How Can We Find That Which is Beyond Phenomena? - 13th Sept. 2016

The 'I'. So this is unchanging, isn't it? That which knows that even the presence of being is unavailable in the sleep state, you see. To know this, it must exist in the sleep state.

What? Yeah, sorry. All right. Is there anywhere you can simplify?

Yeah. This awareness remains constant and everything else is changing. In the phenomenal realm, we cannot say that 'I am' is changing or being is changing, because everything is appearing only in the light of this presence. Yeah, is it so? This presence, and it plays along with the power of attention, then this phenomenal realm comes to life. Attention goes to an object; they seem to be real for me. They seem to exist for me, at least. So this is the phenomenal play. Now, the entire reason we are able to call this a phenomenal play must be that there is something which is beyond this phenomena, you see. So how should we find that which is beyond phenomena? Because the tools we seemingly have—the senses we have, even the sense of inner perception we have—seem to be only giving us phenomena, isn't it? So how do we find that? Is there something which is not phenomenal?

All I have to speak from the truth is just grace. Yeah, now the words that answer...

Yeah. So when we look at the two questions: 'Can you stop being now?' Can you stop being? Is it the same question as 'Are you aware now?' What is the distinction? First talk about 'Can you stop being?' What happens?

So, 'Can I stop being?' is like, can I stop this feeling of presence of being in the phenomena of existing? No.

Who is aware of this?

It. The awareness is this awareness.

So when you check on 'Am I aware now?' yeah, isn't it pointing straight to this awareness? Yeah, which is aware even of being, of consciousness. Now, is this a phenomenal experience? 'Am I aware now?' What phenomena did you experience to be able to say yes?

There's no attributes of the awareness.

And that which is without attributes is not phenomenal. You're just letting the words do... because I'm not very good with hearing these words. So just, can you say it again?

For you, would it be fair to say that everything phenomenal has at least one attribute? Can we point to some phenomena that has no attributes? Think of a phenomena with no attributes. Anything. Think of an apple without color.

Yeah, yeah. There isn't. Even if you think transparent, there will be a sense of transparency at least.

Think of an object without any weight. No weight at all. Even the lightest feather will have some weight, isn't it? Without a shape? Can you find a phenomena without a shape? So color, weight, shape, size—all of these are attributes. So everything phenomenal must have at least one attribute for us to be able to report that it is perceived, isn't it? Now, when we ask, 'Are you aware now?' what is the attribute that is found? Does this awareness have a size, shape, weight, color? What are we seeing to confirm this?

It's not even a seeing. It is a complete removal from this phenomenal world.

Yes. So when we say it is not even a seeing, it means it is not even perceived like other objects, isn't it? Not like 'I see this hand' or 'I see a memory or imagination.' It is not seen in that way. No. But it sees everything. Yes. So that which sees everything, how do we know of its existence?

Because I'm just really looking at myself, and how do I know of its existence? We can profess to the existence of being because you can sense the presence. You might not be able to name some attribute, but at least you can say presence of being is experienced. Yeah. But is there such a presence for this which is aware even of being? Is it experienced even in the subtlest way? Because I can't find a way to add it.

What is it tilting? Is the answer tilting more towards 'there is some phenomenality experienced in this awareness' or is it more towards 'no'?

I know the sense of presence because that's felt. But to say how do I know, or how am I aware of this awareness? I can't find any. It's just... I want to say it's all there is.

Yes. And yet, if you can't really find any phenomenal evidence of it, what is it that makes us say, 'Yes, I am aware' rather than 'No' or 'I don't know'? Is there something else like this, like awareness, where we can say—except it just being a blind belief in some sense—is there anything else like this which you cannot find phenomenally, but we confirm its existence?

How? The question is the same, actually. I'm just rephrasing it over and over. How do we say yes to 'Are you aware now?'

Because... so there is just where I can't find any other answer. And we see all that is. What does it mean? What about this whole phenomenal level?

But it's aware of the phenomenal realm.

Yes. And this 'it' which is aware of the phenomenal realm, who is aware of it? It is. So yes. And where are you in this equation?

