A Now Which Is Not in Time… a Here Which Is Not in Space - 11th December 2020

"Who am I?" is good because whatever shows up, you can say, "So who am I that is witnessing that? So who is that which is witnessing that?" And why it is good is because in many of the other inquiries, what can happen is that we start referring to ourselves as "that," you see? And then the master has to say, "What is the distance between that and you?" to bring the reality of the "I" and "that" to become apparent, you see? So in that way, "Who am I?" is quite helpful because when we say "What is there?" or a question which is not so direct, then the master, you will find, often says, "Okay, where are you in relation to that?" You see? With "Who am I?" many times that is not needed.

So, but my main recommendation would be that whatever resonates with you the most in these inquiries—it could be "Who am I?", it could be "What am I?", it could be "Where am I?", it could be "Am I aware now?" or "What is aware of my existence?"—any of these questions, take one and dig that really deep, deep, you see? Not shallow digging. Take one which you feel like resonates with you the most and really dig deeply with that, because the mind is bound to offer you alternatives and say, "This is a bit not so good, something else is better." But remember that all of these are good enough. Any of these are good enough because all of them are potent enough to shake you out of making conceptual conclusions or a sort of reliance on perceptual experience. So, yeah, "What am I?" is fine, but that doesn't mean that "Who am I?" is bad. But you have two options.

Thank you, Father. If I answer... how's that? Is any better? Not so heard well? Can you hear me? Sorry, this part was all right, but just barely. Okay, how about you try now to unmute and to say?

Yes, so thank you. So I say Ko Hum, "Who am I?" And if I answer this one, what comes is I'm actually... I'm human being. So I'm like human beingness. So I'm human beingness who is aware. I am awareness, yeah. And then I come in with "What am I?" I am awareness, yeah. I'm awareness that I am Rani in human body, right? You know, acting as consciousness, acting out on the screen of consciousness. So I'm kind of in this... I know it's just words. It's what am I wanting from this? I don't know if it's... so when I say I'm human beingness, I feel that this incorporates it. It's got personal and it's got impersonal in it, Father. So it's like, I guess I just want to be able to drop the words and just at least be able to navigate through the clumsy language that we have. That's where I'm at. And if I say this, "I'm human beingness," how is this for you? How does this resonate?

You can see it is completely fine. What can happen many times with this kind of thing... okay, sometimes I'm getting some feedback, so maybe in the meanwhile... testing, testing, testing. Yeah, it seems all right. So what can happen many times is that what I've noticed is that with inquiry, we get pointed to something which is so beyond the manifest that we come to the recognition of ourselves which is beyond time and space. But many times, because of our need to include, in a way what happens is that a notion like "But ultimately I am human after all," you see, can come back and bring us back into some identification as being personal or something like that.

But if in that statement, as you are human beingness, you are more taking yourself to be beingness which is now expressing itself in a human way, then that is completely fine. It sounds fine to me. Another proposition I have for you is to really explore whether you're really contained as beingness within one body, or is it contained in the body of the universe? So is the entire universe really your body? Or at least that which is manifest and apparent to you as manifest, is that not your body? Or is there a special relationship with a set of sensations that we usually call "my body"?

It's beingness. It is the universal beingness, Father. It's like life. It's this complete connectedness to absolutely everything. And it's actually this awareness of this fragile little dot of humanness which is part of it. So it's like life has tucked a little human under its wing and it's like, "Well, this is what we are. This is everything. We're everything." And so to take that to the point of nothingness, if I take it far, far into the galaxies where it's almost, I guess it could be inconsequential, but I can take this leap. Can I disappear in that though, Father? I just... I can feel the vastness without a doubt. I still have this tiny pinprick, if you can understand what I'm saying, when I take this journey. So do I have to dissolve this pinprick or is it okay, this pinprick?

Yes, it is not only... it is very much part of human existence that this what is called in Sanskrit the tanmatra, that much identification will always remain. So you will realize that you are beyond all of this, and yet even after that recognition, that realization, that tiny... you might call it a pinprick as you called it, a grain of sand of identification with one particular body in the human existence is known to continue. And that is the way consciousness seems to be playing. We cannot really make a rule for consciousness because consciousness is free to play out as it likes.

But you have seen that even in the greatest masters and sages, and even those that we call the avatars that have come down—the forms of the Lord itself who are manifested in a very direct way—have been touched by this conditioning. So don't try to get rid of that. Don't try to get rid of that. It is completely fine and natural.

Do you have that pinprick as well, or is it something that...?

So it's like, let's see how that all seems to occur here. Whenever, for example... let me mute you again. Okay. So when I'm at a beach, for example, and I look at the ocean, it is clear that the ocean is appearing within my being. But there's no notion that I must run into the ocean and this body can dissolve into the ocean or something like that. And when I look down from my window, although I know I'm one with everything that is appearing outside the window, there's no such idea that I could jump this body out of the window and it would make no difference. So that much of identification or caring for the human manifest body still continues here, and that is known to continue for most who have come to the recognition of themselves.

So if that is what we mean by the pinprick, then that is very natural for it to continue like that. And even maybe a little more than that. So I look at my biological children and I'm not like, "But whose kids are you? The guy which is here doesn't have children. What are you guys doing here?" I'm just taking some absurd examples just to make my point clear. So the naturalness of human existence can still be allowed to play out, and that little tinge of identification with the human body is completely natural.

I just wanted to say thank you. It's because this screen of consciousness that Ramesh and that Chaitanya, his brother Chaitanya, used to always talk to me about was the movie, you know, the movie or just this movie. And it's just becoming more and more apparent. It's just my emotions when they're really triggered, that's the catch still. So I'm just really like, please may they burn. That's all. I can just like this, just go. Thank you, Father. All my love.

All my blessings to your son as well. I get a report that my audio is also not so clear today. Of course, I'll go with what Nitya is saying: the sound is really good today. Okay, so I don't need any other confirmation. Leela wants to come. You can come back. Oh, sorry, could you one more unmute yourself, Leela?

Hello. Been a lot of fear to speak to you, but there's something else coming up that I have more fear of today.

Burn, that's all. I can just, like this, just just go. Thank you, Father. All my love, all my blessings to your son as well. I get a report that my audio is also not so clear today. Of course, I'll go with what Nithya is saying; the sound is really good today, okay, so I don't need any other confirmation. Okay, Leela wants to come. You can come back. Oh, sorry, could you one more unmute yourself, Leela?

Hello. Um, been a lot of fear to speak to you, but um, there's something else coming up that I have more fear of today, so I'm coming to you. Um, I don't, I hope it, I hope it'll flow as a question, but um, there's been a lot of fear. I've been with Mooji for about five years, and I think one thing that brought me, aside from wanting to know the source and where everything is from, is being tired of identifying with fear. Being tired of fear in life and being afraid of what's going to happen to my body. And for a while, for years, I guess I sort of was like, forget that, I'm not going to even think about that. And there was always a retreat to go to or something that kind of kept it in the background. But with being home—I live alone in Ireland—and um, it seems there's, there's not many distractions from... I have really no interest. Um, from the, the one thing that's getting me is fear of disease. Maybe not so much death, but say something that's been an old fear is cancer, having something that has a lot of pain. Um, uh, I can't see you, but uh...

Sorry, I'm going to disable the ability to unmute yourselves and I will only unmute you now, okay? So then we can have a nice conversation. Okay.

