What Is There About You Which Is Independent of Perception and Thought? - 4th December 2020
Saar (Essence)
Ananta guides seekers to recognize the truth that is independent of perception and thought. He points toward the unchanging reality that exists even in deep sleep, beyond the non-existent identity of the person.
The identity itself cannot not identify. Who must the master be speaking to?
Everything that comes and goes is not real. That which does not come and go is the ultimate reality.
Discover that which is beyond these two modes of knowledge: perception and thought.
intimate
Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.
Guru Kripa Kevalam. Namaste and welcome everyone to satsang today. Satguru’s... good, very well sung. Weekend, few years ago now. Sahaja, there's some questions in the chat. Ah, actually once said, uh, Mayu—no, Mayu said the sound is perfect. I read through your email, my dear, thank you for that. So you kept the speaker away and it seems to be working well. Okay, first question is: 'So much gratitude. I would like to check one thing with you. I feel that believing or not believing a thought is also not in our hand. It happens automatically. We are just witnessing of the believing happening. As in the morning, in a half-sleep state, I try many times to not believe any thought, but it just happens. What to do?'
Now we are stuck. All the masters have said what to do. This is a great mystery. Bhagwan said the only choice you have is to not go with your stream of thoughts. Papaji said don't stir the thought; you can do it. Guruji says don't identify, don't log in. I say don't believe your next thought. So something is amiss somewhere. Well, the master is telling you to do this stuff. If you just can't do it, how to unravel this mystery? It's actually simpler than we may think. What if you are not who you believe you are? So when you say, 'I feel that believing or not believing a thought is also not in our hand,' which 'our' is this? Which 'my'—let's see, 'my hand'—so which 'me' is this? So that which is the outcome of belief, that means identity or personhood, obviously that cannot have control over it because it itself is made up of belief. Our identity, our ego, is made up of all the things we believe about ourselves. So that which is itself belief obviously cannot have the power of belief.
So instead of giving the answer, I feel like having some fun a bit. So what must you be that you could have the power of belief to believe or not believe? That all the masters keep saying the same thing—either the masters must be very deluded, very confused, or there must be something more to it. So is there a possibility that you are beyond what you believe yourself to be at the moment? And of course, for that one, you see, which is non-existent, you see, has no tangible reality of any sort. So for that which doesn't exist, obviously it has no power. What can I do? You see the little boy sitting here? What can it say? Sitting right here, no, on my right. What can it say? You say there is no such boy. You see, can I believe his thoughts or no? He said, but there is no such boy. In the same way, that which you take yourself to be, there is no such thing.
So what is real? What is actually existent? Does that consciousness have the power of attention and belief? And therefore, when the masters say that satsang is consciousness speaking with consciousness, it's actually a monologue. That is what they are talking about. You see, the identity itself cannot not identify, no? Guruji says don't identify. Is he talking to the identity? How can the identity do that? It's already identified. So he could not be speaking to the identity. Who must he be speaking to? So this is worth exploring, and we'll explore some more in terms of how to come into a deeper recognition of what we are, so that these kind of questions then become a bit distant from us. Because this is a very common question that I get. Over the years, I've got it hundreds of times: 'But Father, you tell me not to believe my thoughts, but I can't do that.' Then it is important to ask: 'I who can't do that?' And we'll ask that in just a moment.
I just want to see what the other question is also like. One says: 'As I continue to deepen, there is an urge for what Guruji calls higher company. The old connections are not as fulfilling as they once were, and yet there's a thought that says seeking higher company is judging those in your life now. I need guidance with this. Part of me feels I'm staying in a place of familiar connection because it is comfortable, and the other part of me doesn't want to abandon and judge. Why is fear holding me hostage?' Okay, when you say there is an urge, you see, so an urge for me is deeper than conceptual, okay? Like there is a—we could say there is a desire, but there is a difference between urge or longing, at least the way I use the terms, and the term desire, isn't it? Now what is the difference? A desire is of course very judgmental, interpretive; there's an idea about what is better for me, you see. But when we say urge, how is that different from a desire? There seems to be a deeper intuitive calling to something. It seems to, if it truly is an urge, you see. So you have to just look within and really check: is this a heart longing? Is it an intuitive for the beloved, for the higher company, which is satsang, or is it just another variant of these desires that they come and go? You see, enough eating. So if it is truly an urge, then grace will also find a way to fulfill it. You're very welcome to come to Bangalore once flights open if you like. And so check on that, whether it's a judgment or whether it's a calling. Then the rest of what you said, I feel, is clarified already.
