Allowing the Atma To Reveal the True Gyana (Self-Knowledge) - 20th February 2026

Okay. Who witnesses this one?

Another place. Another place.

It's another place. But who is there?

Empty. Yes.

Who notices that? Like you know it's empty, right? Is it firsthand information or secondhand information?

Secondhand. Feels, feels secondhand.

Secondhand would mean that someone else perceives it and then makes a report to you and therefore you are able to take their conclusion as yours.

Something is watching. Something swirling.

There is a swirling.

There's a swirling.

And you say something is watching that.

Yeah.

And how does this information come to you?

I'm witnessing it.

You are witnessing it.

I am witnessing now.

This one that is witnessing it. What does that one look like? You say it is I which is witnessing it. What can be said about that I? Who is unable to make a report about this one? Are there two of you now?

No, just the witness.

Who is aware that it's just the witnessing? The question is hitting home or the mind is trying to confuse?

No, it's, it's the witness. I am the witness.

Witness. You are the witness.

I am the witness. And the witnessing of things showing up within me.

That also I am witnessing. I see. So let's say that you are perceiving this voice. I think we can reduce this by one maybe. Oh, it's all right. You are perceiving this voice, isn't it? You call that hearing?

Really? Yes.

So this hearing, what is your relationship with this hearing? Are you hearing the hearing as witness?

It seems to be appearing within me. It is appearing within me.

Yes. So hearing appears within you. Now how is it met? How are you meeting it as hearing? If your attention went to an object of sight, then how is that perception called sight met? If you feel some sensations in the body, how are those sensations met? The perception we can break up into type of perception: sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell. But the meeting of this perception is through what?

Mind for now, at least for this conversation, is a bundle of thoughts. So bundle of thoughts cannot perceive, cannot witness anything.

What I'm trying to get at is that do you change to meet sight and change to meet hearing and change to meet touch, taste, smell, or do you stay the same?

Stay the same.

You stay the same. The twin sister is answering for you. Hello. And the same, same witness. So if I was to introduce the word aware, that you are aware of sight, you're aware of touch, taste, smell, hearing. Would that aware be equal to perception? I know this is a bit out of syllabus from how the question, how this last few things have been also, no?

No.

So we say that I am aware of sight, I'm aware of hearing, I'm aware of touch, taste, smell. So this aware, how is it different from these perceptions that we define or modes of perception that we define? Is awareness the same as perception?

No.

So there is no actual thing called perception, isn't it? Perception is just a category that we use to say for sight, smell, touch, taste, all of these things. Collectively we call that perception. You see, but awareness is not sight. You see, awareness is not hearing. Awareness is not tasting or cannot—what I mean is it cannot be categorized just as—so if I was to say that you witness all of these perceptions or you are aware of all of these perceptions, does that seem accurate?

Yes.

Yes. So the you that witnesses every perception, what is its size, shape, color?

The I that witnesses cannot be perceived.

How are you reporting about it?

Just aware.

Where is this awareness? Yeah. Now if this awareness is you, which can be hurt, which can be angry, which can be distracted, which can be any states that can come—no, there isn't another you. So every story that we have for let's call it the 'me,' who do they actually belong to? No one. And your mind is a bundle of stories. You see? And when we recognize that these stories belong to no one, then they don't have a place to land. When our stories don't have a place to land, then we become empty. And that emptiness is the birthing ground for Atma Darshan, Atma Gyan, to come to the recognition of the reality of God's presence as the Atma and the insight into ourself as that Nirguna Brahman. You see, so right now our answers are on the basis of a negation that we don't find anyone there. You see, and that negation is useful because it prevents avidya from growing, ignorance from growing, conditioning from growing. What can happen to you now?

Nothing. Nothing.

Now to fall into suffering, what is the hard work you have to do? You have to make thoughts important. What do we mean by important? We give them attention. So we give them importance through attention and then we bind to the truth value of what they are proposing. You see, so if a thought comes and says, 'You're not getting this' or 'I am not getting this,' you see, if it's just allowed to come and go, it doesn't do anything. If it is believed in, identified with, then there seems to be now a Chand who is not getting it, you see, or a Chanda who is getting it. Either way, you see, but when investigated we find that there is no such Chand.

Yeah, this awareness of things showing up and going away. There's no attachment. There's no person. There's no identity. There is simply the awareness.

Yeah.

Of what is showing and what is going.

Yeah. You get—who has come to the noticing of this?

I, the awareness itself.

So did this I forget when it was caught up in the story of the moon? Then did it forget that it is awareness alone?

It doesn't change. It doesn't get into states of even delusion. It is the unchanging substratum.

See, so what is happening in Satsang is that our soul, our Antahkarana, is recognizing its own source in the light of spirit. You see, because awareness remains unchanging, and also mind can or person can never know it is awareness. This is not—it cannot, it's not possible. You see, the mind is only a bundle of thoughts and it can only interpret perception. This is not a perception. You see, the negation is a perception. So negation is a perception: 'I don't find anybody there.' So I perceive the absence of a somebody. I perceive an emptiness or darkness. That is not the Emptiness that we speak of, capital E. We see the absence and we call that the emptiness, like there is no person there. You see, we notice the absence. Like we opened the door to a room and we saw the room was empty. You see, and we saw that there's no person there. There is no Chand there. There is no Zen up there. So on that negation we perceive that blankness. We perceive the absence of a person there. The recognition of reality, you see, is not through negation. Negation is a helpful step to make us empty like that. And then when we stay there, when we abide there, then through the eyes of the Atma itself, through the eyes of the spirit itself, we recognize that which is beyond all perception, like a positive. Then we can make a positive statement that 'I am That.'

This is not the person is not my Atma is my—

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And that is called Atma Gyan or it's called intuitive insight. It is not a personal knowledge. It is not a mental knowledge, nor is it a perceptual knowledge.

But person thinks it is, it belongs to itself when it reveals this kind of insight.

Yeah.

In a seeming person, when the person or mind onto itself and I see it—

Exactly.

After, not during the Atma, it cannot do it but after.

Yeah, there are two ways in which it is said. The first way is that the mind comes to interpret the experience and it makes a narrative about the experience or the recognition and then it starts to trust the truth of that narrative and then it forces us to, or it tries to tempt us to use the narrative instead of the recognition. So we go into 'I am the awareness itself' like in a very mental way. The second way it is in which it is spoken is when the speaker is relying on the Atma to provide the words to its mouth. You see, and then when Atma itself decides to reveal the words in this way, that's how the sages would speak. So then when they are speaking, they're not speaking from the construct of being that; they're just allowing the Atma to point to that using this instrument or using their body.

So Father, that which is being perceived has no landing place. There's no landing place. Yeah. And I, the witness, am fully aware.

What we have to avoid at all cost is that none of these should become conclusions. You see why? Because it'll keep you fresh. Otherwise what will happen is that if you repeat the conclusion often enough to yourself, you will not rely on the insight anymore. Then like the chai shop inu, you will keep saying, 'I am the awareness, I am the Self,' you see, but the fragrance won't be there. So I've learned over the years to make sure to allow you to settle into that, resisting the mind's temptation to make it into knowledge because it'll try to make it conceptual knowledge. It'll say, 'What's happening to me now? What's my report?' You see, and then that will pose as self-knowledge and that's what we're talking about. Then it becomes stale. Then when it becomes stale, then that is very difficult to shake. Because when knowledge about the Self, which is that I am that unchanging reality, that pure awareness, then it is impossible even to shake you out of that conceptual knowledge because what can one really say? Anything? 'You must continue to do the inquiry,' you say, 'but I am that awareness unchanging, who must do the inquiry?' You see? So does awareness need the label awareness? Does awareness also need the affirmation that 'I am That'? Doesn't need. So the negatives are good for now. 'I am not this. I'm not this body. I'm not this mind. I'm not this body-mind. I'm not what my intellect is talking about.' You see, the 'not' is helpful, but for some time just rely on your inner heart vision for the positive. Where did you go? To the same place which we've been talking about. That is the doorway of the heart temple.

