Who Witnesses This Spaciousness in Which All of These Appearances Come and Go? - 14th December 2020

So what is important to recognize is that contemplation, in the way we use the term contemplation versus how it is usually used in the world, is quite different. So in the world, typically when somebody says you have to contemplate this, usually they're saying think about this and come to some sort of clarity of thought about this. But when we look at inquiry and contemplation, what we're really saying is check in, look within, and not so much about coming to some sort of mental or conceptual clarity. Just come to that intuitive insight which will, in a way, dissolve all conceptual frameworks about this. So, just in our discussion, that is the response that is coming up from here. Anything that is coming up for you in response to this?

Just that, you know, sometimes it feels like the thoughts which are like contemplative thoughts are like coming effortlessly. It's like even I let, but the thoughts are like working themselves out, you know.

Yes, and that's fine. That's completely fine. That natural move is completely fine. But actually, all that we need, if we need even that at all, all that we need is one pointer or one contemplative thought, as you put it. Just one is enough. Like this starts like, 'Okay, oh my God, only God exists' is good enough.

But there's a lot of thoughts around that. Like there's thoughts which are like that thought is like negating all the other thoughts, you know.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And that process can happen quite naturally. So what is happening is that the conditioning of prior belief systems could be happening in this organic way. But the attempt must not be to come to some sort of a conceptual understanding because that will just construct a new conceptual framework. So as that deconstructive process is happening organically, just remember not to build a new house on top of that because that will have to be deconstructed as well. And Victoria is good? Yes, very good. Thank you.

Coming to satsang is a process of instant insight, intuitive insight available at any point of time, and a dissolution of all conceptual understanding. See, the end of conditioning is a dissolution of conceptual understanding, not to create a fresh spiritual understanding. And sometimes the spiritual understanding is helpful. Take a pointer and use that to clean up everything. And when I say use that to clean up everything, pick a pointer which is naturally doing that anyway, you see? Like you were saying that God is all there is is cleaning up all ideas of separation and identification and me and you and the world and myself. And all of these kind of divisions and separation can naturally be surrendered to that one master thought, and then the master can also dissolve the master thought. Good.

May not be pronouncing it well, more Anka. It's a short form of my name which is Unhappy. Something is burning inside and yeah, I'm trying to meet you not from now and not from emotional states reporting from the past or something like this. And I'm reading feelings mostly in a negative way, that's what I know. There's a lot of judgment for what should not be here or what should be. And what is especially, um, how can I say? I told you about that when I'm, as for example in the Zoom meeting or with people, that I feel a lot of stress. And this is, I know this for a long time and it's very regularly. And something, I'm just wondering if I should bear this feeling of feeling very uncomfortable in front of other people or with other people, or if I should look into this 'who' so who feels so stressed? Because it just seems like an identity which comes up so often and it brings so much distress. Yeah, and I would like to be free of this confusion when it's here.

Yes, yes. Okay, let's see if I can help you through this. One thing we can agree on is the one that is experiencing these feelings, that one has the right to complain about them, isn't it? Not a third party, not somebody who has nothing to do with anything. That one has no right to complain about the feeling, isn't it? The judgment on the feeling that is being experienced must belong to the one that experiences it. Yes? So that which experiences the feeling, what is that one's judgment about the feeling?

It doesn't want to feel the feeling.

And how do you know this?

I'm not sure. I just experienced a lot of stress.

Yeah, so suppose the feeling is like this, like this, like this, like this. Some feeling is like that, you know? And the experiencer of this feeling is who? Because that one can judge it, no? Yes. So who is that one who is experiencing it? Call it right now.

When you say it's almost as if I'm, there's only myself somehow. I cannot even find...

Yes, very good. So that myself, you see, that myself, what is its original judgment about this feeling? If you had to go to it itself without any intermediary or any translation, what is the original experience or feeling about this feeling?

The seeing itself has no judgment about the feeling.

Yes. And what about the being?

Yeah, it has no... the same, the same.

So the sense of beingness in which the feeling apparently seems to arise, that has no worries about this. That which is aware of even the being, of course, is completely unaffected and untouched by it. So this idea that the feeling should not be there, what is the source of that?

Yeah, now it just seems like I'm a single thought which is just floating.

Whose voice is that thought? Who is it representing? Who is the affected party here? The victim of the constriction or the feeling? The being remains untouched, no? In spite of whatever may come. Just like the space in the room; it doesn't care which furniture is put in the room or who are the people walking into the room or walking out of the room. Your being is just like that, isn't it? See if you can confirm this. And that which is aware of this room, that which witnesses this room of your being, that also is unaffected by what visitors this room has. Now, who is affected, if at all?

It seems that as if there is this assumption of a me, this identity which reshapes in this moment.

Now this me, can it be identified even as an object in the room? No, not even that, isn't it? Not even as tangible as this what we call the play of appearances, you see, which itself is illusory. But the me is a second-level illusion. How can we—doesn't exist—bring so much stress? In the previous statement from the Sufi master where he said you don't exist, that was the me that doesn't exist. The same one which but it seems to have these claims that 'this should not come inside the room,' 'this is my room,' 'this cannot come,' 'only this should come.' Better thoughts have to come, nicer emotions have to come, you know, better relationships have to come, more money has to come. Of course, freedom has to come. All of this, all of these representations belong to the you that doesn't exist. Yes?

So I'm going to give you a bit of an exercise because it can play out this way and this exercise has helped quite a few. When you feel like something is too much, you know, like the feeling is too much, just try to be the space in which they are appearing. Just try to be like the space. Then naturally you will see that you are aware even of that space. But sometimes the thoughts can be so compelling, it can seem like that we are not able to create some distance between what is appearing. So instead of trying to jump straight into our true nature, you can just play a little bit as the space in which it is appearing and you will notice that this space actually...

