Learn To See Only With the Eyes of the Heart - 24th November 2025

So what is the mode of knowledge that we rely on? How to deal with your money situation? Return to the head and then come back to the heart. Paka, or the classical 'I know the answer intellectually but how do I live it?' I practice. Relationship issues? Atma can't handle that. And most importantly, what about true knowledge, true recognition, true love? That is why it is imperative that we learn to be in the right place, which is of being, whatever may be happening on the outside. Okay? But so only living there can we know how to know and do we know what is reality with a capital R.

So all grasping with the false instrument is only going to lead to more trouble eventually. Although it may scratch an intellectual itch at the moment—'I need to know, tell me please tell'—yeah, like that. So it may scratch that for the moment, but it's fundamentally not satisfactory because what happens is that the intellect finds another problem to dwell on. Okay? So in spirituality, are you going from just jumping from problem to problem, or is there a deepening role for spirit in our lives? And maybe in life also, are we just jumping from problem to problem with a few moments or days of relief in the middle, or is there a fundamental peace which is unshakable except in the strongest of attacks, mind attacks?

You see, so one who lives in the heart, they are rarely troubled in lives. Not that they become 100% unshakable, but they are shaken only with the strongest calamity, strongest tsunami. The point of the pointers is only if it gets you there. What's a good metaphor for that? But I'm saying that the pointer is not to be used as knowledge. Do you get a sense of what I mean? The pointer is not meant to be used as knowledge. You see? So we must stop doing that. If you're doing that, it's very popular to do in Advaita Vedanta. Most people you talk to in spirituality, I won't just say Advaita Vedanta, they will tell you a pointer as if it is knowledge. See, I know so much. It's just a pointer that you... that's good. I would have been happy to have mentioned if I did. I don't know.

So, this makes sense. How many of us are mistaking words to be knowledge and clamoring for more of that, or a conceptual understanding pretending as if it is knowledge? That is dangerous because then we feel complacent that yes, we are on the right track, we are learning more and more. See what I learned. So remember that, like he said, it is just the menu, or words on the menu won't take care of or satisfy your hunger. So what is being offered to you in Satsang in the form of words are just pointers. Knowledge has to be dug or explored in the true place.

So I've given you the good news. What is the bad news? The bad news is that most of what you learn in the heart you will not be able to put into words, or anybody will not be able to put into words. What is the point of a knowledge which you can't put into words? That's good. What is the point of a knowledge which can't be put into words? Pointless? It's not pointless. It may seem pointless to others. But this Atma, this self-knowledge, brings you from Maya into God. You see, it's not a knowledge that can be put into words, but it is a knowledge that carries you, transforms you from a servant of the mind to a lover of God. From the obsession with thinking to a life of peace. From darkness into light.

And this light is what is called the dazzling darkness. And now the light which seems so bright is actually the darkness. The mind scares us when we go within. It's too empty. It's too dark. It's too lonely. Alone. But there your soul is being nourished. And the more we get attached to that which is seen in the outer light, the more we are getting diseased in a way. So to come to this true Satsang in your heart is to go from disease to wellness. Because whose light is shining there today? Let's take a call. Let's take a call that either all the sages were right from all the religions, all the traditions—they said the same thing—so we take a call that either they were right or what my mind tells me is right. Because you will not most likely be able to resolve the conflict between your thinking and the truths.

But what do we want? We want what we think? We want knowledge from a truer place. There is no conclusion that I can offer you that is the right conclusion. There's only a place which I can point you to which is the right place. Everything that I can say I can contradict as well because words are too linear to capture the essence of reality. But that place—which is also words to call it the place—but just a pointer to it: the heart temple, the sense of being, the I am, God's presence within, Atma Darshan. All these words point to the same thing.

Now in most temples you have to keep your slippers outside. In this temple what do you have to keep outside? The head. So what is the right recipe for our life? How much head and how much heart? What is our idea of what is true? That which logic tells us or that which our senses tell us? They tell you that up is up and down is down. That yesterday is gone and tomorrow is to come. Find the place where there is no up or down. There is no yesterday or tomorrow. Only then will you find the holy place. The true Ganga is there. The true Kaaba is there. True Jerusalem is there. Ji. But if we don't leave our thinking, if we don't leave our separation, if we don't leave the 'me', then we'll spend a conceptual life because we haven't actually lived.

