your best to listen to them. Isn't it? Like the first guru I went to, the first physical teacher I had the privilege of meeting, he said that people are very quick to call me guru and then very quick to tell me what I should be doing. And I found that very insightful.

Yeah. And how do you stop this, Father? You told me that before. It's more of a postpone.

True. So there is no problem the way your mind is framing the problem to be. Your mind is telling you your limitation is because you don't have a reverence or a direct relationship with God's presence, with the Atma. You have more limitation in terms of taking the physical guru to be your... but if you truly took the physical guru to be your guru, would you not listen to what he's saying?

It's true, and I didn't. The mind is coming with different interpretations, like it is not only the lack of faith or reverence. And we must at some point spot the absurdity in our mind's narrative, isn't it? Because how many years have all of us been in spirituality?

In spirituality, the focus of spirituality is spirit. That's why it's spirituality. Now, is spirit manly, womanly, worldly? No. The whole point of it is that it's godly. So, it's a godly presence.

I can't say, 'Oh, I don't know really about God.' You know, that's the mind. I just recall now there was one day when you wrote something on the group and I was reading it and the mind was having something to comment about it, but the heart was just fully blossoming in that connection. And maybe that was the most... it's what comes now, and it was an element example because it was very clear that there is something beyond the mind and the mind is not touching it. And I did hear you also earlier when you said that, yeah, when I said there is a bit of fuzziness and I asked you to repeat and you said, 'I'm not talking to your mind' or 'We talk heart to heart.'

Yeah, that's such a beautiful step. It's such a beautiful step when this heart communion, heart communication, heart communion is happening and there is a consent on both sides for it to happen heart to heart instead of first having to cross the hurdle of making sense to you.

Yeah. But it's also I feel what has been spoken was also important to be understood because I also feel like for years, and for some time being in Satsang also with Guruji, I was trying somehow to bypass the understanding. Like there was an effort from the mind to... how do I... I think it was an intention or something. And I remember in the beginning I was even telling to myself, 'No, there is something deeper than this and just don't listen with your mind.' You know how efficient or effective that is?

It's more, let me put it this way, that usually what happens is that we are scared to drop our sense-making capacity and allow the words to just percolate into our... now love keeps deepening when the trust keeps growing and the devotion grows, then we become innocent like children. You see, so little children—at least both of us are parents so we have some little experience of this—when they're at a very young age, they are, at least for a few months, they follow the parent unquestionably. See, the parent has said it. There's no 'Why should I? How does this make sense?' And that is a deepening of trust, a deepening of love. That is the process. It can't happen in a convoluted way like, 'I have decided I'm not going to use my mind.' It will happen. The mind will create a new bucket which is the thing that I'm not fully trusting and putting it in that bucket, and the thing that I'm fully trusting putting it in that. So it's not about mental categories; it's about coming to... when it is said it's a replica of that inner relationship, so through which filter will we make sense of God's will? Which filter? Like out of the six and a half, seven billion people in the world, more than half of them follow what is called Abrahamic religion. Abraham was the father of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Now, with what filter would Abraham make sense of God's will when God told him about Isaac?

No filter.

It's not possible. It's very... you see, and if Abraham was not at that point of surrender, his mental intention that 'I'm just going to listen to God' in those moments where the rubber hits the road is meaningless.

Yeah.

Seven billion people in the world, more than half of them follow what is called Abrahamic religion. Abraham was the father of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Now, with what filter would Abraham make sense of God's will when God told him about Isaac? No filter. It's not possible. It's very, you see, and if Abraham was not at that point of surrender, his mental intention that 'I'm just going to listen to God' in those moments where the rubber hits the road is meaningless. But it is that which led to all of this religiosity in more than half of the world; it is based on that one incident.

So really, it again comes down to becoming empty and available as much as possible to God's light. Only then can our innocence deepen in all the virtues that are needed: faith, patience, gratitude. All of these things can only deepen in their life. Because if you keep waiting for the mind's go-ahead, then everything the mind will create some trouble. Isn't it? Even now it's creating some problem. Is your guru the mind? No. That's it.