Okay. So you are this one. You are this awareness. Then why did you create this world? What is the purpose of existence? All that's coming is... sorry, I'm just watching these thoughts coming now. It's a lot of... it's very much seen as being just thoughts, but they're still trying to get attention and identification. So I'm just...

Okay, let's leave purpose aside for a minute. What happens when you start to exist in this way? What changes for you?

In reality? In reality, nothing. And actually, the body carries on moving the way it's always done, and has conversations and has thoughts like it's always done. It's knowing that it's not you. And the same feelings, but there's no identification with them.

Do we truly know that it has always been this body and these feelings? Because it's the one experiencing through so many different bodies, this.

And when Anil was speaking the other day and you said something along the lines of talking about the waking and the dream state, it was so obvious that it's the body mechanism that comes. It wakes up and it feels like you've woken up out of the sleep, but it's actually just the bloody mind wakes up. And then awareness, the being, the beingness gets identified with that bloody mind and believes it's that set for existence.

Waking up, how is it that this attributeless one, that you can't find any phenomenal attributes to, can bring itself to believe itself to be either being or this body-mind as conditioning? And the role of the... what is this power of belief?

Yeah, belief. Repetitive exposure to conditioning, which is all part of the play. And then it's believing the thoughts that come through the mind that you're aware of, these thoughts. But you start to believe them because they're so repetitive.

So are you saying that if this power of belief was not here, there would be no pretending or identification or conditioning?

I haven't contemplated this, so I don't know if there's any other... apart from belief. That would also... maybe we can look now.

So right now, now, now, is there any identification?

Oh, there's some right now. If I didn't give you a moment to think about it, yeah, the identification...

Without a thought arising, would you be able to tell me what the identification was?

Yeah. Identification is feelings in the body arising, which are contractions. Some sort of contraction or feeling of being limited within this skin, plus thoughts. Feelings believed in and thoughts believed in that make the beingness feel like it's contracted into a body.

Yes. Oh, let's slow it down. So how do we believe a feeling? So the feeling will arise and then there'll be some sort of memory of that feeling causing some sort of discomfort.

Oh, the feeling arises. Yeah, the memory arises. Yeah.

And then belief that it's happening to... related belief that's arising. Just like there could be an arising of a candle, there could be an arising of a flower. So this flower is there and there's a memory of many flowers. So can we get belief if that flower is you? You don't believe it. Suppose this is what is arising inside you, okay? And then memories of all the flowers. Oh God, can you believe the thought? Not easy. So the object in itself, does it have... can you believe an object by itself without the label? The label has to be a thought. So just the arising of a feeling is just like the arising of some sensation. But the sensation itself, without even labeling it, cannot get our belief and therefore cannot become part of our egoic identity, you see. So it could be the most constricted sensation; it could feel like all of our life energy is getting constricted. But without any interpretation, what would happen to it? It would just be watched. So as it is just witnessed, there is no identification with it. For identification to happen, there has to be at least a label, at least the thought, you see. So therefore, if you were to not identify, what would we have to do?

I know the answer, no, what you would say, which is not to believe your next thought. I'm looking fresh, but I know from experience that it's not like that. It's either the energy is there to come and believe it or the energy doesn't arise for that belief.

Yes. So the energy, is it separate from what we call the power of belief? This energy of belief is what is the same as what we call the power of belief. I can see something is wriggling, something is trying to wriggle now, but it's watched from a space as awareness. But there's something here that's just wanting to just get away now. Yeah, because some things... is that because of this energetic movement, either belief goes or it doesn't go? What I am saying is that this energetic movement and separately that which we call the power of belief, are you referring to the same power of belief as this movement of belief?

I can't hear your words, sorry.

