If God Lives in Our Heart, Where Should We Live? - 16th September 2024

So I mean it quite literally when I say that God lives in your heart in the form of the Atma within, in the form of the Holy Spirit. It is more factual than anything we can see in this world. But the question is: what will I get? What's in it for me? And truly speaking, everything is self-realization, recognition of who you really are, the discovery of an unconditional love, peace, joy, everything. But most times, through the lens of the mind, it will seem like it is a horrible waste to live in remembrance of the One or in the presence of the One who is the light of this universe. In the way of the mind, it seems like a terrible waste of time. But if you did not identify with that which is going to die, then it would not seem that way. If you did not take ourselves to be this 'me', then this union in the heart, this merging of the seeming duality, is all that is important.

So that which seems like a deepening of a holy relationship and ultimately leading to a holy union, what gets in the way? What seems to create some distance? Only a thought which is identified with. Because our relationship is so intimate that even a thought can get in the way. This bond of love in our heart is so pristine and innocent that even the subtlest seeming thoughts are like concrete walls, or they seem like concrete walls, and they create this ghost-like identity of a 'me' who is interested in the reflection which is called Maya and not the source which is God. So when we leave the holy presence of the Atma within our hearts through identification with pride, selfishness, grasping, then what I'm speaking about will seem very alien, distant, strange.

So to keep our heart temple clean, what would it be clean from? These egotistical ideas, our grievances, our judgments, our pride, our lack of faith, our trust in that which seems like an individual will rather than waiting for God's will to move us and to guide us. So to keep our final space empty of all of this is what is needed. And the tools for that are your inquiry, your prayer, whatever spiritual sadhana there is is for that. There is no sadhana, no practice which can compel God to give you his darshan, his recognition. You cannot say to God that 'I have sincerely asked myself who I am one million times, now I'm entitled to self-realization, self-recognition.' But it is important to do whatever resonates with us to keep this inner space open and ready for him.

It is our job like Shabri to pick the berries every day. We cannot say that 'I have tried for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, he's still not come.' You cannot lose hope because anyway, a life is already much better in that way than it would have been otherwise anyway. Even with the intention of making dinner for God and keeping every moment ready for the guest to arrive, although to the mind it may seem very oppressive and terrible, actually it is the sweetest way to live. And to put yourself at the center of your heart altar, the made-up 'me', is actually the most oppressive way to live, although to the mind it seems like winning and achieving in this world.

So Kabir Ji and Rahim Ji said that the lane is too narrow; there is room only for God or for me, there is not room for both. Even in the Bible, it is said that it is a straight, narrow lane that leads to the gates of heaven. So can we live as if—even if it seems like an 'as if', which many times it does—as if he is always with us? And in that 'as if', more and more it will become clearer and clearer that it is true. Like this, does anyone feel like he is not always with us, he's not always with me?

So this is a common misconception, isn't it? The idea that my prayer is a hotline to him where once I start praying, then he picks up the phone. That is not true. Our prayer is his hotline to us because that is when we are with him. He is always with us, is it? So given that it is true and you know it somewhere that this is true, why do we not live like this? And that denial, that forgetting, is being lost in Maya. What stops you from living as if he is always with you in your heart? And how would your life change if you lived like that? It would be the end of loneliness, anxiety, all this suffering, because our lives are now reflecting the truth of our very existence. There is no existence without him, is it?

So what is the symptom, the primary symptom of forgetting him? It is when we suffer. Yes, that's the outcome, but just like the almost immediate symptom is that you want to make this about me. It's about me. In that moment when it becomes about me, then he is forgotten. And then even our relationship with God is turned upside down where it becomes 'God for me' instead of 'me for God'. And then we can get into all kinds of absurdities like 'God doesn't help me, he doesn't love me, he doesn't answer me, he doesn't fix my life.' But if you really explore the nature of this life, you'll see that all this is complete nonsense because our very breath is a gift from him, our very next heartbeat is a gift from him, and the giver of life is not against our life.

