If the Greatest Guide Is in Your Heart, Then All You Have to Do Is Follow - 8th January 2024

And in our expecting it, is it important that we don't defer the expectation for the future, but that we expect it now? You make the prayer and you notice the result. Then you make the prayer, then you notice the result. And while saying it this way, it may seem a bit strange and oppressive, as if, you see, we have to do this as a task. No. But the praying itself is a surrender; it is a letting go of our ego, and that itself is full of love, peace, joy. So it is not like the worldly idea of 'apply, apply, no reply' here. The application process itself is full of love; it's full of peace. So really, this project to come to God's presence must become the only purpose of our life, if we have to give our life a purpose.

Does this mean that we have to let go of the world and the world's activity? No. But what to do, when to do—all of that must only come from His will, not from my own terms. So, not from my mind, but from my heart.

And that's a little bit where the question comes from as well. Because I noticed that when I pray—not only the Jesus prayer that you gave us, but even if, like, you have advice sometimes that if we're worried about something, it's better that we pray for our parents—that in either case, even though I'm praying, there's something that still feels like, 'But it's Your will.' So this still feels at a distance. It's like I'm praying, but it's not as important as the will of God. So that makes it, 'Yeah, I'm praying, but you know...' something like that. I don't know how to explain it better.

First, we need to really look at that whole aura of unreality that is the whole design of Maya, isn't it? To give the reality of God's light a background sort of conceptual validity, but to give the world in front of us a feeling of, or the seeming of, truth. So what if God was in front of you in the world? Then how would you pray, you see? So if we are able to conceptualize or intellectualize, it is only because we are not really fully in faith. If God is in front of you, do you have the time to think and say, 'No, no, but this must be this, must be that. Why do I feel like it's His will or my...'? All of that goes out the window because you're coming to a secondary Darshan of Him, which we still value more in the human condition than that intimacy of His presence, which is your presence. You call it 'I am,' isn't it? But that is whose presence? Who is that being within you? Is there a being within you that's—I don't even want to use the term 'sense of being.' If you say 'sense of being,' then it becomes like a feeling or emotion, something. But let's ask directly: Is there a being within yourself?

Then isn't it most important before everything else to find out who that is? And is it enough then to say, 'I know who that is. It is God. It is God, I have concluded. Okay, then let's move on.' Hello? We need to stop there. Because you're making a report of the sages. These sages said that they found God's presence within themselves as their Atma within. But did they say, 'Okay, then so what? Let's move on'? But that is what Maya will try to get you to do. I think Dr. Ji said last time, it is multifaceted. Maya's first job is to obscure reality, and the second job is to give you an alternative version.

What is it obscuring? So if I said to you—and you were new in satsang, all of you, this was your first time—and I said to you that under all the different names, whether you say Satguru presence, whether you say Atma within, whether you say Holy Spirit, whether you say the light of 'know within myself,' whichever way you look at this, there is a holy presence within you. That is why this Kendra is called Atma Gyan Kendra. This Atma, there is within you. Then you can agree or disagree. And if you agree, you must prove me right, and if you disagree, then you must prove me wrong. But you can't just leave it. So because Maya really cannot truly deny, cannot truly replace, so it does the second best thing, which is to play for time.

It plays for time. It means, you see, your intention is to prove me right. Your intention is to live in the light of God's presence. Your intention is to come to the absolute recognition of that which is aware even of God's presence within, and to live empty in that way, to live in the Unborn. That is the intention. But the intention moves to tomorrow, later, later. And that never ends till we die. So don't allow your mind to fool you in this way. The visible, the visible along with the constructs of the mind, make it seem like this is real, and that which is invisible but met intuitively seems to be non-existent. When you are involved in the visible with your narrative, what happens to that which is unperceivable but recognized intuitively? It seems to be gone. Yes.

That is why the sages have said that to be with God, we must let go of the 'me.' Maya is 'me.' 'A' is 'me.' When 'me' comes, it is Maya. Before the 'me' comes or is taken to be true, even the perceptions don't really become Maya; they can't really be called Maya. But when mixed with our narrative, when mixed with the story, the message of the 'me,' the narrative of the 'me,' then we seem to lose that most valuable treasure, the treasure within ourselves. So the project, which seems to be to come to God's light, God's presence, and live there by losing the 'me,' being empty of the 'me,' when stretched over time seems like a very difficult one because this 'me' is so attractive. The story of what I want, what I want to do, my life—all of that seems so attractive, you see? And that's another way in which this play is about time. Because it may seem difficult when stretched over time, but moment to moment, it is actually not difficult. And I say 'now, now, now, now, now, now,' nobody's ever complained saying, 'No, no, no, that's too difficult.' And I say, 'Okay, live like that for the rest of your life' or 'live tomorrow whole day like that,' then it seems difficult, isn't it?

That is why it is important to let go of the 'me' thought by thought, moment to moment, because then it is easier. So have you noticed how the mind is? If you have determined that today I will spend the whole day in God's presence, then what happens by the evening? Usually the mind says, 'See, you did so badly. You got so lost, you got so confused.' So it tries to stretch it out over a period of time, and even those moments then are wasted on the mind's lamentations rather than being in God's presence. That's why, almost as a reassurance, they have said that if you say that 100% I will be with God's presence, then it may happen 50%. But if you say, 'I will balance it out,' then it's not going to happen at all. Because Kabir Ji said that Maya is a 'Maha Thagini'; she's the greatest con artist. It'll tempt you. How often does it happen that you say, 'Ah, weekend, no disturbance, just inner sadhana, being in God's light,' and it seems like Maya is also prepared for that? So all day from the beginning itself, something, something, something, see? So notice this play for time. Notice that your intention is the highest, you see? You've seen that your power is also there, you can let go. But the mind tricks you with, 'Okay, now, but this is more important right now. Something else is more important.' And none of us should feel that we will change tomorrow. It is not too late, but it will be tomorrow, and nothing externally needs to change, only your inner posture in a way.