So there's been fear to go to like routine doctors' appointments for years and kind of at first it was like, I just don't need to because I trust the universe. But then there's been more and more, 'Well, you haven't gone for so many years, you don't know that you don't have something.' So um, I kind of like, my daughter told me, you know, that's not really being free if you're too afraid to face, face it. So um, I'm actually going within an hour to a doctor appointment to check something that I'm, you know, my mind is telling me it's definitely, it could be cancer, there's, you know... and I, I just, you know, I've done the whole looking at who's afraid and to see that there's no one. But, but really I think who's looking is the fear of fear, really. It's more, it feels like it's more the fear of fear than even the fear of a specific disease or it's just... and, and you get, you certainly get um, reinforcement of that if you Google any symptom. There are about, you know, thousands of people afraid of the same thing, so there's so much reinforcement of it. And um, I, I listened to Rupert Spira also and um, he, you know, said that if you identify... the cure for the fear of death is to identify as the open space of awareness and not... but I'm not that good and I'm feeling, you know, I want a cure right now before this appointment so that I, this isn't going to bother me. But, and I know that probably won't happen right now, but I thought, well, okay, one step is maybe speak to Ananta and put it out here. Yes. So yeah, thank you.

Thank you for that report and um, and we'll just have a conversation about this. First, few points that come up. The most important point probably is not spiritual; it is just phenomenal advice: never Google a symptom. It is not... it's the worst.

Everyone says that, no matter what it is, but then there is part of me that's feeling like, well, some people really do have the worst thing, so I should be able to deal with that, you know?

Yeah, you don't have to have like a sort of spiritual bravado about these things and, you know, yeah, this kind of thing. Because some of the stuff, you know, if you just say, 'I have a mild cough' and you just Google it, then you may feel like, yeah, you know, it could be the worst possible manifest experience possible. So yeah, so that's not, not usually the recommended thing, to Google. The doctors say that, you might occur. Yes, yes. But one thing I want to say is that you spotted this very well where you, you said that it's not really the fear of the consequence itself, the worldly consequence, but something has made, made us fearful of fear itself. So like there's a fear that, oh, fear should not come because fear seems to be a contradictory indicator to my freedom or something like that. So if fear is coming, therefore I can't be that free, can I? No. So, so then that builds a spiritual connotation of, of a new fear, which is like a fear of the fear itself. And that attacks our self-image, you see? Because what that means is that if, if fear is still coming, then maybe we are not really free. Although the masters are constantly saying that you are free, you know, in your, in your original nature, in your true nature right now you are free. But we look at fear as evidence of, of not being free enough. And then there is a fear, there is a psychological fear about the fear itself arising. So I want to say that's very well spotted, and the spotting is ninety percent of the, of the trouble, you see? Once you spot it, then it doesn't have that much of a, of a grasp on you. It is the unspotted stuff, you see, which just seems to play out and then we become frantic and say, 'What's happening?' But, but the masters say, 'But you must be like awareness,' how can I still have fear? And you know, it becomes very, very confusing.

Yeah, there is a big voice that's saying, 'No, it's the fear. I just don't want the fear. I'm afraid of the fear.' So I mean, it's just no fear, no more fear.

I feel like fear is as much part of human existence as anything else. So if I was to be on the road in Bangalore and I see a big truck coming towards my car and it's not stopping, it's very possible that—I can't really predict it—but it's very likely that some fear will be experienced here. Yeah, you see? So, so there is no, um, nothing here which wants to constrict anything from showing up. Whatever has to show up in the human condition, it can show up. In the way your daughter was right: what kind of freedom would it be if freedom says, 'Oh, you cannot show up,' you see? Because if you show up, then I'm not free. So that's a bit convoluted, isn't it? Freedom just, um, is a big allowing, you know? There's a big allowing of anything that has to show up, it can show up.

See, feeling like that's me, that I'm identified with it. It's not that I just see it, though. I don't... it's like I feel like this is me that's happening to.

So, so, so when we allow it a bit more to show up, then the identification is not that rapid because we are not resisting it from showing up so much. And the identification with the resistance is much faster than with just... you see, the experiencer and taking the experiencer to be something limited is, is not as fast as we may think as the identification with the resistance to the fear, you see? You get what I'm saying? Because when we put ourselves in a position that this means something about my self-image, and that is what a resistance actually is, then that is much more quick than when we allow and then we say, 'Okay, this is a me that is experiencing fear.' You see, that is a bit, actually a bit slower than the, then trying to stop and 'Don't get identified, don't get identified with this fear.' You see, that identification as the policeman of the fear, of the fear police, is much faster identification than when the fear is just allowed and we notice and we, then we start to say, 'Okay, this has to go. If I'm truly free, then this goes.' So even that is a little more spaced out, you know, in, in time, rather than us taking the approach that, 'No, no, I have to stop this. You can't come, you, you...' So, so it's like this. And I would really recommend that whatever has to show up—fear, anger, you see, hunger—some of these are very natural aspects of the human condition. I call them grade A emotions. You see, what happens is that as you are free, you don't make these grade A into grade B. And what are, what do, what are those grade B? Provisionally we are saying these kind of distinctions. So grade B would be, so suppose, uh, you saw something and you got really angry about it. Then what happens is that we take that anger and say, 'How could these people do that?' You see? So it's not just in the emotion itself; when it is mixed with a notion, you see, of something not right or 'This should not have happened,' then we make the pure anger into a grade B resentment. Yeah, okay. So, so things like regret, guilt, pride, resentment, arrogance—all of these are more grade B because we take something which is just very natural and we make a judgment about ourself or another based on that. And that's what manifests as a more lingering sort of suffering, you see? This is what is suffering. No, guilt, pride, regret, remorse—all of these are... suffering is just a broad term for all of these notional conditions, you see? So when we take this natural arising, you see, and we mix a, a spiritual idea with it—for example, that 'Now that I should be free, this should not come'—you see, that is causing more suffering than just the momentary fear which may arise from time to time, like when you're in a dentist chair or a doctor visit or something like that, which just lasts for those few moments. But our ideas about it coming or not coming and how much of it should come or not come, those are more longer lingering and that is actually a way to suffer.

One thing is that I, I'm so conditioned, I condition myself or my mind to think through the worst possible concept, like what, what could possibly happen from this. And then, but those movies are still playing, you know? I have a doctor's visit, what if it is this? And to stop though, and they, those bring so much more, more fear and then, then and then and then and go on and on. And it's like to sort of, they sort of just... it's, I'm so conditioned to play it out and not just say, 'No, you'll deal with it in the moment and be open.' It's very, it's just those movies are so... I'm old and so this has been going on for a long time before I found Mooji.

I can understand this because usually it is found in the human condition that the anticipation in a fearful way of the event is much more oppressive than actually the event actually playing out. Yeah, so what happens is that if we fixed a doctor's appointment for next week, then that fear about what may he say and 'I hope it's not this,' all of that is much more like a constricted sort of experience than actually meeting with the doctor. And usually it just gets over in five minutes and it just goes however it goes. But that event itself is never, mostly not as oppressive as the, as the waiting or the anticipation for what it may actually be.

Often tells people it's never the way you think it's going to be. Something you've been afraid of your whole life, if you're afraid of being mugged and then it happens and it's like, it's never what you think, your worst fear. So that's something I guess to keep in mind. The playbacks of memories of, 'But remember it was like this, remember how afraid you were then.' It is just not luck. I don't know, I guess they, I can't, can't really say, 'No, you can't come either,' but...