Why you do the inquiry? So does awareness need the label awareness? Does awareness also need the affirmation that 'I am that'? It doesn't need. So the negatives are good for now. I am not this. I'm not this body. I'm not this mind. I'm not this body-mind. I'm not what my intellect is talking about. You see, the 'not' is helpful, but for some time just rely on your inner heart vision for the positive. Where did you go? To the same place which we've been talking about. That is the doorway of the heart temple. When we leave ourselves, all our pretenses, all our conditions, all our faculties, and just empty—that is the place where insight can flow, where Atma can flow. I know how close is the story of the one who lives in Jam and what happened? Everybody was away and then came back. How close or distant does all that seem? As we get deeper in this insight, then all these stories start to seem very distant. They're not so—they don't have the juice that they used to.

Now, let's try the 'checker guy.' 'You're not doing the inquiry correctly,' like these kind of things. Be careful. Now it'll use the words of satsang itself to be the authoritative checker guy in your head. So I've said don't make concept out of it; he'll try and use that. 'See, now you're making—he had said don't make concept out of it. You're making concept.' It'll—but it'll not have the love. You see, it'll have the oppression. It'll have the authority but no love. You see? So this discard—it is discarded. If there is a loving sense you get from your heart, then use that as guidance. Look at that smile. There you go. Love you, too. That's okay. We can pass. It's off.

Following this guidance, following this guidance there is, um, no juice like you say, but still there is a bodily perception. And like if the persona would be there like a Damocles.

Yes. What—who witnesses this? I like the expression.

The one behind the camera.

And how far are you from that one?

Very far away.

Where?

Where are you watching the one behind from? More behind.

Yes. So it's the same. So what is happening to that one who's watching from more behind? Nothing but—

But focus.

Yes. There's this focus here. This—

Yeah. So if the focus, which means attention—attention goes to some perception.

Yes. Can that perception hurt the one that is witnessing?

No. No. Cannot. So to get involved with that perception in some way—

Mhm.

What do you have to do? I would say it somehow happens, but it doesn't happen.

It doesn't happen. You see, it doesn't just happen.

No.

So, who tried to tell you it just happens? Catch that one. You see, because that one is the trickster.

Mhm. See, it's automatic. The image comes and I'm already involved—and there is no image. It's a sensation. The sensation is there.

Yes. So the sensation without a label has no meaning for us. You see, but when we take the label, the interpretation, the narrative to be true, then we seem to make a relationship.

If I let this go or no attention then—

Okay, allow attention to be free. Yes. Don't worry about where our attention is going. Just don't buy into any idea.

Some undescribable fear is coming up.

This is idea.

Yes. It's—I label this it as mind labels as fear.

Yes. So let that go. You don't have to know what it is.

Mhm. Neither joy nor fear. Yes, it's undescribable.

Yeah. And the indescribable causes no trouble.

No, but still—

It wants to see till you buy into the label.

Yes. Exactly. You see, you need to know what it is to cause trouble to yourself.

Yes. Even sometimes if you call it indescribable, it can sound like indescribable trouble.

Mhm. This want to label. Knowing that not going there I could only describe with freedom.

Yes. So if not going there—let's not, let's promise this is last label. So if not going there is freedom, then you have a sense of what going there is, isn't it?

Could you repeat please?

You say that 'I already see that if I don't go there I am free.'

Yes.

Therefore we already know that if you go there, what you are—you are bound.

Yes.

I broke my promise and used one more label. You see, but soon—I keep saying soon. I don't know when, but we will be able to have satsang without needing to use the label of free or bound. We don't need to be concerned with what is showing up either with eyes open or with eyes closed. No interpretation, no story, no label. Yes. No. Amen. Preparation for the retreat. This seems to be—I'm enjoying this today because it came out of nowhere. No. So, it took everyone a bit by surprise. Everybody's a bit—you see, but when you keep doing it for years, but who are you? Yeah. What else you got? I'm always reverted to his classical expression.

Just when I was settling, not changing any of that. You're in the way. Are you at all for there? This addiction to personhood which—which is like even it doesn't seem like addiction. So I offer it at your feet to God.

This is incredible. I don't know what else to say. It is the strongest addiction. There is no denying that the addiction to our thoughts and therefore to our narrative is the strongest addiction. So all of spirituality is the de-addiction from that. So when you keep taking God's name, there's no room for any other narrative, for any other story. When you remain in God's presence, usually by remembering his name, we just stay in that holiness. There's no room for—there's no interest in that narrative, that story. Then we ask ourselves, 'Who am I?' Same thing. So the breaking of this—of the clutches of this narrative—is what spirituality is about and that is why it is the most difficult project no matter what the method may be.

So surrender is a good part of it. If you can, if you surrender, then when the mind says, 'You are not doing this right, you could be doing this better, this is—you should do this, you should go here,' say, 'You're talking to the wrong one. I'm already surrendered. Take it up with God or take it up with Guru.' That is surrender, isn't it? My life is not mine anymore. It belongs to God. So when the mind comes and says, 'But you must do like that,' say, 'Take it up with the boss. Don't talk to me. I have left all agency to him.' Beautiful. When you determine to live only in God's will, then it's a determination to live in God's presence. So then when you're in God's presence, say that 'I am on a leash now.' Kabir, the great saint Kabir Ji, said that 'I am the pet of Ram Ji. Now wherever he pulls my leash, I go.' So allow yourself to be moved from the heart.

You see, so the medicine of satsang, the medicine of spirituality, is against—is for this addiction to personality, to personhood and therefore to Maya. Same thing. But also I want to say—and I forgot—the belief that 'I am only this body' is very strong.

It only—it will not remain strong unless you nourish it. It needs constant feeding.

But the addiction is the feeding. Yes, they go—the de-addiction process will prevent the feeding. You see, so if you keep taking God's name, Allah, how will you feed that one? No time. No time. You haven't fed your person today. Yes. Be kind to it. No. The mind will come with all kinds of petitions and say, 'You must balance it out. You see, don't be so harsh.' But it is the oppressor who has kept us in prison for this long will come and say, 'Don't be so harsh.' Oh, full, full God. Yes. Yes. The one who has to take care of everyone and everything is taken care. We don't have to feed the person anymore. There we go.

I say, 'But what about my work?' Don't feed it. It'll come up with all these temptations to keep us away from God. Is our being with God going to make the true work of our life happen, or to be away from God will make the work of our life happen? What about relationship? Is being with our truest relationship going to help share the love in the rest of our relationships, or by being away from the truest relationship we will have true relationships? So the mind's ideologies, philosophy, is all upside down. We'll come to you. Okay. Go to first. I want to see what that expression is about. Something nonsense. I will talk further.

Somehow when you were talking to Chandai and finally you came to the place where it's called awareness, which is an absence for me now at least, rather somehow it is still related to—has some relation with body-mind. So for example now if I am seeing it as if I—I am the way I can see awareness, I can see right now it's in, let's say, a vertical plane for—yeah. And when I'm sleeping and I'm seeing it, I'm seeing it as a horizontal plane. So it's still somehow related to my body.

It's all right. So you have to stay there. You stay there. It's not a bad thing what you're saying. You see, to stay at that doorway—

When—when a body is moving, it's moving with it, isn't it?

So what—what you're coming to is you're coming to the edge of your attention. You're coming to the end of your attention, which itself is a—is not a—it's a beautiful place to come to in spirituality. You see, because our attention is less all over the place. Then when you go deep within, you're—you're able to collect it and come to that place which seems like we can draw a correlation with the—with the body in some way like you're doing. You can do that. It's all right. But our job is to wait there. That is the Shab position. Waiting there.