Please. I know Shiva had a question also, but we'll come to him in a moment.

If that internal posture needs to change and nothing external needs to change, but I just wonder—that was actually my thoughts while coming here—that for one on the path, between sensing presence and living in it, that is a journey. And between sensing it for a moment, like a moment of insight, versus being your constant companion in a way. So that is—is it so that in that period when one is wanting, or not even wanting, but yeah, it's there—that although the external circumstances don't need to change, is it true, is it so that if it's possible to change them for a temporary period in order to then be able to come back with that internal posture in the right—I don't know if it can ever be so perfectly in the right place, but sort of stronger maybe, or more collected?

Very, very good. So this is exactly the question that should come, which is that, 'Okay, I heard what you're saying. I can confirm also that at least momentarily I have experienced this presence, and it seems true that I must live in its light, in His light. So how do I know what I should do so that this can deepen, so that His presence can become constant?' So it's a very important question. That's why I said that you must follow His will, the guidance within. Allow Him to move you, allow Him to guide you. Because you don't know really whether if you move to a farm or to take the busiest house on the busiest street in the country will get you closer to Him. We don't really know. So rather than grappling around with the mind's tactics about what to do, we must—if He's available, then why not follow His will? Like Krishna came in front of you, but you're like, 'How can I make Krishna...'

That's why I said that you must follow his will, the guidance within. Allow him to move you, allow him to guide you, because you don't know really whether if you move to a farm or to take the busiest house on the busiest street in the country will get you closer to him. We don't really know. So rather than grappling around with the mind's tactics about what to do, we must—if he's available, then why not follow his will? Like Krishna came in front of you, but you're like, 'How can I make Krishna stay? How can I make Krishna...' you see, you're running around all over the place. 'Maybe if I buy him a nice house, maybe if I give him a nice gift, maybe I set a nice altar for him.' Whatever, we are deciding all of this, but he's there. You can ask him, 'What will make you stay?'

So the presence of God is not an inert object or even like an effusive feeling; it is an intelligent living being. The intelligence, the life, all comes from there itself. That is why so much emphasis on following the will of God in all cultures, all traditions. I keep saying in every satsang that we must follow the will of God. Can you do the will of God over what you think is right? What is the mind's idea of freedom? 'I can do whatever I want.' And usually, if somebody digs further, they will say, 'But I will do whatever I feel is right.' But do we have the capacity to know what is right? No, we have not. But we have the capacity to follow the Satguru within. It guides us to what is God's will. So we must listen to the voice of the Atma within.

And I repeated the tools, the tips to ensure that you're following the guidance from within instead of your mind posing as if it is the heart. Is there a presence of unconditional love? Is the presence of being palpable? And does it seem like the guidance is coming from there? And the most foolproof is whether your Nirguna self, the one without any attributes, is apparent to you as the guidance is being received. The other tip I gave the other day—it just came up actually, nothing I've... this mouth has been used for, I can really ever say I give, just a manner of speaking because it just came up and as everything in satsang does from the heart—that true guidance from within doesn't interrupt pure perception. It's a very potent pointer. If you notice, when you are with the mind, it interrupts your perception. You do that example often: keep looking at this hand, all your focus, but then if you go to your mind, the hand will get blurry. It will not be clear. But your heart guidance does not interrupt pure perception. How do you all feel? Yeah.

Also, that's why when you see the sages speak, it is not that the world diminishes for them as words are appearing from their mouth. But in our usual day-to-day thing, we may be living in a way that you have half here, half there. Also, like in Advaita, it is to see things as they really are. And when the mind comes in between, there, a lot of it is lost, of course, because to see things as they really are is to meet them labelessly, namelessly. And in that, all distinctions, all ideas about what something is, just dissolve because all labels actually are a definition, therefore creating a limited construct, you see. So duality comes from there, difference comes from there, even the idea of Oneness comes from there. You want to go to Shiv first? Still alive, the question, or no?

Kind of this. When you said some satsang is listening to you, you said both wings you flap together and not one, once this then once that. I can relate to that. Once at least the presence is evident, but to get to the presence, is it like that one wing you flap and then the... how do you do both?

You do it desperately. Only one or both, whatever, then in desperation whatever comes. If you're drowning in the water, then to come up, do you use left hand or right hand? Just like whatever comes to the oxygen. The urgency of the matter is like that. Actually, you don't realize because of the tricks of Maya. Again, then the answer will come. But if it becomes an intellectual pursuit or a self-help game, then it is not like that.

Father, in satsang and in meditation, it just comes to say that the presence is more intimate than the body. It's very... it's become very clear that the sensations of the body are like floating on some surface on the presence, and the presence is more intimate. Very good.

I'm so happy you said that because once we see that, then we are saying 'in the body' is only conversationally, because that which we call the body itself we see as just on the surface of this presence—sensations which are being perceived.

