How Do You Know if You Entered the Heart Temple or Not? - 3rd December 2025

You see what happens if you say Ram, you say Jesus, you say Allah, you say Waheguru? What happens is that you make yourself—the intention is to remember the Higher One and to make yourself the side character, if at all, in this story. So the feeling, the bhav, behind the remembrance of God's name is that He is what my life is surrendered to. He is whom my heart belongs to. He is the love of my life. My very existence is His. Okay. So in that, the narrative of the 'me' that we wanted to add on to so much is kept aside. If our bhav is true, it is 'me for God' and not 'God for me'. You see, then the narrative-making will stop and we'll find ourselves getting empty of this 'me'.

In the same way, when there's so much happening and the thoughts are getting us from all sides and we say, 'I am so upset because the way he spoke to me,' for example, no? So if you were to, just through a lot of prior practice, be in the habit of asking yourself who you are—who is the one that is so upset?—then that will also break the narrative of this 'me' because we never find such a one, as much as you would like to in that moment, because we would love to be right in that moment. Then we ask ourselves, 'But who is here? Who is the one so upset?' So based on our temperament in that point of time, you see, we may say overall temperament—so we may be a Gyani or a Bhakta—but actually it also depends on that day, on that moment in time, you see. So both these helplines, lifelines, are available to us. So you break the false stream of attachment to the false. Then you don't fill yourself up with garbage anymore.

But how do you fill yourself up with God? That's the question. No? Following me so far? This is just the—I think every satsang we just discussed the fundamentals of what we are doing in satsang. What else can be discussed, really? So how not to do the mistake, the error, that should be clear first. So we didn't have satsang on Monday, so let's say Monday, Tuesday, did you devote the days to the 'me' inwardly? Not that Sundays have to be any different, but suppose we are just asking, what were the days devoted to?

It's a tussle.

Yeah. Yeah. That's why practice helps. So if you have days where no major drama happened, that means they are also days where we did not contribute to the major drama happening. You see, because we may not like this fact, but we are also party to the drama creation. All of us, including myself. So, but we don't ever feel that we are the ones who are doing that. You see, because we always feel like, 'I'm just speaking the truth. I'm just the one who's right. I've never created any problem for anyone.' No, most of us live like that. I live like that. I just feel like I have never created any problems for anyone. It's just these people in the world. You see, they are like this.

That is the ego's main thing. 'I'm right. I am so right. If everyone would just follow my lead, you see, listen to my direction, then there would be no trouble about anything because where have I ever created any trouble?' So, it's laughable when you look at it so starkly. But this is how all of us live. See that nobody really lives and says, 'Okay, half the trouble in my life is created by me.' At least half. So if we remove ourselves from the equation, if we remove the 'me' from the equation, then half the trouble—at least half, if not all, actually—but the fertile ground for the trouble is now removed.

So suppose we've come to this place where the narrative of the 'me', the story of the 'me', is not so important to us. Now self-concern is minimal. Self-righteousness is minimal. Desire is minimal, which is self-will is minimal. Okay. Then how about how—where are we in filling the bucket with regards to God? It's very important that we did the first step, that if there was no space in the bucket, then what will spirit actually occupy? We've created the space. Then how do we fill it with God? So there's God. Where is God? In the heart, let's say, almost poetically speaking, but not far from reality. So in the heart is His presence. Now we had the bucket. The bucket is empty. Now what are we to do? Huh? Wait. You see? And whatever helps us to wait.

So inward-facing, as the bucket is facing inwards, God's light is there. So you want to get it and you go into the sun. You see, you want transformation of your heart into the Atma. You wait till the Atma's presence. Should be quite straightforward. But what's the problem? Yeah. You know you're supposed to do it. All of us do. I know I'm supposed to do it. Do I? No. Not as much as I would want. So like this. Then what happens? Isn't it? They're struggling.

No, that is the whole Mahabharat actually. They are just trying to do that.

Exactly. Exactly. So when you come here, you see, and God's love is pulling you closer and closer in, it is the biggest blessing, you see. But what does Maya do? Maya doesn't say, 'Okay, let's go out and you get more trouble.' It says, 'This is a bigger blessing for the moment,' you see, or 'This is more urgent for the moment.' And know that I'm not talking about the outer movement of the body. I'm talking about where your heart lies. So our heart lies where we find the greatest treasure, to borrow from Jesus's words.

So Maya does not always just pull us in with trouble. You see, with the—it is always trouble, but that is not the marketing. You see, the marketing is a greater, more important thing, a more important pleasure, desire, a more important urgency, something, you see, which then tempts us, takes our heart away from God's presence. So if Maya was not there, union or God-realization or self-realization, whatever words you want to use, would not be a challenge at all. But because Maya, therefore heart full of other desire, therefore we are not able to stay waiting for God's light to completely transform us into God Himself. And whether we say transform or recognize, there's not really a difference, but the waiting is important.

You see, many people get into this mistaken idea that, 'Okay, what do I need to recognize? You see, yeah, I recognize that I am one with the sun.' You see? So, okay, I'll just say I recognize it, because that's how conceptual knowledge works. You see, what is the shape of this earth? You see, seems flat, but everyone says it's spherical. So, now I recognize it to be spherical. Huh? Do we really? We don't really—we have not recognized it. No, we've never actually recognized it to be spherical. We've taken a concept to be true. You see, so in the same way in Advaita, many times we may take the concept that 'I am just the Self' to be true and we may call that a recognition.

You see, or you may close your eyes, you may find a dark empty space for a moment. You're not in your imagination or memory and you may say, 'Ah, that dark empty space, that is me,' and we may call that the recognition. You see, neither of them is—the first one definitely not, but the second one is also very dangerous because it can give us the false notion of recognizing reality. 'I saw there's no me. There's just a dark empty space over there.' So that dark empty space is as far as my attention could go. So I must be that, because I've been told nothing has been born there, nothing ever died there, nothing ever happened there. It sounds like that. You see?