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One says: 'Dear Ananta, today is the anniversary of my mother. Anna passed away one year ago. That time you gave a blessing to her. Please could you confirm the blessing again today, that my mother find the truth and melt into God's light and Christ's love and peace, and also my father who passed away 11 years ago.' Good. Can you speak something on unconscious awakefulness in relation to awareness? Just leave it then. Next one says: 'I am the witness of the believer himself, the conditioned one, because I notice I am conditioned.' What does this one look like, the conditioned one? You say you witness it. What is its attribute, shape, size? Where is it sitting or standing? This is the funny game about spirituality. Both ends are non-perceptual. The person is non-perceptual and the Self is non-perceptual. So when we say, 'I witness the person' or 'I witness the believer' or the ego, in what way? You may say it is the body; I witness it as the body. But the body doesn't want freedom. The body is just an innocent instrument, you see.
So let's—that's a good impetus into our exercise, because I feel like it is important to point you directly into what I'm speaking about. And if the truth is here as it is, then we must not be so indirect about it. So the game we are playing now is the attempt to come to a direct recognition of what is true right here, right now. Now the question you should ask is: how would I recognize the truth if I come across it? So for that, at least for today, we will apply the Vedantic principle that everything that comes and goes is not real. Yes, this is clear to everyone? We're going to find the truth now. And what is the standard that we apply for the truth? We will apply the Vedantic standard, which is that which comes and goes is not real, is not true. Everything that comes and goes is Maya, and that which does not come and go is the ultimate reality.
So now you have determined for yourself that this is the truth that I am looking for. Now you should ask: how do I look? Using what method should I find? So you cannot find using any method of perception. You cannot find it with your sense organs, yes? So any looking with sense organs is futile. Any perceptive looking, even if it seems like it is an inner perception, you see, but it is still sight or sound or touch or feel, you see, or taste or smell—all of that does not apply to this. So you cannot look with perception. Also, you cannot figure it out mentally. Cannot figure it out mentally. So these two methods of looking and finding do not apply to this truth. Now discover that which is beyond these two modes of knowledge. What is there about you which is independent of perception and thought? That is the truth.
Okay, I've put the gallery view. How many have lost me completely? Okay, let me say, how many of you want me to repeat what I said because you will not admit you lost? So the fundamental basis of spirituality, especially Vedanta, is that the truth does not come and go. So where must it be now? Right here, right now. So it must be here. So we are finding this truth. If it is here now, why can't we find it? Now that's what we are looking at, no? All of us are here for the truth, isn't it? Satsang, we come to the company of the truth. So we want to make this self-discovery, we want to make this discovery of this truth. And if the truth is available right here, right now, I'm saying let's not lose ourselves in all the indirect things. Let's for a moment just go directly at it.
Now firstly, how would you know if you found it? You will apply the Vedantic standard of truth, which is that it cannot come and go. It does not come and go. We are looking for that truth which is reality, which is said that it does not come and go. Now how will you waste time? You will waste time trying to look for it perceptually. So I've already told you, you cannot look for it with sense organs; perceptually you cannot find it. What is the other way to waste time? You may think about it, try to solve it. 'Oh, then therefore it must be easy.' You'll infer, you'll interpret, you'll do all of that stuff, which is also a waste of time. You can't find it that way. Clear? You see, everyone with me now? This nod, okay.
