Nothing of Value Is Lost, As You Come to This Conceptual Emptiness - 28th May 2021

But then what then happens is that we come to a point where we don't need to communicate in that way because you're mostly able to see through most of the positions and the shapes that the mind is trying to create, you see? Even in hearing this, there's a subtle shape. Something went in my eye, I'm sorry. So, seems to be—so, depending on where that speck of dust is, you see, that is the—that is where you have to blow into and blow it out. So it cannot be a standard cookie-cutter sort of response. And that, I completely understand the frustration that comes along with hearing something like that, because it just feels like, 'But then I'm lost. I go to a teacher so that he can guide me in terms of what to do,' you know? But the teacher sometimes says X, X; sometimes he says Y, Y; sometimes he says up, up; sometimes he says down, down, you see? So it can seem very confusing, and I don't really have a wheel. But that's how it is because the teacher does not want you to get addicted to a newer set of lies which are spiritual concepts.

It is not like the principle of moving up is not what is being applied here. So we spoke about this where you're willing to let go of an existing concept if you're given a better-sounding concept, and especially if the benefits sound great. But this kind of satsang is more difficult because here nothing is on offer, you see? So what can I really do, you see? What will I find the truth, you see? And even when the conclusive answers are there, soon they will neutralize each other, and that seems to be a disadvantage or a frustration, but actually it's a great help because we learn how to not rely on conceptual knowledge and we allow this life which is—and true, we allow this life which is central to our very being as consciousness to unfold itself in the most organic way, you see?

And you're doing it very well, but sometimes the mind presents conundrums to us and puzzles to us saying, 'On one hand, on the other hand,' you see? So what does it all actually mean? Just forget about it. Yeah. 'How am I supposed to be?' But your being actually needs no support or assistance from a conceptual position, you see? In fact, the only thing that that can do is create a box or a mold in which then life has to unfold, you see? And what is happening in satsang is that the invitation is to throw away all these molds, all these shapes, and see how you exist, how your existence still continues to manifest in the most beautiful way, and not to have to direct it so much in terms of the hows and the whims, you see?

So what should your position be? Open and empty, you see? But what if sometimes you are sitting and going 'Oh' and other times you're going, 'Who am I? What is this? Am I aware now?' you see? Other times you're just—other times you're just watching a TV show. It doesn't have to be only spiritual stuff, whatever it is, no? But it is not that consciousness is ever going to make a mistake or something is better or something is worse. In reality, it is just what is showing up on the screen of consciousness, which can only trouble us or limit us, or consciousness itself can seem to get limited by that, only by referring to our conditions about what is showing up and try to get a grasp or a handle on them, you see?

Now, what interpret something which you don't already have a condition about? Okay, let me make it simple. It did not come across very well. So this form is on the computer in front of you, you see? Now, if you did not have the molds which was man, teacher, Ananta, Guruji, all these—Father—all these molds, you see, and you were finding yourself unable to fit this in any mold, how would you do with that?

I wouldn't. I mean, there would be nothing to say about it. It would just—it would just be like if there was no thought or idea about you or about form.

Yes, yes. So like I call it pure perception. The pure perception will still continue, but it is empty of the limitations or the shapes or the molds from the mind saying, 'This is a man, he's my master, he's telling me something,' you see? All that, we are empty of that. And that is a great lesson about life, you see? Because life is just unfolding in the most beautiful way. Our conditions, which are how-tos and when-tos and well-done or badly-done, all of those conditions actually just get in the way. They just limit our natural existence, our organic being.

So that's why I hope now we can meet at this point where really we can see through at a layer, you see, which is deeper than the context of the question itself, you see? Because we are now looking at the subtext itself, which is about the how-tos and feeling helpless if I don't know how to deal with the situation, you see? And questioning the idea of not knowing how to is worse than knowing how to, you see? Maybe not knowing how to is better. We don't even know that, you see? I hope all of you are with me, and the new ones maybe struggling a bit, but I'm happy to talk to you as well. But this is important to see. Otherwise, what will happen is that we will seem to resolve everything at a micro level—at a micro level, one problem at a time. But once we can start chopping it at the subtext, you see? What is the proposition really?

The proposition really is that, 'I don't know then how to be spiritual,' for example. It is not necessarily what the condition that you were buying into, but suppose the subtext is, 'How can I be the right spiritual seeker?' You see that you're not going to be the spiritual seeker. So the how-to manual is for one—for the one who doesn't exist, you see? And the frustrations are of the same one, or even the conclusions or the resolutions are of the same one. Yeah. You see? Because who is the protagonist even in that dilemma or that conundrum? So the absence of that shape is freedom.

Okay. Yeah, that's clear. I'm—yeah, I see that it's still an idea that I want to know is that—like, it's even though it's a spiritual idea, it's still a conditioning. It's still something that I want to grasp and that's—yeah, that's clear. And it's still there, but I hear what you're saying.

Yes, yes. But when we say it is there, it is there, what does that mean actually? What do we mean it is there?

The desire, the urge. Kind of a tightness.

Okay. So let's identify it. Can we identify it here and now? Where is it? In the chest, where my most things are? You see, now that perception, which could be like a constriction or some, you know, just some pulsation, then what is that saying organically? Just the perception itself just is. It's not saying anything. That's very good. So if you just look at that, you see, and not like we don't have to fixate our attention on it or make a practice out of it, but if you just look at that and don't succumb to the need to conclude, you see, then you will meet at a point where you will identify all the need to know, all the need to grasp, which is actually like a need to limit ourselves or need to attack ourselves or a need to really suffer, which the mind convinces us that this actually is going to help us, you see? 'The more we grasp, the better off we will be,' you see?

So if you can meet it at the seeming discomfort or wobbliness level, you see, of not knowing and allowing ourselves to be not conclusive, then you strike it at the root, you see? Because it is at the substratum of all grasping, this kind of, 'But I'm still a bit incomplete, I'm still a bit—am I completely clear about this?' And it's all pushing. It's a mental push towards sort of a mental resolution, a conclusiveness which actually is just the birthing ground for new confusion. So like we said, then the cycle of the spiritual seeker is mostly confusion, confusion, conclusion, conclusion, confusion, confusion. So it's the same thing. Confusion, then you hear some words in satsang and I feel like, 'Ah, thank you, thank you, that got resolved.' It became a conclusion. But those fresh conclusions then become the new confusion, you see? So that's why this journey seems so circular and endless, and most of us have been on this for so long in this sort of merry-go-round way where we feel like, 'Oh, this is my final question.' No? So many times you feel like—I felt that so many times—and then I would hear a satsang or I would hear a—

Confusion. Then you hear some words in satsang and I feel like, 'Ah, thank you, thank you, that got resolved. It became a conclusion.' But those fresh conclusions then become the new confusion, you see? So that's why this journey seems so circular and endless, and most of us have been on this for so long in this sort of merry-go-round way where we feel like, 'Oh, this is my final question.' No. So many times you feel like—I felt that so many times—and then I would hear a satsang or I would hear any master speaking, I feel like, 'Oh, I had this confusion for so long. Thank you, thank you, thank you, all done now.' But then same thing, the same thing that the master said tomorrow will become the source of new confusion. 'But you said like this, but how can I be like that?' So it becomes a source of fresh confusion.

So what happens is that the world's idea of progressive knowledge cannot work here in satsang, you see? Because we've progressed from one level to the next level to the third level, and in most forms of spirituality or more sects of spirituality also, there is that kind of progressive sort of systems available till a particular point where everything has to be chopped away. But in what we call direct satsang, you see, it's just very direct. And the idea is not to put you in a progressively better place, you see; it is to just shake you out of every place that you can possibly imagine yourself to be. So that's the main idea.

So more and more, especially for those who've been with me for a bit now, we must be able to look at it at this level and say: What is this really about? Is it that I'll hear an answer blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and I will store that and say, 'Ah yes, yes, this is my mantra for life now. This is what I'm supposed to do.' That cannot be it. You see, the glory of God and the light of the Self cannot be that limited that we'll be able to capture it in that way. Provisionally, of course, and especially for those who are new, we can provide some tips and answers and solutions, you see, but ultimately we must just come to a point where we are not afraid to meet our own nakedness in a full and open and innocent way.

You see, and you identified it very well because this is the kind of wobbliness that I speak about, that many times it just feels like, 'But you know, it's still a bit shaky here. So what is he saying? Left, left or right, right?' Actually, I'm not saying anything. Like many of you may look back at the end of satsang and say, 'What did he really say?' So I can understand that predicament, but that's the whole feeling. If you feel like at the end of satsang you didn't really understand much, but hopefully you felt like you had a bath on the inside, then that is good enough.

And the second one is also my problem, nothing to do with any of you. So this is for me to do, not for any of you to feel like, 'Oh, I don't feel so good today, maybe I didn't pay enough attention.' It's not talking about any of that stuff. So it's just like this. So don't meet me at a level where answers, you see, define so much. Now, you see, it is the essence of your pure being which we are now cleaning up fully, fully, so that you can fully shine in this unobstructed way. Instead of giving you fresh dust, we are not replacing dust with, you know, glitter or something. That can be the spiritual idea: 'I had this worldly dust, now I'm going to be full of spiritual glitter or something.' But that is not it.