So one of the symptoms is to start to blame God instead of looking for where we need to be corrected, where there is some pride hiding, if there is some entitlement. So to have faith in the living reality of God who is alive within yourself this very moment is to lead a true life this very moment. And to forget about the living reality of God is to lead a zombie life this very moment. The problem with the zombie life is that as zombies, it seems very exciting. It seems like it has a lot to offer—our worldly possessions, our relationships, even our mental knowing. We think we know so much. All of this seems very attractive and it seems to present the possibility of some meaning to our life. But those who are truly contemplative or devotional see that these are just illusions, mirages. They don't actually lead to any lasting peace, any lasting insight, anything that goes beyond death.

How can we value his presence? He has given us the privilege of his Atma, his presence being available to us in our heart. How do we honor that privilege? How are we grateful for that presence? Most of us are not, most of the time we are not, because we forget about him. We just forget about him. That is the job of Maya. If he was living in a room in our house, would we clean up that room? And how is it that we are cluttering up our heart space? What is that which is holy which we can place in his room? What about our love for him, our faith in him, our gratitude to him, our humility, our patience, our courage, our acceptance, our openness? So in God's room, how many photos of 'me' would I have put up? And isn't that what we are constantly doing? All our inner space is constantly obsessed with 'what about me, me, me?' So can we contemplate for a few minutes: what are we doing with our heart temple?

In these contemplations, allow the Atma to guide you. Be spirit-led and not intellect-led. If you find that the Atma has changed the topic of the contemplation, that is fine too. If you feel the answers are very different from the questions, that's fine too. If you find yourself sitting in his presence quietly, that's beautiful as well. So allow these minutes to be devoted to the discipleship of the Atma, the tutelage of the Holy Spirit. How are we nurturing God's temple in our heart?

For me, when I'm sitting with him, the thoughts come and then offer a documentary about how I'm doing sitting with the Creator. And then the thoughts will give their thoughts about the thoughts: 'Oh, the thoughts are coming.' But don't follow the thoughts, just let the thoughts come. And it just becomes this major distraction. And these thoughts have no substance and I don't know the source. I just know that there seems to be an endless amount. And they're annoying, and I want to know if that ever goes away. And I feel that to object to them gives them power, but at the same time, I don't want them.

An intermediate step while we come to that full merging with God is that if these thoughts seem so difficult to handle, then we can change. Try and see if this works: that instead of having a conversation...

Action and these thoughts have no substance, and I don't know the source. I just know that there seems to be an endless amount, yeah, and they're annoying. Um, and I want to know if that ever goes away. And I feel that to object to them gives them power, but at the same time, I don't want them.

So, an intermediate step while we come to that full merging with God is that if these thoughts seem so difficult to handle, then we can change—try and see if this works—that instead of having a conversation with yourself (these thoughts are basically having a strange, absurd conversation with yourself), instead of that, make it a conversation with God, you see? So when the thought says, 'I don't know if this is working' or 'if you're doing this right,' then just offer it to God and say, 'This is what my mind is saying. I don't know if I'm doing this right, so please could you look into this?'

So then every thought which seems so strong that you can't let go of it, and you can't remain empty of it just by letting it go, then you make it an offering to God. And in that communication with God, that itself will turn into a communion. Then it'll turn into a silent sitting together, and then that 'together' will vanish into just a Oneness. But because I said that, it doesn't mean that just to sit and be in communication with God is a lower level or something like that; it is also a great privilege for us to be able to do that.

So when the thought comes, sincerely we can say, 'This thought is persistent. It seems to be quite true. I believe it very often. God, please can you help me look into this? Help me be free from this, or do whatever is your will about this particular topic. And I know nothing more than to keep offering it to you.' See what happens with that. The best news for all of us is that God knows our intention every moment, and that is what is important. Do you feel like there's a chance He couldn't know or He doesn't know? Right now you're trying to find the truth about who you are, or you're trying to find God in some way, either as His presence or as His guidance. You're trying to look for God in some way. Do you feel like there's a chance that He doesn't know that? He knows that fully.

And as long as He knows that and you keep remaining in the innocence of a child and you don't know too much, then our life is always going to be taken care of by Him. The only time where it seems like He takes a back step is when we start to think that we know a lot. So even this problem of the mind, if you just keep offering it to God, He will transform that also. So really, it is not about the method—whether our method is to be open and empty, whether it is to pray, whether it is to inquire, whether it is to just sit in communication with God—it is not the method that is important, but the fact that we have made this moment about Him and not about me, you see?