But thank you, so welcome. And it becomes a big allowing. It becomes a big allowing. Allow it all. And we are not so much even so concerned about labeling things, because I'll tell you another secret before we go, which is that we never actually experience the same thing twice. Every experience in every moment is so unique, but our mind cannot deal with that. So the mind has to deal with broad categories. So it takes a set of sensations and calls them fear; it takes another set of sensations, calls them joy. But these are very broad and there is nothing that your being cannot actually handle. Yeah, your being is the light in which all of this appears. So there's nothing that can appear within this being which can just shake being itself out of place or something like that. It's only always our self-image which gets attacked or our ideas about how life should be or should not be that get attacked, you see? So what happens is as you begin to allow, we are also not in a rush to label. Guruji takes a very beautiful example of this. He says for example that like most people, if you...

Actually, handle... yeah, your being is the light in which all of this appears. So there's nothing that can appear within this being which can just shake being itself out of place or something like that. It's only always our self-image which gets attacked, or our ideas about how life should be or should not be that get attacked, you see. So what happens is as you begin to allow, we are also not in a rush to label. Guruji takes a very beautiful example of this. He says, for example, that like most people, if you have this thing that is called stage fright, so you go on the stage and you're asked to speak a few words, then you feel like, 'Oh, but I'm so anxious,' you see. 'I'm so anxious.' And then if you notice the construct, the energetic construct of that sensation, you will notice that it's very similar to the construct of another sensation that we experience which we call excitement. If you're going on a holiday and you're excited, you know, 'Today I'm going to go to this beautiful place,' if you just look at it in terms of what the energy construct is, it's not so different, you see. But when the mind labels it anxiety, then we get more anxiety about the anxiety. And when the mind labels it excitement, then we feel like this is an occasion to celebrate and feel good.

But yeah, when we just meet, you see, meet everything for however it is showing up, then we are completely aware that all that is showing up just comes and goes. This too shall pass. So whether we have labeled it good or bad, you see, we don't even have to repeat it mentally to say 'this too shall pass' because we are just so aware of ourselves in that way that that implicit knowledge is present even without having to remember it, that this is just a passing phase. So that is why when you're coming to satsang, you're constantly being reintroduced to your deathless reality, you see, and that which cannot be hurt or harmed in any way no matter what the perceptual phenomenal conditions may be. And as you are reminding yourself—as you are not mentally reminding, but as you are recognizing yourself over and over again, you see—then the propensity to fear the fear will start to settle down a bit and start to settle down a bit.

The other antidote to fear, to fearing the fear, is to just surrender. Just surrender and say, like when we say 'Guru kripa kevalam,' it means that Master's grace is all there is. So whatever happens is happening with my Master's grace.

Okay, I tried that, but I see... I think I know... no, I completely understand. I completely understand that I try to surrender, but something is not doing it.

It's fine. Don't pick up any guilt about our unworthiness about not surrendering completely or something like that. It is just like you continue to notice. As you are noticing, then the inquiries and everything just moves organically. So the words that come to you in satsang are never meant to make you feel like you're not doing a good enough job or something like that. They are just meant to see something in you which then seems to sprout organically on its own.

Thank you so much. And I don't want to take all the time from everyone, but thank you so much.

Oh, thanks. I'm so glad to have the opportunity to speak to you. Thank you. Something is catching my throat, so I just... okay. The next hand is... thank you, thank you, my dear. Chanda can come.

Father, I have been doing self-inquiry and I find the words of truth come to me when I least expect them, and I see the whole scenario changes. I feel wholly open and empty and very, very quiet and very, very still. But then, Father, I feel that as I interact with people, I tend to be taking on their energy. So I feel whether if this body perceives anxiety or stress or other energies in them, I'm taking those energies onto myself, and that brings me back into 'holy person' and identity immediately. So after that, I try to be open and empty, but I know it's just the mind telling itself to be open and empty. Is there any... what is this perception of taking on energy of other people or environment? Like, I'm in Vrindavan right now and I just feel the energy in Vrindavan is just so, so beautiful. And then my mind says that energy everywhere is beautiful, just be open and empty, it's all consciousness. So I'm kind of confused and bewildered then. Yes, what to do about that?

Yes, yes. Okay, my dear. So let's walk through this step by step because this is an interesting conversation I've had a few times. One time what happened, actually, is a very interesting story. One—we won't get into names obviously—but one had an awakening experience, you see. And after the awakening experience, then she felt like she would like to share satsang; she would like to share what she felt, you know, the pointers to help others in this journey and things like this. But what happened is that as she started to share satsang, she had a similar experience where she felt like she's just taking on everybody's energy to herself. And then she called me and said, 'But this is not what I bargained for.' So it's very natural for this to happen.

But let's look through this in your example and see. So we do the self-inquiry, we come to a Self, we recognize that myself is not restricted to this body. It is that which is beyond time and space, beyond all that is manifest, and that which is manifest at best is an aspect of my reality. Yes, one just becomes very, very quiet and their sense of separation seems to be not there anymore. Very good, very good. So separation is gone. That means there are no others. There is no 'me' and then there are no 'others' left, you see.

Then what happens? Then what happens is we get into conversations, you see. And even at that point, from your report, it seemed like we've not invented another yet; it is just a movement still within consciousness. But when something feels, in a way, bombarded with energy coming from others, that may be the invention of others. Is it like that?

It's almost like, Father, when one starts talking, and the mind starts coming into it, one is slowly aware that the mind has come into it and it's the mind interacting. And awareness, the wholeness of the experience, just washes away and there is just that mind. It becomes more mind and ego and nothing.

Okay. So in a way, you're saying is that even before the bombardment of energy happens, the minute it comes to interactions, there's an idea of others. Because it is the mind, and when we go into the mind, then the mind is always painting portraits of myself as separate from the others. And when it comes to interacting, it can feel like I have to go to the mind, otherwise interaction doesn't seem to happen. Or there's a habit that we have where we feel like when we are alone, you see, it's easy to not go to the mind, but when it comes to human relationships or interactions, it can feel like that is the only way we have to engage.

But I want to tell you that that intuitive intelligence, you see, which runs this entire universe, can also run interactions, you see. It is independent of any sort of dependency on the mind's advice, you see. Many times you also notice that life doesn't follow... the mind is saying, 'Say like this, like this, like this,' but the words coming out of the mouth seem to be different, you see. So there's a deeper intelligence. For example, when the sharing of satsang happens, you see, it is just words are arising from here and I am hearing them. I am hearing them like you are hearing them. Both 'I' and 'you' in quotes, you see, we are hearing them fresh.

What is the intelligence which is speaking these words? It is that very same intuitive intelligence which is running this life, which can use this mouth to speak as well. So if it can share in this way, then it can share in every situation. So then you will find more and more that even when you are in interactions, you will let your intuition, your intuitive presence, allow it to speak for itself without feeling like, 'But I have to go to the mind to interact,' you know. And your mind will attack you in many ways saying, 'But can you talk to the security guard with your intuition?' Yes. 'Can you talk to a business partner with your intuition?' Yes. 'Can you talk to children, relationship, anything?' This intuitive presence has no limitation. It is running this universe. It is running all this gravitational electricity, light, sound—all of these powers are in service to this consciousness. In the same way, it can run this mouth quite well. It doesn't need any sort of assistance from the voice of limitation to assist it in conducting any sort of conversation, you see.

