Everything That Is Needed Is Here, Without Needing Any Notion, Any Representation - 16th July 2021

Okay, quick thing, this caught my attention. Can we translate anything into words? Is the chat question. Well, can we put Delhi into the signboard of Delhi? The same way like we can't put Germany on the sign or the map that says Germany. So can it seem helpful from time to time as long as the sign seems helpful, you see, and it's pointing in the right way? But can it actually be conveyed in words, the truthiness of anything like that? I've been saying not really.

One says, 'Father, you are the master of deconstruction. Initial ego anger turns into joy and laughter.' Thank you, thank you. Because to construct is to construct the false, you see. Being as perfect as it is, to construct means to construct notions on top of that. To construct stories and narratives on top of that is ignorance. So to clean up the ignorance, as all the masters have told us, is the only task seemingly needed to be free. What would constructive be? It would be—we would have to start with the notion that what is, is incomplete in some way and therefore now either we have to build or find something that we can put on top of that, which is impossible. Or like Humpty Dumpty, all the pieces are broken and then we have to construct it again. Both of which are not at least aligned with my discovery of myself and my being. So it's just that sometimes there's some dust on the spectacles; you just clean them. That's what satsang is, so that you can see clearly.

Okay, how to be okay with the untranslatable? Everybody is asking questions on chat. Is that so that you don't have to do transcripts? Is there a rule like that? Okay, how to be okay with this untranslatableness of everything? You are okay with it. You're already okay with it. Nobody starts this moment right now saying, 'Okay, what does this mean?' You're fine.

Next one says, 'There is such a yearning in this heart to be with you. Not desire, not pain, not joy, not sadness, but something in between.' I love you so much. Love you too. This is good. Something undefinable and yet something seems like is drawn in a way like a longing or even... Okay, we have Adrian wants to come. Hello, Father.

Oh my god, just for having the courage to come up. Um, you don't have to do the transcript unless you want to. I'm contemplating a bit this thing about what is the line between my mind and the mind of others? Like, is there such a thing? And my feeling is that there is not.

That's a good contemplation. It's a very good contemplation because 'others', once you start contemplating like this, you will see that 'others' is just a notion in the mind, you see. What divides anything in this appearance from another apparent thing in this appearance is only a notion in the mind.

Yes. So maybe what needs to—I don't know how to put it in words—like in a way I feel that I have to transcend not only my mind or, you know, my mind, but the mind, the collective mind or something. I don't know. Because there is nothing as 'my mind'. There's no such thing as a collective.

If you really deconstruct, then you'll notice that collective is also a notion. 'My' is a notion. 'Other' is a notion. Collective is a notion. Mind is a notion. Consciousness is, Self is a notion. Awareness is a notion. Everything that is a thought is a thought.

Yeah, yeah. I feel that I have been caught a bit in this paradigm of my mind and my conditioning and, you know, my body-mind, that I have to—in the, you know, like looking at this, there is no such thing as me or other, you know, like just no notions just...

Yes. Now, very good. You know, these contemplations are very beautiful. And I just want to invite you into—like as a result of the contemplation, you could say, 'Yes, yes, there is my mind' or 'No, no, there is no mind,' you see. But when the masters say 'No, there isn't,' it is just to neutralize the 'Yes, there is.' It is not another position that there is no mind, you see. So then it leaves you with the neutrality which is absent of either of the opposites. And that's your natural state, and that's naturally how we are every moment. Use the contemplations so that you can recognize that the assertion notions are not true, but their opposites are also notions which are not true. So then that leaves you in an open end.

Sorry, couldn't get that last bit.

So this is a good point, so I'll elaborate on this. So sometimes you feel like, 'I'm going to contemplate and say, okay, is this a hand?' Say, okay, it's a notion and an emotion. Hand has to conform with the ideas. But actually, what is it that makes a hand a hand? Just the idea. So then we may take on a new notion saying, 'There is no hand,' you see. So you don't have to hold the opposite of that as if that is true. If there is no hand, then there is also not 'no hand'. I don't know how to communicate this, you see. Then it's not applicable. Not that there isn't a hand, but the whole thing is not applicable because there is no such thing as a hand or no hand. Either the presence or absence of something denotes a position, you see. But we are talking about that which is beyond the presence or absence of anything. Is there my mind? No. Is there not my mind? No. Is there others? No. I say not others? No. Everything? No. As the Zen masters say, 'Mu'. The universal answer for everything is 'Mu'. But they spell it M-U, and it means no.

Thank you. One more thing. Contemplating a bit, I heard the Guruji in a satsang saying that something like we shouldn't be comfortable in phenomenality. Like, you know, to become comfortable in phenomenality because—I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember exactly his words—but it was along these lines that if we're getting comfortable in phenomenality, like the urge to be free or something... We somehow—I can see this in my own case, you know—like there is a tendency to be comfortable in phenomenality, like to have no problems with my house, with my apartment, or with money, or with... But there has to be something more than this. Just, it's not just... I mean, the truth has to be something. Because I can see that if I become attached to these things, like, I will keep coming again and again after these things and, you know, like life after life and...

Yeah, I was laughing because we were talking about this multi-lifetime or the reincarnation thing just before this. We'll share some more about this. So we're reaching a level now where we talked about the circles and the squares, but there is an aspect of ourselves, the purest aspect of our being, where the circles are circled. They don't need to go through the lengths of the squares. So now, when as you're hearing the master's words, you don't have to take the effort to try and squeeze them into an understanding, because now you're coming in touch with that intuitive insight where everything is seen as it is, as it truly is. So that is the only place where the circle... So you can meet Guruji's words and the words of satsang through your heart, and you don't have to worry about whether... Thank you, thank you. Very happy to hear from you. Great. Okay, good. Let's go to Arvind. Seeing you after a couple of weeks.

Thank you. I just wanted to share a couple of feelings I have and see how they resonate with you and what your reaction might be. One is that I'm starting to feel like everything that we sense, that we see and we experience, is something that's synthesized inside our brain. So in other words, it's like, you know, it's like a microprocessor since it synthesized a lot of different inputs, you know, through the nervous system, through the sensors, and it's creating a virtual reality that's constantly running. And that the consciousness is a sort of, you know, is the sense of the senses. In other words, even for that reality to be created, you know, the master sense that gives life to your, you know, all your senses, to your brain, allows that running and operation to happen is in fact the universal and pure and stable consciousness. That's how I've been feeling. And the other thought I've also, you know, been feeling a little bit like...

One at a time, because this is a nice one and I'll focus by the time. So it sounds like a famous philosophical experiment, isn't it? The brain in the vat. And many have been contemplating this, but they come across this sort of intellectual incoherency in this example, which is that: so on one hand, if you say everything, everything that appears is appearing in the brain, no? So is the brain appearing in the brain also? Or where is that? If everything is in the brain, then where is the brain? So either we are saying like the Matrix thing, where there is another reality or another appearance, whatever we call it, in which we are plugged into like a machine or I don't know what it is, and then there is a brain thing there which is actually located there and in that all this is happening, you see.

You say everything that appears is appearing in the brain, no? So is the brain appearing in the brain also, or where is that? If everything is in the brain, then where is the brain? So either we are saying like the Matrix thing where there is another reality or another appearance, whatever we call it, in which we are plugged into like a machine or I don't know what it is, and then there is a brain thing there which is actually located there and in that all this is happening, you see? Now from the Vedantin perspective, or I can even say from direct experience, that this consciousness I Am needs no real backdrop except the non-phenomenality of the unmanifest aspect of the Self, you see? So that in our experience is the fundamental layer of our very being, and once that is there, then it needs no other apparatus to experience itself, you see? Otherwise we'll get into these kind of infinite regresses sort of thing. So if you say everything is a result of the hand and everything is out of the hand, then where does the hand appear? You see, it is also in time and space. So what is that time and space in which the rest of time and space appear?

So you notice that from your direct experience, what can we see? We can say that there is that which is beyond what is called phenomenal experience, which we may call deep sleep or highly meditative studies where there is no phenomena, and yet the awareness that there is no phenomena is completely apparent. Then there arises in this non-phenomenal purity, in a way to use words, there arises this sense of being, I Am-ness. And in the light of this consciousness, it just seems to play or just seem to manifest or project all of these appearances within itself. And as a framework—of course this framework is also just a framework and just to quieten the mind or quieten the intellect—but as a framework that seems more palatable to me. Of course, being completely provisional as every framework is, it seems more directly pointing to the direct experience that is universal than to presume that there may be a container of something and then there's a brain in that and within that, because all those are still these thought experiments too.