You see, what situation can come in our life where the mind won't—I'm saying in general, the mind can create trouble in everything. If you're with the physical guru, you say, 'Now I'm just looking at the guru as somebody physical.' If you're not with a physical guru, then the mind will say, 'See, you're not progressing because you don't have a physical guru.' So, in every situation, the mind can create. And if we keep listening to the objections of the mind and trying to resolve them and find reasonable solutions for them, we just fall for it, which is to take our whole life in problem-solving its non-existent problems.

If you tell me that you really can see now that most, if not all, of our time spent with the mind is in solving non-existent problems, then you would have made much headway. It's like that; the mind operates in fear. Yes, a non-existent problem. Evaluate this, really evaluate the problems that you work on with the mind, and I can tell you that they just don't exist.

Like if you read the Yoga Vasistha, it has many such illustrations which help us get rid of all of these fantasies in the mind. Because he'll say, you know, the eighth son of a woman who never had any children, that son was going into battle one day, and then during the time that he was going to battle, he started dreaming about something, you see, and that dream never happened. But in the dream, there was another one who never had any children. So the eighth son of that one then had this particular problem, you see. So it takes you on this road which does exactly what the mind does.

So if you just return to the basics—what is spirituality? What am I in this form?—then it keeps us grounded to things which are substantive instead of falling for the mind's non-existent things that it wants us to keep our focus on constantly. And life is running out. The problem is never solved at the level at which it is created. Never solved at the level at which it is created. And it's for one to find that there is no problem. There is no problem. And what is the way to find that? To bring yourself into the holy space every moment.

Thank you so much, Father, to remember that there is no heaven except God's presence.

Yeah. If even if there is a realm called heaven, it is heavenly only because God lives there. You see, and now you are being pointed to while you're seemingly alive in this realm—we are being pointed to where God lives, where God is present. So that is heaven, and there cannot be a problem in heaven. It won't be much of heaven, would it? Nobody in Indian history has said, 'Oh, I was in Swarga Loka and every day I dealt with this problem and then that problem.' Everybody would say, 'What kind of Swarga Loka was it?' It doesn't sound very different; it's like the TV show The Good Place. So it's not much of heaven if every day we have to grapple with problems.

So, it's not about meeting it at the level of problem creation and trying to satisfy it there. It is about going to God's presence because God's presence is heaven and there cannot be a problem in heaven. Abidance. Abidance is good. Why you go to that place where you're going now? No, I'm asking rhetorically as a point. Why you're going there is the realm of problems and suffering. The way it came now was more like: come to the right place. Because we can say 'abidance' even from the wrong place. To say abidance is not to abide. That's it. That's more like it. Is this the place where the thought arises?

It is the place where everything arises, but there are some things that we have to chase and other things that we don't have to chase from what is arising. Either chase the perfume of love, chase peace, compassion, kindness through knowledge inside, or chase thoughts. Yeah, that is the only tree in the whole Garden of Eden which is advised that you don't touch. The knowledge, actually.

I experienced the harm of touching the wrong tree, or the only tree.

Exactly. So the Garden of Eden arises from that holy place in our heart, presence in our heart. Everything is beautiful as long as you don't go to this apple from the wrong tree. So now our whole life is representative of our insistence on eating from that tree. All our life, the human condition is representative of that. The way to return is to just follow this simple thing. There are millions of fruits in His kingdom, in His garden. And if He says just don't touch this one fruit, is that too much to ask? If all that we have to do to express our love for the Lord, for God, is just not eat that one fruit, is that too much to ask? No, 'I love you more than everything, but I will not listen to even this simple thing. There are a thousand cakes in the fridge, but I will eat that fruit which You don't want.' What kind of love would that be?