So more and more experiment with this. And you see what will happen is that sometimes the mind will put you in this sort of rush because the intuitive presence is not rushed. So it's easy, 'Now I'm trying to be intuitive about this, but nothing is coming.' You see, this kind of fear tactics it'll use. But try it out. You will not lose anything, you see. You will learn to trust this grace of this divine presence, you see. So then what might happen is that your mind might shift and saying, 'Yes, now interactions also fine. We have not yet invented me and the others, and yet everything seems to play out in front of us quite fine,' you see.

But this energy business, this energy business... 'That is not what I signed up for,' you see. 'Because I work so hard to make myself empty, then the minute I come in contact with so-called others, then I'm getting all of this stuff, you see. Maybe I should move to a cave or something where I don't have to engage with this sort of energy.' Is it? But in the same way, I want to tell you that it has nothing to do with you. Just like water finds its level, you see, how to find its level, energy also—the manifest energy of consciousness—finds its level, you see. But if you take ownership over one body or one set of sensations and say, 'No, no, this should be open and empty, and I am unwilling to be the overall universal movement of this energy,' then that is not true spirituality. That is spirituality for, in a way, for selfish ends.

Anyone who is sharing satsang, for example, or coming to more and more recognition of themselves, for example, will not say that, 'May this body not experience what that one is experiencing because that is their problem,' you see. In fact, it may become the reverse and say, 'If anyone has to experience it, may it be here because I am open enough to deal with it without suffering as much as they will.' So that you don't have to force yourself to pick up that perspective, but that naturally will also become a natural part of your existence. Here, for example, I will say to all of you and with complete integrity that I would much, much rather if you're going through something energetically, you see, I would say, 'May my children not have to endure that. Let it be experienced here because here it's mostly peanuts and popcorn, it's not such a big deal,' you know. And it's the same there as here—and 'there' provisionally we are saying, you see. But I also recognize that that sort of thing is also great grace sometimes because we will make interpretations of that and we will suffer, and sometimes that suffering is important because it opens us up, you see. So I just feel like it is being handled very well by consciousness and we must not try and second guess how that movement is happening. Like, who is the doer and the experiencer of this energetic play? That is that same consciousness. But we cannot truly say that, you see. We come into the inquiry and discover ourselves beyond this realm of time and space, and our manifest is this entire universality of existence, and then say, 'No, no, but your energy I can't have,' you see. There's too much dichotomy in those two perspectives. And true openness means whatever is Master's grace, you see. The Master's grace is not making a mistake.

Like, who is the doer and the experiencer of this energetic play? That is that same consciousness. But we cannot truly say that, you see. We come into the inquiry and discover ourselves beyond this realm of time and space, and our manifest is this entire universality of existence. And then say, 'No, no, but your energy I can't have.' You see, there's too much dichotomy in those two perspectives. And true openness means whatever is Master's grace, you see. The Master's grace is not making a mistake. Nobody made a mistake sending that to you. It is all part of a universal grace. In fact, the sangha is a refuge in that way, not just in the way of giving information to each other or spiritual concepts to each other, but you feel supported energetically also by the sangha. And all sangha members who are coming to more and more openness, more and more emptiness, will find that there are times that they seem to take on this kind of movement, but they are not resistive towards that. They trust the Master's grace that whatever is being brought is being brought with the supreme intelligence in operation. So, in simple words, nothing for you to worry about. Nothing for you to deal with or worry about. Greater forces are at play than our mind can understand. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you. So far, is it okay if I'm sitting in Vrindavan and feeling happy, and it doesn't mean I'm avoiding Delhi, is it? I am avoiding Delhi?

No, it's fine. That's fine. Everything is fine. Thank you, Father. Instead of asking, 'Am I avoiding Delhi?' I think it's better to ask, 'Who is the I?' You see, because in the 'Am I avoiding or not avoiding?' the identity seems to be predetermined, which is this body-mind. But we cannot really confirm that, isn't it? So, become a bit uncertain about who the 'I' is before we want certainty on whether what is showing up is good or bad or right or wrong. Before we can have certainty on the movement of appearances, we must try and get to some sort of certainty about who we are first, you see, because that is the substratum. So if there is false certainty about who we are, which is this body-mind, then we must get to some 'I don't know' about that, because you don't know who you are. And then all the inquiry, all the pointers are there for you to come to that self-realization about yourself. And then you will notice that the 'What should I be doing? Is this right? Is this wrong?' kind of questions, they just dissolve in the recognition of reality. Good, good, good. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, let's hear from Peter.

I want to come back to the inquiry because there's a thing that I notice very often. If I'm following a question in the inquiry, for example, 'Who is it that is even aware of being?' then those questions, they dissolve very soon. It's like there's something... I cannot hold the question. It's like if I'm getting deeper and emptier, the question somehow disappears. I cannot hold it anymore. It's just emptiness. And it feels as if all falls into one and there is no more beingness, there is no more awareness, there's just this complete emptiness and I cannot hold this question anymore.

Yes, yeah, exactly. Very good. So the question has done its job, you see. You bought a ticket to the show, and once you got to the show, then you no longer need the ticket, you see. And I hope that in this report, which is very beautiful, I hope that when you mean that all that is left is emptiness, it is also something that you are saying just for conversation, just to communicate, to point to your experience, which is not... it is hopefully not, 'Oh, this is so empty, this is so empty.' It is empty even of that, isn't it?

Yes. There's sometimes in the beginning there's still an observation of emptiness. There's some kind of knowing, 'Now, this is emptiness.' But this also disappears somehow.

Yes, yes, yes. Because that where you pointed to cannot actually know emptiness. It tries to be your tour guide for some time and say, 'Aha, see, now this is... we are visiting emptiness. Look on your left, emptiness here,' you see? But then it can't survive in the potency of the inquiry. It also goes away, you see. One tip I want to give you and everyone is that many times we take like a darkness, just like a dark empty space, to signify emptiness. But that is also not really the answer. It is just that which is aware even of that dark empty space, which is what I feel you're pointing to. But just to clarify, because many times this is where the mind comes in: when you start experiencing like a darkness, the absence of perception as a darkness, usually the mind will come and say, 'Ah, this is so spacious and it is so empty.' But the spaciousness and the emptiness we are speaking of is that which is aware even of that.

Yes, that which is aware even of them. There's no darkness.

Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. No darkness, no light, you see. Just for communication we can use terms like dark or light or empty or full, but all of these don't have any meaning there. Thank you. Very good. And when the inquiry stops, let's say... you see, I'm doing this a lot today, I noticed that. Then when this manifest seems to play out again or is more in attention, you see, then what changes?

You mean when these questions disappear? When the inquiry just disappears, what I was talking about?

Yeah. So suppose the inquiry disappears and then, like, the questions of the inquiry disappear, but then you're back to, let's say, day-to-day life. Then what changes?

Yes, it's... yeah, there's still some... when I'm back in daily life, there's still some thought coming up sometimes. Well, I hope the emptiness will not disappear completely or something like that, but this is also seen. And during daytime, sometimes those questions just come again. The inquiry just comes again. And sometimes this question arises: 'Who is watching all this? Who is doing all this?'