So now the truth is here right now. Without using any of these methods of knowledge, what is your discovery? What is apparent to you, most obvious to you, without having to take a step? What is your discovery? Now many of you will say, and are saying, that 'I am.' 'I am' is itself very beautiful, but I want to propose to you for a moment that even this presence, even this being 'I am,' you are aware of. You are aware of. And even though the fragrance of the presence can be sensed, so if you were to not rely even on that sense, then what is available to you or clear to you or obvious to you? Don't think about it, in the sense that thoughts can come and go; you don't hug them and don't bother with anything that you are perceiving, as sublime and as subtle as it may be. If any aspect of even God is coming to you, let it come and go.
What is your discovery without perception of being? And how would you define being? Like, would being be the opposite of not being? Like would you say that it is even—this being is not there in sleep state, for example? Always present sense, but if that sense also was not there... if you can sense a beginning, like... and it's so sublime because it is barely even qualitative, and yet it has been called the primordial vibration, whether you call it Om or you call it 'I am,' am-ness or beingness or consciousness. And yet it is ultimately—even that is vibratory. You can sense the presence of your own being. Now find that which is aware even of that sense, which is to not—you can't find it by thinking. You may think and think and think; you cannot find it. You may try and look and look and look, whether here or here, inside, outside; you may look, you cannot find.
So is there another—like you said, intuition is the keyword. Like let me give you a clue. Intuition shows you that your being is the sense of your existence, 'I am,' you see. But this 'I,' you see, what is the clue to that 'I'? How do you know it is you which are existent? And then for that, you existent or non-existent, it is independent of—it is independent of that. So the sense that 'I am,' 'I woke up this morning,' 'I went to sleep'—so even the sense of being or being conscious, you see, comes and goes. But that, like you said, that which witnesses even the coming and going of this, how is that to be recognized? How is that awakening to happen?
Let's see what else people are answering. What is the discovery about yourself? Now many are saying that it is nothing, you see. There is nothing. But nothing—what are you relying on to convey the nothing? You're relying on—if any of you are relying on a perception of some dark, empty space, then recognize that what I'm saying is that all perception, whether dark or light, whether spacious or vast or tiny and subtle, all can be let go of, you see. Don't use your intellect at all at this point. All your great discoveries, all your interpretations, just keep them aside for a moment. You're not resisting.
You are saying that it is nothing, you see. There is nothing but nothing. What are you relying on to convey the nothing? You're relying on—if any of you are relying on a perception of some dark empty space, then recognize that what I'm saying is that all perception, whether dark or light, whether spacious or vast or tiny and subtle, all can be let go of, you see. Don't use your intellect at all at this point. All your great discoveries, all your interpretations, just keep them aside for a moment. You're not resisting anything. All perceptions can come, all thoughts can come, but you are just looking for that which is independent of these. And in fact, you are discovering that you're not looking really; you're in fact discovering that.
So some of you will feel frustrated, some may even get angry, throw a tantrum. Some of you may feel like you've gone into some sort of a void, but what I am pointing to is independent of either. So don't wait for a resolution in your head saying, 'I got it' or something like that. Don't wait for any fancy visuals to show up; neither of those are relevant. Some are saying that thoughts are coming up, conditioning is coming up. Let it come. We are not in opposition to any of that. Let it come. It will try to frustrate you or try to say, 'This is so boring, it's a waste of time' or even the other way, saying, 'This is very good, I should always do like this,' taking you into the future projection. Neither are relevant.
So just for some time, I don't want you to tell me what you think. I don't even want you to tell me what you feel. I want us to meet as one. Some of you will be concluding that it is like this, that it is like that. For you, I want to ask: where are you in relation to this 'it' or 'that'? What is the distance between it and you? All the rest of satsang, all spiritual practices, everything is just a preparation for this pristine moment. Nothing that you may have learnt in the past can help you here. All learned knowledge is worthless at this moment. Don't try to control your attention. It can freely go wherever it likes. Eyes can be open or closed, it doesn't matter. Attention will give you perception; you are beyond all perception.