Actually, just this morning I heard something very beautiful. So, St. John of the Cross spoke about this. He said that we may think that we sat in prayer for half an hour but it was a terrible prayer session because we were constantly distracted by our thoughts. We may think it's a terrible prayer session, but he said that the way I look at it when it happens is that a hundred different thoughts came, they distracted me away from God, but I gently took the step back and tried to stay with God. So these thoughts coming gave me a hundred opportunities to love God by turning towards Him again and again.

So even though the mind itself will judge and say that your mind was too strong at that point, actually if we are using that, even that is an opportunity to say, 'Yes, I got stuck, but I'm with you again, God.' And it may happen just ten seconds later and you notice and you say, 'Okay, here I go again. I was stuck again, but I return to you.' And here I go again, but I return to you. And isn't there a strange beauty in this process of returning to God every time, so many times? It is the way we look at this which changes our whole perspective.

So when the mind is distracting, then look at that as a beautiful prayer session where, in spite of the mind's hundred temptations, you return. You try to return at least a hundred times. Even if you were not successful, God knows about your intention to return to Him. So we are making a mistake somewhere in all of this, which is to think that this is about some sort of perfection. See that spirituality is some sort of perfection? It is never going to be perfection. It is just going to be this moment. What is my intention this moment? What is my intention?

If I handed this moment over to God, then I may feel that whatever my attempt is—I wanted to be open and empty for two hours, I only succeeded for ten minutes—but I kept those two hours aside for God, isn't it? And that is what is important, because nobody really understands the mechanics of this, what has to be released, what is pent up within us, you see, how that process will unfold. So all we can do is say that this life is yours, or this hour is yours, or this minute is yours, and try to be as true to that as possible.

Whether we go into a deep samadhi where the world vanishes, or we seem constantly to be distracted by people around us, by noises around us, by things that we have to do—all of these distractions, nobody can really say, 'I have full mastery over any of this.' And one day it feels like, 'Okay, now this is easy,' and the next day shows you that it isn't. And that is very important to keep us humble. So just that you sat and you said that this ten minutes or half an hour or whatever period of time is for God, and you meant it truly, that is the best that we can do.

Just remember that He knows our struggle. You wanted to sit with Him but the mind was completely distracting; don't feel like He doesn't know that. He knows that, and that is very reassuring, isn't it? That the One for whom all these universes are like tiny grains of sand, that One is aware of my every movement, my every breath, my every intention. Then our life seems like it is completely held in Grace and love and light.

So in spirituality, if there is an operation, it is because the mind has made spiritual targets. The mind has made a perfection-type idea about our spirituality, and then that itself will get in the way of our spirituality. Is this moment about offering yourself up to God, or is it about attaining God? For me, I'm presuming that we are in satsang, so it must be either of these two. So remember that true spirituality, as difficult as it may seem, is a constant self-surrender, is a constant giving up of what we take to be ourselves. Then our true Self is found.

And because it's all a question of faith and Grace, we cannot say how much is right and how much is wrong. Very beautiful story also I heard in the same talk, and probably some of the most beautiful words probably that I ever heard. This is from another Christian sage, a mystic called St. Thérèse—Thérèse, not Theresa—Thérèse of Lisieux. She said that often times she would find a lot of dryness, aridity in her prayer. She would find that it's just she's sitting to pray, but those beautiful feelings of love and peace, they are missing. It just seems stale and dry and boring and full of distractions.

So she said that she used to feel like Jesus has had a really full-on day. He's just dealing with everybody and their wants and fulfilling them; He just had a full-on day and now He's resting. So I don't want to disturb Him from His resting by asking for this aridity in the prayer to be taken away. I want Him to rest. Beautiful, isn't it? I'm not saying it well, but um, it really touched me to have that kind of love even for God, that kind of care even for God. Because we are constantly chasing Him down saying, 'Do this for me, do this for me, do this for me.'