Yeah, yeah. But I'm saying that even when you are not in the inquiry, whatever the question of the inquiry may be, the reality of yourself, you see, does not change. And the apparency of that reality is always available to you, you see. So there comes a point that you don't always need to specifically ask and say, 'Who am I?' or 'Who is aware of awareness?' or 'Who is aware of existence?' You see, sometimes it can feel like just... clear. No? Even though it was easy, clear. And then you don't even need that. It's just like a... like that. And just clarity. And then even that is not easy because all this can shake about, but in reality nothing is changing. So the non-phenomenal taste of your true self is not just when we are in the inquiry; it is always available. And the inquiry is helpful because something becomes really clear: that it's always available. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I sort of got reminded of this beautiful set of instructions from Bhagwan that we were going through just yesterday, some of us. He said that the Atma is always the Atma. It is not something that you will gain; it is not something that you can lose, you see. All that is needed, all that is needed—he's very clear about that—is that we no longer practice, you see, being the not-self or identifying as the not-self, you see. So the truth does not need to be practiced. It is that we just have to stop practicing the false. And what is the practice of the false? It is ignorance, you see. It is to take yourself to be that which you are not. So what happens, he said, is very beautiful examples here. One example was just when we are digging, you see, when we are digging a hole, it is just that all the dirt is taken out, but we do not create the space. The space is already there, you see. And when we are trying to make room, we just remove objects and the room is already there. In the same way, reality, truth, Atma Gyan, whatever you may call it, is already there. All that is needed is that these mental conditions, these vasanas, are taken out, you see.

Then the questioner says, 'Okay, okay, thank you, very helpful. Now how do I take out these mental conditions or vasanas?' And that is when Bhagwan's one-two punch comes into play, you know. So he said, 'You are free from them now.' So beautiful, isn't it? Because first of all, you have to empty it out. All that you have to do is empty it out, you see. So it gets rid of one misconception. Then with the second punch, it takes out the idea of any doership about any of that. And the questioner says, 'How can I empty myself? How can I take out ignorance?' He says, 'Right now you are free from it.' The intellect cannot understand it because to the intellect the two will seem contradictory, because first he said, 'Take out, take out, take out the dirt,' then he said, 'But it's already out,' you see. But this kind of pointing pushes you out of the intellect and brings you to a now which is not a now in time, brings you here to a here which is not in space. And most of you in satsang have had at least glimpses of this, what I'm speaking of. Okay, some more hands. Okay, Shiv. Ah, Shiv, and then Sita will come after you.

Hello, Father. You can hear me? Yes, yes. Sorry, where is the camera? To share something with you which is somewhat conceptual, but no, I'm not even sure. But you know, we tend to do these sort of things, so I'm doing it again. So the other day, me and some of my college friends were having a chat and then the hard problem of consciousness came up. The hard problem of consciousness.

The hard problem? Okay, okay. I haven't heard of it. Okay.

Okay, I'll tell you about it. So it's this: fundamentally the question is, how does matter give rise to experience? I'm paraphrasing using my own words. You know, matter and... so then for a while I was trying to lay out the differences between these two things: our experience of something and whatever material processes culminated in it. There is one final transformation which is somewhat weird. Like, for instance, the experience of a color. The experience of red is very different from the materialistic conception of it as an electromagnetic wave, an alternating electromagnetic wave going through a field. So the experience of red, how you see that, is different from this electromagnetic wave, this physical electromagnetic wave. And that person somehow got it. But then another person also... we had a different conversation. But what really made it special was something like this: that you know, this was the first time when I felt that I know something but I don't know how to... I have no words to capture it in, like trying to point toward what that consciousness is and about how, you know, it's all experience and the potential for experience in a way is consciousness. And so I've picked it up from places, whatever. But I just wanted to know if this is the consciousness that you talk about. Because I mean, one other thing that I noticed is that the reason why I suspect the hard problem of consciousness evades being solved now is because, first of all, our sense experience, based on which we construct science—empirical sciences—they're all validated by sense experience. And sense experience is all consciousness. And from this we abstracted out matter, and from that matter we're trying to get back to consciousness. So I suspect that the mistake is there in the first step where you try to abstract out matter from sense experience or any experience, consciousness. And I'm exploring that also, whatever. But I wanted to know if this is also somewhat in alignment with how these Westerners talk about consciousness, qualia, this, that, all of that. So I wanted to know if this is the consciousness that you also talk about.

In a way. In a way. The only distinction would be that when we talk about potentiality, usually in physical terms or physics terms, if you talk about potentiality...

I'm exploring that also, but I wanted to know if this is also somewhat in alignment with how these Westerners talk about consciousness, qualia, this, that, all of that. So I wanted to know if this is the consciousness that you also talk about.

In a way, in a way. The only distinction would be that when we talk about potentiality, usually in physical terms or physics terms, if you talk about potentiality, it is limited, you see. When potential energy expresses itself into another form of energy—kinetic energy, whatever other energy—then it runs out, you see. But this is that potentiality, it is that spring which can jump, but it doesn't run out of potential energy because it has jumped.

But what would be the jump here? Manifesting something?

Manifesting, right, right, right, right. So the primordial consciousness, I am-ness, Om, whatever you call it, is manifesting this entire play within itself. But it is not that it itself is reduced in some way by doing that, you see. That is why that 'Purnamadah Purnamidam'—it remains the whole. The whole comes out of the whole, and yet that which it came out from remains whole.

I think that's how I was also trying to... I mean, it's complete freedom, right? Yeah, it can be anything. And yeah, but okay, so otherwise it's the same consciousness that you talk about?

Yeah. Well, mine doesn't need, mine doesn't need so much hard work.

Yeah, yeah. No, but I feel that also. Mine is not a hard problem; it is not even a soft problem. I am not. That's it. Yeah, yeah, that's all I wanted to share with you, Father. I just want to thank you, thank you, thank you.

Yeah, I enjoy it. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And I have nothing to say, actually. I don't have any question. I don't know if I have something to share. I know that I have, but I don't know, Father, I don't know. I just wanted to meet with you and I don't know.

Yeah. What is this place you're in?

Ah, yes. Today I have arrived in Rumi's tomb again. The anniversary of... yeah, it's called the Sheb-i Arus in your turn.

The anniversary of what? It's called his wedding day? I think it's Mahasamadhi day. It's called like this.

Yeah, so I have come again. I've been growth, actually. So yeah, it's just like this, actually. Yes, there is so many things happening, but um, I don't know if I have something to offer. But if you feel you can ask a question, I very much appreciate it.

That you're there now... where are you exactly in relation to the tomb? Is it allowed that you can share some visuals from there?

I'm so sorry about this because just right now I have quit. I will check. I was inside, actually, I think, but I couldn't.

The building behind you is the tomb, is it?

It's the outside of the tomb, yes, like this. Okay, I will show it outside again. And it's in restoration right now, so the beautiful place couldn't be seen. There is a restoration here, this blue thing.

Yeah, I see. Very nice. So blessed, so blessed that we can meet in this auspicious place.

I don't know, I just want to talk with you a lot, but I don't know about what or what to say even. I'm just also enjoying this darshan of Ram Ji. Okay, Father, so I will be here about ten days and we have a chunk with you. Yes, so next time or whenever, I will be inside and I'm going to show inside. It's all of you.

Oh yeah, it's such a happiness for us to do this too. So okay, so see you next time then.

That sounds wonderful. And all of us, all of us are with you in this auspicious journey, pilgrimage. Yesterday was the Mahasamadhi day? Yesterday or today?