You don't want to look back 50, 60, 70 years from now and say, "Yes, there was a point to what this man was saying." You see, we have to look now. You have to test where these pointers are taking us. You have to ride on top of them to take you to the heart. Use them as an elevator. If you just hear them and keep them in your head, nothing will happen. It's better you never heard them. But if they provide some inspiration to be empty of the 'me' and to stay in the light of your heart, then you have used them well. How many of us are more comfortable understanding conceptually rather than living in the heart? Thank you. I asked rhetorically mostly but that's good. Thank you.

So all of us in a way, you see, because that's the human condition, we are learning to not be so concerned about the conclusions that we are coming to, not be so attached to them. Anyway, remember that there is no such thing as a spiritual debate. Concepts. Fighting has nothing to do with spirituality. Have some... not that it's leading the... what happens is that in various ways the way in which we enjoy the words of Satsang changes in a way. That's what I'm hearing, that earlier it was to try and understand what is, you see, and maybe that has a place initially, but then later it just becomes like a sharing of love and the words are sweet but they are incidental to the sharing of love for God, see, and sharing of love for each other which is the same. So it becomes more like almost like hearing music. But don't just only hear this as music and everything else seriously.

What a privilege it is that God lives in our heart. Is it a privilege or not? Yes. Go. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Not a force field. This is very important because in today's world God has been made into a force field, especially with—and I'm responsible for that in a small tiny way—when we use words like consciousness and awareness, we've contributed in a way to a force-field-ification of the living light of God. Because consciousness sounds more like magnetism than like the supremely intelligent being, a sense. You see? So you feel like... so you see many of the reports: 'I stay with the sense I am. I stay with the sense I am,' but just like I stay on the east corner of my house. There is no reverence about it. There is no sense of whose presence that is.

These are difficult things to explain. We have a sense of what we just make a consciousness out of it. You say, 'I have to stay with consciousness as I have to take two disciplines a day.' It's become like that. Like medicine for me rather than the love relationship that we are trying to create. One that will ultimately swallow us up in the recognition of oneness or in that which is called the divine union. Either way, whichever term we use, it is the same. See, so it's become like a godless spirituality where you're supposed to, meant to stay with this particular force field and then you'll be free.

It's become like that, like medicine for me rather than the love relationship that we are trying to create—one that will ultimately swallow us up in the recognition of oneness or in that which is called the divine union. Either way, whichever term we use, it is the same. See, so it's become like a godless spirituality where you're supposed to be meant to stay with this particular force field and then you'll be free. Just go sit in the sauna for two hours every day and then your health will be fine. Stop that.

Still there. My hand to your point, what you just said was like emptiness, but sounds like let me use that word consciousness, that belovedness in it.

That's exactly what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And I feel like if you look at Buddhism, if you look at Zen, they are actually very pure paths. And because they realized that any label can actually get in the way of that union, you see, and that is why the whole my whole understanding of Buddhism and Shunyata changed when I read Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti. Chandrakirti was his main disciple, I forget his name, but they were—I've shared this in satsang before—they were attacked quite vigorously by the Buddhists themselves because they said somebody asked, 'Is there Buddha?' He'd say, 'No,' you see. 'Is Buddha to be revered?' 'No.' 'Is there the Self?' 'No.' Everything is no, you see.

So then he was vigorously attacked saying that then why are you in this Buddhist sangha if there is no Buddha? If there is no Buddha-nature, you see, which is exactly what we are talking about, Buddha-nature, then why do you call yourself a Buddhist? You see, he said, 'Brother, you're misunderstanding the point, and the point is that all grasping, all concepts are separation, are suffering.' So true Buddha-nature is to be empty even of the notion of Buddha-nature. So that pure path of just pure negation leads us to an emptiness beyond the notion of emptiness. That is what is rare, right? And in that, the revelation is exactly the same. It has to be that Buddha, the Buddha is right there. That is why he said, 'I am a Buddha.'

So then it's so beautiful that fundamentally there is no difference between the Neti Neti paths, the Buddhist, Zen, or the path of Shunyata in any way in which they follow, and the apophatic paths which are posted about of the Orthodox at least. And I don't know which traditions follow that exactly the same. What is the difference? You do the Neti Neti: 'Not this.' God is not this, or reality is not this, not this, because everything that comes and goes, that changes, is not real. So not this, not this, not this, not this, not this. I'm not going in detail; all of you are familiar with this. There you come to a point where you can no longer say 'not this,' isn't it? But it's not a point at which you can say 'this,' you see.