Too much, you know, like the feeling is too much. Just try to be the space in which they are appearing. Just try to be like the space. Then naturally you will see that you are aware even of that space. But sometimes the thoughts can be so compelling, it can seem like that we are not able to create some distance between what is appearing. So instead of trying to jump straight into our true nature, you can just play a little bit as the space in which it is appearing, and you will notice that this space actually has no boundaries, you see? It has no boundaries. And then very naturally, when it comes easy, then you can just check: who witnesses even this spaciousness of being in which all these appearances come and go? Okay, thank you. Oh, so welcome. Very good. I'm enjoying today's satsang very much already. Thank you, thank you. Okay, Rashmi can come.

I really need your help. You know, a lot of resistance is coming up and the mind is having a field day, and I'm not being able to stand back and just witness it.

Okay, can you give me an example of what you mean by resistance and the mind having a field day?

Resistance like even to listen to satsang. Yes, you know, and like I love listening, I could just love your satsang, but it's just... I really have to fight it out and come out and say, 'Okay, I really need to sit here now.'

Usually what I've seen is that this resistance can take one of many shapes, of course, but usual shapes are: 'Oh, I feel like I've understood everything that he has to say. He's saying the same stuff again over and over again anyway. What's the point?' You feel that kind of sort of arrogant resistance? Or there's also sometimes like a pointless resistance: 'What's the point? I go but I can't really do it anyway. And you know what, who is aware of the perception of this hand? When will I ever come to this answer?' Like that kind of resistance. Is it any of these or is it just a general like a boredom? It's so pointless.

A little bit of boredom. So I really... and it has started recently. It wasn't there earlier. It's just come up. I don't know whether it's because of sitting at home doing nothing or what, I don't know.

It's very natural. I have to say that many times there can be initial excitement about being in satsang and we can't wait for Friday or Monday to come and we're just looking forward to clicking in and, you know, joining, and it's so nice and blissful. Then there can be a phase where it can just seem like, 'I don't know why everybody's laughing or crying. It's quite boring. What's the big deal? It's the same stuff. And look at them pretending as if they're getting it.' You know, all this kind of resistance can come in one way or the other. And of course, boredom is a very fertile way to resist coming to satsang. So the good news is that you spotted it and you're still here, you see? So that is the good news. So that's good. What frustrates you the most in satsang? I've asked this question before and I can offer you some answers later, but maybe I can hear from you first.

Fresh, I am very, very with you in satsang. It's not that anything is happening during satsang. It's later. It's later that the resistance comes and, you know, I would like to go back and listen to the satsang again and all that is when the resistance comes. Like right now I'm very much here, I'm with you, there's absolutely nothing happening.

So if you are able to come now twice a week, Friday and Monday, then that is quite good enough actually. You don't have to trouble yourself by watching too many recordings and things like that. If it happens naturally, of course you can, you can. But if you're in a way getting into this kind of battle where the mind is saying, 'Go to Netflix and watch a movie,' but you feel like you should make best use of time and, you know, watch satsang, and this kind of battle, then sometimes just go a little easy on yourself. Because sometimes the battle itself makes it more difficult to watch satsang. If maybe you let yourself go a bit, then you will see that there may be more openness to watch more satsang. But just one hand should hold mine, which is in the sense that just make sure that you're coming to the live satsang at least.

Know that I'm very regular. Since October, I am absolutely here every time that we have satsang. I really need help on this, Guruji. Please just take it away from me. That's it. That's my prayer to you. Just finish me off, please.

What part of you still exists that needs finishing?

That's very difficult to answer. That's very difficult to say because I really don't know. I don't know, Guruji, whether I'm progressing or I'm just in a plateau or I just... I can't tell.

Do you know that you need finishing?

I do.

What is the basis of that?

You know, ever since this resistance came and the mind became active and all, I just... it was just like going crazy and I really started thinking as if there's something wrong.

Yeah, so now stop thinking that. Don't worry about that. I mean, you know, when I say stop thinking, what I mean is the thought can come but be no longer an owner of that thought. Like, who is this one anyway? No, if you were to become instantly free, who would be that one that would become free?

The person.

The person itself is the bondage, yeah? That can never become free because the bondage is like the chains are the chains; they cannot be the representative of freedom, right? So who is there? So if I had 100 grams of freedom right now and I wanted to give it to you, can you produce the one that is bound?

No.

Can you produce the one that is free?

No.

That is the golden secret. Take care. Neither bondage nor freedom applies to you.

That is so good to hear, really, because I started taking it absolutely off track and I thought I was just getting out of the way and just, you know, it was going crazy for me really. Thank you so much, so much Guruji, really. I'm totally surrendered and please, please keep supporting me always.

My dear, always. Thank you, thank you so much. Hey, happy to hear from you as well. Thank you. Namaste. Very good. Okay, Lian can come too. Namaste.

Hello. So I just wanted to check with you, and that was the feeling in the past days, like the thing became a bit blurry and yes, yes, yes. But at the same time, this openness right now is very, very here, very present. But it feels like, yes, there's still the feeling that some something has to go or be seen or transcended. No, but yes.

Yeah, that seeing which was clear, you have to throw that out. Then it can never become blurry. It's a very subtle thing I'm saying, you see? Because only when we determine that something is clear can something else in relation to that seem blurry. Openness, on the other hand, and use their openness, implies that this can come, this can come, it doesn't really matter, you see? Because we are not speaking at that level of clarity or blurriness at all, you see? We are not speaking at the level of change at all. We are speaking of that which is beyond all phenomena, beyond all perceptions. And can that have clarity or blurriness? So whatever state or idea of clarity you may have, just let go of all attachment to it.

I feel, and sometimes it's like there is something that wants to be free from negative emotion or thought rather than be free, be free, you know? Yeah, and it like makes a reading because a mind still comes or because in the dynamic some problem plays out, therefore there is no freedom. No, but I see it's not like that.