And then it's also... it also follows that the real 'I' is the one that's aware of the presence. So it's purely, you know, spirit, spirit, spirit recognizing spirit. And then there's the body is, you know, a bunch of... it's really, I mean, it's basically the witness of the screen called the presence, and the body is on the screen because it's far more intimate than the sensations of the body. So it's just, you know, I know it's becoming very... so then the whole nature of reality then is, you know, it's really not possible to ascribe truth value to the appearances and have the appearances conform to the witness and the Creator if both the witness and the Creator are like the screen and the witness of the screen. Then why, how, why should we... how can the appearance recognize any of this, isn't it? It's like seeing a movie and expecting the guy on the screen to have a conversation about how the plot was made or, you know, or the salary of the actors. It's just like passive media, to use a metaphor.

So there's been so much grace and a lot of presence and simultaneously now—which is another way of saying 'but'—however, I noticed this wave of sleep that comes. Not physical, just like kind of floating in a lot of pleasant sensations. And just in outside of satsang too, just where... more in satsang or more...

No, in satsang that it's not drifting away, the presence?

Not so much. And I see time is wasted, you know, floating in and possibly a perfume, but it's so...

Okay, let me see if I understood. When you're not in satsang, something else is happening. You're watching TV, you're talking to a friend, and just what happens? There's so much perfume of presence, love, peace, joy, that you find yourself getting all restful and sleepy like that? Not a physical sleepiness. When I say sleep, I just mean the mind.

Yeah, going... the mind getting distracted again and maybe sattvic thoughts or... I don't even want to put a label on it, like Shiv's favorite.

So you're getting caught up in thoughts is what you're saying? Yeah, just more... there's just distraction, different flavor of distractions.

Stop it. Maybe, you know, the anchors you talk about all the... I just see time being... inquiry, prayer, faith, gratitude, humility—all of this is for that. So moment to moment, whatever. If saying the name of God helps you, use that. If inquiring 'Who am I?' helps you, use that. If asking 'Am I aware now?' helps you, use that. If listening to devotional music helps you, use that. All the tools are there. If doing Hatha Yoga helps you, use that. Just constant chanting helps you, use that. All the tools are available for you and they all... don't worry about things like 'Do they work well together?' In that trying to understand that itself, you waste more time than just following whatever brings you to God. It works well together.

Like a child who's missing the mother is saying, 'Should I scream for her or should I cry for her?' You scream or cry, but call her. So whether you inquire, whether your temperament is inquiry or at least in that moment it feels like inquiry, or your temperament is that of a Bhakta in that moment, whatever it is, go to God. Be with God. Just make it a... like set a reminder if you have to, to beep every five minutes: God, God, God, God. It can happen like that. Empty and know. I may offer you something, then the mind offers you something, you're like, 'Yeah,' like that. Then how do you come back? It doesn't matter. You say, 'Who is witnessing these thoughts?' Oh. Point is to come back to him. If you come to satsang this way or you come that way or you come this way, it doesn't matter. Point is to come to him.

And to add to that, I just want to really say thank you.

You're welcome.

Because there's so much support here, you know, to not follow the thoughts. It's possible where sometimes when I'm alone, when I was gone, it's same battle every day, same trick every day. So thank you, thank you.

I'm happy to hear that. And in that way, then the Sangha becomes a true refuge. If it is playing a role like that, then I'm happy. And even if it can be 90% refuge and 10% distraction, even that is all right because I'm not expecting everyone to always be empty when we are in a Sangha together. But if it's mostly helping, then I'm happy to hear that. She is still looking confused. You good? That's how he lives in the unknown. How's the family? We fine.

Sometimes when you don't feel like inquiring, when you don't feel like praying, then you may just feel like loving God deeply. That is why inside love, servitude, so many different seeming, seemingly different ways that all routes that lead to him are really one. Because in none of these can you carry the 'me' along truly. Try to be self-obsessed and love God. Me can't do it. To be empty, can you even hear his will, hear his guidance, be in his presence if you're caught up in the 'me'? Bhakti is not possible. If you ask, 'Who is aware of these thoughts? Who is witnessing these thoughts?' and you still... but you're actually just going along with the thoughts and you're more interested in 'What's happening to me? What's happening to me?' This is how the journey of the spiritual seeker perpetuates. It doesn't end because the focus continues to be on the 'me'. It has to move away from the 'me' to God. What does he want? How am I serving him?

For you the other day, you guided us all to God and you said something like, 'Guys, it's best if I sometimes... if I got you by surprise, something comes and then the mind has no defenses,' or something like that. Yeah, I've been noticing that in satsang and in general as well, meditation, that just comes. Just seems to be more effortless and deeper than sometimes sitting and...

It can be like that, yeah, because the mind is constantly preparing for... so it has answers ready for 'Who am I?' you know. So I say ask yourself who you are. 'Yes, seven years ago when I went to satsang in the meditation hall, the ashram over there, the first time who I saw, where I saw who I am...' all that story is ready. The question was not asked because it's got prepared. So for most things, pray, then you say, 'Okay, when I pray this happens,' like that. It stops you. All that is ready. But then something fresh comes. Ah! What? Ah, okay, see? So it helps in a way like that. It also gets into certain modes sometimes. We see that, 'Ah, how's everything? How's things?' But who are you? And suddenly it's taken off guard. Otherwise, constantly preparing. It's like constantly the defenses are being prepped up. 'Yes, yes, I knew you're going to ask me that and I want to tell you that seven years ago this is what happened.' Then you know that it's being met at a stale place.