So how to communicate that? You can neither say 'not this' nor can you say 'this.' So in Vedanta we may say this or that is Brahman. In Buddhism we may say that not even this is able to follow. We have to do it live, then we'll get a sense. Just you come to a point where no words are applicable and the notion of thisness or thatness is no longer there. So your heart knowledge shows you that this is all there is. I am that in the heart. But if you make it an 'Aham Brahmasmi' in the head, then you'll just become an Advaita jerk. So what's beautiful is that the inner journey has to be the same because we are universally the same. It is just the ways in which they expressed they are, those are different.

It's not that there was a committee between Adi Shankara, Buddha, St. Gregory Palamas. They got together and said, 'Let's do it this way.' There was no Zoom call possible in those days. And yet they came to the same realization. But everybody was using different languages, different ways of pointing. So those differences crept up. You see, now what is unfortunate is that when we make it conceptual, the Shunyata, that is very dangerous. When we make it conceptual, the Brahman, that is very dangerous. When we make it very conceptual, the love of God or the spirit, and that is very dangerous. Dangerous to our—well, dangerous not just to our spiritual growth but dangerous to the world because so many, most of the wars in the world have happened on the basis of non-existent differences.

So the path is universally the same. The language is different. One of my teachers told me that what we do is we get the banana, we keep the banana peel and throw away the fruit. That is what happens in most religion in today's world. Why does it happen? Because there's no benefit in saying that you're one and universal, same as everyone else. There's no outer benefit of that. The outer benefit is if I can rouse you up and say, 'Be proud of your religion. Yours is the best.' Then you feel like you got instantly transformed. We love pride. Feeling pride. What is it? Father Richard Rohr said the quickest way to feel good about ourselves is to put another down. It's such a primitive, silly way of living to see duality everywhere and somehow we always end up on the right side of duality. 'Mine is the best.' It's a very, very primitive way of living. Yeah.

Open yourselves up. Yeah. What is wasting your day today or and probably your life? No conclusion, because our conclusions make us clueless. Just breathe it all out. Be empty of what you think you know or have understood. What have you wasted most time on in your life? Chasing and living under the shadow of the delusion of being right. You see the sacrifice we make? Sacrifice the Lord's presence just to be right. And it's not worth it. So what if you become the rightest one who has ever lived? There is no award for that. Everyone will hate you first because everybody wants that same thing.

But it's deeper than that. I feel like we feel very unsettled when we don't have a notion to hold on to. So what is a good way to look at that? Ram Ji is sitting with us. Maybe His presence is there but we are going money, money, money. Spirituality is the path where all temptation is around you but you're going around. Which way we done? Okay. See you later. There.

What? Yeah. Remember I... yeah. Very good. So the fundamental thing is that dark or light, both are perception. That is clear. Now that light of the Atma is neither this perception nor that perception, although it may have the subtlest sort of vibration which may make you feel like it can be perceived. Okay. But let me not complicate it. So let's say it's beyond dark and light. These eyes are closed. So the perception of the black empty space, that continues. But our mode of knowledge switches and that mode of knowledge shows us things which are—you see, 'things' is a word which cannot be used there—but shows us truths in a way which is not, we are not able to put into words as to how do I know that I am that?

How do I know that God's presence is here? That it's not some brain sensation or electromagnetic phenomena, that it is God Himself. How do we know that? So this perceiving continues, but a deeper knowledge in an unspeakable way starts to transmit itself—and all these words we have to use loosely—but transmits itself to us from the true Satguru presence, the Atma itself. So how do we learn these things? We can never really say what do I perceive. Like if you were to really say, you say it is God's presence, how do you know it is God, you see? Or how do you know it's not just some sensation like the rest of the body sensation? And I would say because it's not a sensation and I just know. But I know more than I know anything in my head. You see, because the texture of this knowledge is different. You see, and that is why sages have literally bent their lives on this truth, see, to the extent of being persecuted in the strongest possible ways. Yeah.

Yeah. What came out after that session after a while was of my describing it, wanted something, wanted to be there beyond that. I actually don't know.