But just know that the perception of that dark empty space is as far as our attention can go, as deep as our attention can go, not the reality of us. Because the question still can be asked: what perceives or who is aware of that dark? Is that dark? And this question is very troublesome, very irritating, because we felt like bringing our attention away from thoughts, memory, imagination, sensation—all that itself is such a difficult job. We've done that and we escaped it for a few minutes and I found myself in this sort of limbo state. Now he's telling me it's not even that. Irritating. Unfortunately, true.

So then who is aware of even that? Now I know that you know the answer and I wish that you didn't. You see, because your knowing the answer here gets in the way of your knowing the answer here. That's why all these answers used to be kept in secret in the earlier days. They were not shared in the open till the teacher found that the student, the disciple, is really open, really empty. Is it? Anyway, now we know the answer.

Now he's telling me it's not even that irritating. Unfortunately, true. So then who is aware of even that? Now I know that you know the answer and I wish that you didn't. You see, because your knowing the answer here gets in the way of your knowing the answer here. That's why all these answers used to be kept in secret in the earlier days. They were not shared in the open till the teacher found that the student, the disciple, is really open, really empty. Is it? Anyway, now we know the answer. But you have to be sincere in your inquiry knowing that your conceptual understanding of the answer is of no value. In fact, it may be detrimental. You see, so how many after hearing this, how many are still on the Jnana path? It should be okay. You see, because if that is what you're drawn to, you must not give it up after hearing that we were confused by something. And in fact, it should inspire you more to dig even deeper.

You see, no Zen koan was ever solved by being solved. Are you getting the point? Doesn't mean that it wasn't solved. Got it? Huh? Solved. It is not solved by being solved. You see, it is dissolved by a superhuman mechanism, by a mystical mechanism. The inquiry will not be solved by your intellectual grasping at the question of who you are. It'll be solved in a mystical mechanism which is beyond the mind and intellect. And mystical doesn't mean some voodoo magic stuff. You see, mystical only means that God is the source of truth. God is the source of true knowledge. And that mechanism of knowledge which we call intuitive insight is actually godly in nature. Getting what I'm saying?

So I'm saying you may say, 'Who am I now? I know I'm not this body. I know I'm not my senses. I know I'm not my imagination. I know I'm not my feeling. I know I'm not ultimately even my presence. I am aware even of presence and absence.' You see, then we cannot say, 'Therefore, then I must be the Nirguna, the attributeless reality.' We can't put the 'therefore' there because 'therefore' is still intellect. So we patiently wait, empty like that, not identified, for something godly to unfold. That is called what? Grace. So that godly unfolding, that mystical unfolding, that which is more natural than nature. You see, so that which is supernatural is actually more natural, more organic than before we put on this garb of being somebody. You see, so over there is where that holy revelation can happen. You following me so far? Yeah.

And the same thing happens when we are no longer interested in our story and only interested in God. So in His love we wait, you see, or in our love for the truth we wait. Either way, the capital T is also God and the capital G is also God. Satyam Shivam Sundaram—the same thing. The truth with a capital T and God with a capital G are both the same. So if you love the truth deeply, you love God whether you like it or not. And if you love God deeply, you love the truth whether you like it or not because they are the same. And it is that love which makes us patient, which makes us humble, that gives us the capacity to remain empty.

Isn't there one more step we can take beyond waiting patiently, lovingly and empty for God? There is no more into surrendering everything at His feet or just calling out to Him that comes? I don't know if it's like something is there in the emptiness also that I was feeling like you.

Yes. When sandalwood hits the stone within that process of making sandalwood paste, then fragrance is bound to be smelled. So when that love which is beyond feeling is shared between the Antahkarana and the Atma, between the soul and spirit, then it is very natural at times for there to be a great outpouring of love, peace, bliss, joy. You see, and that should then serve as an anchor to us remaining there even more. But remember that the true meeting in love is prior to feeling, perception, understanding, you see. But it is helpful when this outpouring comes in the form of a felt love out of a love which is beyond any fathoming, because that felt love also serves as a good anchor for us to remain in God's presence. Is it?

So that is when prayer—because this is what prayer is. Prayer is not just the petition part. Contemplative prayer or self-inquiry or Nididhyasana is this coming to this, remembering to remain in this prayer even if the outpouring doesn't come. You see, or it seems like the more you're going in, the more reactive the mind is becoming. Okay, either things can happen or nothing may happen. Like you may just feel it is so dry, but always remember that what is happening in that sacred chamber is secret from the mechanisms of the world's understanding. And the world in this case is our ability through perception and thinking to fathom. Huh? They seem like quite a waste at some level. It seems like, 'What is the point if this transformation is happening in my heart and I can't even see it?' See, but if you could see it, then it would become another object of Maya and then you would need no faith because the world's motto is 'seeing is believing.' Here, if your heart tells you, it is believing.

Exactly. This point is very, very important that there is no real way in which you can gauge your progress in prayer except that what is the time that you spend in it. That is the only gauge.

Exactly. Still, no, the meeting has to happen prior for the result to happen. But what I'm saying is that don't rely on that outpouring to say that it was meaningful. Is it meaningful? Enjoy the outpouring as the Prasad from the Darshan. But if there is one day in the temple there is no Prasad, it doesn't mean that no Darshan happened. How do you know you went to the temple if you didn't get Prasad? So suppose that your mind is your family. Huh? Now you went to the temple. You didn't get the offering back for them, Prasad back for them. So how do they know you went to the temple? Suppose you come back same, only worse also. No better mood, no better love, no nothing. How they know you went to the temple? They won't know exactly. They will never know.

So your mind will never actually know. You see, in reality it can judge on the basis of the outpouring like you're saying, 'Oh, you seem different' or 'There's more love that was experienced,' but in the true place they can't really ever know. You see, how will you ever know that you entered the temple? So if your mind can never know, how can you know? You turned inward and then what happened? Yeah. So that's turned inwards. Then after that, where is all that tanning, photosynthesis, photo booth of the Atma transformation? Now how will you know? We discussed the mind which is your family now. Right now you have started to question yourself: 'Did I actually go to the temple?' So how are you to confirm that you went because your family asked you, 'Did you really go and tell us how? Where is the Prasad? Where is the loving feeling? You're looking the same also, in fact you're looking more tired than before.'