Because at your core, at your center, at your very essence, is the purest light of the universe. In fact, it is the light in which the whole world is perceived. So no words can amplify that. So at best, the delusion that is created by words is then negated by words. It's like poison cutting poison. If you did not have a how-to for anything—and this is for everyone—if you did not have a how-to manual how to live... You see, most of us since we've been two and a half, three years old, we've been on this search for how to. And whether you are three years old, five years old, ten years old, eighty years old, a hundred years old, if you talk to most people, you see, you'll say, 'I still haven't figured out, you know, how to live.'

And even the ones then who feel like they have figured out how to live, they are more deluded. So there's dissatisfaction because I haven't figured out how to live, and there's greater suffering because when we become too rigid about our ideas of how to live, you see, then that makes us suffer a lot because life shows us all colors and shapes and sizes. So our ideas are bound to get crushed by life and that feels like it is suffering more. So the ones—and we've met so many in our lives, we come across people and we see—the ones who are really, really certain about things that we cannot be certain about, you see, they end up then trying to hold it up for a bit but eventually end up crumbling again, again under the weight of their own notions.

You see, so as a spiritual guide—and some of you call me Father and things—I would never give my children any more burden. The provisional concepts that are here in satsang are just so that they can do a clean-up job of what is there. But all of you can notice this now, even right now, that life is appearing as pure perception. You see, do you need to mold it in a mental shape? No. You see, and when we are not able to mold it in a mental shape, sometimes this feeling of wobbliness comes, and it is good to meet it empty. You see, good to recognize that yes, it is natural for it to come. If it doesn't come, no worries, but for many it will come. You see, and it's fine. It sort of is a habit; it is the instigator of the habit to make meaning, conceptual meaning, about what is showing up. And once we see it for what it is, then we can meet it at that level and together discard, discard this.

So I'm just showing you that it is—sorry, I'm just rambling on and on, but it's a good start to satsang. I'm just showing you how much of a supreme possibility it is to live open and empty without needing to grasp onto any way of living or any how-to of life. So as we investigate more and more, you will find that: What is this really about? When we are able to ask ourselves this question, what is this really about? You see, is it about a 'me'? You see, is it that a non-existent entity wants to figure out how to swim in this lake? You see, it's not possible.

So Guruji uses this beautiful example. He says, 'You be the cow that jumped over the moon.' You be the cow that jumped over the moon. But in our trying, we cannot do it. You see, can anyone try and jump over the moon? Like, 'I'm going to take a really long run-up and, you know, I'm going to come like from a hundred meters running, really long run-up, and then really just take off and jump over the moon.' You see, so in our trying we cannot do it. Then the mind says, 'Okay, now let me try the opposite approach. Let me not try at all. You see, I'm just going to sit here. If the moon wants to come under me, then it can come.' And you see, it's done with this. But that is also trying without trying. Like, we are trying; we are trying to do it by not trying. That is still trying.

So we cannot, we cannot fool our way out of this, you see. So either position that we take, we cannot jump. You see, but when we are absent of any position, you see, we are already much beyond the moon. I know I'm taking the metaphor really far, but we're much beyond the leap, you see. But we cannot do it in our trying and we cannot do it in our not trying. And it is the intellect which has these opposites. So as I keep reiterating, we have to let go of both ends of the intellect, you see, both ends of the intellect, because all the positions that it can propose that you take belong to somebody who doesn't exist.

And as you continue to contemplate on 'Can I stop being?' or 'Am I aware now?', you're doing the inquiries, so you will see that these positions will not seem as compelling as they were in the past. You see, because you notice that who is it talking about? Who is it talking about? Is it talking to this beingness, you see, which is limitless already and has nowhere to go? In fact, everything appears within itself. Or is it talking to that which is aware even of being? You see, it cannot apply to any of those. So the mind's non-existent problems or propositions of problems for the one that doesn't exist will no longer seem as compelling now. Thank you. So welcome, so welcome.

Is it unfair to those who ask short questions and they have to do such a long transcript because I go on? We can make a simpler rule for them. I'm happy to do it. Okay, okay, thank you, thank you. Actually, this one itself we can just have a small booklet or something just out of this because it covers all this doership and conceptual position and a lot of topics that we talk about. Thank you, thank you. Okay, I saw fairly early, so let's go to her. Oops, sorry.

Hi there. Hello, my dear. Hi. Oh my god, here it feels like, oh, I couldn't wait to speak to you and it feels like life and death, but it's not like that. It's just... relax, it's fine. It is not, but yeah, I don't know. Like sometimes, I'm not very good at expressing. Sometimes my thoughts are deeper, deepest feelings or something, but I hope you know where this question is coming from. And it's like, this is what all satsang is about. It's about this, I feel. But I feel at the moment like I need almost like a personal confirmation, and say that it is like that, because otherwise it feels a little bit too abstract and leaves some space for the mind to come in and maybe prolonging the game. So, as ever, I have some things that I wrote down because I thought it's very important for me to ask it. Yes. So, when you say, 'Don't believe in your next thought,' does it apply to any thought ever, one hundred percent of the time, like ever?

Yes. You want me to share more about that? I can just take a moment and share a little more about that. So that question is actually very relevant and I used to get it a lot more; I haven't got it for a few years. So I'm glad that somebody's asked because I'm sure this kind of doubt comes: 'What about this kind of thought? What about something about something I have to do?' All of these kind of questions can come, you see. But let's really look at it. What is a thought? Thought is what? It's a set of words. A set of words or a message, you see, which seems to convey or proposes to convey something about what is, isn't it? It is making a proposal that this is how something is, and based on that proposal, sometimes the thoughts can be about what should be, what needs to be done. But the core proposal always is that it's a conclusion about what is.

You see, but if we really look, we will see that what is—even the manifest aspect of what is—is never that tiny that a proposal or a set of words can really define it. So a thought is a proposal of reality, whereas reality is too broad to be contained in that proposal, you see. Therefore, even the words of satsang we cannot hold on to. That's why I keep saying that they are provisional. Sometimes they say they are nonsense, sometimes I say throw them away, you see, because if we end up making those words as some true representations of what is, then life will show us that even that is not true.

You see, so what happens and why I want to say yes is because you may say, for example, that, 'But if the thought goes: The coconut is green. See, what's so wrong with that? Why should I not believe that the coconut looks green?' Now, the thing with that is that firstly, we cannot really trust our perceptions to that level, like firstly. But secondly, it usually doesn't stay at 'the coconut is green.' So if I was to make that distinction and say, 'Okay, if it is just a description of pure phenomenal appearance, then those we can take to be here,' but why do we need to do that? We have the phenomenal appearance then apparent already, you know.

See, what's so wrong with that? Why should I not believe that the coconut looks green? Now, the thing with that is that, firstly, we cannot really trust our perceptions to that level. But secondly, it usually doesn't stay at 'the coconut is green.' So if I was to make that distinction and say, 'Okay, if it is just a description of pure phenomenal appearance,' then those we can take to be here. But why do we need to do that? We have the phenomenal appearance apparent already, you know? We don't need a thought to confirm that. And secondly, as soon as we say 'coconut is green,' the follow-up is going to be, 'Oh, I don't like green coconut' or 'I love green coconut.' The introduction of the false protagonist, the ego, is very, very quick, you see.

So, in our ability to decipher pure perception, you see, and say, 'Ah, this is black, this is white, this is green'—why do we need to do that? We're already perceiving it, no? Do we need to know to drink from a glass of water? Do we need to know this is glass, this is called glass, this is called water? You see, all of that, no. You see, just naturally, just like a child can drink from its mother's breast; he doesn't know 'this is milk, this is what I'm supposed to do.' You see, it can still function very naturally. And I take so many examples of birds and all of creation which moves so beautifully. Even right now, millions of functions are functioning, you know, in our one body. We don't need conceptual understanding, you see. So letting go of concepts which cannot truly represent what is, is the letting go of ignorance.

Yes, I've been feeling like that. Just that this not believing in a thought came more frequent and went deeper. But still, there is like such a, 'Ah, this is a bit too much.' But I understand that this is just the thought that is believed, that someone believes in it, and it's fine. I'm actually very grateful for it to happen because it reveals itself more in this way, I feel like. So yeah, like even this moment or this question that just passed through is a very good example.

Because initially when you started speaking, there might have been a thought saying, 'I'm going to say this,' but as you went along, the conversation was happening, the words were coming out of the mouth, but you did not need to think about it to speak those words. Just like here in satsang, I don't need to think about it to speak these words, you see? They're just unfolding. And I keep saying, just like I'm hearing words coming from that mouth, I'm hearing words coming from this mouth. Is it true?

There is another thing as well. I don't know why it feels like I need to hear the confirmation that it's okay, that it's fine to be not as something in it. But that is conceptual emptiness. It's fine to be like this? That it's fine too? Because I don't know.

Okay, good, good. This is a very nice question also. So the first question is: can we let go of all thoughts? Yes. The second question is: will I be all right, or will it be fine if I'm conceptually empty? You see, every moment that we've tried that or had that experience, you see, it's been completely fine. We noticed that life doesn't need this sort of conceptual intervention. All the functioning which is natural continues to unfold. You see, the masters again are speaking from a conceptually empty place, but they seem to say a lot of words, you see. So communication can happen, the bodily functioning is happening; there is nothing that really stops except our ability to beat ourselves up.