It's very important to register this at least once because many times we can get stuck in the mistaken notion, you see. And what happens is that even if you were to follow a guided meditation, it can feel like our attention is going deeper and deeper and deeper. Then at that point where the attention goes where there's no perception, that which we call no perception, but the darkness is still perceived. You see, so because our attention has gone so deep and yet the darkness is still perceived and there is no thing that we call an object. You see, but now on this path we are including darkness also as an object. You see, so now what looks at even that withdrawal of attention and that darkness being perceived, does that—is that dark or light?

You see, then the mind might try to imagine some transparency. It's none of that. It is just so beyond perception and description that—but that point of attention withdrawal and us perceiving like a dark space and confusing that to be awareness because a lot of awareness's description sounds like that: nothing happened there, nobody is born, nobody dies, so nothing happened. But even that is perceived. What is aware of that perception? You see, what is the attribute of that? Does it have the attribute darkness? Is it? They are encouragement. The encouragement for us to stay is otherwise it would be so, so difficult that the teachers tell us even if it takes years—and I've been giving Shabri's example, 60 years—we must spend in the heart temple even if there is no sense of God's presence, you see.

So these consolations, as St. Teresa of Avila calls them, are very useful because these consolations come from the heart and really nothing in the world can produce them. They're not reproducible through any material consumption. Then just by sitting I feel a deeper presence of love in my heart. How can it? So that keeps us involved in that mystery, not giving up. What is the color of that one that is aware even of the most empty of dark empty space where attention seems to just withdraw completely and it seems like we are surrounded by a pristine darkness? So that point is very easy to confuse as awareness.

Many of you after hearing me may start doubting that you have any idea what I'm talking about because that is the nature of the mind. The mind will never be invited to that party. You see, the mind is never going to be invited to the party. So it will always say, 'No, you've not had this. You don't know what this is.' And it is impossible to say whether the revelation comes or it was always there. As you find it, you know that it was always there. But there is a once you find it. Strange. Is it all double or something? Every sage would report that 'I found it' or 'it revealed itself to me,' but 'I saw it was always there.' How these things are beyond the mind. How can they say that it was always there? They are also saying, 'We just found it,' or 'We found it then when this happened,' and they also say it was always there. Better not to worry about understanding it. Better to recognize it.

How to recognize it? I hope all of you have understood that there's only one step you can take and 99 steps God takes. Yeah. One step, the rest of the work He does. What a beautiful job. What is being asked of us is to drop the work. Which job tells you drop the work? That is being asked of us. Drop the mental work mostly. Just drop the work. That's what's being asked of us. If you were paid for a job like that, you'd all love it. Just show up and no work. But the most important work is like that. But I'm well aware of the fact that because our habit is to work on, constantly work on our narrative of ourselves, it can seem like very difficult.

What do I mean by work on the narrative? This is what you struggle with. 'What is happening to me?' you tell, because it's uncomfortable to not be able to situate yourself in the narrative. We hate hearing it from the world that nothing is happening in your life. It sounds like a waste. But this nothing is the most difficult nothing. The Buddha became the Buddha because of nothing. All the sages became sages because of nothing.

If we only work on our narrative of ourselves, it can seem very difficult. What do I mean by work on the narrative? This is what you struggle with. 'What is happening to me?' you tell, because it's uncomfortable to not be able to situate yourself in the narrative. We hate hearing it from the world that nothing is happening in your life. It sounds like a waste. But this nothing is the most difficult nothing. The Buddha became the Buddha because of nothing. All the sages became sages because of nothing. It's not to be taken lightly—or in a way, it has to be taken very lightly. He shouldn't have mentioned. As long as our negation seems like a construction, we must construct to do something to do nothing. Till then, we must do. We will not feel like if to come to effortlessness feels like effort, we must make that effort. What we are unwilling to give up on is making us give up on God. What is that that you have to see for yourself? Everyone has at least one thing. All we can do is keep working at it. One tiny step more towards God. One tiny step more. And soon He embraces you. That's all.

It can seem very difficult, but at the end you will say, 'How did this happen? I didn't do anything at all.' It's just that one tiny step towards the every day, every moment, one thought. What can get in the way of that? Everything tries to get in the way of that. But what can really get in the way? When basically when can we not turn to God? Yes, but when can we not—like it's impossible to turn? I'm saying everything tries to make us relationship if you... Even our spiritual understanding, pride, spiritual pride, all that tries.