Slowly, slowly, so let's go slowly. So now the mind doesn't know, your family. So the mind is—we are using the analogy of the family. So the family is questioning you. You were away for two hours. Where did you go? Now, we said the mind doesn't know. Now, I'm asking how you know. Are you able to follow? Everybody's like, 'What is he on about?' This is a critical part in prayer. Yeah. Is it very subtle or not even subtle? It's like, subtle would be like, 'I have a sense of it, like the primordial vibration of it' or something like that. But I'm saying that is this knowledge even beyond subtle? It is. Mind is very gross. Intuitive insight is subtler, subtler. You see, the outpouring comes, it's quite subtle, like the outpouring in the form of love or knowledge is both the outpouring. Like if it can be deciphered that I can say that God is here or I can say that God prays in my heart, you see, I have deciphered it. But still, even this subtlest knowing is still more gross than that. You see? So I know I was in God's presence even in the intuitive way that I'm able to translate into words that 'I know God's presence'—all of these words, you see, which may be subtler than 'I know I went to...' you know, like that. Still very subtle, but still more gross than the purity of a heart knowing which is ineffable. Yeah, take the mic. It's important for everyone.

Let me go. What is left out?

Left out. Correct. But specifically the mind is left out. Sensory perception is left out. Imagination, memory.

Even a felt love. All feelings are out. Then how do we know that something is pulled in?

Because it's operating system.

Yes. But what do I mean by faith?

Faith. And I'm saying faith is not just 'take my word for it' is faith. You know, in fact, it is not that at all.

Exactly. So then what is faith? So that is the source of knowledge of faith. Isn't it just sounds like just made up hocus pocus?

It's true hard knowledge. Yeah. Okay. So, let me give you an example. One brother says, 'I had beautiful prayer today. It was full of love.' Another sister says, 'I had very distracted prayer today. I tried to sit and my mind was so hyperactive.' Another sister says, 'I don't know, prayer was... me, you know, I don't know, some nothing really happened. You see, there was no love felt, mind was little distracted but not too much also. It was just regular.' What to do with these three reports? Which is better? Which is worse? Huh? All of them are bad. Bad in the sense all of them can be safely thrown away.

Are you with me, Father? Yes. They are experiencing what we were talking about, and before this what we spoke about being—that's not an experience at all.

The exact point we are making is that the ability to experience sensorially or think about it or imagine is all left out anyway.

So in that case then we are always... Yeah. What is the question in that case? What is the difference between praying and not praying?

Yeah. The difference is that have we handed over our will? Have we taken out that time just for God? Have we offered up ourselves with the intention of our heart belonging to God or put all questions of truth there? So the same... okay, so Ram and the feeling behind the Ram is that 'I belong to You. You own me. There is no me except for You.' So one mold could be that that happened and it's all empty after that. You see? So the outpouring can be subtly felt. There's a sweetness. There's an ease of being. You see? So all of this sounds very beautiful and it's very natural for us to say that was good prayer. Now suppose 'Ram' and the mind is just everywhere. No feeling is being felt.

Father, behind that if I'm still experiencing...

Depends, because all these words start to lose meaning. Like there's a peace which is the felt peace. No, I'm not talking... I'm talking about the presence.

Let's say presence, or whether we call it presence or silence or stillness. You see, it's very difficult now to put these things into words.

But it's got a distinct flavor.

Flavor, not flavor. Like the flavor, is it sweet or salty? Godly, like divine.

In what? Like godly to me sounds like such a beautiful taste.

The right thing, I'll just say it because how I see it. Because yesterday my body was very active, not very active, it was like that last date, it was on some trip. But behind that I was one in a very... working in moments I was in a tasteless...

Reduce the water. Father, there is some taste to coming there. So what I'm asking, like there is no... there is a divinity, there is a felt... now I don't know what it is.

Suppose that no felt was there.

Well, that's why like yesterday was a good experiment for me the whole day. Okay, there was no felt, but yet it was, you know...

What is that 'but yet'? Is faith. Are you making it up?

It's not at all.

Your mind can completely attack it constantly saying, 'You're making it up.'

And it did the whole day.

It will do that because there's like the family saying, 'How do you know you went to... how do we know you went to the temple?'

But it's too... like it's too apparent, both of...

Not in any traditional way, you see. So if two years back if somebody had told you this is what apparency is, you would have... I wouldn't get it at all.

What is that which yet is faith? Are you making it up? Your mind can completely attack it constantly, saying you're making it up. It will do that because there's like the family saying, 'How do you know you went to the temple? How do we know you went to the temple?' But it's too apparent, not in any traditional way, you see. So if two years back if somebody had told you this is what apparency is, you wouldn't have got it at all.

Exactly. How is that apparent?

Exactly. So now we are realizing a different mode of knowledge, which is what I've been trying to explain for many years: that when we leave our perception and thinking behind, we are not lost, but we are found. But in what way are we found? We can't express.

Yeah, it's very hard. And Father, it is only without flavor, no 'there' at all. Fully out of all moves and gone like that. And it's very like—I wouldn't mind living there forever, you know. But there are times like when there is a kind of a brightness to it, you know, like a shiningness to it. I don't know if I can...

Yes. So that is what I always experience in the background of—the shiningness is in the foreground of the emptiness. This witnessing, you see, even the shining which is barely perceivable and yet apparent is in the foreground of that which is completely unperceivable and fully apparent in the right mode of knowledge. Right. And so the more we live in the right mode, the more that gets apparent. That's how I'm hearing.

And that is how faith grows.

Deepens. Yeah. Wow. And the faith grows so much that it pulls the rest of us, ourselves, in. You see?

So Father, the way in this would be that we turn inward and then when we are met with that indulgence or the shining presence, then either to stay there or to inquire deeper? Like, how would you suggest?

To stay there, because the purpose of the inquiry was to get you there. To that where the outpouring of the more subtle vibration may be noticed, but there where even the source of that is known but never understood.