Yeah, I think just to paraphrase, I think what I feel along those lines through direct experience is that you know, you feel the feeling I Am and the spaciousness and the interconnectedness, and everything else appears as a kind of sensation soup. Yeah, like a swoop of sensations. In other words, you know, if you close your eyes, you just feel a lot of sensations. Now you can attribute labels to them. You can say this sensation means this is my head, this other sensation means this is my hand, the other sensation means this, you know? So these are my physical boundaries. But I don't know, because it's only sensations with floating labels. And sometimes, in fact, when you feel some energy flow, you're not even clear about the sensations; they tend to blur into a kind of, you know, that's why I call it soup. It tends to become like a soup of sensations. You're not really sure whether you're experiencing the exterior, the interior, no boundaries frankly. Sometimes you just feel boundary-less. So that's the direct experience, and yeah, I think so, just sharing that.

Very good. So fascinating. In your direct experience, do you feel that there's something missing?

I don't think the concept of missing actually seems to... it seems like an unanswerable question in that space. Is anything missing? You know, I mean, sometimes it feels almost like there is something there, like almost like, although you can't feel it or touch it or anything like that, but there's something that's omnipresent and it's very real everywhere. Sometimes it feels like a little bit like, I would say like you say, it's something like space or gravity. Like gravity, you know, you experience it although it doesn't react to any of your senses, but you experience the force. Or maybe when you say space, you know, it feels like there's nothing there, but an object comes in space and then it shines with all the energy that was in the space through all the energy, electromagnetism, all the light that you couldn't see unless it hit an object, then it starts to glow and show itself. So these sorts of feelings reveal themselves. I would say probably the purest one seems to be the sense that there is some something there in which all these sensations are just appearing, and the thing that's there is everywhere. In other words, there's only one thing that's everywhere and a whole lot of sensations are appearing. Maybe the brain is processing them into what I'm calling my life, and maybe there are billions and billions of such thought streams that are being processed all the time, directly. I don't know.

Let's have some... suppose you went to sleep tonight and when you woke up it was a Friday. And but actually in the dream, when the dream started it was a Friday, but it seemed like you woke up and the day started. Then you remembered, 'Oh, it's Ananta's satsang, I have this question about the brain I want to share with him and see what he feels,' you see? And then that dream character comes and asks this question and the answer comes that, 'Okay, now if you were to get a surgeon and to open up your skull, I promise you that there is no brain inside that.' And it will be true because it's just a dream character. And maybe a brain decides to show up in the head of a dream character also, but we can't truly say, isn't it? So which brain would we be talking about? About the body-mind which in the dream seems as tangible as this body-mind feels, you see? All the presence of pain and pleasure is there. So can we conclude on what brain there would be? What brain are we talking about? The one sleeping on the bed, the one who's on the surgeon's table in the dream, or it could be infinite?

It could be anything. I mean, it could be anything because you don't know where you are in that reference at all. In fact, you don't know where you are. You don't know whether you are dreaming everything. It's only basically at the end of the day just sensations.

Very good, very good. So the one that witnesses the presence or absence of sensation—so whether they witness just pure spaciousness or they witness a play of manifestations—how is that one recognized?

It's entirely still. Everything is just all these flickers, these sensations are appearing in it. It's entirely, entirely still and entirely... but even, and you know, I'm going to... yeah, sorry, a bit more, but still no movement would be perceived, isn't it?

Yes. So how is that? It perceives both stillness and movement. How is that recognized?

I mean, it's difficult to put into words. It's just a sense of the viewer. It's the sense again, it's only a sense, but it's the sense of the viewer, sort of the light through which, the light which views everything. And I use light because I don't have a better word, but it's a sense of the light. Like if I had the closest words I could put into it, it is the wall of light is looking down from, looking from omni-directionally and is able to witness it all. That's perceptually the closest I can get to answering what is it that can make out stillness or movement. That's just it.

And with which eyes do we see that? That you which is aware of either stillness or movement, with which eyes do we see that one?

I mean, it's only through the eyes of the, I guess the sense, you know, the sense I Am. It's only from that. In other words, if you feel as I feel, 'I am listening to you, I am interacting with you,' that's the same sense. It doesn't have to be in the body. It's the same sense I Am that's enveloping. But enveloping is also a difficult word because it's positionless. But that same sort of sense that there's the thing that's interacting is eventually vaster than the wall of light, and that's the one that you are, because that's the position, eventually undefinable position through which the perception is happening.

Yes. So what about the source of even I Am? Because even I Am ultimately is not a constant, isn't it?

It's not a constant. It's everywhere. In other words, this feeling is everywhere and all the sensations are... even the I Am sensation is appearing in, like the more defined I Am or the concentrated feeling of I Am, which I sometimes identify with being somewhere around the body, is again being seen in the vaster I Am which you can't put any boundaries to. That's sort of how I feel.

But what about the 'I' without that, independent even of 'Am'? Before I Am, what is he talking about? Or to put it even stronger, Maharaj said at one point, maybe closer to his final few years, he said, 'Don't worry about this I Am infection. This is the infection which is troubling you. It has got you into all of this mess. Forget about consciousness.' What are they talking about? Which is the 'I' which is 'Am-ing' and how is that to be found? You see, I Am. Nobody wakes up and says, 'Oh, I was asleep but now you are I Am.' See, 'I woke up.' Who said, 'Oh, you woke up'? 'I woke up.' How do we know it's 'I' that woke up? Which 'I' is that that woke up? Isn't it strange? Like if somebody woke up in front of us, as it apparently does in front of awareness, being wakes up. You say, 'Oh, you are.' How is it that we say, 'Oh, I Am'? Who is this 'I' which now is? I mean, so how to find that non-phenomenon? To find would mean it has a location, then therefore it's phenomenal.

So then what are we looking for in satsang? We say that you don't need to find this. I mean, you don't need to find it in that sense because what would you find? The truth of what you are is beyond the sense of existence or non-existence. So in a sense, there's a deeper existence than this existence itself. Truly the truth which is beyond all that is changing is this truth because even now, ultimately, even this I Am comes and goes. And this truth is simpler to find because actually 'find' does not apply there. This 'find' would mean some localization in time and space which is not possible.

I'm honestly lost.

Loss is not a bad thing. 'Lost' is not about me. 'Lost' is my first step actually. First means I am losing track of my conceptual understanding and that's when we are truly meeting. That's when we are truly meeting, where we are losing track of our conceptual understanding. Now continue to be lost, you see? And with the innocence of a child, tell me who is witnessing the perception of this hand? You are, you see? You are. So this 'I' that is aware of the perception of the hand, did you have to work hard to find it? Did we have to construct any paradigms and ideas to find it? See, it is that naked. It is that apparent. It is that clear. But the mind will constantly struggle with it because it didn't find anything. It needs a quality or an attribute. So the Nirguna, without attribute, is beyond it. It will keep questioning you saying, 'But you didn't find anything. What is it? This can't be it,' or 'Is that it?' You see, that which it has no idea about, it has no trouble trying to attack. So without relying on any idea that we may have of the construct of any of this, it is that simple. It is that apparent. Now that 'I' which is aware of all perceptions, the you which is aware of all perceptions, what can we say?

It needs a quality or an attribute, so the Nirguna without attribute is beyond it. So it will keep questioning you, saying, 'But you didn't find anything. What is it? This can't be it,' or 'Is that it?' You see, that which it has no idea about, it has no trouble trying to attack. So, without relying on any idea that we may have of the construct of any of this, it is that simple. It is that apparent. Now, that 'I' which is aware of all perceptions—the 'you' which is aware of all perceptions—what can we say about that? Nothing. And yet it is not a negative nothing, like what's on the floor, I think, you see? It's not like that kind of negative nothing. It is just that it is so beyond all attributes and qualities, and yet we call it 'I.' All other representations of 'I,' they come and go, but this does not. So from that perspective, we sometimes say it's the highest 'I' or the Absolute or the Self, but it itself is so beyond all of these attributes and constructs, even beyond 'I am.' And the same innocence with which we can simply answer, 'I am aware of your hand. Who else? I.' That is where we have to stay. We do not need any effort. Perception cannot help us there because you do not perceive this 'I' that is aware. Concepts don't help us there, you see, because then that becomes all sticky and just bookish. It's just fresh. Of course, if I say to you, 'No, no, it's not you that is aware of this hand,' see what are you saying? Of course I am aware. That which you are trying to get to, if that is negative, you see, you will yourself affirm its reality.

Thank you. I think what I'm just taking away is to stop thinking about any—in fact, just start trying to stop thinking period, and then just, you know, just let it flow, I guess.

Yeah, just let life flow. I mean, the complexity comes because we do have to use all our faculties in our day-to-day life. We have to use our faculties for structured thinking, problem-solving, analysis, and all that. So it's, you know, difficult to say, 'Let me be completely... let me not do anything which involves structured thinking.' But at the same time, I understand that, you know, just reduce it to the minimum and just go with instinct. Is that maybe... is that oversimplified or an accurate takeaway from what you're suggesting?

