Both Effort and Grace Are Needed - 10th April 2024

Now we have said not even a Vedantic standard—in the Vedantic standard all perceptions are unreal and therefore can come and go—but suppose you say that, 'I will set a standard where I can believe only that which is definitely true, undoubtable.' You see, 'I will believe only that.' That's fair enough, isn't it? That that which is undoubtable, I will believe that, you see. But in exploration, those before us and the one who is sharing and most of you who are listening have not found such a thought, is it, which is undoubtedly true, which actually carries the perfume of truth, which carries the fragrance of reality? So no such thought is to be found. And that is why processes like Byron Katie doing 'The Work,' where she's able to turn around every thought and say, 'But couldn't this be as true as your original thought which you were suffering from? The opposite could be as true,' you see. Which clearly indicates to us that really the content of even worldly perception cannot be grasped by thought, you see. Forget that which is beyond worldly perception; even worldly perception cannot be grasped by thought.

So we keep trying this example. So we say that, okay, let a thought accurately portray the truth of what this is right now. Can a thought convey the truth of what this is right now? See, no, it's only a perspective at best, you see. And because it is a perspective at best, each of you may have a different idea of what is happening right now, you see. In fact, most of you will have a different perspective in terms of what is happening right now. The second thing is what happens is that in believing or taking the narrative to be true, we're actually missing out on even the beauty of life, you see. Like how many of us are really with even the worldly perception right now? You see, we are missing most of that because we are quick, we are more interested in turning that into 'What does it mean for me?' and therefore 'What does it imply for my narrative?' And most are just grasping at these, trying to squeeze out value from every moment, you see, trying to find something meaningful for the non-existent me and trying to get a return on their life in that way, return on the investment of their life. But you're missing the light, you're missing the sound, you're missing most of this beauty of this movie because you're trying to focus too much on the subtitles instead. And no subtitle has really captured the entire frame of a movie, you see. If a subtitle could capture the entire frame, then you would not need all that expensive production and all of that; you could just read the subtitles. But it doesn't work, you see. In fact, the most admirable authors are those who can put it into words, but even in that, you see, if two of you discuss a book, a popular book by the best author also, you will differ in terms of what was happening moment to moment, what is the content of the scene moment to moment.

So, okay, but still it may have been an avoidance, you see. Still it may have been an avoidance, except that what is forgotten in the world is that we don't go from a minor intelligence into zero intelligence; we go from the minor intelligence to the only true intelligence, see. So it would have been a denial if, like an ostrich, you would put your head under the sand and say nothing is happening, you see, because then you're just in a blank, unconcerned about everything. But actually what happens is that you fall into your heart. You fall into your heart, which is the seat of the highest intelligence where everything is known. So it is the opposite of a denial, the opposite of a bypassing, because in your heart... you cannot be in your heart unless you've dealt with a lot of that which oppresses you. Unless you've allowed it to come and go, unless you've forgiven, unless you've loved, you see. If you are holding a lot of grievances, you cannot live in your heart. It's not possible because the minute you go there, your mind will keep telling you, 'Oh, but what about that one? How could this one have done it?' You see, even if it happened twenty years ago, it'll keep coming and bothering you.

So if you've not forgiven, which is to create an empty space for thoughts of that one, you see, to come and go through you—that's a beautiful way to look at forgiveness, you see. How do you know if you've truly forgiven someone? If thoughts or images of that one are allowed free space to run through you, then you have forgiven them, you see. Love can come later and hopefully it will come, but most important is even this simple test, you see. You think of someone, a thought comes or an image comes from the past, is it allowed to go through you without your anger, without your resentment, without your grasping, without your grievances? So that is the first step towards forgiveness. So unless we've done all this work, which is a lifetime of work, you see... why do people get irritated? Because it seems like, 'Oh yeah, yeah, done, you know, done all this.' The poor things, they are going to therapy, they are working on themselves so much, and they just feel like here there's a group of deniers. In all types of Vedanta satsangs, there's a group of deniers who are just escaping all of this, but actually they're just allowing it to fester. And there is this kind of spirituality also where you're just allowing it to fester; you're not creating the open space for all of this to be released. But nobody should ever get that idea that this is what we are doing here, and nobody should ever get the idea that this is like a coffee cup, instant coffee solution or something like that, because it is a lifetime of work. And the one who is sharing all of this also is very much a beginner in this work. So it's definitely not a denial, but it's important to clarify. If any of you are thinking or taking it that way, then please don't. The idea is to create an open space where thoughts, emotions, feelings, everything can flow through you instead of you buying into false notions, false ideas that everybody will admit, no, you see. If somebody says to you, 'But you should buy false notions,' you see, because that would be truly to meet it, then that you know is going too far and that is just sheer silliness.

So it's not, it's definitely not a denial, but it's important to clarify if any of you are thinking or taking it that way, then please don't. The idea is to create an open space where thoughts, emotions, feelings, everything can flow through you instead of you buying into false notions, false ideas that everybody will admit. No, you see, if somebody says to you, 'But you should buy false notions,' you see, because that would be truly to meet it, then that you know is going too far and that is just sheer silliness. You see, like somebody calls you—like all these cases have been happening and I made a rare exception of posting it on the group because I really saw a very sad story about somebody who got scammed in this way—but to apply to what we are saying, it's like saying that somebody calls you and tells you lies, but just because they've called you, you must believe them. Your mind is calling, saying, 'Hello, you know your neighbor really hates you. See how they behaved the other day.' It has nothing to do with reality, nothing to do with reality. But the idea that I must believe it just because a lot of the world is believing it, that has to be really looked at, you see.

So if a non-denial means that you believe every notion that the mind is offering independent of its truth value, then that doesn't make any sense. And what happens, the biggest thing that happens, is that living in this avidya, in this ignorance, which means that we have been living lies about who we are, we get involved in taking only Maya to be reality, only Maya to be reality, and the one who lives in our heart is forgotten. So the idea is to only deny that which is false, and not even deny by taking an opposite position or a contrary position, just letting go, just not grasping.

Father, can I ask something? Yeah, yeah. Can you hear me? I'm losing this room anyway. I need to speak up or do something. Everybody is... okay, maybe this change will help. Um, you were just talking about forgiveness and the difference between um, bypassing and not bypassing. And I wanted to ask you whether if we do have thoughts about, say, a family member or something that um, they do seem to take a lot of space, yeah, and is coming back to God enough forgiveness?

Yes, yes, it can be. It can be enough. But also, if there are persistent thoughts and you've held on to some grievances for a long time, then we can pray for them, you see. So for example, I know that you're probably using the Jesus prayer, so you could say, 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on [whoever the one that you're holding grievances with].' And you can decide whether to say 'a sinner' or not, because actually everybody is a sinner, everybody is living on their own terms. 'Have mercy on this one, bless them with the light of Atma, bless them with the light of spirit,' and your full prayer. So you can use the same prayer that you're praying for yourself for your family, your group, the satsang, or anybody individually as well. And that should help you forgive. It should help you send, truly send, love towards them.

I noticed that what happens many times is that it's become popular in the world to say, 'Sending my love and blessings,' 'All my love and blessings to you,' or 'Sending love,' you see, but you actually don't do it. We only say it. So we have to actually do that as well, you see. So I made a rule for myself, which is that if I say to someone I'm praying—so I'm praying for somebody's pet, for example—so I have a rule that if I'm saying, 'I'm praying for you' or 'Sending you my love and blessings,' I have to at least three times in my long prayer invoke that one's name and bring them in my prayer. Because otherwise it's just lip service. If you can't even invest that much, two minutes of time, on the actual praying for them, then it's not really praying for them. So it's very important to go beyond the lips of spirituality, which is just about the world, you see. So in the world, the idea is as long as that one thinks that I'm praying for them or sending my love and blessings, it should be enough. But that is your hypocrisy which you don't realize.

And these are beautiful reminders actually to bring us back to our heart because ultimately it's all one Consciousness. And if you're praying for yourself, if you're praying for everyone, if you're praying for a brother or sister, it's all in that one Consciousness. So keep praying for them till you find that they have this open passage through you. I hope all of you are getting a sense of that. When I first came across this in A Course in Miracles, or a teacher from the Course in Miracles actually first introduced me to this concept maybe 15 years ago, where I realized that that's such a beautiful way of looking at forgiveness. Because again, we may be dramatic in our forgiveness: 'Yes, yes, I forgive you,' you see. But when their thoughts or images are coming, then how are they met? Are they met in openness or they met in a space of attack or a space of resentment? Can we just allow it to go, you see? Can we allow it to go without getting into that, you see?