Yeah. The foreverness of it, like that's how I meet it, that it's like effortless. The eternal nature of it, all the scriptural pointers which are true. Right. Um, about 'stay there.' I have to feel like I'm really not good at staying there and then something comes.

Same, no, that Maya distraction.

Maya distraction. Or some—like that moment it's like a death, right? It's like you're not there. So this 'you,' when your thought comes, it's like coming back to life. That 'me' comes and the 'me' says, 'Stay there. Stay there.' Okay. Something like this. I feel like that whole thought of 'stay there'—is that away from...

Exactly. Exactly. So that's why as a pointer it has to be followed but not like understood.

Very strange.

It is. That's why those who are being empty are not being empty. Yes.

Because since I stopped like saying to myself 'stay there, stay there,' I have...

So yeah, but the minute you make an affirmation of the opposite, then that stops being true as well. Like if we say that 'I abide more by deciding not to abide,' then that's also not true because then the way to abide now is by not trying to abide, and then that becomes an attempt at abidance. Yes or no? 'I'm going to just—it helps my abidance if I try not to abide.' So then that whole thing becomes a trying to abide. So there's no escaping it as long as we give truth value to any construct. Yes. That's why I used to be a little more crude earlier. They say you don't make a temple to Harpic. Because Harpic is to do the cleanup job. Now once you've done the cleanup job, then it has to be kept aside. So the words to get us there are just words that do the cleanup job. They are not true. They're not true in the sense they're not capital T Truth.

Very practical. The space that we are talking about—how does one decide that? And do you do that? Sometimes I feel like it actually then finally disturbs me and if I don't put it, I sometimes don't sit till the timer comes. So what is the right way?

No, I just say, okay, now life has made space for one hour or life has made space for two hours. But when I'm inside, then I'm not so focused on how much time has passed. You know, eyes open and sometimes I see, oh, one hour has passed. Many times it happens that life just takes care of itself very organically. Many times it may feel like a shorter time has passed or a longer time has passed. That's okay.

So one can leave.

Yeah. So if you open your eyes for a minute, it's not going to hurt anything. You open your eyes and you can close them again if you have more time. A lot of this will ultimately—the point of it is not to build the muscles for it to happen with eyes closed. The point of it is to build the muscles so that we stay like that even when our eyes are open and our world is full of stuff. But we shouldn't rush into that as I said it. I got a caution from my heart then, because then our pride is this way. We immediately say, 'Oh, Father said the point is with eyes open.' So then I'm just—no, we have to do that practice till we come to the point of this kind of mastery. In a way, I'm scared to use that word. So don't feel like you have to rush into being like that in mind with eyes open, and don't make that an excuse to not do focused prayer because you just feel like—and that was a trap we got into last time when I used to share about open and empty. So then I had to, by God's grace, we all took a big deepening project and now I feel like the open and empty is being really met from the truer place. But don't allow the notion of, 'Oh, I'm just open, I don't need to practice anymore,' this kind of rubbish to get in. Okay.

So whatever can be done, whether it's a prayer or it's still in the realm of mind only—but the realm of mind is actually a collection of all our faculties. So prayer is actually a collection. Even inquiry actually—it may seem like a mind-intellect exercise, but it's basically a gathering of all our faculties and making them as an offering to the Truth or God. You see? So I wouldn't call prayer or inquiry a mind exercise. What happens to us when we pray, when we take God's name even once? Is it just 'Ram'? Is it just at the very gross surface level? The first invocation of the Lord's name may be just mental, but after a point, what happens? You start to see that your intellect, your feelings, your imagination, memory—everything starts resolving into one, actually dissolving into your heart. So if you mean that they are still in the projected phenomenal, yes. You see, they are still in—till this point, all of these faculties are in the phenomenon. You see? But the pulling into the non-phenomenal happens by God's grace. The best we can do is to gather ourselves and make ourselves as food for God.

Yes. And Father, at best I can explain the later part of it is an absence of everything, Father, or absence of phenomena.

Yes. And that's where the struggle is. The most faith is required to stay there forever. Yes. Exactly, exactly. Because that's why I said that one thing is family asking, 'Did you go to the temple?' Second, you yourself, like, 'Did I go?' Because what is the phenomenal evidence of that visit? No, within you'll come back to see. Yeah, when you're pulled in.

When you're pulled in, yeah. You are not experiencing it as a state. You said it's not a state. Can you explain?

Like, what you experience as a state is a collection, a gathering of all our faculties, isn't it? So a state would be something which is phenomenal, and beyond phenomenal is no state. Yeah. It's literally stateless. For it to be a state, there has to be some attribute, some quality. The very definition of stateless is that literally, like, it can't be positioned.

One more thing I want to ask you. You say go to the unperceivable. So the true unperceivable would be the witnessing itself, right? Because...

That you have to answer.

Because I've been contemplating this. Because the taste of the presence is something still, you know, and only what witness is that?

What's the answer? What witness is that?

I witness that.

How is that known? How do you know that it is 'I' which witnesses this? Do you see this 'I'? Is it felt?

Not at all. It has literally no quality.

How is that known? Because it's prior to everything. It's not even—because it's prior, it is more. No, it's so hard to say. Because our temptation is to say it is 'just,' no? You see, but it is that 'just' which I'm trying to bring to the forefront. You see? And it is that which we take to be concrete, which is the senses and the thinking, which I'm trying to bring into the background. You see? So remain where that is known.

You mean don't try to force the words?

It's impossible to share. It just has to be pointed to in some way. How do you know that you're following God's will? For example, the most foolproof is that you remain where you know yourself. You see blank. The blank I've experienced in my attention. Where do we experience a blank? Or Father, the absence of thought, like she said, could be blank. The absence of perception we call blank. But the absence of perception where even the perception of dark and empty is not there—would we call that a blank? Theoretically, yes. Who is following this question? If this room went dark, lights went dark, lights went off, you see, I'm not perceiving anything. But is that true? No. You're still perceiving darkness. You see? So now that we may call a blank, that I'm not perceiving anything but darkness. But who is aware? Because perceiving stops there. Who is aware of that which is beyond even this absence of perception? Is that a blank? Yeah. It's obvious in the right mode. It's completely oblivious in the wrong mode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So now what we have to be really careful of is that we have to prevent making like a conceptual framework about it. Huh? Because soon, in a day or two, the conceptual framework will start posing as if it is that. You see, just like we do with worldly knowledge. 'Oh, what is the shape of the world? It's spherical.' You see, we don't need to check anything anymore. We know it. So many times it happens for those who are coming to insight that the mind will say, 'Huh, I know this.' You see? So just for a few years, keep it fresh. Yeah. Yeah. Good. That's good.