Do you remember what was said last? How can you... let me remind you. You said that when a thought comes, you see, the way not to get identified with it was not to believe it. But you say that, 'I don't see it that way actually. I see that this energetic movement of belief, it goes to it or not.' Is it? So I said, is this energetic movement of belief not the same as what we call the power of belief? Is there a power of belief and also this energetic? It's the same, the same. So this power of belief is... you're saying it is just an arising. There's actually no power that is in your control as consciousness, yeah, to believe or not to believe. That's what you see. So if I was to say, a thought came to you that, 'Hey, oh no, the sun suddenly turned green,' did you believe it? Actually, I'd probably check for some odd reason. If the thought was that you're actually right now in Timbuktu, do you believe it? So this is the power of belief or disbelief. If it was completely random, then it would be a...

This power of belief, is it you're saying it's just an arising? There's actually no power that is in your control as consciousness, yeah, to believe or not to believe? That's what you see. So if I was to say, or the thought came to you that, 'Hey, the sun suddenly turned green,' did you believe it? Actually, I'd probably check for some odd reason. If the thought was that you're actually right now in Timbuktu, do you believe it? So this is the power of belief or disbelief. If it was completely random, then it would be a coin toss whether you would believe this thought or not, you see?

As the non-existent individual, obviously you don't have any power whatsoever. But as this consciousness itself, you see, which is playing this game of pretending and not pretending, there is this seeming choice to not believe your next thought. There comes a point where you are able to say that even all of this is just happening on its own. To distinguish, you would say this: one is when you're lamenting as a person. He's lamenting as this person, 'But I have no control over my belief, what am I to do?' you see? At that time, I will tell you that, no, you do have that power because you are not this person; you are consciousness. This power of belief completely belongs to you.

Then there is a second way of saying this where you would say that, yes, this is just part of my play, and there's belief which is going to the personal identity and it is getting nourishment from the personal identity, and truly I am not concerned about it at all. So, is this the way you're saying it, or is it the first way?

No, it has to be said that it's the latter. But then there is really, after these openings where the energy contracts and at some point there is belief in the person, and then there's that, 'Oh, what can I do?' And that thought is believed: 'What can I do?'

That you could not believe: 'What can I do?' yeah. 'Oh, what choice do I have right now?' Then you make the choice to not believe the next time, and you can do it, yeah. Then the sense of doership itself is not there and it is operating from the witnessing perspective. I'm not the knowable at all. But it's seen that it's okay. So, 'Don't believe your next thought' is a pointing which will extinguish the sense of doership, actually, you see?

Because we need something... there's the whole story in India where the elephant trainers, you see, the elephants are very troublesome because when they walk in the market, then they disrupt everything. They pick an apple from here, bananas from here, disrupt everything when they walk. So what did the elephant trainer do? He makes them hold a stick in their trunk. When he's holding the stick in his trunk, then he remains steady; he doesn't go here and there, you see? So in the same way, the need to perceive ourselves as the doer of something is one of the strongest legs of a separate identity. So this sense of doership gets extinguished when it is turned on to itself. So when we say 'Don't believe your next thought,' that includes 'What should I do next?'

So in this way, as we are not believing our thoughts, allowing them to come and go, you will find that this doer perspective starts dissolving more and more. Then there comes a point and you say that there is nothing, truly nothing to do, you see? And if there is truly nothing to do, you find it very, very, very difficult actually to identify as a person. So I've spoken recently about these two Ds: one is doership and second is desire. These are the strongest two legs of the ego.

How does the desire maneuver manifest? Not necessarily just in our, 'Okay, I desire this, I desire that.' I desire freedom, not necessarily just in the big ways, but in every situation that we walk into. Mostly for humanity, it is just checking this question: 'What's in it for me? What's in it for me? What's in it for me?' This is the most basic form of desire. Everything it comes into, it says, 'What's in it for me? What about me? What's in it for me? What about me?' So as you are not giving belief to these thoughts, you find that this doership gets extinguished and this desire gets lighter and lighter.

And you will find that many of the thoughts that most people seem to be believing right now are not given belief, but some still get you, you see? Which are these? These are the ones that have got a lot of nourishment from us in the past. You believe that which you believed yourself to be in the past. When that comes up, something still rushes for believing that. So the better way then, rather than trying to resist those, is to find out: who is this one, you see, who is now constricted, for example? So there can be the sense that 'I am now constricted,' but is this really true? Can it ever be true? It cannot be, because it's awareness, which we are not able to find in space at all. It can never expand or constrict, isn't it?