And all of these things actually, the more grievances we've held on to, the more conditioning we have about the past, the more ideas we have about humanity, all of this, you see, converts into when we say we have an inability to control anger, then we say we have an inability to remain peaceful. All of that is because all this is festering within us, you see. So what I'm saying is just the opposite of denial, the opposite of allowing it to fester. Allow everything to come, be like open and empty space. And if you be like that, like open and empty space, and if that is difficult, just pray, pray, pray. Within all the tools, so many tools at your disposal, and you can use your prayer for yourself to ask for His mercy as well as for your brother or sister to ask for His mercy for them. That is such a beautiful gift and it's also beautiful Karma Yoga actually. Yeah, yeah, just whenever, whenever you have angry thoughts about them or you this thing, then you replace that with a prayer to God. Then your mind also realizes that these buttons won't work so much. You don't have to take it on as a project and say, 'Okay, now for the next five days I will only pray for this one.' It doesn't have to be like that, unless it's completely clear in your heart that it has to be.

That is, Father, yes. So I've taken what you just said and I still want to recheck with you because it happened during this retreat with Guruji that was... it was very powerful and thoughts kept coming about this one and... I noticed that I noticed what I... it wasn't clear in that moment whether just to let them go was enough, just because this has been going on since childhood.

So yes, in that way then it's good to pray for them. If for some of you prayer may still sound a bit alien, then what you could do is you could bring those thoughts into your inquiry and say, 'Who is upset with whoever?' yeah, that we are upset with. So we can use that. And how do you know that you're done with your inquiry on that? When these thoughts, when they come, they become laughable to us, you see. They become very light and they are laughable, you see. Then we know that we have let go of the juice of the resentment against this one. But it is never about going with what the mind... with the mind's solutions, because the mind keeps providing solutions for the problems that are still there. But it's never about that. That's the attraction. It hardly provides, in my experience at least, it loves to waste time on resenting rather than providing solutions. It loves to waste time on how bad people are and how bad everyone is and how unfair the world is and you see how everyone has been to us or the particular one has been to us, you see. Solutions are very rare. But solutions which are mental usually don't work. We have to be heartfelt about them. If they come from God's light, from His presence, from His love, then they can be called solutions.

Yeah, I feel that that's what the mind is bringing. It brings so-called solutions that it's been bringing like the whole life about what I should do differently for this person to act differently, or should I talk to them or stuff like that. And yeah, I know that I'm just bringing this up because I know that when coming back to God the problem is not even there, but these suggestions keep coming and very strongly, and it's been so long.

Yeah, so your heart can also suggest. Your heart can also move you, you see. And those steps are very beautiful. Those steps are very beautiful because like I said, unless we've forgiven, if we still have grievances, we'll find it very tough to remain in God's light, in God's presence. So but your heart will guide you in terms of how to forgive. One simple—well, I shouldn't really say simple because it's quite subtle—but one way to look at it, and in your looking you will get... your looking will get finer and finer once you start looking in this way, which is to... which makes all decision making, all what to do, what not to do, simpler, is it? Which is that: how is it, what is it doing to the light in my heart? If you think about someone, what is it doing to the light in your heart? If you are talking to someone on the phone or in person, what is it doing to the light in your heart? If you're walking in a particular way, what is it doing to the light in your heart?

And you will notice that the more you pay attention to this, the more you focus on this aspect of it, this compass will become so strong. I spoke about it the other day also, that this compass will just become your forever guide. And then following the will of God will just be a question of: how deeply is the light apparent in my heart? How much love am I experiencing in His presence? Does it feel like He's here with me or not? So this becomes a very useful way to live. But we have to get used to living in the heart a little bit before we can use that as a tool, otherwise the mind will quickly come and fool us and, 'Ah, this is...' But in the discipleship of the Atma, it is all-encompassing. The Atma guides you moment to moment about everything. And if you're not hearing its guidance yet, then at least its presence will give you an indication whether the light is shining brighter, you see.

So let's take an example, and I may be asking for trouble, but hopefully in satsang after a few minutes you start to deepen in your heart, you see. And at the end of satsang you may come to a point where you feel that, 'Oh, the issues, the problems that you were dealing with at the beginning no longer seem that important, no longer seem that big,' you see. So your focus is shifted. So satsang can be a good indicator for you as to how that functions, you see. But you have to be in your own satsang. The whole point of this is to bring you to your own satsang, to the discipleship of the Holy Spirit within yourself. So you know that it'll become so apparent to you that even at the start of the conversation you will start to feel that something is... then you know you're going in the wrong direction. So just pause, wait for God to move you again, you see. Don't rush.

So the stillness we were talking about the other day, this is how it functions. It is a very alive space, but we have to be sensitive like a flower bud, you see. If we are very strong in our head, then that subtlety of this will be missed. We have to be soft, sensitive, open, not hard, you see. We can't be 'I know,' then you're missing all that nuance, you see. You're missing all the guidance that you're receiving every moment. God has not left anyone without guiding them, but because we become too strong-minded, too independent in our will, too much full of self-concern, we miss the subtle nuances which are available to us, the subtle nudges which are available to us moment to moment. So what to do in the world also, we are guided by the compass within.

Be soft, sensitive, open, not hard. You see, we can't be. I know, then you're missing all that nuance, you see? You're missing all the guidance that you're receiving every moment. God has not left anyone without guiding them, but because we become too strong-minded, too independent in our will, too much full of self-concern, we miss the subtle nuances which are available to us, the subtle nudges which are available to us moment to moment. So what to do? In the world also, we are guided by the compass within. So if you feel that the light is dimming out, then stop. Then return to your heart. If you feel like it is—if you're sensing, it's not really a feeling feeling, it's an inner sensing, no? It's an intuitive sensing. It's not a sensory sensing. Intuitive. It's an intuitive sense that you start to cultivate which will guide you whether this is good, whether this is auspicious in the eyes of the Atma within, or whether this is taking you away from God's light, see?

So till you can audibly hear the guidance, and even after that—you don't need to audibly hear—then this becomes a very beautiful way to just live. And it is the end of confusion. It is the end of conflict in decision making. It brings us so much patience and courage, you see, because it's not just that we are waiting in the high court waiting for the judge to rule. It's a way it reminds us of our childhood. It reminds us of when we were little children and we always felt held and loved, even though we were maybe away from our parents playing on the playground, but we always felt supported in some way. So in that same way, when we come to the refuge of God, then when we are waiting to be guided by the spirit within, then we feel like we are taken care of, we are loved within our heart. It's always easier to live that way than to live, you see, what is the pressure in our life? What is the pressure in our life? So much choices, decision making, you see. What should I do? Should I go left or should I go right? You see, should I go to a coffee shop or a restaurant? Everything is decision making, decision making. And bigger things: What should I do with my relationship? What should I do with my work? What is going to happen with my money?

So imagine that you just changed your dwelling to a place where you felt so supported. And be assured that even with that which the world may call the most tough decisions, even that which the world may call sacrifice, you feel like it's nothing because God is guiding you and you are being so loved in that process. So nothing becomes that seems that difficult or nothing seems that much of a sacrifice. I hope all of you were able to grasp this point because this is very important. And as you are cultivating yourself as a disciple of the Atma within, you see, you will realize that the ways of living a life of discipleship to the Holy Spirit are very different from the ways that we have determined for ourselves mentally. It's much more alive. It's much more moment to moment. It's much more sensitive, you see. Really become like the flowers who are changing the direction to face the sun. So when we are inward facing, we live like that. Although our actions may seem to be happening outwardly, but actually we are inward facing and that you are being strongly held, strongly supported, strongly reassured and loved. But what it needs is for us to leave our stubbornness, to leave our stubbornness and our strong positions that we made in our minds. Just become light about everything. Thank you.

You're very welcome. When the eyes are closed and the external world is not appearing in sight, it's relatively easy to, you know, get a sense that there is one being that's the intelligence in which the body sensations are coming and where there's nothing personal about the intelligence. The being itself is not personal but, you know, just light and, you know, the being, the divine presence—you can feel all that. And then at that point you can also—I mean, there's no sense of personhood, right? It's gone because, I mean, there's no Arin, there's no eyes closed, there's no satsang hall, there's no sense that these interactions are happening. But then you open your eyes and then the whole thing, you know, appears. And I was just wanted to put this to you.

Yes, thank you. So let's pause here for a moment. Does the appearance of these perceptions make anything into a thing? Or are there two processes? We must notice that two processes, because the innocent process of the waking state itself is not trouble. Yet it gives enough evidence for the second process for it to be taken to be true, because the mind will come in and identification will say that, 'Look at that, that proves that this is a satsang hall.' You see that in the eyes open there is a satsang hall, there is a world, there is an Arin apparently. But if you really look, keep your eyes open and tell me, where is the 'is'? Is it available in pure perception or is it a secondary process? And is in that secondary process the troublemaker? So yes, I completely agree with you that if the eyes are closed, then the mind doesn't even have that evidence to point at and say, 'This is what is happening,' you see? So it has to work really hard to sell some narrative to you. But even with eyes open, it'll become natural. What does anything mean? What is anything? Where is anything, no? Is there—there are perceptions, but where is the satsang hall? Where is the Master? Where is the disciple? Where is me? Where is the other? Does that happen in your perception?