I heard you like that. This is said to be that—like you would say that you should never come to a point where you say that in 2025 I saw. That's how I heard you today. You see, like I don't want to say in January 2009 I saw something. You see, why do I have to refer to the past? Is the Truth not here now?

Yeah. So rely always on the fresh Truth because that will keep you safe. The minute it starts to become like 'I have understood,' you see, that is when the danger starts. I can see the veil is put and then how I have to bring myself back, and it's put and I have to bring myself back. See, because conceptualizing even about this is to get into Avidya, definitely. So that's why I just have to keep it innocent forever, like this baby must not grow up, you see? Because this freshness of this Atma Gyan must be kept alive, and we contaminate it by understanding it.

You know, Father, for a long time I felt all in our own ways and we can—I feel like we can, because it's like us, you know. It's so—it's not—I don't know how to say it, never mind. But the fact that I saw you today, that about the sage living in it, like again and again coming like...

That's this Sadhana. That's how I heard that this is Sadhana.

Exactly.

So our practice is never over. It is only over when sleep or when Maya goes away. Okay. You can pass the mic to someone. Put it on. It's not on.

I just wanted to clarify the way I'm saying if it is right.

Yes.

But we, because it's like us, you know, it's so... it's not... I don't know how to say it, never mind. But the fact that I saw you today, that about the sage living in it, like again and again coming like... that's this sadhana, that's how I heard that this is sadhana.

Exactly. So our practice is never over. It is only over when sleep or when Maya goes away. Okay. You can pass the mic to someone. Put it on. It's not on.

I just wanted to clarify the way I'm saying if it is right. Yes. So she said, 'I put a timer when I tried.' Like if I'm traveling and I like it, I'm very impatient to... I just leave it and I get very distracted very easily. So it's... and like if I... when I try to just chant, chant, chant, and then we have to try being empty also. I don't know if I know what is being empty properly because for... even if I try like very hard, how do... why do I tell it happens and then then I again...

What's your favorite bhajan? I promise you I'm answering your question. I'm using this example.

So these days I'm listening to 'Kunj Bihari' again.

So what happens? Why is it your favorite?

When I'm like concentrating on it or focusing on it, so I feel a lot of... like, oh, this... like, a lot of love and this is where I...

So you heard 'Kunj Bihari' and after hearing it, immediately you want to go to the next song? You don't want to go, you just want to... I'm presuming correctly, but you want to stay with the something, stay with the effect in a way of that song. So in the same way, when we have prayed, when we have done the inquiry or prayer, then we have to stay with the effect of that, the gift of that. And the mind doesn't want us to stay with the gift of that. It quickly wants us to go to what's next, what's next. But there are things in our lives—it could be a beautiful flower, it could be a beautiful song—that make us still for at least a few more moments. You see, now what I want all of us to do in our prayer is that we've cooked by chanting or by doing the inquiry. We've done the cooking, but we have to wait to see what we can't... the whole message of Satsang today is that we can't actually see what happens after that, but just give yourself at least a few minutes of being empty, silent on the inside. And then you will find that there's a certain magnetism even in that, you see, that holds us in and it takes a like a snap to pull us out. Am I getting through somewhere?

So like immediately our mind may be active. So okay, let me take the whole thing. So active mind, something, some alarm rang that I have to pray. So, okay, I have to pray. So, then we sat for half an hour. We took the Lord's name. Um, like a mala helps, use the mala. If you do it without it, it's fine too. You see, now your alarm rang or timer rang and you saw half an hour got done and you were taking God's name. I'm saying that don't get up immediately after that. Try to remain just inwardly silent. No forcing, no pushing, no trying to get into any state, nothing. Just like you are offering yourself fully to God. Now you've invoked His presence. You give Him a chance to respond. You see, so far you've called Him, called Him, called Him. You see, called Him, called Him. Now you have to sit and see whether He came also. You see, so as long as we can sit without troubling ourselves too much, then we sit. That sitting is very helpful and that sitting is most bothersome to the mind. The mind would much rather us do some active form of practice, which is not bad, but the active has to bring us to the surrendered state. You see, like after a point we just surrender. So that right hands open, empty like that. So even if it starts with a few minutes—two minutes, five minutes, ten minutes—then that can take a depth of its own and start to seem more and more natural to us. So allow this to become more and more natural.

Even though initially it may seem quite difficult, to not do anything is more difficult than to climb the highest mountain. To not do anything is sometimes more difficult than to climb the highest mountain. Okay? The mind would rather have us do the most impossible thing than to just be doing nothing. Not even thinking, not even concluding, not even praying, not even remembering God, not even inquiring, nothing. Um, so this earlier thing you were discussing, Father, about how do I know that I've gone to the temple?

So I am at a very basic level, Father. So um, all I am able to do so far is... um, that too I'm not sure of it often, is that I am not going with my thoughts. So, so if there are a lot of thoughts then I try not to hold on. So then I... so in a way I try to forget it. So there's a thought, it's forgotten, then something else, it's forgotten in that way. Then when um, what I feel or what I recognize as being empty is when I'm... when there is no thought into which my attention is going. That I'm many times I perceive that, that I'm looking at that blank, dark, empty space. And then sometimes I remember what you say, Father, that it's not this dark empty space, so then I try to see who is the one who is aware that I'm looking at the dark empty space.

Yeah, and that's as far as I'm able to go further. So there it's just... I know that there is some... there's something in me. When you ask 'Who is the one?', ask now: who is aware of the dark empty space? What is your answer?