So here's a saint who's saying that, 'I'm feeling all this boredom, distraction, prayer is going terribly, but I want Jesus to rest because He must be tired after a full-on day.' I love that innocence and that love in that statement. But if you look at it deeper, I feel like she's also trying to say that doesn't God know that this is happening to us? He knows, and we can trust Him that even in this, there must be something good for us that will come out of it.

So there's an Indian sage called Hanuman Prasad Poddar Ji. He said that God knows only mercy. He knows only mercy; He doesn't know anything else. And we'd be in big trouble if He knew anything else, isn't it? So because He knows that I set aside this time in the morning to spend with Him, but instead of being able to spend that time with Him, this mind is coming strongly, this Maya is presenting all kinds of distractions, but I am, as much as I can, carrying the intention to keep returning back to Him. And if He knows that, that is more than enough for me, you see what I'm saying?

So just that the Father knows. For the more we remain inward-facing, most likely we will find that our love for Him deepens more and more. And the more that love deepens, the easier it becomes to remain inward-facing. So it's a virtuous circle. But many times—there was another sage who found a japa, he found that just the prayer was happening for him on its own. He didn't have to do anything at all. And then after many years of sadhana, he had this, and then he lost it for fifteen years. It never happened that the prayer was happening on its own in this way from the heart. Fifteen years he lost it, and then when it came back, he was so grateful. But it was very important because he shared all this experience with everyone.

So God's ways are always mysterious, and to remain faithful to God is always an act of faith. You will not understand. So it's a very fine balance. So I'm trying to relieve a lot of the spiritual pressure while not making it a complacency. Because very easily we can get into that: 'But I'm not the doer. If He wants it to happen, it'll happen. I'm just going to sit and watch TV all day. If He wants me to pray, He'll make me pray.' That is a misunderstanding of Advaita, and it is a serious misunderstanding of God Himself.

What would be my child's love if I forced him to love me? If I didn't allow him to pick between Maya and myself, and then he picked me, so that was true love. But if it was just robotic where he had to pick me, then what would be so great about the life of a sage? 'God only made him do it.' Why do we put their photos on the wall, you see? So it's fully God's will and it's fully up to us. This the mind cannot understand. So that's why a simpler way of putting it is to say that our job is to set the dinner table for Him every night. Whether the guest shows up or not is up to Him.

And an even simpler way of saying it is that if you feel you can do something in your non-spiritual life—you see that you can do this, you can get a job, you can go for a match, you can do something else—then don't fall into that idea that 'I'm not the doer' when it comes to spiritual things, because it's just the lip-service, armchair spirituality trap. Unless you truly lost your doership in all things, don't pick up these fancy ideas. It will just make you prideful and arrogant.

If you truly feel God eats breakfast for you, if He does your work for you, if He moves you every moment of the day—not just feel this when you're sitting in satsang and contemplating this, but actually moment to moment in your life—then you have gone beyond worship. Otherwise, your ideas of non-doership are just convenient laziness. Why is it that just when it comes to spiritual things we say like this? I say to someone, 'Why haven't you come for satsang?' They say, 'You haven't called me.' And I say, 'But I have been calling you.' But we don't live like that with everything else. We don't wait to be called. So fully, full-hearted offering ourselves completely and full Grace—both are true.

So if Krishna lives in your living room, how much time should you spend in your living room? It'll be foolish to not just always live there. So if He lives in your heart, then should we live... at what times is it to leave the living room? If Krishna is there, must be some when you have to do some really important work, obviously.

They’ve been calling you, but we don't live like that with everything else. We don't wait to be called. So, fully, full-hearted offering ourselves completely and full Grace; both are true. So, if Krishna lives in your living room, how much time should you spend in your living room? It'll be foolish to not just always live there. So, if He lives in your heart, then should we live? At what times is it to leave the living room if Krishna is there? Must be some when you have to do some really important work, obviously. Hey, you can't spend your whole life just living with Krishna; you have to do some important work. Yes, and as absurd as it may sound as I'm saying this, this is exactly what we do in our lives. 'I don't have time to pray' or 'I don't have time to inquire.' That only means that I don't value it that much. That's why Ananta said, 'Okay, you do all your important work, but while you do all your important work, just keep remembering His name.' And of course, he was being sarcastic about the important work because there is nothing more important than being with God. So, remember Him all the time. Remember His name. Take His name all the time.