And somehow, Father, while doing this it helps—so it's not that I'm trying to think a lot. Thank you. Thank you. That's good.

Father, you said, um, that we will learn to live without any labels and stories and something else I forget, but just so empty. And as of now I feel like I'm only living like that in bits and pieces. And when you said—when those words were heard, it felt—I could see the mind attacking that it's not possible.

Not possible only—

That it's a way—in a way it's like it felt like that's how babies live. No, Father?

Yeah.

And yeah, the mind was like, 'How is that even possible that you can—'

So then even for this God has given us the solution in His mercy. He has said, or the sages have said for Him, that if it is—if somehow we are able to get convinced that it is not possible to live without topic, if it is impossible to live without the topic, then make the only topic God. That is the marvel of God's name. I feel like screaming right now. The gift that we have by—by having His name is that we can make that central in our narrative very safely, as good as being empty. You see, then by His grace, if He ever makes it that the intimacy in the relationship with God is so much that no names are needed, then that's His grace. But if the name continues, it is not a—not a distance.

I just wanted to speak it aloud because it felt—

So now is it possible?

Yeah. See—

It feels it's possible, Father. It just was attacking that it's not possible all the time.

Yes.

But now is it possible all the time?

Yes. Very—

That's the beauty of this. So exactly both Ramsukhdas Ji and—and Bai have said that if to jump to complete emptiness is difficult or seems impossible for many of us, safely use God's name. So good. God couldn't have made it easier. Now it's just a question of our desire. Now it's just a question of—'But I want, but I also want.' Now the pathway to God is clear, but you say, 'But on the way can I have an ice cream also? On this thing can I have this candy also?' Can you see? 'And can I have this excitement also?' Then that will obviously get in the way. If we insert now our wants into it, then that's the only thing that can get in the way.

Father, it's only faith that stops us from living in this place. No?

Only faith that stops us from living in the wrong place. Yes.

Yes.

Because faith is—lack of faith prevents us from living in the right place. Same thing.

Lack of faith.

Yeah. See, just—yes. I have to exercise my intellect a bit. Sorry.

You see, and can I have this excitement also? Then that will obviously get in the way. If we insert now our wants into it, then that's the only thing that can get in the way.

Father, it's only faith that stops us from living in this place. No, only faith that stops us from living in the wrong place. Yes. Because lack of faith prevents us from living in the right place. Same thing. Lack of faith. Yeah. See, just I have to exercise my intellect a bit. Sorry. Because I was just looking at why am I... everything that comes out of my mouth, why isn't it from this place? And I was just looking; it's just the lack of faith that...

Yes, because faith makes the real real and the unreal unreal. Lack of faith makes the unreal real and the real unreal.

It also causes that rush, no Father, to operate from another.

That's one of the top tactics. I have to rush. I have no time to check who I am, to take God's name. I have no time because this is important. I'm talking about myself.

Even to speak, Father, even to respond to somebody. We would rather make a hash of it ourselves than give that two extra minutes to wait for God. You're talking about speaking to someone. You'd rather make a mess ourselves—at least I did it—than wait for God to move us.

That's lack of faith. Move on.

Yeah. Or like too much confidence in the wrong self. See, like any confidence in the wrong self is too much confidence in the wrong self. So Father, we can live like babies.

This point I emphasize before we go there: that any confidence in the false self is too much confidence in the false self. No? How much confidence to have in the person sitting here? Can't have any confidence in this person because there is nobody there. Exactly. It's the same as if you take one leaf, then the whole tree comes in a way. No? Yes. So when we grab one idea for this person, you say, 'But the finger is there, I can hold the finger of this person,' then we are giving value to his whole entityness.

Father, we can live a life like a baby, Father, so empty.

With the baby, as long as we are not trying to live a life like a baby in the sense that the baby is not trying to live a baby life; it is living a baby life. The minute it becomes a strategy, then it becomes convoluted. Then we fall into 'I am a spontaneous liver' type idea and this kind of... Yes. Good. What's the...

Yes. I'm noticing that you're speaking about the addiction to person and I'm seeing that there are some like... I think in the Indian culture they call it like vasanic energies or something like that. And I'm realizing that I really have no control necessarily over how the purification happens in that layer of my being. And at the same time, it's so amazing how when you just do like this thing, all of it just vanishes. Yeah. Because somehow in my heart you've planted that seed of his own, like it's the 'about God' seed, that it's just about God. And it has like the same spirit of when you take the name of God, it's the same... although it seems much more choppy, but it's still the same light of the thing. Like when you take God's name in your heart and when you just... I don't know how to say... when you just leave everything. It's like the consciousness is holding on to things and then you just... like that. And I'm seeing how there's like two aspects of like the sense of deepening and, you know, making mistakes, learning from them, repenting to God and this kind of thing. And at the same time, there's something else that I don't know, I can't speak about it, but both of them are just there somehow. And it's a very strange thing that my mind can't understand and I don't understand it; they're just there. There's like a realm of having a sense of communicating with God and like learning from different cultures. Like when I hear the name of Ram, he has like this spirit of... is there, or like being able to... all of that is there. And the sense of the somebody-ness dissolving. And at the same time, like when there is complacency and I see that it's like God just sends back the things. It's like He can just undress you and then dress you back with the vasanas or something like that. In order to keep something humble. And also something I realized is there are like some impressions and like conditioning that maybe let's say like grievance or like a sense of maybe you're not speaking to a family member or these kind of things. By God's grace, I see that that aspect has been mostly purified just even without the intention to, but I realize that God still keeps some seeds of things to work on. Yeah. It can just be like the image, something like... it just keeps it there like something to... I don't know, maybe it's in order not to become... to have a sense of perfection or something in the human realm. He leaves some things there that are troubling to the soul somehow, like some things that... a sense of shortcoming. And I'm also very grateful for this because at first I didn't understand. I was asking God like, 'Why you are taking all these other things but these impressions, you're just leaving them there?' And it's now what I'm seeing, and through your words, it's beginning to make sense as to why. And it's like these two are just there and they are one somehow, but I cannot understand it somehow. I just know it's very beautiful.

Very beautiful. Maya can afflict us only as much as God gives it permission to. You see, it does not have the power to go beyond God's will. So now a very simple way of looking at that is to keep us humble, to keep us from falling into the most dangerous vasana called pride. So that's a simple way of looking at it and it's a very useful way of looking at it. But can we really say why God does what He does? We can't really say; we just... because we need. Then as we deepen in our love for God, then we reduce in our need to understand why He does what He does. We just feel like, 'Oh, He is doing it, so that has to be best,' you see. And maybe even the notion of better and worse goes away, but it's all right. So whatever afflictions we have, if we keep looking at it through the lens of God's knowledge—that God knows that this affliction is here in my life—and that remembrance that He knows should be enough for us to remember that He loves us so much that He doesn't want us to suffer at all, even one iota more than needed for our own deepening, for our own growth. Then we just remove our intellect from judging the causes of why something is happening in our lives. We just... if we have to communicate it, we just say it is God's grace. So that beautiful line from Job in the Book of Job was... if we take good from God's hand, what does it say? Somebody remember the line? If you can look it up and then tell me. Forgotten... something like that. If we take joy, then will we not take sorrow from His hand? So that really opened my eyes to something where I felt that so often it becomes like an entitlement when good things happen and so much garbage has been taken away from our lives. But when those things which poke us, which still keep poking us inside like that, then we feel like, 'Why is God doing this to me?' You see? But we didn't say, 'Why is God doing this to me?' when He took out all the rubbish that we had. We didn't say, 'Why is God doing this to me?' You see? But when something troubles us, then we say, 'Why is God doing this to me?' You see? So that one line demolished this idea.

We accept good things from God. So we should also accept trouble when He sends it. Ah, that's the translation. Voice from God and not trouble. Yes. See, shall we accept good from God and not trouble? Okay, that also sounds like the translation is the New King James.