Suppose you didn't have this takeaway, how would you do? Okay, so this is the... this is like an introduction to the nakedness or the openness of the emptiness. Because we feel like in every interaction, in everything that we see, we feel like we must go with some conclusion, some understanding, something that brings us closer to the truth. And little do we understand that that conclusion itself is the piece of speck of dirt which is getting in our eyes. So don't take away that, although it sounded nice. I'm not discounting that, but I'm saying just even if you leave that, you don't need to take away anything. Allow yourself to just remain open and empty, and when something is needed, it will show up. Otherwise, you can always go and complain to God: 'I left it to you and you messed it up.'

Thank you. Very good. I really understand. I think it's about letting yourself rest.

Yeah, just finding... being in a state of rest. Okay, now not even that. Okay, then that's when the fun starts, when it's not even that. I'm not even... okay. Hands, and let's go to George. Did I say correctly? Very good, yes.

Oh, thank you. Very good. Hello, hello. Wait, wait. Nice to meet you and see you, Father. Um, oh, I got caught so quick. I'm totally unprepared. Uh, I take off... you still hear me? Yes, yes, better. Okay, because, yeah. Um, yes, I just wanted to come up because actually, um, life is, I feel, quite good and, um, I don't know how to put it. It's so... this is nearly new that I really feel also bodily and so, more and more, I feel like, um, grounded, you know? Yeah, and evened out. And so, of course, I'm very grateful for that. And but also it came already up today, um, not to settle for that. To be still on the plane or in the train of Satsang. Not to... to make sure, yeah, this...

Okay, how is it on opposite sides? Like, you can be at peace at all layers of your existence. Mind can be okay, body can be okay, family can be okay, everything can be okay, and you can still be in Satsang. Yes, we don't have to put them into opposite ends of the spectrum saying, 'No, no, don't settle for this, there has to be more,' you know, 'Come to Satsang, find more,' because then we are activating the seeker energy again, as if what is, is not enough. Yeah, it is enough.

It is. It's... and then the conclusion comes, but then, okay, then what am I supposed to do? Forget do or not do. There is no such thing as do, actually.

And I'm not trying to be Yoda from Star Wars. 'Do' is just an idea that we place on some movement that appears in the realm of appearances. And because we want to insert it into a narrative or a story, then we use these verbs like 'do,' 'see,' 'do,' 'go.' Somehow it is new and it feels beautiful, but not even... I don't know.

Yes, yes, we don't know. My Guru told me when I went up in the hot seat, 'Don't know,' because if you know, it messes it up anyway. I don't have to find words.

No, of course you don't. And yet if they come, they come. It's fine. Damn unexpected, he's good. This is the best conversation I've had. All of you, I am...

Yeah, the voice says I have to um make space because there's something important that people want to talk about. And so, but actually when I was on the hot seat, it was reminding me so much of that because the same thing the mind said, that I better make some space. And Guru said nobody wants to come, don't worry. The mind says I can't believe it, but it is nothing to believe. But nothing makes sense, actually. So it's neither sense nor nonsense.

Yeah, there's nothing you have to hold on to. There's nothing you have to retain. Yes, natural, open, empty. Very... let me go to... Google first? I haven't met him in a bit. Hello, my dear. How are you? Now the body is fully fine?

Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Yeah, good, very good, actually. How are you?

Good. Yeah.

I just felt like coming up. Yeah, I haven't spoken to you for a while. Um, yeah, you're living in London at the moment?

In London? No, no, I am living next to the sea, actually, at the moment, which is quite nice. Yeah, in England, though.

In England, yeah. Close to Gracie. Very close to Gracie, which is nice. Yeah, I suppose I can maybe report something kind of cool. Um, you remember last time we spoke? I think it was the last time we spoke, I was kind of struggling with something and it all felt very big and um, it's just gone, you know? It's like it's just dissolved completely. And uh, you know, that's happened a lot, but like this particular thing, you know, I can't remember exactly the words we spoke, but it was like it felt so huge that it was like, you know, just overwhelming, really. But it wasn't the case at all, you know? It's like... and so it's given me confidence, a lot of confidence, because, you know, so many things come and go all the time.

It's very good. That's very good because you are... it's actually more than confidence, because and more than even conviction, because you see it. Then it becomes so apparent that all these things, when they appear and because we have some conditions about them, they can seem to be so big. Everything comes and moves, everything comes and goes, and in my true reality, in my true nature, nothing really leaves a scar or an impact or something. So I'm left unhurt. Would you say that's the same recognition? Like, because it's, you know, in that moment of recognition that everything's passing, yeah, is that the same as recognizing the Self? Like, that there is this unchanging...

It has to rely on that, you see? Because it has to rely on that, because otherwise what is the reference point for 'everything is passing'? There must be something which is not passing with which we can then report, saying, 'Okay, everything is passing.' So even though it may not be like on a conscious exercise you're saying, 'Okay, okay, but there is an unchanging witness and that is not passing, but everything else is passing,' and yet it is impossible to say everything is passing unless we rely on that. Because if everything is passing, then you would... we are not saying, 'I am also passing along with it.' You see, 'everything is passing' and it comes and goes for me, for my reality. Yeah. And if you did not have that as an intuitive reference point to make that statement, you would say, 'Okay, I'm also passing along with it.' So then everything is not passing because they have to be all just in the river together. But your heart or intuition relies on the seeing that 'I remained unchangingly the witnessing of everything and there is nothing that really attacks my reality.' It just comes, it appears for a bit, and it goes. Sometimes it lingers longer, sometimes it doesn't linger so much, but it goes. It's beautiful to see these things because even the notion of, say, infinity—we've never had the experience of infinity phenomenally, and yet it is something that we can all relate to. It must be an intuitive reference point with which that makes sense, otherwise it would be a completely crazy notion. Yes, very, very good to see that. To contemplate this is also very good because, of course, we could be saying everything is passing because we've been told that. But like the report that you shared, something seemed so big and after a while, 'But I noticed that everything goes like this.' When it comes, there may be some apprehension about it, but it just goes. Embedded in that statement is that 'I remain untouched by it.' Otherwise, we would not say everything is passing, you see? But that recognition of remaining untouched is only possible in the intuitive recognition of the Self.

Yeah. So it's... would you say that... would you say like, because you said um, it's based on it, so obviously like that has to first of all be the recognition everything's changing? Well, maybe not, maybe not, but it seems like that's quite certainly in my experience, you know, that recognition everything's changing and then it's like, then arises, 'Okay, so what's not changing?' you know, very naturally. But it almost feels like that's a subsequent recognition because the intellect needs process. This is the second step.

And why I said it's based on that is because on the... just naked understanding of yourself, then if we impose or superimpose notions of time and 'thing-iness,' you see, then... then although it is pointing to that same and it's based on that same recognition of this error to say everything is passing, then we've imposed already the notions of time and objectiveness, objectivity in some way, which is okay. We have to, for communication, we have to impose some... you just say that last part again, sorry? So when we say everything is passing, we looked at how that has to be based on some intuitive sense of that which is not passing. But from that perspective, actually, from that—let's use the term pure perspective—it is impossible to say anything, including 'everything is passing,' because there is no 'thing' to be able to conclude that. But to use that as a reference point, you see, and then to be... for the purpose of communication, impose the regular notions of time and the objective nature of the appearance and passing are based on those notions which are imposed on that intuitive insight of the Self. And then we can see a statement like that, which of course is a pointer, is provisional, and yet it depends on a true Self-recognition.

Yeah, that resonates a lot because um, I think sometimes there's like... I experience maybe frustration or maybe even doubt because we're so used to um, processing what we realize through the mind and through language, and this just doesn't fit. And so sometimes it's like, 'Oh, well, maybe I haven't had that recognition,' there is... is what the mind... because I can't explain it to you or I can't find the right words. And actually, maybe it just never can be reduced, you know?

Very, very true, actually. I've been emphasizing this point and this is very, very important. It can never be reduced. I like the term you used. It can never be reduced to that level, you see. It can...

What we realize through the mind and through language, this just doesn't fit. And so sometimes it's like, 'Oh well, maybe I haven't had that recognition.' Is the mind real? Because I can't explain it to you or I can't find the right words. And actually, maybe it just never can be reduced, you know?

Very, very true. Actually, I've been emphasizing this point and this is very, very important: it can never be reduced. I like the term you used. It can never be reduced to that level, you see. It can never be reduced to the level of conceptualization and therefore an intellectual understanding. And that is, in a way, what I was trying to convey in my example of 'everything is circle.' Everything is circle, circles are true, but we can understand only square, square, square. So because of our conditioning, because of schooling, because of learning in the traditional methods in the world, we've been told that until you can make a square out of everything, you're not making progress, you're not getting anywhere, you see.

But this what we are finding in satsang, what we are coming to—simple, simple self-transmission—is only difficult because we can never convert it into a square, you see. Therefore, it can seem like, 'When will the search end? Is my search or are my insights even authentic?' So this kind of doubt can come because the mind will come and say, 'But tell me, what have you found?' Okay, I see that I don't come and go. 'Wait, how do you see? You don't see it.' You can doubt these things because actually you don't perceive it, and to the mind, all seeing means perceiving. The mind's seeing is really an innovation. So, but you don't see this 'I' and yet you recognize it with the deeper knowledge, you see.