Love is there for us to feast on. Joy is there for us to feast on. Knowledge, capital K knowledge inside, was there for us to feast on. Why do we have to indulge in thought so much? So every story in the scripture—Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita, all the stories in the Bible, all the stories in the Ramayan—everything is happening in our life right now. That is the point. Of course they are history, and they are pointers. He has shown us one simple way to show Him that we love: to turn away from the content of our thoughts. Could He have made it any simpler? Actually, it's not even a turning away. It's just a passing by. Don't go on the train. Don't go there. Just don't go there. This is representative of like a stubborn insistence that 'I will make sense of that bad apple.'

And the knowledge of spirituality doesn't make it easier, okay? So, pick something from there and just blow my head off. I mean, make it spectacular. Go for it. So like our insistence is so much, 'No, I will find a gem in all those rotten ideas. I will find a gem which is just amazing.' Then that's too much.

How do you detox, Father, when you had so many apples?

Satsang is a detox. True. But if you come to the detox and you smuggle some of the stash, then whatever... you need to uproot the whole tree, otherwise it's tempting. Or it's not even tempting. Suppose in all of the satsang you've been told, 'Just let go of the next thought.' Remember you said that I've moved on? Actually, even this is my original point only, which is: don't believe your next thought. I've ever said that in satsang. So, moved on.

So now if throughout satsang you heard this, and throughout satsang you're countering that by 'But I think, but I think, but I think,' you see, then there's not really going to be a detox because there are not strong enough mental detectors in satsang. All of us can smuggle our ideas into it. Brahman is here, as long as you don't forget that for good. Say hello to Garina. I had to allow this thought.

You know, that day when you came with some kachoris, I still have your kachori on my shrine and I'm very happy for it. But when you brought them, there was this urge to have one, and it was full of light somehow. And I thought, 'No, you don't need a kachori, stay back.' And that simple opposition provoked so much contraction and such a friction in me, and in the end, I had one. And it's sometimes the same because Garina came and I wanted to say something, and then I thought, 'No, this is a thought, Father said don't pick your thoughts.' We don't hear you anymore. I don't see anything.

By the way, when trying to prove my point of view right or identifying with judging thoughts, yes, that's when we get pulled into these. Mind comes strong; it seems overwhelming. So let's just make a deal. When the mind comes strong, I won't say anything about those times. When the mind is not so strong, I waste a lot of time. When the mind is not so strong, scrolling, wasting time. How come you don't report that as much? You only report when it's really strong, 'What should I do?' But when it's not so strong, what do you do? Is your report really that when it's not so strong, 'I'm so deeply immersed in my heart'? Is that the implication of your report? I know.

The mind itself wants to pit us against an energy which is seemingly unsurmountable. 'What do I do with that?' But what do we do? How many minutes in a day is the mind really so strong? Right? That's very little power, little energy. It gets tired very fast unless we keep feeding it more and more with belief. Feeding it more and more with belief—that seems to energize it more. By itself, it doesn't have much power. So suppose it is very powerful; out of sixteen hours of waking, one hour it is really powerful. It paralyzes us with separation, with hate, with guilt, with all of this—one hour. What about the other fifteen? Out of the fifteen, how many are spent in remembering God's name, in doing self-inquiry? So these are just the subtle tricks of the mind.

Okay. So, can we make a deal? Should we make a deal? Long satsang once a week or shorter satsang twice or thrice a week? What you all prefer? You type it. Twice. Okay. Shorter twice. Okay. Shorter. And shorter is how short? One hour. I realize that the problem is not all of you. Actually, I'm barking up the wrong tree. The problem is me. I love the sound of my own voice. That's me. Everyone is saying one vote for longer ones. Okay. Father, we could have a contemplation or a satsang recording before we meet you for short satsang. Let's see. Let's see how it develops. Okay, Sam has had her hand up for a long time. You don't need to raise it.

I'm waiting for your invitation, Father. Thank you. I want to bring something to you. You can hear me clearly, right? Yes. So you just mentioned that mind has not so much power. You just said this, unless we are energizing it with our belief. So maybe this is what I'm doing.

She's had her hand up for a long time. You don't need to raise it. I'm just looking at the meeting speed.

I'm waiting for your invitation, Father. Thank you.

Okay, I give you full anytime invitation.