Yes, see, with negative or positive, it is a question of perspective. It's a question of interpretation. If I said to everyone who is on this meeting today that the ones who will experience the deepest frustration in the next five minutes, those are the ones who will be completely free forever, then as that feeling is coming, the mind is interpreting, 'Yes, yes, yes!' And what would we really say? 'This is what we wanted,' you see? So we are not looking at it as negative, you see? So what happens is that our ability to interpret anything as anything is unlimited. I wonder whether any of these words make any sense. Our ability to interpret anything as anything as consciousness is unlimited. That's why there's so much conflict in the world, there's so many arguments about everything, you see? Because everybody can interpret anything as anything they want and there's no limit to that, you see? So when we say negative, it's already an idea that this should not be. And inherent in that idea that this should not be, we have taken ourselves to be something that we are not. Because for what you really are, there cannot be anything that should not be. So I am happy you spotted this well because many times we can have this idea that really this is a battle about something, some perceptions which now have to stop showing up in my perceptual experience now that I'm coming to freedom, you see? But that itself is contradictory because freedom means that everything can come. Yes. And as long as you recognize that, just like I was saying to the previous friend, that you are the space in which all of this arises, and actually even more than that, you are aware of that space in which everything arises, then you are not so concerned, you see? Which flavor is coming? Is it good? Is it bad? Should there be more of this? Should there be less of this? It's only when you take yourself to be a narrative, a linear story of someone who went through this and then went through that and now he's going through this and now he's trying to become free from something, do those things still apply. But when you come to satsang, then all of this narrative is thrown out, you see? All of the narratives.

Yes, and so if one throws away like the image of how openness should be, that can be blurry or clear, and yes, there has to remain this, no?

Yes, yes. So openness is actually very simple, you see? Just open, you see? You open a window, then warm breeze can come, cold breeze can come, you see? The window is unaffected, the room is unaffected, you see? Anything can come. A bird can fly in or a bat can fly in, it doesn't matter. It's just open, you see? It's just that the one saying, 'No, no, you come, you don't come,' you see? 'I thought I'll open the window and only good things will come, only sparrows will come. What is an eagle doing here?' You see, this kind of idea is not there. Open means just open, whatever, whatever may come. Yes. And if you don't have an idea of what clarity is, then you won't have an idea of what blurriness is.

Yes. What would blurriness be like? And it's the attention like mixing with some story or some something.

Okay, the attention mixes with some thought. So then what happened?

Yes, all the time that's seen, but somehow it's like an hypnosis, no? Something feels caught up in that because the thought itself is saying that this thought should not come. The thought itself is saying that the attention should not get mixed up in thought.

Yes, yes, yeah. And maybe it's like that, a model of how things should be, because sometimes that creates some seeming conflict in life and like the mind uses that also to say, 'You see? You're making trouble, therefore you are not free,' and all that. But yes, it's from the beginning, it's all seen. Yes, there is no conflict in life. The only conflict is in our thoughts. Once you identify where the trouble is, then it becomes much simpler. Otherwise, if you feel like the trouble can never be in life or life can naturally, organically be troublesome, you see, then we have fallen for the trick of trying to fix things in the wrong playground. Yes. Openness is that open that you are not even concerned about openness. Is it? Yes. Now, if there is one there that could actually be affected by anything that could show up, you see, then of course my advice would be different. But upon looking, and all of you have looked for a long time, none of you have come up with that one. Yes. The way to be closed is to know something. The way to be open...

Troublesome, you see? Then we have fallen for the trick of trying to fix things in the wrong playground. Yes. So openness is that open that you are not even concerned about openness. Is it? Now, if there is one there that could actually be affected by anything that could show up, you see, then of course my advice would be different. But upon looking—and all of you have looked for a long time—none of you have come up with that one. Yes. The way to be closed is to know something. The way to be open is just not even... I don't know. Just not in the playground of knowing at all. Papaji said, no, to be happy you need nothing, but to be unhappy you definitely need something. See? And what is that something? An idea, a notion, some knowledge. Very nice. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good. Okay, Kate can come. There we go.

Oh, hello, hello. Yeah, yeah, looks like a very nice place. Where are you right now? Yeah, it is a very nice place. Um, it's at my friend's house in the Perth Hills. Yeah, they're really beautiful, beautiful people. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, thanks for the spaciousness. Um, yeah, I feel really touched by what people are sharing tonight and um, I felt like I wanted to um, meet with you again or check in with you again. Um, and I just noticed a lot of the timing or the resistance of it was exactly what's being spoken about tonight, um, about things that I would... that was being seen about what was arising, thoughts or images that I took personally. I was like, 'Oh my goodness,' you know? Like, it just created all this separation. And um, yeah, and now it almost seems comical, um, because just, you know, it's so funny because hearing one of the sisters say, 'Oh, she was...' Oh, I can't remember the words, but basically what touched me was this feeling of, 'I've been very reluctant to come to be in satsang, but it just keeps happening.' And I was reluctant to go to India and see Mooji and I was like, uh, like I'm gonna serve... I don't know, like I must have seemed totally ungrateful, but it just keeps calling me and it just keeps happening. And um, yeah, I just feel really grateful because what is being expressed through everyone's words is like, 'Oh yeah, that's exactly what is happening, what I'm witnessing and saying.' And um, yeah, I just think that that's such a shame that that separation could have been believed. And ah, just the relief that I can go... well, that we can go beyond that and not try and fix it on that level or be ashamed of thoughts or images that pertain to this being's person's story, because it doesn't matter, you know? And um, I just feel this thing that keeps going, 'I just want to go home. I just want to go home,' for years. And I thought that that was a place. And yeah, I'm just... I don't really know what it is. Like, I just guess it's just being discovered, but I just feel really, really grateful and I don't only understand why. Like, yeah. Um, yeah, and um, it's just really, really happy to meet with you and to watch you and Guruji's love and example. You were talking about Christ before and that's just really... I just feel like it's just such a gift to come in at this time, this year especially. So yeah, just lots of loving sensations of being felt here. Um, and yet that's not me, is it? It's just...

Yeah, that's such a sweet report. I loved hearing every moment of it. Very nice. Thank you. So welcome. Thank you, thank you. Okay, we have Peter with his hand up, but I don't see the option for Peter to have audio. You have audio, my dear? We don't hear you and it doesn't show the mic next to your name. Thank you. Ah, now it's connected. Yes, there it is. Ah, there you are.