With a simple question like 'Who's aware of the perception of this hand?' every each and every one of you is coming to self-recognition. Every one of you is coming to self-recognition and it's not alien to you or new to you, you see. But you're learning to let go of your mind's objections to try and make something like that.

Yeah, yeah, that's it absolutely. You've meant out of that or some attainment out of that.

Yeah, of that mind. Mind slavery is freedom. The need to come up with satisfactory answers for our mind is mental slavery.

Yeah, it's so fascinating because when you said that, what came to my mind is that, you know, if I go and look at my house and say, 'Okay, my house is painted yellow,' and then go inside, the chance of me suddenly five minutes later having a doubt like, 'Oh, maybe it's green actually,' and doubting what I've seen is very small. It doesn't crop up in my mind. And yet, to do with the recognition of what I am, it's like we've had so many beautiful moments where there's been so much clarity, and yet there's these persistent doubts which keep coming: 'Well, maybe, maybe, maybe you're not there yet. Maybe you haven't experienced the Self. How do you know?' And it's maybe that is just because it doesn't fit into experience and it doesn't fit into thought. And perhaps it's just a habit to continue to try and make it fit.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's interesting, really interesting. This is the nice one and this is what keeps tripping us up. So that's why sometimes we ask, 'So if you did have that recognition, what would be different?' And then the mind will say, 'Oh, there will be more peace.' But that has nothing to do with that which is beyond quality, because peace is also a quality. So you realize the shallowness of the mind when you reverse the question and say, 'Okay, so I haven't had the recognition. How would I know if I had had it? What evidence can I use to prove that I had had it?'

So all of you that you are recognizing yourself right now, how would you know that is true or not true? What benchmark, what comparative index can we use? Can we use something which is not phenomenal? And then the mind presents these super lame ideas of, 'Oh, if you had had the recognition that you are all there is—in fact, you are the light in which all there is appears—then one tiny aspect called a body in all there is would exhibit more peace or more light or something like that.' How silly is that, you see? So the mind's ideas of what freedom should be like are very far from the reality of the freedom that already is. There'll always be something wrong there that the mind can point to and say, 'Oh, that's evidence.' It's like that, you know.

That's when you're getting authentic. There'll be always something. Advice then is to not try to prove to the mind, not try to prove anything to the mind.

Yeah, it's like it's doomed. From the moment that the mind is engaged, it's doomed, isn't it?

Looking at it now, I see. I see that, yeah, exactly. There was something interesting that I wanted to share because I suppose like I noticed it's not really spoken about so much in satsang now, and I think that's also really cool, you know. But like, just on the level of the human being, let's say, you know, like that continual—it's like a reflection almost of—it's connected but not connected at the same time, that this recognition and then there's like a softening and there's a more kindness, more understanding, more compassion and that kind of thing.

And something that came to my awareness recently was like this old habit where—do you know what nagging means? I don't know if that's just a very local term here, but I really don't like being nagged by people, you know. It's like, and when I sort of observed it, it's like it was a feeling of like freedom being taken away from me, you know, as though freedom is something again phenomenal, like not having responsibilities and stuff. And what I've noticed, like just completely by itself, is you know, like there's been a few episodes recently where there's been this kind of sense of nagging and I see that old pull to just run away or to kind of close the door or to just, you know, wriggle out of it. And something in me just feels like, 'No, like stand with it, you know, be in it, like allow it.' And there's so much greater freedom in that. I can't explain it, but there's just this sense of real freedom of like no longer being controlled by what the personality or the persona likes or doesn't like, you know. It's just somehow so spacious even though it might be uncomfortable, you know. So I'm grateful for that because I really feel like...

You know, it's very good. In fact, we had a very nice conversation a few weeks ago with Mahesh about a similar thing where he was saying that sometimes you just get a message in a relationship, you just receive a message and you'll just be like, 'Oh, that's an attack, and I was feeling so nice and free, why did you have to say that?' And though the message was just 'Are you okay?' you know, just like that. But it could have been anything, it doesn't matter. And we had a nice chat about this and saying how even this can be met in so much openness without having to impose our ideas about what this means and what someone wants or doesn't want, and most importantly about trying to protect a particular state of freedom or space and the idea that something can come and infringe on that space or make us less free. It's a very nice contemplation.

Yeah, yeah, well it's really lovely, you know.

Isn't it funny that I was just mentioning you to my in-laws yesterday, you know? And I hope you won't mind me sharing this story, but I was talking to my in-laws and my father-in-law was in the army and so he likes his drinks and things like that, or used to when he was younger. So he was somehow talking about this topic and I was saying, 'No, no, I've never really had a drink.' He said, 'So Govinda is experimenting with barrels of water?' I didn't know something. And so one day he got to me these glasses or bottles, I don't know something, and he said, 'I'll try this.' And at that time there was some report had come about my kidneys or people were saying I need to improve my gut health and bacteria and something. So he said, 'Okay, try this, this is probiotic and no, I'm experimenting with just the right taste, so when you try it out...'

But of course I love to try out. So that night I remember I had a bit, maybe half the bottle or something. Usually I was going for walks every night before sleeping, and that day during a walk I was just feeling very sleepy, like I need to rest. So I just went to sleep and somewhere I felt like, 'Oh, there was something.' Let me talk to Govinda tomorrow to make the idea. 'Govinda, are you sure there was nothing in those drinks? Because you know, I felt a bit sleepy and are you sure it wasn't like alcoholic?' 'No, Father, it was so good, but I had so much of that.' He said, 'I had so much of that and I felt so energetic and so alive.' I feel like you had... and again after a week or something, 'Father, I think I might have gotten you drunk.'

So what happened? I was just because he was gonna do some business with him, just making notes. It was taking off yourself, she was testing and then making notes. He said, 'As I was doing this, I realized after a few sips and notes, I couldn't understand my notes anymore.' So what had happened apparently is that the sugar went the wrong way. Did the sugar can become like probiotics or bacteria? Fun time. You took it very well. What happened here actually, we have some Christian friends who are very close to us, so we call them uncles. In Christmas we used to go to the house and they would like insist that we have a little bit of wine. And what would happen after just that little bit of wine is I would just feel like singing. We came back home, I was still singing and going to sleep. So my experiences with this have not been terrible. So not that I'm going to make a habit.

How we got to the topic of this drink called Shiva's Regal and somebody said Shiva's Regal? Okay, it doesn't translate so well, you know. The satsang version of Shiva's... Shiva is really... it's been almost since we've had a lot of sangha in Bangalore and things and yeah, it's fun. It was nice to have all of you kids here, you know.

What's interesting, like obviously you know I'm looking forward to coming back to Bangalore and being with you all very much, but also like, you know, being in England here, there's just certain things that come up which I just—I'm so grateful for, you know. I don't feel like anything's missing like anywhere I go, you know. And it's amazing, it's really amazing. Thanks, Father, it's lovely to speak to you.

Love you too. Let's go to Atma.

Oh my dear, thank you. Yeah, I really don't know. I am feeling a bit like lost and in translation also. Because also it's also because I'm struggling, also because I'm not—so I understand quite everything, but well, because the sound is not so good and so on. But anyway, it's not only about that. It's also because I still feel you are the benchmark and yeah, that's the way the simplest way I can put it. Because I struggled with being really empty, open and empty and alone. And I come back to the image I had the last time we talked about becoming where the light is, to look where the light is.

Even we've lost things in—I was mentioning the idea of looking for what we've lost in the place where there's light because you are, because you are there and because you are the light we rely upon somehow. So it is also a childish feeling to need to look for it. It's on one hand that childish feeling, but it's also another feeling. It's also because we are lost in a new way. We're not the same thing lost as you were as children. So this not holding to anything anymore, yes, it's just—it seems so crazy although we do it all the time. But yeah, our mind doesn't want it, it doesn't trust, and so we are hanging to you because you just radiate this freedom. I said I cannot speak, I say 'we' but I should...

It’s on one hand that the child is feeling, but it's also another feeling. It's also because we are lost in a new way; we're not the same thing lost as you were as children. So, this not holding to anything anymore, yes, it's just—it seems so crazy, although we do it all the time. But yeah, our mind doesn't want it, it doesn't trust, and so we are hanging to you because you just radiate this freedom. I cannot speak—I say 'we' but I should say 'I' because I just feel attracted. That's how the image from light, the going to the light, became. I just feel attracted because of a vibration of a freedom, and I know this freedom is also somewhere in me, yes, but I must say I am avoiding it, you know. And so I like my only fly disco—I don't know if you can hear this, my dear, but you're frozen.

The author as well as the view. We'll wait for him to come. Now let's go to Jada.

Hello, hello. Can you hear me, Father? It's my new experiment.

I hear you very well. Okay, okay. How are you?

