Can The Self Be Experienced Differently? - 24th November 2017

I have no notion of—actually, I cannot relate. It's just—it just says nothing, nothing to me.

Because you said that there is something here which is incomplete. The seeing is incomplete. Suppose we didn't know this.

Yeah, I don't know if that is so, you know? I don't know if it is really like that. I just had to say something.

Do one experiment together. As we remain empty of notions—as we remain empty of notions, and then later we'll report about it whether it was complete or incomplete. Now, empty of notions, is there any completion or incompletion? Is there any separation? No. Is there any duality? No. Impossible. This is it. We cannot say because—I mean, how is it for you? I mean, also I think everyone must have these different qualities, must experience the quality of experience.

If it is a qualitative experience, then it is a function of attention. Yes? If it is a qualitative experience, then it has nothing—no bearing on the recognition of the Self. I don't know, I tried—I got that one point on that a little bit. And this is a very important point. This is where many people get stuck, you see. So it can feel like that as a recognition of the Self is happening, the quality of the experience has to change in some ways. But the quality of experience is dependent on something which is changing, which is attention. And attention is a byproduct of my existence. So this quality—if we had no idea about what the quality should be or what should be perceived or not perceived, without this, empty of any of these ideas, we see that—okay, then the simplest notion to use is that I exist. And this even by the sense of or not existent.

So you said, "I got that point at least." This, when the attention goes to—do you mean that these different qualities of experiencing yourself is in the Self?

Yes. So the way to look at this—there is a simple way to look at this—is go back to that cloud metaphor. So here's the cloud. In the cloud, I don't know, you see a cloud and you can get any shape in that cloud. So you can feel like, "Oh, that's a face." Is it a face or is it cloud? So someone can come and ask you, "So is there a face in the cloud?" That quality that we are calling the face for now. Yes? But is it? So some might say, "Yes, of course," because it is qualitatively experienced as the face. Another will say, "There is no face, it is only cloud which is being perceived as a face." Now, we can take it very slowly. Suppose you go out and you see this cloud. Yes? You see Satguru Ji's face. You see like, "This is a sign from God, Satguru Ji is looking at me." So someone comes and says, "Is there really a face in the cloud?" "Yes, I see Satguru Ji in the cloud." So the qualitative experience is that you see it. Yes? But in actuality, there is no separate substance called face. It is just the cloud itself, you see? It is not that there is a cloud and now a new substance has come which is forming the face. It is just the shape of the cloud in a certain way which is appearing like a face.

So let's come back to my experience. The experiencing and the experiencing of this "I am not of this world, I'm just not of this world."

Yes. That which is not of this world remains untouched by anything that might be happening in the qualitative experience. The Self remains untouched. Now, empty of notion, is this very apparent? Or it has to be looked for? There is no shape. Yes? So as we are empty of notion, then does the fact that my quality-less Self is independent of whatever might be with qualities—does that have to be looked into or it is completely apparent?

It's completely apparent, yes.

You see? So it is completely apparent. The recognition of the Self is completely apparent when we are empty of all notions. Is it? And then you see that—that's why I asked you—is there any separation in that? Empty of notion, is there any separation between that with quality and no quality? No. That's how you start to look at it. It is one cloud, but qualitatively the face would be seen once I start to look at it in that way using my attention. It's like it continues to be the hand, but I do this. So this difference in the way you can say how attention is using—the attention moving is the classic, so to say. From my experience, it seems that when the attention is more inside, the witnessing is more in the flow. I'm more—when the attention is more in here, it's just—it's not so apparent.

So let me—okay, let me take a couple of minutes on this. For me actually—and this will be even different from how Satguru Ji is using the term—but hearing your empty business, for me that signifies the Self. For me, it signifies the Self which includes both the dynamic aspect and the non-dynamic aspect, which is that which is, is the Self. Now, this Self has the qualitative aspect which we call beingness or consciousness, and it has the non-phenomenal, non-qualitative aspect which we call awareness. So this is what it translates to from my insight when I hear Satguru Ji speak of the isness. Now, this might be different for all of you. You might feel it is beingness or you might feel it is the Self, but that is irrespective. That is the thing, the concept, is it? So if you look at this, that which is as the Self, and then you see that there is that which is brought to the attention of the Self through the movement of attention itself. Only that which attention falls on is perceived, is it? Yes. So when we are talking about the qualitative experience, we are talking about that quality on which attention is falling. Now, when we look at the non-phenomenal aspect of the Self, we find that even to say attention is not valid there because it is like the string has come back completely home. So that which was seeming moving towards is now not separated from this non-phenomenality. Therefore, we can't even say that there is something like attention. So the recognition of the non-phenomenal Self, the unchanging, the Absolute, is independent of the movement of attention. Are you with me? Yeah. So this is independent of attention.