Then you say, 'Okay, I can't do that because then I'm in that important work, as meetings, and then I have to be involved in those meetings.' Okay, every 15 minutes just set a timer on your phone and remember Him once. 'I can't do that because there's too much going on in my life right now.' Okay, then every one hour you can do? 'No, can't do that.' Then it's no longer a question of lack of time; it is a question of priority. One useful experiment is to replace God for a minute with a worldly relationship. So, just replace God with a worldly relationship, with a best friend or a partner, and just see how you treat him. So, to be present to God's presence is what we need. In every relationship, isn't it? To be present to the presence of one that we are in a relationship with is what every relationship asks for. So, why not our relationship with God in that way?

So, it seems like... do you know the process how ghee is made? How ghee is made?

Yes, sort of. Yeah, my wife left with sort of like the milk solids; they get separated from the... or forget it. No, no, somebody who knows can help. So, the milk solids get separated from the fat and it feels like for me there was always this desire coupled with something. With something like desire to do something, desire to eat, desire to do this. Now it feels like as if desire alone remains, like it is not coupled with anything, but this desire... it still is there and it's, yeah, making me crazy.

Okay, so you're saying that it's not desire for a thing, but just like a sense of desiring that remains? Like, how do you know it is there? What are the symptoms?

Oh, I cannot know that it is there because I'm not the knower.

So, the report about it being there always is speculation or knowing? Just speak as friends, don't worry about...

No, no, I'm just thinking how I can formulate it in a way it is humanly understandable. Yeah, it is as if it's there and not there. There's no one to experience it, but this body right now is saying that it is there. But for me, it is not there, you see.

Yeah, for the reality of you, there is no such thing as desire, you're saying?

Yeah, for the reality that is you, there is no such thing as desire. And maybe for the body also, maybe some sensations are there or something is there, but mostly it is proposed by the mind that 'I want.' Usually, what we call desire is that when the mind proposes that 'I want' and we take that notion to be reality, to be true, then that is what we call a desire. Are you using desire in a different way? You can tell me if you are. So, that is a given that for the reality of what you are, there is no possibility of having any desire. Is it now we are talking about the worldly play? Is it where it seems like 'I'm hungry' because for the reality of you, you're never hungry? 'I'm sleepy'—for the reality of you, you're never sleepy. So, we've kept the reality of you as awareness aside for a moment and you said, 'Okay, there's an aspect of you which feels like there is a grasping for something, a wanting of something, but this something is gone now and only like a grasping remains.' Like for the reality, nothing exists.

Yeah, it's only just... it's not even the 'I'. It's like so strange because for me nothing exists, but at the same time, yeah, something exists but I'm not aware of it. It's like I cannot even describe it.

What is the... so what are you trying to resolve with my question?

Yeah, everything that comes up right now is false. Like, there is nothing to resolve in reality.

Yes, there is nothing to resolve. But what is that which seems... what is that aspect of falseness which, when presented to you from time to time, still seems to be real? Maybe not in this moment, but on other times. Is there something at all?

Like I said, there is and there is at the same time nothing. I cannot say. That is the human condition.

And when there is, then what is it?

It is nothing. Nothing.

How is your day like?

My day is like... um, I'm not even aware of it. I just the whole day I'm sitting and doing nothing.

Like, you mean the body could still be doing, but you are not moving? Is that what you mean?

Yeah, the body could be moving, but the body is not moving most of the time. And I'm not even aware of it, what the body is doing or not doing. I'm just absolutely doing nothing.

Yeah. And if there's a memory of the past, was there a time where it switched into this kind of realization, or it's always been this way?

Like, even say it has always been this way. It's not even present. Like, yeah, yes, but even that realization is itself not there.

So, for you, is there anything in your heart where you feel like I can be of service to you?

Of service to... to what? To you? You can't... you can't find such a 'you.' In service of what exactly?

Of any way that I could help you or I could serve you or I could clarify something. Is there anything at all?