Being is not affected by any perception. Being is not affected. And also just in our perceiving, if we don't even fathom what is being, we are just innocent like children. What is happening? You don't even have to call perceptions 'perception.' This is the pointer. We can say pure perception, then the mind really will struggle when you find a way to be open and empty during the waking state. Because in the waking state you will not—you can't—I mean, unless you're living in a cave, even then it is difficult, but you can't really spend the whole sixteen hours with eyes closed. So some perceptions will get through. And if you were to do that, then what will happen is that in that eyes closed also you'll start daydreaming, you will start fantasizing; some processes of hallucination, illusion will start. So the idea is not to be empty of perception. The idea is to be empty of the secondary process, which is to judge, to interpret, to label.

Okay, so just remain in pure perception. What do you mean by exist? The word 'exist' or the notion of 'exist' is where? Father, the reason why I'm asking this is there is—in quantum physics they have—so I had seen a video of a double-slit experiment. Yeah, so it says that the world doesn't exist unless there's an observer. I just want you to, you know, just—

That's a different level altogether. So would Consciousness waste itself on something which it itself is not seeing? Like why? I mean, there's no point. If Consciousness is not going to witness, then how will it—like what is a better way to put this? Like it is said that you perceive only that which you conceive, you see? But actually there is no difference between perception and conception in the sense that many times we hear that, and it's true as far as we are being linear about it. We only perceive that which we conceive as Consciousness, of course, not personally. But then if you really take it to its deeper insight, there is no difference between to conceive of something or to perceive something. It is the same thing. Why would there be conception without perception? That would mean less than Supreme Intelligence is doing this. It has conceived of things and it never perceives them.

I had to wake everybody up with something, you know? This is so you can perceive. Let's start with the simple thing. You say you only perceive that which you conceive. I don't even know what that means, okay? So we can explore that. But for those of you who explored that, we'll say, okay, then what we're saying is that in the linearity of time, it's a matter of time before that which you conceive will be perceived, isn't it? But for Consciousness, what is time? Nothing. It's everywhere all at once. Consciousness is everywhere all at once. It's a movie also like that, 'Everything Everywhere All at Once.' Very good. So for Consciousness, just put yourself in the perspective of Consciousness. You're creating some universes and things like that which you're never going to observe. Why will you do that? Your process of creating them is the process of perceiving them also. That's what I'm saying. It's impossible for you to conceive of something without perceiving it or perceive something without conceiving it. So it's all about ultimately it's all about the observer or the observing, the pure perception.

I think it to be separate, something other. Imagine—let me say that—what would—can you show us your hand and say if you didn't put a label, what would it mean? Anything? And then I write back with that and there's no distance or difference either. It's just like one.

Yeah, but hold on to your experience of your perception rather than your understanding of it.

Yeah, conceiving is gone then, huh? Conceiving is gone. Perceiving is gone. I don't know what is. Is that the project? That we recognize that, you know, while we had earlier taken ourselves to be a person in a body, that if you stay long enough in Consciousness and you understand that the body is a bunch of sensations in a higher universal being, then in that recognition, then the being itself—because that's the intelligence—stops producing all the thought activity which we took to be real as individuals in the world. Is it that it kind of automatically says, 'Okay, you know, now I have over time understood that there was the falsehood of looking at things from the perspective of an object.' See the unity, it's very blissful. So let me just, you know, why go back? You just kind of wean yourself off like a bad habit, an old habit, bad habit, say, 'Okay, I'm done.' Is that the project? That the dreaming stops? Or is the project that, you know, we just kind of go back and take ourselves to be the person and ask for guidance and then try to improve the quality of the dream? I just wanted to get some clarity on this, please. What is the project?

What is the project? Okay, so this metaphor is coming. I saw a video the other day which may be useful in this context, although the speaker was speaking in one of the contexts. You see, which way does the tree grow? It goes towards the sun. Beautiful video. So we realized—the speaker said, I haven't verified this and maybe I don't have a way to verify it also, but the speaker said that the tree grows as much under the ground as much as it does above the ground. So what is the project? The project is to look at it either way. So if you say—and okay, I'll finish the metaphor with which this original story was shared for us. They said that it may seem like we're just going into open space and such a beautiful life of a tree, but imagine from the time that it was a seed, it faced consistent and constant resistance from all around it to grow out of the seed, to build roots. The ground is so heavy. The poor seed constantly faces resistance. But it provides it the nutrition to be able to go upwards.

So if we look at the project in terms of the two wings as Bhagavan described, let's say that to grow in our insight is the growing upwards on the tree, and to grow in our servitude and our devotion is to grow downwards in the roots. The more we'll be rooted and not be egoic, you see, and more in servitude and following God's will, the more insight also we'll be blessed with, you see? So the project is both ways. We have to grow in both ways: the growing upwards and getting more nutrition from the sun and whatever we call it, chlorophyll, I don't know.

The two wings, as Bhagavan described. So let's say that to grow in our insight is the growing upwards on the tree, and to grow in our servitude and our devotion is to grow downwards in the roots. The more we'll be rooted and not be egoic, and more in servitude and following God's will, the more insight also we'll be blessed with, you see. So the project is both ways. We have to grow in both ways: the growing upwards and getting more nutrition from the sun and whatever we call it—chlorophyll, I don't know how, I don't remember how it works now—but that will provide us with strength to grow our roots with strength, to grow our roots with more roots. So nutrition comes from the ground and the water and the earth, and you get more nutrition to grow upwards as well. So although I don't say that anything is impossible, you see, but I want to say that to do spirituality without devotion to Spirit is, in my mind, next to impossible. So the roots have to deepen. Our ego has to be more and more grounded and go lower and lower—and maybe I'm stretching the metaphor too far—but that will give us the ability to grow towards higher and higher insight, you see. Otherwise, what happens?

They feed each other exactly. She said, 'How can you love God without meeting him?' or something like that. And then you said, 'Make it about God.' Something you said like once it's like the love deepens in the insight and then it's like it's a virtuous circle; it feeds itself.

You see, you go to the heart. Initially you may have no trust about it, but you find His presence, you feel comforted, you feel like, 'Wow, it's possible to live in this world, continue to live in this world, but be so deeply held in our heart.' So that develops our trust and we go deeper, go deeper within. So the lesser we have pride and trust in our own strength driving us, the clearer our eyes will be even to see clearly what true insight is. Otherwise, the need to grasp and to pick up and to own, you see, is so much that it colors our vision. We are not really able to see straight. So the bhaktas should not be averse to Gyan, and the gyani should not be averse to Bhakti. Some of it is natural, but as long as you're trying to be as open as you can be, it'll be fine. But if you made a position that 'I will do spirituality without Spirit,' then that is going to make your own life difficult.

You know what Jesus called this? Holy Spirit. And when he was about to leave, he was about to be crucified, he said that it's good that I go, it's important that I go, because without me the Comforter will not come to you. While I'm here, the Comforter will not come to you. So such a beautiful way of referring to that. It is the Satguru within, but he is also the true place of refuge, of comfort within ourselves. So what was happening is that he obviously knew, and the disciples also started to get some sense that something is coming because there was too much upheaval starting to happen. So when he sensed that that is happening in the satsang, he said that it's good in a way, it's important in a way that I go, because then I have asked my Father to send the Comforter to you, you see. And once I go, then he will come and he will guide you, you see.

So what happened is that in spite of the hundreds of miracles that were done by Jesus in his life, you see, and in spite of the resurrection, in spite of all of this, you see—which reminds us of our lives actually, we've seen so much beauty and God's grace—but in spite of that, even the apostles had some seeds of doubt. But when they came to the presence of the Holy Spirit, then that is when the doubt really left them. So this existence without the refuge of the Atma within is just a lot of hard work. It's a lot of strife, actually. But we don't need to be in that strife. Whatever we need to know, He will tell us, He will teach us. Whatever rest we need, whatever love we need, whatever our heart requires, He/She will provide.

Father, I seem to be worrying more about not doing the ads than actually doing the ads.

Yeah, so this is that whole classical 'don't look at the moon' thing. We spoke about that. So once the advice is given to you, 'don't look at the moon,' then you're worrying more about not looking at the moon than actually you were spending time looking at the moon, you see. So in the same way, the mind plays with you this way. So what to do? Start your chanting. What stops you from chanting? Nothing is stopping you from chanting except here. You should be chanting incessantly. Yeah, the more something or the other comes up stopping you from... so the mind is saying, 'You know, I have to do this, let me finish this,' and then it is doing a double punch by saying, 'Oh, but I haven't chanted enough, but look, I'm not chanting,' and that is driving itself up the wall. Yeah, but you leave what is driving itself. You chant. And this the ending desire, actually just use it as a reminder. So instead of diagnosing what is happening to you, use that time to say, 'Ram, Ram, Krishna, Krishna,' whatever you're doing.