I am aware, Father.

How do you know that? Are you seeing this 'I'?

No, Father.

Are you speculating that it must be 'I'?

No. No. I can't hear clearly. Can you all hear me clearly?

So, you're not seeing it, perceiving this 'I'. You're not making it up or just saying because you think you know the right answer. Then what is the basis of your answer?

I don't know, Father.

Very good. Very good. That's as far as we can go. So we just have to stay like that. So really the question is: what do we know when we know nothing? And let nothing disturb you from this practice, from knowing nothing. If knowing nothing as a concept gets in the way, throw it away. If knowing something as a concept gets in the way, throw it away. If 'throw it away' gets in the way, throw it away. There's no love and truth. You know, you said something... um, I just sort of missed it a bit... um, in the presence of the non-phenomenal, the um, intellect, memory is drawn into that as well. It's all one.

No, I'm saying what is that?

Let me explain. So that which seems to be so scattered, just helter-skelter, first that gets recollected. In the earlier days, somebody would have called it one-pointedness or ekagrata or something like that. You see, but we don't have to bother so much about it. It's a natural process that happens in the unfolding of our devotion and our unfolding of our love for truth. So all this which is so bothered—or 'What does he think about me?', 'Why is she like this?', 'Why is he like that?', 'Why does he...'—all that stuff is just all over the place into all rubbish. Then through whatever way it stops bothering with all of that, is not so attracted to all of that, and when it's left unbothered, then it settles. You see, it settles and it comes at the doorway of God's light, the Holy Spirit. And our sensory perception, our memory, our intellect... at this point, we'll be able to hold on to the outpouring that may come from that. That's why I'm calling it the prasad or the offering after the darshan.

But the actual darshan itself, the actual insight itself, the holy revelation itself cannot happen to any of these mechanisms of our soul, of our existence. They happen at that level which doesn't have words to express. We may call it intuition, but it's not... it's a stretch. So at some level which is beyond human, we get a revelation into His reality, which is our reality. And this revelation happens only by His grace. Because besides gathering ourselves up and standing at the door, there's really nothing we can do to force our way in. See, it's completely another matter that once one finds their way in, those ones will always say that, 'Hey, we were already in.' So as inspiration that is good, but it can also be very frustrating because when others hear that, they're like, 'I'm not already in, I'm still looking for the truth,' you see? And the same ones tomorrow when they, by God's grace, find their way in, will also say, 'I was already in.' Now it is very dangerous to start saying 'I'm already in' just by a conceptual knowing of it, because otherwise there's no point to spirituality at all. Everybody starts saying 'I am the Self, I am, I am one,' you see? Then there's really... it's a mockery of true spirituality.

So sorry if I started in a meditative way and went to a rant, but it's very easy to get trapped in these kind of things. So that humble, patient, faithful, grateful waiting is when we receive insight, we receive love, we get transformed. All of these aspects which are even waiting outside the door doesn't mean that they're being punished. They are being blessed and they are being transformed just in the holy light. But the light inside the door is too strong for them to take. They would not survive. So they have to wait outside. The light is too bright and therefore it cannot be seen. That's why it's a dazzling darkness as opposed to worldly darkness which is not dazzling. Today they've all decided, 'Our Father said no, none of you asked me, I don't have a good report, my mind is bullying me a lot, able to hear and not not able to hear.'

Let it... there is nobody, maybe myself also, who has heard the entirety of Satsang today. Firstly, I'll tell you that it's not possible to carry attention span for so long. Now, how much do you need to hear for it to transform you? Maybe just a few. So don't get bullied by the mind further by saying, 'No, I didn't get to hear the whole Satsang.' No, that... be grateful that God is... God's grace allowed you to hear even a little bit in Satsang, you see? Then with that gratitude, then everything which is auspicious will grow. Yeah, with the fear of self-concern, then everything starts to diminish. So was it good, the part that you were able to hear? So if you apply even that, just whatever little you see, even five minutes if you are in Satsang but you apply it, then it is more than...

I heard the first part, beginning of the Satsang where you mentioned the mind goes here, here, here, and um, it takes... took that as a cue and it took you into all work things or some favorite topics or what about myself. Okay, self-beating. And but you mentioned that it does everything but to keep you in God's presence. Then my mind started to pose questions that 'What is God's presence?' and 'I don't know how to be in God's presence.' But then you later mentioned it, you have to wait after prayer, so that it's like, okay, my soul is...

What is your prayer life like besides Satsang?

Father, I get up in the morning and first thing, like the maid comes and then I sit for prayer for an hour. I doze off in between. So I sit again and then at evening or night I started to pray again for an hour and as you also had mentioned last time to keep some time for silent sitting. I have begun that too and I try to wait. It feels very... that at home when you're in silent sitting, is it very distracting?

It is very difficult. Very difficult. I feel that like, 'When is it getting over?' or like I also put the alarm bell and I'm like, 'Okay, I'm waiting for it to ring.' And uh, sometimes in between, sometimes it feels I don't want to chant and just stay quiet and then I'm not worried about timing or anything, but these are very few, rare moments, but yes.

Yeah, so if you've taken say one hour, one hour is good. So suppose that after half an hour you felt like just sitting quiet, so you become quiet. Then after maybe just three minutes the mind becomes very distracted. No, suppose... what to do then? Instead of trying to, 'No, I'll be quiet, I'll just be quiet,' return to your name, return to your chanting. So, because that will give you the momentum to slip into silence. So our prayer, our inquiry is like the rocket fuel which puts us into orbit. But what I was trying to avoid...

Yeah, so if you've taken, say, one hour, that is good. So suppose that after half an hour you felt like just sitting quiet, so you become quiet. Then after maybe just three minutes, the mind becomes very distracted, no? Suppose what to do then? Instead of trying to know, 'I'll be quiet, I'll just be quiet,' return to your name, return to your chanting. Because that will give you the momentum to slip into silence. So our prayer, our inquiry, is like the rocket fuel which puts us into orbit. But what I was trying to avoid is that we go into orbit and then we come back immediately down, you see? So that would be a mistake, isn't it? You allow your prayer to boost you into orbit and then you float in orbit as long as you can, until gravity pulls you back in. So that's it. So if the mind becomes too active, then go back to the prayer if you have time. But every time you make the attempt to go back to silence or God's presence, count that as one more extra prayer you've done.