Some of you have taken a position; just let that position go. It is unimportant. Any claim that you can express in words is not the truth. You can just let it go. You don't try to hold anything; don't even try to let go. What is beyond perception? Who has a report about what I am asking, not about what you are asking? If something is like that, you can raise your hands and we can talk for a bit now. Okay, both of you will call. Okay, sorry, where did the thing go? Can you raise your hand again, my dear Nathan? Ah, there you go.
The experience is almost like remembering something I've forgotten. Like, it's a fresh now-ness, and then you realize I've been in thought imagining what we're referring to. It can only be referred to; you can't really describe it, right? It's not a moment even; it's the most real reality. I mean, that's the only—it's ironic to say that it's reality. It's myself, as compared to the egoic idea of myself, which is a thought believed in, acted out. There are thoughts trying to grab my attention. I shouldn't be talking right now, huh? The last few guidance or instructions that you provided, like 'don't even try to let go, don't even try to keep hold on,' exposed the fact that yes, I've been trying to keep awareness. Some embarrassment's coming up, or at least thoughts about that strategy being employed for so long.
Don't worry about it. It's a pristinely beautiful report. It almost feels like a missed feeling like this. I don't even know what I was to say anyway. Okay, sometimes the mind will come and say, 'So what? Now what next?' You see? Just let it come and go. Don't fall into the idea of time. You don't have to compose yourself. Be free. Just be free. All limitations—sometimes the mind will come and say, 'But just get a grip, you know, how are you behaving?' This kind of nonsense, don't bother with it. There's incessant noise saying he should be saying... okay, I will drop my statement. Very happy to have these conversations. Normal is good.
Sorry, am I attributing the word normal to this? To this reality? This everything else was... yeah, you have to believe in, huh?
Don't take anything. Let all proposals for shapes come and go. The mind is just a model, just proposing a shape. Let it go. Okay, all that is coming up spontaneously can come on. Good. How's it feeling now?
It's fine. Very good. Very good. Thank you. Thank you so much. Love always.
Good, good. Okay, which is—can you repeat? So what is your discovery about yourself which is beyond all perception and beyond all interpretation and concepts?
Yes, I am beyond all the perception here.
How do you discover that? You see it? There is no one who discovered this. There is no knowing like a shape or idea of knowing. It's being that without shape. It's like the essence of—how is all of this recognized? How do you make this discovery? What is the basis of this discovery?
I don't know how to answer these. Are you thinking about it and saying 'I am beyond'? Is it just a thought? No, I am like—so first question is, is it just another thought that because I have heard in satsang or I have read in books, therefore now I know? Not because of that. Okay, now do you see something which is beyond all perception? Do you see it? Do you perceive it?
No, it's like I'm behind like this. But how? How is that behind? I don't know. It's like I am, but it is before 'I am.' You say no, I see that I am a shade spicy, better 'I am.' I cannot see it. It's like...
Okay, pause. We'll go slowly. How do you see that which sees 'I am'? There is not a seeing like perception seeing or something like that. It's 'I am' like 'I am,' but it's not like I see 'I am.' The only 'I am' that I can see is the person or the shape of the thoughts or something, the body and all this. But 'I am,' 'I am.' I cannot see it like another eye which is—which is the eye which is harming is an eye. There is no eye. That's what it is.
How to find that eye which is harming? How to find it? There is always here, I am always here. I don't know how to know that, but knowing in what sense? That's what I'm asking. How to know it? How do you know?
I don't know. Okay, okay. Like, because is behind, behind everything. Beyond everything that can be perceived.
Yes, but how do you know?
Because I am. Okay, not too bad, not too bad. No, no, it's good, it's good. Yes, there is nothing in the mind or something like that. It's like it's simple, like I'm perceiving the light, the sound, I'm perceiving all these, but I'm not nothing, I'm not any perception.
Yeah, how do you know that? There is not a knowing from the mind, yes, or for a knowing with form. It's like because I—with you before 'I am.' Have you been through this before? Before 'I am.' I'm not messing with you. I am hearing you well. Very good, very good. So I'm presuming that after this recognition, what you wanted to ask first, it dissolved, no?