Father, could you repeat please because we lost the sound for a bit. You said something about relationships or...

Yeah. Yeah. I said that everything tries to get in the way, you see, of us turning to God. But is there actually ever a time where something can really, like, physically get in the way? It's not possible because the most intimate—in fact, to say most intimate is too much reasons is there. What is a good way to explain? What's the most intimate perception that you have? Before even the eyes open, you are already perceiving some images or some memories or some thoughts or some emotion. Now suppose emotion seems very intimate, isn't it? Very close to home. But God's presence is prior to that. So the emotional layer cannot get in the way. Nothing can actually block you from being in God's presence.

You see, and of course the ultimate reality of God is the one who is aware of even that which is the sense of being, the most intimate, the primordial vibration. What is in the context of what you're saying right now?

Yeah. Is that kind of the closest in the perceptive world? Because God must be even behind that. Behind that enjoyment of Krishna. He must be behind that. Prior to that, behind that.

Um, one of the most beautiful things that happens in satsang is that we allow ourselves to feel God. We feel like, of course, there is all the support energetically, and I've often said that satsang is the mini replica of Atma Darshan. Mini replica just to give you a taste. But I've noticed that if you just were to walk into, say, a meeting room and say, 'Now for the next one hour I'm free to enjoy God's presence,' see, then even the construct texture of what the meeting would feel like would be different. Not at all putting down the beautiful session we had. The singing praises to God carries its own spiritual power. Of course, we just when we learn to just live in a way that we allow ourselves to be with God, then we find that most life situations become like Gita. Most, not all, because there's never a time that God doesn't want to meet us like that.

You just—and that is the power of trust and faith. Just feel like, 'I have faith that I come into satsang and I will dive into God's light.' Then you start to see that you drop the defenses and it just... so a lot of it has to do with our allowing, actually giving ourselves the permission to just be in love with God. You notice that as you try, you go to your room today and you say, 'I've come to kirtan with Krishna and I'm just going to... it's going to be so beautifully immersive, let's see how it happened.' All these crazy experiments. It's also very dangerous because one way to run a scam spirituality is that, you know, you first you put some people there who are going to tell everyone, 'See, see how beautiful it was. Wait, wait till this satsang starts. Then you see what all...' then you allow yourself to feel that. Many people say, 'Yeah, you are that.' So again, just making sure I'm repeating: there's great power in Gita, beautiful, but at least as much as our allowing ourselves to fall into our... what is it? I don't know what scripture is.

And if you, as we are all practicing, not to allow our mind to get into the picture, you'll see one day outside Satsang Hall there was a beautiful bird chirping and then there was the ambulance noise also, and I literally could not find any more enjoyment in this or that. You just... but in the mind, 'Oh, that's a beautiful sound of the bird chirping,' then you open yourself to enjoying that and say, 'Oh, that's noise from the ambulance,' then we set our perspective in this way. But if we learn, as we are learning, to look at everything as God's prasad, God's offering to us, then again, then we're not so much in that sort of duality. Of course, most of you don't like hearing that because you say, 'That's why we are stuck here in Bangalore in this noisy street.' That I don't enjoy nature, I just feel like it's secondary to the nature in our heart.

Just one only try to this: not label, don't make distinguish, don't distinguish 'this is noise, this is sweet music.' You'll find drum beats and beautiful musical tones and everything. Okay. When you broaden yourselves and you cut out all duality, or you try to cut out all duality, you see that how much they holding on to. Leading a life as if we are living inside a container of flesh. Who wants to live life? The problem is in thinking and not noticing. If you were to notice, you will see that the flesh container is contained in you. The sensations of the flesh container are contained in you. But our thinking tells us that we are in this container. Not difficult. You just have to notice all the sensations you feel. Are they within you or are they at your boundary? Only the mind says that my boundary is here. There's some questions online. Let's go to Nur.

Father. Namaste. Uh, Father, when you were saying about being empty of oneself... yeah, I have noticed that I would say out of sixteen waking hours, the intention to be with God and in the act of cooking, I have not gone beyond one hour so far. But constantly in the remembrance that this... I'm not able to understand how do you become empty of yourself because there's this constant reminder of your name and your form and your doership and relationship. So this emptying of me can is only when I'm in satsang, Father, with you, or when I'm sitting with the God's name and beads or listening and chanting. Otherwise, this emptiness of myself is something that I'm actually struggling with right now. So I wanted to bring it to your feet and understand how do I really become empty of this concept of me?