I just... I couldn't raise my hand on the laptop. All right. Um, yeah, I just find myself caught in this, all this judgment around the person and entitlement and arrogance and self-pity and judgment. And I just, yeah, just... I feel like I can't get free. It's just so hard to, you know, I just... like, just feel like I'm in the mud and no matter what I do I can't get out of the mud. It's just like, ah.

I'm with you. I'm with you completely. And I have some very good news for you. News is that here and now, whatever the content of your experience may be, you are free. You don't have to trouble yourself to try and believe that because I'm not speaking at the level of belief. Your mind will immediately resist trying to believe it. So don't worry, you don't have to accomplish anything. I am just speaking from that which is your direct being. And sometimes it can feel like our words are not the best representative of our being. So sometimes that's why the master's words can really touch the heart, because they seem to represent our being more accurately than anything that we can fathom by ourselves. So I am aware that in your heart these words are being felt: that you are free without any effort. No matter what may be happening in the play, your very presence, your very beingness is unlimited, is unattached, is unconcerned actually. And all the stuck rules belong to a self-image and idea we have about ourselves. And as we are returning to this innocence, then all this self-image cannot survive. So if there is a self-image, then it is auspicious that it is getting squeezed. How will we return to innocence if that squeezing was not happening? So don't worry. Even these times, it can seem like it's so full of all of this stuff and where is the hope for me? I'm here to tell you that you are beyond all this already. And even all of this is only grace which is helping you, although it may not be immediately recognized. There is nothing that is attacking you as your reality. All that is being attacked is what you held on to as a narrative or a story about yourself. And grace is now showing you a deeper you, a further or more universal you, that is just open and allowing everything that needs to be done to happen. You try to hold on; we have tried to grip things strongly and life has squeezed, squeezed hard. So this is what my master called 'acid grace.' It can happen at times, but it's very, very auspicious. And as long as you feel like the Satguru's voice from within is not apparent, I am here. I am here for you, just pointing you to that.

You know, there's like such a strong belief like, 'I've got to go and fix all this, these perceived harms in the world.' And I just... I don't feel like there'd ever be enough time to do it. And it's like this weight of just like crushing, incomprehensible... you know, like I can't do it. Like I just can't, I can't make it all right. It's just so much to try and carry it. It's just like, wow.

There may appear a sense here that, 'Oh, there are seven billion people on this planet and everybody's suffering so much and you know, I should help everyone.' But it doesn't work that way. Right now, I can only help you. So it only works in this way. And the same way, if the feeling and that urge is there to help, you see, make the next person who comes... you come across, make them smile. Give them a big smile, you see? That's it. That's how you help. If you keep thinking of how big the challenge is and how so much is there to be done, it just paralyzes us, you see? If we say, 'Okay, this one, the one in front of me, what can I... how can I love them the most?' That is more than enough. So you don't have to get rid of the urge to help, you see, and fix things and any of that. But if you take on all of it at one shot, it becomes too much for us to manage. You just take one step at a time, one step at a time, and trust that grace is guiding your steps. So much love to you, my dear. All my blessings, and giving all that affliction be healed by my Father's grace. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You're welcome to come as often as you like and share as often as you like. Thanks. Okay, I'm going to jump into the chat in the middle. I'm going to start with the simple one. Father, did you say that Maya means also that which can be measured? Yes, what can be measured is Maya. Okay, most of this is answered, hopefully. Father, please help me to have more tolerance and compassion instead of frustration and self-righteousness when it seems as if people are projecting their minds and attacking me with their opinions. And remember that in that moment, if there is not tolerance and self-righteousness does come, then remember not to feel frustrated about that to start with, you see? Otherwise, it's a very vicious circle. So also be tolerant and compassionate about how the life energy is flowing through this body-mind. Become a little open about that. Don't be so, so hard on yourself. Then one says, 'There is resistance coming up in the body to even write these words. Last night mind stream was constant burning and such. Even now, today is the birthday of my father who has passed. I feel his darshan is being used. Two weeks ago you gave me a contemplation: Does awareness depend on the being to know itself? There is no answer to this. There is, however, a past experience of losing consciousness that is not letting this contemplation come to full fruition.' In that, you see, in that experience, don't take it as if it is negating the contemplation. Even to be able to say 'I lost consciousness' is actually the answer. It is actually the answer to my question. And see if you want to use this and if you want to come up, you can raise your hand and we can look at this. One says, 'When eyes water, what weeps?' Eyes, nicely. Many times I say, know that the tears are just the concepts melting. The concepts are melting in my head and the tears are coming out. What is I, I, I? Okay, we have a hand.

Hello, can you hear me? Good. I got new headphones so you could hear me. Looking much better now. This is working much better. Oh good, both of us don't have to like... what's happening? Exactly, exactly. So there's a lot of intense sensation right now in the body for no reason. I mean, it just is coming up right now as it is. It's okay. So the contemplation that you brought to me two weeks ago, I couldn't even grasp it to ask it. Like the words didn't even make sense to me at all. I had to keep reading it and it was: To be aware, are you dependent on being? Like, is awareness dependent on being to be self-aware? And I think I just... I was meshing awareness and being as one and so the difference... like, it's like the question makes it sound like there's a separation, like two things. And I think that's where there's confusion because when I... I've lost consciousness a few times in my life and when I lose consciousness, there's just nothing. Like, there's just I am nothing, but I don't know that I am nothing until consciousness returns, which is why the question was... it felt like we need being to know that there is just nothing. Does that make sense?

Yes, yes. But let's really look at this now. So it's like saying that there is a sense of existence, you see, and that sense of existence, it goes away, you see, and there's nothing there, just nothing. No? And sense of existence again, you see. Then if that was so, then how would you know that that state in the middle of the two sense of existence states, that state in the middle, that there was nothing actually happened? And that's the question I've been asking myself. So like, there must be awareness in that moment of nothing. There must be something knowing the nothing, but maybe it just can't express the nothing until there's something. Maybe that's what I'm confusing it with. The expression is not what I'm concerned about at the moment. So the obviously the infrastructure, as I call it, to speak and the expression in any way only arises in the presence of being and existence, you see. And we can also say, we can also only say that, 'Oh, existence and non-existence don't matter,' only within existence. So I'm well aware of the inability for any conceptualization and verbalization to happen unless there is a sense of existence. But at least that much seems to be clear to both of us: that to even be able to report so clearly that there was just nothing, you see, and who saw that there was just nothing? Not who is reporting, but who saw—quote-unquote 'saw' because it is not sight—who is aware that there was nothing?