No, it's seventeenth. Yeah, I don't know, there is a couple of days. Yeah, six days later. Yeah, I'm so happy, you know. I'm always be brought here, so I found myself here always. And yes, it's such a blessing, actually. It's such a gift from Guruji because after him it has started. So yeah, actually I have to say that it's only because of Guruji that I can relate in a way to Sri Rumi in this way because being a Vedantin mostly in conditioning here, we don't talk so much of the beloved and love and this kind of thing. So only through Guruji did I get a true, true darshan of that, of course in his expression because it is so loving and I just feel like my beloved when I'm at Guruji. So then I could relate a little more to the beautiful sharings of Rumi Ji and Shams and you know, that whole tradition. I have to say that mostly this conditioning still continues to be Vedantin, so I don't automatically gravitate to those kind of writings in all honesty. But I can tell that the immensity of insight and love is only one who is one with God; those kind of words can only come from there. It's very, very beautiful. So thank you for this darshan today.

Thank you. Auspicious time, six days before the Mahasamadhi. Thank you. And also, so that reminds me that all of us bow down humbly at the holy feet of Sri Osho Ji for his beautiful birthday today, and may his grace continue to shine on all of us. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity, and I am privileged that some of Osho Ji's children also then come to Satsang and they feel some resonance with this expression as well. So it's all, all the one Satguru's grace which is moving all these instruments.

Thank you so much, Father. Thank you for coming and thanks to all the Sangha and much love from here to you. And you are you, all of us, all of you are here with us. So thank you, thank you.

I'm sure everyone's very happy to have had that visual. The rest of you can see the recording. Okay, more will come, Inshallah.

Hey Father, how are you? It's so lovely to see you and I'm only, I'm only able to join sometimes at the moment, but um, it's I'm just so grateful I am able to join. So it's just a thing that is coming up like to ask and like I seem to be pretty rubbish at self-inquiry. Yeah, pretty like it's so funny because it's a very inconsistent experience for me. And I suppose that's okay because sometimes it's like, you know, like your questions, can I stop being? You know, obviously not. Oh sorry, maybe, maybe I'm too far from my... I don't know where my microphone is on this computer.

Also we moved our speaker a bit away because it was interfering with the sound. Is my sound still looking or is there too much of the humming in the background? So okay, here it's totally clear here. Okay, okay, so this way I can hear you better. Yeah, okay, okay good. So I got the part about being inconsistent and not so regular, was it? Or with the inquiry, and sometimes the questions seem very strong and sometimes they are powerless, is it like that?

Yeah, it's a bit like, it's kind of like sometimes it's... I mean, it's always obvious, but then so often, I often anyway just in life there's anxiety about a lot of life things going on, you know? But that's going on, so maybe that makes it more difficult to sink into the answer because sometimes it's like it's the same question but the peace, lovely peace arrives or, you know, is seen or whatever. And so I see, yes, of course I'm awareness, like obviously, or something like that, you know, maybe not exactly those words. And then I can sink into it and that feels like, that feels nourishing, it feels fulfilling, it feels like this is hopefully heading in the right direction. And then other times it's like, even though most of the time it must be said, even though I can see, yeah, yes, of course, obviously I'm aware of this because that's before anything, yeah, and there isn't any visuals with it, there's nothing, it's very indescribable, but kind of awareness is a good word for it. And and yet it doesn't sink. And then I think, oh, you're so rubbish at inquiring, come on, like you know? And I well I just haven't, you know, I just sort of have to go with it, I don't know. And then it feels like I'm just, you know, like the worst disciple kind of thing, the worst devotee who doesn't know how to do. And it's, you know, I don't want to be like that sort of towards you in a way. It's like I don't know how to relate properly to you or something. I don't know, I just wanted to put it out there.

So okay, this is good. This is good. Thank you, thank you for that report. I don't know if you told me this and what I responded, but actually what you said reminded me so much of how this one's expression played out before he met Guruji, you know? And so it was someday inquiry was so good, like 'Who am I?' Thought is coming, who is witnessing that thought? More thought is coming, who is witnessing that thought? And then just Om Shanti Shanti, you know. Then days like that, and some days just not happening. Who am I? Who cares? You know, it's just like, what's the point? Yes, like that. Maybe it's not meant for you, do some chanting then, you know. Then just, yeah, this is working, this is so nice, why do I waste time with inquiry? Just chant, you know, Ram will sort it out. After some time, but are you really a Ram bhakt? I feel like Shiva is super potent, you see, because the Ram thing, it's not working so well now. So Om Namah Shivaya. Why do I confuse myself with inquiry and Ram chanting? It's just Shiva for me, you know. Then after a few days this stuff, you know, chanting is not so direct, I need something more direct. Let me try the inquiry. Who am I? Ah, so clear. Why do I confuse my... there is a full, full this kind of circular loop now. And many things, I've just told you three, but sometimes chanting with mala, sometimes chanting no mala, sometimes all kinds of thing, you see. So if somebody was to make a template out of Ananta's life and say that is the way to get to freedom, then inconsistency is the way. So you should not at all feel like you're unworthy disciple or something because you're just following the master's footsteps, you see. So, so it's fine like this also. And the thing is that we may have something that make us feel like inquiry is not working. For example, is that you gave me a clue as you spoke about it, was that the idea that it must lead to something, that it must lead to a state of peace or it must lead to some stability in joy or a set of better feelings or something like that, you see. Now what if we do not burden the inquiry with any of that? It is just truth for truth's sake, Self for Self's sake, and not because the truth can give us something or the Self can give us something or the inquiry must give us something. But it's just because it is such a direct way to stop living a lie, you see, to stop living a misidentification or a limited notion about ourselves, you see. So what if that was the only thing that happened, that it brings you face to face, so to speak, with your reality and doesn't give you anything else in return? Like you cannot ask, 'So what, what's in it for me about it?' And if it just meant for that immediate darshan, would it still be worth it or not, you see?

It is. I know it is because it's... and that's what's so weird about it. It's like that has been a strong thing inside me for for a very, very long time way before I met you, not knowing how to still, of course, but... and but of course the old ego was always kicking in. It's like, yeah, that's great too, but like some nice... you know, they're both, unfortunately they're both going on. They're both going on in this one here anyway, you know. But certainly yeah, just for its own sake, that's brilliant. Like that's, that's it's all there, it's fine.

It's fine. A bit of that back and forth oscillating is natural in, in, in this life. It's quite natural. So don't overburden yourself with expectations or any idea that by now they should have gone or it should be like this. The universe is not messing up your recipe. You're, you're being cooked perfectly fine.

And and some, yeah, because sometimes that even comes through is like, well I can't really do anything about it anyway, you know? It sort of...

That sounds like a good opportunity to ask: who is the guy who can't do anything?

Yes, yes. Yeah, that you know, because the practices are done, I suppose, by the body-mind or whatever, you know, because they require diligence or whatever, you know. But choosing to do yoga or apparently so anyway, you know, things like this. Well, apparently they require some discipline and diligence and all of these things.

Sometimes that even comes through is like, well, I can't really do anything about it anyway, you know? It's sort of...