So even let's say this 'not to take shape' or 'stay open and empty' is something that arises after in me as not nothing? No, I don't know how to...

Yes, yeah. So it's like if you have a habit which is a particular condition—the habit is that our hand keeps going up, it keeps going up like that—then the opposite has to come so the hand comes to keep it down. That is the only point of spiritual instruction, you see. To remain open and empty is not something that you have to do forever, especially only if the habit is, 'Oh, I have to pick something up.' Then somebody has to remind you, 'No, no, remain open and empty. You are fine. You're fine just like this conversation. You're fine, you're going to be fine.' And then you try it and you see in the moment you're just fine. See, nobody's had a problem when they're open and empty. It's only before and after. It's only before and after when we try to put that into some sort of a narrative and try to make it sort of either beneficial or not beneficial for me; that is when it can become problematic.

But at some point as well, you can let go of this as well, right? You must. But maybe it's a good idea if there's a living master just to check with him, because many times the mind wants to 'shoot the sheepdog,' as Guruji says first. Sorry, there's quite a few. And there is another one: let's say if I find myself in some kind of situation or in some kind of a state where a mind or I am presenting myself as—I wouldn't want to say as a person or something again—maybe is it okay to leave this as well and not try to resolve something? Just completely like I'm out of it, like watching from far and finding myself far more in this part rather than in this so-called personal. But still it's something like, 'Ah, you see, you have to look at it, maybe you have to change something or improve,' you know? And it's like I don't believe it, but I just need to double-check with you.

Yes, it's good. This is also a very important question. So what can happen is that we are in a particular situation, you see, then all the different instructions can keep coming at us, no? So one is like, 'Just let go,' you see, and that can seem like, 'Okay, I have to be a bit detached from the whole thing.' Then another instruction can come and say, 'Look at this, but what is it?' You see? Yeah. 'Am I supposed to let go or am I supposed to look at?' Maybe it can seem again very confusing. And I have to say in these cases also, like I told the first question, that we cannot have a template and say, 'Okay, in every situation,' you see? Because there could be some things that show up and this body-mind in the play of consciousness needs to participate in that. And like that, in other situations, the body-mind just needs to run away from that situation, you see.

So as long as we're referring to ourselves as that body-mind, you see, all that variety of play needs to happen. And as we are no longer associating ourselves as that, then we realize that as we are conceptually open and empty, you see, whatever movement needs to happen from the expression, it is happening anyway.

It feels from here that it's like it's happening anyway. Like I'm not so much... I don't know. I don't know what am I saying. Words, I feel like, you know, doesn't express.

The guidance is just that 'I don't know' is very good, you see. 'I don't know' is very good. And moment to moment, you will be guided by your heart in terms of what guidance, what instruction needs to be followed.

Yes, thank you. And like the last thing, like I remember we spoke last time and, oh my god, me, the audacity. Even you said maybe four or five times, like offered me to leave all the spiritual concepts, but I feel like maybe I wasn't that ready. I don't know, I couldn't hear it. So I really sat with it, and because it left like a very bitter taste in my mouth. And so if the offer still stands with these spiritual concepts, I just would like to leave all of it, like all of the concepts, because I don't want it. I really don't, none of it.

Very good, very good. Of course it still stands, always stands. I think nothing of value is lost as you come to this conceptual emptiness. So welcome. So welcome. Okay, let's go to Zuki.

Hello, can you hear me?

Yes, my dear, I can hear you well. Yes, Namaste, my life. Thank you. So welcome. I have written down my question because my English is not so good and I try to read now.

Yes, yes, take your time. Don't worry.

Yes, this question is about time and perceiving the time. So I am perceiving now. Everything I perceive is always in this moment. And the concept of time is known like time, like past, present, and future, but the experience is always now, only this now. Okay, but then I look outside, for example, and see different old buildings, or I read some ancient scripture, or look at a past photograph, and this sense of past arises, but it's not experienced or proven. So how can I know that time passes, or how can we really rely on stories or books or saints from the past if we haven't experienced it yet? So where does the so-called ancient buildings or scriptures then come from? Because I experience only always now. And if someone tells me something, it's from the past, or I see some older building or something like this and someone says, 'Yes, it's from the 14th century' or very old. But maybe you can bring some light on...

Yes, it's very, very interesting contemplation. So if this image in front of you—yes, so what happens is that for a while in time, it can seem like we start to question, 'Is the image frozen?' You see? What does it mean for the image to be frozen? It's like, 'No time is passing, so it must be frozen,' you see. So time is our idea of change, you see. Our idea of a previous state, a new state, and a conceptual future state, you see. Now, without these notions, you see, there is no time. Yes, actually there is no time.

So very often I take this example that suppose you went to sleep tonight and in the sleep you had a dream that you were living in Haridwar or Rishikesh or something, and you were an Indian man. And somebody asked your name, you see, you say, 'My name is Ramesh.' You see, you will not say, 'No, no, sorry sir, my dream just started, I don't know what my name is.' So although it just started, we are able to still refer to that which our mind called memory from the apparent past and say, 'Okay, have you always lived in Rishikesh?' 'Yes, yes, I've always lived on this street,' you see.

So in consciousness, consciousness has the ability even at the start, the very beginning of the dream, to have a full story about itself. And if it needs references in terms of what has actually happened, it is the ability to produce imagery which can convey that this is from the past, you see. What is memory? Memory never shows up from the past; it only appears in the present, and yet we call it the past, you see. So really speaking, without these conceptual notions, the mental idea of time, which is linear in the way of past, present, and future, it doesn't exist, you see.

And the tool that we use to try and understand time, which is the mind, is totally incapable of understanding it. Just like it cannot understand truth and love and peace—anything that is worthwhile, it cannot understand. So as you let go of your mind and learn to remain in your heart, then you will meet yourself in a broader way where you don't have an objective relationship with time, you see. And therefore then time, where everything can all happen at the same time, but actually then there's nothing called a happening in the first place, you see. Then these kind of things don't confuse us; they can seem very, very obvious to us, you see.

So this linear navigation of the narrative using our attention is just like reading a comic book, you see. Just reading frames of a comic book which give the apparent belief that the comic characters are going through this in time, you see. Actually, it is just a question of perception, you see, with attention, which gives this sort of feeling or not even a feeling, but idea of time. But actually, like you said, it's only one frame. It's only one frame. But because our attention is limited, the ability of our attention to encapsulate all of perception seems to be limited, and that's why we seem to live this comic book life.

Frames of a comic book which give the apparent belief that the comic characters are going through this in time, you see. Actually, it is just a question of perception, you see, with attention which gives this sort of feeling—or not even a feeling, but idea of time. But actually, like you said, it's only one frame. It's only one frame, but because our attention is limited, the ability of our attention to encapsulate all of perception seems to be limited, and that's why we seem to live this comic book life where we're just consuming life frame by frame. As we let go of our conceptual limitation, then the entirety of the comic is available, you see, and you can visit it this way, that way, jumping around; it doesn't really matter.

I'm not saying it as some sort of a siddhi or superpower or something. I'm just saying that we are no longer then so attached to this linear narrative of time, and then the experience of consciousness can seem broader and not so constricted by this linearity. But these are beautiful contemplations and they bring us to this point where we realize that the limited conceptual mind that we have is unable to fathom the broadness of our own being, you see, both in terms of the extent of it and the seeming play of our past and future.

So, it's a beautiful thing and I'm inviting you more and more—you're asking some very beautiful questions—now allow those questions to bring you to your intuition where all of this is so, so apparent, but it continues to remain unspeakable, you see. But you live, you rest in a deep knowing of the universality of your existence beyond the play of space and time, you see. It's so, so palpable. It's so true. Yes, thank you. Thank you.

Very welcome. How can you say that that monument was really constructed 500 years ago? We can't say; it could just be fresh. So consciousness has no need for time really, you see, except when it is playing the story of the jeevathma, the limited play of a limited consciousness, you see. Only as long as that is being played out, then this idea of time is important. Otherwise, this whole universe can be up and down in no time.

Yes, yes. This is what is experienced here too, right?

So I just... just some time when I go through an old city or street and then just this comes up like, but who knows that this is really... it says like it's 1400, but I just experienced it now. So it can be built right now, or it's just happening now and only now. This is what this experience is. Yeah, but thank you so much.

Very good, thank you. And also, also bring it closer to home, you see. Also contemplation closer to home, which you're doing, I'm sure, because we don't need to just look at the monuments and ask that. We can look at these monuments also. Yes, now all the conditions that go along with that which we attach to the body-mind and see whether we can really be sure, you see. Because we carry so much guilt and resentment and so many things apparently that happened in the past. Can we really know that this is not the first moment in this waking state that I've ever experienced on this realm? We can never say. We can never say. Then we are left so, so empty, so open, so innocent, just like an infant child.