I'm good, Father. And yeah, there was something which I wanted to bring, and during satsang it actually became so clear what it actually is. And also, I want to share a little bit about this. Sorry, after you give me the experiment of—what was that? The attention thing. Anyway, remind me, what was the assignment?

Okay, it was: What do you know that is not a result of your attention being on it? Independent of your attention, what is that?

Yes, yes. Sorry, my attention went somewhere else and yeah, I could follow it so beautifully because the answer was already in the thing itself, the sentence you have given me. And of course, attention is only in the perception. Attention only can move in perception. And when you see this, already you are out of this what we call perception, this content of this attention, because that is what we call perception—what attention seems to bring back to us.

But what is independent of this perception or attention? That is the discovery for which we come to satsang, even if we don't realize that that is why we come. Because somewhere in our heart, we already know that everything in perception is always changing, so there's no point holding that too strongly; that will only cause trouble. So that much recognition most of us have had, that there's no point clinging on to that which is changing. So in our heart, whether we are able to articulate it that way or not, we must be searching for some stability, you see? And stability can only come from the unchanging; it can never come from the change. So whether we realize it or not, we are looking for peace, we are looking for stability. And it cannot come—like I used to joke about this and say wanting peace or stability in the world is like tying yourself to a drunk donkey and expecting a stable life, you see? It just doesn't happen because every layer of your existence in this world is constantly changing. Everything—what you see, what you feel, the state of your body, the thoughts in your head—everything is constantly changing. So to expect that to be stable is like trying to ride a drunken buffalo.

So how to find this stability? How to find the stability must come from that which is the unchanging. And if you recognize that you remain unaffected by whatever the change may be, then that is the end of suffering. Okay, so the goal sometimes also gets in the way because embedded in the expectation of the end of suffering is the idea of a 'me'. So there comes a point where the Master says forget even about the end of suffering, just truth for truth's sake. Whose end of suffering are we looking for? And although we may say, 'Oh, I actually want it for everyone,' you see, we won't like it if everyone got it but me. And we want it for 'my' world because it's mine. So the 'me' is the last—sometimes when we are very spiritual, we will say, if I say 'Whose end of suffering are you looking for?' you may say, 'I want everyone to come to the end of suffering and I am easy.' But what if everyone comes to the end of their suffering except you, except the 'me'? Then no, no, no, I don't want that.

So this 'me' that wants to—the 'me' that is the notion of suffering itself, you see, like a dog chasing its own tail. The suffering itself says, 'I want to come to the end of suffering.' I try to take you away from that loop which is never-ending, because one problem solved, the next problem comes; one problem solved, the next comes. It is never-ending. That is the state of the human condition. The only stability, the only short circuit out of this loop, is to come to self-recognition and not to confuse yourself with that which follows.

So Father, what I realize is that after looking to this—what is the answer? You said it's in the question, but let me hear it from you. What is it? What is it that you know that is not in your attention?

I have to check again for giving an answer. Take your time. This is the most important question. Take as much time as you like.

Okay, I just see attention cannot go anywhere. It's okay, it's okay. Is there something which is clear to you, but it does not rely on your perception of it, neither on the concept of it? Beyond both of these, that is worth looking for. Why? I don't—okay, but I don't feel like this. I mean, there's a movement, Father, and this has bothered me for more than a week. There is a movement. Is the witness of the movement also a perception?

I need to hear the question again. Is the witness of the movement or the witnessing of the movement also a perception? No.

Okay. How do you know that? When you ask, this becomes clear, even though it is always. But when you ask, I realize it; otherwise, this unconscious movement just goes on.

Let's wait there. So this is good. So when the question of inquiry is asked, in whichever way it is asked, then something becomes apparent to us, you see? But even when it is apparent to us, it doesn't become a perception, does it? It cannot.

It cannot. Very good, very good.

So this is self-recognition independent of perception. What do you recognize yourself to be then? What are the attributes of the witness?

When you ask this to me, the only word I can give is just 'me'. I cannot—words, I cannot find any word other than this: just 'me'.

Now this 'you', this 'you'—what can affect it, hurt it, break it?

Funny questions. Not applicable.

Very good. So is there another you?

Yes.

Where is that one?

So it's just an idea or a set of ideas. Believe them, make up this false identity. And as long as we keep trying to resolve things for that bundle of ideas, you see, life and the seeking for the truth may go on and on.

So if you speak yourself to be—if you don't take yourself to be what the mind is presenting you are, and you take yourself to be that insight which you have when I ask you the question, then...

But I don't know if I take myself as this or not. What I know is that there is that movement and it's just continuously going on and...

Okay, please let me share this. This is a simple way to check. There's a simple way to check. Like you said, 'I don't know, you know, whether I do that.' Who is the 'I'? Who's the 'I' that you're referring to in that statement? Is it again the mind-presented 'I'? Yeah, don't do that. It's as simple as saying—I'm saying to you there's a puddle or a ditch in front of you, don't step into that, otherwise you will have mud on your shoes, you see? Now, don't step into that. But if you step into that, you will have mud on your shoe. If you continue to consume thoughts which are presenting a version of you which is limited, then if you end up believing that you are limited, that's bound to happen. You as consciousness have the power to let it go or the power to make it seem true, you see? So you as consciousness have to let go of them. That's why satsang is consciousness speaking with consciousness. I cannot speak to you or Jada because Jada is a non-existent entity, and a non-existent entity can't let go or hold on. So this is just consciousness having this monologue.

You said, Father, 'You have to let go.' What did you say? I missed this. You gave some instruction and I couldn't hear.

But let go of the mind's representations about yourself. And if you need to rely on any representation, then rely on the representation in the insight that you have when I ask you a question about satsang.

But with this knowing, how—sorry, but this question comes with this knowing. Okay, it just so happens. Comes from where?

Excuse me, where does it come from? You can recognize the source of the question. Yeah, okay, where does it come from? And from concern, supposedly. One is the mind's representations of your reality, and your second is your heart or your intuitive representation of your reality. Where is the question coming from?

Okay, I need clarification. So maybe it comes from here too, for you to clear something.

The way to check that is that in your question, what is your representation as? Is it as a body-mind? Yeah, then it's from the mind. The intuition doesn't make limited representations about us.

But I'm not sure of it.

Who is it? This is not a—it's a very natural thing where the Master will keep saying, 'Go to the root,' because that is where all the problems stem from. And the mind will keep saying, 'No, no, but if you help with this branch, if you just help me with this branch because I have this problem, you see, and you just help me with that, the rest I'll take care of,' you see? But these branches never end. And now I've been sharing satsang for eight years and I've seen how those branches don't end. We can keep going on and on till we come to a point of really coming to the crux of all of this, you see? And at the crux of all of this, you see, there has to be trust to see that even if I seem to solve it for myself or with the Master's help, as long as I'm representing myself as a limited bundle of flesh and blood and a collection of thoughts, suffering is not going to go away. There is only one inevitability for this body, which is that the mind means nothing because it's just thoughts which come and go. So it's born and dying, born and dying over and over, a million words. So what is it that the Master is pointing you to? That which is the unborn and the undying. Now your mind will say, 'But I don't want that.' But if you didn't want that, then you would not be here week after week. So somewhere in your heart you want that. That's why I keep saying, why would you keep coming to a Chinese restaurant if you only wanted Italian food?

Because what's this one what wants? Actually, I don't want, and I know that it doesn't go anywhere. I'm just so clear, and yet it's—this is the thing.

So if you are clear, then forget the 'yet'. No. No, because Father, please—a triangular relationship is suffering, you see? So if you have a relationship with Master and mind, it's going to be suffering. You want to hold both hands. As long as you're clear, 'I want suffering,' it's fine then. But it represents me as there is something in it, and I believe it and I continue to move.

No, I don't believe, I don't believe, I don't believe this highest representation. Tell me the mind's highest representation of you and I'll tell you that it's garbage. It cannot fathom your greatness. It cannot fathom your—cannot magnify the extent of your being. It's still being that, having suffered from millions of false representations and falling into the same trap again and again. When it presents something to us, it seems like, 'Oh, maybe there is something to this and it is not fooling us this time.' It still tries to sound—no, oh my goodness. Allow yourself this discomfort of not feeling represented, not being able to share your true story or something like that, you see? It's fine because it's not true anyway. And I'm taking away this mental slavery from you which is presenting all of these representations, you see, which seem to have so much gravity. But soon you will see that I...

When it presents something to us, it seems like, 'Oh, maybe there is something to this and it is not fooling us this time.' It still tries to sound—no, oh my goodness. Allow yourself this discomfort of not feeling represented, not being able to share your true story or something like that. You see, it's fine because it's not true anyway. And I'm taking away this mental slavery from you, which is presenting all of these representations, you see, which seem to have so much gravity. But soon you will see that it's nothing.

And I want to offer all the remaining parts which somehow it has power to, because there are still some parts which can creep in. And yeah, I offer them to you. And it's all, of course, about person, and it doesn't mean anything now. Just don't let me fall into this again. And just don't let me—I don't believe it anymore, but just don't let me go and spend more time with it anymore. And give me strength to really be here, what you have shown to me.