Yeah, there's a lot of diagnosis happening. That's the checker guy, the classical nemesis in satsang. He comes and checks, 'You're not doing a good job, and you're not doing a good job because this is what's happening.' Every time you want to do a good job, then your mind is coming and telling you you should be doing a better job, you see. The mind itself is playing or analyzing behavior: 'You should be being nicer, sweeter, you're looking grim, you're getting irritated.' It's a constant evaluation inwardly. 'Keep facing God,' mind says, but inwardly, 'Ananta said you must be facing God, you're not doing it, so do it.' See, the point is in the moment, in any form or manner, inwardly keep facing God. Yeah, hopefully in every form of manner, but if every is not possible, then at least any is a good start.

What is every form of manner? Who wants to share it with some of you? What would be every form of manner? All the layers of our existence. So it may not be possible for the body to be constantly in a temple, you see, but it is possible to make our life itself the temple. So it doesn't have to go anywhere. Then what other layers do we have? Okay, let me put it the same way that I put it across to some of you. So suppose that your lips are going 'Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram,' but your memory is reminding you of that handsome man you met the other day. So your lips are 'Ram,' but you're just like, you know... so are you praying? But if this was your very beginning in spirituality, then at least you made a start. At least you made a start and started to say 'Ram, Ram,' and that will seep in, you see.

So based on how much time we spend, how much of our life we want to devote to God, what is the level of surrender we want to do, what is good prayer or bad prayer depends on that. On somebody who is the first day in satsang, if they just started to do lip service, mechanical 'Ram, Ram' also, it's good. But for those of you who really want to spend your life in His presence, you must use everything at your disposal. So you have your body, so you can use your lips, you can use your voice. And you have your thoughts, which you can invoke in your attention the name of God if you can't be empty. So if your lips are chanting 'Ram' but everything else is empty—your mind is empty, your intellect is not judging, your memory is not full of some images of the past—then are you praying? Still praying.

So if your lips are chanting 'Ram, Ram' and your mind is also along with that 'Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram,' is it then are you praying? And everything else is empty, you're still praying. If your lips are chanting, your mind is also going along with the chanting, the intellect is not judging, the memory is only coming of Him and His grace in your life, then are you praying? If none of that is happening, but within your heart you're feeling like the chant is going on by itself, then you're praying. In fact, that will not happen if a lot of other stuff is going on. It could be that your lips are chanting, your mind is chanting, your memory is of His love and grace, and your heart is so deeply chanting His name—that's possible.

So what if all these layers are empty? These all these layers are empty and you are feeling like you're standing in His light, you're either merged with Him fully or you're in His holy presence. Is that praying? That is the prayer of silence, which is the same. What does it remind you of? Being open and empty. Being open and empty will bring you to that point, or it will make you mental in the idea of being open and empty. So when there is devotion to Him, it is prayer. When there is devotion to the world, it is not prayer. Can you put it simply like that?

Lost me somewhere.

I'm just introducing you to the depth which is possible in prayer, the intensity which is possible in prayer, you see. But also the just the lip service stuff which I'm raging against a bit and say, why can't we give it our maximum instead of our minimum? So if you're doing the mala and your lips are going 'Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram,' but in your mind you're just attacking a brother or sister, you see, are you praying? Remember, all of this is okay for a beginner, but it also depends on you with what you consider yourself in terms of how much of yourself you want to surrender to God.

And there is no gratitude. Yeah, you're doing your mala and you sense that there is no gratitude.

There is no gratitude, but is there resentment? No, not resentment. That's fine, you see, because you're still praying. If you're empty in the other layers, but at least that's what we started with, that with at least one aspect of my being I'm devoting to God. Maybe it is not seeped into all aspects, you see, or maybe a silent seeping is happening and we can't really... like these things happen intuitively, they don't happen by force. So as long as our devotion is to God and not to the world, is to God and not to Maya, then we are praying. And if we are deeply grateful and humble but not saying any words, is that... if you're not saying other things in words, if not involved in other things, then it is. If you're just humble and grateful and nothing is moving in your mind, intellect, memory, lips, it's prayer.

You also had a question come. But sometimes, like just naturally, some feels like something is just melting. It just that moment automatically comes and it's like just then there's nothing. And after a while suddenly then there is everything, and that also happens. It's not like something is thought about, but it's like automatically it happens like a major contrast. And sometimes when the thought comes that is... but this is something like something...

Okay, so we have to look at that very closely because His presence comes by grace. Turn it off for a bit. His presence comes by grace, isn't it? You're saying that just like that, I was just sitting and I could feel this fully empty or fully deeply in love with the presence within, you see. It just happened, I didn't even do anything. So that is grace. Then you say that the opposite, which is 'I'm fully involved with the world,' which is the meaning of everything, 'Yes, I'm fully involved with Maya,' that also happens like that? No, it doesn't. Is it? No, it doesn't, because that never can happen without your permission. You leave Him. He does not come and go. Can anyone say that He came and then He went away? All of us have had experience of His presence, whether it may seem like a glimpse or it may seem very steady. Can anyone say that you caught a glimpse and then He left? 'I was empty only, I was not interested in the world, I did not get interested in Maya, but He only left.' Doesn't it? So it doesn't happen in the reverse.

And but the thoughts just come.

So the fact is that all of us are foolish, including this foolish one, very foolish, where we will leave. See, I also leave many times a day because something happens, something calls, something seems important. So I'm being foolish at that time, leaving God's hand, thinking something in the world is important, you see. But then when we do that foolishness, the wisdom after...

In the world, I did not get interested in Maya, but He only left, doesn't it? So it doesn't happen in the reverse. And but the... I just come... so the fact is that all of us are foolish, including this foolish one, very foolish. Where we will leave, see, I also leave many times a day because something happens, something calls, something seems important. So I'm being foolish at that time, leaving God's hand, thinking something in the world is important, you see? But then when we do that foolishness, the wisdom after that foolishness is to return home as fast as possible, you see? So the prodigal son, in a way, is a story of a long-term story, but it's also a moment-to-moment story. We realize that we've been wasteful and we have just been, you know, worried about self-interest and self-concern. Then when we notice that, just we return to His presence.

Is it now? Does that mean that when we want to return, He'll make Himself available? Ah, you came back, yes? No, that is all up to Him, His grace. But this much I tell you, that once He's there, He never leaves. So maybe you miss that part of satsang also where I was saying that use this subtlety in your heart to guide you moment to moment, to guide you moment to moment. If you find the light is deepening, His presence is deepening, the fire is burning brighter, then proceed. If you find that it is dimming, it is contracting, then just pause and return. Let the world think you're stupid; it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it's all about Him. This world is just an illusion of Maya.

That's why we were saying the other day, you asked whether it is important to confirm that the world is unreal so that we can be with God. It's very important, because if it seems more and more real, it'll keep pulling us out into the foolishness of leaving Him and being involved in the Maya. Tell me one thing: why leave His presence? Is there ever a good reason? Can anything in Maya... if the entirety of Maya is burning down, is that still true compared to His presence in our heart? So that is why I call it foolishness, is it not? Because it's only our pride, it is only our false thinking, our avidya, which makes us... which we follow, and then we leave His light to go back to building a false identity and all of those things.

So what to do when we are in that way and our heart and its subtlety is telling us that the light is just dimming? Then we just quickly return. Can we live like that? Now the mind will make this sound very oppressive, see? It will make this sound very oppressive. Actually, the oppressor itself makes freedom sound oppressive. But the more you have faith and you trust me and you follow this way, you will see that actually it is the most free, the most beautiful way to live. Because what the mind says is freedom is living in the oppression. The mental prison is full of anxiety. She talked about how every child is going to therapy, and I said how it's a good thing if they are afflicted in these ways, but that is a prison made by our mind. Most of us are living in that way.

So to have freedom from that and to live in a beautiful loving relationship with God in our heart is the most beautiful outcome of this life. So don't mistake your mind's independence to be your independence. You know what most people say, you know, what is that idea of freedom? I spoke about this before, no? You ask people on the road, 'What do you think about freedom?' That is their idea of freedom, no? But they don't realize it's the mind's freedom, you see? And people have songs like 'Free Your Mind' and things like that. The mind itself is saying, 'Okay, free me more and more so I can oppress you more and more.' Yeah, what happens to the freest mind?