Then what is the most primal object of our attention? The most primal object of our attention is the sense of existence or beingness. This is where you can see it is like a primal quality, existence is coming to play. So the feeling of the face arising in the cloud—the cloud will remain the cloud only, but this sense of "I am" as beingness, existence, has come. So when Maharaj can say, "I just kept my attention on the sense of being and the truth became apparent," this is the most primary, the most primal object on which attention can go. Now, our experience is that as being, then the world arises with that. Then all these concepts of qualitative distinction start to arise. With this primary quality of being, then all of this—pleasure and pain, all these qualitative positions—they start to arise. This world is full of qualities. But did anything happen to that Self without the movement of attention? Now what happens is that we completely have become this limited—

The most primary, the most primal object on which attention can go now, our experience is that as Being. Then the world arises with that. Then all these concepts of qualitative distinction start to arise with this primary quality of Being. Then all of this—pleasure and pain, all these qualitative positions—they start to arrive. This world is full of qualities. But did anything happen to that Self without the way of attention? Now what happens is that we have completely become this limited identity. But as we are simply empty of notions, which is the natural gift of this moment to all of us, you see that nothing has changed. No matter which qualities might seem to be appearing, it is totally with you only.

And this one thing, this, you know, in the witnessing, that the attention is not... it's not that anymore. But that is... Rumi always says this, he has this quote of someone like, you know, with this door which is going outside and inside, and between that my life is moving. And I would say it is like this, you know? And also the attention is... even the attention makes no sense in the Absolute anymore. It's just... but in a way, on the way to that, the attention is moving inside and then it is gone. You know what I mean? And this is what, in the experience of it, the experience is somehow here. The mind makes something out of it in a way I cannot say, you know? It's so subtle that we just had to speak it out.

And the one that can be concerned about the quality of the experience has no control over the movement of attention. Is it so? Attention works in coordination, you see, with Consciousness. And all of these, again, are not just theoretical distinctions that we are making, or just conceptual distinctions we are making where actually no distinction has happened. But since we are talking about something which is apparent, so we can say that attention is moving in coordination with Consciousness, and Consciousness is moving it to whatever it wants to experience for itself. Now, the one who wants a particular experience or is wondering whether freedom is this experience or that experience, that one has no play in the movement of attention, you see?

So then you will start to see that whether the quality of the experience is full of pain, full of anger, full of all of these things arising, or the quality of the experience is peace, bliss, no pain, pleasure—as you remain motionless, you will see that it makes no difference to the Self. It makes no difference to you. So there must not be a benchmark about the quality of the experience, because that is not a valid benchmark. So you said, 'How is it for you?' For me, it is the same as it is for you. The only thing which is missing is the lack of belief in the idea of 'me,' the idea of 'fortunate for me getting it.' All these I am not concerned about, but the quality of the experience is the same.

So there must be... I can say about the quality of the experience is that as belief has returned from these notions, even attention gets withdrawn from them automatically. You don't have to work hard for it. And as attention is withdrawn from the mental sphere, then you find that if there is a qualitative change that has happened, it is that the feeling, the seeming of vibrancy in the phenomenal tasting of things, that seems to have gone up. Because you know this, that attention is used up into many things. If I say, 'Think of a green-colored tree, imagine a green-colored tree,' and bring your attention there, and also keep your attention on my words, one of them will start to become blurry because attention is limited, you see?

So as attention has got automatically withdrawn from the mental notions, you find that more attention is available for the tasting of these phenomenal appearances. And therefore, this phenomenal appearance seems much more vivid and full of light compared to how it used to. Qualitatively, I can say these differences happen, but that has only happened because attention does not spend too much time on this point in the sphere of these mental notions.

You know, I don't have to feel right now that something got the answers I have, but I feel so... this experience what I have right now, but in the witnessing, and really, and when really I just totally gone, and when it is so obvious that this world is you are just... no, but I have no words for this experience. I know it is so... it, I would say, it is so beyond everything. And but my feeling is somehow that something took this experience out and made, you know, made two out of it. I can, you know, I feel it and I know this is not true, but I cannot do anything about it. You know, there is a 'me' somehow here which is just not claiming, I would not say claiming, but something is going on yet.

You know this, that in reality two never got made, isn't it? It is just that the concept of separation was believed. But the good news is that whatever got believed is gone now. All of this which naturally we have forgotten, we have to work towards bringing it back. As we can see, starting to ask the question, you can see that is starting to bring it back. So what was the... so we leave that and we let all notions just come and go. Did you see any qualitative, this is the word, or negative distinction? Even matter, nothing was lost there because we are getting the experience. Something more was lost? The powers of perception are normally functioning, and that which witnesses even perception.

So much concepts are coming up now. Now I can feel how something wants to hold on to this something, whatever. And when you're talking just before, you know, it's just where it gets really uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable, really, that like the body is getting teared apart here. And so I know at least that I'm not... but I know, you know, I cannot really let go just like this. This is really something which...

Because what you said first, then what you said second contradicted what you said first. You said, 'Forget about it,' and then you said, 'I know I can't just let it go.' So don't know this, because knowing this is not being any of this. Because when we don't really know, it is just a confirmation that we are taking. We don't know. You might say, 'I know this,' and then you might have actually let go of it forever. And if I ask you, 'What can't you let go of?' you might never remember that, you see? It is completely possible for it to happen like that. So better when, even if you make the most humble conclusion about ourselves, we know that we are not speaking the truth about the Self. It is a conclusion about the imaginary.

You know, I feel it when it is like this, but actually I need this conversation, you know? I just... I'm just...