One boy, I shared the story before, that he met me in Indiana, in the Midwest in America. And he came all the way, he drove probably and all of that. And then after, on the second day when we met at the hotel lobby—and very small hotel, small place, college town it was—so he says to me, 'Ananta Ji, then when I came to your retreat many years back, this is what happened and I want that experience again.' See? 'And all this time that's all I wanted, I'm just not getting it.' So then at the hotel reception I started shouting. I was like, 'But fresh God is here with you! Fresh God is here with you right now!' And you're thinking about something that your memory is showing you, something your imagination is telling you, your mind is making these stories and you're attached to those experiences. What is missing?

When I came to your retreat many years back, this is what happened and I want that experience again. See, and all this time, that's all I wanted; I'm just not getting it. So then at the hotel reception, I started shouting. I was like, but fresh God is here with you. Fresh God is here with you right now, and you're thinking about something that your memory is showing you, something your imagination is telling you. Your mind is making these stories and you're attached to those experiences. What is missing in God right now? You see, that's the trouble. Even with spiritual experience, we say, 'Uh, this is what I want. I had like that, this is what I want.' And all this temptation is coming from where? The mind. So just sometimes something comes naturally that changes the mode a bit, able to meet it fresh, huh?

Now I was noticing it because sometimes like now when we're in satsang, it's as if something was, yeah, pressuring to be empty or something like that, which the mind catches me in. Maybe for a few days...

Don't diagnose yourself. Is it? But the trouble with that instruction is that the mind will—the Checker guy will use that also and say, 'You're diagnosing.' He said don't diagnose, so don't diagnose. Be empty, oh, or chant or pray or whatever, but just be empty of your head. Because even those conclusions that, 'Ah, there is pressure, there is this,' where are they coming from? The thief is not going to tell you how to catch this thief, no matter how sincere it sounds. And this is the trouble: that when you feel that, 'Okay, now this is what I've heard, this is what I've understood,' so the thief also takes that and uses that itself. That is often what I refer to as the Checker guy in satsang. 'We must not do this, so why are you doing that? You stop doing that.' This is what... so that itself is adding to that. So that which is meant to make you empty can also make you full of the head. In conceptual spirituality, there is no spirit, and therefore it is not spirituality, huh? Conceptuality, yes. Duality is full of duality. In the walk the other day, I was saying, change the flow which you're living on. You're living in this flow; just change it. Come to this flow.

For many years in spirituality also, I was an atheist for a large part, and then for many years in spirituality, I didn't really even recognize the other flow—that there is another flow. I was resolving everything there only. 'Oh, this is what this means, this is what this is, I've understood this, I understood like that.' So I built up so much understanding and then realized, no, the job is to come to the basement. Not in this to elevate; you have to come to the lower floor. From head to heart. Where would you live? Where God lives or where 'me' lives?

Missing... you can't see... mic is missing. Um, Father, this is something I observed yesterday. Just now I was saying fresh God... okay, okay. No, I mean what I'm saying is the mind, Father, it tries to gain attention and then, you know, make it real, right? So when I was fighting it, saying that, 'No, no, this is not true, this is not true' and all that, it went on to storify more and more, and there were more stories and I was getting caught. But once I said, 'Okay, fine,' you know, I accepted it, said, 'Okay, fine, you're...' just then it just, that's it, cleared up, Father. It means it has no this thing.

That's why I don't feel like I've ever suggested getting into an argument with the mind. No, because there's no winning in that argument. So just open and empty. Let it come, let it go, or pray or inquire. You're not to engage at that level and say, 'Yes, yes, true, yes, yes, no,' you know? But you can't convince the mind. It's like talking to the leopard; it won't make it change its spots. It's not going to happen. In fact, that's what it wants. There are some children that want the attention, whether it is happy attention and loving attention or even angry attention. They're okay with that as long as they have the attention, it's okay.

My daughter was really young and maybe she was like five or six and her brother was ten or eleven. So every time I would talk to him or just we would be having fun, my son and I, she would just make some noise, you know? So one time, I'm just talking to him about something, and maybe we were talking about cricket or something, so she just made a sound, 'Ah!' Just... and at that age, you couldn't really say anything else or intelligent to get the attention or participate in the conversation, but she just made this random noise. She just, even at that age, felt like she needed it, she really wanted it. But that is the nature of the mind. Just notice, you just be empty, yeah, and soon it'll make some noise. It'll just try to distract you. Conversations with the... there's a new version of Neale Donald Walsch, 'Conversations with God.' In this, it's really just like that a bit.

But I think one becomes a little alert when the mind starts... energy of things are really bad and sad and in some way or the other, like something is wrong with you, your life, your situation, your relationship, whatever. That we pick up because we don't want to go downhill also for our own this thing, like, 'What the hell, I don't want to be thinking all this and feeling that.'

That the mind says, or we, the thinker? The thinker then wishes to be free of the thought because the thought is very unpleasant. Then the thinker is smart and says immediately that, 'Look, I'm not the thought,' and then can turn that attention to... yeah. One of the cases sometimes in Jnana Yoga, sometimes where—and I'm rarely going to say this—but sometimes like the intellect comes to your aid in that way. The capacity to judge and in that way, although I don't really speak about Viveka and things like that, then that plays a part. But when the train of thought is something that you're wonderful and you did this, you know, if it wasn't for you this would not have happened, or you know, something like that, you know, 'You have the greatest kid and look,' then we don't... we're not so quick to disassociate. And so I don't know, recently I've been like more alert to the energies which are coming also from that side, that you know, everything is so wonderful. Especially 'so wonderful,' that's when you have the awareness to pull back at that. I'm finding more, more, more freedom.