You see how deeply the mental oppression has gone that we are advocates—our life has become an advocate for our mind to be completely free. And if we say, 'No, be in servitude to God,' which is saying that you're being offered a place in God's heart, that sounds like oppression. But what has the freedom of mind given us? More and more addictions, more bad habits, more anger, more anxiety, more pressure, more ambition, more stress, always living in a discontented way, always chasing more and more tomorrow. What have you gotten with this freedom of mind? Is this beast ever satisfied with what it eats? Never. It's never full.

So our whole life goes, and I've seen examples at close range now, you see, where they spend their entire life like this. And because it becomes so deeply ingrained the older we get, then after a while it just seems like it's too difficult to free myself from these clutches. So true freedom is to be able to live from the heart. There's another trick: the mind confuses us about what our heart is. So even the ones who say, 'I want to be all heart, I am rebellious, I am free,' you see, are maybe even worse off because I don't know what they are up to. You see, we all have friends like this, like, 'I'm a rebel, I'm just this.' So what they're calling freedom and living from the heart is just the silliest aspect of their mind mostly. I'm sorry if I'm generalizing too much, but mostly it is like that.

Because the true heart, the mind makes every attempt to hide that. So it says, 'Just follow your emotions, just follow your emotions.' And your emotions are all topsy-turvy. One day you wake up with so much enthusiasm and your mind is saying, 'I'm going to walk to Ladakh' or something, you know, 'I'm a rebel, I'm going to do all this, I follow my heart.' So you hire a bike or something like that, and on the way to Ladakh, what if your emotion changes tomorrow halfway through? And you're like, got acclimatized to all the having to breathe there and all of that, and then your so-called heart, which is just your absence of enthusiasm now, you see, and your mind oppressing you saying, 'What are you doing?' you see? So you're then saying, 'No, no, I'm going to go back, I'll go to Nepal' or something like that. I don't know where these examples... I've never been to Ladakh or Nepal.

So neither of it is freedom, you see? But we are chasing freedom in these ways, grasping at everything except God. 'How can I be free but keep God out of it?' you see? One friend at work, and we don't talk spirituality at work, so she said, 'For God's sake, do they have to bring God into everything?' So I said, 'For God's sake.' So we know how it sounds in the world, because God has been used as a tool for oppression for so long and for power for so long that we are really missing such a beautiful way to live, the only true way to live.

So it doesn't... it doesn't go. Grace comes. Grace doesn't say bye-bye; we say bye-bye. This is the... because the mind gets threatened, you see? Every moment you spend with the Atma within, it's cleaning you up. It's cleaning up your conditions, it's cleaning up your addictions, your bad habits, your whatever is keeping you away from God. It's cleaning you up from your anger, from your desire, from your greed, you see? It's making you free from the inside. It's opening you up. So the mind gets very threatened with that. So then it says, 'No, no, but you had a meeting, you have to call that one, you have to call this one.' And then when we are out of it, we don't even bother to call. Sitting trying to be empty, 'Oh, but what about that meeting you had? What about that email you had to send?' and then taking you. You're like, 'Okay, we'll do it later.' These are all the functioning of the mind. And from whose reports am I sharing? All my reports, see? I've noticed all these things along this journey for so many years now. This is how it traps us. Okay, let's give the mic to him, he's been asking.

Hello. Still not on? Okay. See, I started meditating from a couple of days back, and so I took the instruction from you, 'I will be here.' See, I started observing the mind, like just be to... and it was really good, and really good. And after coming out of that, it's something like the mind comes back, have some couple of thoughts which are very tricky. And it comes where I go, and how do I... I'm not understanding the part of it. How do I come out of that?

So you're trying to just be open and empty like he said the other day, and these thoughts are being allowed to come and go. And for some time, you see, it feels very nice, but then some of these thoughts come which are so sticky that you can't let them go. Or it may be good or a bad, so both are something like... yes.

So I'm every time I think I'm fighting on that. Whenever I do the work or whatever it is, just right there in front of me.

Yes. Are you allowing it to just come and go, or are you trying to make it not come?

I'm just... just wanted to stop them. I'm not stopping them.

So what you're going to do is you're going to just allow every thought to come and go. Also every image—we spoke about like the scary images. Every thought must be allowed to come and go, every image must be allowed to come and go. Don't try to stop anything at all.

So I'm talking about something gets stuck there.

What gets stuck?

Some thoughts get stuck.

So by stuck, do you mean repetitive?

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Is it because no thought really gets stuck, see? A thought doesn't come and stay. A thought comes and repeats. So when... because it repeats, then it seems like, 'Oh, it is getting stuck over there.' So don't worry, let it repeat, okay? If it is repeating, it doesn't mean what you're doing is not working. So just let it come and go. It can come a hundred times, don't worry. Don't pick up your boxing gloves for anything.

I think I'm doing that.

Don't fight them. Don't say, 'You have to stop now,' okay? You see, also what happens is because we experience some peace, then we want to retain that. So don't try to retain that also. Whatever states come, let them come. You don't know what all has to be released from within you. So don't clamor for just a particular state. See, many times right at the beginning of... in this stage, again, you're starting almost from the beginning, so you must allow all to get released from within you. You see, in the last few months, a lot may have been picked up. So just for a few more days, just allow everything to come. Just become like space. Don't care about which furniture is coming in, which furniture is going out. Like you're the space in this room. You don't like the color of the couch? You're not bothered, you're the space. You don't like who's coming and sitting? You're not bothered, you're the space, okay?

One more question. I just speak without it, it's okay. Couple of days I saw Mooji Baba's video. There he says that, 'Think of thought, is it a person?' How it...

So before you can contemplate these inquiries, you need to come to some peace first. And the peace will come just by allowing these things to come and go for at least some time, that you come to some settling. Otherwise, the mind itself will say, 'Yeah, yeah, yeah, what about that? Who is the observer? Can the perceiver be perceived?' All that will come. So there are times in which these are very auspicious contemplations because they make you empty, but there are also times where the mind is again trying to activate itself by thinking about these answers. Mind is... so don't think about any notion about anything, okay? For some time, just allow everything to go, okay? Everything to come and go, all right?

And only that way you're observing, isn't it? If you take on the position of being an observer, you see, then you are no longer just observing; you have taken the identity of an observer, isn't it? So don't get trapped in the observer identity. Yes, empty everything as it comes. You're not to grab at anything, you're not to push anything away. Then once you're a bit settled, then when the contemplation will be given to you, you'll be able to do them intuitively from the heart. Because if any of these contemplations become just mental exercises, then they will be counterproductive. It is natural for us to look for quick-working medicine. It's natural. We start taking a medicine, we feel like everything should go today only, all the symptoms should go, everything should become fine, you see. But the...

You're not to push anything away. Then once you're a bit settled, then when the contemplation will be given to you, you'll be able to do them intuitively from the heart. Because if any of these contemplations become just mental exercises, then they will be counterproductive. Thank you. It is natural for us to look for quick-working medicine. It is natural. We start taking a medicine, we feel like everything should go today only, all the symptoms should go, everything should become fine, you see. But the medicine takes some time. It takes some time to work. You are asking something, no?

Do this exercise. Most of the times it is more mechanical, because you said that you have to think about God also, right? So, I mean, from my perspective, this exercise itself is more about me, you know? Like, okay, so that itself is a clue. So when you're just being open and empty, it is about nobody, isn't it? Yes. The diagnosis post-exercise is about, 'Okay, now what is happening to me because of that?' Yes. No, the last few satsangs you very clearly called out that you have to have love for God. Yeah. So I do not see love for God when I'm doing this, honestly. So what I mean is that the 'cheater guy' is coming and bothering me. Because this activity, when you're doing open and empty, allowing everything to come—so now for how long? Like, constantly? Not constantly, like it's coming and going and I'm aware where some thoughts are coming.

Am I getting... no. Are you using it as an acid, or are you using it as a Chyawanprash, or are you using it as breath? How are you using it?

Breath. Okay, constant. So you're trying to breathe constantly in that open and empty, yeah. Okay, but there is no memory or a thought about God at that moment. Yeah, I do not call the Lord's name, any name or any form. So last few satsangs you have clearly said that this has to step up to God, right? What is your heart guidance in terms of the... when you try to be open and empty, you feel like how long are you able to remain like that?

Most of the time, Father, I've been practicing it when I'm working or when I'm doing an activity like rush, rush, rush. I try to take a step back and just see, you know, when I'm driving. Okay, so let's start like this. So how do you start your day?

I get up and I meditate for one hour.

You meditate for one hour. Beautiful. Then when you finish the formal process of meditation, you're still trying to be empty, isn't it? You're trying to be meditative even though activity is happening.

Yes. How quickly is it that you find yourself in a sort of rush space or mentally involved state or like, suddenly something comes from outside? Yeah, but usually after how much time after your meditation?

Two to three hours.