Thank you. Um, so I want to bring something to you. You also just—can you hear me clearly, right? Yes. So you just mentioned that mind has not so much power. You just said this unless—and huh—it doesn't have so much power unless we are energizing it with our belief. So maybe this is what I'm doing. So that's why I want to come to you because in my case, how I experience is that if there is no mind, if I feel one with God, I feel like the whole entire where I am, like everything, the field is energized by God's grace. But even if a little mind comes in, I feel like this mind energy, which is me, is just affecting the whole space, the whole field. And that's why I cannot even separate myself because also disturbance comes, tries to stop it, comes wherever I am. And it even increases recently; like, I even started to feel like mind power is greater than your power. But thankfully, in every satsang, I experience that you just sorted out this. But this fear is here and um, it is related with something actually. I feel so blessed by God in my whole entire life. I'm so grateful. I don't write you like this, but I'm so grateful in general, always, not even general. But I have issues about working, as you know, and I always try to work but it doesn't work, Father. I don't know why, but it affects me and this causes what I mentioned in the beginning; like, it affects my whole field and it's like a confusion within me. I need to take—I don't know what to say. I want to work but I cannot do so because this is the most important. It's not just—yeah, there is this thing when we take it to God.

If you were to take this particular situation or any situation around work to God through the heart temple, what happens then after that?

I don't know. I think I don't know.

What happens is what the mind wants us to do with problems is to try and deal with them, face them with our own non-existent power. Because the thing to do is to just keep bringing everything that is bothering us into our heart temple and see how things unfold with that. Now the mind will tell us that we don't have the time or patience for that. But I'm not asking for additional time. I'm saying the same amount of time that you would spend worrying about something or trying to solve something by yourself, use that time to bring it to God's light, to God's presence.

Father, what does it mean to bring it to God's light and God's presence?

It's very—thank you for asking this. It's very simple. I want to share with all of you that just like if we had somebody in the world, a best friend that we could bring it to, say to the best friend, 'I'm really troubled about this, I don't know what to do, I'm full of confusion, do you have any advice for me, what should I do?' In the same way, with the same innocence, we bring it to God in our heart. It can be in words like this or we just carry the intention like this to share it with God in our heart. Now as you continue in that process, your faith will deepen because you will find definitely one of two things will happen. Okay, definitely one of two things will happen. One is that the problem itself may go away, and everyone would love to have that outcome. You see, and that happens many times. And the second is that although the external problem may be the same, we become calm. We become—we feel like some strength has come to deal with this situation. And I don't know somewhere.

So, like it is said in the Bible, or I'm paraphrasing one of the teachers, they said that sometimes He calms the storm and sometimes He makes us calm in the middle of the storm. And I've seen this very clearly in the time where my son recently was in the ICU and we almost lost his physical life in this way. But in that storm, with my prayer, He calmed me in the middle of the storm. So, did I lose faith before that? Yes, I did. Was I behaving almost like in the Middle East maybe for a few minutes? But in my prayer, I came to a point where He just gave me this faith, this courage, this patience to accept His will no matter what may happen. So did He take the medical situation away instantly? He did not. But He made me strong that night and I was able to say, 'Let Thy will be done.' It would not have happened if I hadn't prayed that night. So I can say with full faith, when we pray to Him deeply, sometimes the problem itself goes away, and on other times He gives us all the strength to deal with whatever the problem. The question is, what was the prayer at that time? The prayer was half tantra, half praying, half crying, half—you can imagine, it was the endlessness basically.

Yeah, this would be my next question. So yeah, because I don't feel it's easy for me to deepening in the prayer and um, actually I want to—

I would say like we present ourselves to our mind a lot in these difficult times. But presenting ourselves to the mind is by trying to think of what is the solution: 'Can I go to some other doctor? Can we fly to another city where there's a specialist? Can we do all of this?' So we make ourselves present to our mind. Then our mental solution—we take that same time and present ourselves to our heart, to the holiness which is present in us even in these difficult times. What happens over there is not that important, whether we are using the right words, that is not so important. Just to make ourselves available to Him in that way and allow ourselves to be natural. Like, we don't have to become—I've said often, we don't have to become Shakespearean when we're praying: 'Lord, Thou art the biggest,' you know? We don't have to become very fancy, just how we communicate naturally. Sometimes when we breathe and we're thinking, we're using some very big words and fancy communication, or we inwardly start talking very loudly or something. So we don't have to become dramatic in our prayer. We just—like He's our best friend, He's our Father, we know everything and He knows everything. Just present ourselves without any pretenses as normally as possible. That's all we can do.