So that which is constricted cannot be 'I'. And as you see this, that the other end, as I remain unconstricted, then all these energetic movements can come and go, but you are not identifying with it. You see this often. Then even when the thought comes that, 'Yes, I'm getting constricted again,' it will not hold on to you because you know it's not possible. I think these deep identifications, they can be inquired into. So there can still be an idea that 'I will be completely free when this constriction stops happening,' yeah. But that is not true, because as awareness, you are never bound, actually. The seeing of this is the recognition of your freedom.

I also come to see that there was this idea playing out that in the time-bound part of the play, all of these constrictions and energies and everything, that they would all be gone. And that was like waiting for them to all disappear. But actually it's okay though, even if they come back. It's not enjoyable, some of them obviously, but now that there's not this waiting for them to all be wiped clean, it seems like the goal has been removed. So therefore I'm just here with whatever comes. But that doesn't mean that identification isn't, you know...

Yes, but when you use this recognition itself, it makes the identification lighter. So it could be anything. Whatever it is in your case, for you it could be this energetic constriction; for someone else it could be some other identity: the work identity, security identity, relationship identity. All of these are basically beliefs that we have that something is happening to me. 'I am so-and-so, this is happening to me.' And then when you see that this game doesn't have any reality, then everything is allowed to happen. Then we are not picking and choosing our experiences; then everything is open to experiencing. So you don't mind if a constriction comes or an expansion comes. There can be a sense of that constricted something expands, you see? How this even is, is also just seen. So that 'I' that sees is not touched by any of this phenomenal movement. That's how we started, isn't it? That which has no phenomenal attributes cannot be affected by a phenomenal movement, isn't it?

Okay. So for now, show me the way. I cannot suffer as a person but can experience pain and emotional discomfort?

Yes, yes, that is part of the masala of life. Because if it does not... if everything was just sweet, sweet, sweet, we would not appreciate the taste of sweet at all. I don't feel that there's anyone who does in the experience game any other greater sufferer. So you yourself made this nice distinction, this nice image which said that if there is... the minute you find the pinch of suffering, it means there is some attachment, yes.

So what is attachment? Hey, that's good. I'm not very intellectual about it. I'm not asking for him to like to answer. Attachment seems to be a belief in a 'me' or a belief that something is mine or belongs to me.

Exactly, isn't it? This sense that something is mine implies that I am believing that there is a 'me', and this itself is cause for trouble.

But still there's like, when I look and say, like, what the word 'me' does, or when I think about attachment... so there's an image arising of, say, something belonging to me. Like, say, okay, this ring is not a good example because I don't really care about it, but yeah, like the word 'mine' or 'me', it has a vibration or frequency of what I care about. Yeah, but that is seen, that that contraction of it over 'me' is still experienced.

Yeah, well, what happens when you hear the word 'me' or like, say, my name for example? If something says my name is here, there's an immediate like... like the body responds automatically to like, whatever. And even if someone says a word that sounds like Xia, that's not like 'see ya', yes, something that there's an immediate bodily reaction to it. And it seems like for that split second the identity just snaps back into play until there's like a natural noticing of that was just an energy arising within me. So I see Xia, then it just happened. Oh yeah, what I... I don't know, it's like just a magnet, just an energy. It was just an energy, but then I'm going to say within this body, but it was, yeah, this experience.

Yeah, so what is the identification? That the energy was a 'me'? It was a belief in 'me-ness'. Is the arising of the energy identification? No. The labeling of it as 'me', the belief in it as 'me', yeah. And this 'me' came to the fore when my name was taken, yeah, is it? So if you don't even buy this interpretation, yeah, then it's just energy itself arising and playing in my field, just like that. Yeah, well, that's nice. Thank you. We just see that some energy within me just automatically stands up to respond, but we don't say that, 'Oh, this was me and the me came back' or something like that, yeah. Okay, very natural. Someone calls, the body moves energetically like that. Yes, you want to know one's good.