Yes, there is a kind of sensation that is just another perception.
So today we are not getting to any perception or concept. For just the moment, we will see how satsang ends, but at least for the moment, I just want everyone to be immersed in this. Okay, you can come back if it's still there at the end, you can come back. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, let's hear Madalina first and then Miguel. So remember the rules. Do you remember the rules? I don't want to know what you think. Just for now, I don't want to know what you think, and I also don't want to know what you feel. What else do you have for me? And I also don't want to know what you see.
The solution. The solution or the solution space is perceived, no? Ah, empty in what way?
Okay, so will you contemplate this five minutes and come back? I'll speak to the next one. Okay, Miguel can come and then Mahesh can come. Namaste, Father.
Know what's doing. Thank you so much. Well, what comes to me is like effortless existence. This is the way, and the most similar experience or where I would experience that would be in deep sleep. That is the way that I don't need to do anything to be there when I'm in deep sleep. But then it comes that the mind in daily life wants to take rule of the—this I know that is not the truth, but this is the way it feels.
Yeah, I like this very much. I like this very much. How do you know? How do you know yourself in deep sleep? He says, 'I know myself as that effortlessly, like I am in deep sleep.' Who can say these kind of words? Very beautiful. So to discover that which remains unchanged from sleep to waking, you see, is to wake up. Strangely enough, that which is unchanged as all these things started appearing, but I remain unchanged. To discover my reality which exists even in sleep state during the waking state, that is strangely called awakening.
Thank you so much for everything you are giving to us. I have enjoyed seeing you so many years. I always see you when I see that bookshelf behind you also; it's very familiar to me. Thank you, thank you for all these years being with you. It has been such a blessing. You don't know how much you are in my heart.
Thank you, thank you so much. Same, same. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, Mahesh can come.
Everything arises in what I am, and there can be nothing there and still I am. Even the sense 'I' is seen to arise, and then this sense 'I' connects to a story, and this can change like watching different movies or playing different computer games. This seems to be the world like this.
And then, no, it's like this: that in which it arises, how is that known? Not as a sensation, not as a thought.
Yes, it's almost like the vastness of it is recognized because everything is seen to arise in it.
So the vastness in a way is also inferred because of what—the vastness of what shows up within it. But for it, can we even say it is vast or not?
No. I guess another way to say it is its existence can be inferred by everything arising within it.
Okay, so now let's say that you were not to infer. Is there another way without inference? Using, you know, human faculties, there's no way to prove that it exists.
Yes, yes. So when we let go of human faculties, is there a godly faculty? Is there a divine faculty we have but we've been missing? It's very obvious and yet completely unprovable.
Yes, yes, yes. Obvious and yet uninformable, unprovable, undemonstratable, unspeakable. And even when there's a sense of, 'Oh, I'm aware of, but I'm feeling it, I'm sensing it,' this is what it is, and then even that is seen, and then everything is just thrown up, thrown away, thrown out. Exactly. Independent of all of that play, independent of all of that movement. I'm so overjoyed to hear these reports today. That's beautiful, beautiful reports. Oh, good soup. Okay, thank you, thank you. Okay, let me put down some hands. Okay, Madalina, are you ready? It's not if you're ready; otherwise we'll come back to you after the next one. Let's come back. Ah, okay, come back. I was not expecting that. That's good, it's good, it's very good. So let's hear from Anna.
My report is awareness.
How did you find it?
It's here. It's...
Where is 'here'? Is 'here' a special thing?
No, it's what is.
Yes. How did you come across this discovery?
Because you keep—because you're telling us and we know, and I know there are things that come and go, and what doesn't come and go is there's awareness.
Suppose you didn't have the word 'awareness.' Then what would you say about it? Could you say 'I'? Or is it something that you, which is separate from it, is discovering? It's 'I.' And as this 'I,' what are your attributes? How old are you?
There's no attributes. I have no attributes.
What can hurt you in this world?
Nothing.
What is suffering to you?
It's something that comes and goes.