I used to joke earlier with the Sangha that, okay, now there are two variables which make the construct of a limited life seem true, you see. The two constructs are space and time. So your job is to give up one of them. You choose which one you want to give up, and you realize that it's not possible to give up one without the other, you see. If you give up on time, then there is nothing you can say about space. If you give up on space, there's nothing you can say about time. So, but to give up on this notional space-time continuum, or whatever it's called in science, as something that contains us is very important. Thank you.

Oh, welcome. Love you. Thank you.

Okay, let's go to Liam. Namaste.

So, I've been wanting to connect with you in this way. I don't know really if I will be able to express myself, but on one hand, the first question I was bringing was something similar to this first question, observing like the grasping, you know? Like I was seeing a past conversation we had where you saw something like open beyond the notion of being open, and I was contemplating this position of like trying to grasp the truth on one hand. And in the other hand, like this past time, I feel that something is kind of deepening a bit and seeing that kind of everything, all this is coming to... and I know, like giving that time to see this, to stay with this, like everything is coming to an apparent 'I'. Everything...

Just expand on everything.

Yes, like every seeming problem, like if I feel sad or angry or whatever, like the inquiry is coming like, 'Okay, but this is coming to an I, to me, is coming to me, to someone,' you know? And like stay, and more than trying to in that moment trying to grasp what is true or trying to grasp a solution, like apply something like more like a technique to observe like, where is that one that this is coming from, you know?

Yes, yes, yes. So let's look at that and let's see if I understood what you're saying. So in the play of life, you see, you're not saying that the play of life is appearing to the 'I'. All the appearances are just consciousness playing with itself. But the seeming interventions or problems or pride or guilt or arrogance, they belong to an individualized 'I', you see. So we can say that life is just life playing with itself, or the consciousness is just consciousness playing with itself, except when it takes on the subtitles or the interpretations of what is happening, you see. In that aspect of the play, it is consciousness which takes itself to be a limited individual, the small 'I', you see. Only in that aspect. Otherwise, this world is there for consciousness to enjoy as consciousness itself, for you to enjoy as consciousness itself, you see.

But when you look at it through the lens of limited concepts, through the lens of ignorance, then you take yourself... so when you're looking through that lens, you see, what is happening is first we are taking the observer to be a limited entity, you see, which is never true. And then we are trying to find out what is appearing in our world of perception that can help this limited entity. 'What's in it for me?' which I call the maha mantra of the ego, you see, which is 'What's in it for me?' So that is the only aspect of this play which seems to have the protagonist as the small 'I', you see. So as you're empty of that lens, all is appearing to consciousness for consciousness, you see. Was that your question? No? Was there something... did I understand?

Yes, exactly. It feels like that limited position, it's like always the 'I' that can be inside a narrative, you know? It's always that 'I' that it's combined with something and, you know, comes like a story that can be bought by consciousness.

Yes, narrative. Once we are in the... when we take the narrative to be true, then we must be taking the personal 'I' to be true. Yes, like Guruji often says, 'Who are you without your story?'

Yes. Yeah, but maybe the thing is what I was trying to express, that in that moment where something feels like it's a seeming problem, it appears a narrative that seems to be true, but when the inquiry comes, the apparent one for whom that narrative is cannot be... it's not here, you know?

Exactly, exactly, exactly. There is no hero or heroine of the movie, you see. Without the movie, without the story, there is no central character. Without the story, it is a story which makes this central character, and the idea of the central character which gives life to more and more of the story. Without any story, who are you now?

Yes. Anything that can be said, maybe it would be like putting this inside something, no?

Yeah, it does, mostly especially when we try to make sense. Very good, very good, very good. Thank you, thank you. I hope your class is going well. It started or no? The design thinking, was it?

Yes, it actually is starting next week.

Ah, next week.

Yeah, yeah. We've been these months like preparing everything and next week start like the live classes.

Very good, very good, very good idea. Thank you so much. Thank you, India. Okay, let's go to Nupur because she had her hand up last week but I wasn't able to go to her, so let's... she's been waiting. Hello, Father.

Hello, my dear. Are you... where are you? At an airport or something?

My father has come out and had to come out and ask, but can you hear me? Yes, yes, I can hear you. Yeah, yes. Okay, thank you, Father. I might have to wear the mask again, but yeah, it's fine. Father, there is this incessant thinking and fear-based thinking that's coming up more and more, and there's a recognition of it, but there is an inability to step out of it. And the story, this story seems to be becoming like, you know, very important even though I see it's the mind playing, but there is a sense of attachment to that.

Okay, so let's take this as a live experiment. Suppose I am the mind and I am saying, 'Okay, now you have to be very careful, otherwise this will happen to you. You know, if you're not really, really careful now, you better stay out of trouble,' you see? Fearful. So the worst possible is going to happen. So all these messages coming. So how are you in it? All these messages are coming from the mind. Suppose that was the mind. When you... so you say it's very difficult to step back from it, but how are you in it?

I am not in it. I can see them.

Yeah, then already you answered the question. So not so difficult then to step back from it because you can never step into it actually. What would stepping back from it look like?

Seeing them come and go.

Yes. Can you ever see them come and stay? But when it feels like on a loop, repeating, repeat happening, then it feels as if... so to step back would be that there is no loop? Would stepping back mean that it cannot repeat now, it has to be on shuffle, not on loop? It doesn't matter, no? If the thought is saying the same thing a hundred times or a hundred different thoughts are coming, it doesn't really matter. What to do with the thought which says that the thought itself should change? That's also a thought, another thought.

As long as we try and meet thoughts as somebody, you see, we may find it difficult to deal with them because for somebody there will always be some part of the story which will be compelling. Because somebody is made up of stories, like we were just saying. So something which can add value to that story or add further nurturing to that story will always be compelling from that mode of somebodiness, you see. But if you meet your thoughts as consciousness itself, then you cannot be held hostage. God cannot be held hostage to its own creation, you see.

So how to meet God? Trying to stay as empty as you say, Father, open and empty.

Yes, and what effort does that need?

No effort actually.

So God is your very being right now. This very consciousness which is your beingness right now is already here. It has no limitation, it has nowhere to go, nothing to do. It's just fine, you see. Only problem is that you cannot make a story. Like, what do we lose when we lose the mind or we lose the reliance on the mind, you see? If we become independent of the mind, what do we really lose? That we can no longer insert our life into some sort of linear story. As they say, 'What's happening to you?' 'Oh, I can't say.' And that seems like terrible news because it feels like we've got into the notion that the meaning that we can give to this life is the meaning that we can narrate about it, you see. But it's not like that.

Yes, Father. It's just that this is coming intensely, so I thought I'll just put it out and expose this.

Yes, that's good. And not something that I have observed happen often, but this is something I observed.

We try to convert our life into some sort of linear story. As they say, 'What's happening to you?' 'Oh, I can't say.' And that seemed like terrible news because it feels like we've got into the notion that the meaning that we can give to this life is the meaning that we can narrate about it, you see? But it's not like that.

Yes, Father. It's just that this is coming intensely, so I thought I'll just put it out and expose this. Yes, that's good. And not something that I have observed happen often, but this is something I observed now, so yeah, the last few days. And fear-based as well, you know. Very... the narrative of the spiritual seeker is dropped, or no?

Yes, the narrative of progress, of remaining... that's still there for me.

The remaining is remaining? Or the idea that I have to remain is remaining?

I have to remain, I have to remain. The 'I' has to remain as remaining. Maybe the 'I' is... maybe the small 'I' is remaining based on just that idea, probably. And some fear can come because we can feel like, 'But this was my policeman, no? Without this, I'll just go berserk. Like, I'll just become so personal. Who will help me stay as the Self?' But who is the one that we are guarding? The thief.

Yes, the police. Oh God, Father. So I'm exposed at your feet. I still don't want to deal with it. I just want to let go.

The best way to deal with it is to let go. Yes, okay. Let's go to... let's go to Arvind. Yes, my dear.

Not able to speak. All right, thank you. Welcome, welcome. Um, you know, I have to thank you because I feel like the last couple of weeks have been very helpful for me. I feel like I'm in a better state of, you know, stability and, you know, feeling a lot more spacious and, you know, sometimes feel, you know, dissolution of thought and, you know, and sort of a connectedness with, you know, 360-degree connectedness with what's around me. So, so grateful for that because it's, you know, it's definitely a very serene place to be. So, you know, it's... so thank you.

Welcome.