Why do you feel like God takes away so much garbage from our life? Like we have an answer for why He makes us... why He brings us these things which poke us, which trouble us. We say it is to keep us humble. You see, now if that is 0.1% of the trouble we could have actually gotten into if it was left to the 'me,' then why has He helped us with that 99.9999%? Why?

Because He loves us.

Because He loves us so much. Thank you. We hardly dwell on that, no? Like if you look back at our lives, and if we had like my way about my life, it would be such a disaster. You see? So why has He helped me throughout and every step of the way? Why is He in this love? Why is this love? Huh? So we taste being with Him because He loves us. He can't stand the distance.

Yeah. Um, I also saw like... today we were doing like a presentation. I had to do like some sort of presentation and I was seeing like the sense of the weakness is there, but there's... it's like there's something that is like a fight in me somehow. A subtle sort of thing where it's like something... I don't know how to say it... it's like the shape-taking is so compelling. It's so... it's just somehow there, somehow like this. It's just an aspect of the consciousness of it. It just happens in there. But what one thing I'm grateful for that you showed me is that, and I've also seen it, is that God actually responds to your intention and will. And that's something that is very powerful because the spirit you get supported somehow as long as your intention is to stay in the true place. The spirit somehow backs... it doesn't back in an arrogant way, but He somehow backs and strengthens it. That's what I've seen. I'm very grateful.

No, I would say not just backs us up; the spirit lifts us up. It is the spirit itself which does all of it. When we align ourselves with God's will, that means have the right intention, then all His power flows through. And you're absolutely right that the witness is untouched. But in this play, it can seem like a full-on battle. You see, and if you're not recognizing the fight between Maya and Atma, you see, then we have somewhere normalized the absence of God in our lives. We have probably—let me not be that conclusive—we have probably normalized the absence of God in our lives if it seems like there is no fight going on. You see? Like if you don't see the struggle to be empty, the struggle to not fall into temptation from the mind, not fall into selfishness and pride, you see. And so then my humble request would be that try to deepen the attempt to live constantly in God's presence and constantly in God's name. You see, that's the... is the Mahabharat in every... is the whole... when King David is talking about the enemies or when Arjuna is talking about the enemies, he's talking about attachment, he's talking about fear, he's talking about pride, all of these things. And the greatest sages in India have fallen for one temptation or the other in their... you see, like the famous stories of Vishwamitra and Parashuram Ji and Narada Ji himself over and over. And the greatest one closest to God, Lakshman Ji, falling for pride. All those are saved there as cautionary tales for us to learn from, not for us to say, 'Oh, see, even they were...' but for us to spot that in ourselves, you see. And to say that everyone, no matter how spiritually accomplished, except God Himself, you see, can fall into the trap of Maya. That's why Ram Ji is called Mayapati, no? We cannot say for a sage that they are Mayapati because Maya has attacked many sages and they have fallen for it. So that also keeps us humble. But why am I making the statement? Because if the greatest sages have fallen for it from time to time, then we who are just beginners on the path, then I need to be really careful. So that's the thing: that because of the force of Maya, that which is most original, most natural for us seems like a fight. Is she still recovering from the wedding? You're not... it's today their sweet... Hello, Father. Hello, my dear. Yeah, it's so true. The struggle is real. Yeah.

It keeps us humble. Why am I making the statement? Because if the greatest sages have fallen for it from time to time, then we who are just beginners on the path need to be really careful. So that's the thing: because of the force of Maya, that which is most original and most natural for us seems like a fight. Is she still recovering from the wedding? You're not? It's today, their sweet.

Hello, Father.

Hello, my dear.

Yeah, it's so true. The struggle is real. I think I just want to kind of—

Just on one thing on the struggle, I just got reminded of this yesterday. In the Mahabharat, Krishna did some Leela of his and he basically gave the option to Duryodhan, isn't it, saying that you pick: you want me or you want my armies? And Krishna's armies were many, many, like millions. So Duryodhan said, 'What a silly question you asked. Obviously, I'll pick the armies.' So Duryodhan actually fought with Krishna's army, and Arjuna and the Pandavas fought with Krishna. So we have to remember that the entire world seems to be fighting for Maya. We have to remember who is on our side. So the armies of this entire phenomenal universe may seem to be pulling us into our personhood, into our attachments, into our fear, into our pride. But if we keep remembering who's with us, who's our charioteer, who lives in our heart, then actually we have nothing ever to worry about, nothing to fear. Huh? Narayani Sena, Lord Narayana himself. But then Arjuna had two things. So he had Krishna, which was enough of course, but he also had Lord Hanuman Ji on his flag. So if you have Hanuman Ji on your flag and Krishna by your side, what do you have to—

Father, nothing to say after what you've said. No, no, no. Sorry. I didn't—

No, no, no.

The question, spiritual bypassing—no, no, no, no, no. I just—there is—I don't know how to say this, but I just wanted to check with you and maybe as a means of checking also. I'm kind of trying to validate something. So, like, last month I lost my job and I didn't write to you because I was kind of unfazed by it. And the reactions—like, it was a massive layoff and I don't know, I felt held, Father. I wasn't unfazed, and the replies were coming from a place of love even to the people and, you know, all of those interactions.

And then the pride comes and says, 'Oh, there you go, you surrendered everything to Father,' you know? Because you were unfazed, so therefore—

Yeah, and it's a big deal for people, but you are unfazed, right? And it happens to me because I keep looking at—it's not a 'checker guy' thing, but it's something that you hold on to to see your progress, I suppose. And we all do that, right? Like, where you are at. And we listen to you and then, like, once you deepen in God's love, this thing won't seem to affect you, these conceptual things. And every time I feel I have surrendered and I question my relationship with God and operating from a sense of love, all of those things, Father, this comes happily galloping behind. It comes every time, Father, every time. And I do understand there is this identity attached to being good. Yeah. The pride. Like, you know, during the dying moments of Ravana, when Ravana was dying and Lakshman was asked to get Gyana from him, one thing that stayed was like—it keeps playing in my head, Father. But I see the pride very clearly. Very, very clearly, Father. Sneaky, but it's there. And I just wanted to offer it to your feet.

So the sages have given us some ways to check because pride is the invisible killer, no? Like if the enemies of the evil have all these shape-shifters and all these temptations, all kinds of things, then pride is the one to be careful of because it comes invisibly, you see. And then invisibly it comes and settles inside us as if it is me, isn't it? So that is the trouble with pride. So then I heard from a sage: 'Just do you get irritated or angry? Then you have pride,' you see. So then when I heard that, I said, 'Okay, I have pride which is still left.' And if it was left to my mind, it would have said, 'Oh, you are super enlightened or something like that and you have no pride left.' So thank God for showing me, you see, because I can fool myself, I can fool maybe others also, but I can't fool God. So I want to lead a true life. To notice—so that indicator was very helpful, to be able to notice. Like if we are not unfazed in life situations, we can thank God more, but that's not a benchmark of our spirituality. The benchmark of our spirituality is time spent with spirit, you see. And if time spent with spirit is difficult to keep a check on, then how long are we taking God's name? You see, how long are we taking God's name? And many times what may happen is that we may feel that I can just be with spirit organically, I can just be empty of myself and therefore I'm just naturally in the presence of spirit, right? You see, so for those, they have to try for a day or a week to just take God's name constantly. Yeah. Because if you can do it organically, then to do it with God's name is the super simplest thing.

That's what I keep doing. I'm just like—

Thirteen thousand? I wish maybe it could slow me down. I don't—you have been doing a bit, you said?