And how do you know that you are not just making this stuff up? Because this is what your mind will tell you.
Because it does tell me that, and yet every time that I...
If you are less, then what would you say about it? Could you say 'I' or is it something that you, which is separate from it, is discovering it's 'I'? And as this 'I', what are your attributes? How old are you?
There's no attributes. I have no attributes.
What can hurt you in this world?
Nothing.
What is suffering to you?
It's something that comes and goes.
And how do you know that you are not just making this stuff up? Because this is what your mind will tell you.
Because it does tell me that, and yet every time that there's a looking or relaxing, it's there. It's still here. The mind comes and tells me, and then it goes, and it doesn't keep telling me it anymore.
And what if it did keep telling you? Would it be that that could be true?
No, it would be observed. It's a noise. It's a perception. Because that certainly occurs, that sometimes there's a racket. And even the thought coming in like, 'Oh, this is so sweet and beautiful,' it's observed. And oh, maybe I won't hold on to it; there's nothing to hold on to. It's all observed like a little river coming along, like a sweet little leaf floating.
Yeah, look at this. Very good. Very happy, very happy. Thank you, thank you. Any temptation that your mind will propose to make any meaning out of any of this, just let it be coming and going. Don't worry. Very good. Who wants to come now? Oliver. Oliver, then Lawrence, and then to Madalina.
Hello, namaste Father. I would like to report that my experience is that there's total transparency, like nothing behind, no one behind. No one who's experiencing anything. Nothing there, no one there.
And who is discovering this?
It itself.
Yes, yes, yes. And you are what in relation to this?
I am that. Yes, I'm that nothingness. Nothing in particular. No entity, nothing, no one. Like there's not nothing watching; there's no one, nothing watching. And yet it's all observed. And then how does it happen that—I mean, at this moment it feels impossible to struggle with anything. It's just total freedom, total freedom. But how does it come to again identifying oneself with this particular organism having all kinds of issues?
Don't think about it for the moment. Enjoy your discovery. Enjoy your discovery, because the 'whys' and the 'hows' will only get you back to the intellect again.
Because it's nobody. There's nobody, there's nothing. It's just nothingness, and yet it's so alive. And there's no beginning to it.
Are you perceiving? Do you perceive this?
I perceive, but not in the ordinary way I perceive things. It's just some folds have been removed and I see that there's no one, no nothing behind the perceiving, behind the scene. Nothing is looking, nothing is hearing.
Does this nothing have a color? Is it like—
No, it's transparent. It's totally transparent. It's nothingness, but it's so alive.
Let me probe you a little more. Is it even transparent?
No, I just tried to describe it.
Do you have to find it with your attention?
Well, I kind of have to pull my attention from the usual way of seeing things.
Okay, let's try to see in the usual way and see if you can still find yourself. Like, look at this hand here on the screen. And now, what happened?
My attention is on your hand.
Yes, and what happened to that no-thing?
But yeah, it's not like my attention—the attention is on your hand, yeah. But that discovery of that no-thing which is your reality, did that go away because of the attention being on the hand?
No, no, no. Actually, the 'me' is like fading away. Yes. So for the recognition of this discovery that is happening, do we need to let go of the normal functioning of attention in any way?
Ah, I thought so, but now I see we don't. I used to think so.
Yeah, many think like that, no? And it can be a misconception because what can happen is then we feel like, 'I have to keep my attention fixated on some other place' or something like that. But this is not—it's always like this. It's always like only we somehow think it's this 'me' who is perceiving, but there's no 'me'. It's always this emptiness.
No, yes. That's very good, that's very good.
Soon I'll forget who is the master and who's the disciple here. This is very good Satsang. I feel like the Sangha can become my master as well. Anyway, let me make all those meanings and enjoy them; you don't worry about any of them.