Two, three hours. So for the first four hours of your day, you've been empty most of the times. It's very slow, you know, because I don't rush because I work from home.

But you've been empty?

Yes. I wouldn't call it zero thoughts. Things are coming, but you're not attaching. Yes, I'm just witnessing it, you know. I know that this example, some random thought comes in and I know, 'Oh my God, I'm still angry on this person,' you know? I'm aware of it, but it's going away, right? And after sometime the repetitive thoughts come about the same person; after sometime it's gone. Like a movie, it's gone.

So after you're empty for three, four hours, is your attention naturally guided to somewhere within yourself? I'm sorry, after you've been naturally empty for three, four hours for so many weeks, is your attention naturally getting guided to somewhere within yourself, or what's that?

I would say like, my actions are changing, you know? I feel like doing some... like for example, the room is untidy, which I would never clean, but probably I just feel like tidying it up, you know? So it is not... still there's no thought about God, you know? But the thoughts are coming and I'm just witnessing, you know? But it's slowing down.

And you've been doing this for many weeks?

Yes. I'm able to go about and do my regular life.

And what about God's presence? Doesn't it become apparent? For example, in this space, somebody calls me up and says, you know, they want to talk about a third person, right? Like some gossip or something, right? For me to engage in that activity, it takes... and like, I just... it seems alien.

You don't want... like it's very... it takes enormous energy.

Yes, like you have to... you say and you feel tired after doing it. You don't want... it's tired and it's tired.

So I like... so no, but what about God's presence?

So this is where I'm coming. A conscious awareness of God, right, is not there. Still it's not there. But this goes on and suddenly sometimes it just comes, a thought comes and of course you fall for it. And sometimes you might start that thing during the day and then unless and until you consciously feel that... a lot of it's heavy energy, you know, to do something, you know? Then you say like, 'It's gone,' and then you sit down quietly for some time, you know, go back to some quick five, ten minutes and then, you know, again the witnessing starts. So this practice, because I've been doing it for quite some time, I would... is that God? Right now, now what is the definition of God? I've been contemplating like... I'm not able to see any form or I'm not able to call out a name because maybe I believe that it is... it's the Nirguna... I mean, I don't know. I feel like God is, you know, without form. So somewhere I'm not...

What's the process of contemplation you're doing?

Contemplation in the sense, Father, like most of the times when this space... so when you say that I've been contemplating the nature of God, not the God but... good, it's very good to do. In what... what do you do, Father? In this, like random questions arise. I do not know what question comes up from me. It can be like... like last few days I met my own... my friend passed away. After that, this thought of life itself is like, yeah, like every day is a grace of God, right? So all my prayer is, 'I want to be with you,' and only two prayers I have: just attend satsang and meditate. That's all. If these two are done, I'm... that day is done for me. Like, why rest of the things happen is... I don't like... really, it is only for this. But yet there is no God, you know? So I technically...

So both these questions were very good, where you said, 'What is the nature of God? Is it formless? Is it like a form?' And the second is, 'What is the purpose of life?' because you had a close encounter with death. So that question came naturally. And then when the question arises and we are contemplating, is it an intellectual contemplation or an intuitive one?

It is definitely intuitive, but not every time I receive answers. Rather, it's only questions are only coming up, right? I just be there in that time. I'm still working, I'm doing something most of the times. I mean, for example, last one month I'm on a break. I've not watched one movie also. I don't feel like TV, watching anything online, and I feel like that... throwing the phone away, you know? I don't know, honestly. It's like if I have to do something, it's like it's taking enormous energy, as if I have to bend down and pick up some heavy... heavy lifting, you know? Like a gym thing. The same energy feeling I feel like if I have to talk about some other person, you know? Like the attention wants to be here only, here with me, and just come and go, come and go. But it's not that the mind is sweet. It is heavy attack, you know? I know that it doesn't let me sleep. It is doing all the tantrums and...

And it's like your morning starts off well usually, and then by what time does the mind become strong?

Most of the times my... now the nights are very disturbing. I don't get sleep because I...

So when does... when is that switch happening? Because it sounds beautiful how you start.

Father, the switch happens... and I'm very happy to have these conversations because it's very true to life, you know? We're just not talking big, big things, but actually being able to find out answers to how can we spend more time not caught up in Maya but in God's presence. So this is very good. So you say you start well, your meditation is fine, and the next two, three hours seem light and no problem. Then how does it... then... because now I'm in a space of a break, I do not have a routine and nothing to hold on to. So though there's no fear, there's only one day there's a very strong fear I could feel. Rest of the times, absolutely, I'm just going by. But it is constantly trying. It is not like it is not trying. I mean, I cannot say when, because it is always trying. The bowling... it's an automated machine where the bowling is always put, you know? It's always there. It's just that I am like taking a step back because like... if I... how do I say? If I talk to somebody only I can get triggered, or I'm on digital format only I can... now I choose to read a book in the evenings. I don't feel like touching the phone with the Kindle, you know? Like it's... yeah, taking me somewhere.

When is the mind grabbing you?

When maybe the present situation... I mean, the mind is grabbing me because now I'm trying for some other new format of process of life. Okay, it's like, 'Now you will not attend satsang, you might not attend satsang, you might not be able to meditate,' because those are the two main things I've said, right?

What is this drastic thing you're trying to do? What is the mind scaring you with?

Like, 'I might not... I will...' like, 'I will take you away from Father,' you know? Yeah, yeah, the strong... that is where I'm like...

So why afternoon time this kind of getting fear already starts? It's a fear. Don't worry. Don't fear the fear. One of the first things I told you, because what happens in your case is that if a little fear starts to come, then you start getting very worried about the fear coming because of your past experience. Nothing.

So this is my highest fear, Father, honestly. Highest fear right now. It's not my job situation, honestly, technically, because I was witnessing that and sometime, most of the times, even that is going away. But this fear, right, somehow it just telling me that, 'I still have power over you where I can...' you know, 'These are the two main charging points for you, I will cut this and let me see how you...' So then at some point in the day, that which was light early in the day then starts to seem more real, more heavy? Is it like that?

Maybe after evening. Although you're trying, your intention is to still be open and empty.

Yeah, or somewhere in the day you leave that and...

Mostly, Father, during the day also I'm fine because, you know, like I'm moving around, right? When the end evening starts, right, that's when the... because that's when I'm not getting sleep. So the mind is like... thoughts are little... I wouldn't say it's one thought. I don't know. I'm like... it's a collective heavy. It's because I've been going through this fear for a very long time, you know, because I've been meditating before also. So this thought that God will abandon you, you know? That is never going to happen. It's other way around, right? But still that... that's one of my biggest fears, that there will be a day when you call God and He's not going to respond to your call and, you know, so like it's a weird kind of a fear. Fear... I can't express what is my... but this is my biggest fear right now.

So you have to observe the transition a bit more closely in the sense that because the start of your day sounds beautiful and by the end it starts to make inroads in that way, the mind. So why haven't you... you tried the ideas? Mostly I spend the day in the meditation, Father, in the mornings. I'm not... so what you should do is that even if you don't do it formally, properly, you can use... when you feel like your mind is starting to attack you, okay, then remember God and take His name. And whichever way—it doesn't have to be in the prayers that have been given the eight years—in whichever way, why wouldn't you?

Yes, definitely. Yeah.

Use everything at your disposal to remain with God. You're not... I don't know if you...

What you should do is that even if you don't do it formally properly, you can use when you feel like your mind is starting to attack you, okay? Then remember God and take His name. And whichever way—it doesn't have to be in the prayers that have been given the eight years—in whichever way. Why wouldn't you? Yes, definitely. Use everything at your disposal to remain with God. You're not—I don't know if you're doing that—but you should not say, 'My path is only this, my way is only this.' No, nothing else. Use the prayer; it's so supportive. And whenever you feel that the mind is trying to push you around and it has some tentacles, go into your prayer.

So whenever that comes naturally, what where I go is the satsang words you speak. It comes to me honestly because I'm still not going to God, you know? Rather, some random satsang, some pointers you have given, comes as a like—the other day two things you told me. One is, 'If you're spotting it, it is inside you.' That was like a tight, nice tight slap. Spot it, you got it. Yeah. And one another thing is we were talking about this politics, A and B, and that can't be reason for hate. Yes, exactly. That one. You just said that like I'm going on, going on, going on, and the thoughts were like coming, coming, coming, coming, and this came as an answer for an antidote to some random thoughts. And wow, this is there, you know? So these are also words of satsang. Do the prayer is also words of... what is the mode of meditation? Is it like japa or what? Mindfulness?

No, it's a technique where you imagine light and just be in that space. Have you been doing it for like ten years? Do that light. Deepen into your heart? Yes, then stay with that. Use that as your anchor. Yes, the unperceivable light. It may start—the process may begin as an imagination, and that is a way to use your antahkarana to focus on that which is deeper than that. But the light of God will bring you to His unperceivable light. You will recognize the light intuitively. And that light then can become a beautiful anchor.