Sorry, I didn't hear.

Count that as an additional prayer that you've done. So if somebody says to you, 'I sat down for prayer for one hour, I was fully silent, no distraction, nothing,' they prayed only once. You went into silence for thirty seconds, the mind distracted you, and you returned to God. So that was one more act of love towards God. Then after another two minutes, again you notice you were caught up, so you return then again, and again. You see? So in that same one hour, you prayed fifty times. The other one prayed only once. Because you did—and this is from St. John of the Cross—he said that those who keep returning in spite of being distracted are doing many more acts of love towards God. You see, so we have to flip the mind script which says, 'Oh, but this is very bad, you're too distracted.' You see, the voice of distraction itself tries to make a diagnostic and say, 'This is very bad.' It itself causes the disease and then itself becomes the doctor and says, 'Oh, you're very diseased.' You see, so we have to break that scam somewhere.

So is it not true that if upon such mind temptation we keep returning to God, God must know that and value that? It's very... no beating yourself up. These kids, when Jyotika and all started coming, they also had the same habit. They would have constant self-diagnosis: 'This is what's wrong with me. This is what gets in the way. This is...' So then I invented this word called the 'checker guy.' The troubler, the oppressor itself poses as the one who is giving the diagnostic report. You see? So first, no, I'm in God's hands. I don't know what's happened. No checker guy stuff. You see, unless something is truly clear to you in your heart, don't rely on it from the mind.

This checker guy thing, it also happens when you know, want to apply some satsang pointer.

Yeah. Now what is this one who's saying that it also happens when...? Who is that one? I'm just introducing you—don't get stressed—I'm just introducing you to the nature of the checker guy. The checker guy will come in the form of a revelation only. You know, whose voice is that? Sounds like the best friend, no? You see, that is the check there.

Okay.

You'll take some time to get used to this because I can tell, just in our conversation, like the effect on your face, that you've taken that one to be a good friend for too long. And there is a sort of fear. You will see you will be much happier without it. You see, not that it's a short-term project, it's a lifelong project. All of us have it to some extent, but the severity of it will keep reducing. But you have to stay away from its own reports about itself. And you feel a bit like the ground from under your feet is gone because you feel like, 'Then what's happening to me?' What's happening to you?

I feel, how do I live my life?

Correct. So who's saying that? Checker guy. So then am I saying there's no way to answer that question? If I say, 'What's happening to you now?'

I don't know.

'I don't know' is a so very important step. You can report from the checker guy's 'how to be,' but I want to give you some reassurance that inner not-knowing how to be is a very important leap from knowing how to be in the false. Huh? Then nobody who's been in satsang long enough knows how to be. I don't know how to be.

I feel I just want a simple hack or something to know how to do this.

No, the thing is that we want complication. What I'm saying is be simple. Can there be anything simpler than not having to do anything at all? Can't be. But because our habit is to solve something, our habit is to work on something, is to progress... we probably did very well in school and all these kind of things, you see. So we are used to leading, winning, getting in a particular way. In satsang, all of those are the other way around. So all our conditioning has to be kept aside.

Can I share something? When I was in 10th standard, I had begun to take a lot of intense pressure, a lot of stress. And this is how I used to... I had seen the way the mind bullies at that time in a way that it used to repeat that, 'Oh, I have to do history, geography, math, science. I have to score more than 95.' And I couldn't. And even the same... but to like, analyze constantly...

Okay, so the mind will bully you even about our conversation. So I want you to remember only one thing mainly about our conversation: I am asking you to just relax. I'm not asking you... first you relax. There is no pressure. You don't have to win. There is no prize for getting enlightenment. There is no specialness to it. There's nothing. What is the prerequisite is first that you are relaxed. Yeah. Because also because you have this childhood conditioning, and many children who have come to me have had that achiever-type conditioning or just this schooling system and the parental conditioning that gets us into that mode of 'I have to succeed, I have to,' you see. So here it is the opposite. Here the more relaxed you are, the better. So you have to be just gently attentive. You don't have to force any understanding. You don't have to put yourself in any rat race. You are not going to win. The one who comes last is the winner. You can't use reverse psychology on it. You can't use any tactics. You just first have to relax. Because everything that will happen in the unrelaxed mode is not going to be productive for this. So what to do when you're not understanding anything in satsang? Relax. Exactly. I repeat the same thing ten thousand times. Don't worry. And if I die also, there are ten thousand recordings for you to watch. Nothing you will miss. Okay? First you have to relax. This is because of good news that I've given you.

Was that just a release or was there some message in the tears? I'm just trying to relieve all the pressure on you. You can't come first in this class because there is no first. Not because somebody else has taken that position; there is no first. There is no thing like that. There is no race. I'm in fact actively opposed to any of us as teachers who have marketed enlightenment as something to achieve. It's a lifelong project. You should be super relieved. What is your mind's best-case scenario, like utopia for it? Like the best thing?

Immediately I found that I'm pure awareness itself. Like that, the mind says that you'll be empty of the mind and will be full of God's love. Something will feel very nice.

And if you had no way that you had to feel or think or be, how would that be? That you did not have to be this way, that way. You did not have to be thinking this, doing this, nothing. How would that be?

It would be good.

Okay. You like that? Yeah. Soon you'll realize that however you're being is right and however he is being is wrong. That'll be sorted. That's the way of nature. Don't try to change anything. Then what else? At work, because they pay us money, they expect us to be a certain way. And most of us are used to that anyway. Yeah. Never mind. Do you feel like anybody knows really? We just pose. I don't know. Honestly, I will tell you. But I, in fact, I'll tell you something. You may not have heard it; some of these kids have heard it before. After I started sharing, for the first few satsangs, maybe for a couple of months, I felt it was very beautiful what was coming out. I was enjoying the words coming out of this mouth. Then after that, my mind started coming before every satsang and bullying me, saying, 'You've run out of things to say. There's nothing more you can say now.' You see? You don't know. So basically the same thing, no? Like, 'What are you going to do? You don't know how to be.' And then I realized it's true. I don't know what to say, but God is taking care of me. And God has made so many thousands of satsangs happen in so many years, then He's always taking care of it.