That sounds like a good opportunity to ask: who is the guy who can't do anything? Yes, yes, yeah. That, you know, because the practices are done, as opposed, by the body-mind or whatever, you know, because they require diligence or whatever, you know. But choosing to do yoga, or apparently so anyway, you know, things like this—well, apparently they require some discipline and diligence and all of these things. But not the way it happened here. It was a big spiritual soup here, and yet Grace takes care of it. And that's why I say that if it is possible for this, in this expression of consciousness, for the truth to be found, then it is—it must be possible for everyone. And that is a blessing and a prediction. It is not something that we must... you can say, 'Oh, I should have found it by now. If that guy who was so inconsistent with his practices found it at a particular age, then what are you doing?' It's not meant in that way. It is just meant to be a blessing and a hopeful prediction, you know, full of possibility, full of divinity.

Trust anything that makes you empty in that moment, whatever the type of inquiry or practice it may be. It may not even be anything, just the reminder that: empty. Yes, anything that opens you up is good enough.

Yeah, I think I have to drop a lot more of the expectation. There's... and that's to suppose, because when I feel anxious, I want to feel more peace because it's a bit unsettling when it goes on for a long time. But anyway, that's...

You cannot have a master and a problem. All problems then belong to the master. There's nothing to be anxious about because once you're on the guru train, then the guru is driving the train to exactly where it needs to go. You see, anxiety is: 'Are we there yet? Why aren't we there yet? Are we going in the right way?' You see? But to have that devotion in your heart and to say 'I have a master' implies that—inherent in that having a master is inherent that you are being taken care of.

That's good. That's good to hear again. Thank you so much for saying that.

So welcome. So, and I've always said this to you every time you come, that it's always such a joy to hear you, to see your expression is always pure beauty.

Well, hopefully the travel things will change in, well, sometime, and that can happen again.

I certainly hope so. It's lovely to be there. Looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much.

Let's see, I'll just dive into the chat somewhere. I don't feel like I can catch up with everything. One says, 'Is it better to ask questions or raise hands time to time to be in Master's attention, or is it enough to just be in the Satsang even if Master may not be noticing us being there?' No such template exists. If there's an urge to raise your hand and ask a question, sometimes you can, just to be in the attention as you speak is fine. And sometimes you're just there without any need for any of that sort of interaction or conversation; that's completely fine too. Like this is completely fine. This in a way is indirectly that as well, which is sweet.

And I find it... then one says, 'Are Grade A emotions, which is provisional...' Okay, Grade A and Grade B, it's not a new sort of conceptual understanding that I am propagating, just to explain some concepts. 'So are Grade A emotions, perceptions, and sensations also mentally constructed and fabricated?' It depends on what we mean by mentally. If we take the smaller definition of mentally, which is that it's a bundle of thoughts, which means that we've taken a set of energy constructs and only that set we call the mind, then no, these are different constructs. But if we take the mind to be everything, you see, like the big mind, then everything is an ocean, everything is actually a mental construct in the mind of consciousness itself.

Okay, some question on the energies which I feel was answered rather many times. 'I hear clearly and feel a vibration like Om. Yes, if I feel it feeds me, is this the meaning of Omkar?' Yes, yes, yes. This is the primordial, the pure beingness itself. Yes. 'Father, can you please pray for me? Take care of everything that afflicts you.' Okay, thank you. One says, 'Sri Rumi speaks of the heart so often. Is it the same as Bhagwan's heart?' One heart. 'Father, is there a romance of God in Vedanta?' Not in that way, at least not in that way, at least. Of course, there is a talk of a deep longing, deep, deep longing for the truth. You have a deep, deep desire and longing for just the truth. So in a way we can say like that. Any other... we have some Vedantins in this room. This is the different cultural context and different ways of expression, so we mustn't worry too much about that.

And one says, 'Father, we will be Buddha.' Question: 'When we remove "will be" and the question mark, and not just wordplay, right now you are that.' So it is our idea of time and attaining in time. The Self is not something that we will attain. It is only that, as Bhagwan said, you have to remove the ignorance. And when will ignorance be removed? Right now.

Then one says, 'Anantaji, there is a saying: when you are closer to the garden of truth, you start getting the fragrance. But most times the heart is looking for progress. Please throw some light.' They're saying like this: when we are closer to the truth, what happens? You start getting the fragrance, but the heart sidetracks you. Is it like that? Confuses you with progress or a sense of achievement or any of that? But actually, what I'm pointing to is beyond 'closer' or time-based or space-based. So just more direct, direct.

'Father, can you guide us into how to pray for someone by putting them in our heart in a pure way?' Just pray like a child. Just pray like a child. Don't have any sort of way to do it. You want to pray, just pray as if you were talking to a parent. That is one way. If you want to be... 'Father, can you please pray for me and my family?' May all of you be in the complete care of my Master's Grace.

Then next one says, 'Father, I want to realize the truth only because I think it gives eternal happiness and peace. Is this a wrong way to approach this? Please help. I am feeling very low and dull.' Okay, so suppose you come to a point where you want to realize the truth, you see? Now it's like saying, 'I want to get to New Delhi because in New Delhi I have all of that.' You see? Now if you constantly keep thinking of the 'because,' you see, you will never take a step, you'll never move towards it. So to come to that, there must come a point where we let go of all the reasoning and the 'because' and why we started the journey, and we just take a step. So the realization of the truth is that one moment of true insight, immediate insight, you see? But what gets in the way is 'I want, I want, I want, I want, I want.' Okay, you want it, fine. But can we keep it aside for just one moment and give the truth a chance? Sometimes I joke and say even with pizza we're willing to wait for thirty minutes, but with truth we want immediate benefits. Can you give the truth thirty minutes at least? That much? Like before... can we give Sat-Chit thirty minutes before Ananda comes, or do we have to burden ourselves with this expectation of Ananda constantly? That is why when I talk about truth for truth's sake, or God for God's sake, it is not because God is incapable of providing happiness or peace; it is because our constant expectation just stops the true Darshan.

Okay, God has a question. You can come.

Hello, hello. Hey Father, can you hear me? Yes, I only hear you, though I don't see you yet. I'm sorry. Hey Father, you know, it's so funny that just yesterday we were speaking about you. Oh yeah, isn't it? Just yesterday we were speaking about you, about how you met in Chicago and you actually came to visit me in Bloomington when I dropped my son, and we actually took his room together. And you told me... I remember you saying this because you got worried when I said Bloomington, because you felt it was Bloomington, Illinois. Actually, it was Bloomington, Indiana. You were a bit relieved to see that. We were just speaking about this yesterday and so, so nice to see you. It's always nice to see you, Father.

You know that I gotta say I love you very, very, very much. Natural being, just the real you. I have a question. You know, I come from a Christian background and I told you about my grandmother and everything. And last week you were saying if you listen to a bhajan, something that kind of points you or brings you to like a peaceful place or whatever, do that. And a lot of times I listen to old hymns, right? Mahalia Jackson is like a real go-to of mine, right? What's the name again? Mahalia Jackson. Can you hear me? Should I speak up? Mahalia... you just find this fan. Okay, okay, yeah. And actually on Apple Music, on my Apple Music account, I seen that that was a song of hers that was played the most was 'Old Rugged Cross.' And it's just a song where she's talking about how Jesus suffered on the cross, and I just loved that song. She just sings it and it just always connected with it, you know.