Very well noticed. And it can be, again, based on the time, based on temperament, all of these things. Like I used to talk about these things a lot more—the mechanics of the mind, the functioning of the mind. Like some are more attracted to pride thoughts, some are more attracted to guilt thoughts, and both are two ends of the same coin. But some are more attracted to the past, some are more attracted to the future. So those about the past feel more guilty; those about the future feel more anxious. So all these mechanics of the mind are there, but it's good to notice that both are two ends of the same coin. See, 'This too shall pass.' This TV show called Sacred Games... so this one gangster starts doing really well, so he says to himself that, 'Sometimes I feel that I am God himself.' And then he gets so badly caught and you see him beaten up in prison and all that. Then after some point in the show, he's saying that, 'My life is... wake up in the morning, have a bath, get beaten up, go back to sleep.' I don't know whether the writers had this whole arc that way in mind, but I have a feeling they may, that after pride and arrogance, this is what suffering looks like, you know, to beat that out of us.

Those who can seek refuge in His life, those who can seek refuge in His presence even when there is nothing seemingly wrong in life, they are blessed. And God is not some pain relief balm. Why should we go to Him only when there's some pain, some suffering? And the other alternative to living like this, even when the mind's narrative of that is winning, just like a hellish experience, to not live with the holiness within, to exchange that for being right or for some pride, is the worst deal probably.

There's a question in the chat: 'Where does suffering take place? In the body?' No, it's all mental. Pain is in the... pain is perceived as sensations which we label as the body, but suffering is the hard work we do on top of pain, or even without pain sometimes, mentally. You know how much effort suffering takes? Like, suffer right now, but start with empty, huh? If you're already suffering, then it's easy. Start with empty now. Suffer. But effortlessly. Don't work. Can't do it. You have to do a lot of mechanics. 'This happened, then this happened, but that happened.' Believe a lot of nonsense. Do a lot of work to suffer, you see? But the human condition seems like it's the reverse. Like suffering seems to be natural. Even Buddha said the world is suffering. The meaning of samsara is to suffer. That seems to be the human condition. But to find refuge in your heart, in God's presence, then suffering seems very difficult. Not impossible, very difficult. You say impossible, you can still do the work. Nothing to take that power away from Consciousness. If I said, 'Take refuge in God's presence, you can't suffer,' but yes, yes, thank you, thank you for helping me clarify that. What I meant to say is that when you have tasted His presence and the possibility of living there, then to go to the mind and back to the whole stories of suffering seems very difficult to leave that. But you can still... everybody can still leave that. It's not impossible.

And also another... he talked about... he talked about pain being... and I don't know why I'm asking because the answer is known, maybe just for clarity. And in the dialogue you had about the body being fleeting sensation recognized by the mind, the body is in the mind, therefore pain and pleasure also... it's not the body that... it's really...

Well, depends on the definition actually, because there is no such thing as body, mind, world, universe, Consciousness, awareness, beingness, God, Guru, disciple—none of that. All of these are just constructs that we use to communicate. So that then when we say 'body' or 'mind,' then it all depends on what that word encapsulates for you, right? So for some, it may encapsulate... just like in Indian spirituality, there are two terms. There is something called small mind and there is something called big mind. Is it? Now, what is small mind is what Bhagavan said: 'Mind is a bundle of thoughts.' It is a limited energy construct which is these messages that seem to come in perception, which seem to be my voice, but it's just perception. Big mind is what you may call Consciousness. In the big mind, the small mind arises. So using the definition of the big mind, what you said is correct, that all is in that mind. Body, mind, all of that is in that big mind which is within the perceptual experience of Consciousness itself.

So it all depends on the kind of terminology that you use. Usually, it's better, I have found, to keep it simpler and go with Bhagavan's usual definition—although he also used it the other way sometimes—is to just refer to the mind as the bundle of thoughts, and the other perceptions and sensations that we say 'my body,' you can just call that the body. And it keeps it simple. Because if you look at the world or the dream body in the dream state, there also there is a voice, this bundle of thoughts. So although at some level everybody in the world may say, 'My dreams happen in my mind, the entire dream state is in my mind,' it may be easier to say that it's just a projection of Consciousness. But within the dream also there is a mind, which is the thought activity that is going on. So it's okay, we can use whatever term we want for anything that we want. That's completely our choice and nobody can ever take that away from us. But it's always helpful like this to clarify. So were you saying like that or were you saying like this? Because in language that is the main difficulty, isn't it? That I may say ABC XYZ, but your meaning of ABC XYZ could be completely different from the way in which it's being used here. So to come to like a commonality of the...

It is going on, so it's okay. We can use whatever term we want for anything that we want; that's completely our choice and nobody can ever take that away from us. But it's always helpful like this to clarify. So, were you saying like that or were you saying like this? Because in language, that is the main difficulty, isn't it? That I may say ABC XYZ, but your meaning of ABC XYZ could be completely different from the way in which it's being used here. So, to come to a commonality of the dictionary is very helpful so that we are using it in the same way. At least you have a sense of how it is being used. Like anytime you read a book, you first get a sense of the way the words are being used, isn't it? If you just go with your ideas of what every word means, then you can never read any book unless you just want to be right: 'The author is wrong, I'm so right, the author is...' You see, if you're really expecting to learn something or grow by reading a book, then first you're trying to get a sense of, okay, what is the sense in which he's using this word? What is the sense in which he's saying this like this? So then you can appreciate his dictionary and work with that. And that's a very good tip for life in the world also. We must not carry around our bundle of ideas with everything and then 'I'm right, but it's not like this, it's like that, awareness before Consciousness' and you know, this is the thing, and you know, I know Advaita, all this stuff. Let's get a sense of what is being shared, where that other one is coming from, and maybe they're saying exactly the same thing as you are but just using different terminology.