So only say that oh, existence and non-existence don't matter only within existence. So I'm well aware of the inability for any conceptualization and verbalization to happen unless there is a sense of existence. But at least that much seems to be clear to both of us, that to even be able to report so clearly that there was just nothing, you see? And who saw that there was just nothing? Not who is reporting, but who saw, quote-unquote "saw," because it is not sight. Who is aware that there was nothing? Who was aware there was just nothing being aware?

Yes, and that nothing is the pristine you. And yet there's still something trying to understand the nothing.

Yes, well, we cannot. So either we can surrender it or we can wait for that one to be fully frustrated and burnt out. Either way, it cannot understand it. Right?

Yes, okay.

If it was that understandable, you see, what can we understand? We can understand very small things, no? Measurable things, things that appear and disappear. Now, if yourself turned out to be just one of those things, then all of this would not be worth it. If it was just something, "Oh, finally I got it." It's just that even to say nothing, actually, you see, if it is just a conceptual understanding of nothing, then it can just become, "Oh, nothing, then what is the point? It's just nothing," you see? But this is a pristine no-thing that you are. It's the most amazing, I don't know what to say, it's the most brilliant, you see, beyond anything that I have ever phenomenally experienced, beyond all that I can even imagine. Even the highest of the highest, you see, beyond that is the Self. And strangely enough, the mind's interpretation of that is just nothing.

And yet it's beautiful because it's like, almost like along the way, it's like there's just little blips and glimpses of what seems to be truth along the way, but it's still a graspable thing. And it's grasped, and then there's something else that's graspable. I don't want... maybe to help ease the mind into it?

Don't worry about the mind. If you don't worry about the mind for a moment, what grasps it? A thought, you see. And a thought can grasp it in between. Like, which thought can grasp it?

It's almost just like a sensation combined with the thought that's seen, and that can grasp that which you saw yourself to be when you were unconscious. No, that's not it. No, wait. No.

What? The content of the thought? No matter how sublime the sensation, that pristine reality cannot be grasped by it. It's just so... the mind can't grasp it.

And yet things are just happening, you know? And it's kind of overwhelming sometimes. Like, I'm not doing anything, but I believe I'm doing something. And it's like, but everything's happening by itself. It's like a game. Who is the you which is not the doer? It's just seeing. Like, there's no... there's still sensation that helps grasp it, but it's still seen.

Yes, but who is the you that is not the doer? Just here. Like, there's no answer. Because what has happened is that—and it's very popular in Advaita, actually—that you can say, "But I don't control anything, I don't do anything," but we're still referring to ourselves as the non-existent one. And obviously, the non-existent one can't do anything, nor get anything. So that reference point goes away, you see? Okay, that reference point goes away, and then what remains? There's just nothing to do. Then there's no seeker. So as a seeker goes away, then what remains?

Noticing sensation.

So suppose the sensation also went away. Sensation also went away, which it will. Then what remains?

Just here. Now, I don't know if you can walk with me. Now, here. Suppose this "here" also goes away, then what remains? I don't know. There's just fear, sensation in the chest that could be seen as fear.

Yeah, it's important to come face to face with this fear. It's there. Who is hurt by it, affected by it?

No one. It's just there. I've been avoiding it my whole life.

Yes, but it's just sensation. Yes, yes. In a way, that is symptomatic of the entire human condition. All of us have avoided this fear: the fear of the unknown, the fear of death, the fear of nothingness, the fear of dissolution. And the fear is that the fear will keep me from that. That's how it plays. But even now, you are aware of that fear?

Yes.

How big is the fear in relation to you?

It's not taking me over. The personal words... just there.

Yes. Do you feel like you could become actually okay with it being there?

Yeah, it's not so bad. I was fearing the fear, and that was making it worse. But it's just sensation.

Very good, very good insight. Thank you. Because this is the number one in this play of the human condition. This fear, this wobbliness, is the most potent distraction away from the simple self-recognition. Now, that which is aware of this fear, what can we say about that?

Nothing. It's just ever here, ever present.

What can appear in this realm that can make a small scratch on that awareness? The tiniest little bit to scratch?

Nothing.

The biggest fire came. Biggest fire, won't that burn it a bit? A little bit? Sharpest knife? Sharpest knife? I don't know. Big tsunami? All the water in the world? Then somebody was just asking, "What's so amazing?" You know, what's so amazing about ourselves? Isn't this amazing? The strongest forces in the universe can come and try and attack ourselves, but the Self cannot be scratched even a little bit. Timeless, deathless, worthless. That which is before I Am. That which is untouched through this entire play of millions of lifetimes. All these universes can come and go in our realm of perception. Millions of dreams we have had, but the Self has remained untouched. What can be more magnificent, more innocent, more pristine than that? Very good. Thank you.

I'm just enjoying today's satsang very much. One says, "Today I want to say Father to you." I don't know why exactly, but to see that you are not Ananta, the name. I see you being it, what must be myself. It urges to somehow want to express this to everything and everyone in this. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Father. Now with confidence it can be said, if I have to go earlier to work here, gratefulness it is. All my love.

Such a beautiful report. And this Father is definitely not this man or this boy sitting here called Ananta. It's your own presence, your own beingness that you are referring to, your own Satguru presence. So this Ananta just accepts these words in service to our collective Father. Thank you.

Is the spiritual path like running on a treadmill?

Yes, that's why I offer no path. Okay, okay.