I have a something... you know, I know you've spoken about this, so I have an instinct as to, you know, perhaps what you'll say, but I'd still like to, you know, kind of shove it out there and so, yeah, and hear your reaction. And which is around, you know, basically the how and what, you know, of interacting, you know, with others, right? So, um, so certainly I feel I feel good, right? As you said, you know, you feel like you've got a bath from the inside, right? So it's a great self-indulgence, right? I mean, to use a term. Is it affecting, you know, um, you know, is it making me a better being in terms of how I'm, you know, interacting with people around me? And also this other annoying, you know, feeling because, you know, we are, you know, the most fortunate in the sense that we have the luxury of, you know, the time, you know, to be able to, you know, to give to ourselves. And, you know, this is really the ultimate luxury. Yeah. But, you know, uh, what we're not doing or doing or not doing for others who are not, you know, one particularly at this time or afflicted. And I just, you know, I have this this annoying feeling as to am I, you know, you know... I mean, I guess to put it very crudely, right? I mean, you know, somebody might get their kicks out of, you know, playing a sport or, you know, going shopping or something which makes them okay, gives us... and I'm and I'm feeling like I'm feeling very happy and serene, but am I doing anything for the world or the people around me? Is my, you know, conduct improving? Yeah. Uh, because I do have these flashes where, you know, I do get irritated, I do, you know, uh, whatever it is, you know, I do react. I'm I'm sure I'm, you know, I do cause, you know, a certain pain to other people and I say, 'Okay fine, you know, maybe this is just the way it was meant to be.' I didn't think about it, I just reacted. And I'm not, you know, really giving all of myself that I could be for any for other people. I'm still very much centered on how do I, you know, kind of how do I in some senses feel more serene? Yeah, right? How do I, you know, all that. But again, is it is it back to 'I'? Whereas if I'm really everything, right, then I should be feeling the pain of, you know, the person with COVID who's next to me or the person who doesn't... can't get medicine. And, you know, I'm not really doing candidly anything for that. I'm spending my time on trying to make myself more blissful. Yes. So, so, so I just, you know, just love your your thoughts on this, please.

Yes, yes. Okay, so let's look at this. There are various ways we can enter into it. Let's see what shows up. Firstly, I want to say that we don't really know how to help another. No, we don't really know what is helpful to another. We can only follow our heart and say, 'This is what's arising from it,' and hope that the Master's grace helps that one. But one thing we can fairly approximate pretty conclusively is to say that we can only give what we have, you see? So if our if our intention or our feeling in our heart over here, drawn by some sort of seva to the world, trying to help the world or even our neighbor in some way, we cannot at all hope to give them what we ourself do not have, you see? And what is the world clamoring for? No matter what the circumstances may be, no matter what else may be happening, you see, they're clamoring for some peace. They're clamoring for some end of suffering, you see? To to experience um just not suffering is, I feel like, the foremost help that we can give to the world. But it is not possible for us to share that unless we have it for ourselves, you see?

So all the other things that we can give—money—like, we don't know what is going to happen with that. Will that actually be helpful for the one that we we give to? Uh, you know, anything that materially we can give to another, we don't know what direction that can take, you see? There are many examples of this. Like in Rishikesh, we had one of our sangha sisters who came from overseas and there was this man who had no income. So she said, 'Okay, I'm going to send them 20,000 a month' or something like this. And what it what happened is that that man started drinking and took to drugs and things. So the family was saying that it was much better before this money started coming in, you know? So we can't say. And of course, others could have been helped much more because because by getting that money. So we can't really predict.

So what is it that that we can help the world independent of whatever else may be the byproducts of it or not? If we can bring some someone to the end of their suffering, that for me seems to be like a beautiful way to be be of service in this world, you see? Now, this is not to say that I'm in opposition to every every other form of seva and suffering. Like, we've been trying to help the COVID patients and we've done some things there as well. But I'm saying that those have to be done um with the surrender to Master's grace and say, 'Okay, may all this financial help, may all this physical help, may all of this go towards what is the most auspicious for the recipient of that,' you see? But to bring one to the end of their suffering is probably the or possibly the highest help that we can do to another, we can give to another. But that is only possible when we when we have not experienced this kind of psychological suffering for ourselves firstly. Like, we cannot claim to lead another to it, um, you know, without having the taste of it ourselves.

So, so and everything else is transient, you see? Everything else that we may give to others is is um there today but is gone tomorrow. This um showing them the deathless reality of what they are is is timeless, you see? Is beyond this construct of space and time. So so if we are going to help the world, we have to start with ourselves, you see? If you're going to help others in this way, there's no way to do it without first tasting that for ourselves, you see? Because if you say, 'Okay, now I'm going to give you some advice, just start doing this,' the first question that will come is, 'What? Have you tried it? Has this worked for you? What are the effects that you have found?' You see? So so and in that way, you become a living embodiment of that which you're sharing them. It goes from being mere philosophy to actually being a digested truth that you're then an instrument of sharing, you see?

So the greatest gift that you can give to the world is first come to the end of suffering for yourself. Because what will happen is that that will immediately help all those around you. Because suffering is not really an individual experience. If you suffer, your family will suffer, the people around you will suffer, the people that you interact with at work will suffer, because you're not going to be the the open presence that everybody truly wants to meet, you see? You're going to be caught up in your own ideas and limitations. So the greatest service we can start with is to give ourselves this gift that we want to give others, you see? And and I wouldn't call that... like, many times those in this kind of satsang are called selfish, you know? But it's not the smallest selfish, you see? They call it they when they're putting you down, of course, they're saying small selfish, but actually I would say it's a very auspicious thing to use even this time where there's so much apparent suffering in the world to to use that as an opportunity to rid oneself of their suffering, to come to the recognition of their true nature, of that which is real about them. It is the most auspicious gift you can give to yourself and to the world because then that shining light which is which has come to their true Buddha nature will also share that organically, you see, in everyone who comes in touch with your presence.

So so please don't feel guilty about it. I am completely familiar with this kind of mind tactic, you see? Because there were times where um where the the stated goal in life was to really work very hard and to grow my work and business and things. But here the the the sort of impulse to come to self-recognition started becoming so strong that the mind would play this trick at times and say, 'But shouldn't you be working? Shouldn't you be doing this? You have a team of people, you have employees, you see? What are you doing for them? Isn't this so selfish?' So I'm familiar with that line of thinking, but it's not not at all credible. Was there a part B to what you were saying? Sorry, I forgot.

Yeah, um, so I think, you know, alluded to it. I think you said digest the experience, you know. In other words, it has to go from, you know, a philosophy to, you know, your own authentic experience, right? I mean, I think that's that's that's incredibly important. And the distinction is, you know, is subtle. In other words, you can, you know, uh, imagine yourself to know to knowing something which you don't really know. Yeah, I think so. How do you how do you come to, you know, uh, how does one come to a point where, you know, um, you've authentically experienced some... you know, you know, how do you come to the recognition? Yes, now as I suppose there is nothing to recognize. I guess there's an argument there's nothing to recognize. But how do you draw a distinction between, you know, rote learning and true insight in this journey?

Yes, yes. So that's a good question and that that is what I want to emphasize over and over in satsang here today is the direct insight, the intuitive experience of your true Self. That is what all of this is for. So of course, the ability to to have conceptual knowledge about this is with everyone. There is enough—you search Advaita Vedanta on the internet or you search and research any form of spirituality and everything that you could possibly consume and forget one lifetime and multiple lifetimes will show up for you, you see? So what is the distinction between, like you said, conceptually knowing something, having the concept 'I am Brahman,' and for that to be truly truly recognized, you see? What is the distinction between the two? Now now, um, I wonder if you were here when we did the four bowls? Did we do the four bowls while you were here? Okay, so maybe I... I'm a recent entrant. Okay, so we'll recap that.

Everything that you could possibly consume and forget—one lifetime and multiple lifetimes—will show up for you, you see. So what is the distinction between, like you said, conceptually knowing something, having the concept 'I am Brahman,' and for that to be truly, truly recognized? You see, what is the distinction between the two? Now, I wonder if you were here when we did the four bowls? Did we do the four bowls while you were here? Okay, so maybe I'm a recent entrant. Okay, so we'll recap that for you, and we'll just connect the power before we do that. All right, am I still audible? Do I need to increase the volume or it's fine? That's fine. Okay.

So over the years, of course, I provided many, many tips as to how does one come to a true recognition of the Self. And in fact, we are going to start working on a project where we will compile some of these tips and tactics in a way to share with everyone, so that it gives them like a contemplation booklet or something that we can use. But recently, maybe a month or two ago, let's put this on—this came up as I was sharing. I feel like I was sharing with Ruchika first time, and it just came up organically, and I felt like this pointer was very helpful.

So what we did is we said that we are looking for true self-knowledge, you see. We are looking for that which is true self-knowledge. And sages like Bhagwan very clearly told us that self-knowledge is not something that you will gain or you will attain; it is in the absence of false knowledge. In the absence of ignorance, self-knowledge is completely already apparent or available. So how is it that we can come to this seeing? How is it that we can come to this recognition? And it's a strange conundrum because it's always there, and yet it is also a recognition, you see. It's never lost, and yet it seems to be gained, you see, no? But not in reality.

So this sort of construct or thought experiment came here, which I feel like could be helpful to everyone, you see. So we're looking for self-knowledge, and the idea is to let go of all that is false knowledge. So all the knowledge that we have through our perceptions, you see—everything that we know because we perceive it to be that way—we can put it in the first bowl, you see. This is the exercise of the four bowls. So every knowledge that we have attained or gained through perception, we can allow that to go in the first bowl, you see. Like, 'I'm sitting on a chair, there's a computer in front of me.' All that we think we know as a result of perceiving, we can just keep that aside.

Now, there is another set of knowledge that we have which is not based on perception, but it is purely conceptual, you see. Like conceptual knowledge is that it is the Earth which revolves around the Sun. It is, you see, what is the other examples? So everything that we think we know but we haven't actually perceived that we think we know. We think we know that it is the Earth that goes around the Sun, but actually in our perception, we see that it is the Sun that goes around the Earth. So everything that we think we know conceptually, we put in the second bowl, you see. So first bowl: everything that we know through perception. Second bowl: everything that we know through concepts.