Very good, very good. So what if we switch it and say you are empty now, don't fill yourself up? What would you do? So if emptiness did not become a place to get to, but our very starting point, so we just remain empty-handed like this. That's our starting point. Like this, you're empty right now. You're empty. Whether you like it or not, this moment you're already empty. You see now how to become full.

An email might just pop up, Father, or a call might just come.

So email come mostly from the mind.

Yes.

So the email comes. The coming of the email in the mind is not yet enough to make us full. Just notice that like the sky, we are empty. The cloud can come. The cloud can come, the cloud can go. There's no problem. When does it feel like we become small or constricted? We have to do something more with that thought.

Yeah.

You see, so we have to buy into the content of it. So that buying into the content of it to give it truth value... the mind may say right now, 'You better reply to that message, otherwise you will lose a big opportunity.' You see, now in that narrative is the identity of the 'me.' The more we practice allowing it to come and go, the more we get used to remaining empty. So the better way to say—I should correct myself also—is not to say to become empty, but the better way to say it is to remain empty. Now try to become full. You see, and to remain full of the wrong stuff—not full-hearted but full-headed—is a lot of constant work. You see, so suppose you even fell for it. You fell for a thought. 'Ah, I better send that message.' That the identity makes us stressed and small. But after a second, you're empty again. So it is the mind that has to constantly work hard to keep us involved. You see, your naturalness is your emptiness.

Father, I was just curious when you... when the body was going through so much for you and still might be. Father, how do you stay in that? Because I work with patients also who have a lot of physical um... and even for myself, every time the body is... I feel when sometimes when the body is suffering or the body is in pain, there's a contraction. So Father, how... I've been very curious to understand how was your experience when the body has been going through so much.

It was... it's not easy, I have to say. It wasn't easy. It's much... the body is much, much better than it was, but when it was in that condition, it is not easy at all. I found in my case, I'm actually able to recollect very little, but whatever little I remember is that I feel I became very introverted. Like, I just wanted to be quiet and inward-facing. I didn't want to extend myself in too much stimulus on the outside, and in that because I was already meeting so much stimulus from the body itself. So something just shut down the wanting to, you know, communicate too much on the outside or to engage in long conversations and discussions and things. So I became very—I would like to believe—Mukti-facing, but I don't know whether that's pride or whether that really happened like that, but I feel that most of my time I just feel like I was just quiet. Yeah, just quiet.

But when pain was high, then the mind can seem very compelling. So it is much more difficult, and that is why I posted on the group also one time saying that now that I have the opportunity, God's grace has given this body some strength back, I want to use it more and more to share God while that opportunity is there. Because when that pain was there, it was next to impossible to share satsang. So by this, with all your prayers, this body has come back to some health. So I want to make sure that I use it in pointing to God as much as I can, because if that situation comes back again, then again this voice for God's light may not have the strength to share again. So I can't take that for granted now. I don't know if that answers your question. It is more difficult, that I can confirm for sure.

It also is very humbling. So it's very good for us in a way because pride goes out the window the second we are in pain. So most prideful people I've seen—prideful men also at times I've seen—when they were in pain, they became so humble, you see, in a minute. So it's a very humbling process and I feel grateful that it led to deeper humility here. But I just feel like I found myself my refuge by just turning inwards and staying staying there.

So beautiful, Father.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I don't... maybe just memories. Very... the others around me can share. Maybe I was just leaving and ranting all the time. I don't... but that's not, by God's grace, that's not what I remember happening too much. I may have complained a fair amount. Good. Nice. But I feel like the time to practice is when you're well.

But I just feel like I found myself my refuge by just turning inwards and staying there.

So beautiful. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I don't know, maybe just memories vary. The others around me can share. Maybe I was just leaving and ranting all the time. I don't know, but by God's grace, that's not what I remember happening too much. I may have complained a fair amount. Thank you for that. Good. Nice. But I feel like the time to practice is when you're well. So every minute that God gives us of peace and health, we have to use that to be with God, because when these things come, then to try and learn that at that time feels very difficult. So we must use the time of things going all right, either in our life situations or in the body. We must use those times really to build up the strength for when those times come, because they will come. This human condition is like that. They are unavoidable, either a relationship situation or some situation. This is good. There is no better way than to hold on to Him while this body is breathing. You see? And then I have every conviction that if you have lived like that, then He will hold on to us when this body is left also. Absolutely.