She told me just the other day that it's not Leela, it's Layla. How do you say? It's Lila. Can you hear me? Like my good microphone right now? Um, yes, yes. Okay. I feel like this is going backwards from what Keisha just spoke, but I told you last time that I'm having this fear of death coming up so strongly. And what she spoke about... well, one thing, and I've been listening to a lot of videos, yours and others, about fear of death and dissolution. And one thing that's always brought up is deep sleep and, you know, how you somehow know that you slept. And what Keisha was speaking about, having lost consciousness and there's something that knows that. But somehow I've had those experiences and what's coming for me is that usually the only way I know is someone said, "You were out for three hours." Or I've had anesthesia where it was just after I found Guruji. So I thought, and I was listening, I thought it'll be nice to go under, but it was very disconcerting because when they put the needle in, I saw the nurse's face, and the next thing I knew, it was as if there was no gap between going into the anesthesia and coming out. Like no time at all. And it was like, wait, I didn't know I existed. They were doing five hours of surgery and that was gone. And so that's kind of... I'm trying to grasp what it means to know, because I don't know if I would have known if there was no clock or nobody saying you were gone, you know? So I just... I don't know. I don't want to step backwards and thought maybe I should contemplate it.

Well, but first you have to tell us whether you went to the doctor.

No, I did go and they couldn't do the test, so I'm left... it's nothing going to be resolved very quickly. So I guess that's something I'm going to have to live with for maybe a few months before I have any answers. But I guess that's Guru Kripa. I guess that's the uncertainty. But yeah, so...

Yes, on this consciousness thing. Now, I have to admit that in this life I have not had this experience of what is usually called losing consciousness, so maybe I'm not able to directly report on that. But what Keisha was saying is that she was aware of the gap where there was nothing there, and that's what we picked up on. But we don't have to go that far, actually. Like, we can just look at our sleep state, our deep sleep as it is called. And what happens? So, what time did you wake up this morning?

Well, that's another thing is I have a sleep tracker that tells you what stages of sleep you have. And for me, I guess when you get older you have less deep sleep, but it's very short according to my tracker. Like, the deep sleep is only like an hour a night maybe at most. So I know I'm aware of the light sleep that I'm there, and that seems to correlate to me with like the beingness is there. I'm not necessarily dreaming, I'm not necessarily... there's not necessarily a person there, but there's beingness. But as far as the deep sleep, I'm still... I'm difficult that way. Like, it doesn't... I'm not sure.

Do you know that this is the most amazing thing? That there are many yogis in India and sadhus who are trying to come to this state where only the being is there and there is no other perception of the world. And every night you're having this experience, you know? It's amazing.

That's true. That's very nice already. Yeah. And I don't know if it's just a thing my mind is using because I know that like I've been in the state also of when I was a child, almost dying after a surgery. Lost a lot of blood and had a terrible operation that didn't go well. And I was very afraid of death before that. I still am. For a short time I was not afraid of death because it was only like the beingness state. It was right before the doctors came and put me back together. But at that time I knew that I could die because people were saying... I just knew it. But I didn't mind. I was in the state that like, that's okay. It's okay if I do. So that's as far as I've come to being in that state of beingness. And really, not until I found Mooji I realized that that wasn't just as a consequence of losing blood, it was the actual beingness because I felt it again when I listened to him. So I knew in a way if I'm in that state, it doesn't even matter. Even if there is annihilation, I don't mind in that state. So I feel like maybe it's just a mind trick to keep me frightened and keep me concentrating on this instead of going there. It's like, I don't know that it would be that bad.

But yes, I guess so. Just so, in the contrast between sleep and waking that all of us are aware of in one way or the other, otherwise our experience would just be waking, then suddenly the waking changes—like almost what you were saying about losing consciousness. "Huh? How did I get here? It was 10 PM and suddenly it's 7 AM. What's happening?" you see? But it's not like that, isn't it? You notice that there is a waking up, and we are all aware of this experience that we call waking up, you see? So, and we see, and it's so intimate that we call it "I woke up." And yet we are aware that I woke up. So this I Am-ness or beingness that wakes up, who is aware of the waking of that, you see? And to be aware that something is waking up, that witnessing must be present even before the waking happened, isn't it? Otherwise you could not say, "Ah, now it is waking up."

So I guess I tend to feel like it's the being...

That there is a waking up, and we are all aware of this experience that we call waking up, you see. And we see, and it's so intimate that we call it 'I woke up.' And yet we are aware that 'I' woke up. So, this I-am-ness or beingness that wakes up—who is aware of the waking of that, you see? And to be aware that something is waking up, that witnessing must be present even before the waking happened, isn't it? Otherwise, you could not say, 'Ah, now it is waking up.'

So, I guess I tend to feel like it's the being. The beingness is already there even before the... well, I guess it's when the person starts talking like, 'Oh no, I'm awake,' the person is there. But it feels like the beingness was there through even in the sleep, maybe dreaming, before I wake up. But then, how would we say 'I woke up at this time in the morning'? What wakes up then?

Yeah. Well, the perception of the world and my... mostly if it happened here, I would say that, 'Ah, the world woke up' or 'the perception woke up,' you see? I would not be able to say 'I woke up.' I'm kind of lost if, as you say, that sense of being was there and suddenly things start to light up a bit and, you know, the perception starts to show up. This is what you're indicating now?

Yeah.

So, but the thing is that if that was the case here—and you have to tell me how it is there—then I would say that, 'Ah, the world wakes up,' you see? I would not be able to say 'I woke up' on that basis. And yet my experience is that I am able to say, 'Ah, I woke up at 7:00 AM this morning.' And many times it happens that I wake up like you were saying, that the sense of being wakes up, you see? I notice here that the sense of being wakes up, but I'm not yet in the mode of perception of this world, you see? I don't even know which body this is. Everything is blue and suddenly I am awake, but I don't know whether this is a male body, it is a female body, which universe this is. I don't know any of these things.

Yeah, that's a very enjoyable state, actually.