I don't know how many of you really tried to read 'I Am That'—like really try. I know that all of you have read it, but really tried to read it fully, like assimilated. Then you will notice that the translator has just interspersed Consciousness and awareness everywhere. It is like sometimes they say awareness, sometimes they say Consciousness. So as a reader, you're just like, 'What is happening?' Sometimes the Consciousness is aware of awareness, sometimes awareness is aware of Consciousness. Reading the book, you're fully confused. It's a very Zen book also, so the translator was definitely a Zen student.

That point only, that bundle—why do you call it? You see only one thought, and it's not even limited there. What do you call it? One thought, thought. But why bundle of thoughts?

When you look at the aggregate, the machinery of thoughts, like this mind, thought, thought availability, thought-creating sort of instrument—if you were to give that a name, that is what is limited. When you say bundle, there are only so many, but there is so much there, the infinite bundle.

In the... we posted that short satsang where you were telling us about the spiritual identity which one can have if you feel that you met God. So it's not very clear. Can you just say a little bit more? Because people are reading it, but they're not getting the whole idea of what you're trying to tell us.

It's a bit subtle because what can happen if you've been in satsang for some time is that it can become like a badge of honor. And Father always asks, 'Have you met God?' And there are some who, like most of you, raise your hands, and some of you don't really. So it becomes like... so if one day... so that becomes part of our identity, that 'I am someone who has met God.' You see? But that doesn't help you in any way if it becomes part of your identity. It can only lead to pride. So it's always good to remain in the beginner mindset. 'I'm just starting off. Just what is fresh and alive here, that I will confirm.' I really don't want you to confirm anything from the past anyway. I'm not giving any certificates, or I'm giving every certificate to everyone. So all of you start with the certificate now; let's start to listen. So it's not about the certificates. You can all have every certificate you want.

But if you make that—the meeting God's presence, being in God's presence, the Atma Darshan, Atma Gyan—if you make that a part of my identity, like 'I am somebody who has met God,' then that can only impede you. It cannot assist your growth; it can only become obstructive for your growth. You see, always start just like a helpless child at His mercy. Because whether you will have even one more second of this world experience, that also you can't control. Whether your breath is going to stop in the next moment, that you can't control. So all this pride is not going to help anything anywhere. So I noticed that there's a tendency, maybe because I ask so often whether you're living in God's presence, whether you've met God's presence, in an attempt to help deepen that, to come to that. But that can become just like, 'Yes, I have, I have done it.' And in any case, what does that say about you? When you say 'I met God,' what have you concluded? Anything great about you in that? No, it's all His mercy, His grace that made it happen.

We have to be a little bit careful of the... very careful actually, of the spiritual ego. You are Atma, but not the 'me' that you think. So to simplify: you are the highest, you are the greatest, you are That where this whole universe plays and dissolves within you. You are that highest. But any claimant of that, any claimant of that must always remember that that is just a servant of God. Because that is the 'me' that remains in spite of the insight of God's reality, of the reality of the Absolute. And the 'me' that remains, you see, and the 'me' that says 'there's no me who remains'—is that 'me'? Or 'I want no me to remain'—that is the 'me.' 'When will this me go away?'—that is the 'me.' So that one, the only true posture for that one is to be in servitude to God's will. So if you can take yourself to be something, take yourself to be a servant of God. If there's nothing, then there's nothing. But don't take yourself to be nothing also, because even nothing is a position.

Father, to see the mind, right? Most of the times I'm able to smell it and when I smell it, I'm able to... I mean, the question is, sometimes I know it is very strong, you know? It comes mostly early in the morning or during some work hours, it tries to catch you. So I'm able to witness it at that moment. I'm not judging it, nor am I giving too much energy to it. I'm just there, you know? Like the snake is there and I'm just there. Not so like the snake, I mean, it's like you know that... yeah, you're just... you know, I'm not reacting to it, right? So I just want to know this space. Normally people say that you should not... either you should make a friend of it or, I don't know, some analogies. So is this practice okay, or what's your...?

Yeah, why do you want to be free from the mind?

I don't want to be... huh? I don't want to be free from the mind? I mean, as long as... I mean, I'm not... it's not about free. I mean, as long as I'm seeing it and it does not have any power over me, it's fine.

Yeah, so you want it to not have power over you because...?

No, because just like that. Just like that. Just saying, that's it. Just witness, that's it.

You don't want the mind to have power over you for no reason?

I mean, I really don't have an answer for this, honestly. I don't feel there's a reason, honestly. Maybe the mind is trying to manipulate me, but yeah, I'm open to see this more.

Find a good reason, no? Otherwise, it will not happen. That's it. Find a good reason because it is the hardest endeavor you will undertake in your life: to be free from your mind. And I don't want to give you a reason; it has to be your own.

Even that moment, Father, if the thought comes, 'Oh, I have to be free from this,' right? Then the brain, somehow the mind just...

Yeah, but why are you doing all this observing the mind? What it does just seems like too much hard work.

It's not. It is... it comes naturally. It's not like... the thing is, the minute you start thinking, you say you're rushing. Even now my mind is rushing. Can you see that?