I mean, it was conditioning, so obviously parents were doing so—

Some good things can also come. But so then what happens is that when we just Ram, then where is 'fazed' or 'unfazed'? There is no room for anything. There's really no room for making a judgment, either good or bad. There's no time. There's no room. It is so magma in Ram Ram. Then where is the opportunity to judge what is happening or not happening? So we become like that. Either I am praying—I mean, this is where I'm hoping to go to by His grace—which is that either I am praying and He is watching me pray to Him, or He is praying in my heart and I am perceiving that prayer happening. Then that becomes our life. You see, am I there yet? Of course not. Far from it. So, but that is the intention I'm carrying. That is the prayer I carry: that may my life turn into just this. Then it seems like I'm initiating, I'm taking the initiative, and He's watching, gazing lovingly at this child taking the initiative. And then when He says, 'Okay, now you rest, I will myself as the Atma pray in your heart,' and then all I am available to do is enjoy that. You see, now the strange thing is that I spent 50 years of my life just not enjoying that prayer. So then what happens is we make the project only then different. Then we are not like—what we want to do with our spiritual progress, people will only put us down. So you see, which in a way probably is a good thing to keep our pride in check. So what we want to progress spiritually for? Just to be at His feet, just to be in His presence. That we can do now. Now. The one who starts can do it now. The one who's doing it for 50 years can do it now. You see, so God is a great leveler. And when it comes to comparison with others, we have zero tools. How to compare? Can we—that one's own mind cannot make a report about their heart situation. How we will dive in and see what is their heart situation, how much they love God? You see, because the minute we come to His door in our heart, the mind has no entry over there. Perception has no entry over there. So the two means of gauging that we have, which is perception and conceptualization, both don't work for ourselves only, isn't it? So if they don't work for ourselves only, then how to judge others? So if I was to go to my intellect and say, 'Okay, what is Ananta's spiritual progress?' No idea, you see. But I find safety in saying that because I'm coming to these very simple, basic realizations at almost 51, that I must be a beginner. You see, if sometimes the heart speaks and says something about this boy, which it rarely does, then I may allow that to come out, but he doesn't say anything. So let spirit itself be the judge of spiritual progress. You see, we can't go to English class and get the marks from the math teacher. It's not possible. The mind is saying you're doing really well, but you went to the heart's class. Why is the mind saying you're doing really well? This is the absurdity of spiritual life. The math teacher has given 100 on 100 for your English. But for your math, no, zero. That's what happened. But I'm making light of it. But all of the spiritual warfare, if you want to call it that, is about this. Oh, what is Ravana but an embodiment of that? He is the child who got 100 marks for English from his math teacher and took that seriously. That's his problem. See how much trouble he created just with that. So if the mind calls you Maha Yogi, Maha Sadhu, Maha something, forget about it. Wrong subject. If you want to check, are you still getting angry, irritated? Then don't say I'm Durvasa and I'm so—just like the path of Neti Neti negation, it looks like that only. Our foolishness is fairly apparent to us if we look. You know, but our positive conclusions we can't make, you see. So say, for example, you take this example, let's take it a little forward: so I got unfazed by being laid off, okay? You see, so I can't spot any negative there. But can I make a positive out of it? No. That's what we can attempt to do, but we can't. No. Only spirit can make the positive out of it. I can't make a positive conclusion based on that. I may feel grateful. I'm so grateful anger didn't come. I'm so grateful I'm not resenting those who fired me. We may say that. So we may be able to spot the absence of resentment, the absence of pride. But can we really say that, 'Oh, I'm so spiritually evolved'? Possible. What is the basis? So where do we find that? We don't see our Antahkarana glowing with the light of spirit to be able to say, 'Now 99% done.' This—that's invisible to our mind, intellect, and to our perception. So only Atma itself can give us the report, and it won't because it knows how we are. Atma encourages us every step of the way. But at least in my case, I'm—thank God for that—that it doesn't say, 'Haha, you're good. You're done.' That's why I say there's still pride here. I've been working on it for what, one, one and a half years or something like that. The key is to spot it at irritation. If you spot it at irritation, you can stop it at irritation. If you feel like, 'Yes, yes, it's right,' only if you keep justifying your irritation, soon it's anger. That's why this—

But you said to empty the glass. Emotions have also to come up.

Yes. Yes. Empty of any conceptual grasping.

Yes, that's all.

So anger can come—

And leave, but not expressing then or not going in.

If anger is coming organically without any thoughts of righteousness, it's fine.

Okay.

But it won't. But it can. It's allowed to. But you tell me if it happens, okay? You tell me if it happens. Just observe that. So you have license, full license to be angry if you're not at all believing that you're right. Two different things. Two different things, no? One is you're saying that the emotion of anger should be allowed and it can come organically. The second thing is that the thought believed in—that 'I am right, this one is wrong about something'—these are two different aspects of our Antahkarana, of our soul, isn't it? So I am saying, okay, you have license for it, to allow it to come. You see, but you're not going to believe a thought that you're right about anything.

No, often it's some old stuff coming. Maybe—

Old stuff means—

Like, how do you recognize the oldness of it? Just by the emotional texture.

No, by the thought pattern, isn't it?

I'm not getting any more so angry.

No, it's good. It's very good. I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying you could look at it in any sort of construct.

So I am saying okay, you have license for it to allow it to come. You see, but you're not going to believe a thought that you're right about anything.

No, often it's some old stuff coming. Maybe—

Old stuff means?

Like, how do you recognize the oldness of it? Just by the emotional texture?

No, by the thought pattern, isn't it?

I'm not getting any more so angry.

No, it's good. It's very good. I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying you could look at it in any sort of construct. But I'm saying how do you recognize the oldness of it? Because you may recognize the same thought pattern which our mother used to use with us, or we used to use 50 years ago or 20 years ago. The same patterns repeating and us buying into them—that is how we recognize the oldness of them. So what I'm saying is that you're right that sometimes a lot of repressed things are there and they can be allowed to release, but 99.9% of the time we use that as an excuse to convey to others that we are right. You see? So I'm saying that allow everything to come, but not with any belief, not anchored in any belief system. You see, so when you get angry without thinking that you were right, then you can make a report about it. You see what I mean?

Yes. Yes. So what you may notice is that it—you see, it's that's saying now maybe, yes, I see that it is like that coming more and more.

Yeah.

I think now, is it prior?

But you'll find that all these—what in my case, and I should not generalize, but in my case what happens is that it washes over you. When it's a release, it just washes over you. It doesn't come and stay and linger and then, you know, perpetuate.

Yes, often even not in the mind but in the reaction, like sweating and—

Yes, yeah, that's what I mean. It just washes over us from inside. It touches everything for a moment. You see, so that natural process can be allowed and that is safe because before you can even—it's gone. It's like, you see? But when we say, 'But you're so wrong, I'm so right, you shouldn't have done this, you shouldn't,' then that doesn't wash over us. It comes and becomes like that. You see, like that. And that is the stupidest place. I mean, that is the stupidest place. I even heard MS Dhoni talk about it, like a sports person talk about it. He said, 'Have you ever heard anyone speak sensibly when they're really angry?' And no. Don't do it. You see, anger is one's sheer foolishness. We speak the most foolish things. So the first thing I've started asking people when they sometimes say, 'Okay, help us resolve something,' I say, 'Was what was said—somebody says, "But she said that to me" or "He said that to me"—was it said in anger or was it said normally?' You see, there's a big difference between those two because in anger we can say all kinds of nonsense, utter stupidity, isn't it?