Oh, it's to you. To you from me to you. Ah, okay. Yeah, anything to clarify. You know, for the 'I', let's call it, that exists, but for me it doesn't. There's seemingly... it feels like the 'I' is exploding like every day. For the 'I', the world turns around 360 degrees. Like one day the 'I' could even think that he's possessed by a spirit. The next day that 'I' could eat ten Snickers. Yeah, the next day the 'I' could eat nothing at all. Like the last months it has been like this, like those periods of extreme polarity. But one week you're eating nothing at all, one week you're doing... like the 'I' is doing something completely different. And it seems so that I too have kind of a... like a doubt that: is it truly God's will? Is it truly God's will to eat like ten Snickers like as a meal for one week?

And what is the answer to that?

There is not.

So, this body lives in Germany all the time, or it's coming from somewhere else?

Right from Germany, yeah. And you're here in Bangalore for some time. Yeah, I'm going to leave tomorrow actually. But for three months I'm here visiting also Tiruvannamalai.

What about God?

How my relationship is with Him? Silence. I cannot answer that question.

Atma or Spirit?

No answer, because the words are not sufficient to express the depth of it or, yeah, like in that there's nothing to describe or arise. That's why I cannot answer.

Say that again.

In the Atma or in God, there is nothing to arise or describe. That's why I cannot answer it. I don't have anything.

What about love?

Love. Love is an experience. I don't have it. So, to be honest, the body has been for the past few months in like a deep depression. When I first realized, then the love of God was flowing and I realized, 'Ah, I lived for this.' Then I left everything. It disappeared. But it made me... the 'me' that was dissolving, it was like kind of a goal to achieve this ecstatic love. This ecstatic love, it was kind of a goal for the 'me' that was dissolving in God. But love right now is not flowing. Nothing is flowing. Absolutely nothing. I'm not trying to achieve that love because holding on to it is not making it more... disappear. Yes, yes.

And what are the symptoms of this? The body is depression, as you call it. Those symptoms?

You can say that every time a person tries to look at me, I get a kind of resistance coming and it's as if the person doesn't even notice me, like as if I'm invisible completely. It was the whole life. Also, I have trouble digesting things. Yeah, because maybe I also sit for so long.

So, when someone... when you say person, you're talking about somebody from the outside looks at you, it feels like a kind of energy?

Like I can just sit here. Maybe a person wants to look at me from here. She tries to look, like she tries to look, resistance is coming and then she looks away or he looks away. And that is leading to a depression or... yeah. So what happens after that? It goes away. It goes away, yeah. But it's too strong in that moment or no matter how much I try to fight it, it's, yeah, unavoidable. And that feeling, that sensation feels like depression. Yeah, after a long time when it happens, when nobody notices you.

Yes. So the insight about the true 'I', when you refer to that insight, do you refer to it freshly or do you refer to it from something that you already know?

I didn't understand the question.

The 'I', the reality, the reality of you. When you refer to that with words, are you referring to the insight which is fresh and alive, or is it something that you experienced in the past and now you know it, now it is sure?

Like to say it's here is not even there.

So, if I was to say where does the answer come from, what would you say?

The answer? Yeah. Oh, it comes from nowhere and from all of this that emerges from nowhere. Just for communication, we've given it labels like thought, intuition, the guidance from the heart. But do you feel like any of these labels fit into what you're saying, that they're coming from nothing?

Yes, everything comes from nothing. Yeah, yeah.

And yet for communication we say this is a thought, this is intuitive, this is guidance from the heart, this is I don't know. So, would you be able to label any of these into that? Label them into nothing or to differentiate?

Yes, your answers... are you able to apply any of these labels? Kind of yes, but they're falling away.

Yeah. So what would be that kind of yes? Which one? The kind of what? The kind of yes that you could... what would be the label you would use for the answers that are coming from you? From which label they're coming?

The answers are coming from... there's no label to it. There's no label to the answers. They're not coming from like intuition or something. It just happens. My mouth is opening, this body is talking, but I'm still.

For what happens to the realm of perception?

To my perception, it's just... I cannot say anything. There doesn't arise anything that I can say. I cannot describe it.

So you go tomorrow? Yes. Full, full blessings, full love. Thank you.