Thank you. For me, long was, you know, simple. Of course, you know, I can't admit that I love to travel, but also, you know, my wife relationship is just wonderful together. I'll be away for ten days and so this whole thing has given something troubling me as to, you know, you're breaking up for worldly attractions and temptations with a group. And it'll be a—I don't know if I get space to do the kind of stuff that I do every day, you know, the inquiry and it. So somehow it's been something very innocuous, joyful, that has been tormenting me with guilt. So I just want to, you know—it sounds so foolish.

No, it's fine. I can imagine asking for permission or suggestions. Don't worry. Even your—no, no, no. It can be. Where is this where you go? So sometimes what happens is that when we see things out of the ordinary, is it not something that we are not seeing every day? That also stills the mind. Is it? So enjoy yourself in that way. Enjoy the sights to bring you to the no-man. And overall, just don't stress about it. You're going for ten days; you're going to come back here. As long as you come back here, He'll take care of you. But you never know. Every trip you take, you will find God saying hello to you, like it happens every time you go anywhere.

When I went to visit my son, we took a trip to New York also. And in that trip, we went to this—I don't know what it's called—one of the tallest buildings in the world, whatever, and they have that whole viewing deck. Where the World Trade Center used to be, they have this new one, One World Trade, something like that. So from that viewing deck, I saw this beautiful church, you see? And I just felt like I want to go there for a short visit and see. But I was with my kids and family, so I knew my kids will immediately groan and moan and not want to go, and I don't want to force them because we were a short time over there. But I just felt like I wanted to go. But then I didn't want to bother them, so I didn't say it.

Then what happened is after that thing, my son said, 'Let me take you somewhere. I'm going to take you to Joe's Pizza.' So Joe's Pizza is supposed to be one of the best in New York. So he took me there. And when we went to Joe's Pizza, we went out, we took our slices, and we were standing outside Joe's Pizza, and I look towards my left and there is the church. It's St. Patrick's Church. And I said—then I told my kids—'Now that we are right here, we go. We just go for a few minutes.' And we went inside and it was so beautiful. And my kids also had such a nice time. I could see on their faces, you know, they were really enjoying. If it went on much longer, obviously they wouldn't have enjoyed, but it happens everywhere that you go that, you know, God is very loving. He's very, very gracious and kind.

So He realizes when Maya has got us, no? Then He also finds—like otherwise it can seem so difficult to invoke His presence and to be in His presence all day—but if you're caught up somewhere and things like that, then He also finds a way to come to you and say, 'Hello, I'm still here, don't worry.' So you'll see Him, you'll find Him in the strangest ways. Especially with a place like Egypt, I feel like it'll be very beautiful. You can see this new Netflix show, I don't know if you've seen it. What is it? The Testament of Moses. It's set in Egypt. It's so funny that with Moses, with Jesus, with Krishna, they were all born in times where these oppressive kings were saying, 'Kill all the children who are born because one of them will grow up and kill me' or something. But Grace always finds a way.

How to do the prayers with the name of the one that we would love to forgive or to pray for? This is an example which is: 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on [his or her name], a sinner. Bless [his or her heart] with the light of spirit.' Exactly.

I got so into the show, the Shrimad Ramayan. Initially it was because the first few episodes are very violent and so I didn't—then I shut it off. Then one of you reminded me, 'Just try it again.' It's very nice, very... there's a TV show called Shrimad Ramayan. Very nice. And the Shabri episode is spectacular. Even the Hanuman Ji episode is really... you saw it? So much love for God everywhere. How strange is it that all this love for God itself, how the mind uses to divide us? 'Oh, but that's Hinduism, but that's Christianity, that's Islam, that's Sikhism, that's Judaism.' No, it's all about God. It is all about the Beloved One. Only ones who are avoiding meeting God can get into all this kind of stupidity.

Like how the zone is. And like normally when you know you give in, like even during the game, you're sitting down and then be like, 'Oh, what if I lose?' and you know, what this, what that, what that. And then suddenly you'll be like, you'll just put that aside and then you just want to play. So I think like, you know, even in life, that's what it is. It's like, you know, it keeps coming and going, but when you put it aside and then you are just there, and that's how it is. It's the same to be open and empty is just like that. So you're trying to be like that throughout the day.

Very good. If we are empty, then we are empty for God anyway. We don't have to label it and say, 'I'm empty for God.' You're empty, you're empty for God anyway. But be careful of the mind's version of empty. It is just saying that 'I'm empty as long as I'm not suffering,' you see? Ah, so that's an important... of course suffering cannot come when you are empty. Suffering cannot come when you are empty. But just because in that moment you don't seem to be suffering doesn't mean you're empty. Because in the mind's way also, it has to let you win once in a while so you continue to have interest in the game.

You remember some of you have children, so you know that how you played with younger ones. So with my kids, suppose we are playing some game of cards or something we are playing. After two, three games, if you don't let them win, they're going to say, 'No, I'm not playing,' you see? So Maya wants you to be interested in her throughout. So she's not going to say, 'Oh yes, you will keep suffering, keep suffering, keep suffering.' No. Then everybody would turn to God much more quickly, is it? Why is it that mostly people come to satsang, especially satsang like this which to the world sounds very radical, you see, after their throats have been squeezed a lot mostly? Because we just keep thinking that we can still win, we can still win. The game itself is rigged. Can't win. Can't win in Maya.

So many years back, I came across this example where it was talking about free will. This one goes to a ride—was it Francis Lucille? Somebody, yeah, maybe Francis Lucille. He goes to a ride in Universal Studios or somewhere where the idea is that you will go on this like a roller coaster, an open roller coaster, but you will get signals: turn left, turn right, you see? So when that sign comes, you have to give it all your power and go in that direction, you see? And if you give it all your strength, then it actually turns along with you. So he starts, gets on the ride, it says 'turn left.' He really forces it, you know, go left, left, left, and then the compartment, the whatever it's called, turns left. So you feel like, 'Wow, I did well.'

Next time it says 'turn right.' I turn right, right, right, right, right, right. But actually it went left. So he said, 'Yeah, actually the first time I put all my effort, the second time I became a bit complacent now.' So third time I'll really go well, you see? So third time it does and it works. He says, 'Yes, now I'm getting it.' So like that, fourth time it works, fifth time it doesn't work, sixth time it doesn't work, you know? So he says, 'Okay, now I know how to play this game, how much effort to put, how much effort to not put. I figured it out.' And by the time the ride ends, he is told that it was all pre-programmed. All pre-programmed. Like whether it went left or right, it didn't matter at all.

So it's a very good representative of Maya. Try, try, try. We don't try, don't try. Things work, you become proud. Things don't work, we become guilty. All these things happen. Yeah, we know that. 'I didn't do this well, I could have done this, next time I'll try like this.' All this will happen. But in that, the whole idea is to keep you involved in the game. The only effort that we need to put is to go inward, to go in the other direction. And if you come to God's presence, if you come to His light, you think that He will not take care of you?

Somebody said very beautifully—maybe I shared in satsang also—that that which seems like an absence of security to us, that means the full surrender to live in God's will, is actually the only safety possible in life. It really hit me, this one. Because we are constantly scared of giving up our own will to live in God's will, to live in His presence, you see? Because actually, we may not say it or say it, but we are actually scared of what is going to happen. What is He going to do? 'I don't want to become a sadhu.' 'I want to become a sadhu, what if He makes me a householder?' See, we have our plans. But we don't realize that there is no safety in our plans. The only safety there is, is in God's plan.

It's all upside down. Why don't we follow? If His presence is there in the heart, why don't we wait for Him to guide us or move us? Because we don't want to miss our opportunity, our idea of what is good for us. So we are scared of losing. But actually, the only winning is to find that which is beyond death. Huh? Where is this ride going, by the way? Sorry to make it morbid suddenly, but this ride with all its left and right turns, it goes straight into the grave. Don't spend your life just worrying about what size of tombstone you'll have. It's not going to make any difference.

Is there in the heart? Why don't we wait for him to guide us or move us? Because we don't want to miss our opportunity, our idea of what is good for us. So we're scared of losing, but actually the only winning is to find that which is beyond death. Huh? Where is this ride going, by the way? Sorry to make it morbid suddenly, but this ride with all its left and right turns leads straight into the grave. Don't spend your life just worrying about what size of tombstone you'll have; it's not going to make any difference to you. Just explore. Explore: is there a way to find that which is beyond death? You met a crazy one who's telling you there is, you see? But you have to explore for yourself.