In the third bowl, we put everything that we think we want, you see. Although our desire is also perceived, but yet it's important to create a separate bowl for those so that it can be kept aside. The spiritual desire often gets the better of us. So now, in which bowl did you go? Did you go in the bowl of perception? Did you go in the bowl of conceptual knowledge? Did you go in the bowl of desire? Where did you go? What remains to go in the fourth bowl? So thank you for the reminder; I was wondering what's happening, you see.

So I have a question which I call 'the hammer.' The hammer along with the four bowls, which is: Are you aware now? Which question I'm sure you've heard in satsang. Now, the recognition of that awareness, in which bowl can it go? Do you perceive this awareness? Is it just a concept for you? Okay. And who is the one that is aware of this awareness? One says emptiness is aware of awareness. And is there a distinction between that emptiness and awareness? So the recognition of the Self is that simple. It is that apparent. And mostly we trip up on the third bowl, which is: 'Okay, now what happens to me? How can I use this? How will my life change? Have I become enlightened?'

One says, 'Can I be awareness if I am aware of awareness?' As what are you aware of awareness? Is awareness a power that you have? Is it a force that is available to you? Is it something that you own? Is it an aspect of yourself? What is your relationship with this awareness? What's in it for you? How do you want your life to change? Is life yours, you see? So it is not usually—I found that in spiritual seekers, it is not the recognition which is difficult; it is the selfishness which is difficult, more difficult to let go of. And it's a very subtle sort of selfishness. It's very oppressive. 'Okay, now I had the recognition, I am this awareness. So now what?' Now what for whom? Still back in—we jumped right back into the personal narrative.

And many can have this sort of experience that they feel like they came to the recognition of this truth, everything was so nice and spacious, so spacious, and then suddenly it can feel like, 'Oh, I'm back,' you see. 'I thought I was done with this. Why did this come back for me?' You see, so if there's going to be personal ownership, then it's going to lead to personal struggle. And then the play of life—usually it is that the higher we climb as a person, the harder we fall, you see. So as we are coming to this intuitive insight, which is very obvious actually, if we try to carry this 'me' along, it is the development of the spiritual ego. And there is no other champion sufferer like the spiritual ego. Have you seen?

Now, over the past few weeks, I've pointed out so many things which only spiritual people suffer from, and apparently we came to spirituality to be free from suffering. So once we start owning our spiritual experiences individually, or our apparent spiritual progress individually, that is bound to end up squeezing us. That's why very often I used to say 'truth for truth's sake,' because if it is for the sake of anything else, it is bound to get squeezed out of us.

Father, the question 'What do you know when you know nothing?' takes me to a place more subtler than the question 'Am I aware?' Does this happen in your case also?

Kind of. How many cakes do the rainbow eat? Is good enough, huh? Anything that goes beyond the boundary of your intellect is enough. You don't need to create a level of hierarchy of the highest question and the lower question. So this—okay, some hands are already up, but I just want to do a quick poll in the audience and say: So this that I'm talking about, the direct insight of yourself as awareness, does it feel fairly obvious now? It feels fairly apparent or not? Yes, you can raise your physical hands if it does.

So this insight is fairly straightforward. If you try to insert it in any sort of narrative in any sort of selfish way, then it's going to become a burden, you see. And if you think that the world ego is a burden, then wait till you meet the spiritual one. All from the experience of this life. If you can fill in the blanks: 'Now that I am finding myself, this should not happen in my life,' you see, you're in trouble. Or, 'Now that I'm finding or have found myself, only this should happen in my life.' If you can fill in either of those blanks, you are in trouble. And remember that ego means we are limiting life in some way. If we have an idea of what should and should not be as a result of our spiritual endeavors, then that is just the ego.

There was a question in the chat that I missed: 'Dear Father, you speak about not taking any position. This might work well for someone who's already awakened. What about someone who, for instance, gets harmful thoughts to do things that we know as harmful? He or she might not take the position of not putting the thought into action then. If such a thought is put into action and it harms oneself and others... I know that life doesn't work like this, but request you to please elaborate on this.'

Okay, so even if we accept the notion that thought causes action, thought leads to action, which is not really true, you see. Both are caused by consciousness. Thought is an appearance in consciousness, action is an appearance in consciousness, and consciousness definitely does not rely on—need to rely on—one thing to create something else. So cause and effect is the same kind of mental narrative trying to make meaning or linearity out of something which is too broad to make linear, you see. So firstly, it is that, because it's not the way we think it is. Like we took an example earlier where we saw that this action, these words are coming, but there's no thought saying 'I should speak these words,' you see. And whether it's this mouth or another mouth, it doesn't really matter.

And it's the same for most of your actions; you will be able to very clearly see it. Your mind will still try to convince you that you did that particular thing only once you decided to execute a particular thought, but many times action is the opposite or it doesn't happen. So we cannot conclusively say that thought leads to action, you see. And what happens in that kind of construct is that we create the idea of an individual agent, an individual decision-maker, you see. Because God definitely doesn't need to rely on thought to act, you see. Then who are we talking about needing a thought to act? And that is not our experience also. If we just experiment with it openly, you will find that many actions happen without thoughts; many thoughts come which are not acted upon.

So firstly, there is that. Secondly, and this is an important point to me, is that the intellect has two opposites, you see. So in the intellect, it can feel like, 'Okay, harmful thoughts, harmful thoughts,' and then we feel like, 'Okay, we need to rely on the opposite of that: good thoughts, better thoughts,' you see, things which are positive. So then we feel like we have to keep fluctuating or oscillating between positive and negative. But that is an intellectual trap. And what I'm pointing to is a neutrality, because you are not a pendulum which can only go left or right; you can just remain in the center, you see. You don't rely on thought this way or that way.

And you're right in a way that the concepts of satsang and the words of satsang have no great intelligence or sanctity about them. It is just a neutralizing agent to the concepts which we may be holding, and ultimately they are as nonsensical as any condition that we might have as well. That's why we're not making any temples to the words; we're just using them as cleaning agents and discarding them. So even for one who gets harmful thoughts, it is possible for them to remain in a neutrality, you see. And of course, we have to trust grace with how that functions.

So I don't have a template how to deal with those who have harmful thoughts. If someone shows up in front of me who has a harmful thought, I just have to trust my heart in that moment to provide whatever guidance appears in this mouth, and hoping that grace works in the most auspicious way for that one. So there are many who get caught up in this sort of toxic positive thinking, you see. The positive self-help kind of thing can be very constrictive as well and not free. Negative conditions and constructs obviously can be very constructive as well. So it is not that one is better than the other one, but the notion that life or being itself—that is just so fully present here—needs to rely on one color of thoughts, either this way or that way, you see, that we can let go of. When you are neutral, and right now you are neutral in this very moment, you see, there is nothing missing. You don't need to consume words, you see. You are all that you will ever be.

And not free negative conditions and constructs—obviously can be very constructive as well. So it is not that one is better than the other one, but the notion that life or being itself, that is just so fully present here, needs to rely on one color of thoughts, either this way or that way, you see, that we can let go of. When you are neutral—and right now you are neutral in this very moment—you see there is nothing missing. You don't need to consume words, you see. You are all that you will ever be right here, right now. So only words that neutralize those conditions which seem to convince you that you are limited need to be heard provisionally before even they can be thrown away. Okay, let's go to Deeta. And I put my hand up and there was some question, but and then you... sorry.

So I saw that you put your hand up. Put your hand up when I asked. Let me just mute. Okay, let's try now. Now it's okay, right? Yes, much better. So, I noticed that you put your hand up when I asked about the intuitive insight of yourself as awareness. Now, because last time we were talking about who you are being very relevant to which problems deserve resolution, isn't it? So I was saying that if you're a giraffe and you spent your whole life solving cat problems, then that is not worthwhile. So first we have to discover what we truly are, and from that perspective, then we know if something can be a problem or is a problem or not. So if the insight is apparent to you that you are, in your reality, this Self or awareness, then what is the limiting condition for that awareness or problem?

First of all, I just want to close the window for hearing you, Father, because I removed the headphones. Okay, so no, no limited condition. Very good.

So now, to presume to have a problem, what is required to be done before you can have one? This is for everyone, not just for you. But before we get into the mode—and most of humanity seems to be living in this mode of trying to resolve something. Most are trying to resolve some meaning of life, you see, or how to lead a meaningful life, as life itself is fully meaningful, but not a meaning that the mind can understand, you see. But many are trying to solve these sort of non-existent problems. But once you see that you are this awareness, really without any qualities, without any attributes, and yet all qualities and attributes can come and go within you, now from that perspective, what needs resolution?

From this place, everything is just seen as just appearance. And whatever they carry, maybe a quality or feeling, it's just seen as just appearance.

Yeah, yeah. So I would strongly recommend this place—as long, I mean, you know, it's not a place-place, but just to use words.

I want to share something, Father, from that place, or my experience about this place.

Ah, okay. About this place is good. Is it okay? Yes, about this place is good. Because what can happen is the mind can keep tempting us to take other positions, other perspectives, and usually it says, 'But yes, from that place nothing happened, but however...' You see, I have to share this from my experience. You see, many times it gets us back into a paradigm which is not true, you see. But with that disclaimer, you can share. What is your experience with that place?