As you experience more and more of this, you may start loving that, you know, because it's full of so much potential and wonder. So that is very joyful. So maybe you want to experiment with this a bit and we can talk again. When we talk like this, what you could experiment with is just, if you could—and you don't have to beat yourself up if it doesn't happen, it's just so fun, yeah, we're just having some fun together—so if you could notice the first moment of waking, you see? The first moment of waking: what just woke up? What just woke up? And there's no real way to do this, you know, just grace if it happens. Like, you cannot in the first moment of waking say, 'Oh, I decided.' But just carry this intent a little bit with you and see if it happens that way. Because that exploration of what wakes up, you see, when we say 'I woke up,' is a beautiful one. And it could be in the middle of the night if, as you say, you experience one hour of deeply... even the most of the other time you're just in this very yogic state of just being without there being aware. So then you could notice even that. It could be that whenever you notice that you are, okay, whenever you notice that you are, just check: what just happened? What woke up? And see if it is just perception, if it is just the world perception, or if there's something more primal than that. Okay?

Yes, yes. Again, just playfully. It's just playfully, no, not nothing serious. Okay, thank you. I was embarrassed to ask the question because it seems so clear for most people, but it's been such a... I mean, I feel still sticky about it.

But I think it's... I don't know, because I can't... if I could just tell it to you then I would, but some of these things we have to just, you know, we just have to see with our own insight. And that's why I give you this little bit of exercise and let's see how that one goes, yeah? Okay. Especially when we're talking about the arising of being, that being is actually prior to time and space, so it's very difficult to really put in words.

I feel like usually when I wake up, I feel like there's already a 'me.' There's already the person that doesn't want to be awake. There's already the one that's... no, already that one. So it's hard to... I feel it's quite rare that I wake up in that state of...

Yes, but what wakes up is the question. The question we are asking is: what really wakes up? And is it, again, like you said—you made one, you took a stab at it—which was to say, is it the world perception that wakes up and that's what I call 'I woke up'? But this we can validate a bit and see whether this is actually like that. Okay? Okay, thank you. If you don't mind a little bit of homework, that'll help the conversation.

I'll try. Okay.

And there are no grades, so you don't have to worry. Okay? Thank you.

Hello. Hello. How are you, Father? I was not expected. I was not expected. I wanted to speak with you and actually, I don't know what about. Same thing every day. No, I want to speak with everyone, but I don't know what about. And I'm smiling a lot more about that than you are because it seems like it feels also like there is something, but when I look into it, I cannot find anything. But I'm maybe... I'm in the states. So, yeah, I don't know. I wish I could find something.

That's the story of the seeker. I know you might... you said it in a different way, or the seeker is also hoping to find something instead of nothing, you see? But I'm telling you that if we, after all the spiritual search, at the end of it, if we just found something, that would never be satisfactory. The search has to come to an end at nothing, because that something would just be another something.

Father, may I say that I also today I feel like this: I don't feel like a searcher anymore. I don't feel like I'm searching anything. It's like I'm just... I'm with you. Just this. And I'm just with you. It's like an unseparable thing for me, you know? It's not like... yeah, I don't feel like I'm searching anything. But things are happening, of course, and sometimes I look more deeply, but it's all just happening by itself. I mean, there is no forcing about anything. Of course, I'm chanting mantra because I love it, or all these things happening. But yeah, I don't feel like I'm searching, I'm looking for something or like this. But like, my being in satsang is just... I belong to satsang. It's like this, you know? I... yeah, I'm separate... I am unseparable from you, from Guruji. It's like this. No 'buts.' 'Buts' are just about dynamic life, but it's also not so much. But yeah, I mean, yeah, they are not touched so deeply somehow. They couldn't... they don't have that power anymore. Yeah, this is why I'm confused, because things are happening and it's like it has to... they have to, you know, like they have to shake me because it was like this. But they don't have that power and really, I have confusion about this. I don't know.

For confusion, there must be meaning, no? Like, in the sense that, can you be confused without knowing the meaning of anything? So, okay, let me spell it out a little more. So there must be a few things that are known, you see, and they seem to have some friction among each other, and that is what is usually called confusion, you see? Then what happens is we talk to somebody who we think is wise, and that wise one gives us another conclusion which seems to put to rest the friction between that which we think we know, and we seem to... our intellect seems to come to a rest, you see? Now, what if what we are talking about did not belong to that whole game at all, and it did not have to clarify? Nothing had to make sense. There were no opposing concepts. All of that dance, if it wants to dance, it can dance, but it does not make me confused. It can confuse itself if it wants, you see? The mind is welcome to make itself fully confused, but it has nothing to do with my reality.

It's this, Father. And if it becomes like this... so if there was a meaning in the previous report, which is that 'but I see all of this and but I seem to be quite free,' you see? And yet you see like this, you see?

So don't worry about any of that. Don't worry about what anything means, and don't worry if it is meaningless or meaningful, because your reality is much more meaningful than any meaning that we can make out of it, you know?

Father, it's like everything has crushed here. What I mean by this, I don't know. That's like dramatically...

Be confused without knowing anything. Can you do it? And I'll make it even more difficult: confused and only know the truth. Can you do it?

Again please, last part?

Yes. Try to be confused while only knowing the truth. And it will point you to that which we think we know, but it is not the truth. The truth has no ability to cause confusion.

Father, it's like I don't know. I can relate and it's like... it's almost like I'm in the experience of what you are saying.

Yeah, okay. But what I was saying also that, like, this world has... has losing its power, its importance, and it's... I don't know, it's everything for me. So like, this world is for what? And also I'm just so much enjoying it actually, not like before. Just too much fun. But like, I don't know, it's not something that I'm used to, this feeling, you know? This world just turned into nothing and I am like... yeah, not confusion, but it's a... yeah, new feeling for me. Yeah, it's nothing anymore.

If the world turned to nothing, you see, then obviously for the 'me' it is going to be not just confusing but very scary, you see? But the good news is that as the world is turning to nothing, so is the 'me.' Yes, Father. And this is what is happening. The one that has to deal with the dissolution of the world has no trouble dealing with it, you see? But it is not the 'me.' The 'me' is just trying to hang on, saying, 'How do I deal with this stuff?' No, no, you're going to... so the one that is getting confused by the dissolution of the universe is going along with the universe. Is going along with the universe, you see? It's like it's trying to hold on to the spaceship saying, 'No, no, I'm coming with you. I'm trying to understand what's happening here, but it's a bit confusing. Help me.' And the Master is saying, 'No, no, you go. You don't have space in this.'