I'm with you in this. I'm with you. It's complete. Okay, thank you. Let's go to Marine. Marine Martin, actually. Interesting, my phone might die any moment, so it's a good feeling, actually. Yeah, yeah.

I wish not to waste any words, any moment in general, you know, to really fully, fully live.

Yeah, very. Hey, yes. As long as 'fully' is just open and natural and effortless, and not like, 'Fully! What can I take out of this moment? And what can I take out of this moment?' Then it becomes very greedy. But I hear your words and the sense where they're coming from. It's just moving, not distracting yourself with mind nonsense, not taking yourself to be false representation. Just open, just your perception. That's good enough. It's the best, the best.

Yeah, yeah. I just feel it's just—I mean, I don't know why I'm so blessed to have you to speak to directly in this way, so accessible. It's such a, yeah, indescribable gift. And to Babaji in my heart and in my life, it's really the biggest, biggest blessing. Yeah, there was this—a week ago, I saw satsang with Babaji and this sentence came up that really, really is with me since then. And it was actually someone read it on these little notes that Babaji made, and the sentence is: 'I am the relationship with my Master.' Yeah, and it's just again kind of affirming this same deepest heart wish to just be fully in that and no nonsense. And actually, it's more and more clear that it's the easiest thing. It's effortless in itself.

Yes, that's very good. It's very good to see that the Master is only saying, 'Let go of effort, let go of effort.' And to the mind, that can seem like, 'Oh, I have to stay here with the Master's presence,' or 'I have to stay as the Self,' and that seems like it's too much effort. 'I try, sometimes it works, other times it doesn't work.' You see all these conceptual ideas. But in your most natural, in your most effortless, that is it. And it's here, isn't it? You can't stop it, actually.

Yeah, I'd like to share actually something that I've noticed also. In watching satsang, more and more I have this experience of the words are there, but somehow I'm just in your darshan and there's just—it's just the words are so like the waves. Yeah, yeah. It's also, in a way, it feels a bit new and funny or something, you know. Well, I was saying in a way it feels new or funny, but actually it doesn't so much. It's just maybe there's some old habit of, you know, just that language and words need to be kind of listened to actively or something. But actually, now I'm saying this, I know this—no, actually it can just be and it will be absorbed, what needs to be absorbed. And I don't need to kind of...

I'm very happy to hear your report today. Very nice.

Yeah, me too. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Let's go to Keisha.

Hello. I'd like to share a dream I had last night. I appeared at your feet and there was just so much love, and you held me like a child. And I woke up with just so much love in my heart for you and a prayer that that connection—that I just always remain in you, in your lap as a child. And it was just so beautiful and it's hard to convey it in the way that I want to, in the way that you can feel it. I want to be with you and I want to be with Guruji. And for so long I wanted it to be physical, you know, like near you, but I'm not sure that will happen. But that doesn't have to lessen the connection. It can still be really strong and really true and really close. And yeah, I don't know what else to say. Thank you. And I wrote a sentence that was just—I jotted it down and it felt like a summary of this satsang, which could be portrayed as another conclusion, but okay, I wonder... I would like to read it: 'Every thought, every want, conclusion, or doubt just pauses what is naturally awakened already.'

That's very good. And that's very good, I like it. 'Every thought, every want, conclusion, or doubt pauses what is naturally awakened.' It doesn't seem to do that, that's all. It's a seeming pause. I love you, thank you.

Let's see. Sorry, my credit was finished, I didn't have—yeah, so I tried. Yeah, I know. My point was just the feeling of why do I, or a thing, or come reach my head to use this way? And I feel it's because I was seeing it because you are—you're just—I just feel your freedom and it's good for me. It's just it's just good for me. So it's like opening the window whenever it's sticky. So I guess I was listening in the last thing just two minutes ago, and I think the 'Guru Kripa Kevalam' is really what I'm talking about. And I think I was talking about being childish or looking for recognition or looking for talking of the benchmark. And how could we be—how do you say—yeah, you could say, 'Oh, come my son, you're welcome, you're welcome home,' you know? And so there is a dream of this kind of thing in the heart, you know? And this is true on one hand, and there is also a trap in there that I must see. But I want to see the Guru because I think I've been struggling to be autonomous and to understand. And because of this understanding, I would also feel pissed off, or I don't know the right word, I still feel persuaded and then all these ways, you know.

Yeah, I think that's the most important. Very nice effect, beautiful. I can relate with it because, you know, I can relate till I came to Guruji. On the hot seat, I spent many years like this, you know. I spent many years just feeling like, 'When is it going to happen here? When will the Master acknowledge my freedom?' All of these things. And then you're right to see this, that all is Master's grace. Grace, Guru Kripa, is beautiful. But what the Master is saying is that it's fully, fully yours. You're already home. You're already home. And in a way, it's a 'welcome home,' but this is my constant reminder to you: don't presume that you have left home, because it is that presumption itself which is separation or individuality. So, welcome home. And I'm happy that you're right here at home. All that gets in the way, let it be my problem. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you so much.

For some time you remember me, that's so cool. I'm actually crying out of gratitude right now and I just wanted to say that I usually don't raise my hand and I send you notes every so often. I'm just—actually what I wanted to say was you always answer everything that's going on. Obviously, it's always for a person, so I end up never coming up with raising my hands. But today I just wanted to come up and raise my hand and say hi for no reason and saying thank you. Thank you for the effortlessness. Thank you for the effortlessness. Thank you so much.

So welcome, so welcome. Thank you.

Yeah, you know, I'm traveling and my family is all in mind and scared, and I'm also scared, but I'm okay. And you know, I'm seeing that this whole scaredness has grown to family together. The scaredness—the mind is scared, nah? So the fear has actually got my uncle to talk to me after I don't even know how many years, 25 years. Yeah, so I really see the grace of effortlessness. Obviously, the story of the person continues and you watch, but this recognition of the fact that everything moves but I'm not moving. I'm, you know, sometimes I'm so—I'm here, but Rishikesh comes and goes, Mooji Baba comes and goes, you come and go. My nonsense also comes and goes in the same space, but I don't even move. I travel but I don't move. I'm stuck in the now. Morning happens sometimes, night happens sometimes, sleep happens, but I'm trapped in the now.

And it's not a kind of trap, is it? Now, are you trapped in the now? What is the relationship? Let's get—should we be complaining? 'I'm always trapped in the Self, what to do? How can I get hurt?' I even have this—it's worth contemplating. Is 'I'm struggling, stuck in some moment in time'? No, that's just me. It's fine. I'm just—pardon me. I'm happy to hear you like this as well.

Yeah, you know, you told me, 'Come to Bangalore.' This kaduro did not come to Bangalore; instead, you came to Bombay every day. This is all, you know—obviously, I don't know how else to express actually outside of saying it as a person.

It's perfectly fine. It's perfect. My husband, oh my god. Listen, go to Madelina then Georgie.

Namaste. I just wanted to thank you and to leave a prayer with you that I remain open and empty until there is very clear—there is no separation between me and you, and until there is no doubt in who I truly am.

Completely within this prayer. Thank you for everything. Thank you, my dear. Thanks. Very good. Let's go to Georgina.

Hello, Father. There's a lot of resistance to ask this question because it sounds like a very conceptual question, but I've had it for such a long time and I think you're the only one that can answer it. I've been wondering about the soul and if it exists. And I once heard you use the word Jivatma, I think, as the individual soul. And so that's what I am talking about when I mean the soul, like the individual soul. Because I hear in so many spiritualities they talk about, for instance, karma and something that stays throughout even lifetimes. And sometimes also I think about the expression of the Masters, that even after realization there seems to be something in the expression that is beyond identity and that is unique to something. And I was wondering whether this—how it relates to, how to reconcile all those things with satsang? Is it what we call the expression? Is it what we call mind? Is it neither of them? Is it part of reality or is it in part reality and in part mind? What is it?

Good. I had two questions. I remember I had a lot of these questions. I don't know if I came up with the satisfactory answers or the questions just went away, but I will try to answer them.

So I was waiting for it to go away throughout the whole time, it kept coming back and I didn't want to raise my hand because I just—but yeah, it's been here for a long time.

So what happened is that you're right, I use the term Jivatma at times, and usually I use it under the umbrella of saying that this individualization never happened. But let's not start with that conclusion. Let's really look at it in some depth because you've carried it for some time. So let's see if we'll really dissect it. Actually, in India—and it may sound like in the Western countries that there's one movement called Advaita and then there's Dvaita, then there are other movements which are not Vedanta—but it may seem like it is one Advaita Vedanta. But actually, there are tens of Advaita Vedantas, and all the combinations are based on the relationship of the Jivatma, Paramatma, and the little Atma or the individualization, right? And then the third variable is the world of the apparent world called Jagat. So based on these three variables, as many combinations as you can name, there are lines of Advaita.