I really enjoyed the sharing of the brother who spoke earlier. So, yeah, just I want to thank him very much and bless his journey. And to be honest, I failed to say I wish he could stay more, but yeah. Something that also I heard when he said like his body is doing different things but he's not changing or he's not moving. And I guess what I... maybe I need your help with is to be able to see this, I guess, this situation that we are in from a maybe true perspective, if I say that correctly. Yeah, if you feel to share anything, please.

So, the false perspective is pretty apparent when the narrative is from the mind and it takes everyone to be just a limited body-mind. That pretty much is the false perspective. Then what is option two? Has a perspective, the higher self? Yes. So, what is that? And is there a difference in where that perspective comes from? So, you can have a perspective saying, 'This is a hand.' Then there can be another perspective saying, 'This is five fingers and a palm.'

Say that correctly, yeah. If you feel to share anything, please. So the false perspective is pretty apparent when the narrative is from the mind and it takes everyone to be just a limited body-mind; that pretty much is the false perspective. Then what is option two as a perspective?

The higher self, yes.

So what is that? And is there a difference in where that perspective comes from? So you can have a perspective saying, 'This is a hand.' Then there can be another perspective saying, 'This is five fingers and a bundle of flesh.' Then there can be another perspective saying, 'There are three digits possible in each of these fingers.' All of these perspectives are coming from the same place, which is the mind-intellect. Now, when we say the higher perspectives, what is the source of that? So let me illustrate for you. So don't need to say anything. I'm just... I don't want to give you an answer too fast. Good. And I'm not... I don't think the answer is represented by words in a way. Your question is pointing to something.

It just... it feels that I'm raising to the response, let's say, within my own self. Yeah, that's ready. That's right. You ask me what the source of the perception is, or what did you ask? What was the question, Father?

So what's the higher perspective? What is the source of the higher perspective?

The emptiness itself.

Emptiness, yeah. So what is emptiness saying?

It's saying nothing. There was an intuitive insight. There was some... for a moment, there was this—I'd call it thought—the intuitive thought, let's say, that what is happening in the manifest is to point to the emptiness itself. Good. Um, there is maybe at the lower level than the emptiness this question comes, okay, where I see the other who's in apparent suffering is other and is the sufferer, and there is an inclination to want to change that state. Not an inclination; an inclination is an understatement. There is a strong will and interest and commitment to change that state. I just wanted to call to see here because he's in the same situation, in the same cooking pot as me, so I hope he can grasp something out of this. Bless that.

Thank you. So for the lower perspective, we go to the mind. For the perspective of emptiness, yeah, Nirguna reality, what is the lens through which we find that answer? The answer of duality and other? To go to the highest perspective, we go to duality?

No, no. I said you're inviting me to go to Nirguna to find the answer of my question about duality. Asking that if the instrument of duality is the mind, yeah, what is the instrument of the highest emptiness? Okay, let me put this another way. That I can say emptiness just from my mind, or I can see emptiness from another place. What is that other place?

Everybody who's been in satsang can give an answer like Nirguna Brahman, the Ultimate Reality, the Absolute. But the answer can come from two places, isn't it?

Yeah, from knowledge and from the place itself. From the true seeing.

From the true seeing. So with what instrument does the true seeing happen?

There is no instrument. No instrument. For you have me something... there seems to be some sort of... when I answered you the first time 'emptiness,' it seemed from the higher level, and now it seems to be maybe some apparent stuckness in the lower level, or like some sort of energy, form of energy.

What about God?

God, that is... yeah, yeah. That is... now it feels to say that is this other force that pulls me out of shape or out of this...

God is a force? Like gravitation? And gravitation also pulls us out, pulls us in or out, pulls us like that? No. Is He a side character? Like the movie has, say, Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman and all the big stars, and then God is just one side character? He's not on the bench.

Not on the bench. That's good.

Where is He? If He's not on the bench, where is He?

Right now, it feels to say it's all-pervading.

It's all-pervading, yeah. Like space. He's just like space or gravity or magnetism, just everywhere, yeah. And how can we fall in love with space or gravity? It's absurd. Not source; it's our own source. Own source. What is spirit? Because this is spirituality, no? Satsang is just spirituality. Without spirit, it's not satsang. So what is spirit?