You know, I'm so grateful for this because there was no chance for me to save the money for going to Portugal and be with the Master. And I was praying that somehow I'm able to really—though the connection is always there—but to be able to communicate and to exchange because we need it. And I was so sad and so frustrated because I never could go to see Mooji Ji. And now this is like the answer of my prayers. I was so much praying for opportunity to exchange with the Master, to—you know, I mean, there's many of us here, but I feel like I'm talking to you and you are addressing me and it's so intense. And I thought I would never be able to travel and experience that, and this is like so big.
I'm very happy. I'm very happy. And it makes me very glad that although you could not physically visit my Master, my Master sent his servant to you. Yes, so much love. Very good. Thank you. Okay, I've forgotten the queue. Was it Lawrence? Lawrence can come next.
Hello. Hello, can you hear me, Father? Yes, so full of gratitude taking this opportunity to be on the hot seat and see how this report will come. Everything is blank now. Take your time. There are no words. The only word would be—those are all words—surrendering without a surrenderer. Your question was how do I know? It's like—how can I say—obviousness. And like having discovered that any looking for makes two, so it's useless. Then that being a thought, the next thing that is observed is that there is a different energetic thing and like really some presence, but then it's phenomenal as well. So it's been noticed that there is always this like, 'Oh, there is this twinkling' or whatever, this leading to gratitude. So this is observed, that there is a reference to this as a proof which conveyed—it's been noticed that there's a knowing, a deep knowing that if I am here, it is as awareness, as you. And so there has been this trying to—like these images that come, like if it was prana, like this tiniest little that is in everybody, but then also it's a representation. So what can one say? This one here is always caught up like hearing of this deep blue and these phenomenal things that people report to have experienced, and there is this wanting to—why is it all blurred when there is looking?
All right, let's go back to the previous channel now. Let's go back to the previous channel we were on. This last one, that one was nice. You know what I mean? Yes, something became a bit like interpretive and judgmental. Just let that go. Let go, because this is how the mind will tempt you. You're making pristine discovery. You're discovering this pure awareness which is aware even of the more sublime primordial vibration, you see? But the mind doesn't like any of that. It wants to have its say about how things are and all of that. It has to attempt to tempt you out of that.
Is it so that the more it—how to say—that these attacks are numerous and so it's—
That's why I say actually—I have a sense for your question—so many times I say that Satsang is 99% resistance management, you see? The seeing is very simple actually, as so many of you are discovering today. To come to this discovery is very simple if you're open. It is pristinely obvious. But most of Satsang, and why I've had so many Satsangs over the last seven, eight years, is because this—you see the attacks as you call them, the resistance, the interpretation, the narrative—all of this can seem to have a lot of momentum. And the more you come to Satsang, the more you sit in inquiry with the Master, the lighter and lighter it seems to get. Of course, not always like that; for some it can be faster, for some it can be slow. We can't really predict how it goes. But usually it is the conditioning management and the mind attacks, the resistance management, which seems to be temporal. The discovery is beyond time and space. It's quite straightforward. There's nothing to feel bad or guilty about. It is just part of how this plays out, you see? And it was a beautiful, beautiful report. Very beautiful, because I know your mind will come and say, 'See, you messed that up' or something like this, but it's not true like that. It is very natural and very important for us to see that the mind can play in these ways. It doesn't mean anything about your discovery. Yes, thank you so much. Now Madalina, ready? Very, very good. Okay, what are the rules? No mind, no emotions, no feeling. Yes? I don't want to know what you think. I don't want to know what you're feeling, and I don't want to know what you're even perceiving. What else do you have?
The discovery discovers itself.
That sounds like a concept, no? You tell me if I'm wrong; I'm happy to be wrong about this. Is it a discovery? Is it your discovery that the discovery discovers itself?
It's not my discovery.
Then whose is it?
The one who discovers is.
And how do you get to know about this?
Because I am.