You see, so suppose that we were all able to live our lives this way. We didn't have to know. You see, our feet just show up where they have to show up and our mouth just speaks when something has to be spoken. Suppose this whole fallacy of having to put on these masks and conform to things in the world was just a fear from the mind and you didn't have to do any of that. That'd be so cool. Then try living like that for the next month. No rules on you. Nothing. Not even prayer. If it happens organically, let it happen. Don't have to conform to any idea of anything. Yes. But your face has a 'but' on it. Okay. Some things are beyond my pay grade also. In-laws are definitely beyond my pay grade. But I can bless you and pray for you. Advice? I don't know if I would say try it even when they're there and see. We will give you a place to stay if you get thrown out.

So you really have seen that when we leave ourselves away from this kind of mental oppression, you see, then things turn out quite all right. You can see that this is pure just mental oppression. You see, and it's not new. That is since we were children; we were told to only be a certain way, then we are good. 'If you be a certain way, then you're good.' So one of the beginning bricks in spirituality, or fertile ground for spirituality, is for you to break out of this mental condition, this mental prison. Let the world say whatever it wants. Let the mind say whatever it wants. You relax. Nothing is worth you picking up any concern or stress about for the next one month. Huh? Yes. No matter what, if in-laws are upset with you, in-laws are upset with you. You are not to get stressed. If the manager at work is not liking you, they're not liking you; not to get stressed. Nothing. Prayer is not happening? Not for you. There's a special rule now. Just relax. It must not stress you. You can't pray? That's your... no pressure about anything. Yeah.

Now, but are you going to put self-imposed pressure? Make a poster in front of you, right? 'Relax.' Nothing. Whatever happens, no judgment about yourself on anything at all. Not work, not marriage, not spirituality, nothing at all. Trust me on this. Just for a month, just relax. You're on a vacation from your life in spite of the outer body being in the life. Yes. No having to conform to anything. Not best employee, best wife, best spiritual disciple, nothing. If you do the worst, you'll be the best in my eyes. Yes. And from that just state of relaxation, then we'll move forward from there. Don't worry. Okay, let's see. Nothing that you hear in satsang should make you ever feel guilty, stressed out, or unworthy. You see, and there are many things that are said which your mind can use to make this kind of outcome happen. But remember that this is a fundamental principle: just throw away the pointer if it is making you feel guilty or unworthy or stressed out. There are more than enough pointers where pointers came from. Don't have to apply only that one. We're learning to just rest in God, basically. And we cannot rest in God in a stressed-out state. Let's quickly hear what Aniko is saying and then we go. Thank you.

There are many things that are said which your mind can use to make this kind of outcome happen. But remember that this is a fundamental principle. Just throw away the pointer if it is making you feel guilty or unworthy or stressed out. There are more than enough pointers where pointers came from. Don't have to apply only that one. We're learning to just rest in God basically. And we cannot rest in God in a stressed out state. Let's quickly hear what Aniko is saying and then we go.

Thank you, Ananta Ji. I put up my hand when he was talking about how it is important not to get stuck in the conceptual understanding. And then after, you said that there is when there is no any outcome or outpouring of our sadhana and then... so I don't know then how can I decide if I went beyond the conceptual knowing or without any evidence of feeling or sensation, or if I am stuck at the conceptual level?

Thank you. Thank you for your question. Firstly, thank you for your question. That question itself makes me feel very happy. Very happy, very good. Yeah, thank you. Very good.

Thank you, Ananta Ji.

Okay. So, what are you asking us?

Yes.

The answer, the answer was there in the question.

Oh, actually I can't see the answer.

The answer is there. No, that... this is faith. Faith is this: that there is no phenomenal evidence for my transformation, for my growth, for what those two hours or that one hour or that fifteen minutes of prayer of inquiry did. But there is a knowing beyond these modes of knowing which shows me the auspiciousness of this time spent in the stillness or the silence within. Now this is not evidence for the mind or to the world, to our families, but this is enough evidence for us. And to rely on this heart evidence is faith.

Ananta Ji, can you... I just can't fathom this answer now because I still sometimes... because sometimes just saying love is not working anymore. So I have some sentences that you said, or Guruji said, or I read from the Advaita, and then I am just repeating them and I'm waiting for...

The very point of today's satsang was to change the very definition of working. You say something is not working anymore. How would you know?

Yes, exactly. How, how, how could I know if...

No, but you know, you say it is not working anymore.

Yes.

On what basis do you say that?

Because there is no any effect of it. I mean, not any phenomenal effect. So I don't know if it's working or not. I cannot know. But you said the conceptual knowing is the most dangerous thing ever; it is better even if you don't know anything spiritually than conceptual knowing. So how can I know if it is stuck in my mind or if it has digested down if I have no any evidence?

Okay. Okay. So thank you again. Thank you for listening so carefully. So just now, no conceptual knowing right now.

Yeah.

Are you lost? Only if you think about it.

Yeah.

You see, so what keeps you unlost? That's it. So stay in that where you don't know and yet you are not lost.

There is so many things my mind want to say, really.

Yes. But we are remaining empty of conceptual knowing.

Yeah. Yeah.

So let it want to say; let it find someone else to say it to. It's okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, what do you know? Have you ever known the reason for why you're laughing? Huh? You've never known for so many years and yet you laugh, isn't it? Then not so bad in that. So we can live like that.

Yes.

Because you mostly, you start laughing when the most serious point is being made. So definitely none, none of us knows why you're laughing and yet it's so good. Because that is what this is; one of the ways in which when we let go of our conceptual mind then our beingness feels a release and it expresses itself. You see, it's a very natural mechanism. Just one moment of freedom from conceptual knowledge can make our being feel very free. Thank you so much. Love you. Love you. Love you.