The incarnation of God into individuality? Spirit, Atma, is individuality?

Atma? Then what is Jivatma? What is the Atma doing now?

Nothing. While the higher perspective is empty and the lower perspective is body-mind doing, what is God's presence doing?

It's missing? Missing in action? No difference. Say again, what did you say?

I said there is no difference between God's presence and emptiness.

There is no difference? So we can say presence and emptiness is the same thing? It would be absurd to call not-being 'being.' Emptiness is not-being, or beyond being and not-being. Presence is being. So why use both of them, opposite-seeming things, synonymously? I don't know. It's good to find out. Good to find out. It would be good to find out what God's presence is, where it is, what it is doing. Why do we call this spirituality and not 'emptuality'? As so many people run from spirituality, if it's called emptuality, nobody will come. That's why. Empty. Um, yeah, it would be quite interesting to find out if God's presence is here, what it is up to. To know this, what role does it have for our lives?

It governs our life.

It governs our life, yeah. We wouldn't live without God. What is His presence? What is that presence that governs our lives doing or saying right now?

What you are saying. What we are saying.

It is just inert while we continue to suffer? Is it like that?

No, no.

What does it do? It causes suffering? It causes... and what gets rid of suffering? So God's presence causes the suffering and what removes it?

God's presence, yeah. Now, hi Father. Hello, can you hear me? Yeah, thank you. I just wanted to say hi and be here for a moment with you, and it's been a while. And I also want to share something that I noticed in this satsang. That in those couple of conversations that you had, it was more like more Gyan than Bhakti. I noticed that, I don't know if maybe... it's like a resistance to them or an inability to like connect deeply and to contemplate and that. But immediately when you started again to talk about God, it's like more connected to that. But I know that both are important and both we need. So I don't know if this is important or not, I just want to share this with you and have some guidance because I felt confusion around that or maybe checking too much, I don't know.

Yes, it's... I see this. It's understandable. And actually, I remember that when this expression started changing this way, then a lot of the sangha was feeling the other way, where they just want Father to stop with all this stuff and talk about how, you know, 'I am awareness alone and nothing has ever happened.' So it's natural. We get used to a particular way and we have to just follow the way spirit is guiding us, the Atma is leading us. So earlier it was like that, now it is like this. Tomorrow, I don't know how it will be. So this one-hour praying window, is it like set in stone or what?

What do you mean by set in stone? It's like... it is never one hour and fifteen minutes or one hour and five minutes? It's always exactly...

No, sometimes it's a bit less because I'm doing like a whole mala and it's around one hour. But I check; if it's too little, too short, then I continue for some more. But it's around an hour, yeah. Around, around. I'm happy that it's been very beautiful. Yeah, it's been persisted with it in spite of all the mind distractions and troubles. It's okay.

All yeah. What I've been like discovering is that the non-attachment to any outcome or not wanting or expecting anything—I cannot say that it's pure, pure this, but more and more it's just 'I don't care, I just do it.' I just have to do it. Doesn't matter what happens.

God, we can just be children. It doesn't... you don't have to know too much. Be innocent. Thank you, Father.

You keep at it. Keep at it. Okay, let's go to Clarissa first and see if we have time.

Hello, Ananta. Can you hear me? Yes, my... um, I just wanted to come up to say that there are such strong energies playing inside me and it's just like always 'What is it for me?' and that I'm not able to pray for others. It's always coming, 'What it is for me?' and I just wanted to expose this.

Thank you for sharing that. I used to say often that the mahamantra of the ego is 'What's in it for me?' So this is very common with everything. The mind wants to know what's in it for me. But you keep with the prayer, you keep with your inquiry. Listen and listen. But that is the human condition; everything needs to be to have something for me. It's okay. We have to keep at it.

Yeah, I stay with Guruji's guidance of being and I try to pray, but it's not very much that.

It's all right. As long as you are trying to make your day about God and not about yourself, it's all right. Thank you. Thank you that I could come. Okay, let's sing the Hanuman Chalisa.

Om Shanti Shanti Shanti. Ram Ram.