Okay, so I was sleeping and then, I don't know, during the sleep, it's just too clear, you know? Just, I don't know how to express, but let's say this place is incredibly clear. And it's just so incredibly clear that I'm not... I don't exist. It's just like pure seeing. And then something... sorry, that there was... it was just the seeing itself, like the recognition itself.

Good. Then how do you know about it? There was only pure seeing. No, and then you say, 'I was also not there,' you see? Then how do you know? Because you know, you have to be the pure seeing to know. It must be you, you see. But it is not either in the traditional way of thinking of the 'I.' It is not the small 'I.' It is the supreme, it is the Absolute 'I,' you see. Now, to this 'I,' to this 'I,' the whole world appears. And suppose the whole world is in turmoil and there are problems everywhere, everything is burning everywhere—what happened to this 'I'? Nothing. Is that bad news? No.

Does this... that the body-mind which seems to be central in the play of the world appearing, does this mean that that becomes inactive or passive somehow? That is not what I am sharing, you see. Many can hear it that way, but that is not what I am sharing. That although the ultimate reality is unmoved, you see, and untouched by whatever may be coming, by the birth and death of the universe, you see, it is untouched and unmoved, yet the instrument which seems to be central in the... as almost like the 3D glasses with which we see the world, this instrument can be active or passive. It is not a judgment either way about that. It's part of the world appearance as it appears. So can the dance of this flesh bucket mean something about the ultimate reality? May you please repeat?

Yes, so I'm saying, can the dance of this flesh bucket, this body, can that mean something about the ultimate reality? Can that mean something? May you please change some words for me to understand?

Yes, so I'm saying that whatever may be happening, you see, in the play of this body—so one day body is this way, this way, one day is happy, happy, you see, whatever way it may be—what does it mean for the reality of the pure seeing that you are? Now, what is the mind's job? The mind's job is to convince us that this worldly play, and especially what is happening with this particular one body appearance, means something really, you see. Like when we say, 'I'm really not lying, I'm telling you the truth, it is really like this,' you see, we are not speaking 'Really' with a capital R. We're still talking about 'really' with the small 'r.' Because for reality, nothing happened, you see.

And as long as we treat the small 'r'—the propositions or the notions from the mind—to mean that they are really applicable to what is, that is when we get true isness mixed up with what it is not. Actually, it is the make-believe. What is? The mind will try to convince you that, 'No, no, I want to be both. I want to be the ultimate reality, but I also want to be this,' you see. But the thing is, the Self is already playing both aspects of itself: the unmanifest and the manifest. It doesn't need any more duality. It is testing itself in all this manifest creation. In the moment of waking up, this whole universe is tasted. So it is getting that taste already. So don't let the mind convince you that you have to dance on both sides of the aisle or something.

You rest as your reality, and then you see the colors and flavors of the manifest don't go missing on you. They become even more vibrant. Because that is the fear, I know, that if I just live in that, there is nothing there, there is nothing, it will be so boring. Since what am I going to do? It's not my experience even now, but generally speaking, many can get scared of this kind of thing because they feel like, 'Oh, they're just a dark empty void,' you see. 'I don't want to live over there.'

Yes, sometimes it comes also, Father, like with the feeling of emptiness, you know? But like in general, because it's not my experience at all, like it cannot hold.

Yes, good. Now, now how do we know what our experience is? How do we know what our experience is? What our experience is, how do we know? Yes, it just appears. But what appears we cannot know. In what way? We can only think we know, but we can never really know the mind's proposals, our thoughts about what we think we know about experience. But the mind can never know. That's why I keep asking, 'What is this right now?' and nobody can give me a good answer. I know that, not really, just for dramatic effect. What is this right now? If we cannot know one moment, how can we say, 'I know about yesterday and my whole life and all of these things'?

How do we know our experience? The knowing which is inherent in experiencing itself, in perception itself, that is more than enough. You see, I don't know if it is too subtle what I am saying. So the intelligence which is inherent in the experiencing itself, in the perceiving itself, is more than enough. We don't need to then convert it into words, because those words go very far from the actual perceiving itself. Like we can say, 'Yesterday was a wonderful day, only beautiful things happened.' Not true, obviously. 'Yesterday was a terrible day, whole day only terrible things happen.' Not true. It is just using very, very broad strokes to try and paint a picture which is much more intricate than that.

And the biggest thing is that in all of those narratives of our apparent experience, we leave the one that is truly aware out of that narrative. We leave the one that is aware, you see, that is truly aware. We leave the pure seeing out of the narrative. I've never heard a story in which the central character was a pure seeing. Have you ever heard a story where the main character of the story was pure seeing? You cannot make it the main character because from its perspective, nothing has ever happened to it, you see. And the one to which something has happened doesn't ever exist. Only the one to which something seems to happen has never existed. No?

So the one that is, nothing can ever happen to it. The one that isn't, everything seems to happen to that, you see. And the choice that consciousness is making in this play is associating itself with its source, which is the reality, or with the made-up figment of its own imagination, which is the person. So the minute we say something happened to me, we're talking about that which we are not, you see. And we're taking on that perspective, and the claims come from a false idea about us knowing what happened to us or what our experience is. We can never know here what our experience is, actually. We can never even know perceptually, you see, because there can be so many illusions even in a sensory way.

So the meaning-making or the sense-making that we do, you see, using our mind, just keeps us on this road of being a character that we can never be. How can we know what our experiences are? What is the mode of knowledge that we can truly trust? Is it what our mind is telling us? Is it even what our senses are showing us? How do we know this is not a dream, like the cat and giraffe thing? No? They say King Janaka had a dream and then he woke up and he asked his master Ashtavakra, 'Master, please help me. Am I the butterfly who is now dreaming it is the king, or am I the king who dreamt it is the butterfly?' That has to be clarified first.

Suppose the king was trying to solve the butterfly problems: 'I don't have flowers to sit on.' He goes to the court, no? The king goes to court and says, 'I have a big problem. I'm trying to flap my wings but I'm not flying. I'm trying to sit on flowers but they're too small, they break when I sit on them.' You see? What are you talking about? You're not a butterfly, you're a king. So the mind's representations of who we are, do they really represent us? So don't rely on your report, on your own mental report, for what your experiences are. Rely on your experiences itself. If you have to rely, leave your perception. It's completely fine, you see. You don't have to judge it in any way. It can happen and it's very beautiful. It can play out as it is playing.

But the minute you try to encapsulate it in your conceptual knowing that 'this is what is happening to me,' that is where all the trouble starts, because this 'me' has never lived, you see. And especially when we say, 'I am going to speak about my experience of the pure reality,' then we are in trouble both ways, because not only can we not know what our experience is, but the pure reality doesn't have a quality that we can speak about. That's why the sleep example is probably the only way we can really talk about it. Am I just ranting on? All of you with me? So, but I'm just introducing you to the mental garbage, no? This...

This is where all the trouble starts because this 'me' has never lived, you see. And especially when we say, 'I am going to speak about my experience of the pure reality,' then we are in trouble both ways because not only can we not know what our experience is, but the pure reality doesn't have a quality that we can speak about. That's why the sleep example is probably the only way we can really talk about it. Am I just ranting on? Are all of you with me? So, but I'm just introducing you to the mental garbage, no? This is the mental garbage that all of us own because it comes with the claim of speaking something true about our life. Your life is too big, too fast, too magnificent for you to be able to report on it really. And you can try and give some clues, but if you become too attached to the interpretation, then we seem to miss out on the magnificence.

May we look at something, Father? I don't know if it is related with it, but I wanted to bring this to you.

Okay, what you have to do is you transcribe what I've said today, and then if a question can remain—and I'll be very curious to hear what question can remain after that—then on Monday or whenever, Friday, next Friday when we meet, I'll hear that question. Because I don't want you to leave what I've just told you. I feel like I've shared something really important and which cuts to the root of it, so I don't want either of us to get distracted from that. You can bring this again here to Father, huh?

What I will bring to you, you can bring this in this place. Like, I don't know, I just want to bring it.

Okay, what is that? What is the topic of what you're going to bring? Just tell me the topic before you bring it.

Feeling.

No, not today, because what I've shared with you is much beyond the level of feeling and not the content of feeling. I want to look like how can it turn into a trouble, how can feeling turn into a trouble? Even this, not at all. Because what I've shared with you, I would rather you repeat a bit of what you feel you heard from me.

Sorry, Father, can you repeat a bit of what you feel you heard from me?

That is better than the topic you have. I cannot repeat this at all. So do the transcript and then you tell me if that other question still is valid. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Yes, thank you so much. Not a punishment, okay? And it's for everyone. And I feel like many times it can happen that, like, I feel like I'm sharing something which is the greatest gift I have for you. Anything else will be lower than that. And yet, it can feel like the mind plays this trick on nothing, but that thing is still a relevant topic. So I feel like this bit of exercise that came up here will be helpful for all of us. So just to hear again and slowly at our own pace, because I can mumble sometimes, I speak so fast sometimes. So it's good once you're transcribing, you can pause and you can just assimilate those words because I feel like I'm sharing something which is really helpful.