I don't know. This feeling is still alive and I don't know what is this feeling.

But that's it. That's it. So till you don't know, then don't accept any claim that the mind will make on that feeling, you see? Allow it to be crazy. We don't understand what... that's fine.

It's not like crazy. It's like this... I'm going to put that shape now.

Yeah, exactly. It can be full of wonder, it can be full of all of this. And yeah, I don't even understand what we are speaking now, but I've never understood. These words just come up from somewhere, they are spoken, and you also enjoy them and you come back again and again. I don't know why. No state is any trouble in itself. It's only an idea that it must go or there must be more of it or any such notion around it which can be troublesome. But if there's no such idea, then we don't even know it's a state. What's the state? I don't know what is the state. It is words, stage, mate. So you forget the term 'state' for today. I want that word as Guru Dakshina for today.

Okay, I forget it. It is here.

Replacing... replace 'state' with 'God.' So what is here? You are here. So replace everything with God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God. Father, it is already so. God, God, okay? He is to do this experiment, no? And if Amba is still here she'll remember, but in Bangalore one time in satsang I said—Gopala will remember also—I said, 'Don't say "me" for one week. Just replace every time you're going to say "me," say "God."' And initially it can sound a bit arrogant, but it's a beautiful exercise. No, it's okay, it's okay. I'm not that way to police. Okay? Yes, it is how it is experienced recently actually, what you are saying. Yes, yes, yes. We have focused a lot in our lives, you know. The life of seda obviously is a lot shorter than...

She'll remember, but in Bangalore one time in satsang I said—Gopala will remember also—I said don't say 'me' for one week. Just replace every time you're going to say 'me', say 'God'. And initially it can sound a bit arrogant, but it's a beautiful exercise. No, it's okay, it's okay. I'm not that way to police. Okay, okay. Yes, it is how it is experienced recently, actually, what you are saying.

Yes, yes, yes. We have focused a lot in our lives, you know. The life of Sita obviously is a lot shorter than this Samantha body-mind's life, but from whatever we've experienced so far, we have focused a lot on what has been experienced. Now, in coming to satsang, we're changing the focus to what experiences, you see? What is aware of the experience? So, as you're settling into that, then the content of your experiences may start to seem a bit strange or different, or some states or not states, whatever may come. But all that can come and go, you see? What is most important is what is aware of all of this. And is that touched? Is that affected? Is that giving meaning to any of this? No. And is there a 'you' which is dancing around in the experienced, in that which is experience? Is there a 'you' there?

If there is even this is something...

Yeah, but there isn't. There never can be, you see? There never can be. I mean, it's like it's also appearing with the experiences. With the experience, you are never an object, you see? You are never an object. As much as consciousness may try to take itself to be in this game of existence that it is playing, you see, it can never make itself truly objective. And only objects are affected by other objects.

Further, like the old way of being has dissolved. I don't know where now.

Very important. If the old way of being is dissolved now, don't make any new way of being.

Thank you.

Yeah, very welcome. Otherwise, that new way of being will be the old way of being which will have to be dissolved. So, no conclusion, no confusion. No conclusion, no nothing. No left, no right, no up or down. None of this stuff, okay? This was very confusion that gave that place where the game happens. Between confusion and conclusion, there is nothing worthwhile to be found there. Only worthwhile is in the heart. Only worthwhile is your holy presence. Did you hear somewhere that my job is to clear confusion? Major misunderstanding about Ananta, no? The more confused you are, the better it is for me.

Yes, I heard this from you.

Because you're willing to let go of that which causes you more trouble. If it gives you a sense of security, we are not so willing to let go of that. So whether you're fully confused, it's like you have dissolved everything. Yeah. Are you sure or confused? Are you sure about that or confused?

I forget what did I said, but you are speaking such a place within me. It's just... and I'm so happy to give it to here. Thank you, thank you. It's like first time I have met you here and thank you for bringing me here. Thank you, thank you.

Mm-hmm. And as you are the move-move policeman or the fresh-fresh-fresh police, you should do that exercise one day. When I have a bit more energy, we'll do this thing. Then next one says: 'Is it enough to know nothing? I feel that if you know nothing, then it's still something. Don't even know that. I feel that the realization or clarity of truth is a kind of knowledge.'

Yes, it's a kind of knowledge, no? When we end up knowing nothing, then it becomes a knowledge. But when you know nothing, then that is true knowledge. Yeah, but you know nothing or something?

I don't know. It's a sense of being. I feel like this sense of being.

So it's okay. Yeah, the sense of being is always there, but it's like I'm meeting it for the first time, which I always have. So I thought that sense of being wakes up that which is always there, but it's met fresh like that. It sounds very nice and confusing to me. Yeah, I love it. I know this sense of being, you're very there. Yeah, when you ask this question, I was thinking who really wakes up? Because I have a feeling that when I wake up, I know I wake up. And I was thinking that... so it occurred to me this sense of being, being here, being is different. This sense of being is different. When you say 'cooler', do you mean just much more relaxed? So you mean it's really cool?

Try to apply whatever you are saying to my problems. That's a different part.

Yes, I mean, I don't know which problem you could apply what I'm saying. Not possible. The... what is it? The hard problem of consciousness? You missed that, Sita. Okay, I feel like we are done. Yes, let's see if my browser decides to show up. I've got some links also, some requests to play, but okay, let me try and click and see. It is refusing to open any link on my computer. So you can sing it if you like. Who wants to sing? There was that one and there was another one, no, that you were enjoying a lot? Come on, let's... features, you see, giving lyrics.

Is Sita on both sides of Gopala at once? On both sides? Or does she have an identical twin? Yes, it's a twin. He would have checked his computer settings. Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. Beyond. Let's see.