It's called Advaita, and then there's Dvaita. Then there are other movements which are not Vedanta, but it may seem like it is one Advaita Vedanta, but actually there are tens of Advaita Vedantas. And all the combinations are based on the relationship of the Paramatma and the little Atma, or the individualization, right? And then the third variable is the world of the apparent world called jagat. So based on these three variables, as many combinations as you can name, there are lines of Advaita who believe. So some will say that actually there is one being, one God, one consciousness, but within that an apparent difference came, but that difference is not really strong. So it's like fire and the spark. You see, what is the difference between fire and spark, or big fire and flame, or ocean and wave? So there is a distinction, but it's not so big, you see.

Some will say there is like a Shuddha, they will say no distinction has ever happened. Some will say, no, no, a slight distinction has happened, that's why we have to go back home, you see. That's why we have to return to the reality. If no distinction had happened, where is the question of returning? So I'm not going to presume that in this conversation we will solve this conundrum which has been there for hundreds of years, you see. We cannot solve it because everybody and their very learned sages, everyone in those different, different movements of our Veda Vedanta, everyone has very convincing things to say.

Then, because we cannot resolve it from that level, what is the level at which we can try and look at it? We have to look at it from our direct experience, because satsang, at least direct satsang like this, has to rely on what is truly seen or clear here. So that is my attempt. My attempt is to guide you to this direct insight yourself. Now, I can tell you that when I notice or look at the being and try to find the boundary or separation between my discovery of God and the being here, I can find not an ounce or iota of distinction. I cannot find that distinction, and that's why from this mouth I have to say that this separation never occurred.

Now, you may say that when I see, I see a subtle boundary. It's not really real, but there is one, you see. And I cannot argue and will not argue with that because that is your experience, your direct experience. So if you say, 'No, I feel like some individualization has happened and this is what my experience shows me,' I say okay. You see, the one thing that is clear in all of this is that the person never happened. So we are not even talking about the ego. And any of them, in terms of the being itself, is there any distinction? I have to say with all honesty in my experience, no. But if someone else says, 'Oh, in my being it seems like there are some waves like this and there's some distinction like that,' then you may conform to some other form of Advaita Vedanta, or you may even create a new one. So that is not something that troubles me at all, as long as we are clear that this make-believe person has never taken birth and it's all just consciousness playing with itself with whichever way it is playing. Completely fine.

So I would just lead you in this direction and say: go to your being and see if there's a boundary, any separation, any sort of distinction. And this being is the only God that I have found, and it is beyond any boundary, any notion of time or space. So that is why I have to speak like that. That was about the Jivatma. What is your feeling? Do you have a feeling now, having just checked for yourself?

Well, when we check, there's no, there's not the question of Jivatma or anything like that. So this is why I feel that the question is more conceptual, but it comes up when there is relationship with other things, such as healing. For especially healing, it comes up because I hear the words so much and also because I think of the story—the story even beyond this lifetime. And that's what I think of, I guess, when I think of the soul.

So my advice would be to take anything that is conceptual not so serious. And that may include what we feel like is very important to us, and we feel like something may go away. Like if some healing is happening, what if I lose the idea of individualization of consciousness? Will the healing stop happening? No, it doesn't have to function like that. Nothing is as reliant on our idea of things as we may believe it is.

Can you repeat the last thing you said?

Nothing is as reliant on our notion or idea of it as we may believe it to be. So there could be like this idea—I don't know if this is what you were implying—that if I lose the notion of this individualized consciousness, then will the healing that happens to this one or through this one, will that stop? No, it doesn't work like that, you see. Because concepts are the interpretations of what is manifesting, you see. There is just like there's a commentator who's chronicling the event and saying, 'Okay, this is what happened, this is what happened.' And if you have a hundred different commentators, each of them will have a different chronicle. So that chronicle never interferes with what is playing out.

So you don't have to worry about that grace, which is God's grace, whether it has to work with a concept of full separation—'Oh, I am just a tiny little old me, please God save me'—it may work. And if it has to work, 'We are one, there are no two, it's all one being, one heart,' it may work, you see. Either may work. Who can say how things will play out? We can never see. So concepts are mostly useful if you're communicating, if you want to get your point across in some way or point in a particular way. In that way you can employ them. But if you feel like you need to use them for something else, go straight to the heart of it.

Like if healing works, then what gives it the power to work? If there's a particular thing, if there's a particular Pranic healing or Reiki or whatever the technique may be, you see, the Reiki could not have invented Reiki. So something was inherently there which gave the powers for this to work or not work, you see. So when you are in the refuge of the source itself, then you don't have to worry so much about whether that aspect will play out or not. You're going straight to the source of it where all the intelligence, where all the functioning, everything that has to play out will work.

Now, I'll get in trouble for this, but since you asked, I'm not a great believer in the notion of karma because it sounds to me like a glorified way to explain that which is beyond explanation. And because it is so oppressive to the human mind to say, 'I do not understand how this life functions and how these things which apparently are good or these things which apparently are bad would happen to those in this way,' then let's try to come up with something which explains all of this and put both life in a nice little box of explanation and say, 'This is how this works,' you see.

So what was the source of the first karma? What is the origin? So then we say, 'Okay, God activated it as the first cause or the first mover,' you see. Then what are we saying? He activated it and he stopped? If he's the first mover, then he just did the first move, then he's just waiting to, 'Okay, let's see how...' you know? So all of these are a bit... even the position that I am taking about it is not like a true position or something. It is just to show you that all positions are fragile and that they're just conceptual. And we don't need to understand how life functions conceptually. We can just meet life in the heart where nothing is confusing.

Yes, I suppose that there was... yeah, just because I understand what you're sharing now, but just because in satsang we still talk about mind and we talk about ego even though they don't exist and are part of the manifest. This is why I was wondering, I suppose, why do we talk about that but not about... even if it's not real, even if no concept will really encapsulate truth. This is why I was, you know, wondering, contemplating all of these.

Like one other notion which I used to carry very strongly earlier, but then it got dropped after meeting Guruji, is the notion of predetermination. Yeah, but they used it only with the feeling that it will bring our mind to rest, like, 'Don't worry, everything is already how it is destined to be.' But to put consciousness in the box of time saying, 'Okay, now at the beginning of time it wrote the script, you see, and now everything has to play out according to that script and even God cannot change it,' you know, this kind of thing is putting God too much in this linear notion of time. Time is not this way. And to put God in a conceptually understandable idea of time and say, 'Okay, before time it was all written,' you see, all our attempts to try and make sense of that which is so beyond our limited understanding but not beyond our intuition.

Like, which time are we talking about anyway? Like even if there was a transmigration, like in the flight load work and there, you see, which time are we talking about? Where does all that happen? Yeah. And can all... if I was to represent consciousness, would I represent consciousness in such a linear timeline? I would represent consciousness with every possibility playing out in every moment, right? So millions of possibilities all played out and just navigated in a linear way using our attention, or the attention that consciousness is playing with. So which script? If every script, if all there is has to play out in a one linear script, then it's not all there is. Like every single potential must be activated for it to be all there is. There's no truth in what I'm saying, I'm just saying that the opposite of what we usually believe is just as believable.

Yes, and therefore it is. Thank you, Father. Thank you.

Hello, my dear.

Hello. I was not sure if I should come up. Can you hear me?

Probably very well.

Okay. Um, yeah, and so I just came up to come up. I don't... I could speak a lot, but I could also not speak and, you know, it's not nothing really important in a way. But I actually, I just had to come up and check, somehow check if something wants to hide or so. And I just had to put myself out there, you know, just to speak up and to check and not make it easy, you know, when you're on yourself and yourself at times. Maybe, you know, even if you... and this, actually, I wanted to check on that. And I just, you know, I find always a lot of things where I do so many people wrong, you know, also you. But that I'm doing people wrong, you know, and also you. And I just said, and I felt how, you know, just before you called me, I just felt where just repeatedly doing this and it's so subtle sometimes, you know.

And there's so this strong habit to hold on to this personality. And I found more and more how the things are falling away, all the big meanings, and how you don't want to feel that loss, you know, flowing in nothingness. It's just the fun, all this. And then little, every little thing you grab on, it's just, 'Look at me a little bit.' And that's pretty tough actually, that time was for me. But I also felt again and again, you know, so I'm too old for this play. Yeah. So, you know, I don't want to waste all my time anymore. And it doesn't... and recently I just feel how I felt how I was living a comfort zone, a very, very big one with very, a lot of, you know, very stable holding on to. And I had such a yearning to leave that. And even if the yearning is not there, there's something pushing, you know, which not... I'm not the one who... it really just wants to push me through.

And I feel, you know, even when it's really tough going on, I feel so faith in love and being holed and or held, and it's so amazing. And all, you know, even... but also being kicked is so amazing, beautiful, you know, it's all this. And it's... ah, and then yeah, the habits just want to keep, you know, being kept.

It's for everyone like this, no? There's nothing special.