Father, extreme anger like kept on doing, but he did not listen to—

Then what happened? He got angry. No. So because he came as full human and full God, then maybe to teach us a lesson or show us something. He got angry and said, 'If you don't now make way for me, no, then I will put my arrow in you and the world will be dried of all water.' Then the ocean came, head bowed down and said, 'Lord, what are you doing? It is your rule only that I'm following.' That's what he said, no? Basically, when he came, you don't know this. So one of the few times where Ram Ji left his humility was this, no? And he was just like in the vira-rasa. He was just praying that the ocean makes way, like Moses, like makes way, and then after a few days of prayer, it did not make way. So he took out his arrow and he said, 'Now if you don't make way, then you will be dried up forever.' So then the ocean came and said, 'But you have set these principles for me and you have told me never to break the principle of being water. You see, and now you are saying break the principle of being water. So now I'm confused. Should I follow what you told me then or should I follow what you're telling me now?' So in hearing that is when Ram Ji's anger subsided. Then he said, 'Okay, now I understand your predicament, but now we will not get you to break your principle,' which Narayan himself—like he didn't say, 'Me as Narayan has given you.' Narayan has given you, but you have to tell us the way out of it also. So then the ocean said all that is needed is that you make the bridge out of these simple stones; they will float if you write on them. You see, so the final resolution of it was not through anger even for the Lord himself. And we are not Ram, so we don't have the license. If we get angry, then the ocean would not have shown up. Huh? Ocean would not have shown up. So he had to play that Leela somehow. I don't know why. So only a few times, you know, like in Krishna Ji's life, he kept conveying who he really is throughout his life. Danced on the head of Kalia, killed Putana, did everything very, very apparently. Ram Ji did everything humbly, like with Ahalya, with Kaikeyi, with everyone; he was always super humble. The only few instances that I remember him saying something big like that was when that squirrel helped him and he petted that squirrel with love. Then he said that, 'My handprints will always be on the squirrel.' So the lines on the squirrel, that's why people say Ram Ji's handprint. So he told everyone, 'My handprints will always be on the squirrel,' which is a bit uncharacteristic of him to reveal himself in that way. And this was the one—one was the love example, one was the anger example. Very sure there are two or three times he revealed like that. You see, the last time probably was when Sita Ji said, 'I'm going, I've had enough of this.' So she went to her mother, and then Ram Ji then got really upset and said, 'I'm going to fire this arrow. It'll be the end of this universe.' And then Shiv Ji and Brahma Ji themselves both had to come and say, 'Okay, okay, remember who you are. You are doing all of this. You are doing all of it. All of this is your play and she's not gone anywhere, as you know. She's waiting for you. So just chill.' But Hanuman has told us very clearly that you cannot use any excuse of any of these stories. If you say, 'Oh, but Durvasa did, all the great sages did like that,' so then she said that, 'But Durvasa was able to bring them back to life also, no?' So till you have the power to bring them back to life, you cannot use your anger. She's been very clear about it. In fact, it was her clarity which really shone a light here on this for me because somewhere I was still making excuses for my pride, for this anger. So when it came in a Satsang maybe two years back or one and a half years back, then I really started looking at it and then, as is with God's mercy and grace, then for a few weeks the theme stays that keeps showing it from all sides how I need to look at it.

The same story with you can't—you won't have—

Good. We turned this off. That's a bit more. But be careful of the intellect which will try to divide and say, 'But what does the first part of Satsang have to do with this part of Satsang?' All the greatest sages, like Ananta was beyond—like I don't have the words to talk about her, but she has given these very practical pieces of advice also. So but our intellect will try to create duality in this. So as long as—like try—I mean I don't know how you will try, but if you have a lot of pride, you can't stay empty for long. So then it's just fictional that, 'Oh, I'm so empty.' What are we relying on for that report? That's what—so that which cannot go there, which has no insight into how empty we are, that one. So say math teacher, English marks. So we must not fall into that. If I'm very attracted to being right, I cannot be empty of my mind for too long.

Be attracted to it?

Huh?

Can't be attracted to me.

Attracted to the extent of falling for it. Let's say, like, would you call it an attraction if you've been able to just observe it for 10 years and not fallen for it? Then you would say you're not that attracted to it.

Is to get to the right—

Is to get to right knowledge.

To get to right knowledge, to get to ineffable knowledge. Maybe ineffability is the benchmark of rightness in this case.

It's a very important point that otherwise to get to right knowledge, read a good book. No, you just read a good book, get the right knowledge, done. Atma Gyan.

How? Like to really know it firsthand.

How, like an example?

No, I don't know. Okay.

Just as an example, I don't know. It's worth looking at because this is a very, very dangerous misconception in the modern world, no, about Atma Gyan. Because you say, 'I am attracted to Atma Gyan because I'm more intellectual.' You see, that is—you can read the pointers of Atma Gyan because you're intellectual, but you cannot meet Atma Gyan with your intellect. You see? So if you keep thinking that it is something that I can grasp conceptually, intellectually, it is not that. It's very, very—that Gyan, like knowledge capital 'K', is very different. Atma. So if you call it Atma Yoga, it's maybe better. The process was just to make you see also the limitation of these senses as you imagine.

Exactly.

It's on—like it's on—

Very simple process.

Yeah. So it's because for that, like so that you would figure out that—and it's spiritual pride is so tricky, so tricky, that somebody who, suppose a great mathematician, done some great work and I don't know what mathematicians do but postulated some major things and resolved things like that, then even they could come and they could do a simple five-step process: not this, not this, not this, and feel like, 'I'm being so intellectual by saying not this five times.' You see, this is spiritual pride. How it can just get us. Such a simple thing. Anything that is changing is not true. So first put the world, then put the body, then put emotion, then put—a five-year-old can do it. What is so great about it? You see, but the humility and the patience needed to wait in that emptiness, to abide in that emptiness for allowing Atma to reveal the true Gyan, that is what is worthy. Not the steps. 'Who am I?' What is so good—I mean, it's a fantastic process, but I'm saying what's so great that we are able to ask ourselves the question, 'Who am I? Who am I?' Even a child could ask the parent. The parent would say, 'Shut up,' usually because they don't know themselves, but a child could say, 'No, but who am I?' If they hear about somebody dying, they could say, 'Who am I?' They could ask this question. So a child can ask. Then what is the step? Then a thought comes with the answer. Ask yourself, 'Who witnesses this thought?' And then he's put so kindly, he's put one more step there: if the answer comes, 'I witness this thought,' then ask yourself, 'Who is this I?' again. Three steps. Simple booklet. Three steps. Who am I? But meet the practitioners of 'Who am I?' They're just like, 'We do self-inquiry.' Like, what you do? Oh, I just—if you just break it down into what self-inquiry actually is, it is a very simple process. Not some great mathematician or physicist or, you see? But the pride, spiritual pride: 'We do self-inquiry, we don't do all these God's names, we do self-inquiry.' What is there in that? Ask yourself who you are sincerely, that's all. You see? But what's great in that is then the same thing: if you are able to humbly, patiently allow Atma to reveal itself. The process helps you in becoming empty. Can you wait in that emptiness? Can you bear your emptiness? You see, if you're able to bear your emptiness for some time, then you're progressing. You see, but the mind cannot tabulate this.

Yeah. Just the eating part. The eating part. Can you bear your own silence, your own stillness?

Exactly.

But are we seeing that the pride, spiritual pride for self-inquiry or neti-neti—what is there to be proud about?

It just sounds very fancy, self-inquiry. Yeah. Sorry, I've just lost all spatial intelligence now.

Oh, maybe my ears are blocked or something.

No, but you said the emptiness.

If you can bear your own stillness for some time, then you're progressing. You see, but the mind cannot tabulate this. Yeah. Just the eating part. The eating part. Can you bear your own silence, your own stillness?

Exactly. But are we seeing that the pride, spiritual pride for self-inquiry or neti-neti? What is there to be proud about? It just sounds very fancy, self-inquiry. Yeah. Sorry, I've just lost all spatial intelligence now. Oh, maybe my ears are blocked or something. No, but you said the emptiness. It's the most pleasing aspect also, but also so hard because I constantly keep this from... because I feel this would be helpful for everyone. Yeah. So, Father, it's the most deeply, deeply pleasing part, but also the most hardest to be there. Like, it's deeply pleasing for my heart and my soul. And when I'm there, I don't like... there's nothing else that could be even, you know, close to important. But also so hard because I constantly, I see that I constantly keep filling myself up with some like the need to fill the Antahkarana up with something. Like it's just exactly just something like...