Okay, let's start again fresh. Don't worry. What is it that you want truly? If, like in the movie or Amra Kathas, Lord Shiva came to you and said, 'My child, I'm very happy with your satsang, I give you one boon,' what would that be?

To be in the presence of the Satguru always.

To be in that always. But how come in your report that was not there? To leave the mind so that you can be in God's presence or the Satguru's presence—that itself will give you the strength. Otherwise, it becomes self-help. Yeah, it just never works like this. I mean, it may work at a particular level, but it doesn't really work to the extent that we want truly in satsang. It may come to the beginning of what is being shared in satsang, which is some openness. But the openness is so that you come to God, you come to the truth. Because you're anchored in a love for God, you're anchored in a longing for God, then that serves as a true anchor. If it is to make my life better or my life more peaceful and not to be attacked by the mind or something like that, then it's just trying to use spirituality as tactics for self-help. And it's fine, it's fine to use it like that, but really it's not really satsang to come to the company of the truth, and the truth being the highest.

So, to be in the Satguru's presence always—are you willing to give up on everything? If you make it top priority inwardly—I'm not saying do anything outwardly—but inwardly, if all you want is Him, the rest will not have as strong a hold as it may seem to otherwise. But if the 'me' is still central in the narrative, then it can seem very difficult to be rid of the 'me' while holding the 'me' itself. Even intellectually, it is not correct. 'I want to be free from the remote, I want to be free from the remote,' but grasping it tight. Or 'the remote wants to be free from the remote.' I often call that inhaling the poison and then looking for the antidote. To have 'me' central and to be free from the 'me,' and to make 'me' central again and to try to be free from that is... that is the myth of Sisyphus. We can be spiritual for lifetimes, but it's the same Groundhog Day over and over again, a time loop.

Once you start looking, that's... I've never heard that before. You inhale the poison and then you start looking for the antidote. And sometimes, you know, when you start looking for the antidote, it feels so real, like it validates itself and becomes so blind. But that is the bane of spiritual seeking, the bane of spiritual seeking, and that's why it seems to be like an endless search for many.

Which part shocked just now? No, because I mean, this question which Damu asked was so relevant in a sense that it's because, you know, till now you've been struggling with your mind and your mind and your mind and your mind. The whole... I've said God, God, God, God, God, God, but we heard only mind. But in the question, there was no God. So I was just trying to dig deeper and say, but is this about God or is this about me?

Yeah, but when you said that when we come to satsang, it's really to be in the company of God, I mean, and that's the only true reason. It's not to make... I understood it's not to make my life better or something like that, but it's still really... it's like I heard it again for the first time, like I've come to find God. And when you asked him, I had the answer in my heart, but it wasn't like exploding in my heart, you know what I'm saying? It was like, 'Yeah, I've come to find God.' I don't know how to say it. And like when... and I was like, 'Okay, I want... I also want to be free of suffering, that's why I don't want to go to my mind.' It doesn't seem to be... 'I want to be free of suffering' equals 'God' so often.

But 'I came to satsang to be free from suffering'—but that was the old story, no? When did you come? So you can leave that. So many of us have been spiritual for 20 years, 30 years, but 'I came because of that.' So how does it matter? You came to eat idli dosa; instead, you're getting a feast of the Leela. What is there to complain? 'I wanted freedom for me, free from suffering for me.' No, instead you're getting the Lord of the universe in your heart. 'I don't know, that's not really what I wanted.' You go to the hotel and you had like the smallest room and...

But that was an old story, no? When did you come? So you can leave that. So many of us have been spiritual for 20 years, 30 years, but 'I came because of that.' So how does it matter? You came to eat idli dosa, and instead you're getting a feast of the Leela. What is there to complain? 'I wanted freedom for me, freedom from suffering for me.' No, instead you're getting the Lord of the universe in your heart. 'Um, I don't know, that's not really what I wanted.' You go to the hotel and you had like the smallest room, and at the reception the manager tells you, 'Oh, you're in good luck because the presidential suite just got vacated and there's no room available except that, and you're in the presidential suite.' But you're like, 'No, I didn't want that. Who are you offering me? God? I just wanted freedom from suffering.' This is the nature of the mind. This is how it plays because 'I want, I want, I want.' We need to be right, we need to know so much that somebody offers us the highest and even that can seem like, 'But okay, but on my terms, is it?'

The mind is able to create the cloud of all these things and you're not able to look. Even though you know what is right, you're not able to look at it, like a fog of war. And even if you understand deeply once, still the cloud is very strong. That's why Kabir Ji said that Maya is a mahathag. Maya is the greatest con artist. What is the Malayalam translation of mahathag? Come on, that's a Hindi test. You keep getting upset at our kids for not knowing Hindi. Not so easy. Thag is more of a... she steals from you. She fools you first, tempts you and fools you. Deceiver, deceiver. But it doesn't happen in pure perception. So at some level, life or death is not about breathing or not breathing, the waking state appearing or not appearing. Life or death really is whether God's presence has been found or not found. Because you can live for a thousand years, but a Godless life you haven't really lived.

Sorry, sir. No, so I just want to hear that line again where you take... you breathe in the poison and then you start looking for the antidote. So that...

I'll give you a demonstration of that, no? Empty, like that. Then first you become 'spiritual me.' Whatever I understood, how to make my life better, how to even come to God. So we have taken that position and then we are trying to empty ourselves out of that position. Yes, but you started empty, no? In this moment, already you are empty. So first you inhale the poison of the narrative of the 'me' who wants even freedom, even anything. Yes, because this is the gift of the moment. Like every moment you start fresh, fresh, fresh. Then what happens? You can remain or you can go with this guy. What happens when you do either? That is the difference between light and darkness, life and death. That moment, right right now. Slow down. This is a good example. Just slow down. There's no rush.