It's very fascinating to explore these ideas. The notion that we wake up the next morning, that we visited this place before—you don't really know any of this. Today is reminding me of one of the oldest satsangs because I used to say that when a dream starts, we don't feel like, 'What is this place?' We feel like if somebody asks us, 'Where are you coming from?' you'll say, 'I have walked down from my house.' They say, 'What is your name? Where were you born?' You'll tell the full story also in a dream, although the dream just started. So there's no real way of knowing that this is not one of those. A dream doesn't start with amnesia. That dream starts with the full history of that life. So all this experimentation and contemplation should make us very open and humble. Like, what do we really actually know? And it's not true what people say. Pinch yourself and see if you feel pain and pleasure in a dream. It is exactly the same. Is this the dream or is that the dream? And yet we get so attached to things which are just going to fade away. We don't know if you'll ever visit this realm again. And like he said, when we sleep tonight, it seems to have some continuity till that seems to... after that, what?

Within ourselves is the capacity to project universes, which we do in the form of dreams. This body is a part of that projection. This world is a part of that projection. Projection of consciousness. Find out what stays unchanging when the worlds change around us. What is unaffected by this world's presence and that which is aware of His presence.

Father, may I ask something about this? Because I'm happy that this subject of dreams has come up, because many times I wanted to ask you. Sometimes even in a dream, I was thinking when I wake up I want to ask Anantaji about this because sometimes the dreams seem so real. Many times I have lucid dreams; I'm aware that I'm dreaming and I'm thinking to myself, 'How is it? Who is creating this dream?' You know, this world? It's quite... and I feel that it's quite impossible for my limited person to create it because I'm not such a creative person. I'm not so artistic or so, you know, I can't even imagine those things that happen in a dream. And sometimes I dream that I'm in satsang with you or with Guru, and sometimes they also have some mystical quality, like some deep, I don't know, connection with a mystical quality of God somehow. I don't know. So I don't know who is creating it. You said something about consciousness that is projecting these worlds, but it's not my limited personal consciousness.

No, there is no such limited consciousness. Now, it is that 'I am' itself. The 'I am' emerges out of the 'I' and the world emerges out of the 'I am.' So this 'I am' is consciousness; it is God's presence. It has nothing to do with the 'me.' Like, the 'me' cannot direct it in any way. So what happens is that the mind can say, 'If it is I, if it is I am, then I should be able to direct it.' Not this one. This one cannot. So it is you, but not this one.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because there is the big mind and the small mind. Sometimes in India it may seem strange to us because we are used to mind being the villain of the piece, but the big mind is the broad consciousness, but the small mind is the mind of thoughts and intellect which narrates the story of the 'me.' So when people say that the world is a projection of the mind, they mean the bigger mind, the consciousness.

And is that bigger mind also... can we call it God?

Yeah. Its very nature is loving. Its very nature is to love.

No, I mean God. Can we call it God?

Of course. I prefer God. I prefer to call it God. Like we were saying earlier in satsang, that 'consciousness' just makes it seem like a force field or something.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, like the way science explains dreams is quite different because they say like the brain, I don't know, goes over some impressions from the day. Sometimes it happens like that, that some things that happened... like sometimes the dreams don't really have a mystical quality to them. They are like just stupid in a way. But sometimes they can be really helpful in spiritual growth, for myself at least.

Yeah. So one thing is very clear: that even if it is not, but suppose that it is the brain, then whose directions does the brain follow? We don't know how to create a neuron or fire a neuron. But the funny thing is that when we say the dream is in the brain, then in the dream also there is a body; why not in that brain? Anytime we say that the brain is projecting this also, you see, then what is projecting that? Because both are in the same field. Let me say like that: that the brain is projecting this world around us. But the brain that the brain surgeon can see, what is projecting that? Because both the body and the brain are in the same field of perception.

Yes. Thank you, Father. Thank you. This satsang is feeling more like a dream today, actually. It's like a satsang from ten years ago.

Thank you, Father. Right. So we are in satsang Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Then you can move back to Monday.