So when you're at the gate of the Beloved, it is deeply pleasing not just to our self, but God himself is celebrating that. And may I not be going too far in saying that, but I feel like it's deeply pleasing to God as well. You see, but the design of the mind, the design of the phenomenal world is to pull us out into the trap, isn't it? So just like Jerry Mouse thinking it's going for the cheese is actually getting trapped. You see, in the same way, when we continue to get pulled into that, we recognize we are getting trapped. And as soon as we recognize, we are just to return. We just have to return.

Yeah. Sometimes I feel like somewhere in me I can tell that like this is what I want more than anything, but and the outside is not so alluring. But yet there is a... honestly, like I feel like it's not so as much as this is alluring, but still there is like the tendency to keep filling it up, like keep getting towards it.

It's all our lives, you know. And so what I'm saying is I'm not denying the question. I'm just saying that I can relate to this. You see, otherwise I'd be fully living in God's presence constantly. That I don't because I want, you see, I want to be entertained. I want to see if India won the match. I want to help my family with money. You see, I still want. And because I want, therefore I don't leave it to God. You see, I don't rest to see what God really wants in this situation. You see, so all this want just gets in the way. So that is the project for all of us.

Some fear comes of being irrelevant.

Yes. Yes. All of this, "I want to be relevant." All of this can be this thing, relevant. But if we were to dive in and see, say, relevant for whom? See, I can't even find my own existence, how to see that others are there and then to be relevant for these? So when we look, we find. But it seems so real. It seems so real, this immersive environment seems so... actually, I don't even know whether I can see that, like what to compare it to. Does it really seem that real? Sometimes it just looks like a very absurd thing. These buckets, flesh buckets are walking around taking themselves so seriously. It seems very absurd also at the same time. So maybe the whole game is that, that Maya's design is actually to look very, very unreal and stupid and absurd and still fool us. Yeah. And the difference is so apparent for all of us, isn't it? Like when we come to God's presence and the love and the peace and the joy and the restfulness that we find there is not to be found with anything in the world. No matter how great sounding it is. You see, the best food, the best music, the best sensation, the best whatever, it doesn't offer any of that. You see, and even if it offers, claims to offer a glimpse, it's nothing. It's just tamas, you see. So and yet we keep choosing. This is conditioning; our grooves push us in that direction. So in spirituality, that's why we're making new grooves which turn us back to God. Okay, He's turning us back to God. So we don't buy into the narrative of the false "I," that is to create a new groove to God. We take God's name, that is to create a new groove to God. We break all these past conditions. You see, we've all heard these terms from sages like Bhagwan said, that conditions, to be free from them. You see, but we don't realize how they actually affect us. You see, they affect us by creating these grooves. This leads to me falling into that groove. Okay. So, somebody says... let's see what's a common groove. Somebody says, "No, that will be 200 rupees more." You see, and my groove is, "No, you're cheating," isn't it? So we fall into that groove. So why is that? How do we really know? We don't really know. Do we take the time to see how God is guiding us? We don't because it's a groove. So that's a simple example of a Vasana. You see, we have to be broken and we have to learn to fall into love, fall into our heart, stay there and not fall for these. You see, our mother calls, she says, "Oh, how long did you do Satsang?" She's very spiritual herself. But yeah, how long did you... it'll sound absurd to you for a 51-year-old man. I'll say, "Uh, one hour." You see, because I don't want that judgment, confrontation, "you should do it in balance." I don't want that. So, it's a groove. No. Am I waiting for God to guide me in that moment and saying, "Okay, you provide the answer"? No, I've already decided I don't want to have that conversation with her. No. So these are grooves. So these are grooves that we are all working on. We are taking God's name. We are doing inquiry and we're breaking through. So we must not get into any arrogance and we must not feel like there's some finality or some these things work. We have to keep at it, ever deepening. And every groove that you exchange for love for God, you find more love, you find more peace, you find more... that is the ever deepening. Otherwise, the ever deepening could not be, you'll be fully deepened. You're already always in the deep end. Be ever deepening. And that ever deepening is ever breaking out of conditioning, ever growing into love.

Yesterday when you had said that in the next three hours now after Satsang, you said in the next three hours can you be only with the name and try not to fall, you know, into your grooves at least in the next three hours. And in those three hours I saw so many of those ways of going into, you know, falling for it. And then not even falling but knowing that it's like calling me to go in that direction, you know.

Exactly.

And the name helped to not, you know, not go into it, but I was able to notice it. So I was almost feeling overwhelmed to, you know, that I was seeing that and just so much is there that if you had not put that lens, I would... I was not looking at it like that.

Yes. Then we just normalize it. Yeah, it becomes our normal way of life to keep falling into our conditions. And not like... people have a big problem with the word sin. But if you look at sin just as an absence of love, you see, then what we are basically doing when we fall into the groove is we are missing the opportunity for a higher love. Isn't it? Like I can treat a brother or sister or even myself with a greater love in that moment. But when I fall into a groove, I'm just falling into some history and learned ways of doing things. And that prevents a fresh meeting, prevents a fresh love. Isn't it? Exactly. See, no.

I was able to see that I was not able to meet the other with just love in my heart. I just was not able to meet. The mind was just like distracted. Even though I was... I kept saying the name, I wasn't going towards it, but it was so much distraction, you know.

But see, because your resolution was to stay with God's name, then all this came to light. Otherwise it just feels like this is normal and in fact you may even say, "But I was quite empty." Once this task is put in front of us to take the holy name of God, then as we are taking His name, then all this will be revealed to us. It's good. You have to keep at it. Then what I'm trying to say is that it's a lifetime project.

Already ineffable. Yeah. Say the "Who am I?" question, the answer to that is already ineffable.

What do you mean by ineffable?

I don't know. No, it's... ineffable means I know the answer but I don't have the words for it. Like everything we don't know is not ineffable. We just don't know it.

So it's okay if I want to know it. It's fine. Yes. This is the only want we talked about. Yes. Find out who you are. So to know, like what is the difference between a sage and the rest of us? Sages know, and they may not be... if you ask them, they may say, "I don't know," but they know they don't know in words. Or maybe they know in words but they realize the futility of trying to share it in words. So ineffable knowledge means there is knowledge but it's not yet articulated. That's not bad. That is good. That's okay. Just... it's okay. Actually that was a question at that point of time when you were showing Chaitanya, you know, the witnessing. You also spoke about the heart and the Antahkarana and Father, I wanted to hear that a little bit more because it feels like the Awareness knows itself always, it's unchanging, isn't it? Then what is happening in the process of self-recognition? That's a question, isn't it? Awareness knows itself. Yeah. Never unchangingly. It does not have a state that "I am deluded, now I'm coming to recognize myself." You see, so then when we talk about self-recognition, self-knowledge, Atma, then who is receiving it? You see, now this part is often missed out in the modern world. Awareness is coming to itself? Then awareness coming, going, recognizing, not recognizing... Awareness is unchanging. If Awareness itself got changing, that it forgot and now it's remembering, so change happened. Then what if the sages said that anything that changes is not that? No. So if it changed state from "I knew" or "I didn't know" to "I know now," then it's not that. Then we are fully stuck. Huh? So then for whom is the process of growth in spirituality, coming to self-recognition? Who is that? I said our soul has the capacity to fill itself up with the world, with Maya, or to fill itself up with Atma, which is God. And when it's filled up with Atma, it sees its own source where it came from. So the bubble sees the ocean or the wave sees the ocean as one with the ocean.

So the soul also lies as... what? No, also... sorry, the soul... it's okay. So in my deep sleep I don't have that idea of "I am" or any such thing. It arises, it comes, it has... emerges into the source in the sleep state. So in the known waking state, then you feel the arising of the "I am" itself. Do all the layers of the Antahkarana including the world arise? But from the same source.