I'm not even like deeply Baptist or even deeply into gospel music, but that song gets me, right? I was conditioned and I was raised to not believe you, right? Like, I was raised to... especially people that come from like India and people that practice Buddhism and Advaita, you know, the different... yeah, I was raised to totally stay away from you and that that type of person will confuse me, right? So I sit on your lap, you are my Master without a doubt, but that deep conditioning is kind of a block for me. Because again, I was raised to believe that there has to be significance in the death of Jesus down on the cross and that is the only way to God and that's the only way to the kingdom of heaven and there is no other way, right? I don't know how I feel about that, but that comes up, right? And that's... I feel like that's the only kind of block for me. Not to say that I don't need to believe it or that is just... I don't know, I get confused. But I'm not confused because I know, like I told you before, your way is right. What you say is right. I feel it in my heart. When I... I don't know. And then I was even scared to bring this up to you because... not even scared, but I know feelings are visitors and things come and go and I just, you know how I do, shrink down, sit on your lap and be still. It's my Father's problem. But that still comes up, you know. You're not really recognizing Jesus down on the cross. I told you my grandma said, 'Boy, you're going to burn in hell.' I don't know. Could you speak on that?

Yes, yes, yes. It happened one time that I've shared this story before, maybe with you, but I feel open enough to share with everyone. There was a man who used to come and visit me, you know, and he was a very nice man. His name was John and he was a foreigner living in India. And what happened is that he would just come under some pretext and we would talk and things like this. And then what happened is after a while I realized that he actually had the feeling—and this was many years ago before I met Guruji—that he had the feeling that he wanted to convert me like formally into Christianity or something like this. And I had some very beautiful conversations with this man because I said that everything that Jesus said I'm not opposed to. In fact, I'm completely in line with his complete trust that he was my Father's son, the Father's son. There's no doubt about that. So I don't see a reason why we need to necessarily apply a label or go through some formal process.

So I would say a similar thing to you. And what happens is that many times in the hearts of a devotee there can be some feeling that this becomes the only way, you know, this idea that it is only... but I feel like when Jesus, for example, said 'I am the way' or even if he said 'I am the only way, follow me,' he was not pointing to a particular way in that way. He was pointing to the holiness of Divine Presence.

There is no reason why we need to necessarily apply a label or go through some formal process. So, I would say a similar thing to you. What happens is that many times in the hearts of a devotee, there can be some feeling that this becomes the only way, you know, this idea that it is only. But I feel like when Jesus, for example, said 'I am the way' or even if he said 'I am the only way, follow me,' he was not pointing to a particular way in that way. He was pointing to the holiness of divine presence. The way to the Absolute is through the divinity of presence, and there is no doubt here that he was a pure embodiment of that divinity or presence, just in the way that the other great beautiful masters and sages have been.

So, for Grandma, I don't know what to say, but if it helps in some way, you can tell her that Ananta also feels like Jesus was a pure embodiment of divinity, this true Son of God. There's no doubt about that. The only point of difference I may have in this expression is to say that that is the only expression that we can bow right down to. In a way, if we consider that all expressions of true divinity are in one way or the other the same, you see, then I can admit to even that. But whether we bow down to Krishna or we bow down to Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, to Guruji, to Papaji, to all the great ones—Anandamayi Ma, Jesus, Allah—you see, all of these as what is important is about bowing down. What is important is to change the locus of devotion from 'me, me, me' to a greater divinity. That is paramount.

In fact, when we went to London this time—was it in London? Some of you are here, Victoria and Mike—you know, we actually, this group of people, we were going to meet in a park. And this group of people started talking to us and it started very well because they were just telling me about 'Jesus said this' and this was the pointing, and I was agreeing with everything they were saying, actually, until it came to a point about eternal damnation if you don't follow. You see, everything up to that point I had no problem with it, right? The final fear tactic saying 'You better now become this way, otherwise hell is waiting for you'—that is my only point of disagreement in that whole conversation. Otherwise, you were being very attentive and you were listening to a lot of what is being said, and it reminded me a lot of Guruji, actually. You see?

So, I have no such problem. I feel no distinction between any expression of the Lord and I am forever at the holy feet of all of these expressions. So, that is how I feel. And I feel like in Jesus' life there are so many beautiful things we can learn from. You see, one is: what is the worst that can happen to you? Your best friend can betray you, you can get betrayed by your best friend, get hung up on a cross, you can be left there to die. You see? And in that, you see, you can still have the compassion in your heart to say, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.' In that, where everything that we can humanly imagine goes wrong in our life, you see, this is the embodiment of pure grace of the Lord to be able to say even though for a moment... and also that reassurance is given to us, which is a very hopeful reassurance because we may waver for a moment. You see, waver for a moment and say, 'Oh Father, have you forsaken me?' You see, but very quickly come back to 'Forgive them, Father, because they know not what they do.' You see, what a beautiful embodiment.

And such beautiful sayings—and please forgive me if I'm misquoting something—but even a statement like 'Those who have shall be given more, and those who do not, even what they have will be taken away from them.' You see, the mind can misunderstand a statement like that and say, 'But this doesn't sound right.' You see, but it's beautiful because those who are grateful, those who are open, they will receive. And those who feel like they don't have, they're just blocked; even what they have could be taken away from them. So there's a lot of beautiful, beautiful pointing that is available from the masters. And Jesus was a beautiful master. We've spoken today about Rumi Ji, about Osho Ji, about Jesus Ji, you know, although it's not usually referred to like that, but he deserves all our reverence as well for being such a beautiful embodiment of the Father's Son.

So all I can promise you is that hell is not waiting for you if you follow what I'm saying. You are pointed to exactly, exactly the same as any master's pointing to, any true messenger of the Lord. The same. He's pointing to the very same. And I appreciate your honesty and integrity about this to bring this up so openly. It's very beautiful. And so many of these things which I felt so touched by in Jesus' life are coming. It is such a beautiful thing to be able to surrender and say the master has suffered for us on our behalf. You see, all the suffering that he has endured already, he has suffered for us, so we have no reason not to be joyful now.

Everybody is very grateful, right? I say that all the time when I think about... can you hear me? Yes? Okay. I say that all the time when I think about grace. I say that to myself. I think about you and I think about Jesus. Like, if he died on the cross, then there was nothing I could do and the price has to be paid, you know? This is debt, you know, regardless of how I feel. But lastly, so there's no real significance in the death of Jesus Christ on the cross?

It is so beautiful. It is the most hopeful blessing, most hopeful blessing for all of us. It is such a reminder that we are free in spite of the greatest suffering that can be endured in the human condition, and such a hopeful reminder of our reality. So if we take that in our heart and we bow down to that, we are free instantly. So free instantly.

What greatest... see the same way, Father. I do see the same way, like as far as your love, your compassion. I know you wouldn't say that you are Christ-like, but I see you very in Guruji, very Christ-like. Just your patience with us and compassion, even you being here right now is... thank you very much.

I had only heard about the love of Jesus before that, the love that Jesus had for his disciples and for everyone. I'd only heard about it before that. But when I met Guruji, I felt like that is it. That is the first time I met it. I met it in his expression and so, so grateful for that. In fact, many times I say that you will find rarely have we come across these kind of expressions of consciousness which embody the love of Christ and the wisdom of the highest sages in one embodiment. And we are so blessed to have Guruji in our lives.

I'm blessed to have you.

We're blessed to have you. Thank you, Father. Right. A few more prayer requests and all of you in my heart, and I am praying for the Master's grace. I feel we are good for today. Maybe we can end with some bhajans and meet on Monday. Anyway, let's see. This has subtitled 'Enjoy the music.' Thank you all so much for being in satsang today.