You have given me the greatest blessing, Father, beyond my asking. So just thank you.

Okay, let's go to Hortense for a minute. Actually, I've been seeing her throughout and she seemed very happy now, so I don't feel like the question will still be there. But let's see. I've been wrong before many times, no?

The question in all this 'me' has been changed during Satsang. And when I don't remember really bad, I see this person with the conversation that you have with Sena. I see more clearly that I am not any of the movement. Yeah. Oh no, yeah. And so this thing, the idea identification movement maybe comes, and so we say, 'I'm identifying one more time.' This part not so clear. Can you repeat this one? When this movement of identification comes like this, I thought I see more and more clear with more and more distance, but it still happened in this identification thing or something. So when this happen, it's like I mean the person again or something like this.

How do you know?

I don't know really that this thoughts comes, so I feel that I want to finish.

Okay, let's wait for a moment. Let's pause. This is good. So does the arising of a thought make it true? No. So when the thought comes, 'Okay, the Master said don't identify as a person,' but obviously the thought will come and say, 'Oh, you are identifying as a person,' you see? Now, does the rising of the thought make it true that you are?

No, but maybe the raising of the thoughts or the movement of the illusion, it seems like it's real or something.

I'm very comfortable with that, as long as I'm not forced to understand and as long as I'm not forcing you to understand. It's beautiful.

I don't know. I feel like this have to finish and I try my best to this to happen.

If you did not have this project that this has to finish, what would you work on?

Yes, hi. But I feel that what about if the finishing of this project, if the permission of this project was just to meet the fear of being completely empty and alone with nowhere to go or nothing to do, you see? Maybe that is the finishing. I don't know because where I am, I am right now, no, in this form. This fear that you're talking about is promising something that is not here.

Yeah, so forget about it. Yeah, it's not here. It can't be true.

So I don't know what is happening, why this feeling of not complete or it's happening.

You are complete, more complete than complete can be right now. So this one, okay, the minute you put it in the mold of thinking, then it can seem to get blurry, it can seem to get contaminated, but not really. It's just a movement now with the camera, okay?

Okay, I don't know. Forget movement.

Nothing is moving. Yes, something is worrying about the movement. Leave stillness, leave movement. Both of them, you leave. Whatever they mean to you, leave it. It's fine.

Okay, I don't know what I am doing, Father. It's like, yeah, little, I don't know if it's right or wrong or...

Just throw the apple away. The apple is wrong, okay? No biting that apple of right and wrong, good and bad. Throw it away. The serpent has no power then. So right now, right now, all that is perceived, I am not. No, not even that. Just leave that also. Don't judge or interpret anything. No notion is needed.

Yes, but there is like a thoughts, like how do you know that you are not judging? What is your dream and what forces you to follow these thoughts? Nothing. No, the idea of the person feels like I don't know what to do.

If you had to pick between me and the thought, what would you pick? If you had to choose between me and a thought—that you mean your Father?

Don't pick the thought.

But who is picking the thoughts? You as consciousness, no? Who else is there?

Okay, I don't know what it means consciousness exactly, or the things of the world, even the words. So I don't know what it means really because I feel like when I was born, I come here and I saw the world and I feel like, 'What is happening here? What does this mean?'

What the hell is going on? Forget about it. Forget about it, okay? This is, say yourself any narrative, don't put yourself in any story because they will only trouble you.

Yes, but I enjoyed this one. I came out and this one was there: 'What is happening here? But where is my mommy?' or 'I want nothing.' Just like, 'What is going on?'

So you came up with existential angst. Yes, like you're born, say something, but it's not true. Why he said that I'm like this if I know it like that? Well, okay, that's good. Just let go of all the stories, you see. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Not this way, not that way, not up nor down. Just...

There is a feeling that maybe with you, the feeling that I am the person can go away more easily or more potent.

Just let go of all stories. Don't worry. Don't put yourself in any box. If you don't make any conceptual understanding, or 'with you like this, with someone like that,' it's not difficult. It's very easy. Like the sage Vashistha said, no? He said to be notionless is simpler than crushing a flower petal in your palm. Simpler than crushing that is to be notionless because you do nothing now. Because you don't cause nothing, nothing. Just forget about it. Thank you.

Thank you, Father. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay, let's go to Atma.

Hello, my dear. Hello, hello. Yeah, hello. I experienced something. I don't hear you that well right there. I had written something, but it was a request, but I will do it by email. But the prayer I wanted to share, so it's something else now. I felt some spontaneous impulse to talk about something and it followed me even if I'm struggling with the sound, and it followed me, it popped up somewhere and has remained until now. So it is just, I just try to hold it. It is about what makes the addiction to sound, you know? So what you are sharing today about what is real, what is not real. And you know, it came to me the joke of the man who is looking under the light in the evening. He's looking for something and doesn't find it. And I came and he asked him if I could help him, you know this story here? And after I couldn't help him and asked him, 'Where did you lose your key?' He said, 'Yeah, I'm losing my keys.' 'Where did you lose your keys?' 'Oh, they are there a bit further.' 'Okay, so let's go there.' And then he says, 'No, here there's light.' So that's the same with that time somehow. The addiction to Satsang is a bit like this because we are with you and then we feel we can connect to the real place and we want to be in the light for a while with you and because it is already kind of realization, even for a few seconds, you know? And it's beautiful. And so, I don't know where I want to go with this. I just felt to share this because so much of our story cannot find any place in that time. So we must find something else and let's see what comes out of the box, you know? And because we love to discover with you and we are not sure that we will be able to not to know, and we are sure, but you are sure that you will help us not to know. And so, and so that's the addiction maybe what I wanted to share. Thank you.

Thank you. Yes, yes, I feel the essence of what you're sharing. Thank you. Very sweet.

Yeah, it can resonate in many ways. It has been generating all the long time today in many ways. But yeah, the rest is actually personal and it's not interesting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, my love. Thank you so much.

Okay, let's go to the last one. Poonam to Zeda, when you were pointing around her. Can you hear me?

It's a bit broken, but let's continue. Let me improve as we go along. Okay, you were pointing her like the ownership of experience and before that I actually didn't realize this was it with me also. And during your pointing, I just realized two months ago I had beautiful this thing. I was just there. Maybe you can continue, let's hear. Okay, it was like I just need this thing and I think I was enjoying two months ago. What happened, I was there and I was experiencing that awareness very clearly. And during that experience, I reported to Ruchika also. I was writing it, it was happening. And I just wrote to her like, 'This is what is happening.' And it was so beautiful. I don't know when I slept or mind entered, I just cannot recall how it happened. After that, I was just not there and it was like so much troubling me, why I am not there. And after that, mind showed most dirtiest things which was within me, which I never, never saw in my life. And I could actually believe that this is within me. And I was so much arrogant, so much...

I reported to Ruchika also. I was writing it, it was happening, and I just wrote to her like, 'This is what is happening.' And it was so beautiful. I don't know when I slept or the mind entered; I just cannot recall how it happened. After that, I was just not there, and it was like so much troubling me why I am not there. After that, mind showed the most dirtiest things which were within me, which I never, never saw in my life. And I could actually believe that this is within me. I was so much arrogant. So much dirtier things were seen during the past two months, but I never realized that the ownership of my experience actually was the thing which was actually shown in a different, different way. Just now I realized like that causes so much arrogance in that, you know, 'Wow, I have experienced this.' Yeah, and after that, it was shown in material with, 'Yes, this is the way you have arrogance, you have this thing, you have this thing.' And I still, I don't know, I need to accept that. But just your pointing just made me realize, 'Yo, this was the thing you did, that is why you are not.' In fact, the smallest thing, when you say 'Are you aware?', it was working perfectly, and after that, it didn't work at all.

It's just not... no, it's fine. It's fine. We all go through this. We have spiritual experiences, sometimes awakening experiences, and the mind wants to own that also. And I'm very happy that grace showed you the possibility of arrogance, showed you the possibility of pride so quickly, because many times people can get stuck in it for lifetimes, you see. So I'm very glad that within a couple of months you have seen that whole cycle of the beauty of the insight, the becoming caught up in it, becoming arrogant about it, getting squeezed, nothing seems to be working, back to surrender, arms open. In two months, it's a great gift. It's a great gift. Some may take 2,000 years to go through that cycle; you've gone through it in two months. It's good enough. It's good enough.

But I felt like I will never reach there now.

Don't worry about it. That's my job. But you will not reach there with the potential for arrogance. Life is dropping it for you, you see. Life is dropping it for you very beautifully. Just try not to get in the way, that's all. And what would getting in the way mean? That you try to impose too much of your ideas on life. Life is doing everything. Don't try to manage it or try to dictate to it what should happen or what should not happen, okay? This is what I'm doing now. Loosen up. Just loosen up. Allow it to unfold. You'll be just fine. You'll be fine, okay? Very good. It's been full on and fully long. Let's close now.

You can hear one quick... did Radha learn the bhajan?

Not yet, no. It's, you know, she just got... yeah, it's a medical thing, so it's okay. No, Rashmani, I just... I'm so looking forward to hearing it. Okay, let's play this fun one.

Thank you all so much for being in satsang today. Satguru Mooji Ki Jai.