So yeah, from the same "I" comes "I am." From that... remember we used to say in Satsang, "I am," right? Exactly. It's "I, I am." It's not the birth of another. It's the "I" itself am-ing. So it's never two. It is the same one with fist open or fist closed. There are not two hands in that. All layers arise, all the layers of our existence are like... the way I like to look at the Antahkarana is that I don't like to look at the world as outside it. So what you're saying is that within that "I am," all the layers of existence are within this I-am-ness. So when we were doing... it's just a conceptual way to break up the layers of our existence in terms of our faculties, in terms of our... just as a helpful device.

There are not two hands in that. All layers of our existence are like the way I like to look at the Antahkarana. I don't like to look at the world as outside it. So, what you're saying is that within that 'I am,' all the layers of existence are within this I-amness. It's just a conceptual way to break up the layers of our existence in terms of our faculties, just as a helpful device.

So Father, when I do the japa, I come to that same place of presence. And also when I do this inquiry, I see that I'm awareness, but when it deepens, I come back to that same presence and I—

It's enough to see the absence of person.

Correct.

And to wait over there, you see? So we don't have to rush into the 'I see that I am awareness.'

Not that you are rushing into it, I'm just saying again, suddenly you recognize that presence, that holy place. It becomes a part—I mean, I can't stay there if I want to, but it comes to me the same. And then only you feel like you're complete, otherwise you don't feel your resolve. I don't know why it's like that, but that's how it feels.

The reason why I'm cautioning against making the positive statement that 'I am that' or 'I am awareness' or 'I see even God's presence' is that the more we make it, the more it'll become a mental groove also. So the freshness with which you're saying it now may not be there tomorrow because if you repeat it a few times, then tomorrow somebody comes and says, 'Do you find God's presence?' and you say, 'Of course, I'm living in God's presence,' you know, like that. And then you'll miss the opportunity to fall into it and then speak from there.

Is it that you come out and then I can't say I'm living there? Then you're craving to go back, you're craving—

Correct. That craving is at least good, no? If you're out of it and you feel like you're in it, then that's worse. If you're out of it and because of a mental conclusion posing as truth we refuse to be fresh and look, you see? Remember we used to say that when I was a naive child sharing satsang for some reason, then I used to say when you ask the question—I feel like not you, but anybody asking the question—I would say I am doing the inquiry freshly and checking, but you're already moving to the next question, you see? Because you feel like you know what this is already, you see? So that's a disservice to ourselves. Like, how will the mental conclusion that 'I am awareness' help us just to be able to claim spiritual progress? It's all connected, isn't it? That I can make a positive affirmation of what I really am, you see, is for what reason?

Yeah, just like self-soothing sometimes.

You're fine, you know you are awareness, you're doing well—not like that. But mostly it's not like that, you see? Mostly it's just like, 'I'm making progress, I'm getting it, I know reality.' Again, the math teacher talking about Wordsworth or Shakespeare. So it's not that the Shakespeare in you doesn't know it. I'm not questioning the knowledge. I'm only saying that if you give it to Mr. Math Teacher, then he will make an equation out of Shakespeare. He will not keep the beauty of it. He'll make an equation out of 'To be or not to be.' Okay, I've rambled on and on. Isn't the word noise? The doctors are okay. Let's all pray for Amit collectively. He's just undergone a major medical procedure and the procedure has gone well. But let's all pray for his recuperation and well-being so he comes back home. Okay, thank you. Thank you. I didn't want to come. Okay.

Sorry, Father. I just couldn't hold it down on this last point that you said about it so much resonating, to not make it into a concept. Because it can't be like that. It's just obvious for all of us, it can't just be like 'I am' in the mind. But how about the other way where I find sometimes that almost after so much clarity or abidance, the mind wants to go back there immediately? Like just overdoing it in a way. There seems to be like a seeking active even in the practice that seems to override the greatness of God's greatness and just wants to see it again freshly and again freshly. It also feels a bit like an addiction there in some way. So that keeps the personal center point still in the doer, in the spiritual practitioner. You know what I mean? So I feel this is the other side of this claiming it. It's claiming it in a negative way. And it's like always wanting to see it fresh, like if you drank water, you would not want to always drink again and again because you got satisfied. But this seems to—I don't know if I'm conveying.

Yes. Yeah, I have a sense of what you're saying. Although I may not agree with the water thing because Jesus said once you find this living water, then you don't have to ever worry about finding water. It's just you want to just be in that. But you're absolutely right that if the mind is saying again and again to see that you are that, you see, I have not met a mind sincerely wanting its own dissolution. You see? So either there is something where it wants you to make a conclusion again and again so that mentally it can put up the claim that 'I am that' again and again. You see? Otherwise, a thief wanting to be caught is very rare. So for the mind to come to invite the emptiness of the mind, for us to go beyond the mind, is a very rare thing. So maybe there is some trick happening somewhere. I know about what you're talking about; it is a sort of a spiritual gluttony or a spiritual desiring, a spiritual wanting more and more, you see? And that can be personal in some sense.

So, if the intention is to offer up, if the intention is to constantly offer our heart, our everything to God, then everything—like Bhagavan said, 'puna puna,' again and again, again and again—we polish the mirror again and again, you see? And he never said that there is enough polishing, now stop. Again and again you polish the mirror. So, I would say that somewhere if it is becoming a mental motivation to do again and again, maybe it is finding some outcome in that, some juice in that to be able to make a claim or something like that. So if it is not a getting, we have to realize the spiritual process is not a getting more and more but an offering more and more, a surrendering more and more. You see? So some very subtle question you've got out, very good. It's a very good question. So for anyone who is getting caught in that sort of mental thing, we must see whether our spiritual process is offering ourselves up and emptying ourselves up for God, or feeling that 'I'm getting something more and more every time I'm doing, I'm receiving.'

Exactly. Yeah. And I feel it's connected with getting a state maybe where the body is clean of any influence somehow. That's what maybe hooks here, is where I really feel the body is light, expanded, and transparent in a way, and there's peace. There's also joy and love. So maybe that's where the getting goes, in the mind wanting to be again and again in that state, and then it acts like a possession in a way.

Yes. And that's why no matter what the practice is, what the prayer is, how long we've been at it, God does not constantly give us that sweetness and that taste. You see? No matter—it's not automatic. We spoke about this also some few weeks back, that we may do our end of it but the big work happens by His grace and His will alone. So that's why even great sages like St. Teresa of Avila have talked about aridity. St. John of the Cross has talked about the dark night of the soul where there is just dryness, where prayer method, sincerity, humility, everything may be high but we are not tasting that sweetness, we're not tasting that lightness. It may seem very heavy also at times. And at least in my experience, I have to say that there are many times where it feels just like nothing is happening and we are at it, but we are not at it for getting. We are at it as a reminder of offering, as a remembrance of His love.

So, yes, if that—I feel like if somebody is really afflicted with this tendency to try and get and get and get from God, God knows that and He knows, you know, no more—to quote a Seinfeld episode—'No more soup for you.' Uh-huh. You know, you can look it up if you—the Nazi there. So, thank you. God is not just—it's not mechanical. That's why I've been fighting this whole notion that it's a force field. You just go into that force field and you're teleported or something. No, He's the most intelligent being. Huh?

Yeah. Absolutely. And that's why I love what St. Therese of Lisieux and the Maa Shabri story show, you know, that they pray so that God may find some rest in them, not so that they may experience something.

So beautiful. It's beyond that. Thank you. Thank you for this conversation.

Thank you. I will take that offering. I will offer that. Thank you. Bless you.

Bless. Okay. Radheshyam Ji wants to say Ram. Ram Ji. Okay. Bless, Father.

Ram, my dear. Bless. Yes.