You don't have some special mantras. We don't have to do some special processes in those times especially. Just be as available, as natural, and communicate. Be open to receiving.

Father, I have little questions too, little. So um, one is that sometimes I don't feel so much to use words even to pray or ask, but that time I will just simply chant. Sometimes I don't even want to use and open the machine, so I think it's okay. And the second thing that—maybe you answered that before, but—

The first one, I just want to add something so it's more complete. That when we don't want to use words, then we just make sure that we're not using words in our mind or in our heart. It should not be that I'm communicating in my mind, 'Oh, what's going to happen? What should I do? Should I do like this? Should I do like that?' and it's just the mind talking to itself in this as if it's a two-way conversation. So then we become silent even in our heads. But if you feel like we want to express something, then express that in your heart as well. Think of it as a physical church, a physical temple, a physical mosque, a physical holy place. Like you go to the tomb of Ram Ji. Think of it like that, like you've gone to the tomb. Now, do you want to speak your heart out or do you want to be silent? Both are good. But don't have any constraints on yourself at that time. You see, be free like a child would be.

Yeah. Um, maybe I can ask the second one. Yeah. Uh, sometimes people are asking for prayer in the group for sick people or in general. Um, just a simple question: how to pray for that, Father? Um, yeah, like sometimes I do and I don't feel so much focused sometimes, but I want to pray. So what I can do is just simply do it. So if you want to say something, how to pray for them? Yeah, that's the other question. Thank you.

So, one thing we must not do—first, the one thing we must not do is just say that I'm going to pray for someone and then not do it. So that's the first thing. So if we say that we are going to pray for someone, we must pray for someone. That's the first thing. Second is how to pray for that one. Both ways: we can just remember that one and bring that memory into—like, stay with that intention for them to be healed in our heart. We can just say, 'Lord God, please heal this one, bless this one.' Or we can use the words, 'Bless this one, have mercy on'—if you know the name, or if you know the relationship, 'this one's father,' or if you know the name, 'have mercy on this one,' whatever the name may be. It's a very, very simple, very natural process, like you're standing in front of God. What would you tell Him? 'Please Father, please God, please heal this one, please help this one.' Or if a family is struggling with something, 'Please give them the strength and courage to know that there is no death and that that one is fully alive with them in their hearts.' So just a heartfelt moment.

But let's all make a promise that if we are going to say, 'I'm going to pray for this one,' we pray for that one at least once. Let's not do the lip service where we are just saying 'praying' and then we don't actually pray at all, because it's very good for home, it's very good for us. Any reminder to prayer is very good for us. We take that one—like five seconds, do one prayer with that one's name. Five seconds. We can take five seconds if we really love our brother and sister. But it's very good for our soul because in that busy day, we may have taken out only those five seconds in that day to be with God.

Um, so yeah, we just need to focus, right Father? Because I feel energies are restless, so that's why I do it; it also helps me. But we need to focus, as I understood.

I understand. Like what words—no words are coming, just lose the—

Um, thank you so much, Father. And of course, I just want to pray for all those who suffer any kind, especially for—not especially, but for physical sickness, because I know somehow that it can be very, very challenging and so many souls are waiting for prayer here. So in your presence and in this satsang, I just want to just send out your grace and all our heartfelt prayers for whoever needs prayer. And I also want to ask for one of our relatives, the husband of my cousin Ahmed. They just found out recently that he's in the last stage of cancer. And yeah, my mother asked for a prayer for him, at least to ease his pain and at least for him to sleep.