And what is the discovery at time? Who is aware even if 'I am'? Who is the 'I' that is? Can you hear me that way? Who is the 'I'? Let me rephrase it. How do you know that it is you that are when this sense 'I am' is perceived? Let's call it perceived for a moment. When it is experienced, why don't we say, 'Oh, there you are'? How come we say 'I am'? Usually when we perceive the existence of something, we claim it to be another, no? You. How is this presence called 'I', 'I am'? How come we don't say, 'Ah, there you are, consciousness, God, Atma'? You see? How come we don't say 'you'? Why do we say 'I am'? Who's 'I'? Who is this 'I am'? To come to the discovery of this reality—this Self, self-realization, self-recognition, self-knowledge, whatever you may call it—I have told you that cannot be done with thought, cannot be done with perception. You see, like Maharaj called it, it cannot be done with these human faculties. So what is that which is beyond a human faculty? Now whether we call it the knowing of the heart or you call it intuition, what does it help you discover?
It was the intuition. But there is a strong pull now of the mind trying to find an answer to your question.
Yeah, but remember that if you have a hundred brilliant thoughts or you have ten thousand great answers in your mind, none of them will be the answer. I know that. Yes. Okay, let's do this in a simpler way. Okay, so let's go slowly. There is—you can open your eyes if you want, whenever you're ready. So there is a perception of the world, yes? There's a perception of let's call it the world. There is perception of these sensations that we call body, yes? You can rub your hands if you're too deeply immersed and you can't feel your body; it can happen sometimes, you know. So these sensations that we call the body are also perceived, yeah?
Yes.
Then if you are experiencing some pain or pleasure in the body, that is also perceived, yes? Then if there's some emotion, if there's some absence of emotion—either emotion or absence of emotion—you can perceive, isn't it?
Yes.
Then if there is some thought, if there's some conclusion, if there's some notion arising in what we call the mind, that's also perceived, yes?
Yes.
Now that you are, your very existence, you see? That presence, your very presence, you see? That is also experienced, although okay, let's continue to use the word perceived for the moment. You see, you have a sense of it. You sense your presence, yes? And if an—
If there's some absence of emotion, either emotion or absence of emotion you can perceive, isn't it? Then if there is some thought, if there's some conclusion, if there's some notion arising in what we call the mind, that's also perceived. Now that you are your very existence, you see that presence, your very presence, you see that is also experienced. Although, okay, let's continue to use the word perceived for the moment, you see, you have a sense of it. You sense your presence. And if any of you find that difficult, then just try to stop being. When you try to stop being, you'll notice that just this being is just there. This presence is perceived. Now, besides all of this, is there anything remaining? Now you see, what about that which perceives all of this? Can that be perceived? Now you see, then what perceives all of this? Who is that that perceives all of this? How can that be known if it cannot be perceived? It's an invitation. Suppose you don't know the word intuition, then how is it known? How much time does it take to know that now?
No time.
So tell me something that you know which is not in time.
It is.
Yes, and this 'it', how far is it from you? The 'it' that is, what is its relationship with you?
We are one.
Nice. Now what does that discovery mean for Madelina?
Nothing.
So what's the big deal then? How does it help Madelina?
Madelina doesn't exist. It's a concept.
Very good, very good.
When I look at things, they disappear.
When you look at things, they disappear, or do they appear?
Oh, the concept itself, like a thought, the place. When you look for me, you find that it is not there. Yeah, it's the same with my body. And this seems like a discovery in itself. If I put it through my mind, it seems very hard to accept.
Don't put it through your mind, especially for acceptance. You can put it through your mind for resistance, not for acceptance, okay? Yeah, and to try and use the mind to get acceptance is a great fallacy, you know. Okay, you go to the mind only if you want resistance. There is a lot because you went. What to do now? You made the visit to the resistance shop. Don't worry, it'll go. It is never, never lasting. Only the truth is everlasting. The mind is never lasting. I'm very happy, I'm very happy, and I'm ready for some bhajans. Okay, I'm going to read the messages that you all posted while we play some bhajans. I may not have the energy to answer every one of them, but know that I'm blessing you fully, fully. Thank you. Oh, now this video is popping at me. One of the children here in the sangha is dancing very happily in this. Let's see if she can spot herself.
Nice buzz. Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. Satguru Sri Mooji Baba Ki Jai. Thank you.