If the yearning is not there, there's something pushing, you know, which—not I'm not the one who—it really just wants to push me through. And I feel, you know, even when it's really tough going on, I feel so faith in love and being held. And it's so amazing and all, you know, even being kicked is so amazing, beautiful, you know? It's all this. And then, yeah, the habits just want to keep being kept. It's for everyone like this, no? There's nothing special about me or anyone; it's just the way it is. And I used to blame myself so much about this and being guilty, feeling guilty and shamed for it. But yeah, it's just—it's ridiculous. It's just—but it has to be like this. You just have to go through all this. There's no other way. There's just no other way. And yeah, I was taking a long time to avoid everything even, you know, and again and again. So you have a breakthrough, you have a recognition—many, many, many recognitions and many openings, so how do you want to say it—and then again you find yourself in total blindness, ignorance, and sometimes even arrogance. And I understand it. So you know, this is amazing. And so I just said, you know, yeah, I just have those up, such a big thing, you know, such a big, strong, really strong personality, really. And I was not, you know—you can have a very strong personality even if you feel very, very weak and victim-like, and these are the strongest actually. And this is how I feel about it. And then you're switching from one to the other and all this, and all this just wants to be seen. And I just felt to put it out there, you know, that there's no chance to hide from this stuff anymore. So even if I don't want to, or this one doesn't want to, you know, it's done as much. I don't know, you know.

It is very important, very beautiful, very good. So beautiful that life sometimes presents these things. And the beautiful recognition of Grace that is happening in these moments is very precious. And thank you also to Go-wen; he really—it was like I was speaking the words. It was really beautiful to have someone who speaks so good, you know, and expresses that.

But you're speaking very well too. I haven't seen you for a while. Thank you very much and thank you to everyone. Thank you.

Okay, let's go to Paula.

Thank you, Father. Hello. I don't know. I don't know what to say.

That's good, no? Because you're not converting the circles into squares.

Yes, yes. I came with a square, very clear.

But I don't even know if, as a result of today's satsang, we just recognize our squares and we let them go and we realize that no circle has ever been fully captured in a square. I feel like my job is done for today if we drop these conceptual notions and remain in the unborn. Because to remain in the unborn is just this: to not go with our conceptual nonsense, not go with our representation of what is. And if you truly don't want anything, which most of us claim, then it's not so difficult. It is only if we say, 'Okay, this is my game plan, this is my roadmap, this is where I have to be,' then the mind uses that and says, 'No, no, you have to have these squares, otherwise how are you making progress towards them?' That's why I keep emphasizing truth for truth's sake, because this is the point where the mind will play and say, 'Oh, but you wanted to be enlightened by 2022. How much progress are you making? This, for example, come on, let's hurry up with it, you have other things to do.' Not that openly, because I'm exaggerating just to make the point, but it has these ideas about the life of this body-mind and where the narrative should go, what should happen. And if you have none of that, then the gravitation towards believing those squares is not so much.

Yeah, the thing is that it is a satsang square. So it's that satsang love, the satsang third eye, but as tricky—as tricky if not more, you see.

The spiritual squares can be very tricky because they have the label 'special truths.' All the rest of the beliefs are just true, apparently—they're not true at all—but the satsang words and satsang concepts are especially so. You know what to do with them? Just throw them over. Okay, I'm open to hearing if you wanted to share.

It's like stuck like here. It's a sense that I always come to you full, like there's the defensiveness with you.

Or we couldn't do that. Just try to be full of me and show me how. Being is just so strong, you see, that every moment it cleans up everything. It could be full of me—say that—but one moment then we have to remember, 'No, what am I so upset about?' It just can't work. So it is the identity which is fighting a losing battle. We must never feel like it's so difficult for us because what can be simpler? You're free right now. Right now, before you think about it. Like what did Keshav say? The seeming pause will only come if you have a conclusion. You are free. Tell me whether 'me' is, or how you are bound right now. Right now. Now. Right?

The mind doesn't have this advantage. The being has this advantage, fully, fully present every moment. 'Me' can never be like this. The 'me' is as if it were happening right now, but I don't know what it is.

What? Tell me what is happening right now. What sensation has to appear to convince you that it is the 'me'? What sensation? What thought? Is there an idea that something should not be like this or something should be different?

I don't know. There are many sensations in the body, but I am observing them, so I—the 'me'—is not there. And there are also no thoughts, but I don't know what it is, but it feels like I—I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

What sensation can be there that makes the being not being enough and makes it—just create as many sensations as you can and try to make the being into 'me.' Let's see. Let's see that magic. Are you trying hard enough to create sensation?

It's not sensation because it's clear what a sensation is. Yeah. And there's also no thoughts because a thought cannot do it because it goes very fast. So it's not a thought. But what comes after a 'but' is not a thought?

Yes, it is. Let me present to you a thought which is not a thought: here you go. 'Maybe it doesn't work like that.' It's still a thought. Yes, you see, every thought is a thought. So it tries to invite you into the representations of reality which it believes that you will buy into, that it's enticed you with this in the past in some way or the other. And it feels like it can say, 'Yes, yes, there's no thought, there's sensations also perceived, they're all perceived, but yeah, I'm your friend, I'm helping you. I've told you it's not easy now.' But it's always all nonsense afterwards. Of course, nonsense before, but also—but because if it's your intuition, then we have to, you know, together. One way to check, as I was telling Jada earlier, one way to check is: what are you being represented as in the representation of the world or what is happening? What are you in that? Are you a tiny object in the middle of all of this stuff? What is it? What is it that—and if that representation is so strongly just this limited representation, then obviously it is the mind. But right now it's not; there's no representation.

Yes.

So have you vanished along with the lack of representation? That's it. That's freedom. Everything that is needed is here without any notion, any representation, you see? And even representations of motion don't actually do anything. It is only when consciousness is giving them belief, then consciousness plays as if it is limited, and therefore limitation leads to the idea of suffering. But nothing in reality is ever happening. So all of satsang is to solve the non-existent problem.

Can I bring another problem that it's been lately coming? And it's about that—that's it—who is the body is going to die, and there's fear of that.

Who will suffer when the body dies? The body is no longer worth contemplating. The owner of this body—is it consciousness or is it the ego? If it is consciousness, then for consciousness, even if there is something like the changing of this body, then it will be like changing clothes. Yes? And all of the clothes are being worn by the same consciousness. But is there another owner which specifically owns just this body? And we were talking about this when we are talking about the individualization of consciousness.

I—no, I don't know about that. I don't—

That's what we can look into, to see in your direct experience whether that which is the witness of all this, that perceives all of this—does that have a special connection or location only within one particular body? Then is it this body, dream body, daydream body? There's so many experiences that you can have. Where can we locate consciousness?

No, no location. But there's—there's fear of pain in the body or the body dying with pain.

Most of us have that. Pain—like many people have told me, 'I don't mind dying as long as it's a painless death.' But I have some good news for you: there's only a certain level of pain that you can experience in the body, and after that you will lose consciousness anyway. And that is not something more than you can handle. If it's more than you can handle, you know, you lose consciousness. So all the pain you feel means you'll be able to handle it. It's a built-in fail-safe system. Consciousness is not stupid. Mind tries to get at every unknown and tries to make you fearful of that. So now you know that, 'Okay, I can't experience so much pain. If I experience that much pain, I'll pass out anyway, so I won't be there to experience.' How can consciousness give to itself something that it can't handle? So unless you insert 'you' as something other than consciousness, then there is no trouble in anything that appears. And pain and pressure are very much a part of this waking experience, as is in every cooking you'll have salt, you have sweet, you see? What makes up the texture of life. But don't ever worry that consciousness will mess up and put too much salt or too much sweet.

Thank you, Father. This one last question on the chat: 'Anantaji, if sadness comes to you, you wouldn't mind?' That is the question.

So if by sadness you mean just the natural appearance of grief that may come—you know, something happens, some grief may come—it's fine. It's fine. Some tears may come. In fact, I cry a lot in movies and things, so I won't say like grief comes, but you know, you're just watching, watching, and something happens and then tears start. It's fine. It's quite enjoyable. People watch for that. All of this Leela has to enjoy every color of it, every shape of it, every cycle. It's fine. I can't predict what will happen tomorrow, but at the moment it just seems like it will be tasted fully and it should be fine. I don't usually say these things because I don't want to make any benchmarks like, 'Ananta said like that,' but in my case—so forget, forget my answer. Nobody wants to sing for us? Ah, yes, yes. You never ask him one question. Do you want to play the thing? You know what I was feeling before I came and then it vanished was instead of taking questions in this video, I should just look at everyone and just select and say, 'Would you like to say something?' Maybe we try that once next time, because some of you feel quite shy, no? Once we were just talking and some—like I was forcing them to say something and they said, 'I'm so glad because I feel so shy to come on.' Next time you just look at this in the gallery view. Thank you all so much for being in satsang today.

Thank you all so much for being in satsang today.