Something Krishna said was very beautiful. He said the winds of Grace are always blowing; they're always helping us, you see? But we have to put up our sail. So this whole spirituality is a constant tug-of-war between effort and Grace, isn't it? You see, like, what is going to be my effort? What has to happen by Grace? We often have that thing, you see. But my question is: if you can, if you think you can put effort for anything at all, why not put full effort for God? Even if everything has to happen by Grace, why not put full effort for God? It's just our laziness or just our fear. Maya is a great tempter, temptress. But I'm telling you, I promise you, that that which you will find if you live in God's light—Maya cannot come close to that taste. So safety is with God. True joy is with God. The rest is all thol. Very good, very good.

Okay. How to move from shamana vairagya to real vairagya? Will attention to God constantly automatically release the taste for the world? Yes, yes, it's very good.

To experience the dispassion when we are faced with the reality of death—and most of us report this—that we see the cremation grounds, the death of a beloved one, and it really helps us to bring some perspective to the treadmill of life that we're constantly chasing, running, running, running. It's very good. But you're right that many times it doesn't last because Maya pulls us back in; it makes us forget about death. So that's why I keep reminding everyone also. All this that's being shared is so that you come to an actual taste of the living presence of God. If at the end of this life of sharing satsang, I realize that all this was said but nobody actually came to the taste which was being pointed to, to the darshan which is being pointed to, then it would not have been a worthwhile life in my eyes.

The point is to compare the taste of living in God's light with the taste of what the world can offer us. And you will see that those who start sipping from this nectar of the Atma within can never be so swayed by temptation. There are so many of our brothers and sisters to whom most of what satsang is sharing is just notional or conceptual and, to be honest, nonsensical. You see, it can sound stupid or radical or too far out at best. But for some reason, there are so many of us who are seeing the true possibility of meeting God, to be with him, to spend our life in his life. The highest is only apparent from there, and how to live is also only apparent from there.

Actually, the fact is that I'm more concerned if it is not sounding very difficult. If somebody is saying, 'It's very easy, easy, and I'm with God only,' I want to spend some more time talking with you. It is, but it isn't, you know? It is at one level, moment to moment, but many times the mind is just building these houses of cards. So if you tell me you have a glimpse but it is fleeting, that you stay but you're tempted by the mind over and over, then I feel like we're walking together.

Why? For both your younger generation and for your present generation—make a joke—for both your younger generation and your present generation, satsang is like a sleeping pill. Poor boy thankfully found a place next to the wall. Not Gopala. I just want to share, Father, this like—I'm also a bit drowsing, drowsing today. I'm also falling asleep listening to myself.

One day I was just praying and it was an experience. Only me, experience was very... I don't know what you were praying on Monday and you had an experience? Yeah, I was just sitting praying in the daily and something suddenly I felt like I exist without my body. Like, I don't need my body to exist. That felt like really, really strong.

You don't need your body to... the body needs you to exist. You don't need your body to exist. How you exist in a dream? There also, actually, you feel like you have a body, but does that body have substance? It's the same for this one. It feels like that 'I, I.' I don't know that there was a strong feeling that I, that egoic 'I' kind of feeling. I exist.

Ego is 'I am something.' It is. But really, if you break down that 'I,' it rests on the notion that I am something. That is ego. Pure 'I-ness' is not ego. Who is witnessing the perception of this hand? This one, this... who is witnessing the perception of this hand? You are. I. That 'I' is not ego. The one that has a narrative that 'I am witnessing the perception of this,' that is ego. That which is the pure witnessing is not ego.

I just wanted to report that I think I feel the more areas I am going, the touchier, more slightly more irritable, slightly more fearful things are happening. Just want to...

It's very natural, actually. When you start chanting, when you start praying, anger comes. Sometimes we feel like Shiva is just, you know... but just don't get angry. I got angry at her yesterday for a thing, but I just want to also whip the whole day. So that's what's happening and I just want to report that to you. I'm sticking with that. There's a video of Ananta just recently. Some just builds, builds, builds. You're looking at it building, building, building, and it'll come out at the slightest cue. Ma has told us not to get angry, so our job is to follow. Ma has told us not to get angry, so our job is to follow.

It happened, huh? It happened in the past.

But our commitment now is to be... no, then it'll happen again. Of course it'll happen, you see? But then our commitment has to be even stronger. No, but if we commit already with the idea that, 'Oh yeah, but it will happen,' then it's not commitment. When we commit 100%, it has a chance of happening 50%.

The story she... in that video she says that somebody took the room where... I'll say it in the mic. Yes, I'll say it in the mic.

So there was a very senior disciple of Ma. He was given a special housing, a special hut. Then one time what happened is that she told some of the other disciples, 'Tell him that that room has to be vacated and he is to find some other place.' Because he was a very senior disciple, he threw a tantrum. The amount of tantrums they throw with Ma, they've broken all records. With me also, the kind of things they tell her, it's amazing. So, don't learn that. So this one was very upset. So he fought with Ma saying, 'What do you think? Why did you tell me to go?' So Ma told him that, 'I made a mistake. I made a mistake.' Then a few days later, there was a flood in the Ganga Ji and that house got swept away. So that was the... so that man, he learned his lesson to not get angry about things that we don't understand. Beautiful lesson in faith.

But also she said that many people say, 'Oh, you say to us never get angry and all of that, but what about all these sages, all these so-called sages who got so angry, who cursed people, who said you will become a stone, you will become something?' So she said that, 'Okay, you're taking that example, but they also had the power to say, "Okay, now when this happens, then you'll be free from the curse. You will be free from all of that."' So until you have those kind of powers, don't get angry. Don't get angry.

So once we start, when we stop making excuses for ourselves, then we can hold ourselves up to these standards that sages have set for us. And of course we'll fail. Of course we'll fail. But our attempt has to be 100%. But if you're already going to start half-hearted, then there's no point. Then you'll feel like, 'Oh, I was right.' You just understand that it's never right until we become those kind of sages. Then we are also forced to deepen in our prayer because there will be times where we feel like we are being attacked, bombarded from all sides. Then we have to take refuge in our heart.

I don't want to say the next part, which is that sometimes Krishna in the heart will tell you to pick up the bow and arrow, but ask him twice, okay? Don't rush into it. Don't. If you... it's okay to make excuses for yourself and say, 'I was forced into it, it happened, I couldn't help it,' but never use God as an excuse that 'God told me this.' This is not right. Just make sure you're not fooling yourself in this very obnoxious way, in the sense that it is an extension of not taking God's name in vain. Because we can't... like, can we really say... I was part of a sangha long, long back where anyone who needed anything done would say, 'I remember everyone.' So there were points where opposite things both said, 'Guruji said, huh?'

So then I realized that because it's so difficult to work in seva projects without hierarchy, you see, that people end up saying that, 'I'll just say, because I'm right, this needs to be done anyway, so I'll just say Guruji had told me.' So never do that, especially with God. If we... sorry, but if we come to a point where we are needing so strongly to be right that we have to say, 'Oh, but I was guided by God to do this or to attack you or to get angry or to do this,' then you better be very, very sure in your heart. Remember, because the world will fool us. We will get away by seeming right here many, many times, but you will not be able to hide from yourself. Your heart knows, you see? Your heart knows.

So don't do these things. Don't use Advaita as an excuse for bad behavior. I went to a teacher one time who said, 'Oh, but I didn't do anything. It was only Consciousness working through me.' But you are the ones who started all this, so then you are the ones... it was not Consciousness doing whatever they were doing. Consciousness was doing. So we must learn from the mistakes of others and not repeat them ourselves. If you get into those traps, then Advaita has the best excuses, you see? But for what? You will have your way, you will be right, others will tell you, 'Oh, you're so good, you're so right.' So what? All this in Maya. But do you deepen in your relationship with God? Is the flame of his love getting stronger in your heart when you do these things?

As you're all growing, we're all growing together. All these things which may seem like small things for beginners then become very important things. So it's very important to be the perfect temple for God, to try and be. Nobody will ever be perfect, but the things that come out of our mouth—will we want them as posters inside the temple? Then why do we say them? Then how are we a temple of God? Because when God's presence is found within you, when his light is shining bright within you, then you see that your only purpose in life is to be a temple of God. Your life is a temple. But if you desecrate it yourself... and yes, Maya is strong. Maya will compel us, will tempt us in various ways. But our job is to return quickly to his refuge, his presence, instead of proving ourselves to be right.

And what I'm saying is not metaphorical. It is not mystical. It is not poetic. It is not romantic. I'm saying very literally that your life will attain its true purpose as a true temple of God. And that's how the Atma's family will grow. That's how the Atma's gurukul will grow, Atma's discipleship will grow, as we pluck small, small flowers from those who are in the grip of Maya and bring them towards the true, true light. That's how the family of God will grow as well. But if our life is not exhibiting kindness, compassion, love, true generosity, putting others first, then what are the icons we are putting up on God's temple that we are trying to construct?