Now I think I better just have a comment on it more so than... because it's so true. It feels so true. I feel it in the heart. So taking the poison is like believing the thought. As soon as the thought is believed, you almost start going with it and flowing with it. It just makes the whole thing so visceral and felt in the body. And so not taking the antidote is, whatever the body is feeling, to not continue with the mind flow and just to come back.

Exactly, yeah. Such a good deceiver uses the body, like everything it can find, everything that it can use to confirm its righteousness, to confirm its knowingness. It is all false. Even the difficulty in satsang happens because we have a frame of reference and we're trying to see the words or meet the words of satsang in that mold, in that frame of reference, and trying to squeeze it over there, you see? This is often what I tell you. And it's okay, you can do it with Ananta, but you must not do it with your insights. And most of you struggle with that. You have an insight, then you quickly rush to the mind and say, 'What does this mean? Ah, this means...' and you quickly framed it as part of the narrative instead of just letting it be, letting it flower, letting it grow. So you must not rush like that. Just allow it to be like this. Have you noticed this? It's very important to notice this.

Yeah, so I've seen that your heart may guide you in a certain way or you may have an insight over there. Ah, something just seems to click. And then you say, 'What does this mean? I saw like that, it happened.' We made it mental very quickly instead of allowing it to rest.

So don't rush. Only rush to the heart, don't rush out from it.

I think I feel like the question is a little bit... yeah, very strong sense of... that question is there because that is almost like an incorrect state because in that moment there is... and so just like sharing, you know, I like we had that moment. Who will know? He's not there. Then who will know?

Yeah, it's... leave it now. You can know. But you have a sense in your heart. If I say... okay, I rarely say like that, but let's say today, the whole day, were you living predominantly in God's light or in the mind? You know in your heart. Of course, we have to be empty of 'me' to be in God, but the one that this question can be asked to is not the ego. The ego would only lament and say, 'But you yourself say the me has to go for God to come.' That I'm not asking the ego. I'm asking you: are you living in God's light? You know in your heart. Uh, in the online report, what does it say?

I think what is being shown to me is that to follow His will has still not sunk in deeply enough, that every moment we must follow His will. Because that takes away the complexity from life. Otherwise, we get stuck in the intellect saying 'this way or that way, this way or that way, this is right, this is wrong.' But if the greatest guide, the greatest Satguru, is in your heart, then all you have to do is follow.

And of course, the mind doesn't like that. It doesn't want to follow; it wants to lead. It wants to lead, it doesn't want to follow. It wants to be right, it wants to know, it doesn't want to be helpless and open and vulnerable. But if all that happens as a result of hearing satsang is some spiritual experiences, some spiritual insight, and a big box of spiritual concepts and understanding, then I would have failed in what I'm doing. Because I know that you will not value the concepts unless some experience, some insight is also there. That much I know. But to help you to let go of all of that and to become helpless in front of God, I need to inspire deeper humility, a deeper faith. Because it's mostly actually fear—a fear of fully letting go, which may pose as pride. When really scared, we try to look most aggressive. So our pride is actually nothing but a defense, a denial against recognizing that we don't actually know anything. And to make ourselves fully empty and available to follow His will moment to moment would be an admitting of that. Because if you already knew, then why would you have to be empty and wait for His will? You're already right.

So let go of that fear. See, everything is showing you in life that we don't know anything in our head, especially not spirituality. We cannot know. We cannot contain even a single true statement about God in our head. So don't confuse the communication medium to be the reality. The words which are pointers—to use them as if they are reality would not be helpful to you. But follow the pointer. Somebody going to a city, they have all these road signs along the way. So suppose somebody said, 'I'm going to really become the smartest one. I'm going to collect all the road signs, then I will know everything. Hyderabad to the left, Chennai to the right.' And so, 'I know, I know everything.' But have you been to Hyderabad? Have you been to Chennai? 'No, but I have this sign; it says 50 km right. And I have the sign Chennai 20 km to the left.' That is never going to accomplish anything. You have to visit the point of the pointer.

How many is the question? How many road signs do we need to get? You don't want to be a spiritual librarian, do you? I mean, if you want to, that's fine, but don't miss the main thing for that. Somebody says Atma, then you say, 'Oh, but this one said, Shankara said like that, and Madhva said like that, and Ramanuja said like that, but the Buddha said like this, but these things are like that, and the Christians say like that.' And that's it. Then it's just like talking about the great dessert but never tasting. 'Oh, you know, in France they make the crepe like this, but in Spain they have a version of that like that, but in Africa they have different...' Have you tasted it? 'No, not really.'

This character in this book... what is that? A Passage to India, something like that, about the British, the time the British were here. I forget the... ah, it's not Vikram Seth... A Suitable Boy. If you read it, you remember there's a character there who says, 'Ah yes, the food in Liverpool and the something in Manchester' and all of that. So he keeps throughout the... I haven't read the book, I've seen the movie. So throughout the movie, he keeps talking about how things are in the good old center of the Empire, colonial Britain. He talks with glory about all of that stuff. And then at the end, somebody asks him, 'So when did you last go?' So he says, 'Actually, I've never had the pleasure.' What? So our spirituality must never become like that. It must always be grounded in insight, and may all words flow from there instead of just lip service type thing.